Need help from experienced DM's

[Choco]

So I am next in line to DM for our gaming group in the near future (current DM wants time as a player, understandable) but I have a bunch of issues that I definitely need some advice on from y'all more experienced folk:

1.) I plan on using D&D 3.5 rules, in a homebrew setting that is almost a bastardized version of Dark Sun (dying world, no "true" gods, etc.) and Eberron (high magic/borderline steampunk in some areas). This alone doesn't pose any problems, but my plan to make there be no afterlife does (in this setting, life energy is "recycled" much like in FF7). It was my intention from the beginning to make death permanent, but permanent death in 3.5 rules poses A LOT of problems I am now noticing as I am piecing my campaign together. Problems such as:
a.) "Save or Die" attacks will either have to be completely removed or made exceptionally rare. (I don't want to run a Cthulhu game here....)
b.) The DC of some other monsters will likely have to be increased since I know a lot of them consider dead party members simply being resurrected.
c.) Some leniency may have to be given in regards to massive damage and negative hitpoints.
d.) Anything else in the rules that was ever influenced by the creators knowing the players can find a way to come back to life...
So basically I am asking for advice on how to modify the D&D 3.5 rules to accommodate for making death permanent. How do the other game systems that have permadeath handle it? (the game system has to be D&D 3.5 by the way, as those are the only books everyone in my group has and at least 3 of the 5 others would be completely unwilling to move to another system).

2.) HOW, oh HOW do I create a game for so many play style preferences? One guy (current DM) likes to do heavy RP, one guy likes to fight, the 2 girls like to go and talk to every single minor NPC in a 10000 person town and generally occupy themselves with everything BUT the issues at hand, and the last guy seems cool with anything. Even this would normally not be an issue, and our current DM is handling it in the way I would have tried (party splits up in town, DM switches from player to player every couple of minutes, etc.) but this often leads to the other players being bored when it is not their turn. So the question here is do any of y'all know of a way I can satisfy everyone without having the others bored cause they are not doing anything? I am starting to think my only option will be to handle party split-ups by email between sessions...

3.) How do I implement puzzles into the game? Our current DM has completely removed puzzles of any kind from his game because of the disaster his last attempt at having a puzzle turned out to be. It was an awesome puzzle, but while 3 of the 5 of us realized that we did not yet have the information (OR parts..) we need to solve it and wanted to move on, the other 2 WOULD NOT BUDGE and wasted a few hours trying random junk and guessing to try to solve the puzzle that the DM had intended to just be a passing mention for now. This annoyed the rest of us who wanted to move on with the game, but we were in a good mood so we let them have their way and just played some video games in the mean time. The 2 that obviously enjoyed the last puzzle want more now, and I don't know how he is going to handle that. The only way I can think of to implement a puzzle and make everyone happy is to do it during combat (locked in a room, monsters spawn to replace every one killed, need to pull some levers to get out, every time a lever is pulled a monster spawns as well, etc.)

4.) No. 3 leads right into 4 conveniently... those same 2 that wasted all that time on the puzzle it was to early for us to solve also are the ones that insist on always trying to get "creative". That itself is not bad, and in fact where almost all our fond RP memories come from, but when every single random encounter they spend half an hour during each one of their turns in combat thinking of creative ways to kill 5 low level kobolds when we are a lvl 6 party, and then getting annoyed when the rest of us just want to hurry up and beat them to death the old fashioned way, it gets annoying fast. Giving everyone a maximum of one minute to take their turn (at least during easy-moderate CR encounters) should fix this, but what do y'all think?

K that was longer than I expected, but those are the major hurdles I have to overcome when writing my campaign. Any help will be appreciated!

[Satyr]

"Save or Die" attacks will either have to be completely removed or made exceptionally rare. (I don't want to run a Cthulhu game here....)

You can treat such effects as attacks that reduce the victim's HP to 0, so that they are dying, but not automatically dead.


Some leniency may have to be given in regards to massive damage and negative hitpoints.

Massive damage can easily be ignored. The maximum of negative hitpoints can be made equal to the character's constitution score. I would also recommend to use the Armor As Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) rules and perhaps always give PCs the maximum possible Hitpoints.


Anything else in the rules that was ever influenced by the creators knowing the players can find a way to come back to life...

As a rule of thumb, don't kill characters outright, but set them to 0 HP instead, so that they are slowly dying and death can be stopped.



HOW, oh HOW do I create a game for so many play style preferences? One guy (current DM) likes to do heavy RP, one guy likes to fight, the 2 girls like to go and talk to every single minor NPC in a 10000 person town and generally occupy themselves with everything BUT the issues at hand, and the last guy seems cool with anything.

Heavy combats and roleplaying does not need to conflict, as long as there are good reasons for the combats and often enough alternative solutions. The search for social contact and interaction can be solved through more influence of the players on the plot (just let the players decide how their environment interacts with them in calm, quite situations and only drop in important information if necessary or take over the control if this freedom is abused). This will also reduce the length of such an interplay, when the player just report themselves what they have done with whom in town.

[Choco]

Ah cool, thanks for the Armor as Damage Reduction link, I think I will end up using that.

As for having SoD attacks reduce to 0 HP, that is also better than my previous idea of having them paralyze the player or the like instead, making them a helpless target. I think I will have SoD attacks reduce them to -1 HP and unconscious, that should be "punishing" enough...

[RebelRogue]

Satyr's ideas sound fine to me. Also, you may consider people dying at -(9+Level) instead of the normal -10. I'd also consider allowing the Revivification spell (it sort of makes sense that you have that final chance at saving the life essense before it returns to the Lifestream).

[Choco]

Satyr's ideas sound fine to me. Also, you may consider people dying at -(9+Level) instead of the normal -10. I'd also consider allowing the Revivification spell (it sort of makes sense that you have that final chance at saving the life essense before it returns to the Lifestream).

Sweet, I think I'll do both of those. I am expecting a few deaths early on while the players adjust to actually having to value their lives in combat for once, so perhaps this will allow them a few chances!

[Raum]

So basically I am asking for advice on how to modify the D&D 3.5 rules to accommodate for making death permanent. How do the other game systems that have permadeath handle it? (the game system has to be D&D 3.5 by the way, as those are the only books everyone in my group has and at least 3 of the 5 others would be completely unwilling to move to another system).The easiest way is probably to use Fate points with a few extra powers...spend one to end up unconscious instead of dead or something similar.


2.) HOW, oh HOW do I create a game for so many play style preferences? One guy (current DM) likes to do heavy RP, one guy likes to fight, the 2 girls like to go and talk to every single minor NPC in a 10000 person town and generally occupy themselves with everything BUT the issues at hand, and the last guy seems cool with anything. Even this would normally not be an issue, and our current DM is handling it in the way I would have tried (party splits up in town, DM switches from player to player every couple of minutes, etc.) but this often leads to the other players being bored when it is not their turn. So the question here is do any of y'all know of a way I can satisfy everyone without having the others bored cause they are not doing anything? I am starting to think my only option will be to handle party split-ups by email between sessions...When it comes to RP, combat, etc try to include at least a little of each element you know someone likes in each session. Break up a combat session with an opponent trying to negotiate his way out, break up a political RP session with a quick assassination attempt, etc.

When it comes to splitting up in town you can get surprising results by giving those going off on side quests some amount of control over that portion of the plot. Let them tell you what they did and what the results were.


3.) How do I implement puzzles into the game? I highly recommend two things, first make your puzzles portable so they don't hold everyone up when only a couple are interested. This also allows players to work on them between sessions. Second don't make puzzles central to your plot. It's less derailing to your plot when they don't solve the puzzle that way. Oh, always remember - unless you're allowing a roll to solve them, puzzles are aimed at players not characters. And not all players are interested in adding puzzles to their role playing.


4.) No. 3 leads right into 4 conveniently... those same 2 that wasted all that time on the puzzle it was to early for us to solve also are the ones that insist on always trying to get "creative". That itself is not bad, and in fact where almost all our fond RP memories come from, but when every single random encounter they spend half an hour during each one of their turns in combat thinking of creative ways to kill 5 low level kobolds when we are a lvl 6 party, and then getting annoyed when the rest of us just want to hurry up and beat them to death the old fashioned way, it gets annoying fast. Giving everyone a maximum of one minute to take their turn (at least during easy-moderate CR encounters) should fix this, but what do y'all think?This is common in my experience.

[BRC]

The above is all good advice. However, even if they are done, a player is still only one or two unlucky rolls away from death. DnD is built with the assumption that death is an inconvienience.
So what I would do, is not let the players die. Now, of course, not constantly, if Player A keeps charging headlong into the dragons lair without waiting for backup, he's going to roast. But a player who get's a single run of bad luck shouldn't be penalized by having their character gone forever.

However, you can't tell your players you are doing this. If they know you are sparing them, they will think "Hmm, do I attack or do I chug a healing potion. Ah well, this is a minor fight and I just got unlucky getting crit like that. The DM will spare me". You want them to think "Uh oh, my HP is getting low, I better hide behind that rock and chug a healing potion".

So what you do is say "Alright, because this system is designed for ressurections, if one of you dies, I'm going to make somthing called a Destiny check, which has a chance of sparing you. But the more you die, the higher your Destiny check DC gets." Then, if one of them dies, decide whether or not to spare them, and make a hidden roll. The roll is just for show, announce that they either failed or succeeded their destiny check. Then make a check mark in your notes (The DM making a checkmark in their notes is second only to the DM smiling quietly to themselves in terms of things that make players sweat). Hopefully, you won't have to do this too often, and if you think the players are suspecting the Destiny check is a sham, have one of them fail it.

If you don't like the idea, make them fail it ALOT, this will increase the feeling it has a high DC. But even if you never intend for the PC's to succeed, if you use it from the start, and a situation comes up where you decide to spare a PC, you have the mechanism in place.

[Oracle_Hunter]

2.) HOW, oh HOW do I create a game for so many play style preferences? One guy (current DM) likes to do heavy RP, one guy likes to fight, the 2 girls like to go and talk to every single minor NPC in a 10000 person town and generally occupy themselves with everything BUT the issues at hand, and the last guy seems cool with anything. Even this would normally not be an issue, and our current DM is handling it in the way I would have tried (party splits up in town, DM switches from player to player every couple of minutes, etc.) but this often leads to the other players being bored when it is not their turn. So the question here is do any of y'all know of a way I can satisfy everyone without having the others bored cause they are not doing anything? I am starting to think my only option will be to handle party split-ups by email between sessions...

Curious. What exactly do the 2 girls do? Are they gathering information, getting a feel for the town, or just hanging out? Whatever they do, make it plot-relevant by throwing in a plot hook, NPC, or clue that they have to deal with.

In any case, you just need to encourage the PCs to go out in groups; this results in less "bored people" per outing. A couple of scares when the party weakling gets roughed up at a tavern or jumped by some cutpurses will result in the PCs splitting up less dramatically. In all honesty, I don't see why they'd split up so much - everyone except McKillsalot can satisfy their urges by going together.

Oh, and don't switch randomly. Play out a scene and, when it reaches a good stopping point, switch. Hopefully your fellow PCs can be somewhat interested in the plot-relevant stuff that is going on with another group.

[magellan]

Giving everyone a maximum of one minute to take their turn (at least during easy-moderate CR encounters) should fix this, but what do y'all think?

1 Minute? That is about 50 seconds longer than i would recommend (for hard encounters) Fore easy encounters its your turn= your turn. But you do 2 rounds.

Example:
Hard encoutner "X, your turn" (silent countdown in your head) 10 9 8 7 6 (Go vocal "5 4 3 2 1" No action taken? next player. after that those who havent come up with something to do get one more chance, or their turn is forfeit. In easy encounters you do the same, just without the countdown. Player cant tell you what he wants to do right away? next one. second chance at the end of the turn

Puzzles: the bad thing about puzzles is that they have solutions. It is not your job coming up with that, so i tend to make problems. The solution is the players job. I recommend getting out of the video game mindset. There is no "This is a puzzle now" minigame.

[BobVosh]

1.) Time delay. Takes a person a week to be absorbed. Start carting your 5k diamonds, or always have the teleport ready.

2.) Copy your old DM. Basically have a little of each, they will each pick and choose. Really no way to force each to do what the other wants.

3.) Unless the party wants to, don't. If it is a flavor/roleplay thing, present a puzzle but allow a quick intelligence roll to solve it if it begins to take a while.

4.) Talk to them. Smack em for taking too long. Classical conditioning is a wonderous tool.

[Graymayre]

Perhaps when the first PC dies, if the group wishes too, they can go on a quest to find someway to bring him back. If you do this, the quest needs to be extremely long and arduous to keep everyone under the sun (pun intended) from ressurecting people.

By the way, what about reincarnate in this Dark Sun-ish world?

[Choco]

Very nice suggestions all of ya, thanks!

They are definitely making this phase of planning much easier.


Curious. What exactly do the 2 girls do? Are they gathering information, getting a feel for the town, or just hanging out? Whatever they do, make it plot-relevant by throwing in a plot hook, NPC, or clue that they have to deal with.

They usually just hanging out. The DM already does what you suggest and throws them plot hooks and side quests, and they bite, but we are currently on one of those "OMG it's the end of the world in X amount of time we gotta hurry and save it!" kinda quests, so realistically we should be kinda occupied. They at least are playing their characters well enough... one of them is impulsive to the extreme, the other is her friend and follows along. They are not playing the game wrong by any means, just the rest of the group, players and characters, want to move on the main story and get impatient during these outings.


Perhaps when the first PC dies, if the group wishes too, they can go on a quest to find someway to bring him back. If you do this, the quest needs to be extremely long and arduous to keep everyone under the sun (pun intended) from ressurecting people.

Hmm.... I will consider using a system similar to the fate points or destiny checks suggested by Raum and BRC to prevent non-stupidity related deaths in the first place, and am strongly considering implementing your suggestion, but ONLY if they died epically at a boss or something (as a reward for very good RP, smart thinking, heroic sacrifice, etc.). If the char died cause s/he thought it was a good idea to charge the huge black dragon that was doing nothing but sleeping next to the dungeon they were visiting, then I will probably let nature take it's course :P


By the way, what about reincarnate in this Dark Sun-ish world?

Don't plan on reincarnation in the traditional sense. When you die, your spirit just rejoins the lifestream and merges with the collective basically as part of a bigger soul, and when new life is born fragments of this larger soul are given to it.

[UserClone]

I hate save-or-dies. I like to put the player character or NPC who is hit by one at (0-1d10) hp, that way there's only a 10% chance of insta-death, but old-skool players who insist on it still have their chance of dying with no chance at recovery.

[Oracle_Hunter]

They usually just hanging out. The DM already does what you suggest and throws them plot hooks and side quests, and they bite, but we are currently on one of those "OMG it's the end of the world in X amount of time we gotta hurry and save it!" kinda quests, so realistically we should be kinda occupied. They at least are playing their characters well enough... one of them is impulsive to the extreme, the other is her friend and follows along. They are not playing the game wrong by any means, just the rest of the group, players and characters, want to move on the main story and get impatient during these outings.

Then encourage them to "hang out" with one of the other characters. If you can get 3 of 5 people in one place, then you can have a meaningful encounter. If I were in this party, I'd attach the "I dunno" guy to them to keep an eye on the pair.