How does one evaluate avant garde music?

[Occasional Sage]

I've just been introduced to (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/stilling-you-softly/Content?oid=1162890) the music (http://sokaistilhed.com/listen.html) of Sokai Stilhed. It's evocative, and haunting, but I've never heard anything even remotely like it. I've had her eponymous album on repeat all day and am enthralled!

My issue, such as it is, is this: how do I tell if it's GOOD or not? Other than her voice, I don't know what objective standards to apply to this music. I'm not sure that it matters too much in this specific case, since I'll love it anyway, but if I delve more into the genre I want to be able to distinguish quality from... not.

[Adlan]

Do you like it?


Thats the only criterion worth considering.

[Anselm]

Objective standards of quality do not apply to any form of music. The purpose of music is to provoke emotions in the listener, and thus it is inherently subjective: clearly a piece of music does not inspire the same emotions in everyone. You may be aware of established opinions within other genres, but they are not objective -- you're not wrong if you disagree with them.

You can learn to conform to the tastes of others, but why bother? If it's music you're after, Adlan's criterion is the only one that matters. If others turn out to think what you happen to like is worthless tripe, why should that matter to you?

Experimental art is--to me, at least--all about breaking rules and expectations. Asking for an objective standard against which it can be judged seems like missing the point entirely, because much of the point is precisely a rebellion against just that sort of rigidly structured art. (I won't say you're missing the point of the music, though, because you obviously aren't, if you're enthralled by it.)

[Boo]

It's bad if I don't like it. That's all you will ever need to know. As I have yet to tell you my opinion you will forever be trapped not knowing whether it is bad or good.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAA!

[Occasional Sage]

I guess my question isn't so much about evaluating THIS album, as future albums. Sokai can be as good or bad as she is and I'll still like her; I'm thinking more about how to find more musicians later.

For instance with classical music it's pretty clear to me when the cellist is out of tune, or the horns enter late in the third movement, or whatever else: the music is just not well performed. Likewise a bad guitar in a rock band, et cetera.

Without those cues though, I might listen to five albums by one group thinking that the first four just aren't to my taste, until realizing that I don't like them because they're just bad.

Is there really not a way to judge musical skill in this?

[TheBST]

For instance with classical music it's pretty clear to me when the cellist is out of tune, or the horns enter late in the third movement, or whatever else: the music is just not well performed. Likewise a bad guitar in a rock band, et cetera.

Well that's a matter of the song's execution rather than it's overall quality as a piece. A guitarist, for example, with quite limited technical skills can still be a fantastic songwriter (Dylan, Strummer, etc.)

There are no real increments of quality, but there are two rough ways I use:

-Success of vision: Did the band achieve what it set out to do artistically?
-Innovation: Did they break some new ground on the way?

[Moff Chumley]

The BST has it.

In the world of avant-guard music, there are two goals: be original conceptually and sonically, and produce something thought provoking. The baseline standards I hold avant guard music to are Robert Fripp's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp9--5btAX0) soundscapes and Pendulum Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhVC9_e2hzQ) by Steve Reich.

BTW, I've never heard anything like pendulum music in my life. I can't decide if it's brilliant or rubish, but that's the way of this type of music.

[DomaDoma]

So, I'm listening to the Diasun track, and... anyone care to play it backwards? It sounds a lot like reversed vocals to me, but I don't have a mic with which to test it on Sound Recorder.

[Occasional Sage]

Well that's a matter of the song's execution rather than it's overall quality as a piece. A guitarist, for example, with quite limited technical skills can still be a fantastic songwriter (Dylan, Strummer, etc.)

There are no real increments of quality, but there are two rough ways I use:

-Success of vision: Did the band achieve what it set out to do artistically?
-Innovation: Did they break some new ground on the way?


That sounds like a better way to phrase what I'm wanting to ask, yes. I'd say the vision is there, but I don't know Item A about the genre so as for innovation, I got nothin'.



The BST has it.

In the world of avant-guard music, there are two goals: be original conceptually and sonically, and produce something thought provoking. The baseline standards I hold avant guard music to are Robert Fripp's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp9--5btAX0) soundscapes and Pendulum Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhVC9_e2hzQ) by Steve Reich.

BTW, I've never heard anything like pendulum music in my life. I can't decide if it's brilliant or rubish, but that's the way of this type of music.

A lot of her stuff is tweaked vocals, so I'd buy Diasun being backmasked very easily.

I think her stuff is brilliant, personally. Rubbish or not... who knows?

Re: Pendulum Music... I'm not even sure what's going on. It was quite straightforward until about 1:40, when the "percusion-y" stuff started. I thought at first that they were simply responding to each others' proximity, but it seems now that the tones are based on proximity and relative speed?

I'm... kinda floored. I don't like it, but I don't know whether it's good or not! 5:45 is where I've got to stop.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm pretty sure they're feeding back based on what every amp is outputting, but I haven't a clue.

[Egiam]

Don't listen to critics. Think like John Cleese on wine (Wine for the Confused). Never let anyone tell you what's better. If you enjoy it and animals are not harmed in it's creation (hitting mice for squeaks), its good.

[Jorkens]

Never let anyone tell you what's better. If you enjoy it and animals are not harmed in it's creation (hitting mice for squeaks), its good.
I kind of agree, but a lot of the time, listening to people who've been listening to and enjoying stuff for longer than you can open you up to new ways of appreciating it. Listening to music where you know the hows and whys of it can often just be more interesting and more enjoyable than listening to it in a vacuum. And sometimes that has the side effect that stuff you previously thought was cool seems less interesting by comparison.

[Occasional Sage]

I kind of agree, but a lot of the time, listening to people who've been listening to and enjoying stuff for longer than you can open you up to new ways of appreciating it. Listening to music where you know the hows and whys of it can often just be more interesting and more enjoyable than listening to it in a vacuum. And sometimes that has the side effect that stuff you previously thought was cool seems less interesting by comparison.

I think we're on the same page here.

[Rutskarn]

I'mma gonna have to side with the majority on this one.

Looking for objective standards with which to grade art is like looking for universal meaning. Whether or not it even exists is up to debate.