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sonofzeal
2009-03-21, 07:28 PM
(Repost from here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0). Initial discussion here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3800.0).)

Rating PrCs is difficult. It's obvious that some provide too much and some provide too little, but which is which depends on a lot of factors - base class entry being the most obvious. Where the difference between two "logical entries" is huge, those entries can be listed separately (see Rainbow Servant), but just like for base classes, a single PrC can go up or down based on optimization skill, and we should focus on what we see as the "average" use. We should only list a PrC multiple times if the multiple entries are all simple and straightforward given the requirements, as anything else falls under the individual's optimization skill.

It's also difficult to categorize power. Soulbow certainly adds more to Soulknives than Mindbender does to Sorcerers, but I think most will agree that a high level Mindbender will still beat a Soulbow with both arms tied behind its back. Still, ranking them that way is merely repeating the obvious, that some base classes are better than other, down through the list of PrCs ad nauseum. That's neither helpful nor productive. Instead, it would make more sense to rate PrCs by how much advantage they give, over their "logical entries". In other words, a PrC for Soulknives is held to a different standard than a PrC for Sorcerers, and the grade tells you how strongly you should consider taking that PrC, assuming you're already working on a build that could qualify.

So for this, I'll be referring to Tiers and how the PrC changes them, but I'm aware that there's multiple Tier systems out there that differ in substantial ways, and that some of these gradings will put classes into places they just don't belong when taken literally. A Tier 3 with an "up one" PrC wouldn't necessarily be a Tier 2, and a Tier 1 with a "down two" PrC would probably still be better than most Tier 3 classes. There will also be classes that go off the top or bottom of the scale. The goal is merely to make it clear that an "up two" is better than an "up one", and that both are only in reference to the starting point as given by the "logical entry". To repeat: the ranking is not literal. It's just a guideline to help novice or intermediate players know where to start looking.

I hope to eventually have this guide cover all published PrCs, and I know I can't do that alone. I'll be needing as much assistance as possible going through various books. Don't worry too much if you're not a certified professional PrC-rater; nobody is, including myself, and there's always a review period where other people who may have more experience with specific classes can weigh in. In general, if you can convince me then I'll change it, and you can't convince me but other posters agree with you then I'll change it too. As a final note, none of the ratings are ever final, so don't worry about it too much.


Books included so far
Book of Exalted Deeds (ave: +0.182)
Book of Vile Darkness (ave: +0.647) - Samb
Champions of Ruin (ave: +0.0)- Tam_OConnor
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane - biznarf
Complete Divine
Complete Mage (ave: +0.545) - Surreal
Complete Psionic - Samb
Complete Scoundrel - Samb
Complete Warrior
Drow of the Underdark - Akalsaris
Dungeon Masters Guide (ave: -0.375)
Eberron Campaign Setting
Expanded Psionics Handbook (ave: +0.222)
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Expedition to the Deamonweb Pits - Zombieboots
Frostburn - tusk
Heroes of Horror (ave: +0.5)
Libris Mortis (ave: -1.0) - Salt_Crow
Lords of Madness (ave: +1)
Lost Empires of Faerun - Tam_OConnor
Magic of Incarnum - woodenbandman
Planar Handbook (ave: +0.0) - tusk
Player's Guide to Faerun (ave: -0.1) - Tam_OConnor
Races of Destiny (ave: +0.176) - tusk
Races of Eberron (ave: +0.625) - Salvonus
Races of Stone (ave: +0.467) - Surreal
Races of the Dragon (ave: +0.0) - tusk
Races of the Wild - CthulhuM and Sirek Inta
Sandstorm
Serpent Kingdoms (ave: -0.06) - Tam_OConnor
Stormwrack
Tome of Battle
Tome of Magic - jameswilliamogle
Unapproachable East (ave: +0.417) - Tam_OConnor
Underdark (ave: +0.333) - Tam_OConnor

Books still needed: Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, and Weapons of Legacy, plus any setting-specific 3.5 books we've missed.


Up Two or More Tiers. These PrCs improve the power of their entry classes dramatically, either by building on strengths or by adding powerful new ones. Expect characters with these to blow their single-classed peers out of the water (and possibly get DM-smote, depending on the base class's power).
Anarchic Initiate
Anima Mage
Champion of Gwynharwyf
Disciple of Disapater
Dweomerkeeper
Emissaries of Barachiel
Halruuan Elder
Hulking Hurler
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (unless your DM overrules Veils blocking Antimagic Fields)
Incantatrix (when combined with other metamagic cost reducers)
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required)
Moonspeaker (with Knowledge Devotion)
Necrocarnate (unless your DM limits what you can draw essentia from)
Planar Sheppard
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)
Runescarred Berserker
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)
Sentinel of Bharrai
Shadowcraft Mage
Soulbow
Soul Eater
Sublime Chord
Tainted Scholar
Telflammar Shadowlord
Thrallherd
Thrall of Juiblex
Ur-Priest
Void Disciple
Walker in the Waste
Warshaper (non-casting entry)


Up One Tier. These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance. Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.
Abjurant Champion
Abolisher
Acolyte of the Ego
Aglarondan Griffonrider
Annointed Knight
Arachnomancer
Arcane Heirophant
Ashworm Dragoon
Assassin
Atavist
Bear Warrior
Beloved of Valarian
Blackguard
Blade Bravo
Bloodclaw Master
Bloodhound
Breachgnome
Cabinet Trickster
Cavalier
Cavelord
Cancer Mage (broken with festering rage)
Celestial Mystic
Chaotician
Chameleon (an odd case by any standard)
Champion of Corellon Larethian
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Cragtop Archer
Daggerspell Shaper
Darkrunner
Death Delver
Deepwarden
Defender of Sealtiel
Demonwrecker
Dervish
Diabolist
Disciple of Amodeus
Disciple of Baalzebul
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Disciple of the Eye
Disciple of Thrym
Divine Crusader
Divine Oracle
Divine Prankster
Dragon Devotee (for non-casters)
Dragonmark Heir
Dread Fang of Lolth
Dread Pirate
Drow Judicator
Drunken Master
Earth Dreamer
Eldeen Ranger
Elemental Warrior
Elven High Mage
Enlightened Fist
Eternal Blade
Exotic Weapons Master
Eye of Horus-Re
Fatemaker (worse for bards)
Fatespinner (fifth level not recommended)
Fiend-Blooded
Fist of Raziel (Charging Smite paladin variant highly recommended)
Fleshwarper
Frenzied Berserker
Frost Mage (Sorc entry)
Ghost Faced Killer
Grey Guard
Halfling Outrider
Hammer of Moradin
Hathran
Heir of Siberys
Holy Liberator
Holy Scourge
Illithid Body Tamer
Illumine Soul
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Ironsoul Forgemaster
Jade Phoenix Mage
Jaunter
Justicar of Tyr
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign
Knight of the Chalice
Knight of the Raven
Knight of Sacred Seal
Knight Protector
Leviathan Hunter
Lion of Talisid
Loredelver
Loremaster
Lyric Thaumaturge
Malconvoker
Mage of the Arcane Order
Magical Trickster
Master Inquisitive
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry)
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)
Master of Shadow
Master Specialist
Master Thrower
Menacing Brute
Mortal Hunter
Mountebank
Nentyar Hunter
Nightsong Enforcer
Nightmare Spinner
Noctumancer
Olin Gisir
Orc Warlord
Pale Master
Primeval
Prophet of Erathaol
Psibond Agent
Psionic Fist
Quori Nightmare
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Recaster
Rimefire Witch
Risen Martyr
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Runesmith
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)
Sacred Fist
Sanctified Mind
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)
Scion of Dantalion
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Scorpion Heritor
Sea Mother Whip
Shadowbane Inquisitor (in conjunction with Blackguard)
Shadowbane Stalker
Shadow Sentinal
Shining South
Shou Disciple
Singer of Concordance
Skypledged
Slayer
Slayer of Domiel
Spellfire Hierophant
Spellwarp Sniper
Stoneblessed
Suel Arcanamach
Temple Raider of Olidammara (for non-Rogue entry)
Thaumaturgist
Thayan Gladiator
Thrall of Demogoron
Topaz Guardian (gish entry)
Triadic Knight
Umbral Disciple
Unseen Seer
Urban Soul
Vassal of Bahamut
Vengeance Knight
Virtuoso
Warforged Juggernaut
War Mind (non-pure psi entries)
Warrior of Darkness
Warrior Skald
Weretouched Master
Whisperknife
Wild Plains Outrider
Wildrunner
Wild Soul
Winterhaunt of Iborighu
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry)
Zerth Cenobite


Equal. These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing). Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.
Alienist
Animal Lord
Arcane Devotee
Archmage
Ardent Dilettant
Astral Dancer
Avenging Executioner
Battlerager
Battle Trickster
Beastmaster
Black Blood Hunter
Blood Magus
Champions of Valor
Child of the Night
Cipher Adept
Cloud Ancorite
Combat Trapper
Consecrated Harrier
Corrupt Avenger
Cultist of the Shattered Peak
Daggerspell Mage
Darkwood Stalker
Deep Diviner
Deepstone Sentinal
Disciple of Mammon
Disciple of the Word
Divine Champion
Divine Disciple
Divine Seeker
Dracolexi
Dwarven Defender
Dread Witch
Demonbinder
Ectopic Adept (but only if your DM uses CPsi nerfs already)
Eldritch Disciple
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Theurge
Elemental Savant
Elocater (Psychic Warrior or Psychic Rogue entry)
Exorcist of the Sacred Flame
Eye of Gruumsh
Fang of Sseth
Fiendbinder
Flayerspawn Psychic
Frost Mage (Wizard entry)
Frost Rager
Fortune's Friend
Geometer
Gnome Giant-Slayer
Goliath Liberator
Great Rift Deep Defender
Great Rift Skyguard
Hand of the Adama
Highland Stalker
Imaskari Vengeance Taker
Inquisitor of the Drowning Goddess
Invisible Blade (feint not recommended)
Jordain Vizier
Justicar
Kensai
Knight of Iron Glacier
Knight of the Pearl
Knight of the Weave
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)
Luiren Marchwarden
Maester
Magelord
Maiden of Pain
Maquar Crusader
Master of Masks (general entry)
Master of Vipers
Mindspy (CAdv version)
Moonsea Skysentinel
Morninglord of Lathander
Nar Demonbinder
Nature's Warrior
Netherese Arcanist
Occult Slayer
Peregrine Runner
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)
Prime Underdark Guide
Psion Uncarnate
Purple Dragon Knight
Ravager
Reachrunner
Reforged
Red Wizard
Ronin
Ruathar
Runecaster
Sapphire Hierarch
Scar Enforcer
Scourge Maiden
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Serpent Slayer
Shaaryan Hunter
Shade Hunter
Shadow Adept
Shadowband Inquisitor
Shadowblade
Shadowcrafter
Shadowsmith
Shadow Thief of Amn
Soulcaster
Spellcarved Soldier
Spellsinger
Spinemeld Warrior
Spymaster
Stonedeath Assassin
Stonelord
Stonespeaker Guardian
Stormcaster
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)
Stormlord
Stormsinger
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)
Streetfighter
Sword of Righteousness
Talontar Blightlord
Tattooed Monk
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)
Thayan Slaver
Totem Rager
Thayan Knight
Thrall of Orcus
Ultimate Magus (except with fast entry tricks)
Uncanny Trickster
Unseen Seer
Vermin Keeper
Vigilante
War Chanter
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry)
Warshaper (casting entry)
Warsling Sniper
Wild Mage
Witch Slayer (gish entry)
Zhentarim Spy


Down One. These PrCs are generally inferior to their obvious entry classes, losing out on important features in order to gain things that are likely not to matter in the long run. Expect characters with these to struggle in a single-classed party. They may still be viable for cherrypicking, or under heavy optimization.
Ancient Master
Arachnomancer
Arcane Trickster
Argent Savant
Bladesinger
Black Blood Cultist
Black Flame Zealot
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips)
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)
Celebrant of Sharess
Cerebremancer
Cloaked Dancer
Cognition Thief
Coiled Cultist
Cryokineticist
Dark Hunter
Death's Chosen
Demonlogist
Doomguard
Dragon Disciple
Dragonheart Mage
Dungeon Delver
Durthan
Ebon Saint
Effigy Master
Elocater (Psion entry)
Enlightened Spirit
Exalted Arcanist
Exemplar
Extreme Explorer
Evereskan Tomb Guardian
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry)
Glorious Servitor
Halruuan Magehand
Harper Agent
Harper Paragon
Heirophant
Horizon Walker
Hospitaler
Hunter of the Dead
Incandescent Champion
Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Justice of Weald and Woe
Kinstalker
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)
Luckstealer
Martyred Champion of Ilmater
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry)
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free")
Master of Radiance
Master of Shrounds
Master of the Yuirwood
Master Transmogrifist
Mindspy (CWarrior version)
Monk of the Long Death
Mystic Theurge
Naga Lord
Nightmask Deathbringer
Nightsong Infiltrator
Order of the Bow Initiate
Outcast Champion
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine
Pyrokineticist
Rage Mage
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)
Sacred Purifier
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry)
Scarlet Corsair (except with capstone abuse)
Sea Witch
Shadowdancer
Shadow Sun Ninja (unless you resist Con damage)
Shining Blade
Skylord
Slime Lord
Spellguard of Silverymoon
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips)
Stalker of Kharash
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)
Sunmaster
Swanmay
Tempest
Tenebrous Apostate
Thief-Acrobat
Thrall of Graz'zt
Topaz Guardian (caster entry)
Troubadour of Stars
Vermin Lord
Visionary Seeker
Warpriest
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips)
Yathchol Webrider


Down Two or More Tiers. These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain. Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.
Acolyte of the skin
Apostle of Peace (not broken, but blatantly contradictory text on material possessions)
Arcane Archer
Bereft
Blighter
Brimstone Speaker
Cavestalker (Druid entry)
Defiant
Dirgesinger
Duelist
Entropomancer
Evangelist
Eye of Lolth
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier)
Green Star Adept
Incarnum Blade
Insidious Corrupter (Arcane Spellcaster entry)
Lifedrinker
Master of the Unseen Hand
Metamind (higher with abuse of the capstone)
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips)
Ollam
Reaping Mauler
True Necromancer
Wavekeeper
Witchborn Binder
Wonderworker
Yathrinshee

Draz74
2009-03-21, 08:00 PM
I vote Green Star Adept all the way down to the Down Two category. Its capstone actually hurts more than it helps. :smallyuk:

sonofzeal
2009-03-21, 10:32 PM
I vote Green Star Adept all the way down to the Down Two category. Its capstone actually hurts more than it helps. :smallyuk:
Hard to say. It certainly isn't a "good" PrC. I'm not sure it's entirely dysfunctional though, just underwhelming given the context - a gish that doesn't really get anything that synergizes with gishing. The bonuses are body-tied so morphing is weak; the spellcasting is badly nerfed so that's not going to help you; and there's no "channeling" type power to fuse magic and melee. On the other hand, the bonuses it does give, when taken objectively, aren't all that bad. On the gripping hand... wouldn't the entire ten-level class be better off as an LA +2 or LA+3 template, even by the universally underwhelming standards of templates?

Can anyone else weigh in on this? "Down One Tier" or "Down Two Tiers" for Green Star Adept?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-21, 11:00 PM
The Green Spice Addict needs to be down 2 tiers. Your BAB, HP, casting and such is all terrible, and your DM is encouraged to send NPCs to try to kill you. And you pay for the privlage.

I'd also mention that Nature's Warrior should only really be a dip. It loses too much over straight Druid to spend 5 levels on it. I'd say, though, that MoMF is pretty good even for a Druid. Levels 5-15 you're not really giving up features, you're trading casting and the AC for melee capabilities. It might be a loss, but it's about even IMHO.

mikej
2009-03-21, 11:09 PM
Agree with lowering of Green Star Adept from -1 tier to -2 tier, since really what were the designers thinking ?

sonofzeal
2009-03-21, 11:34 PM
Done! I've lowered it in both listings (here and Brilliant Gameologists).

Any other suggested changes? Or, can anyone comment on Void Disciple either way?

aje8
2009-03-22, 06:13 PM
Shadowcraft Mage??!! That class is more powerful than Incantrix!!! It's flat-out insane! It's so broken you really wouldn't believe it! Put it in the highest tier ASAP!

I'm going to assume you're not familair with the standard Shadowcraft Mage build as otherwise there's no way it would be that low. A-like so:
Shadowcraft Mage Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556)

If you don't want to read it over, I'll give you the basics. By combining Shadowcraft Mage with Heighten Spell, Arcane Thesis and Earth Spell, a Shadowcraft Mage can prepare all Silent Image (A 0th level spell via gnome substatuion levels) and heighten it to the appropaite level. This heighten comes with an effective +2 levers because of the aformentioned 2 feats. Thus, he can make any slot any conjuration or evocation spell and get a bonus. He casts these spells w/o maetrial components and generally owns. In this way he can has incredible versatility. This means you can for example, cast Major Creation without any components and surround your enemies with Black Lotus Poison. You can cast Wish w/o any exp cost. And you can be banned by any sane DM along with Pun-Pun and such.

Samb
2009-03-22, 09:00 PM
I have some objections to 3 PrC you listed

War mind makes you start your power and points progression all over again. Granted you could enter as a psionic race or a non psi race with wild talent, but you would need to go 5 levels in a non psi class or risk losing all your progress once you enter war mind. What entry class did you use for warmind? Psiwarrior would lose around 3-4 levels of powers and no access to 6th level powers (well those kinda suck to start with but still) and ML doesn't stack.

Slayer of Domial: I think this should be equal due to it entry requirements. If you picked exalted rogue or even a poverty rogue you sac 3 feats on a class that really needs them, poverty rogue is a sacrifice in it's own right.

And invisible blade should be +1 IMHO if entry class is rogue. Full SA progression, free arterial strike feat, AC bonus are all big for rogues. Only sacrtice I can think of are the feats required, but even then you could or should be using lots of ranged SA when your full attack is only one attack anyway. Taking flaws like shakey will sofen the blow as well.

tyckspoon
2009-03-22, 09:48 PM
War mind makes you start your power and points progression all over again. Granted you could enter as a psionic race or a non psi race with wild talent, but you would need to go 5 levels in a non psi class or risk losing all your progress once you enter war mind. What entry class did you use for warmind? Psiwarrior would lose around 3-4 levels of powers and no access to 6th level powers (well those kinda suck to start with but still) and ML doesn't stack.


This. War Mind has a serious problem in that, to the best of my knowledge, it has no actual logical entry. A power point reserve can be acquired easily enough by way of feat or race, and the Know (History) requirement is low enough to cross-class easily if needed. Eight ranks in Know (Psionics), however, is pretty rough on the kinds of classes that would actually want to take War Mind. It'd be an easy +1, maybe a +2 for a PHB melee class, for example.. but they'll either have to burn feats on skill points and/or getting Know (Psi) as a class skill or just suck up cross-classing it, which means they can't actually get into the class until after level 13. Psionic characters can get into it pretty easily, but.. why would they want to? As mentioned it starts their power progression all over again- Slayer is far more attractive for both PsyWars and Psions. Although power point pools *do* stack, either class would still be getting more pp out of advancing their primary manifesting and getting the increased bonus points thereof.

Hmm.. oh. Hey. War Mind is meant for Soulknives. Bonus Wild Talent, Know (Psionics), no native manifesting progression to screw up. Ok, with Soulknife as an entry, it's easily +1. For everybody else, however, I'd say it's probably equal.

sonofzeal
2009-03-22, 09:59 PM
Shadowcraft Mage??!! That class is more powerful than Incantrix!!! It's flat-out insane! It's so broken you really wouldn't believe it! Put it in the highest tier ASAP!

I'm going to assume you're not familair with the standard Shadowcraft Mage build as otherwise there's no way it would be that low. A-like so:
Shadowcraft Mage Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556)

If you don't want to read it over, I'll give you the basics. By combining Shadowcraft Mage with Heighten Spell, Arcane Thesis and Earth Spell, a Shadowcraft Mage can prepare all Silent Image (A 0th level spell via gnome substatuion levels) and heighten it to the appropaite level. This heighten comes with an effective +2 levers because of the aformentioned 2 feats. Thus, he can make any slot any conjuration or evocation spell and get a bonus. He casts these spells w/o maetrial components and generally owns. In this way he can has incredible versatility. This means you can for example, cast Major Creation without any components and surround your enemies with Black Lotus Poison. You can cast Wish w/o any exp cost. And you can be banned by any sane DM along with Pun-Pun and such.
Mmm, I do entirely see your point. And I'm entirely aware of the Killer Gnome builds; I've made one myself. The counterargument is {a} we're concerned less with Earth Spell type munchkinry and more in how well the class functions out of the box. And, out of the box, it doesn't come with Earth Spell Heighten Spell 120% real shadows. And {b} that most of the power comes from wizard spells that are already broken, and SCM just makes the brokenness a bit more obvious.

That said, I'm not the one who rated it (that'd be PhaedrusXY of BG). I'm honestly leaning a little in your favour just because the PrC really is easy to abuse. I'll bring it up with him.


I have some objections to 3 PrC you listed

War mind makes you start your power and points progression all over again. Granted you could enter as a psionic race or a non psi race with wild talent, but you would need to go 5 levels in a non psi class or risk losing all your progress once you enter war mind. What entry class did you use for warmind? Psiwarrior would lose around 3-4 levels of powers and no access to 6th level powers (well those kinda suck to start with but still) and ML doesn't stack.

Slayer of Domial: I think this should be equal due to it entry requirements. If you picked exalted rogue or even a poverty rogue you sac 3 feats on a class that really needs them, poverty rogue is a sacrifice in it's own right.

And invisible blade should be +1 IMHO if entry class is rogue. Full SA progression, free arterial strike feat, AC bonus are all big for rogues. Only sacrtice I can think of are the feats required, but even then you could or should be using lots of ranged SA when your full attack is only one attack anyway. Taking flaws like shakey will sofen the blow as well.
War Mind - I can see what you mean, but I think the class is still solid enough to deserve its rank. I see the "logical entry" as a non-caster dipping a psi class for a level or two and then taking Warmind straight up. As a PrC for non-psi characters transitioning into psi, it's brilliant.

Slayer of Domial - three feats? I only see two. Still, I agree that Rogues generally need their feats. On the other hand, being able to cast Dimension Door, Invisibility, Spider Climb, Freedom of Movement, Alter Form? A lot of the spells on the spell list are the sort of required things that other rogues need to invest heavily in items or scrolls to get; being able to cast them yourself is a big help. Honestly, it's probably on the upper side of "Equal" or the lower side of "Up One". Does anyone else have any input on it?

Invisible Blade - SA is good, but consensus is that AC generally isn't really important (most higher level monsters will hit you anyway), and bleed damage takes too long to really kick in. None of that is bad, it just doesn't really warrant a +1. Still, I like the class and have used it quite effectively in the past, so I'll give it an Equal. Fair?

Samb
2009-03-22, 10:22 PM
Invisble blade as equal sounds about right.
I'm still not convinced that war mind is for soulknives, but I guess it would be doable. Thing is your ML is starting all over and that will make it really hard to make powers effective. As any other psi class I'd say it would be equal at best.

Ok you sold me on slayer of Domial. I forget that it had a good spell list and the fact that sanctified strike is acutally a decent feat (+1 on evil, +1d8 on evil outsiders, vile can't heal that damage). Servant of heaven is meh though.

sonofzeal
2009-03-22, 10:59 PM
I'm still not convinced that war mind is for soulknives, but I guess it would be doable. Thing is your ML is starting all over and that will make it really hard to make powers effective. As any other psi class I'd say it would be equal at best.
I don't think Warmind is for Soulknives either; as I said, I think it's for... oh, Barbarian4/PsiWar2, or Swashbuckler4/Psion2, or Crusader4/Wilder2, or something along those lines. People who begin without psi, then start gaining psi midway through their career as a result of build necessities or plot twists. And, really, if all you're looking at is the psi it grants then you're missing out. Yes it gets great pp progression, but it also gets enough class features to be entirely functional without Psi at all. Sweeping Strike alone is pretty solid.

Samb
2009-03-22, 11:28 PM
Bah I have to insist that invisible blade be on +1 since if you compare a rogue 10 to a rogue 5/IB 5 the latter clearly is better and even has an extra 1d6 on Sa to boot. Unless you say that the two entry feats would negate everything IB has to offer Id say it is fairly clearcut.

As for war mind I can see were you are coming from as to just look at the non psi stuff. It is a nice class with rage-like features and sweeping attack but by the same token you would have to apply that criteria on all Gish and psi PrC.

Take elocator for example. A fighter3/ psiwarrior2 could qualify for this easy and he gains leviate, dimentional door as a psi-like skill, bonus to hit, teleport and plane shift, 7/10 stacked ML. But you did (rightly) consider the lose of bonus feats and ML simplily because it was a psionic PrC. If considered for something like a human fighter3/ psiwarrior 2 it is almost all benefit, since he could meet the feat requirement and still have 4 feats to play with.

sonofzeal
2009-03-23, 01:51 AM
Bah I have to insist that invisible blade be on +1 since if you compare a rogue 10 to a rogue 5/IB 5 the latter clearly is better and even has an extra 1d6 on Sa to boot. Unless you say that the two entry feats would negate everything IB has to offer Id say it is fairly clearcut.
Mmm.... let's break it down.

Same hp
Same saves
IB has better BAB
Rogue has considerably better skillpoints.
Rogue has better SA since it doesn't need to be with daggers (but proper timing can get IB an extra 1d6)
IB gets AC bonus
Rogues gets a Special Ability and Imp Uncanny Dodge
IB gets feinting skills

...eh, I still think it's a tossup. Anyone else have an input here?


As to Warmind - the difference between it and Elocator is that you need a viable manifesting class to make the latter work (but if that class is too good then you're losing too much), while the former doesn't depend on what you had before. In that way, it's a far more flexible PrC than Elocator, and I think we can agree both that it's far easier to get into. These points weigh in its favour. And really, we should be comparing it against PrCs that do similar things, like Suel Archanamach. By that standard, where should it be?

Samb
2009-03-23, 02:23 AM
I personally don't consider rogue to have better SA since what weapon they use rarely has as much effect as how much d6's they use and in rogue 5/ IB 5 has 6d6 while rogue 10 only has 5d6.

If you said war mind was for psionic races that were in a non psionic class then I could see how war mind's requirement were easier to meet. But as it stands a human psiwarrior could meet all but the concentration requirement by level 1. I hardly find that any harder than war mind.
I just think that ranking it high when it doesn't increase ML to be very counterintuitive. Especially when one of the requirements is be psionic. I mean imagine an arcane PrC that required you to be able to cast 1st lvl spells but then advanced spells at it's own rate? I would not consider a win for the PC since I basically had to repeat my "freshman" caster level.

Samb
2009-03-23, 07:18 AM
I personally don't consider rogue to have better SA since what weapon they use rarely has as much effect as how much d6's they use and in rogue 5/ IB 5 has 6d6 while rogue 10 only has 5d6.

If you said war mind was for psionic races that were in a non psionic class then I could see how war mind's requirement were easier to meet. But as it stands a human psiwarrior could meet all but the concentration requirement by level 1. I hardly find that any harder than war mind.
I just think that ranking it high when it doesn't increase ML to be very counterintuitive. Especially when one of the requirements is be psionic. I mean imagine an arcane PrC that required you to be able to cast 1st lvl spells but then advanced spells at it's own rate? I would not consider a win for the PC since I basically had to repeat my "freshman" caster level.

Oslecamo
2009-03-23, 08:34 AM
Agree with lowering of Green Star Adept from -1 tier to -2 tier, since really what were the designers thinking ?

You're eating radioactive meteorites. It certainly can't be good for your health!:smalltongue:

Samb
2009-03-23, 06:09 PM
I'll give complete scoundrel a try then.

+2: malconvoker, spellwarp sniper
+1: avenging executioner (ninja entry, 0 for rogue), magical trickster, mountebank, psibond agent, grey guard , master of masks (pure spellthief entry)
+0: battle trickster, combat trapper, fortunes friend, unncanny trickster
-1: cloaked dancer
-2: none
Some could be better depending on what trick skills are used. Also this book had a bunch of PrC that only lasted 3 levels so how much was sacrificed or gained is minimized. Magical trickster allowed for a free metamagic to be applied is good enough to get +1 even though it only had 3 lvls in it. Unncanny trickster's worth will vary greatly depending on which class features you add. In general, adding class features of a low skill class make it more worth while.
Never played malconvoker but 8/9 CL progression and summoning demons sounds like it is significantly better than a straight arcane base class. Master of masks just has so much to offer.

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 07:25 PM
Malconvoker is +0; you lose casting, but get potent abilities. The cost is rather immense, but the abilities are decent. It's not a full casting & bonuses-class, but it is a worthwhile semi full casting class because it does what it does so well.

aje8
2009-03-23, 07:40 PM
I'd argue that Malconvoker is more like -1/2.... a Wizard who goes Malconvoker will usually end up mildly weaker. Not weaker than a straight Sorcerer but still signficantly weaker. It's notable as arguably the most powerful class in DnD that loses caster levels, however, it breaks rule one.

Don't lose caster levels.

So I'd probably lean towards +0 on it but it'd be at the low end of +0.

Also:
Ok, so you get most of the cheese associated with SCM. Yeah... characters that are more powerful than even the most well built Incantrix need to be +2.

Um.... I'd argue that IoSV needs to go down 1 tier. Maybe I'm alone in this and maybe I'm not but here me out. IoSV gives you basically inabliltiy to die as long as you don't really attack. That's powerful and abusable sure. But is it worth the 3 terrible, terrible feats you take for entry? I'd say yes, but It's not like it's a no-trade off win many people think it is. You're literally setting feats aflame here. It's still more powerful than a regular wizard but not up to the level of Planar Sheperd (lose nothing, beak game on regular basis)

Magic Circle Cheese associated with Red Wizard of Thay is similair to SCM. It also breaks the game in half if used properly but requires specific builds. That should maybe go up depending upon how much you consider specific builds to be relevant.

Also: I'd pretty sure Warmage+Rainbow servant was debunked as a myth.

Frosty
2009-03-23, 07:53 PM
Is Master of Masks any good except to get Exotic Weapon proficiency?

Xuincherguixe
2009-03-23, 08:27 PM
Thing is, some PrCs work better for some classes than others, when there are multiple entry choices.

And, there's the interactions with other PrCs. Though, those probably don't really count (I'm looking at you Mystic Theurge/Ur-Priest!)

Samb
2009-03-23, 09:10 PM
Changed malconvoctor to 0. Master of masks looks great on paper but I have never played one.

sonofzeal
2009-03-23, 09:14 PM
I got a second opinion (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.msg126959#msg126959) on Invisible Blade/Warmind, and I'll be keeping them at Equal / Up One respectively. There's always going to be some rankings that any given person will disagree with (I think Frenzied Berzerker should get a nod in the top spot, but I went with the popular consensus there). And there's always going to be things that are near the line and could go up or down. I'll correct IB's entry soon.


I'll give complete scoundrel a try then.

+2: malconvoker, master of masks
+1: avenging executioner, magical trickster, mountebank, spellearp sniper, psibond agent
+0: battle trickster, combat trapper, fortunes friend, grey guard, unncanny trickster
-1: cloaked dancer
-2: none
Some could be better depending on what trick skills are used. Also this book had a bunch of PrC that only lasted 3 levels so how much was sacrificed or gained is minimized. Magical trickster allowed for a free metamagic to be applied is good enough to get +1 even though it only had 3 lvls in it. Unncanny trickster's worth will vary greatly depending on which class features you add. In general, adding class features of a low skill class make it more worth while.
Never played malconvoker but 8/9 CL progression and summoning demons sounds like it is significantly better than a straight arcane base class. Master of masks just has so much to offer.
Thanks! It's always nice when other people pitch in.

Avenging Executioner seems odd to me. It only gets Sudden Strike (which is categorically weaker than Sneak Attack), and isn't long enough to get remotely effective DCs on the two fear effects. And Demoralize as a Move Action brings back all sorts of nasty memories of the CW Samurai. I'd say "Equal" at best, and even then I'd have liked it to have full BAB.

Grey Guard strikes me as an "Up One", just because it removes the stick from their rear end. That, to me, is worth all sorts of mediocre class features. That's just me though.

I'd definitely say that Malconvoker deserves a high ranking. "Never give up caster levels" is all well and good, but Sor/Wiz have a dire shortage of class features, and the Malconvoker is entirely respectable and focuses on one of the (arguably) two strongest schools anyway. The two entry feats are entirely functional. I'd have no problems giving it an "Up One".

Master of Masks... I can see it as "Up One" because of the flexibility if nothing else, but I'm not entirely sure beyond that. Samb, what's your logic here?



aje8 - IotSV veils function as Prismatic Walls. Prismatic Walls block AMF. An IotSV can cast an AMF around itself, while keeping all its veils and buffs up, and can still cast through the AMF (since it blocks neither LoS nor LoE). That's not even a munchkin combination, that's a core spell out of the school that most IotSVs specialize in anyway, that any IotSV anywhere in the world could exploit. That's why it's up there.

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 09:16 PM
Um.... I'd argue that IoSV needs to go down 1 tier. Maybe I'm alone in this and maybe I'm not but here me out. IoSV gives you basically inabliltiy to die as long as you don't really attack. That's powerful and abusable sure. But is it worth the 3 terrible, terrible feats you take for entry? I'd say yes, but It's not like it's a no-trade off win many people think it is. You're literally setting feats aflame here. It's still more powerful than a regular wizard but not up to the level of Planar Sheperd (lose nothing, beak game on regular basis)

The natural entry is Abjurer > Master Abjurer which only loses 1 feat to enter (getting Skill Focus & Greater Spell Focus for free). Abjuration happens to be one of the better Master Specialist-menus too.


Magic Circle Cheese associated with Red Wizard of Thay is similair to SCM. It also breaks the game in half if used properly but requires specific builds. That should maybe go up depending upon how much you consider specific builds to be relevant.

Then again, straight Red Wizard buys you +4 CL for free among other goodies, which happens to be pretty kickass with no lost levels. And of course, you can provide your own Circle with Leadership fairly easily without any actual cheese (then again, that's Leadership being busted, but there you go). In fact, Red Wizard/Archmage/Loremaster (1-level dip for UMD) with Leadership is probably the single most powerful Core-only build on higher levels (obviously Druid takes the low-level cake).

Samb
2009-03-23, 09:18 PM
Changed malconvoctor to 0. Master of masks looks great on paper but I have never played one.

Chronos
2009-03-23, 09:58 PM
I think the best entry for War Mind is probably a psionic race taking 4 levels of a full BAB class (Warblade or Crusader get Know:History in-class), followed by one level of Paragnostic Initiate (CChamp) to pick up Know:Psionics. That way, you don't lose any BAB, and you get into the class as quickly as theoretically possible. But it's probably not fair to judge a class from one of the earliest 3.5 books based on an entry using one of the latest books.

I'm a little unclear on the Elocator ranking, and why it's considered worse for a psion than for a wilder. It seems to me that it's not primarily a melee/manifesting class, but a skillmonkey/manifesting class, so I'd consider the logical entry to be rogue/manifesting class (or scout, considering the focus on mobility). And Int being more useful than Cha for a skillmonkey, I'd think that Psion would be the better fit.

Samb
2009-03-23, 10:31 PM
I'm a little unclear on the Elocator ranking, and why it's considered worse for a psion than for a wilder. It seems to me that it's not primarily a melee/manifesting class, but a skillmonkey/manifesting class, so I'd consider the logical entry to be rogue/manifesting class (or scout, considering the focus on mobility). And Int being more useful than Cha for a skillmonkey, I'd think that Psion would be the better fit.
Because a wilder is a gish class that can benefit from the added attack bonus from opportunistic strike and flanker to shore up the lose in ML, while a psion who doesn't attack anyway, would just lose 3 ML for the same benefits (scorn earth, psi-like dimension door and temporal accel, free teleport, free plane shift).

I currently have a rogue 6/psiwarrior 2/ elocator 6 and I personally think I don't that my rogue is any better because of it. But free dimension door/day is a blast to play with.

tyckspoon
2009-03-23, 10:58 PM
Because a wilder is a gish class

3/4 BAB and light armor does not a gish make. Gishes are made or broken in the spells they can use, and the Wilder fails that check. He doesn't get native access to the PsyWar's buffs, and he doesn't get native access to the best of the Psion list either, because they're discipline specific (Egoist-> Metamorphosis, Hustle, Animal Affinity, Thicken Skin, for example. Wilders have to burn xp on research or spend a feat for all of those.) You can make a Wilder work as a gish if you really want to, but you have to fight against the class to do so; its natural role is more like that of a very stripped-down Sorcerer or a Warmage. The biggest benefit to a Wilder from Elocator, IMO, is the bonus powers known at level 6. That's not anywhere near enough to make up for the lost manifester levels and especially not for the feats burnt on Mobility and Spring Attack just to get into the class.. especially keeping in mind that every lost manifester level erodes the edge a Wilder should be getting from Wild Surge.

sonofzeal
2009-03-24, 01:23 AM
Samb - people over here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.60) are commenting that Spellwarp Sniper could be +2, and Master of Masks could be +0. Comments?

Samb
2009-03-24, 02:42 AM
As per the wilder handbook they are capable Gish. Their surge ability which pays for all of the augment costs AND adds ML is just too good. I won't try to convnce you but I am a believer now.

I thought malcovertor was +1 or 2 myself since you only sac one CL for a bunch of really nice features. But people , who I assumed have played the class, said otherwise.

Spell warp snipe, I'm not too familar with the mechanics of spells in general so I am not a good person to ask but if it really does bypass MR and no save then it prolly is as good as they say.
Master of masks is able to expand the role of the players into anything. And it can summon demons!!! At higher lvls you can wear 4 at the same time and change as a swift action. All spells or spelllike abilities are done at +2 CL too. Like I said it sounds really good on paper, I would trust people who have play tested it, but the fighter mask gains all proficencies, assassin mask gains SA and increase in some skills, you can do anything and it sounds fun to play. Granted I'd you compare this to cheomeloen then this is lackluster.

Grey guard I was debating about, you only get 1/2 CL but you gain smites at the same rate and more freedom, lay on hands can do more etc I might just move this up since pallies don't depend on their spells as much.

Avenging exectioner, I assumed was a ninja or rogue entry. The idea that you can cause a mass daze is pretty sweet if you facing a gang, make ninjas not suck as such so I gave it a +1. But for a rogue I'd say +0.

I have only played an unncanny trickster and I used it to increase my psiwarrior and swashbuckler features so I got +10 skills, bonus feat and insightful strike. Trick skills are nice and being able to use them twice is really nice. It's not earth shattering but I had fun with it, too bad it's only 3 lvl PrC

Samb
2009-03-24, 02:56 PM
changed the ranking of malconvoker back to +2. Since the lost CL and bonus feats is worth what you get in return.

Grey gaurd is +1 since the lose of 5 CL not that big of deal for palidins, and still has same progression for smite and turning, and more uses for smite and lay on hands (it deals damage!!!). less restrictions on code of conduct is a plus for role players.

I will take everyone's word for spellwarp sniper. Not having to worry about SR or throws on spells is great and touch AC stays more or less the same as PCs advance in level. Ranged attack is easy to boost as well. Sounds like pure win, only drawback could be the need for ranger dips that may indirectly cause lose of CL.

Master of masks is a difficult one. Entry class i thought was bard, rogue, spelltheif or a rogue with a few dips in mage for useful catrips. Spellthief seemed like the most suited and master of masks allows for spell progression, and a plethora of spell-like abilities all cast at +2 CL. No lose in sneak attack progression, and summon demons at will, when the need arises you are a decent blaster with archmage or dragon masks. Lose of 6 CL, but gaining free spells (that normally a spellthief cannot use) kind of makes up for it.

Mountebank is +1 mainly for its teleporting abilities and disguise skills. Over 10 lvls you lose 2d6 of SA for the ability to use dimension door, and alter self.

Magical trickster was a PrC I wanted to place higher. Not only do you get a free metamagic feat, and you can apply a metamagic feat without changing its lvl, and you can make them more potent by increasing the DC! Very good stuff and worth the 1 lvl lose in CL IMHO. I would need more feedback as to how good metamagic feats are for magic, but if it is anything like metapsionics, then it is very good indeed.

Samb
2009-03-24, 04:18 PM
Gonna take a crack at complete psionics next. Post comments to give me an idea of how well they play or I will mess up and look dumb.

Eldariel
2009-03-24, 04:29 PM
Malconvoker is +1 tops. No way in hell is it in the same league as Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shepherd & co. But really, you apply it to a Wizard/Cleric, already a Tier 1 class. It serves to make a previously weak plan doable, but costs you a level of casting. I see it as a square +0 trade.

sonofzeal
2009-03-24, 08:06 PM
I'm applying the following changes to the master list. Where an issue's still in debate, majority opinion wins over minor differences, major differences are generally averaged, detailed arguments are favoured over flat statements, and when in doubt I'll err on the side of Samb's rating since he put the real work in. Any of this can still be changed, but any changes will have to wait for the next major update.


Add to books: Complete Scoundrel (credit Samb)

Add to +2: spellwarp sniper
Add to +1: grey guard, malconvoker, master of masks, magical trickster, mountebank, psibond agent
Add to +0: avenging executioner, battle trickster, combat trapper, fortunes friend, invisible blade, unncanny trickster
Add to -1: cloaked dancer
Add to -2: none

Removed from -1: Invisible Blade
Change: Remove "Wilder" entry for Elocator (it's unnecessary and controversial). Replace with "PsiRogue" just for lulz.

(edit) After some controversy, I'm also splitting the Warmind entry. It'll now be "Equal" for PsiWar and "Up One" for mixed entry.

Samb
2009-03-24, 09:29 PM
Here's the preliminary list for complete psionics

+2: anarchic initiate, soulbow, zerth cenobite
+1: illumine soul, ectopic adept, flayerspawn psychic
-1: storm disciple
-2: ebon saint

Storm disciple took some reserch since I had no idea how divine mind worked. The psychic auras don't seem to get stronger as you level but they get wider and you can stack more. It's pretty weak and lightening aura isonly one point of electrical damage. It's capstone is thunderblade blade, which is pointless since you could just buy a lightening burst weapon. Bad PrC.
I am still undecided on flayerspawn psychic. The 4 ML lose really hurts a psion but you gain a mind blast that is freely augmentable, 3 free feats, the chance to eat brains. I have played with a FSP and he did crazy things (and become Illisencse) but I cannot consider him an average user. Also many things are immune to mind blast.

Anarchic initiate is truly the rolls Royce of psions and wilder. Full progression for ML, and psion can gain wild surge!!!! Overchannel is nice and all but surge pays for all the augmentaion costs as well. For a psion the cost of going 10 lvls in this class is just 2 bonus feats (any self respecting psion would have overchannel). Wilder gets to be wild even more. We need more PrC like this.

Ebon saint is complete trash. If the levels of ES's dire strike stacked with lurk augments then this would be okay, but they don't so you end up being screwed on lurk augments AND ML, and only one 1d6 for SA completes it's epic fail.

Illumine soul gives nothing but benefits to a soulknife, but if in an undead heavy world this build could very potent.

Soulbow; what soulknife shouldve been

Zerth cenobite: for psi race monks, advance most monk abilities and gain extra actions, gain time skip punch this is awesome

Samb
2009-03-25, 02:28 AM
Okay did some more reading on divine mind and found that some auras do increase in strength and the lightening aura is one of them. However, storm disciple levels and divine mind levels don't stack for the purposes of determining it's strength. An ardent could take storm disciple as well and only lose 2 ML for very marginal benefits so it will stay at -2.

Changing zerth cenobite to +2 because it really is that good. Free actions are not something to discount. The zerth also gets backslip to make these extra actions count, precogitive surge adds monk and zerth levels to a single strike. The best thing is temporal strike, which has a DC that is determined by your character class level (not zerth level). This PrC makes you wonder why psionic fist was even made.

All in all, complete psionics seems to have a very nice collection of PrC. Hey Zeal are you going to include the PrCs from Hyerconciousness? It's 3rd party but generally considered a core book for psionics as it was written by blBurce Cordell.

sonofzeal
2009-03-25, 11:08 AM
All in all, complete psionics seems to have a very nice collection of PrC. Hey Zeal are you going to include the PrCs from Hyerconciousness? It's 3rd party but generally considered a core book for psionics as it was written by blBurce Cordell.
You're welcome to review them if you want. I'd probably put in an asterix or something to mark them as 3rd party.

Chronos
2009-03-25, 02:50 PM
Anarchic initiate is truly the rolls Royce of psions and wilder. Full progression for ML, and psion can gain wild surge!!!! Overchannel is nice and all but surge pays for all the augmentaion costs as well. For a psion the cost of going 10 lvls in this class is just 2 bonus feats (any self respecting psion would have overchannel). Wilder gets to be wild even more. We need more PrC like this.It's a 10-level PrC designed for wilders that wilders can't qualify for until level 13. Please, please, no more PrCs like this.

And what's so great about spellwarp snipers? I don't think Fireball becomes any less underwhelming when you turn it into a ray. Obviously, there's something I'm missing here.


One other thought: For classes that require multiclassing to enter, what are we comparing them to? A mystic theurge, for instance, is significantly weaker than a pure wizard or pure cleric, but it's a heck of a lot better than just a straight multiclass of the two.

aje8
2009-03-25, 03:20 PM
Um no. Maclonvoker is not +2.

Think about what you just said in your previous post about Malconvoker.
changed the ranking of malconvoker back to +2. Since the lost CL and bonus feats is worth what you get in return.
Yes they are worth it. In the sense of 1=1 worth it. They're a fair trade, if anything benficail to the side w/ the caster level. However, +2 means they're gaining potentially gamebreaking power! NOT a fair trade.

Wizard 20 is about the same power level as Wizard 10/Malconvoker 10. Thus, Malconvoker is +0. Please explain your logic for how it's +2.

Malconvoker is powerful, but we're not discussing it's power, we're discussing it's power as compared to straight wizard which is also insanley powerful. They are equal.

With regards to IoSv..... yeah if you go Master Specalist you're insaley strong but I'd argue that that's the power of Master Specalist itself not IoSv. Master Specalist is excellent in any build for 3 levels or 10 and is the segway into many PrCs. (Archmage anyone?)

Thus, Master Specalist is probably +2 while IoSv is the high end of +1.

Samb
2009-03-25, 03:34 PM
It's a 10-level PrC designed for wilders that wilders can't qualify for until level 13. Please, please, no more PrCs like this.

And what's so great about spellwarp snipers? I don't think Fireball becomes any less underwhelming when you turn it into a ray. Obviously, there's something I'm missing here.


One other thought: For classes that require multiclassing to enter, what are we comparing them to? A mystic theurge, for instance, is significantly weaker than a pure wizard or pure cleric, but it's a heck of a lot better than just a straight multiclass of the two.
Huh? level 13 to enter!? Where are you getting this from?

requirements for anarchic initiate:
any chaotic, 8 ranks in knowledge (psionics and the planes), wild surge or overchannel feat.

If your wilder can't qualify for this in 5 levels I'd say you were playing wilder wrong or read 8 ranks as 18 ranks.

Spellwarp sniper removes the saving throw and resistance to the warped spell requiring only a touch attack. Hence, the high ranking.

tyckspoon
2009-03-25, 03:42 PM
requirements for anarchic initiate:
any chaotic, 8 ranks in knowledge (psionics and the planes), wild surge or overchannel feat. (emphasis added)


Wilders don't have Know: Planes as a class skill. So a straight Wilder has to cross-class it. Level 13 is when you can have 8 ranks in a cross-classed skill. Relatively easy to overcome, since there are at least several feats that can add a Knowledge to the in-class skill list, but certainly a strike against the claim that Anarchic Initiate is meant for Wilders.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-25, 06:16 PM
Um no. Maclonvoker is not +2.

Think about what you just said in your previous post about Malconvoker.
Yes they are worth it. In the sense of 1=1 worth it. They're a fair trade, if anything benficail to the side w/ the caster level. However, +2 means they're gaining potentially gamebreaking power! NOT a fair trade.

Wizard 20 is about the same power level as Wizard 10/Malconvoker 10. Thus, Malconvoker is +0. Please explain your logic for how it's +2.

Malconvoker is powerful, but we're not discussing it's power, we're discussing it's power as compared to straight wizard which is also insanley powerful. They are equal.

With regards to IoSv..... yeah if you go Master Specalist you're insaley strong but I'd argue that that's the power of Master Specalist itself not IoSv. Master Specalist is excellent in any build for 3 levels or 10 and is the segway into many PrCs. (Archmage anyone?)

Thus, Master Specalist is probably +2 while IoSv is the high end of +1.Iot7V is awesome. The feats required for entry are not that bad even without MS, MS just makes it easier.

Malconvoker shouldn't be +2, I agree, but compared to most Summoner builds, it's far better than +0. A Wizard 20 is a much weaker summoner than a Wiz 11/Mal 9.

Chronos
2009-03-25, 06:19 PM
Spellwarp sniper removes the saving throw and resistance to the warped spell requiring only a touch attack. Hence, the high ranking.Spellwarp doesn't say anything about removing spell resistance, and it only removes the save if it's a Reflex save-- Fort or Will saves still apply. So it'd actually make a standard save-or-suck spell like Finger of Death or Baleful Polymorph worse, since now you have to make the attack roll in addition to everything else. Really, the only things that benefit from the class are damage spells, and everyone knows that damage is suboptimal for a spellcaster. Plus you almost certainly need to dip at least one level of a non-casting class to qualify.

Samb
2009-03-25, 07:19 PM
Hmm about spellwarp sniper, I used the entry of a fighter/mage or ranger/mage as the entry class, since a straight mage could not do qualify. I was mistaken about the ignore SR, but that would not change my rating of it, since a mage with dips in ranger or fighter would already be sacing CLs to be a blaster and not a batman.

On malconvoker, I have never taken a caster other than psion to epic levels so i will defer to sonofzeal on this matter. On paper, it looks like a fair trade and that is why I ranked it high.

I missed that know(planes) was cross class, still it does not seem to be that great of a deterrent since that is easy to shore up with feats or a dip in psion (free feat) or ardent (2 free feats/mantles). Lose of ML for a wilder is not as severe as for other psi classes since you will be using surges anyways (or just get practiced manifester). Even if you compare a wilder 13/anarchic initiate 7 to a wilder 20 the difference is clear regardless of what level you entered (same ML and surge progression with extra goodies).

All benefit and few to no sacrifices, that is why it ranks so high.





Need opinions on flayerspawn psychic. I think +1 tops but with powers, feats and items that increase your grapple you could kill things in 4 rounds consistently. Mind blast is always great when it works. Main downer is the lose of 8-9 level spells, and 4 MLs *at least these can be made up with practiced manifester). I'm leaning on +1 or 0.

Chronos
2009-03-25, 07:25 PM
Hmm about spellwarp sniper, I used the entry of a fighter/mage or ranger/mage as the entry class, since a straight mage could not do qualify. I was mistaken about the ignore SR, but that would not change my rating of it, since a mage with dips in ranger or fighter would already be sacing CLs to be a blaster and not a batman.First of all, you need rogue or ninja, not fighter or ranger. Second of all, even if you've already spent one level on rogue for some reason, you'll still be more effective as a batman than by doing damage. Third, there are enough spells that are rays anyway that you could just cast one of them to begin with and not bother warping some other spell into shape.

JoshuaZ
2009-03-25, 07:42 PM
Wilders don't have Know: Planes as a class skill. So a straight Wilder has to cross-class it. Level 13 is when you can have 8 ranks in a cross-classed skill. Relatively easy to overcome, since there are at least several feats that can add a Knowledge to the in-class skill list, but certainly a strike against the claim that Anarchic Initiate is meant for Wilders.

This may just be example of how Complete Psionic isn't always well thought out. I don't have the book with me right now, but I think the fluff explicitly says that Wilders take the class.

sonofzeal
2009-03-25, 08:00 PM
First of all, you need rogue or ninja, not fighter or ranger. Second of all, even if you've already spent one level on rogue for some reason, you'll still be more effective as a batman than by doing damage. Third, there are enough spells that are rays anyway that you could just cast one of them to begin with and not bother warping some other spell into shape.
Not all spells with Ref saves deal damage, and removing the save component makes them viable. As a basic basic example for a measly level 1 spell, "Sandblast" goes from a trivial annoyance to a no-save stunlock on one target. Bands of Iron (level 2 or 3 Wu Jen spell) becomes a no-save Helpless until they can make a DC 18 Str or Escape Artist check, putting the target out of the fight for a round or more and making them vulnerable to CDG/SA. Those are low-level spells, so you can easily use Split Ray on them and hold two or more enemies guaranteed out of the fight long enough for your allies to mop up everyone else, or incapacitate the BBEG while the entire rest of the party wails on him. Bands of Iron is negated by FoM and Sandblast only stuns for one turn, but these are low level spells I know offhand because my Artificer was looking at wanding them. I'm sure there's plenty of other spells that have Ref saves vs status effects, and I'm sure plenty of them become monsters when you remove that Ref save.

I think we can all agree that touch attacks are far superior to Ref saves, even ignoring Evasion. And that's why Spellwarp Sniper is badass.

(edit - "Resilient Sphere" is actually pretty nice for a level 4 Spellwarp. Again the emphasis is on taking someone out of the fight temporarily, with no saving throw. "Anger of the Noonday Sun" would be wicked awesome if you could get it on a Spellwarper, too.)

Samb
2009-03-25, 08:09 PM
This may just be example of how Complete Psionic isn't always well thought out. I don't have the book with me right now, but I think the fluff explicitly says that Wilders take the class.

Well this maybe true but since no errata has been issued we must go by RAW.

I think that SWS being compared to batman is an unfair statement for the purposes of this exercise, because the entry class/PC is a blaster not a batman. Sonofzeal has described how effective this could be and I feel no more need to defend it.

sonofzeal
2009-03-25, 10:04 PM
Stormwrack and Sandstorm, 1st draft...

Up Two
Legendary Captain (if only for its association with Leadership)


Up One
Ashworm Dragoon (awesome for the flavour if nothing else)
Leviathan Hunter (strong trophy mechanic, solid class in general)
Sand Shaper (free metamagic, a bunch of bonus spells, and free resurrection make this viable for sorcs; wizard entry fairs worse)
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (for Ranger/Paladin type gishes)
Scorpion Heritor (bonus feats, full sneak attack, and an extra natural attack FTW)
Walker in the Waste (mostly for granting an LA+4 template for only two lost caster levels; rest is mediocre though, I could see this as an "equal")


Equal
Knight of the Pearl (interesting gains, but loses smite and mount progression)
Lord of Tides (entirely functional for clerics, less so for druids)



Down One
Scarlet Corsair (doesn't seem worth the lack of SA/skills, though I see abuse of that capstone...)
Sea Witch (doesn't seem worse the lost caster levels)
Stormcaster (underwhelming


Down Two
Wavekeeper (I can't imagine what druid would ever take this)

Bugbeartrap
2009-03-25, 10:18 PM
To put in my own two cents:

Spellwarp only works on spells that have an area of effect. So I'm pretty sure iron bands wouldn't work like that.

sonofzeal
2009-03-25, 10:35 PM
To put in my own two cents:

Spellwarp only works on spells that have an area of effect. So I'm pretty sure iron bands wouldn't work like that.
Point, and there's aren't really all that many Ref-save-vs-status-effect spells. I still think it's good, but I'll lower it to +1 in the next update

Chronos
2009-03-27, 11:36 PM
Looking at this again, why is Hospitaler in the "equal" tier? The fluff text says that most of them are paladins, but there's nothing you gain from the class that you wouldn't also gain just by staying in the paladin class, and it does not advance the two best paladin class features, Smite Evil or Special Mount (despite needing mounted feats and skills to enter). Maybe there's some way you could make it work with a cleric entry, but then you're giving up three caster levels, which still isn't worth what you get.

Samb
2009-03-28, 09:57 AM
Looks like I was right on point with complete psi.

Could you do a "best of" for each base class? I guess I could give complete Mage a try.

sonofzeal
2009-03-28, 01:03 PM
Looking at this again, why is Hospitaler in the "equal" tier? The fluff text says that most of them are paladins, but there's nothing you gain from the class that you wouldn't also gain just by staying in the paladin class, and it does not advance the two best paladin class features, Smite Evil or Special Mount (despite needing mounted feats and skills to enter). Maybe there's some way you could make it work with a cleric entry, but then you're giving up three caster levels, which still isn't worth what you get.
...point. I'll move it to -1.


I'll be updating the lists later today. Here's the proposed changes

Up Two
- Spellwarp Sniper
+ Anarchic Initiate
+ Legendary Captain
+ Walker in the Waste
+ Zerth Cenobite

Up One
+ Ashworm Dragoon
+ Ectopic Adept
+ Flayerspawn Psychic
+ Illumine Soul
+ Leviathan Hunter
+ Sand Shaper (Sorc Entry)
+ Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
+ Scorpion Heritor
+ Spellwarp Sniper


Equal
- Hospitaler
+ Knight of the Pearl
+ Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)
+ Unseen Seer

Down One
+ Hospitaler
+ Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)
+ Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry)
+ Scarlet Corsair (except with capstone abuse)
+ Sea Witch
+ Stormcaster
+ Storm Disciple

Down Two
+ Wavekeeper
+ Ebon Saint



A "best of" is not a bad idea, but wouldn't it mostly be just a repeat of the "up two" category? What I think I'd prefer to see as a player would be the list that already exists, sorted by class instead of by rank. So there'd be a little Barbarian spoiler section with "Up two - champion of Gwyn; Up One - Bear Warrior; etc". That'd be a lot of work though.

CthulhuM
2009-03-28, 03:11 PM
Well, here's how I'd rank the Races of the Wild PRCs:

Arcane Heirophant: +0. It's basically a better version of mystic theurge, and the combination of druid and wizard spellcasting and the ability to imbue your animal companion with touch spells can actually make it a very nasty combatant, even compared to a normal animal companion.

Champion of Corellon Larethian: +0. Has somewhat hefty feat requirements, but nothing too tough for a fighter to meet. The class is very nice for high-dex fighters, and basically makes them semi-viable, but doesn't really help (or stand up to) an ubercharger build or anything similarly optimized.

Luckstealer: -1. Loses 3 caster levels, and doesn't really gain anything particularly compelling. The capstone is a nice defensive ability, but full casters have plenty of defensive options on their own. Also, its class features are entirely charisma based, so it's particularly weak for wizards or clerics.

Ruathar: +0. The class is designed so basically anyone can take it and give up little-to-nothing to do so (particularly since it's only a 3-level class), but it also doesn't really grant any significant benefits. Basically a pointless class, outside of potential roleplaying applications.

Skypledged: +1. Basically mage of the arcane order for clerics (well, raptoran clerics). Full casting, some nice wind-related powers, and the ability to pull spells from a divine spellpool. Just all-around good.

And on that note, I really think mage of the arcane order should be bumped up to +1, or possibly even +2. Not only does it give wizards some ability to act as spontaneous casters, it lets you call upon any spell, even those you don't actually know. It could even be argued it allows access to banned schools. The class is also full casting with minimal entry requirements, so, you know, nothing lost there.

Stormtalon: +1. Basically just an enhanced version of the fighter class for raptoran melee combatants. -1 compared to advancing a ToB class, but basically a straight upgrade to fighter, and a one-level dip to gain a natural attack with your feet is almost always worth it.

Whisperknife: +1. If you ever wanted to play a throwing-based rogue (and happen to be a halfling), then this class is basically how you do it.

Wildrunner: +1. Ever wanted to add a little more barbarian to your barbarian? Gives you a rage-like ability (+2 Strength, +6 Dex) usable 3+CHA times per day, that improves as you level up. You get the ability at 2nd level, and the only improvement that really matters is at 6th (pounce in the round you activate it), so the class is very easy to dip. As a bonus, you get extra fast movement at 1st level, and the ranger version of hide in plain sight at 5th level.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd put stormcaster as a +1, assuming anyone entering it is doing so specifically as a blaster mage. You give up one caster level, and gain some useful augments to your blastiness (particularly the 5th level ability that makes all of your electricity spells also do extra sonic damage and require a fort save or be stunned).

Chronos
2009-03-28, 08:09 PM
Ruathar: +0. The class is designed so basically anyone can take it and give up little-to-nothing to do so (particularly since it's only a 3-level class), but it also doesn't really grant any significant benefits. Basically a pointless class, outside of potential roleplaying applications.Eh, compared to straight wizard, you get more HP, better Reflex save, better BAB, a couple of extra skill points per level, and an expanded skill list, plus a smattering of other class features. In return for this, you give up absolutely nothing, not even any prerequisites. As an added bonus, it's available earlier than most prestige classes, so you're probably not even giving up the opportunity to take some other PrC. To me, the +0 tier means that it's a toss-up whether to take the PrC or stay in your original class, and that's not the case here. I would argue that this, and almost all other classes that give full spellcasting advancement, should be in the +1 tier at least.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-28, 08:16 PM
Eh, compared to straight wizard, you get more HP, better Reflex save, better BAB, a couple of extra skill points per level, and an expanded skill list, plus a smattering of other class features. In return for this, you give up absolutely nothing, not even any prerequisites. As an added bonus, it's available earlier than most prestige classes, so you're probably not even giving up the opportunity to take some other PrC. To me, the +0 tier means that it's a toss-up whether to take the PrC or stay in your original class, and that's not the case here. I would argue that this, and almost all other classes that give full spellcasting advancement, should be in the +1 tier at least.I think full-casting classes are a special case. You have full-advancement classes like Ruathar that really give you nothing, classes like Fatespinner, Archmage, MS, and such that give you class featrues that boost casting, and classes like Incantrix that break the game. Yes Ruathar is good, but is it even as good as Loremaster or Archmage?

sonofzeal
2009-03-29, 05:05 AM
Here's my take on the Frostburn splat book PrCs. Feel free to weigh in.

Cloud Ancorite: Seems to be logical entry for Monks, Requires 2 entry feats(Mountaineer, Improved Unarmed Combat), some boost in monkiness(Climb, jump, etc.) Later, get Quickend Airwalk 1/day. I can see a +0, or a WEAK +1.

Cryokineticist: An ice-chucking machine relies on Psi-like Abilities. Lots of DD, some resistant to cold( not immunity!). -1.

Disciple of Thrym: Not-so-easy entry Beat-stick with limited Divine casting, smite-like attack, immune to fire by 10th.
weak +1.

Frost Mage: 4 levels long class for Wizards or Sorcerors with Lackluster summon, piddly amount of NA(wtf?), bypasses cold resistance granted by spell-likes and items. nothing special. -2.

Frost Rager: For Barbarians uses Unarmed strike(bwhh?), +NA while rage, auto-stables, immunity to cold, 50% absorption of ice damage. Narrowly focused +0.

Knight of Iron glacier: For Fighters or Knights. You get a war-trained giant Moose for mount. Otherwise a Knight(the base class)-Lite. -1 for Knight, +0 for Fighter.

Primeval: For barbarians with 3 feats to throw away. A limited version of wild shape subject to DM fiat. You get -s to mental stats, +s to physicals. -1.

Stormsinger: Bard PrC, able to mimic (storm related) spells though music. +0.








Having a go on the Shadow Magic section of ToM:

Shadowsmith - +0 (-0.5 to 0; value depends on character's purchasing power)
Looking at the entry requirements, the typical entry to this class would be... a Fighter (and/or Rogue) multiclass. Its ridiculously easy to get into, but the class abilities are just OK. Being able to get some skill bonuses a very limited number of times per day is weak. Creating temporary arms and armor at a fairly high enhancement bonus for free later on is much cooler, and the only class ability worth taking. Overall, you gain some very cool abilities, which is cool, but you also give up a ton of bonus feats in later levels (when one can take the advanced combat feats), or other more useful combat PrCs. And, all these abilities can be emulated by buying magic equipment.

Shadowblade - +0 (0 to +0.5 depending on access to different PrCs and sourcebooks)
Typical entry would be a Rogue (or Ranger). So, if we're to consider the Rogue / Shadowblade build to a straight Rogue, the PrC loses a few sneak attack dice, and in turn gains class abilities to much more reliably use sneak attack. Its actually a decent PrC, but one basically has to compare the class abilities to the Rogue special abilities starting at 10th level; I personally like the Rogue abilities better, but these are gained much earlier, so its a balance / campaign / gameplay issue.

Noctumancer - +1 (-0.5 to +1.5; it all depends on the "Creeping Darkness" option, and what the build is shooting for)
The entry here would be a Shadowcaster / Arcane Caster. Shadowcasters are not arcane casters, but they do have some power. If you are looking to just mix in some standard spellcasting into a primary shadowcaster build, then this is +1, as it can override the non-shadowcaster classes, essentially gaining spellcasting at no cost other than some silly non-mystery class abilities (see Creeping Darkness in ToM). If you are looking to add mysteries to a spellcaster, this is 0, since you lose out on CL and spellcasting. IF you're trying to make a counterspeller, this is a great class, and Warp and Echo Spell are excellent methods of counterspelling.

Master of Shadow - +1
Straight Shadowcasters w/ Shadow Familiar take this class. Compared to the later class abilities, the powers gained are pretty kick arse. I've read very good things. I don't like Shadow Elementals in general, but you essentially just lose the unlimited / day fundamental abilities, which are very weak by the time you get them.

Child of the Night - 0
Shadowcasters take this, lose a CL, and gain essentially cold resistance and some bonuses on Hide instead, as well as a continuous blur effect (eventually). Considering the best ability is duplicated in a core magic item makes it annoyingly inefficient, but its a testament to how weak the end-game Shadowcaster mysteries are that it still only gets a net 0 ranking.

OK, thats my evaluation, hope it helps!





Hm... I'm not completely sure about those Complete Psionics ratings. In response to your request for thoughts, here are mine:

The Flayerspawn Psychic simply cannot raise the Psion from Tier 2 to Tier 1.

First, look at the company that the Flayerspawn would have. Wizard, Cleric, and Druid.
Next, look at the actual abilities that it gets... 3 Bonus "Illithid Feats" and a Mind Blast usable a maximum of six times a day.
Next, look what it gives up compared to Psion 20. Four manifester levels. Two bonus feats (encompassing much more flexibility than the "Illithid" feats). That effectively means 6 powers known, 122 power points, and access to 9th level powers.
Consider also: You need to take Practised Manifester in order to get ML 20. Effectively, that means you're only gaining two bonus feats, and those are heavily restricted when compared to the straight Psion's options. (Note: Illithid feats are Psionic feats, so the Psion can choose them as a bonus feat. There's not even a selection advantage with the Flayerspawn Psychic.)
Up a tier? More like DOWN a tier. Sorry, Mind Flayer wannabe. You were kinda lame to begin with.
Alternative entry classes aren't much kinder to the old beast. I guess Ardent shenanigans might allow you to get back 9th level powers, but you're still crippling yourself for useless abilities. Solid -1 tier, pushing into -2 territory when you consider just how useless it is.


Anarchic Initiate - It's very good (the only full-manifesting Psionic PrC), but I'm not sure it's that mythical "Tier 0" good. As a comprehensive upgrade on Psion levels, the only reason you might not take this from an optimisation standpoint is if you're non-chaotic or really need two bonus feats. I'd say it's only +1 tier, given that the Psion is already tier 2 and nothing truly game-breaking is added to the mix... I can understand the argument for +2 tiers, though, as it is the most powerful Psion PrC. My concerns are probably just a result of me being cautious. The win that is Wild Surge as a Psion (by RAW, with no chance of Enervation) cannot be underestimated. +1 tier would be the safe bet, but I guess +2 tiers is reasonable.

Ectopic Adept - This is a shiet PrC, if only because it locks you in to the stupid Complete Psi Astral Construct nerf. The capstone of the class is literally being able to use Astral Construct as originally designed (more than one construct active at a time). That's just sad. Even with using the nerf, I wouldn't say it's anything special. You gain a few useful features if you're focused on ACs, and you lose a manifester level in return. Solid +0 if you're unlucky enough to use the CPsi nerf. (-1 if you consider the fact it forces you to use the nerf. :banghead) Simply put, a Shaper using the un-nerfed AC power is stronger than an Ectopic Adept using the nerfed version - and that's just sad.

Ebon Saint - Seriously? This PrC is so bad, it loses TWO tiers? ... why? Let's break it down:

Compared to Lurk 20, a Lurk 15/Ebon Saint 5 loses 12 pp, 1 power known, 1 ML, and augment progression.
In return, they get a decent ability in Dire Strike (especially in 1v1 situations), a minor stealth boost in Shadowfriend, and the ability to use Dire Augments.
In terms of sheer combat ability, Lurk Augments are better than Dire Augments. The Ebon Saint PrC is one that feels specialised for a particular style of play - a from-the-shadows sort of spy. It's not really that bad within its niche, and niches are what PrCs are all about.
I'd say, for Lurk entry, the Ebon Saint qualifies as a weak -1 tier, with the possibility of being +0 tier.
Hm... But wait! The Ebon Saint is supposed to be a Lurk class, but it actually works really well with non-Lurk entry. The PrC is actually a bit of a Rogue/Psion hybrid, and it doesn't work too badly in that context. You could also sneak into it with the Psychic Rogue class.
Conclusion? It's not an amazing class, but I'd say it has a shout at being +0 tier at best, -1 tier at worst. The simple fact is, if you're aiming for a stealth/spying Lurk, it doesn't actually outright harm you (despite lack of augment progression) - it just makes some tradeoffs that can seem to be a step down. When you consider other methods of entry, it's really not that bad. In my opinion, +0 tier.
(Also, Metamorphic Transfer plus the Steal Form ability could get pretty cool.)


Illumine Soul - I absolutely agree with the +1 tier rating. It is an excellent PrC, especially against Undead. It loses basically nothing from its entry class, and the second level is especially potent - expend focus (whenever you want - no usage limit!) for blanket immunity to death effects, energy drain, and all negative energy. Sweet. Soulknife 5/Soulbow 10/Illumine Soul 5 might actually... not suck!

Soulbow - Agreed with +1 tier. Not bad at all! I see that the first page has the Soulbow as +2... I might disagree with that, as I'm not sure it raises the Soulknife to Tier 3. It's not at the level of a Martial Adept or gish.

Storm Disciple - Uh... I dunno. It's just sorta pointless. I guess +0 makes sense? It... doesn't really help you, but it doesn't really hurt you. In fact, it doesn't do much at all. If you've got a fetish for electricity... go for it? It isn't particularly good for the Divine Mind, but I guess a Fighter with a dip in Ardent would get along okay? ??? This PrC is just... crap. But not in the way of "taking it hurts you" ala Shining Blade, just "taking it serves no purpose at all". :rollseyes

Zerth Cenobite - Yeah, I can see the whole +1 tier thing (I think your +2 tier rating was a typo, as the Cenobite is maybe slightly inferior to the Psionic Fist). Given that it's a Monk class, moving that ol' bugger up to Tier 4 would seem to make sense.


CthulhuM - RotW looks good, and someone else has submitted a similar list via PM, and I'm waiting on permission to post it publicly. The only major differences are that they put Wildrunner at -1 (I'd side with you here, as Dex is very good for some Barbarians), and Arcane Heirophant at +1 (I'd side with them, as it really does seem one of the best dual-progression options around). They also put Stormtalon as equal (I'm considering putting it there and putting a note in about it being a solid dip class). Any comments?

In other news, life's intervened so actual list updates are delayed a bit, but should go up within the next couple days.

CthulhuM
2009-03-29, 09:30 PM
Yeah, +0 for the stormtalon actually does sound about right, if you throw in the comment on the 1 level dip.

As for arcane hierophant... yes, it's an an excellent dual-caster class, possibly the best in the game. But it's still a dual-caster. Is a wizard 3/druid 3/arcane hierophant 10/mystic theurge 4 really BETTER than a full caster 20? You lose 3 caster levels and 7 wild shape/animal companion levels, and gain some MAD. I'd say, built well, it's about on par with the base classes, but not better than them, hence the +0.

lsfreak
2009-03-29, 09:47 PM
I'm going to second moving Mage of the Arcane Order up to +1. It allows wizards to cast spells spontaneously, without having to wait for the rest-and-prep time; certainly useful but the saved time probably isn't worth more than a +1. On the other hand, it lets a sorcerer cast all those spells that are too situational to bother learning, overcoming (to a point) one of the main weaknesses of a sorcerer compared to a wizard. MotAO is +2 for a sorcerer.

sonofzeal
2009-03-29, 09:57 PM
Yeah, +0 for the stormtalon actually does sound about right, if you throw in the comment on the 1 level dip.

As for arcane hierophant... yes, it's an an excellent dual-caster class, possibly the best in the game. But it's still a dual-caster. Is a wizard 3/druid 3/arcane hierophant 10/mystic theurge 4 really BETTER than a full caster 20? You lose 3 caster levels and 7 wild shape/animal companion levels, and gain some MAD. I'd say, built well, it's about on par with the base classes, but not better than them, hence the +0.
Agreed on all points, but I want to be generous and assume that people taking it were already planning on mixing arcane and divine anyway. It really is so much better than the similar options (Mystic Theurge, Geomancer, True Necromancer) that I feel it needs some recognition.



Lists are finally updated! Here's the changes going in, let me know if I've goofed anywhere...

Books
+ Complete Psionic (thank you, Samb!)
+ Frostburn (thank you, tusk!)
+ Magic of Incarnum (thank you, woodenbandman!)
+ Races of the Wild (thank you, CthulhuM and Sirek Inta!)
+ Sandstorm
+ Shadow Magic (thank you, jameswilliamogle!)
+ Stormwrack


Up Two
- Spellwarp Sniper
+ Anarchic Initiate
+ Legendary Captain
+ Necrocarnate (unless your DM limits what you can draw essentia from)
+ Thrallherd
+ Walker in the Waste


Up One
? Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)
- Thrallherd
- Warpriest
+ Arcane Heirophant
+ Ashworm Dragoon
+ Champion of Corellon Larethian
+ Disciple of Thrym
+ Frost Mage (Sorc entry)
+ Illumine Soul
+ Ironsoul Forgemaster
+ Leviathan Hunter
+ Mage of the Arcane Order
+ Master of Shadow
+ Noctumancer
+ Primeval
+ Rimefire Witch
+ Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)
+ Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
+ Scorpion Heritor
+ Skypledged
+ Spellwarp Sniper
+ Umbral Disciple
+ Whisperknife
+ Wildrunner
+ Winterhaunt of Iborighu
+ Zerth Cenobite


Equal
- Hospitaler
- Mage of the Arcane Order
+ Child of the Night
+ Cloud Ancorite
+ Ectopic Adept (but only if your DM uses CPsi nerfs already)
+ Flayerspawn Psychic
+ Frost Mage (Wizard entry)
+ Frost Rager
+ Knight of Iron Glacier
+ Knight of the Pearl
+ Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)
+ Sapphire Hierarch
+ Shadowblade
+ Shadowsmith
+ Soulcaster
+ Stormsinger
+ Totem Rager
+ Master of Masks (general entry)
+ Ruathar
+ Stormcaster
+ Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)
+ Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)
+ Unseen Seer

Down One
+ Cryokineticist
+ Ebon Saint
+ Hospitaler
+ Incandescent Champion
+ Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)
+ Luckstealer
+ Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry)
+ Scarlet Corsair (except with capstone abuse)
+ Sea Witch
+ Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)
+ Warpriest


Down Two
+ Incarnum Blade
+ Spinemeld Warrior
+ Wavekeeper
+ Witchborn Binder

Break
2009-03-29, 11:03 PM
On the other hand, it lets a sorcerer cast all those spells that are too situational to bother learning, overcoming (to a point) one of the main weaknesses of a sorcerer compared to a wizard. MotAO is +2 for a sorcerer.

Sorcerors cannot even qualify for Mage of the Arcane Order; the requirements state that one must be able to prepare and cast arcane spells. It's a stupid limitation, but it's there.

quick_comment
2009-03-29, 11:09 PM
Sorcerors cannot even qualify for Mage of the Arcane Order; the requirements state that one must be able to prepare and cast arcane spells. It's a stupid limitation, but it's there.

Thats what the arcane prepration feat is for.

Break
2009-03-29, 11:11 PM
Ah, my mistake then - that would work. I still think it's a silly limitation, though. :smallwink:

CthulhuM
2009-03-30, 12:00 AM
I would argue that thrallherd should be equal, or maybe +1. Its main class feature is only slightly better than leadership (until you get the capstone) and, as usual, 2 levels of manifesting is a lot to give up.

I'd agree with whoever put anarchic initiate at +1 - it's good, but nothing gamebreaking.

Walker in the waste is ok, but again 2 caster levels is a lot to give up, and the template it gives isn't THAT amazing. Also, again, this is a primary caster PrC, so the standards for +2 should be very high. I'd put it at +1, at best, possibly equal.

Also, perhaps break up Champion of Corellon Larethian into high-dex (+1) and general (+0) entries.

sonofzeal
2009-03-30, 12:21 AM
I would argue that thrallherd should be equal, or maybe +1. Its main class feature is only slightly better than leadership (until you get the capstone) and, as usual, 2 levels of manifesting is a lot to give up.

I'd agree with whoever put anarchic initiate at +1 - it's good, but nothing gamebreaking.

Walker in the waste is ok, but again 2 caster levels is a lot to give up, and the template it gives isn't THAT amazing. Also, again, this is a primary caster PrC, so the standards for +2 should be very high. I'd put it at +1, at best, possibly equal.

Also, perhaps break up Champion of Corellon Larethian into high-dex (+1) and general (+0) entries.
Saying that Thrallherd is "only slightly better than leadership" is like saying that your barbarian ally is "only slightly stronger than Chuck Norris". It may be true, but it's still pretty darn impressive.

Anarchic Initiate is under a lot of debate, and to be honest I haven't even really looked at it myself. Give me a convincing argument why it adds less than the other "Up Two" PrCs, and I'll lower it.

Honestly, I agree with Walker in the Waste, and that was my initial ranking too. However, the ability to be a lich (a horrible template because of the LA, but objectively pretty sweet) without any LA, and with only two lost caster levels... well, I can see why some praise it highly. It's certainly the fastest reasonable path to Lichdom. And, since it's a Cleric PrC, you're not really losing as much as a Wizard would. So I can see it both ways.

Champion of Corellon Larethian... you're probably right, but that's splitting hairs and I don't want double entries for everything. I'd rather leave that one up to the individual's optimizing skill in figuring out how to get the most from the class.

CthulhuM
2009-03-30, 02:03 AM
Saying that Thrallherd is "only slightly better than leadership" is like saying that your barbarian ally is "only slightly stronger than Chuck Norris". It may be true, but it's still pretty darn impressive.

Anarchic Initiate is under a lot of debate, and to be honest I haven't even really looked at it myself. Give me a convincing argument why it adds less than the other "Up Two" PrCs, and I'll lower it.

Honestly, I agree with Walker in the Waste, and that was my initial ranking too. However, the ability to be a lich (a horrible template because of the LA, but objectively pretty sweet) without any LA, and with only two lost caster levels... well, I can see why some praise it highly. It's certainly the fastest reasonable path to Lichdom. And, since it's a Cleric PrC, you're not really losing as much as a Wizard would. So I can see it both ways.

Champion of Corellon Larethian... you're probably right, but that's splitting hairs and I don't want double entries for everything. I'd rather leave that one up to the individual's optimizing skill in figuring out how to get the most from the class.

Eh, well, on the one hand, if you want leadership, you can just take leadership and save yourself 2 levels of casting. On the other hand, you might have trouble hitting the needed leadership score to get the most out of your cohort (whereas you'll never have that problem as a thrallherd) and the thrallherd's cohort is capped a level higher than leadership's is. Throw in the second cohort as the capstone, and I suppose it might actually warrant a +2. It's on the border, though.

Similarly, with walker in the waste, note that it gives you the dry lich template, which is somewhat different from a normal lich. I was going to say it isn't as good, but then I reread it... and it turns out it's actually better. Among other things, it gives you unholy toughness, fast healing, higher turn resistance and +4 wisdom instead of +2 (albeit at the cost of the +2 int from lich, which doesn't matter much since it's a divine casting PRC). So yeah, sure, keep the +2 for clerics. I'd put in a druid entry at +1, since you lose animal companion and wild shape progression.

The anarchic initiate has 2 main class features, aside from its full casting - one increases your powers' damage by 25% (on average - unfortunately its unpredictable, and sometimes decreases your damage, and, as a player, increased randomness is usually not a good thing for you). The other allows them to create breaches into limbo, which take 1d4 rounds to form and basically just disrupt the spellcasting of other people in their area (the version they get at 10th level can also be used to plane shift someone to limbo if they fail a will save). The features are nice (though the randomness is problematic), but again, they aren't gamebreaking. An extra save or die at 15th level is nothing to get too excited about, most casters already have several by then. Compare this to the planar shepard on incantatrix, and it just doesn't stack up.

Samb
2009-03-30, 07:41 AM
I'll make one last plea for anarchic initiate for psion on entry: you get to use bestow power, wild surge to refill your power points at lvl 7 of this PrC. A psion could nova every encounter if they so wished. Wild surge +2 will pay for 2 points of the augmentation of bestow power making you gain 1 pp each time you do this trick. Overchannel cannot do this because it doesn't pay the augmentation costs.

As a wilder entry I can see that it would be only +1. It really only gains features like concealment (for gish types), chaotic surge, bonus on will saves, and the ability to throw creatures into the Limbo. Since wilders could already do the bestow power trick they don't gain as much from this class, but no real lose either.


Adjurant champion unimpressive? With wraithstrike, polymorph, arcane strike and AC boosts this thing is a monster. What entry class did you use? Duskblade? If you compare it to a fighter8/transmuter8 a F4/transmuter2/AbjChamp10 destroys its entry class. Take a look at this build

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Transmuter_Gish_(DnD_Optimized_Character_Build)

I liked the part were he kills the aspect of Amodeus in one full round attack. Lulz

CthulhuM
2009-03-30, 05:46 PM
I think your math is off on the bestow power trick - looks to me like you'd need +3 wild surge to make it work (and that's ignoring the powerpoint loss from psychic enervation, which means you might just drain yourself to 0 PPif you got unlucky). Plus, that's a fairly cheesy optimization trick, and shouldn't really be a criteria for evaluating the PrC.

Also, since someone brought up abjurant champion (which is probably the strongest gish PrC out there, by the way), how exactly do you evaluate a combination PrC that combines classes from two different tier levels? I mean, I guess you could compare a gish to fighter 10/wizard 10, but that's not really a fair comparison - combinations simply don't really work in 3.5 without PrCs built to allow them.

With gish classes, perhaps we could just use a straight duskblade as a baseline (even if that isn't the actual entry class). For some of the weirder combinations though it gets tougher. Is a shadowcaster up one because it's a big boost to a shadowcaster, or down one because it's a big loss to a wizard? Since most of these sorts of combination classes are combining two types of spellcasting (or similar abilities) perhaps we should compare them to a mystic theurge (so tier 2, as a base).

sonofzeal
2009-03-30, 08:39 PM
Also, since someone brought up abjurant champion (which is probably the strongest gish PrC out there, by the way), how exactly do you evaluate a combination PrC that combines classes from two different tier levels? I mean, I guess you could compare a gish to fighter 10/wizard 10, but that's not really a fair comparison - combinations simply don't really work in 3.5 without PrCs built to allow them.

With gish classes, perhaps we could just use a straight duskblade as a baseline (even if that isn't the actual entry class). For some of the weirder combinations though it gets tougher. Is a shadowcaster up one because it's a big boost to a shadowcaster, or down one because it's a big loss to a wizard? Since most of these sorts of combination classes are combining two types of spellcasting (or similar abilities) perhaps we should compare them to a mystic theurge (so tier 2, as a base).
It's a fair question. My personal philosophy is a little bit complicated - I give marks if something makes an otherwise pathetic build possible, but deduct marks if the entry is really painful. So Mystic Theurge is down; it's better than Cleric10/Wizard10, but not by enough, and the entry loses you too much. But Arcane Heirophant is up; it's worse than either Wiz20 or Druid20, but it does a good job of what it's trying to do, even if what it's trying is rather suboptimal in the first place.

For dual-progression PrCs, I'd ask the question - does the class succeed at what it's trying to do, or at what it claims to do? Does it give any real synergy to make the combination work? How would you react if Bob next to you around the gaming table said he's thinking of playing one?

tyckspoon
2009-03-30, 08:54 PM
Adjurant champion unimpressive? With wraithstrike, polymorph, arcane strike and AC boosts this thing is a monster. What entry class did you use? Duskblade? If you compare it to a fighter8/transmuter8 a F4/transmuter2/AbjChamp10 destroys its entry class. Take a look at this build


Wraithstrike, Polymorph, Arcane Strike, and defensive spells aren't granted from the AbjChamp, however. You can't make a serious argument that Abjurant Champion is good because of them when a straight Wizard could also use them for pretty much the same effect- the lower BAB isn't as important when you're making touch attacks with a boosted bonus from your Poly form of choice + spell slots fed to Arcane Strike.

And yes, duh fighter/caster/gish PrC is better than an even split of fighter/caster. Fighter/Caster/AbjChamp is better than Fighter/Caster/Eldritch Knight, but I don't think it's more than a +1 better; in this instance, Abj. Champion would be a strong +1 where Eldritch Knight is a weak +1, but both fulfill the basic requirement of letting you make a functional gish by giving you martial ability+spellcasting advancement. And Ab.Champ is only a five-level class, btw, which is part of why I would say it's still only +1; as good as it is, you can only use it for at most 1/4 of your character's plan.

Salvonus
2009-03-30, 10:28 PM
What tier is something like the Legacy Champion? +0 in normal usage?

Of course, in "abuse" cases, that sucker is +1 or +2. Hellfire Warlock, particularly. Depends on the abuse, I guess.

Thoughts about XPH PrC ratings:
Psion Uncarnate - Is this really +1 tier? I'd say it's +0, given that you lose a whopping 4 levels of Psion progression. It's pretty balanced - you get to run around incorporeal (awesome) but lose 2 bonus feats, 122 PP, 6 powers known, and access to 9th level powers. You also need to spend another feat on Practised Manifester (I swear, that feat is gospel for a PrC'd Psion).

122 PP is... the equivalent of 6 9th level powers and a bit extra. That's a pretty major loss. There are also a LOT of great 9th level spells, but you can actually get around that loss. In return, you get great abilities. It's a well-designed "caster" PrC, in my opinion, as you actually make a trade-off for your cool abilities rather than just getting to run amok with "Base Class++".

If I understand the tier system, you have to compare Psion 10/Uncarnate 10 vs. Psion 20. If the former is better than the latter, then it must be +1 tier (at least). In my opinion, they're roughly equal. Losing 9th level powers isn't a dealbreaker when you get something good in return, but I think the Uncarnate's abilities are only good enough to make up for the loss, rather than actually improving upon the Psion.

Again, exceptionally cool PrC in my opinion. Nonetheless, not an improvement in terms of raw power over the straight Psion.

Cerebremancer (Assuming no entry tricks!) - Are we sure this is -1 tier? I guess it depends on your focus. If you're Wizard-focused, yeah, you're going to run into the classic Theurge problem, minus the usual MAD. Psionics are very different, though, especially with Practised Manifester! The thing is, Psions care more about Manifester Level than anything else. Some of the best powers are Level 2! As long as you have full ML, you can match a straight Psion with regards to lower level powers, just with less endurance within a day.

Consider this in another sense. The Psion Uncarnate is +1 tier according to some (+0 according to me). Going the Uncarnate route loses you 4 levels of manifesting progression, as opposed to only 3 for a Cerebremancer. The Uncarnate gets cool class features, while the Cerebremancer gets 13 levels of Wizard casting!

I'd call it as +0 with Psion focus (i.e. you intend to finish your build with full manifesting advancement), -1 with Wizard, Wilder, or Sorcerer focus.

Elocater - I agree with the tiers, with a minor exception. Psion entry is usually -1 tier, but there is one way I can see it being very useful. That, of course, is the dedicated Metamorphosis Egoist (with Practised Manifester so you don't lose progression on form HD). It's not an amazing PrC for them, but it's not that bad either, as long as you fill the prereqs. A very niche sort of build, though - Metamorphosis-focused Egoist who is heavily into mobility - so -1 is a fair ranking for Psion entry due to lack of synergy and heavy requirements.

(Note to self: Swift Hunter//Elocator gestalt looks interesting. Mm... Two 5 ft. steps in a round. A lot of synergy besides that, too.)

Metamind, PsiFist, Thrallherd, War Mind, Slayer - No comments. Pure agreement from me.

Pyrokineticist - Disagreed. This is severely underrated, especially with the variant 'kineticists (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e). Note that the damage rules are optional. Besides, what on earth resists sonic damage anyway? So what if you get a bit less. Acid is pretty cool too.

The first thing to understand is that it's not a PrC for a full manifester. Any entry into the class from a manifesting class is -1 tier, yes. Agreed.

Still, you can qualify for this class with quite a few "normal" melee classes if you can figure out the skill issues (hint: Martial Study: Diamond Mind works for Concentration) and use a Psionic race (Xeph, Kalashtar, and Maenad aren't bad). If you're a Fighter, the Pyrokineticist (or Sono-/Aceto-, especially without the optional damage rules) is actually not a bad prospect. At least +0 tier, I'd say.

sonofzeal
2009-04-01, 02:28 PM
New books coming up!


Here's my take on Complete Mage (mostly theoretical from my viewpoint)
Abjurant Champion: +1, full casting and full BAB, easy prereqs, nice abilities, but nothing game breaking
Eldritch Disciple: +0, as with any dual progression class, you give up a little of the main classes for some new abilities
Eldritch Theurge: +0, as above
Enlightened Spirit: +0 in a very specific campaign, but for the most part I say -1 since you lose versatility and you really have nowhere to go when you finish the class
Holy Scourge: +0 or a low +1, lose a caster level, gain a very narrow set of abilities
Lyric Thaumaturge: +1, easy entry, gain better casting, lose almost nothing that can't be replicated with spells anyways
Master Specialist: +1, easy entry, full casting, gain new goodies
Nightmare Spinner: +1, easy entry, lose one CL but you gain bonus slots which almost immediately makes up for it, plus some new goodies
Ultimate Magus: +0 or +1 with tricks to maintain high casting progression,
Unseen Seer: +1, it's a full caster with nice abilities that complement your entry because it's clearly designed for a skill/arcane user, and the CL loss on the noncaster base is moot since you took PM to make up for it already
Wild Soul: +1, lose one CL, but gain some spell versatility and some extra summons



OK, here's my attempt at Libris Mortis:

Summary:
Death's Chosen [+0 cohort; -1 PC] (awkward RP requirements yet nice 1lvl dip for melee-oriented cohorts)
Dirgesinger [-2] (a BARD-only PrC w/o spellcasting advancement)
Master of Radiance [-1] (class abilities that often don't make up for that CL loss)
Master of Shrounds [+1 w/ accelerated entry; -1 for normal entry and ECL above 14] (class abilities don't scale well at higher levels)
Pale Master [+0 sorcerer; +1 wizard etc; +2 DN entry] (works well with DN thematically and mechanically; having to choose 2 spells may not suit a sorcerer's best interest yet a good PrC overall nevertheless)
Sacred Purifier [-1] (just doesn't justify 4/5 spellcasting)
True Necromancer [-2 intended entry; +0 via PA] (even worse than MT in terms of requirements but if you like doublies then it's on par with MT; and no, no Ur-priest entry either (domain requirement))


Death's Chosen [+1 if cohort, -1 if PC due to very awkward RP requirement]
Requirements: Easy to qualify mechanically (BAB +5, some 1~2 points in 2 skills) but has an RP requirement and the entire ability of this class revolves around that RP requirement.
So it's a 3-level long full-BAB PrC that gives you some nice (however negligible) abilities including the one that lets him/her/it to be immune to the undead master's AoE abilities. I can see how it could be used to cast Antimagic Field and exempt the cohort to be immune to its effect- making it quite viable if used correctly. Just 1-level dip would be quite a nice addition to a melee cohort build.

Dirgesinger [-2]
Requirements: Not hard to qualify (uses up a feat though)
What have we got here? A bard-only PrC that give some additional uses for bardic music ability that does NOT advance spellcasting. Well it does give you an ability to animate a corpse (simply addes Undead type to it) with HD limit=character level. I think I'll do better with just playing a dread necromancer and fancy it a singer.

Master of Radiance [-1]
Requirements: Easy to qualify (druid entry), Difficult to qualify (cleric entry; 8 ranks in Knowledge (nature) for a class that doesn't exactly have much connection to neither Animal nor Plant domain)
It's a 5-level PrC that has 4/5 spellcasting advancement. While this class lists Turn Undead as one of its 1st-level abilities the text only says that it'll only stack with the existing TU progression (so not an alternative for Sacred Exorcist!). The most significant ability of this class is Radiant Aura that lasts 1 minute and you can use it 3/day- during which you can use Searing Light (lvl 2) and Sunbeam (lvl5; full-round action) at will. Personally think they're pretty lacklustre even in an undead-heavy campaign. Pun intended.

Master of Shrounds [+1 accelerated entry up until around ECL 12-ish; +0~-1 intended entry or starting near ECL 14]
Requirements: Hard to qualify (uses 2 feats that you may or may not want, you also need to wait till level 7 if you go pure cleric)
This is a 10-level PrC with 9/10 spellcasting. You get extra rebuking (which is always nice for a DMM cleric) and Summon Undead (Sp) ability summoning a number of incorporeal undead creatures. For those of you who ain't familiar with the accelerated entry into this class this class requires +5 Base Will Save as one of its prerequisites (other requirements can be met as low as 2nd-level w/ bonus feat). It means with only 2 levels of Cleric and 1 level of any class that has good Will Save you can qualify for it at level 4! So beginning at 5th level you're summoning a Shadow (CR 3) with all its create spawn ability intact and if your DM's as open-minded as mine you'll be able to wreck some havok much earlier than intended (level 8).
However all these nice boosts fade shortly after you hit your last level in this PrC as the incorporeal undeads don't have any special progression and with plenty of Ghost Touch weapons the spectres/shadows/whatever will quickly, very quickly become redundant.
(Oh and the reason why it's +1 not +2 is that it isn't exactly on par with Planar Shepherd or its ilks)

Pale Master [+0 for sorcerers (limited use spell requirements); +1 Wizards etc (CHA usually dump stat to pull of 10th-level ability) and +2 to Dread Necromancer entry]
Requirements: Not hard to qualify (burn 1 useless feat, need 2 spells that you may or may not want and negligible RP requirement)
10-lvl PrC w/ 9/10 casting progression; the 1st level's a dead level as stiff as the doorknob- but wait till level 2 and even level 9 or 10! Animate Dead as spell-like ability means no more need for those onyx, 9th-level free undead cohort is just so nice and one of the capstone abilities (Deathless Master's Touch) allows you to create limitless number of zombies under your full control. Of course you'll still need high enough CHA to really pull it off and has size limit but it's not that bad of a limitation really *cough* dread necromancer *cough*.

Sacred Purifier [-1]
Requirements: Easy to qualify (since Extra Turning's a good feat for every DMM-using clerics; if not, rather hard to qualify)
Libris Mortis (Libre Mortum?) must have something for screwing up spellcasting progressions. Oh yes this one's a 5-level PrC w/ 4/5 progression. Anyways, despite losing 1 CL, it doesn't really give you much of a benefit apart from those revolving around using your Turn attempts. Heck, as though we'll have enough TU uses left after our daily buffing! Even those abilities- greater turning (ONCE per day), +2d6 damage to undead creatures for 1 round by spending a turning attempt and AoE ability dealing 10d6 damage to nearby undead... with 2 TU uses.
That CL loss ain't worth it.

True Necromancer [-2; +0 if entry via Precocious Apprentice is allowed]
Requirements: Very hard to qualify (not even illumian trick works but Precocious Apprentice might work since it specifically calls for a spell)
So a doubly that advances only one side of spellcasting class for the first 2 levels. Riiiiiiight. It even requires Death domain which isn't exactly the brightest jewel in the crown. But then again, if you could go (using PA) Cleric 4/Wizard (or whatever) 1/TN 14/Mystic Theurge 1 then you'll have CL 18 for cleric and 15th-level spellcasting for your arcane side. Of course it'd still mean you'll be 1 spell level behind pure cleric but after level 19 it's really not that bad at all.
The rest of its abilities are some handy (yet duplicable) abilities and Create (Greater) Undead as spell-like ability that still requires you to provide the material components. What?
(I didn't give it +1 though since not many games start above 19th-level the point at which one can cast 9th-level divine spells)


I don't think I'll go into undead PrCs :)



Here's a bite at Race of Destiny.

Chameleon: Nice class is nice. And versatile. +1.

Loredelver: 9/10 casting, 2 good saves, (greater)Arcane sight at will, spontaneously cast some utility spells. +0 for Wizards, +1 for everyone else.

Menacing Brute: Looks like a "scary" freegan. One thing stands out of this class: At 4th, you get +4 on confirming crits. Every time. I can see a (probably weak)+1 for Fighters.

Outcast Champion: Class for half-breeds(elf, ork, ogre) that is only good for 1 level dip. Logical entry seems to be Bard. Allies within 30 ft get a plus on will save equal to your class level. +0 as dip, -1 for more than 1 level.

Scar Enforcer: Overall lackluster class. Biggest shiny is Hide in Plain Sight. +0 for Rogue(its intended entry class), -1 for everything higher.

Shadow Sentinel: Illumian class. You get reserve point for your slightly inferior Weapon of Legacy(tm) to perform stuff mostly can be duplicated by magic of somekind. +0 for gishes.

Urban Soul: Street cred, yo. weak +1.



Dun-dun-dun!!Planar Handbook!!11oneoneone :lol :lol

Defiant: ......How do they manage to churn out this kind of atrocity? It does not advance casting of any kind. If you are a Cleric, you actually LOSE your casting, up to NINE levels. If you are not a caster, therefore you NEED Divine being cast on you, and you get resistance on them. This class is an officially no-go zone for anyone not wish to gimp their character.-OVER9000!!! (Seriously)

Doomguard: Improved Sunder as prerequisite(ewww), 5/10 casting of any kind, smite-lite, 3 bonus feats, like a Black guard, except bent on destroying stuff(and magic), +0 on Tier 4. -1 on anything higher.

Fatemaker: Seems intended for Bard. Extremely short list of Cha-based casting, get 3 point of Charisma, once per day(eventually twice), add class level to damage, to hit, or skill check. Lame capstone. Good for dip. +1.

Visionary Seeker: Easy, easy entry. 5/10 casting. Class level to Divination spells' CL. Duplicate ANY spell with expense 1/day(eventually 2/day). +0 for 1(maybe 2) level dip to Diviner. -1 for longer.

Ardent Dilettant: Seems intended for bard, (maybe) factotum. Entry goes steeper as you gain level. Another version of Bardic Knowledge. Enthall 1/day. 3 bonus feats. Once per day, Duplicate spell subject to. Nice capstone. +1.

Cipher Adept: 3 entry feat. Instinct mobile beat stick. +0.

Chaotician: Rather easy entry. 50% miss chance lasts class level rounds. Sound-based AMF with 10 ft radius. 1/day reroll, self or others. +1 for beat-sticks.

Astral Dancer: For monks. 3 entry feats. Overall unimpressive. +0.

Elemental Warrior: Element based smite-like. Weak +1.




What, 3 days after, and nobody gives a ****?

Anyway, Here's a review of Race of the Dragon.

Disciple of the Eye: Intended for Monks. Swift action to Shaken(sub-par DC), shaken attack roll target with HD lower than you, get dark vision 120ft, blind sense 30ft(not stackable). Weak +1.

Dracolexi: For spontaneous arcane casters. Somewhat weird entry requirements. 9/10 arcane casting, 1 bonus feat(either Eschew Material or Still spell). 7th level lets you regain your highest spell slot 1/day. Lets you get your Powerwords 1 level earlier(8th to 7th), and you get to ignore Silence and DARKNESS!!111(yawn). +1 for Bard, weak +0 for Sorcerer.

Dragon Devotee: You can't have Draconic templates to enter this class. 2/5 Sorc-only casting(ewww). Although it is justified to give up 1 CL to get +2 on your Charisma. +1 as a dip, -1 for going farther.

Dragonheart Mage: 8/10 casting. You get to trade your spell slot for breath attack(1st class level=2d6, 6th=2d8, 10th=3d6). And you get 3 Bonus Dragon feats. -1 for Sorcerer. +0 for Bard and everyone else.

Singer of Concordance: Name would imply this is a class for Bards, but this is actually for Cleric of Io. Full casting, 1st level get you Immunity to first compulsion effect of the day(+4 saving throw afterwards, which your allies get if within 10ft). 1 bonus Domain at 2nd level. 5th get you Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. 6th get you another 1d8 of your healing. 8th get you Dimensional Anchor. Capstone seems to imply unlimited planar traveling for the whole group(to a from the globe). +1 for 2 level dip. +0 for longer.


Battlesmith: +0, focused on crafting, nothing extraordinary
Blade Bravo: +1, solid overall
Cragtop Archer: +1, solid abilities for any archer
Dawncaller: -1, looks nice at first, but then you realize you don't actually gain anything useful (early enough to matter) and you lose casting
Deepwarden: +1, pretty solid even past a 2-level dip
Divine Prankster: +1, it's full casting and you gain new abilities and lose nothing (assuming cleric entry)
Earth Dreamer: +1, full casting, earth glide is a powerful ability
Goliath Liberator: +0
Iron Mind: -1 (+0 if ardent with practiced manifester), only gets 8/10 manifesting, mettle of will is nice though
Peregrine Runner: +0, gain skirmish, climb, more speed, slow fall
Runesmith: +1, if you want to play a dwarf gish in full plate, then this is a no brainer
Shadowcraft Mage: +2, do I even need to explain this one? Even if it were 4/5 it would still be up there.
Stoneblessed: I give this a +1 because I rate it not on its own but as an enabler to get into other PrCs
Stonedeath Assassin: +0
Stonespeaker Guardian: +0, full casting and good abilities, but it's hard to improve on a druid

Salvonus
2009-04-01, 08:45 PM
RotD comments:

Dracolexi - Not too impressive for a Bard, either. I'd say +0 tier across the board. Draconic Words are relatively mediocre when you consider that you're giving up Bardic Music progression.

Dragon Devotee - Haha! Dear, dear me. This class isn't intended for Sorcerers! Also, take note of the fact that it gives you two levels of Sorcerer casting if you didn't have any in the first place. It's intended for non-casting classes, essentially, and is an absolutely excellent PrC in that regard. +1 tier, with a note to the effect that it's not a Sorcerer PrC at all.

Dragonheart Mage - Uh... No, no, this isn't better for a Bard than a Sorcerer. :smallconfused: -1 tier for Bards... You give up two CL, Bardic Music, BAB, skill points, and Bardic Knack/Knowledge for three Draconic Feats and a breath weapon that depends on you giving up spell slots... No, this will never be an even trade for a Bard. :smalleek:

Singer of Concordance - Um, why not just call it +1 tier across the board? It's a "free lunch" PrC, thanks to Dragon Magic's Dragonblood-subtype base races. It's not like all those class feature you're getting from Cleric 20 are burning a hole in your pocket. :smalltongue: The capstone is actually pretty brilliant - standard action escape for you and your party from virtually any bad situation that doesn't involve an AMF. :smalltongue: Furthermore, it's a lovely place to rest and recharge, or even to spend downtime if you're so inclined. The Aspects, while not mind-blowing, are fairly solid abilities. Why not call it +1 tier? :smallsmile:

Planar Handbook:
Defiant is only -1. Situational class for a fighter-type, could be useful in certain settings. A Warforged Defiant isn't too bad if you're fighting against a church. :smalltongue:

Fatemaker... I disagree here. This class is for people who want to be Bards, but sadly aren't gifted with musical talent - I mean, look at the Aura of Confidence and compare that to Inspire Courage; quite a bit of overlap. Basically, this is a charismatic Rogue PrC. And, frankly, it's a good one if that's your niche. +1 for Rogues, +0 for Bards (my usual complaint of screwing over your Bardic Music applies here).

Ardent Dilettante - Cool class, but maybe +0? I fail to see how it actually IMPROVES on a Bard or Factotum 20, especially given some of those requirements. It's a solid option, but probably not better than the straight version of the most logical entry classes.

Salvonus
2009-04-01, 09:15 PM
RoD comments:

Outcast Champion - Dip is kinda useless, actually. That's only a +1 bonus... :smallconfused: For a Bard, it's a useless class. However, it's not half bad for a Fighter; easy entry (8 ranks in a class skill) and no real downside. Only one ability is actually based around Cha, and it's not actually required. Full BAB progression and improved skills; not bad if you're a Fighter, really (+0 or weak +1 for them).

Shadow Sentinel - +0 for Tier 4, you mean. :smalltongue: Useless class for a gish!

Urban Soul - +1 only in an urban campaign. -1 in a non-urban campaign.

Samb
2009-04-01, 10:59 PM
Unless running a really evil campaign I doubt PC will need to know the rankings of the PrCs in BoVD. But I love monte Cook's work and DMs are free to use these PrCs to challenge his players. Since this is for bad guys once a day moves increase in usefulness, esp if the NPC is a BBEG.

This was pretty tough because the summoned devils could in turn summon other devils hence all PrC are under the assumption that they do lose this ability when summoned by a mortal. If you want to be mean then add 1 to all the rankings. Need clarification on this one.

Here are the PrCs or vile darkness:

Cancer mage: +1 love the flavor but it is pretty nasty in use as well. Entry class seems to be a ranger, which has ways to infect targets, control them, even inhabit them indefinitely. Cure disease makes them less useful.

Demonlogist: -1, needs to be able to cast lvl 3 spells to qualify but restarts your spell/CL progression. Some things like +4 to summons is nice and no SR on charm and dominate is really nice, but in the end you lose all yyour previous hard work.

Diabolist: +1 full casting is great but the entry feats are not (esp evil brand). This PrC would mostly benefit an evoker but diabolism deals evil damage for all your spells so it can be used in other casters as well. Being able to deal vile damage is not something to underestimate.

Dis of Amodeus: +2 lose of 4 CL but this might not be a mage entry to work but I picked illusionist as the entry class but a telepath would work just as well (or better). Hellcats are nice but can range from 9-24 HD so i'm not sure how to rate that, but only one of the Disciples that can summon more than one of them. Many save or lose that involve controling others or turning weaker evil NPCs against you. In the right setting there is no limit to what he can throw at you.

Dis of Baalzebul: +1 with rogue entry. Lose of 2d6 but you get more non-combat options (tongue of the devil) and other once per day stuff. The best of them is the ability to summon bone and horned devils (up to 45HD).

Dis of Disapater: +2 with fighter entry. full BAB, Iron lore (AKA trap finding for iron traps) is pretty useless since PCs rarely use traps (even in their own strongholds), but the rest of the stuff is pretty good. Iron hews is a nice bonus to damage, rusting grasp will have your PCs crying, and iron power stacks with improved critical, improves your AR and damage. Iron power is really the best of that bunch and can turn a regular greatsword into a crit hitting machine like a kurki. Now that is heavy hitting indeed. Later on Dis of Dispater get iron skin and iron body giving it good defense as well. Erinyes may not be the most powerful devils but they are sexy and they fly. Great way to scare your PCs.


Dis of Mammon: +0 this is meant for huckster rogues or bards. No sneak attack progression or spells, and you need to do a degrading sexual act..... like 2 devils and a cup type stuff. You do gain a lot in terms of defense by diverting attacks and spells, and in money and items via cheating and stealing. This NPC is more likely to completely screw your PCs up by betrayal or other underhanded means. On the battlefield he is not all that great but he can summon bone and horn devils to do the fighting for him, or disarm you via his steal or take object. He could be a +1 with creative use.

Dis of Mephistophheles: +1 another full BAB. Almost like a vile pyrokinetist, BoVD says casters go for this PrC but a fighter or barbarian seems to make more sense. I don't really see how hellfire is different from regular fire and can't find the spell so this could be +2 for all I know. Capstone gives DR 30/+1 and deals damage to attackers. Way to defend and attack at once. Summons barbed devils, which are not bad.

Lifedrinker: -1 could be -2 but the class features are really nice. NO CL progression at all. This flies in the face of logic since most of its special moves are free metamagic feats. I guess a DM could be mean and just make a vampire mage 20/ lifedrinker 10 but that NPC would be almost invincible.

Mortal hunter: +1 (almost +2) full BAB, bonuses to all saves (esp will saves), smite any mortal, mass stun, death attack (no waiting 3 rounds!), polymorph at will (well kind of) and a host nasty spells, this PrC makes assassins look like bitches. Mortals means any living beings, so dragons count. Entry class would be a ranger to stack favored enemy. The fact that this class has favored enemy as "all living things" makes him very deadly.

Souleater: -1 This was a tough one since I didn't know what the entry class was. I settled for psiwarrior that used claw attacks (king of smack type) since preqs were alertness (via psicrystal) and weapon focus (natural attack). Psiwarrior will lose 3 feats taking this PrC for some temporary bonuses on STR, DEX, saves. Only good thing about this PrC is getting slave wrights at lvl 9, the rest is not worth the lose in feats.

Thrall of demogoron: +1 maybe +2. Entry class should be a templated NPC with a lvl 1 spell like ability, mage dips/multiclassed lose too much CL. The ability to take an extra 2 full rounds of actions makes it a +1 all by itself. A bunch of save or lose/suck and extended range AND limited wish make it very strong.

Thrall of Graz'zt: -1 entry class sorcerer. Lose of 4 CL for some bonuses on damage. Not all that great.

Thrall of Juiblex: +2 full BAB, immune to crits and sneak attacks and [B]polymorph at will[B]..... for a barbarian raging..... pretty scary. And you get a bunch of special attacks that deal lots of damage (corrosive spew 8d6 cone attack). If you want to kill your PCs this might be the PrC to use.

Thrall of Orcus: +0 full BAB, fighter can meet the requirements by lvl 4. Gain some immunities, summon undead, AoO that lowers AR and damage, and most importantly wings. Overall, not much more than a straight fighter.

Vermin lord: -1 lose of 4 CL for some added defense and control of bugs. Very meh PrC.

Warrior of Darkness: +1 full BAB, uses vile medicines to boost his combat (roid rage!!!!). With high enough CHR is can do some nasty stuff (full attack after moving/charging, +to any stat, +to movement etc, bonus feats). With the right combo this guy is pretty decent.

Again I need clarification on if the demons/devils summoned can still summon others of its kind. That might change the tiers a bit.

Chronos
2009-04-02, 11:09 PM
Singer of Concordance - Um, why not just call it +1 tier across the board? It's a "free lunch" PrC, thanks to Dragon Magic's Dragonblood-subtype base races.On the other hand, you get less BAB and HP, which might be a downside if you're planning on going zilla, and you trade good Fort for good Ref, which is significantly less valuable. It's probably still on the high end of +0, since it works better than straight cleric for at least some playstyles, but it's perhaps not as versatile.

Zaq
2009-04-02, 11:42 PM
Souleater: -1 This was a tough one since I didn't know what the entry class was. I settled for psiwarrior that used claw attacks (king of smack type) since preqs were alertness (via psicrystal) and weapon focus (natural attack). Psiwarrior will lose 3 feats taking this PrC for some temporary bonuses on STR, DEX, saves. Only good thing about this PrC is getting slave wrights at lvl 9, the rest is not worth the lose in feats.

Whoa whoa whoa, you're missing the huge draw of the class. See that level 1 ability? Every touch you make (which seems like an attack action to me, especially with natural weapon focus being a prereq of the class) bestows a negative level. No save. At will. All day, every day. The more attacks you make, the more negative levels you bestow. Hell, since they're touch attacks, maybe even a monk would work with this. The fact that at 7th level they become twice as effective is just disgusting. Negative levels, particularly no-save negative levels, are disgustingly powerful debuffs. Casters lose spells. Beatsticks lose BAB. Everyone loses saves and HD. Every single one makes them simultaneously less able to counterattack you and less able to defend against you... they become weaker in every way. Soul Eater is easily a +1 or +2 in my mind, simply because negative levels are Just. That. Good. The other abilities are cute, but not the point of the class. Negative levels at will = crazywtfbbq. Multiple negative levels at will from multiple attacks and/or level 7? Hax.

olentu
2009-04-02, 11:56 PM
Whoa whoa whoa, you're missing the huge draw of the class. See that level 1 ability? Every touch you make (which seems like an attack action to me, especially with natural weapon focus being a prereq of the class) bestows a negative level. No save. At will. All day, every day. The more attacks you make, the more negative levels you bestow. Hell, since they're touch attacks, maybe even a monk would work with this. The fact that at 7th level they become twice as effective is just disgusting. Negative levels, particularly no-save negative levels, are disgustingly powerful debuffs. Casters lose spells. Beatsticks lose BAB. Everyone loses saves and HD. Every single one makes them simultaneously less able to counterattack you and less able to defend against you... they become weaker in every way. Soul Eater is easily a +1 or +2 in my mind, simply because negative levels are Just. That. Good. The other abilities are cute, but not the point of the class. Negative levels at will = crazywtfbbq. Multiple negative levels at will from multiple attacks and/or level 7? Hax.

Energy drain is a supernatural ability and I believe that supernatural abilities take a standard action to use unless noted otherwise in the ability description.

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 12:00 AM
Whoa whoa whoa, you're missing the huge draw of the class. See that level 1 ability? Every touch you make (which seems like an attack action to me, especially with natural weapon focus being a prereq of the class) bestows a negative level. No save. At will. All day, every day. The more attacks you make, the more negative levels you bestow. Hell, since they're touch attacks, maybe even a monk would work with this. The fact that at 7th level they become twice as effective is just disgusting. Negative levels, particularly no-save negative levels, are disgustingly powerful debuffs. Casters lose spells. Beatsticks lose BAB. Everyone loses saves and HD. Every single one makes them simultaneously less able to counterattack you and less able to defend against you... they become weaker in every way. Soul Eater is easily a +1 or +2 in my mind, simply because negative levels are Just. That. Good. The other abilities are cute, but not the point of the class. Negative levels at will = crazywtfbbq. Multiple negative levels at will from multiple attacks and/or level 7? Hax.
Agreed. The natural entry for Souleater as a PC isn't PsiWar, it's Monk. Monks have the special ability to have their unarmed strike count as a natural weapon, so entry is pretty easy for them. And look at the class - full BAB, all good saves, MASSIVE offensive danger due to serial leveldraining, and healthy boosts to all your relevant combat stats. The PrC, at level 1, gains an ability that's better in every important way than the Shadow Sun Ninja capstone, and this is ToB we're talking about.

Honestly, I'm tempted to put this as +2.

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 12:45 AM
(edit - blarg, double post)

Salvonus
2009-04-03, 02:35 AM
On the other hand, you get less BAB and HP, which might be a downside if you're planning on going zilla, and you trade good Fort for good Ref, which is significantly less valuable. It's probably still on the high end of +0, since it works better than straight cleric for at least some playstyles, but it's perhaps not as versatile.

Hm, I dunno. The common argument for BAB is that you're going to be using Divine Power anyway, but the HP and save issues are good points. I still think it's probably a +1, but I admit that it could be considered close. Ultimately, it's not a 'zilla PrC, though... Hm.

Samb
2009-04-03, 07:25 AM
Ok as a dip, souleater is great, but what of the rest of it? I might move it to 0 due go what guys said though, but we are not disscussing dips here. Monk entry......unarmed strike=natrual attack? If so then that would be ideal.
Edit: I'm starting to think this is +2 myself now. Flurry with a lvl7 souleater is pretty bad.

monty
2009-04-03, 09:32 AM
Monk entry......unarmed strike=natrual attack? If so then that would be ideal.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Yeah, that.

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 03:25 PM
Ok as a dip, souleater is great, but what of the rest of it? I might move it to 0 due go what guys said though, but we are not disscussing dips here. Monk entry......unarmed strike=natrual attack? If so then that would be ideal.
Edit: I'm starting to think this is +2 myself now. Flurry with a lvl7 souleater is pretty bad.
Why take the rest of it?

- because full BAB and all good saves (along with reasonable HD and decent skill pointsw) is solid?

- because +2 enhancement to all saves and skillchecks is very very hard to come by?

- because a permanent +4 to physical stats (at the cost of a Bag of Tricks) saves a lot of money and item slots?

- because you can turn a dangerous level-draining power into a devastating one?

- because gaining a limited Shapechange at level 11 (well, 13 for monk entry) is wtf, even if you have to kill the creature first?

Yeah.... :P

Samb
2009-04-03, 04:34 PM
Must....keep BoVD away from DM.

I'll recommend soul eater for +2. Could king of smack build still be done with this PrC?

quick_comment
2009-04-03, 07:37 PM
- because gaining a limited Shapechange at level 11 (well, 13 for monk entry) is wtf, even if you have to kill the creature first?



Thats the best part!

Kill the guard, take his place.

Kill the king, rule his country.

Kill some ridiculously powerful monster, and shapechange into that, even <i>if it has more than 25 HD</i>

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 07:49 PM
Thats the best part!

Kill the guard, take his place.

Kill the king, rule his country.

Kill some ridiculously powerful monster, and shapechange into that, even <i>if it has more than 25 HD</i>
My personal vote's for starting a Choker farm. :smallamused:

Salvonus
2009-04-03, 08:22 PM
Is there actually any other class with full BAB and Saves? :smallconfused:

Isn't monk entry a bit debatable in terms of RAI? I could see some DMs blocking it, at least. Well, it doesn't actually matter. Warforged can get a bunch of natural attacks. Pretty much anyone can with the right splats. It's a +2 regardless. :smalltongue:

quick_comment
2009-04-03, 10:27 PM
Is there actually any other class with full BAB and Saves? :smallconfused:


Dragon HD.

Salvonus
2009-04-03, 10:30 PM
Those aren't particularly accessible without a bunch of LA. :smalltongue:

monty
2009-04-03, 10:36 PM
Dragon HD.

Also, Outsider HD.

Also also, I've been convinced to play a Soul Eater now. What's a good race (stupid nonhumanoid requirement)? Starting at ECL 9, if it matters.

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 10:40 PM
Also, Outsider HD.

Also also, I've been convinced to play a Soul Eater now. What's a good race (stupid nonhumanoid requirement)? Starting at ECL 9, if it matters.
Some ideas: Elan, Tiefling, Gnoll, Necropolitan. Viability varies, but all can qualify without too much hassle.

monty
2009-04-03, 10:52 PM
Some ideas: Elan, Tiefling, Gnoll, Necropolitan. Viability varies, but all can qualify without too much hassle.

Necropolitan wouldn't work, because it's not living. I feel stupid now for not thinking of Tiefling, because it fits the flavor I have in mind perfectly.

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 11:21 PM
Necropolitan wouldn't work, because it's not living. I feel stupid now for not thinking of Tiefling, because it fits the flavor I have in mind perfectly.
....and now I want to play a Sprite Souleater. Greater Invisible Level Drain ftw!

Salvonus
2009-04-03, 11:24 PM
Warforged is good. You start off with a Slam attack, and can pick up Bite attack (om nom nom nom) through Jaws of Death and a second Slam attack through the aptly-named "Second Slam". That's three extra natural attacks, which means as many as 6 extra negative levels. :smallbiggrin:

monty
2009-04-03, 11:56 PM
Warforged is good. You start off with a Slam attack, and can pick up Bite attack (om nom nom nom) through Jaws of Death and a second Slam attack through the aptly-named "Second Slam". That's three extra natural attacks, which means as many as 6 extra negative levels. :smallbiggrin:

So, a soul-stealing robot. I like that idea.

quick_comment
2009-04-04, 12:59 AM
You could fluff it as "he just wants to be a real boy. Wont you give him a soul?"

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-04, 03:52 AM
Dare I mention a tiefling Souleater/Mortal Hunter?

May as well pitch in for BoED. I don't think anyone's done that yet...?
EDIT: Nevermind. Hopefully it'll provide another basis for comparison?

Anointed Knight: +1: Best as a Paladin entry, since their Cha synergies with getting better weapon and personal anointings. Doesn't let you go back to Paladin, but that's what other prestige classes are for. Need the Ancestral Relic feat, which certainly isn't a bad feat option. Much like the Warrior of Darkness from BoVD with the magic alchemy, and of similar power. Three bonus feats. Solid.

Apostle of Peace: +1 (-1 for Vows are a problem for the party): Level 7 entry with Concentration 10 ranks, and four wasted (and painful) feats. No logical entry class, since the casters don't progress. Decent skill list with 4 + Int; will serve very well as 'face.' Cleric saves. Grants 9th level casting at level 10 (potentially at 9th with bonus spells), which includes gate, mass heal and miracle. Turns undead and eventually fiends, calm emotions by touch. Very difficult RP-wise, but if that's accounted for, pretty good. Otherwise, very annoying for the violent party.
EDIT: Didn't notice the poverty and armor restrictions. They are very silly sometimes.

Beloved of Valarian: +1 (fighter/paladin entry), +0 (other martial entry): I'm an utter sucker for unicorn riders, but I'll try to be fair. BAB +7 requirement, along with Mounted Combat, Sacred Vow and Vow of Chasity. Limited to Good females. Logical entry: any martial class. Good Fort & BAB. Own casting progression, going to 4th level and reading like a paladin's. Unicorn to ride at 1st, ethereal jaunt 1/day at 2nd, uncanny dodge at 4th, celestial charger at 6th, capstone: mass baleful polymorph, 30ft burst. Better than staying paladin or fighter, but equal with barbarian or ranger. Very flavorful.

Celestial Mystic: +1: LG, three crap feats for entry, 4th level spells to enter, along with a bunch of Knowledge skills, including (religion], which hedges out the sorcerer an extra level. Wizard 7. 4 + Int skills, but nothing impressive on the list. 9/10 casting, with 1st being sadpanda. Boatload of nice resistances and immunities, mostly what celestials get (immunity to death effects at 3rd is nice). Able to cast more powerful exalted spells; [archon] type. Limited bardic knowledge at 5th, improved lay on hands at 7th, arcane bolt a la archmage, SR 20 and DR 10/evil at 9th, capstone: 30ft aura of fast healing 2. A hodgepodge of good abilities, certainly better than wizard levels. I'd put them collectively above one level of casting, but that's just me.

Champion of Gwynharwyf: +2: Exalted Barbarian 6, with one crap feat to enter. Gain 4th level casting from Paladin list. Rage stacks with barbarian, smite evil as paladin, divine grace, cast while raging (CoG spells only), DR at a faster rate than the barbarian, capping at DR 5/-. Effective frightful presence while raging. Resistance to acid, cold & shock 5 at 5th, 10 at 10th. Immune to charms and compulsions at 7th. Absolutely no reason for an exalted barbarian not to take this class.

Defender of Sealtiel: +1: Martial character 7 to enter, along with three useless feats. Listen, Sense Motive and Spot as class skills. Good Fort and Will. Defensive stance as dwarven defender. Bunch of so-so spell like abilities. Permanent magic circle against evil at 2nd. If you use protection from evil as written (natural attacks from evil creatures don't work), the class gets a power boost. Not bad, but boring on the fluff side.

Emissary of Barachiel: +0, +1 (optimizing diplomacy): Another face character. One useless feat, since Words of Creation is situationally useful. But before you think bard entry, LG only. 4 + Int skills, again with face only skills. I can see it for a diplomancer. Get a variant bardic music that effectively acts as a lesser holy word. Up to 4th level spells, with a bardish list. All in all, not great, but for a non-bard who wanted bardiness...
EDIT: I'm not seeing the part where this is amazing. The Calling is good, maybe a +1 if you pump your Diplomacy, but in that case you're a diplomancer, so it doesn't really improve your power. I'll send it to +1 with an optimized diplomacy skill.

Exalted Arcanist: +0: Casting: spontaneous 3rd level. Sorcerer 6 gets in, but then the two required metamagic feats are less useful. Five level class; 4/5 casting, and learning 2 spells of any level at 1st.. Gains exalted spells and eventually sanctified (5th) to 'spells known' list. 2nd level let's you use one of the required metamagics without increasing casting time, and 4th level does the same for the other. Bonus exalted feats. Only good for the extra spells, really. Better than taking Sorcerer 20, but not by much.

Fist of Raziel: +2: One crap feat, Paladin 6 or LG Cleric 8 entry. 9/10 casting progression. Constant magic circle against evil. Gains smite that stacks with paladin levels, along with extra goodies. Every odd level grants an extra use, along with an extra ability. 1st: good aligned weapon. 3rd: always confirms 5th: counts as holy 7th: +2d8 vs evil outsiders and undead 9th: chains to 5 targets w/in 30ft, doing 2d6, or 2d8 if evil outsider/undead, Ref half. And then it gains 9/10 casting, a decent exalted feat, double damage against evil outsiders and constructs and the capstone: every weapon wielded counts as holy. Unspeakably good, especially for clerics. It improves Clericzilla!

Initiate of Pistis Sophia: +0: Monk 6 entry required, 2 crap feats. Advances typical Monk abilities, gains smite evil, uncanny dodge and improved UD, improved evasion, gains 'bonus' feats: any vow, which might actually make you worse. Capstone: transforms into native outsider with DR 10/evil. Better DR than Monk 20, but loses Diamond Soul and Abundant Step.

Lion of Talsid: -1 (Druid entry), +0 (Ranger entry): Druid 6 or Ranger 8 (assuming 2nd level bonus spell) entry. Requires one wasted feat. 10/10 casting, 3/4 BAB, good Fort and Will. Advances animal companion and limited wild shape (large and tiny). Scent at 2nd level, Pounce at 5th level. A hit for Druids on wild shape; 5 levels aren't terrible for a dual-wielding ranger.

Prophet of Erathaol: -1: Four wasted feats, 4th level spells to enter, LG only. 9/10 casting, with a versatile ability (ecstasy). All good saves. Really, not worth the feats.

Risen Martyr: -2: level 6 entry, really any class. Poor BAB, Fort, Ref. Good Will, d12 HD. Lose Con score (become deathless type). Grants a lot of defensive abilities, and would seem to be good for Sorcerers due to Cha increases, but no casting progression. Honestly, only good for Monks who not want to die again. No offensive capability whatsoever, either spell or blade.

Sentinel of Bharrai: +1: level 5 entry with two wasted feats; Wizards or Clerics with the Knowledge Domain are the only ones who can enter then (arcane and nature 8 ranks). 10/10 casting. Gain energy resistance 10, pick your elements. Polymorph into a bear at 3rd, dire bear at 7th. Lay on hands, can summon 1d6 max hp dire bears 1/week at 9th. Capstone: 1/day: quickened lightning storm. Easy entry for some combat versatility and no lost spells.
EDIT: Good, but not Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil good.

Skylord: +0: level 7 martial entry. Nasty flying mount (doesn't stack with paladin). Ride bonuses, diminish effects of winds, etc. Capstone: summon CR 16 tempest (MM2) for 1 minute, 1/week. Useful, but not good.

Slayer of Domiel: +0: LG Rog 5 entry, one wasted feat. Good assassin, effectively. Death touch is useless, but full sneak attack progression, divine grace at 3rd level and improved evasion at 5th level. Also, 4th level casting, with effectively the assassin spell list. Equal to the assassin without spell compendium.

Stalker of Kharash: +0 (Ranger entry), -1 (Other entry): moderate entry requirements for stealthy types, requires three wasted feats (Track is one, so Rangers are up one). Ranger skills, Good BAB and Ref saves. Progresses ranger casting only 10/10. Scent ability that only works against evil creatures. 3.0 favored enemy +1 against evil opponents, Hide in Plain Sight at 4th level, Smite evil starting at 6th. Not terribly impressive.

Swanmay: -1 (Ranger entry), -2 (Druid entry): A primary fluff-based class. Druid or Ranger 5 entry with two wasted feats. Good BAB, Fort. 9/10 casting progression. Polymorph into swan, one favored enemy, charm person and monster as spell-like abilities, speak with animals and plants at will. Capstone: fey type, DR 10/cold iron. Okay for rangers, decreases the wild shape of druids.

Sword of Righteousness: -1: martial entry 6, plus one wasted feat and one exalted feat. Good BAB, Fort and Will. 4 + Int skills, with a Paladin class list. Three-level class, granting a bonus exalted feat each level. There aren't just enough good exalted feats to justify this for most builds.

Troubadour of Stars: -1 (bard entry), -2 (sorcerer entry): Bard 10 (assuming bonus 4th level spell) or Sorcerer 9 (for Perform 6 ranks). 6 + Int skills, with Bard list. 5/10 casting. Advances bardic music, including inspire courage. Decent alternate bardic music abilities. Capstone: Outsider (native), DR 10/evil. Crap for Sorcerers, not much better for bards.
EDIT: Not sure where the 'bard's can't finish it pre-epic' came from. If they don't have Cha 18, sure, but otherwise...

Vassal of Bahamut: +1 (if dragon-specific campaign), +0 (normal campaign): LG martial character 7, with two wasted feats and slaying a juvenile or older red dragon solo. 4th level spells, with diminished paladin list. Granted armor is good (mwk chain shirt with base AC +8). Gets extra gp (+2000gp at 2nd, +5000gp at 5th, +8000gp at 8th). Does extra damage verses evil dragons, including a fire shield effect. Half the extra damage dealt can't be healed without a wish or miracle. Bonus feats, mainly from the exalted list. If you know you'll be fighting lots of dragons, very nice. Otherwise, mediocre.

Wonderworker: -2: 3rd level spells and one wasted feat. Another 3-level class that grants bonus exalted feats. And no spellcasting progression, just bonus spells. I thought they learned with the Dragon Disciple that that was stupid?

Well, that's the BoED. I might try another one later.

Samb
2009-04-04, 04:38 AM
Wow your DM allows you to play a vile PrC like souleater? I mean eating would is like the worse thing you could do in the multiverse. It's basically what devils do in the nine hells.
If that's the kind of campign yours into then by all means but I really don't consider any of these PrC for PCs. They are there to be a challenge for you, not so you can be tempted.

Salvonus
2009-04-04, 12:50 PM
:smallconfused:

Ever heard of evil campaigns? :smallconfused:

Besides... The tier system has nothing to do with flavour considerations... They can be taken by PCs, end of story. It's just like the Sacred Vows from BoED, y'know. :smalltongue: They fit into certain types of campaigns, and don't in others. :smallsmile:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-04, 03:01 PM
Also, Outsider HD.

Also also, I've been convinced to play a Soul Eater now. What's a good race (stupid nonhumanoid requirement)? Starting at ECL 9, if it matters.Dragonwrought Kobold. Also gets you a 3-attack natural attack routine using the Online material for RotD. Toss in 11 levels of Monk and Multiattack and you get a routine going +8/+8/+8/+3/+6/+6/+6(maybe here, depending on whether or not you can wield your US without using your hands). At ECL 14, using a speed enhancement, you boost that to:+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1/+9/+9/+9, each dealing a negative level. Solars run in fear of you, let alone anything level-appropriate. :smallbiggrin:

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-04, 05:28 PM
I'll be starting in on all the Faerun prestige classes, 3.5 first, and moving back to Magic of Faerun and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, at least the ones that haven't been updated.

Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5)
Arcane Devotee: +0: Wizard 7 and Enlarge Spell. Five level class with full arcane casting progression. A few decent abilities, the best of which: empowers harmless spells cast on him by divine casters with the same patron deity. Situationally nice, but unimpressive.

Divine Champion: +0: Martial 7 and Weapon Focus in deity's favored weapon. Five level class that gives a martial character a few paladin abilities: lay on hands, limited bonus feats, limited smite, bonus on saves verses divine spells and a decent rage-type capstone. Requires a good Charisma to get any real use out of the class.

Divine Disciple: +0: Cleric 7. Five level class with full divine casting. Extra domain at 4th level and capstone: Outsider (native). Better than going Cleric 20, but only just. A high +0.

Divine Seeker: +0: Rogue 7 and Stealthy. Five level class. Good Ref and Will. +2d6 sneak attack by 5th. Gets multiple spell-like abilities of the divination variety. Not as good as assassin, about equal to rogue levels.

Evereskan Tomb Guardian: -1: Logical entry is elf Ranger 3/Wizard 3, which only requires the Alertness feat. Five level class with full arcane progression. 3/4 BAB, Good Reflex and Will saves. Effectively grants favored enemy: Evereskan tomb robbers (must be a really big problem). Gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC at 2nd and 4th. Swift tracker at 3rd. Defensive capstone that won't really come up in a dungeon crawl game, unless the PCs are setting ambushes. Doesn't synergize well as a gish.

Eye of Horus-Re: +1: LG Cleric 6 with Alertness. Greater Turning at 3 + Cha mod. Boosts [light] spells as radiant servant of Pelor. Extra domain at 5th. Positve energy burst at 8th. Permanent true seeing at 10th. Actually better than Radiant Servant, in my opinion, but not substantially.

Hammer of Moradin: +1 (-1 for pure Cleric entry): Dwarf Paladin 8 (if 2nd level bonus spell), or Cleric 3/Martial 5 with Iron will and Weapon Focus. Ten levels with no casting progression. Good BAB, Fort and Will. Improves a wielded warhammer, with throwing, goblinbane, returning, drowbane, axiomatic and giantbane. Everything but throwing and returning is in rounds per day. A bunch of other abilities tied to warhammers, all of at least moderate use. Good for Paladins, terrible for Clerics.

Harper Agent: -1: Any good 5 with Diplomacy as a class skill, Negotiator feat. Five levels with 4/5 casting (arcane or divine). 3/4 BAB, Good Will. Bardic knowledge, miscellaneous bonus on saves. Subpar for non-casters, okay for non-dedicated casters.

Hathran: +1: The opposite number of the Red Wizard, granting circle magic to arcane or divine. 4th level spells required, as well as Ethran and Leadership. Tenth level with full casting, arcane or divine. Within the bounds of Rasheman, spontaneously metamagic spells or remove casting time penalty. Bonus on planar ally spells. Good, considering the breakability of Circle Magic and that the class requires you to have leadership and gives you a bonus to recruit other circle magic users.

Incantrix: +2: Entry as Wizard 5 or Sorcerer 6. We all know this class. Four bonus metamagic feats, full arcane casting progression over ten levels. Loses a school of magic, and gains entirely too many ways to screw with metamagic.

Justicar of Tyr: +1: Paladin 8 (with 2nd level bonus spell). Basically a paladin focused against chaos instead of evil. Ten levels. Capstone: constant dispel chaos. Good if you know you're fighting chaotic types.

Monk of the Long Death: -1: Logical entry: nongood Monk 6. 3/4 BAB, Poor Fort. Gains resistance to [death] effects, monk abilities, poison use, death attack at 6th level, death touch (as domain) at 10th. It's not even an improvement over monks.

Morninglord of Lathander: +0: Logical entry: good Cleric 5. 10 levels, full divine casting progression. Levels stack for turning. Gets 1 extra use of greater turning at 5th and 9th. Maximized turning damage at 7th. Abilities are otherwise low-powered flavor. Decent as a turn monkey, but clearly inferior to both Radiant Servants of Pelor and Eyes of Horus-Re.

Purple Dragon Knight: +0: Logical entry: Martial 13 with Leadership, since 8 ranks of Knowledge (Cormyr local) are required. You could enter it as a Rogue at 6th, or as a Martial 5/Rogue 1, but that doesn't fit well flavorwise. Gains inspirational abilities similar to a bard, at good BAB and Fort. Nothing remarkable, possibly better than straight fighter.

Runecaster: +0: logical entry Cleric 5. Ten level class with full casting. Nothing too remarkable, as we've come to expect from crafting prestige classes, but nothing out and out terrible.

Shaaryan Hunter: +0: logical entry: Ranger 5 with Animal Affinity. Ten levels. Loses two skill points. Makes mounted archery decent, but not as a valid alternative to the cavalier. (For that, see the Bowman Charger, Dragon #325).

Shadow Adept: +0 (+1 as a 1-level dip): Logical entry: Cleric or Wizard 5, Sorcerer 6. Grants three shadow weave magic feats at 1st level, so valid as a dip. Besides that, nothing terribly impressive.

Shadow Thief of Amn: +0: logical entry: Rogue 5 with Persuasive (but anyone with Hide as a class skill can enter at the same time). Five level class, full sneak attack progression. Grants two bonus feats from a moderately limited list. Uncanny dodge and improved UD. Bonus on Leadership score. Useful little abilities, but not really worth delaying access to rogue special abilities. For a ranger, it's a quick way to grab improved uncanny dodge at the cost of 2 BAB. Not good, just quick.

Spellguard of Silverymoon: -1 (+0 for NPCs , or if the obligation is dealt with). Wizard 7 or Sorcerer 8 with Combat Casting. Five levels with full arcane progression. Impractical for adventurers due to military service obligation (2 days out of every tenday). The rest of the abilities don't make up for that obligation.

Zhentarim Spy: +0 : logical entry: evil Rogue 7 or Martial 7 with Deceitful. Five level class, with 2d6 sneak attack. Good Reflex and Will. Gets abilities to avoid detection, making it more attractive for evil NPCs working the party.

Has epic progressions for all the 10 level classes, along with two epic classes.

Netherese Arcanist: +0: Logical entry: Wizard 24 (I believe). Grants Epic Spellcasting with reduced cost with regard to one set to spell seeds, but bans another. Makes epic spells cheaper to produce. Improved epic spellcasting balanced by the later entry requirements.

Spellfire Hierophant: +1 (for spellfire wielders only): Logical entry: Spellfire, access to Concentration as a class skill, 21st level, 2 useless feats. Makes the spellfire channeler more versatile.

Psionic, Exalted and Vile Prestige Classes:

Cognition Thief: -1: Disclaimer: I have minimal experience with psionics, so this may be way off. Ten level class, 6/10 manifesting. On that basic alone, I believe it fails to measure up to straight levels of psion.

Black Blood Hunter: +0: limited to lycanthropes. 3/4 BAB, Good Fort and Reflex. Better than straight ranger, but only for lycanthropes.

Celebrant of Sharess: -1: logical entry: CG Bard 4 with two wasted feats. Ten levels with 4th level casting, with a bardic spell list. Gains rage, bardic fascinate/suggestion/love. Only good as flavor.

Harper Paragon: -1: no logical entry. Seriously, favored enemy, diplomacy 8 ranks. Ranger 1/Bard 4 is about as close as it comes. Ten levels, full casting progression (arcane or divine). Bardic knowledge, favored enemies, smite evil. 3/4 BAB, Good Reflex. I believe that favored enemy requirement is a throwback to the 3.0 Harper agent, which granted a favored enemy. Too much of mishmash to be useful, at least in its current state.

Maiden of Pain: +0: logical entry: Cleric 5. 10 levels, 9/10 cleric progression. Extra domain. Can use whip to deliver touch attacks. Gains Improved Disarm and Trip. Unimpressive, but better than straight cleric.

Martyred Champion of Ilmater: -1: logical entry: LG any class 5 with 2 wasted feats. 10 levels, 5/10 casting progression (arcane or divine) or bonus feats. For PCs who want to get beat up, because of unarmed strike focus, DR /evil and general lack of focus.

Slime Lord: -1: logical entry: Rogue 6 with one wasted feat. 10 level class, grants no sneak attack. Paralysis with natural weapons, which are unfortunately pathetic. Eventually gains polymorph immunity, blindsight 60ft and immunity critical hits, sneak attacks, poison, paralysis and stunning. But its just not worth sacrificing sneak attack.

Yathrinshee (Priestess-Mage of Kiransalee): -2: logical entry: female drow Cleric 5/ Wizard 3 with one wasted feat. Ten levels, with 6/10 advancing both arcane and divine casting. Arcane and divine caster levels stack for determining CL of Necromancy spells. Death ward at 4th, or +4 turn resistance if undead. Radiates desecration at 7th. wail of the banshee without number limit in a 60ft radius, 1/day at 10th level. Worse than the Mystic Theurge, depressingly.

Zaq
2009-04-04, 06:26 PM
Yes, the allure of a Monk-based soul eater is not simply unarmed striking, but also flurrying. The penalty to hit isn't bad when you're aiming for touch attacks, and it's an easy way to get additional attacks, particularly with Snap Kick.

Of course, a Totemist soul eater could be just insane. Don't they have a way to get something like 7 or 8 natural weapons? I know Landshark Boots lets you get four claws, but I don't remember the ways to get more and still attack with all of them. Still, someone who knows the class inside and out could surely wreak much havoc.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-04, 08:19 PM
Happy fun times in the sub-basement of hell!
Champions of Ruin:
Black Blood Cultist: A non-vile version
Tier: -1
Logical entry: Barbarian 5 with 2 wasted feats.
Levels: 10
Abilities: Decent abilities, but 3/4 BAB as a martial class?

Justice of Weald and Woe: Elven racial supremacist
Tier: -1
Logical entry: Ranger 6, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Levels: 10, 4th level casting; rangerish spell list
Abilities: Another 3/4 BAB martial class. 2 bonus archery feats (2nd and 8th), sneak attack +2d6 (3rd & 7th), hide in plain sight (9th), death attack and poison immunity (10th).

Nightmask Deathbringer: Vampire-tainted rogue
Tier: -1
Logical entry: evil Rogue 5 with Great Fortitude
Levels: 10
Abilities: Gains a lot of demi-vampire abilities (spider climb, stunning gaze limited number of times per day, swift invisibility, sneak attack +2d6, improved evasion, slippery mind)

Shade Hunter: favored enemy trapfinder
Tier: +0
Logical entry: evil Rogue 4/Ranger 1
Levels: 10; 3/4 BAB, Good Fort and Ref, 8 + Int mod skills, 4th level casting of non-nature ranger spells.
Abilities: rapidly scaling trap sense (+5 at 10th), sneak attack +2d6, favored enemy (+2 existing at 8th), blindsight 30ft (10th).

Thayan Gladiator: Monstrous gladiator, focusing on a natural weapon
Tier: +1
Logical entry: evil, BAB +5 and natural weapon, Toughness and Weapon Focus
Levels: 10, full BAB, d12 HD.
Abilities: Imbues chosen natural weapon with various materials (silver at 3rd, adamantine at 6th), special abilities (+1 equivalent at 5th, plus a +2 equivalent at 10th). General improvements: improved natural attack, natural armor, extra attack with natural weapon, critical multiplier increased.

Vengeance Knight: Knight of the Shield enforcer
Tier: +1
Logical entry: Fighter 5, with Iron Will and Weapon Focus (sword)
Levels: 10
Abilities: Wear armor well (1st: reduce armor check by 1; 6th: reduce armor check by 3, 25ft in heavy armor; 10: reduce armor check by 5), favored enemy: assigned target, 3 bonus feats, arcane backlash (successful save against single target spell deals nonlethal damage to caster: 4th: 1d6; 7th: 2d6; 10th: 3d6).

Champions of Valor
Knight of the Flying Hunt: Aerial defenders of the island of Nimbral
Tier: +0 (better than fighter levels, but only just. Your mount is particularly vulnerable).
Logical entry: elf or half-elf Fighter 7, with two wasted feats
Levels: 10, Good Fort and Will
Abilities: free +1 full plate that grants feather fall, pegasus mount (both 1st). Reduce armor check by 2 (2nd), by 4 (7th). +1 full plate of invulnerability and electrical resistance plus feather fall (5th). Bonus feats at 4th and 8th. 10th: add another ability to your armor (limit 30,000gp or +3 price modifier).

Knight of the Weave: arcane holy warrior of Mystra
Tier: +0 (Martial entry), -1 (Sorcerer entry)
Logical entry: non-evil BAB +5 or Sorcerer 6; free multiclassing with Paladin.
Levels: 10, 6th level casting with pure magic focus. 3/4 BAB, good Fort and Will.
Abilities: Ignore light armor spell failure at 2nd, medium armor at 8th. Spend extra spell slots to apply metamagic without time increase (4th). Convert arcane spells into healing (2hp/level; 6th). Arcane bolt like archmage (technically spellfire; 10th)

Moonsea Skysentinel: Anti-Zhentarim aerial knight
Tier: +0 (Better than straight fighter, but fragile, both mount and rider)
Logical entry: Fighter 5, easy entry.
Levels: 10, d8 HD
Abilities: Dire hawk steed (1st, slowly improves), save bonus vs spells (+4 at 10th; only while mounted), spell turning (3rd: 1/day, 6th: 2/day, 9th: 3/day).

Triadic Knight: Knight of Ilmater, Torm and Tyr
Tier: +1 (Paladin entry), +0 (Cleric entry)
Logical entry: Paladin 5 or LG Cleric 7
Levels: 7, advances divine casting 5/7 (1st and 7th blank), Good BAB and Fort
Abilities: Special mount (stacks with paladin), immune nausea and sicken (2nd), immune dazzle and magical blindness (4th), smite evil (5th), immune fear (6th), burn three smites full-round action to perform triple damage smite (7th).

sonofzeal
2009-04-04, 08:49 PM
Book of Exalted Deeds
We now have two ratings of it. I did the first, so I'm not particularly objective on the subject. Here's some significant points of contention...

Apostle of Peace - entirely functional, really (Vow of Peace gets a juicy +4 to DCs), but spell list is pretty weak. Tam gave it a +1, I gave it a -2 because of the rampantly self-contradictory text, but I'll agree that power-wise it's not all that horrid.

Celestial Mystic - Loses a level of spellcasting, gets elemental resistances and a few minor immunities. Tam gave it a +1, I gave it a +0 because, eh, seemed rather par-for-the-course on a 9/10 class.

Emissary of Barachiel - Diplomancer PrC. Can enthrall, stun, or do other useful things with full-round Diplo checks, DC = the check result. Can also forcibly change people's alignments, again with a DC = the check result. Tam gave it a +0, I gave it a +2 because {a} it turns Diplomancing from a minute-long thing to a single-turn combat ending beast, {b} Diplomacy checks can far exceed anyones saving throws even without cheese, and {c} changing people's alignment is way powerful in any social campaign.

Exalted Arcanist - Lose one spell level, gain some minor bonus exalted stuff. Tam gives it a +0, I give it a -1. Not horrid by any standard, but... eh, lost spell level.

Fist of Raziel - 9/10 casting, smite-based PrC. Tam gives it a +2 because it "improves Czilla". I gave it a +0 because I saw it as a Paladin class, and it's only just worth the loss of mount progression IMO. I can see how it could work for Clerics though, so I'm ambivalent right now.

Initiate of Pistis Sophia - Monk PrC, advances most things just fine but loses out on the only two monk class features I see as worth taking. Gets some other goodies though. Tam gives it a +0, I give it a -1.

Lion of Talsid - Druid/Ranger PrC, advances AC, spellcasting, and Wildshape. Tam gave it a -1 for Druid, I gave it a +1; your wildshape is 2 HD behind, but your AC is better and you get Pounce, Haste, Scent, and a bonus on Will saves; it seems like a solid improvement on all fronts.

Prophet of Erathaol - 9/10 casting, extremely flexible ability ("Ecstasy", can do just about anything your DM agrees to), requires four feats to enter. Tam gave it -1 for the four feats, I gave it +1 because Ecstasy is just so crazy.

Risen Martyr - lots of pretty solid class features, including the advantages of being undead without many of the limits, but no real offensive capacity. am rates it -2, I rated it +1, but I could see lowering it a bit.

Sentinel of Bharrai - Easy entry for Wizards, 10/10 casting, gains.... uh... this (http://thxforthe.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bear-cavalry.jpg). Also free Quickened Lightning Storm, some solid resistances, and the ability to turn into a bear at-will (like Wildshape but better because it's at-will for infinite free healing, your hp goes up with new constitution, duration is unlimited, and you keep speech {which requires a MoMF dip for Druids}). Tam gave it a +1, I gave it a +2 because, come on, wtf. :smalltongue:

Skylord - Elf gish class with a special mount that doesn't stack with Pally or Ranger, 1/2 casting. Tam gave it a +0, I gave it a -1 and a low -1 at that because, unless you can't gain flight any other way, it's seriously underwhelming. Plus elves are lame. :smallbiggrin:

Slayer of Domial - Basically the Assassin class, without the Splat support and with an even worse Death Attack effect. Tam gave it a +0, I gave it a +1 because, hey, it still gets some nice spellcasting.

Stalker of Kharash - Ranger PrC, not terribly impressive by all accounts. Tam gave it a low +0, I gave it a -1. Honestly it's borderline either way.

Sword of Righteousness - like Celestial Mystic for Fighters. Easy to enter, gets you two bonus Exalted feats. Tam gave it a -1 because Exalted feats generally stink, I gave it a +0 because if you want more Exalted feats already then it's a reasonable option.

Troubadour of Stars - I misread the Bard chart here; I'll bump it up to -1.

Wonderworker - ....yeah, no arguments here, down to -2 you go!


....so yeah, comments appreciated on all but the last two (well, them too, if you're strongly for something other than -1 and -2 respectively). Note that I'm working on a set of main list edits right now, so these will probably go in on the next one.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-04, 10:00 PM
Celestial Mystic at +1 is almost entirely for the [death] effects and petrification immunity, just because I've lost entirely too many characters to failed Fort saves.

Emissary: I recall that there was a Faerun feat that let you rush Diplomacy checks as a full-round action at -10. Considering the absurd heights they've gotten Diplomacy skill modifiers to, it's a full-round action from hostile to fanatic. I'll concede a +1 ranking, with +2 for social focused campaigns.

Lion: My central complaint was that you couldn't get Huge Wildshape. If you can do that, I'll certainly go +0, at the very least.

Prophet: See, I just wrapped up a campaign where contacting the spiritual world would seriously screw you over. So I'm probably a little biased on that account. +0, +1 with a permissive DM?

Sentinel: I love that picture. I always forget about wildshape healing. With the caveat of infinite healing, sure. +2.

Skylord: I'm an elf fanboy, and I've got a soft spot for flying mounts. At most, a low +0. Low-magic campaign, I can see it getting more useful.

Slayer of Domiel: If you have a DM crazy enough to also give you access to Spell Compendium Assassin spells, certainly a +1. It's a high +0 as written.

Sword of Righteousness: Yeah, if you need the exalted feats, I can see it. I just don't know if there are four good exalted feats for the average fighter...

Do you want me to keep churning out the Faerun stuff? I've got eleven more books to go through, and I don't want to totally swamp the thread.

Anyone up for trying these?
Cityscape
Complete Champion
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic
Dragonlance campaign books
Dungeonscape
Eberron books, less the Campaign Setting
Fiend Folio
Heroes of Battle
Libris Mortis (undead only)

sonofzeal
2009-04-04, 10:19 PM
Celestial Mystic at +1 is almost entirely for the [death] effects and petrification immunity, just because I've lost entirely too many characters to failed Fort saves.

Emissary: I recall that there was a Faerun feat that let you rush Diplomacy checks as a full-round action at -10. Considering the absurd heights they've gotten Diplomacy skill modifiers to, it's a full-round action from hostile to fanatic. I'll concede a +1 ranking, with +2 for social focused campaigns.

Lion: My central complaint was that you couldn't get Huge Wildshape. If you can do that, I'll certainly go +0, at the very least.

Prophet: See, I just wrapped up a campaign where contacting the spiritual world would seriously screw you over. So I'm probably a little biased on that account. +0, +1 with a permissive DM?

Sentinel: I love that picture. I always forget about wildshape healing. With the caveat of infinite healing, sure. +2.

Skylord: I'm an elf fanboy, and I've got a soft spot for flying mounts. At most, a low +0. Low-magic campaign, I can see it getting more useful.

Slayer of Domiel: If you have a DM crazy enough to also give you access to Spell Compendium Assassin spells, certainly a +1. It's a high +0 as written.

Sword of Righteousness: Yeah, if you need the exalted feats, I can see it. I just don't know if there are four good exalted feats for the average fighter...

Do you want me to keep churning out the Faerun stuff? I've got eleven more books to go through, and I don't want to totally swamp the thread.

Anyone up for trying these?
Cityscape
Complete Champion
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic
Dragonlance campaign books
Dungeonscape
Eberron books, less the Campaign Setting
Fiend Folio
Heroes of Battle
Libris Mortis (undead only)
Celestial Mystic I'll give.

Emissary doesn't require setting-specific, plus it works even if Diplomacy is otherwise nerfed (say, by Rich Burlew's excellent variant).

Lion stacks with Druid (minus two) for what forms it grants. That includes Huge.

Prophet, I'll put in a note about DM.

Sentinal, yeah that pic rocks. :smallcool:

Skylord... eh, I see the mount dying fast in any realistic campaign, and a dead mount at 1,000 feet up is not a good thing. Borderline +0/-1. I'd want to see someone else willing to vouch for it first.

Slayer is probably borderline. I like what I see from the things already on the spell list (Rogues can UMD, but that's expensive and often takes item slots; being able to cast it yourself is huge), but I agree that it's strictly inferior to Assassin with is also a +1. Again, borderline. Anyone else?

Sword... Nymph's Kiss, Touch of Golden Ice, Righteous Wrath, Quell the Profane? Maybe not the best feats ever, but certainly justifiable in the right context.



As to Faerun stuff, post away! I've got no experience in that setting, and access to only a couple of the books, so it's all yours.

sonofzeal
2009-04-04, 10:35 PM
....with this big an update, I may have misplaced something or copy-pasted wrongly. If you see something out of place that doesn't look intentional, let me know. Stuff will actually get added within the next 24 hours; I planned to do it tonight, but compiling this list alone is a nightmare.


Books
Book of Vile Darkness - Samb (ave: +0.647)
Champions of Ruin - Tam_OConnor (ave: +0.0)
Complete Mage - Surreal (ave: +0.545)
Libris Mortis - Salt_Crow (ave: -1.0)
Race of Destiny - tusk (ave: +0.176)
Races of Stone - Surreal (ave: +0.467)
Race of the Dragon - tusk (ave: +0.0)
Planar Handbook - tusk (ave: +0.0)
Player's Guide to Faerun - Tam_OConnor (ave: -0.1)



Up Two
Anima Mage
Disciple of Amodeus
Disciple of Disapater
* Incantrix (already listed)
* Shadowcraft Mage (already listed)
Soul Eater
Thrall of Juiblex


Up One
- Anima Mage
- Psion Uncarnate
- Shadowcraft Mage
Abjurant Champion
Blade Bravo
Cancer Mage (except with festering rage)
Celestial Mystic
Chaotician
Cragtop Archer
Deepwarden
Diabolist
Disciple of Baalzebul
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Disciple of the Eye
Divine Prankster
Dragon Devotee (for non-casters)
Earth Dreamer
Elemental Warrior
Eye of Horus-Re
Fatemaker (worse for bards)
Hammer of Moradin
Hathran
Holy Scourge
Justicar of Tyr
Loredelver
Lyric Thaumaturge
Master Specialist
Menacing Brute
Mortal Hunter
Nightmare Spinner
Runesmith
Scion of Dantalion
Singer of Concordance
Spellfire Hierophant
Stoneblessed
Thayan Gladiator
Thrall of Demogoron
Triadic Knight
Pale Master
Unseen Seer
Urban Soul
Vengeance Knight
Warrior of Darkness
Wild Soul


Equal
- Scion of Dantalion
Arcane Devotee
Ardent Dilettant
Astral Dancer
Black Blood Hunter
Champions of Valor
Cipher Adept
Disciple of Mammon
Divine Champion
Divine Disciple
Divine Seeker
Dracolexi
Eldritch Disciple
Eldritch Theurge
Goliath Liberator
Knight of the Weave
Maiden of Pain
Moonsea Skysentinel
Morninglord of Lathander
Netherese Arcanist
Peregrine Runner
Psion Uncarnate
Purple Dragon Knight
Runecaster
Scar Enforcer
Shaaryan Hunter
Shade Hunter
Shadow Adept
Shadow Thief of Amn
Stonedeath Assassin
Stonespeaker Guardian
Thrall of Orcus
Ultimate Magus (except with fast entry tricks)
Zhentarim Spy


Down One
- Celestial Mystic
- Wonderworker
Black Blood Cultist
Celebrant of Sharess
Cognition Thief
Enlightened Spirit
Evereskan Tomb Guardian
Death's Chosen
Demonlogist
Dragonheart Mage
Doomguard
Harper Agent
Harper Paragon
Justice of Weald and Woe
Martyred Champion of Ilmater
Master of Radiance
Master of Shrounds
Monk of the Long Death
Nightmask Deathbringer
Outcast Champion
Sacred Purifier
Shadow Sentinel
Slime Lord
Spellguard of Silverymoon
Thrall of Graz'zt
Troubadour of Stars
Vermin Lord
Visionary Seeker



Down Two
- Troubadour of Stars
Defiant
Dirgesinger
Lifedrinker
True Necromancer
Wonderworker
Yathrinshee

Samb
2009-04-05, 12:00 AM
Cognition thief gains the ability to read thoughts AT WILL. This is basically the ultimate in spy abilities. If a cognition thief wants to know something he will know it. That alone is enough to warrent a +1.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-05, 12:34 AM
Samb: I cheerfully defer to you on the matter of the Cognition Thief. The only problem are those pesky Will saves. Dip and move into Mindspy?

Faiths and Pantheons (technically 3.0)
Arachne: specialist priestess of Lolth
Tier: A low +0, fine if you don't care about turning
Logical entry: limited to CE females of very specific races (half-drow is the only one with LA +0) Cleric 5 with 4 mostly useless feats (3 if drow)
Levels: 10, full divine casting
Abilities: All very situational or fluff-based. Native outsider at 10th level, ability to bestow Zin-Carla template at 9th level (which really doesn't do anything).

Auspician: specialist priest of a Luck god (Tymora, Beshaba, etc)
Tier: +1; fairly high in that tier, too. I'd love to see this combined with Complete Scoundrel [luck] feats.
Logical entry: Cleric 5 with Dodge and all three save boosting feats.
Levels: 10, full casting (arcane or divine)
Abilities: Fate domain, true strike as free action 1/day, some re-roll abilities (3rd), ability to select from a list of benefits on a daily basis, all of which are luck bonuses (4th; 2 at 8th).

Doomguide: specialist priest of Kelemvor (LN death god)
Tier: +1 (fairly low, though this jumps if specifically fighting undead).
Logical entry: LN Cleric 5 with Great Fortitude and Proficiency (bastard sword)
Levels: 10, full divine casting
Abilities: turning stacks, 3 bonus feats (decent list; 3rd, 6th, 10th), resistance to [death] effects and negative levels (4th, 8th), enhance bastard sword with anti-undead properties for rounds/day (5th: ghost touch, 7th: + undeadbane, 9th: + disruption), immunity to [death] effects and negative levels, aura of +4 saves (10th).

Dreadmaster: Specialist priest of Bane (LE god of tyranny)
Tier: +2; three cohorts at 10th level. That is all.
Logical entry: LE Cleric 8 with 6th level cohort and skill focus (intimidate)
Levels: 10, full casting (arcane or divine)
Abilities: Immune fear, aura that inflicts -4 on saves vs fear (1st, size increases), enhanced leadership (6th: +2, 8th: +4, 10th: +6; no penalties for losing cohorts, at 10th: no penalty for cruelty), followers and cohorts are fanatics (8th), extra cohorts (+1 at 9th and 10th; special [monster] cohorts only).

Dweomerkeeper: Specialist priest of Mystra
Tier: +2; Twice betrayed of Mystra, anyone?
Logical entry: Human Cleric 3/Wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge 2 with two wasted feats
Levels: 10, at full casting progression (arcane or divine)
Abilities: 3 bonus feats, Capstone: -1 metamagic cost.

Elemental Archon: Specialist priest of one of the Elemental Lords
Tier: -1; at the very least.
Logical entry: Druid 5 (because Clerics don't get Knowledge (nature) as a class skill)
Levels: 10, 7/10 casting
Abilities: Resistance to chosen element, mephit underlings, capstone: gain abilities of appropriate Medium Elemental.

Forest Master: Specialist priest of Silvanus (nature god)
Tier: -2; one of the prerequisites is control plants, an 8th level spell. This is a 10-level prestige class. See the problem?

Goldeye: Specialist priest of Waukeen (goddess of wealth)
Tier: +0; very much on the low end.
Logical entry: Rog 1/Cleric 5, with 2 wasted feats
Levels: 10, full casting (arcane or divine), Good Fort and Ref
Abilities: Metric ton of flavorful, almost entirely fluff abilities.

Heartwarden: Specialist 'priestess' of Sune (goddess of love)
Tier: +1; this rocks the face role. Probably best as a Beguiler entry.
Logical entry: CG Beguiler 5 with three feats or Bard 7 (with bonus 3rd level spells) with two feats; the class requires 3rd level casting, but doesn't specify what type.
Levels: 10, full casting (arcane or divine)
Abilities: +1 inherent bonus to Cha at every odd level. Multiple bonus feats at 6th. Fey transformation at 10th.

Horned Harbinger: Creature twisted by contact with an artifact of the former god of death, the Crown of Horns
Tier: -1; it's a undead raising/controlling monster, but it has no casting.
Logical entry: Anyone with Knowledge (planar) at 5.
Levels: 10, with no casting progression. BAB and saves as cleric.
Abilities: Whole lot of bonus feats, rebuke undead, undead creation, higher limit for controlling animated dead.

Nightcloak: Specialist priest of Shar (goddess of darkness)
Tier: +0
Logical entry: NE Cleric 4/Rogue 1, Iron Will
Levels: 10, full casting (arcane or divine)
Abilities: Like the Goldeye, but abilities that are of at least nominal combat use.

Ocular Adept: Specialist priest of the Beholder goddess
Tier: -1; even the beholder eye rays aren't enough to make up for the loss of high level spells.
Logical entry: Cleric 5, Endurance
Levels: 10, casting as Cleric 1-10
Abilities: Gains all beholder eye rays except antimagic 2/day.

Silverstar: Specialist Priest of Selune (moon goddess)
Tier: +0
Logical entry: CG Cleric 3/Fighter 2, 4 mostly useless feats (blindfight and the spring attack tree)
Levels: 10, full divine casting
Abilities: Slowly, the developers seem to have grasped the idea of useful class abilities. Verrrrry slowly.

Stormlord: reproduced elsewhere

Strifeleader: Specialist priest of Cyric (god of strife)
Tier: +0; low end, unless you're going for a priestly assassin
Logical entry: Cleric 5/Rogue 2, with 2 wasted feats
Levels: 10, 7/10 casting (arcane or divine)
Abilities: Immune fear, aura that inflicts -4 on saves vs fear (1st, size increases), sneak attack +3d6, death attack (8th; +4 DC at 10th)

Sword Dancer: Specialist priestess of Eilistraee (goddess of good drow)
Tier: +0; middling, but not outright bad
Logical entry: female elf or half-elf Cleric 7 with 4 wasted feats
Levels: 10, full casting (arcane or divine)
Abilities: Best ability is to spontaneously cast cleric spells of under 3rd in domain slots (6th; improves to 6th level spells at 8th).

Techsmith: Specialist priest of Gond (god of technology)
Tier: +0; melee focus of some abilities doesn't jive with poor BAB. Bodyguard can be useful.
Logical entry: Cleric or Wizard 7 with 2 wasted feats
Levels: 10, full arcane or divine casting; poor BAB, good Fort and Will
Abilities: Construct bodyguard (not terrible), gains a domain, ignore DR on constructs & know vulnerable spells. Capstone: Critical a construct, destroyed as if struck by mace of smiting.

Waveservant: Specialist priest of Umberlee (goddess of the sea)
Tier: +0; only better than straight cleric in aquatic situations.
Logical entry: Cleric 7 with two wasted feats
Levels: 10, full divine casting
Abilities: water breathing and move freely underwater, rage, scent in water, tremorsense in water. Capstone: Aberration [aquatic], immune critical hits and sneak attack.

Wearer of Purple: Worshiper of dracoliches (Cult of the Dragon)
Tier: +1; Paralysis is nice. Really, really nice.
Logical entry: evil Cleric 6 with Iron Will (Sorcerer entries will get the most out of the paralyzing gaze)
Levels: 10, full arcane or divine casting. Poor BAB. Good Will.
Abilities: Energy resistance (any one), paralysis by touch and then gaze, each limited in use, as well as miscellaneous other abilities.

Windwalker: Specialist priest of Shaundakul
Tier: +1; very solid, for clerics or rangers. It's practically +1 for Druids!
Logical entry: Ranger 5 with two wasted feats or Cleric/Druid 7 with three wasted feats.
Levels: 10, full divine casting. Good BAB and Will.
Abilities: Gain Air and Travel spells on list. Permanent air walk at 3rd. Cold resistance. Smite fiends. Capstone: fly 100ft (good).

Remember, 3.0 technically.

Salvonus
2009-04-05, 02:52 AM
Cognition thief gains the ability to read thoughts AT WILL. This is basically the ultimate in spy abilities. If a cognition thief wants to know something he will know it. That alone is enough to warrent a +1.

No, it isn't. You only get that ability at will at the 10th level of the class. In the meantime, you lose 4 ML. The class is a weak +0, and that's only because of the bonus powers known making up for all the ones you'd lose. The spell-like abilities might make up for some of the lost PP and the fact you don't get 9th level spells, but I'm not overly impressed...

Honestly, though, a Telepath 20 probably does everything but the Read Thoughts power better. The main prerequisite for a +1 tier PrC is that it must be noticeably better than its entry class. The Cognition Thief utterly fails that test.

Mm. When I think about it, the Cognition Thief may be -1 after all. You're giving up 4 feats, basically, compared to the Telepath. Inquisitor, Practised Manifester (ML is so important...), and the two bonus feats. 122 pp. 9th level powers known. Hm. It's a borderline case, to my mind.

Then again, this list has the disaster known as the Flayerspawn Psychic at +0... Psionic PrCs have been overrated a bit around here, it seems. :smallyuk:

Samb
2009-04-05, 09:33 AM
I was the one that gave the flayerspawn psychic 0, and I also think the cognition thief is 0 as well and it has little to do with just being psionic.

Reading thoughts is the whole basis of cognitin thief, and not many PrC give allow you do anything at will. That's why half fey template is so good, for the charm at will. No limits on how often to use, automaticaly augmented to max. Even The illithid have a limit on how often they can blast people. It's a great capstone for an entry class (psionic race/dip rogue) that didn't need the ML to begin with.
Telepath entry? I don't think so. None of the class features support it really. An espianoge rogue with dip in psionic class seems to make much more sense.

I have played with a flayerspawn psychic and he was pretty decent. But I have to account for him not being an average player. Lose of 4ML is made up for the fact that you gain a lot in offense (grapple and extract). The thing is you don't play FSP as a psion but almost like a Gish in that you would be meleeing (tentcles have improved grapple and weapon finesse on them).

Chronos
2009-04-05, 02:27 PM
Of course, a Totemist soul eater could be just insane. Don't they have a way to get something like 7 or 8 natural weapons?Only 6, I think, and that requires 9 levels of the class. You get four claws from Girallon Arms, and then another two from Lamia Belt, but using both requires the feat Double Chakra (totem), which requires meldshaper level 9. There are other melds which grant multiple attacks, but most of them have restrictions on how you can full-attack, and besides, you can't bind more than 2 melds to your totem regardless. Still, Totemist 2 with Girallon Arms (and a few levels of something else for BAB) would be a pretty solid entry for Soul Eater, anyway.


On the books needed list, I note that we also still don't have the truename portion of Tome of Magic covered. Not that I'm volunteering for it, mind you.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-05, 04:33 PM
Only 6, I think, and that requires 9 levels of the class. You get four claws from Girallon Arms, and then another two from Lamia Belt, but using both requires the feat Double Chakra (totem), which requires meldshaper level 9. Is there no 'Practiced Meldshaper" feat? If there is, you can go Monk 11/Totemist 5/Souleater 4 for a full-attack with 12 hits. Toss in Haste, a race with a Bite, and something like TWF or Snap Kick for 15 negative levels a round.

sonofzeal
2009-04-05, 09:47 PM
On the books needed list, I note that we also still don't have the truename portion of Tome of Magic covered. Not that I'm volunteering for it, mind you.
Funny you should ask.....




Last of ToM:

Acolyte of the Ego +1
Obvious entry is a Truenamer, and the self-buffs possible here make that annoying truespeach DC not as big of an issue. 8 levels will give really nice stat boosts, breath weapon, or a number of other effects. Other classes can get in with Truespeech Training and a few languages, but in general it won't be worth the heavy investment.

Bereft -2
Again, Truenamer entry, but the difference here is that you have to target an enemy DC for the class abilities to work. Combine that with the fact that the stronger abilities all require saves, and its a lose-lose situation.

Brimstone Speaker -2
Cleric w/ Truespeach Training is the obvious entry. You gain a breath attack, and gain the ability to summon outsiders using a truespeach check a limited number of times per day, and lose a level of spellcasting every time you can summon a better outsider. Uhm... how is that better than a straight Cleric??? Just cast Dragon Breath and Planar Ally spells :P. There's a core-only PrC just for that sort of thing.

Disciple of the Word +0
A Monk at L6 is the obvious entry, but not the only one (consider a Monk 2 / full BAB 2 or even a Monk 2 / Binder 4). The class fully stacks w/ Monk for unarmed strike, AC, and speed, which is pretty good. Essentially, it adds several abilities (some of which are pretty great) that need a stunning fist usage and a truespeach check. It would get +1, since it adds a lot of nice effects to a straight monk, but in the end you trade investment in truespeach (and Int, usually a dump stat) and non-combat monk abilities for some other effects, and except for 2 in particular (dispel when you hit, DR bypass including Epic DR) the abilities aren't that strong. The problem is that the DCs to activate those class abilities is pretty high, so you need feat and items to invest to make them happen.

Fiendbinder +0
Wizard is the only entry worth mentioning. I have never, ever seen how its worth taking this class instead of Malconvoker or such. That said, it doesn't really lose that much compared to a straight Wizard. Planar Binding spells can gain many of the same benefits of this class, but it costs cash. It also loses 3 spellcasting levels :P. Its not worth it, imo, but it does gain an ability to become immune to HP damage for a temporary amount of time, which might be useful in some niche builds.

Chronos
2009-04-06, 12:42 AM
It [Disciple of the Word] would get +1, since it adds a lot of nice effects to a straight monk, but in the end you trade investment in truespeach (and Int, usually a dump stat) and non-combat monk abilities for some other effects, and except for 2 in particular (dispel when you hit, DR bypass including Epic DR) the abilities aren't that strong.The Truespeech investment is a lot less painful, though, when you realize that you don't need to invest in Balance, Jump, or Tumble at all any more. You save more skillpoints than you lose. The class still isn't all that great, but compared to straight Monk, I'd argue that it's +1.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-06, 05:48 PM
We return to the tidal wave now sweeping over this thread: namely, Faerun prestige classes. Hold onto your hats. Again, I don't have personal experience with most of these, so any input is appreciated.

Lost Empires of Faerun
Cultist of the Shattered Peak: person devoted to keeping Netheril's secrets dead
Tier: +0; spell list doesn't have the versatility of the assassin, but its a fairly easy entry.
Logical entry: human Rogue 7 or Fighter 3/Rogue 3 with no arcane casting
Levels: 5; 3rd level casting (minimal) from Sor/Wiz abjurations or enchantments.
Abilities: +2d6 sneak attack, smite mage, death attack

Glorious Servitor: favored servant of the Mulhorandi pantheon
Tier: -1; if paladin, decreased fighting ability; if cleric, lost spells.
Logical entry: Cleric 3/Fighter 5 or Paladin 8 (with Wis 14+) and two wasted feats
Levels: 7 levels, no casting or turning advancement; 3/4 BAB, Good Will
Abilities: Polymorph into god's totem animal (no healing), immune fear, SR 12 + servitor level, +1 inherent bonus to strength (2nd, 4th, 6th), 1/day spell-like abilities, native outsider (7th), immune: poison (7th).

Magelord: Mage devoted to Spell MAstery
Tier: +0; wizard spontaneous casting is nothing to sneeze at. However, unless there's a way to get evasion in one level, you can't actually get the capstone pre-epic. If you have that, +1.
Logical entry: Wizard 9/Rogue 2 with one wasted feat (two if you count spell mastery)
Levels: 10, full arcane casting; Good Ref
Abilities: sneak attack +3d6, extra spells under Spell Mastery, spontaneous casting of Spell Mastery spells. Capstone: spontaneously apply metamagic feats to spontaneously cast mastered spells.

Olin Gisir: Elven loremaster
Tier: +1; low end of that, though. Not quite as good as the Loremaster.
Logical entry: elf or half-elf Wizard 7 with Iron Will
Levels: 10, full arcane casting
Abilities: 4 secrets, which includes the possibility to make up for Iron Will. Not as good in general as the Loremaster list. Dispel [alignment] added to spellbook (5th), [alignment] word added to spellbook (8th).

Sunmaster: Specialist preist of Amaunator (Netherese sun god)
Tier: -1 (assuming no quick way to get knowledge skills); +0 (cloistered cleric or the like)
Logical entry: Cleric 3/bard 2; bard levels are because of non-cleric knowledge skills. If you have another way of getting knowledge (history) 8 ranks and Knowledge (geography) 4 ranks, then entry as Cleric 5
Levels: 10, full divine casting
Abilities: searing light as a spell-like ability, fire resistance, planning domain, capstone: gaseous form, only with fly 120ft (perfect), immunity to fire, 6d6 fire melee touch, 10 rounds 1/day.

Battlerager: dwarf barbarian
Tier: +0; doesn't advance progression towards mighty rage, and the abilities aren't that great in comparison.
Logical entry: dwarf barbarian 5 with Endurance
Levels: 5
Abilities: extra rage use at odd levels, immune feat (2nd), 4 pre-determined bonus feats, none of which are remarkable, +2 natural armor (5th)

Bladesinger: elven gish; reproduced in Complete Warrior. Much better picture here, though.

Breachgnome: gnomish variant of dwarven defender
Tier: +1; this is how the dwarven defender should have been done.
Logical entry: gnome Fighter 6 with one wasted feat
Levels: 5, Good Ref
Abilities: if adjacent to a solid object (or two, as in a tunnel), static dodge bonus to AC (1st), resisting bull rushes and overruns (bonus to atk and resist; 3rd), and on attack verses creatures moving through space (5th); uncanny dodge (2nd; improved 5th), two bonus feats.

Elven High Mage: epic prestige class for epic elven magic
Tier: +1; low-end, considering Epic Skill Focus: Knowledge (arcana). That really hurts.
Logical entry: elf Wizard 24, with two wasted epic feats (Epic Skill Focus: knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft). The second if up for debate.
Levels: 10 (with unique abilities)
Abilities: Reduced creation DCs and cost of epic spells, 2 bonus feats.

Great Rift Skyguard: dwarf hippogriff rider
Tier: +0; another aerial mount that stays very fragile. On the high end if the fighter doesn't have another way to fly.
Logical entry: dwarf Fighter 5 with Toughness
Levels: 10; Good BAB, Fort, Ref
Abilities: Hippogriff improves three times, ending at 9 HD. 3 bonus feats tied to Mounted Combat. Many of the abilities just seem to codify aerial stunts, for which I have taken an irrational dislike for this class. I want my three die stunts, darn it!

Orc Warlord: just what it says on the tin
Tier: +1; Improving Leadership! That is all.
Logical entry: orc or half-orc barbarian 9: Leadership requirement, along with a feat that requires Leadership. If you can get both at 6th, then you can enter at 6th.
Levels: 5; Good BAB, Fort, Will
Abilities: ...Many, many more followers. As in, double the number at 3rd. THe other two abilities pale in comparison.

Spellsinger: elven-blooded musical arcanist
Tier: +0; decent, but nothing exceptional.
Logical entry: elven-blooded (1/8+) Bard 5 with Skill Focus (Perform) and Improved Counterspell; the spellsong ability is more compelling for bard/wizard multiclasses, actually.
Levels: 5; full arcane spell progression
Abilities: stacks with bardic music, spellsong (spontaneously cast arcane enchantments using higher level spells), improved countersong, increased range on bardic music

Warrior Skald: Enough said
Tier: +1; maybe not the traditional direction to take bards, but it does it very well.
Logical entry: Bard 6 with Power Attack and Cleave
Levels: 10, Good BAB, Fort and Ref
Abilities: Advances bardic music with new uses: remove fatigue (2nd), make foes shaken (3rd), encourage overland movement x150% (5th), inspire heroism (6th), frighten foes (7th), panic foes (9th), incite rage in 20 burst (10th)

Warsling Sniper: halfling slinger
Tier: +1; not bad, though I'd prefer to see it chained with Master Thrower
Logical entry: halfling Fighter 4/Ranger 1 with two Exotic Weapon proficiencies
Levels: 6; Good BAB and Ref
Abilities: warsling sneak attack +3d6, reroll concealment chance, Improved Critical with warsling, 2nd ricochet with skiprocks

Cheer up, I've only got four more 3.5 and two 3.0 books.

monty
2009-04-06, 05:53 PM
Magelord: Mage devoted to Spell MAstery
Tier: +0; wizard spontaneous casting is nothing to sneeze at. However, unless there's a way to get evasion in one level, you can't actually get the capstone pre-epic. If you have that, +1.
Logical entry: Wizard 9/Rogue 2 with one wasted feat (two if you count spell mastery)
Levels: 10, full arcane casting; Good Ref
Abilities: sneak attack +3d6, extra spells under Spell Mastery, spontaneous casting of Spell Mastery spells. Capstone: spontaneously apply metamagic feats to spontaneously cast mastered spells.

Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (feet) will get evasion for no class levels, although that makes it really feat-heavy (pun intended).

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-06, 08:33 PM
Monty: You've already spent three feats qualifying for Magelord. So, for a human mage, it's doable. Anyone else...

And here we go again: Serpent Kingdoms
Yuan-ti pureblood is the lowest EL Yuan-ti; right?

Ancient Master: Yuan-ti esoteric mage
Tier: -1; no PC completion and lack of synergy with... anything.
Logical entry: Yuan-ti pureblood (EL 6) Wizard 8; so, not a PC class. There are other class entries, but it needs 12 HD to qualify.
Levels: 10, no spell-casting
Abilities: A broad selection of enchantment and teleportation spell-like abilities.

Coiled Cultist: Yuan-ti arcane caster specializing in the handfang spell
Tier: -1; no PC completion and handfang is sub-optimal, what with the closing to melee range and everything. The Spell turning is nice, though.
Logical entry: Yuan-ti pureblood (EL 6) Wizard 6. Another non-PC class.
Levels: 10 at full arcane casting
Abilities: handfang with variant effects (instead of poison), spell turning 3/day .

Fang of Sseth: Assassin of the snake god
Tier: +0; the capstone is very nice, but the class is generally inferior to the assassin.
Logical entry: human Rogue 10 with two wasted feats
Levels: 10
Abilities: +4d6 sneak attack, bonus to ranged attacks (+1: 1st, +2: 6th), +1 saves vs poison every odd level, poison use, one pre-determined feat, spider climb at will (5th). Capstone: Greater invisibility (also hidden from scent and hearing) for 8 hours.

Master of Vipers
Tier: +0; flavorful, but not amazing.
Logical entry: Yuan-ti pureblood (EL 6) Ranger 4 with Great Fortitude
Levels: 10; 3/4 BAB, Good Fort
Abilities: immune poison, whole bunch of serpent themed abilities.

Naga Lord
Tier: -1; it isn't even completable by NPCs before epic levels! And completely useless for PCs, as none of the nagas have LAs. As a class, it's at least equal with mindbender
Logical entry: Dark Naga Sorcerer 3 with one wasted feat
Levels: 10 with full arcane progression, 3/4 BAB
Abilities: Automatic extend on many mass buff spells.

Serpent Slayer:
Tier: +0; useful if fighting Scaled Ones. Otherwise...
Logical entry: Cleric 8 with Combat Casting, Dodge and Mobility
Levels: 10 with full arcane or divine casting, 1/2 BAB, Good Fort and Will
Abilities: 3rd: poison immunity, 7th: melee touch: 2d4 vs scaled ones, a few other protective abilities

Shining South:
Crinti Shadow Marauder
Tier: +1: A very nice little class, similar in spirit to the Shadowdancer, but superior.
Logical entry: Ranger 5 with Stealthy
Levels: 5, 3/4 BAB, Good Ref
Abilities: Sudden strike +2d6, dimension door between shadows (50ft/level), Bonus mounted feat, shadow walk 1/day (3rd), full attack after teleportation (5th)

Great Rift Deep Defender
Tier: +0; High end. Better than the Dwarven Defender, since the abilities aren't use dependent.
Logical entry: Dwarf Fighter 7 with Dodge, Endurance and Toughness (same as dwarven defender).
Levels: 5, Good BAB, Fort, Will
Abilities: +1 dodge bonus to AC at odd levels, uncanny dodge (2nd; improved 4th), improved dwarven stability, no penalties in cramped conditions and +1 attack, +2 damage and DR 3/-.

Halruuan Elder
Tier: +2; metamagic reduction and circle magic. In the same class. Dear Heavens, what were they thinking?
Logical entry: human Wizard 7 with one wasted feat
Levels: 10 with full arcane progression
Abilities: by 10th level, reduces the cost of four metamagic feats by 1, minimum +1 (limited to once per feat). Circle magic. Isn't that enough?

Halruuan Magehand
Tier: -1; the SR compensates partial for the reduced casting, but not enough.
Logical entry: human Wizard 7 with Combat Casting, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes
Levels: 10 with 8/10 arcane or divine casting
Abilities: +1 saves verses spells at odd levels. 4th: SR 15 + magehound level. 10th: antimagic field 1/day.

Hand of the Adama: Enforcer of the Galactica captain. Or Specialist priest of the ideal of Adama.
Tier: +0. May be worth losing turning progression.
Logical entry: Cleric 5
Levels: 5 with full divine casting
Abilities: Some truth discerning and illusion piercing abilities, but nothing good. Flavorful though.

Jordain Vizier: Halruuan butler; breaking the proud tradition of exclusively evil viziers
Tier: +0; Flavorful and mostly useful. I only wish there was a High Will non-spellcasting class that fit better than monk.
Logical entry: Monk 8 with Iron Will and Spellwise. Can't have arcane abilities by fluff.
Levels: 5, 3/4 BAB and Good Will
Abilities: arcane SR of 10 + Vizier level + Cha mod. +1 attack and AC at even levels. Counterspell ability. Cha to saves verses spells (5th).

Luiren Marchwarden
Tier: +0; the limit on movement really hampers PCs. If the campaign is going to take place in whole within the March, it becomes +1.
Logical entry: halfling Ranger 5: Alertness, Investigator, Track
Levels: 5
Abilities: Massive save and AC bonus when within 5 miles per level of his march (target the class defends). All class abilities only function within the march, including hide in plain sight at 5th.

Maquar Crusader: National defender of Estagund
Tier: +0; Nothing remarkable, but not bad.
Logical entry: Paladin 5 with Alertness, Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus (falchion)
Levels: 10, Good Fort and Ref
Abilities: Some bodyguard abilities. One allows AoOs against those who attack the Crusader's charge, the other lets the Crusader make Reflex saves to deflect attacks against them.

Scourge Maiden: Specialist priestess of Loviatar (goddess of pain)
Tier: +0; not horrible for warrior clerics. Nauseate is really nasty.
Logical entry: Cleric 6 with one exotic weapon proficiency (scourge)
Levels: 6 with 3/6 divine casting
Abilities: abilities with a scourge (4th: stun, 5th: nauseate, 6th: knock prone and daze), miscellaneous spell-like abilities (bane and crushing despair)

arguskos
2009-04-06, 08:44 PM
Magelord: Mage devoted to Spell MAstery
Tier: +0; wizard spontaneous casting is nothing to sneeze at. However, unless there's a way to get evasion in one level, you can't actually get the capstone pre-epic. If you have that, +1.
Logical entry: Wizard 9/Rogue 2 with one wasted feat (two if you count spell mastery)
Levels: 10, full arcane casting; Good Ref
Abilities: sneak attack +3d6, extra spells under Spell Mastery, spontaneous casting of Spell Mastery spells. Capstone: spontaneously apply metamagic feats to spontaneously cast mastered spells.
Notably, the Divine Oracle gives prescient sense, which is identical to evasion. If your DM is nice enough to permit an identical ability, you can enter Magelord w/ Wiz 8/Divine Oracle 2, and get the Magelord cap at level 20. Just sayin'.

I'd rank Magelord w/ Oracle entry at +1.

sonofzeal
2009-04-06, 09:03 PM
Notably, the Divine Oracle gives prescient sense, which is identical to evasion. If your DM is nice enough to permit an identical ability, you can enter Magelord w/ Wiz 8/Divine Oracle 2, and get the Magelord cap at level 20. Just sayin'.

I'd rank Magelord w/ Oracle entry at +1.
A good point, but a bit finicky. I think +0 should be fine, and leave special "early entry" tricks like that as an exercise for the reader. ;)

arguskos
2009-04-06, 09:06 PM
A good point, but a bit finicky. I think +0 should be fine, and leave special "early entry" tricks like that as an exercise for the reader. ;)
Fair enough. Just thought I'd toss it out there, since I love that PrC and like raising awareness of better entries into it. :smallcool:

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-06, 11:32 PM
Thanks, guys. Any word on lower EL yuan-ti, or is Serpent Kingdoms DM province only?

Last two 3.5 FR books with prestige classes (I think).
Unapproachable East:
Aglarondan Griffonrider: yet another aerial fighter class.
Tier: +1: the best aerial mounted combat class I've seen so far.
Logical entry: Fighter 7
Levels: 10, Good BAB and Ref
Abilities: Griffon mount stacks with paladin, meaning that it's possible to have have a semi-durable mount if you go that route. Extra chances to negate hits on mount using Mounted Combat. Pre-determined aerial combat bonus feats.

Black Flame Zealot: Reproduced in Complete Divine. Still not any good.

Durthan: evil counterpart of the Hathran
Tier: -1; sadly, since it doesn't advance both arcane and divine casting, you lose three caster levels. Unacceptable considering the abilities. I love the picture, though.
Logical entry: nongood Cleric 3/Wizard 3 with Iron Will and Improved Counterspell
Levels: 10, advancing arcane or divine casting
Abilities: eventual cold immunity, telthor (spirit) companion, Captsone: +2 DC [cold] spells.

Master of the Yuirwood
Tier: -1; doesn't advance wild shape for druids and 3/4 BAB hurts rangers.
Logical entry: elf or half-elf Druid 7 with Alertness and Track or Ranger 7 with Alertness
Levels: 10, advancing arcane or divine casting; Good BAB and Fort
Abilities: Use menhir circles as portals, uncanny dodge (2nd; improved: 5th). Capstone: Cha to saves

Nar Demonbinder
Tier: +0; does demon summoning well, but not nearly as well as the Malconvoker.
Logical entry: Wizard 7 with Iron Will
Levels: 7, arcane spells of 4th through 8th level, with an emphasis on summoning and demonic spells
Abilities: fiendish familiar, plus a bunch of abilities that help trap or compel demonic types. Capstone: All damaging spells are half infernal damage, as flame strike.

Nentyar Hunter
Tier: +1; 5th level spells in 5 levels, including find the path and righteous might? Freedom of movement as a 3rd level spell?
Logical entry: Ranger 5 with Alertness, Combat Casting and Track
Levels: 5, with 3/4 BAB and 5th level spells, from a revised druid list.
Abilities: woodland stride, swift tracker, fast movement +10ft, +4 Spot, immune fear (1st-5th, in order)

Raumathari Battlemage
Tier: +1. Not a bad little gish class. A compromise between Eldritch Knight and Spellsword.
Logical entry: Wizard 5/Fighter 1 with Combat casting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
Levels: 10, with 9/10 arcane or divine casting. 3/4 BAB, Good Will.
Abilities: Channel spell (1st: 1st level spells 1/day, 3rd: 2nd 2/day, 7th: 3rd 3/day, 9th: 4th 4/day), spontaneous metamagic 1/day/even level gained (no level increase; Silent at 2nd, still at 4th, Empower at 6th, Quicken at 8th, Maximize at 10th)

Runescarred Berserker
Tier: +2; It may not bring quite as much power as the Champion of Gwynharwyf, but antimagic field on a barbarian after he dimension doored on top of you? That'll ruin any mage's day.
Logical entry: Barbarian 7 with Iron Will and Survivor
Levels: 10, 5th level spells with all the buff spells you'll ever need (antimagic field, air walk, heal). However, these spells can only be used for the purpose of scribing.
Abilities: scribe 'scrolls' on self, extra rages (2nd, 5th, 9th), natural armor +1 (3rd, 6th, 9th), DR +1/- (4th, 7th, 10th; doesn't stack with Barbarian DR), greater rage (8th).

Shou Disciple
Tier: +1; only for light armor folks who like lots of attacks: dual-wielding, sneak attacking rogues, anyone?
Logical entry: Monk 3/Fighter 2 or Rogue 5; Dodge Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus (unarmed). If the DM determines that Shou Disciple grants monk flurry of blows, then the Rogue entry improves tremendously.
Levels: 5; Good BAB, Fort and Ref
Abilities: Unarmed strike (1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 5th), two bonus feats (Monk-y ones mostly), Flurry with light weapons (3rd) or any melee weapon (5th).

Talontar Blightlord
Tier: +0; not bad, but reliant on armed melee combat, which makes druid enjoyment iffy. And it loses caster levels (6th and 10th)
Logical entry: Cleric or Druid 7 with Great Fortitude and Martial Weapon Proficiency (glaive)
Levels: 10 with 8/10 divine progression
Abilities: immune disease, animal companion gains blightspawned template, glaive wielded is icy burst (6th) and wounding (8th). Capstone: Plant type.

Telflammar Shadowlord
Tier: +2. I'm sorry, I'm still in awe at how awesome the spell list is.
Logical entry: shadow-walker template (+1 LA) Rogue 7 with Blind-fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack. If not a shadow-walker, Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 4 with Blindfight and Spring Attack qualifies.
Levels: 6, with 3rd level casting. Rocking spell list: 1st: invisibility 2nd: air walk, displacement, haste, improved invisibility 3rd: confusion, dimension door, mislead.
Abilities: Honestly, you had me at the spell list. See through magical darkness. Shadow Jump 20ft/class level. When not in conditions of illumination, blur effect (2nd). Full attack after teleporting (shadow jumping; 4th), When in shadow and reduced to 0 hp or below, chance to discorporate and reappear at the next sunset within a mile of his location (5th). Death attack (6th).

Thayan Slaver
Tier: +0; Not as good as the assassin in terms of spell list or sneak attack.
Logical entry: evil human Rogue 7
Levels: 10, casting 4th level spells. Spell list is focused on capturing creatures, though mostly single target effects.
Abilities: death attack (paralyze only; 1st), Wis damage with successful Intimidate check (2nd), +3d6 sneak attack, crippling strike (as rogue ability; 5th)

Dear heavens, was that two prestige classes at +2? I must be getting soft.

Underdark
Arachnomancer
Tier: +1; It may not seem like it, but it's a gish class in disguise. Strength damage by touch? Sounds like a job for a flurry of blows of monk pokes!
Logical entry: evil Monk 2/Wizard 3
Levels: 10, with 7/10 casting (arcane or divine). 3/4 BAB, Good Ref.
Abilities: Class level to saves against poison, Spiderform 3/day (2nd), poison touch (Str damage: 3rd: 1d4 Str, 6th: 1d6 Str, 9th: 1d8), command spiders, webwalking, wall of webs (as iron, except to the arachnomancer's benefit)

Cavelord
Tier: +1: very easy ranger entry, granting senses and a swim speed.
Logical entry: Ranger 5; very easy entry
Levels: 10
Abilities: Tunnelrunner bonus feat, swift tracker (underground only; 2nd), swim 30ft (4th), 1/day: Cavelord levels as insight bonus to Str (1 minute; 5th), tremorsense 30ft (7th). Capstone: when reduced to -10 or below hp, instead petrify, awaken 24 hours later with 1 hp (not nearly as good as the Shadowlord ability above).

Deep Diviner
Tier: +0; thou shalt not lose caster levels. Highly dependent on the presence of Earth Nodes.
Logical entry: Wizard 5 with Spell Focus (divination)
Levels: 10, 9/10 casting progression (arcane or divine)
Abilities: Entirely dependent on Earth Node spellcasting. I skimmed that section, and briefly, because I bought this book for the drow and devourer goodness, not for pansy earth magic. Any comments from people who've seen it in action?

Drow Judicator
Tier: +1; it does blackguard better than the blackguard. Not by much, but still.
Logical entry: evil drow Ranger 5
Levels: 10, 3/10 spellcasting progression, Good BAB and Fort
Abilities: evil paladin of Selvetarm; 2d6 Con in a strike 1/day (1st), Coomand spiders (2nd), +3 profane bonus to saves (2nd), smite (4th: 1/day, 7th: 2/day, 10th: 3/day), spider mount (5th), 1/day: horrid wilting on desired targets within 100ft (10th).

Illithid Body Tamer
Tier: +1; it is a fabulous class, and would be +2, if only there was an obvious way for PCs to enter. Now, I have my own illithids at a lower EL, but that's neither here nor there (refluffed yuan-ti).
Logical entry: An illithid can enter this class with only the feats: Great Fortitude, Power Attack and Weapon Focus (tentacle). PCs...really can't, since I don't have an LA on the half-illithid template. Assuming half-illithid LA +7, a Fighter 6 would qualify, but not be able to finish.
Levels: 10, Good BAB, Fort and Ref.
Abilities: Bonus hp and damage when haven't used psionic abilities in 24 hours. Two increases to base tentacle damage (3rd and 8th), Improved Trip, Disarm (tentacles only), +5ft reach with tentacles (6th), Whirlwind attack with tentacles (7th) with becomes a death effect at 10th.

Imaskari Vengeance Taker
Tier: +0; not as generally good as the assassin, but against designated foes...+11 damage per hit at 10th level? I see possible abuse potential.
Logical entry: Ranger 1/Wizard 5
Levels: 10, 5/10 arcane casting; 3/4 BAB, Good Ref and Will
Abilities: +4d6 sneak attack, poison use (2nd), favored enemy +2 verses individual sworn foe (1 day to assign; +1 to favored enemy per level in class), death attack (10th).

Inquisitor of the drowning goddess
Tier: +0; does inquisitor well, but doesn't synergize that well with monk.
Logical entry: kuo-toa (EL 5) Monk 3
Levels: 5
Abilities: kuo-toa adhesive on grappling, various skill (intimidate and sense motive) and save bonuses.

Prime Underdark Guide
Tier: +0; it functions very well, but that function isn't all that important in terms of most adventures. Lacking in combat skills, primarily.
Logical entry: Ranger 4/ Rogue 1 with Alertness
Levels: 10, with 4th level casting: the ranger list on steroids (dimension door, good hope)
Abilities: Mass aiding on skill checks to navigate hostile environments, trapsense (+2 at 2nd, +4 at 4th, helps allies at 6th, +6 at 8th), Underdark lore (as bardic knowledge but Underdark only)

Sea Mother Whip
Tier: +1; helps kuo-toa PCs, since their racial abilities aren't by lack of other kuo-toa.
Logical entry: Kuo-Toa (EL 5) Cleric 5
Levels: 5 with full divine casting
Abilities: Watery Death domain, solo lightning bolt, +2 DC lighting bolts

Shadowcrafter
Tier: +0; by itself, nothing all that terribly impressive.
Logical entry: Wizard 5; I assume that someone can point out a 3rd level Illusion (shadow) spell.
Levels: 10, with full arcane or divine casting
Abilities: Enhanced reality on shadow conjurations and evocations? I doubt that'll ever be useful (+20% by 7th level; *cough* Killer Gnome and hyper-real illusions *cough*). The capstone is dreadful, granting DR 10/magic.

Vermin Keeper
Tier: +0
Logical entry: Druid 5 with Iron Will
Levels: 10 with full arcane or divine casting
Abilities: transform into vermin forms, from Fine (8th) to Huge (9th), and everything in between. The abusable part comes when they can assume the form of swarms at 10th (if one escapes, does the Vermin Keeper live?) Immunity to poison (3rd), vermin companion (3rd; can't have vermin and animal companions)

Yathchol Webrider
Tier: -1; exactly the same boat as the shadowdancer, except webs are rarer than shadows.
Logical entry: Yathchol (EL 4) Rogue 3 (Or Wizard 3/Rogue 2) with Dodge, Mobility and Skill Focus (craft: trapmaking)
Levels: 10
Abilities: Hide in plain sight (near webs only), web ride (as shadowdancer's shadow walk), spider climbing, web blast (damage and web effect)

Oh, merciful heavens. Finally done with all the 3.5 classes. Just two books left. On the next update, I conclude the rolls of Faerunian prestige classes!

Chronos
2009-04-06, 11:50 PM
Shadowcrafter
Tier: +2; essential part of the hyperreal illusions of the Shadowcraft MageI'm not sure that it really matters, after you get to 100%, since after that, your enemies can just deliberately fail their saves. And the Killer Gnome can hit 100% using nothing but Shadowcraft Mage and Earth Spell. If that's all this class has going for it, that's not nearly enough for +2 status.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-06, 11:57 PM
Excellent point. I'll drop it to +0.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-07, 12:53 AM
I'm not sure that it really matters, after you get to 100%, since after that, your enemies can just deliberately fail their saves. And the Killer Gnome can hit 100% using nothing but Shadowcraft Mage and Earth Spell. If that's all this class has going for it, that's not nearly enough for +2 status.Yes, they can auto-fail their saves, but will they? Choosing not to save against a spell seems more than a bit odd to me. Besides, getting even your weakest spells to perfectly real is pretty useful, IMHO.

sonofzeal
2009-04-07, 01:57 AM
Shadowcrafter may be part of a deliciously broken combo, but we're not really judging combos here. Shadowcraft Mage is its own combo; Shadowcrafter is just a nice bit of synergy on top of that, and works well in that context, but seems rather mediocre when taken by itself. I'd say +0 sounds right, and leave the hyperreal potential up to the skill of the optimizer.

Samb
2009-04-07, 11:49 AM
Zeal, dis of Amodeus should be +1, I made a typo.

Coginition thief runs off the psionic handbook not XPH so the entry class is iffy. One requirement is having psionic blast which is a 3rd level power. 5th level psion/wilder can get it or the feat illithid blast from a 3rd level dip/psi race. As a psion entry it would be +0 since you lose 8th and 9th level powers but gain 8 bonus telepath powers at the levels which you don't gain MLs. As a spy rogue/psiwarrior dip with illithid blast it should be a +1, because read thoughts at will really is that good.

sonofzeal
2009-04-08, 12:23 AM
Dis of Asmodeus corrected... and that massive list of updates is finally finished.


Tam_OConnor, due to the size of the list I'm not going to add any more 3.0 material to it. Any 3.5 PrCs are fine though, even if they're from sources not normally used for PCs.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-08, 06:43 AM
Fine by me. Saves me from trying to find all the prestige classes scattered through Lords of Darkness. I'll check to see if there are any 3.5 books we haven't added.

EDIT: Damnit, another one? *Goes to update kill count*

Salvonus
2009-04-11, 08:14 AM
I was the one that gave the flayerspawn psychic 0, and I also think the cognition thief is 0 as well and it has little to do with just being psionic.

Reading thoughts is the whole basis of cognitin thief, and not many PrC give allow you do anything at will. That's why half fey template is so good, for the charm at will. No limits on how often to use, automaticaly augmented to max. Even The illithid have a limit on how often they can blast people. It's a great capstone for an entry class (psionic race/dip rogue) that didn't need the ML to begin with.
Telepath entry? I don't think so. None of the class features support it really. An espianoge rogue with dip in psionic class seems to make much more sense.

Fair play. I suppose so, but you are sacrificing BAB, Sneak Attack, and skills. I suppose there is an argument for Rogue entry being +0. I'd suggest a note to that effect - it's probably -1 for straight Psion, though.


I have played with a flayerspawn psychic and he was pretty decent. But I have to account for him not being an average player. Lose of 4ML is made up for the fact that you gain a lot in offense (grapple and extract). The thing is you don't play FSP as a psion but almost like a Gish in that you would be meleeing (tentcles have improved grapple and weapon finesse on them).

:smallconfused:

A Gish class with 1/2 BAB? That's a new one. :smallconfused:

If you want to be a Psionic grappler, why wouldn't you be a Psychic Warrior? Besides, the Psychic Warrior gets 4 feats in 10 levels. Since Illithid Heritage feats ARE Psionic feats, a Psychic Warrior can actually get further along your Illithid Grapple chain by going straight class!

It's gotta be -1 or -2 for Psion entry. It just doesn't give the Psion anything...

Is it really a +0 class? I don't see it. :smallconfused: Seems you lose 4 ML (and BAB, in the case of a Psychic Warrior) for very little, especially given that you can take Illithid feats with your regular bonus feats. :smalltongue:

(Oh, yeah, and you're actually not gaining feats, as far as I can see, because you'll certainly want Practised Manifester to make up the lost ML - otherwise, your augmentation is gonna suck.)

Salvonus
2009-04-11, 10:07 AM
Races of Eberron:

Atavist: If you can last the whole class, it's a nice +1 tier. There are some slow spots, but the capstone is pretty damn nice. Not a bad class for a monk or soulknife, although it does better in a campaign with other Kalashtar and in a Quori-centric campaign. :smalltongue:

Cabinet Trickster: Nice little class, and only 5 levels. +1 tier, easily. :smallsmile: Does anyone else think that it could be +2 tiers? I'm not confident enough to claim that, but there could be a case. Thoughts? :smallwink: Magnificent PrC for any Changeling social skill monkey. If that's your bag, I actually can't think of a reason to NOT take it. :smalltongue:

Moonspeaker: Relatively easy qualification, exceptional class. +1 tier, no doubt. Maybe even +2? At least, for a Cleric...? Kn: Nature isn't hard to get. Exceptional class.

Quori Nightmare: Not bad. I'd say it qualifies as +1 tier for a Psychic Warrior. Not bad for Psion entry, although you'll be uncomfortably close to the front lines if you want to use your Disturbing Touch ability. I'd say it's +1 tier across the board, although there is an argument that it's only +0 tier due to the "melee suicide" designation of the class' primary ability. Use Metamorphosis. :smallwink:

Reachrunner: I'd say it's a +0. Ranger PrC... It's not bad, but I would hardly call it exceptional. :smalltongue:

Recaster: Loverly little PrC. So many abilities in only 5 levels! I'd say it more than makes up for the single lost CL. Solid +1 tier.

Reforged: I don't know how to handle this one. It's kinda like a Paragon class, in a way. It seems like more of a roleplaying class than anything else. Still, it's only a 3-level class. I'd say it's a weak +0 tier, but there's an argument for -1 tier. I'd call it "okay-ish". :smalltongue: The nice thing is, you keep the immunities of being Warforged, without the downsides.

Spellcarved Soldier: It's okay-ish. +0 tier for Tier 4 fighter classes (with a dip for the spellcasting/infusions necessary to qualify), but it's not exceptional... Still, immunity to sneak attacks/critical hits and being able to wear an extra ring is pretty handy.

Races of Faerun:

Battlerager: A bit underwhelming, but you DO get a bunch of extra rages and bonus feats. I'd say +0 tier, especially if you're a Tier 4 melee class that dipped Barbarian. :smallconfused:

Bladesinger: I'm tempted to say that it's -1 tier, even though it grants limited casting. It just requires SO many suboptimal feats! Besides which, you don't get to ignore ASF in light armor until the 7th level of the PrC. It's mostly those prereqs that render it -1 tier, though. I can't figure out what the logical entry is!

Breachgnome: Kinda mediocre. Listen and Spot are pretty hard to get for a Fighter, and that's about the only class that does will with this PrC... :smallconfused: You basically need to have dipped Ranger to be able to take this PrC as a Fighter. If you did manage to do that, I guess it qualifies as +0 tier for Tier 4 melee classes. Underwhelming.

Elven High Mage: Epic, so I ignored it. :smalltongue:

Great Rift Skyguard: Pretty cool and amusing, but not amazing. +0 tier for Tier 4 entry only.

Orc Warlord: Well, it helps you cheese out Leadership. :smalltongue: I guess that earns it a +1 tier... I dunno. Hm. :smallconfused:

Spellsinger: Again, underwhelming. I don't know how to interpret the "Bardic Music" section - does it progress your songs known (and the strength of your Inspire Courage)? I'm guessing the answer to that is "no". Honestly, I'm almost tempted to say it's -1 tier because you lose music progression for very little benefit, but I guess a +0 tier designation is fair.

Warrior Skald: This is actually pretty good, when you consider that even a one-level dip allows you to get all Bardic Songs. Technically speaking, you only need one level in Bard to get Perform as a class skill (or get it some other way...), so you can enter this in a myriad of ways. I'd say it's a +1 tier class for hybrid (melee-focused) entry, although for a straight (melee) Bard entry it falls to +0 tier [or even -1 tier, depending on how highly you value Bardic spellcasting].

Warsling Sniper: Not impressed by any stretch. -1 tier, just 'cause the requirements are a tad steep for very little benefit. There's a case for +0 tier, although I don't feel too generous. :smalltongue:

Comments, please? :smallsmile:

quick_comment
2009-04-14, 01:05 PM
I think that Shadow Sentinal(race of destiny) should be at least +1.

1) As a swift action, you can make your next attack a touch attack
2) You can change your weapon metal and alignment, which is a minor bonus, but not.
3) You gain the ability to deal permanent strength damage with each attack. At level 10, its 5 points per attack. No save, no SR. Its amazing for mage-killing. Except when polymorphed, the average mage has what? 8, 10 strength?

sonofzeal
2009-04-25, 08:57 PM
Non-setting books needed: Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, and Weapons of Legacy.




Books
Lost Empires of Faerun - Tam_OConnor
Races of Eberron (ave: +0.625) - Salvonus
Serpent Kingdoms (ave: -0.06) - Tam_OConnor
Unapproachable East (ave: +0.417) - Tam_OConnor
Underdark (ave: +0.333) - Tam_OConnor


Up Two
Halruuan Elder
Moonspeaker (with Knowledge Devotion)
Runescarred Berserker
Telflammar Shadowlord


Up One
Acolyte of the Ego
Aglarondan Griffonrider
Arachnomancer
Atavist
Breachgnome
Cabinet Trickster
Cavelord
Drow Judicator
Elven High Mage
Illithid Body Tamer
Nentyar Hunter
Olin Gisir
Orc Warlord
Raumathari Battlemage
Recaster
Sea Mother Whip
Shadow Sentinal
Shining South
Shou Disciple
Warrior Skald
Quori Nightmare


Equal
Battlerager
Cultist of the Shattered Peak
Deep Diviner
Disciple of the Word
Fang of Sseth
Fiendbinder
Great Rift Deep Defender
Great Rift Skyguard
Hand of the Adama
Imaskari Vengeance Taker
Inquisitor of the Drowning Goddess
Jordain Vizier
Luiren Marchwarden
Magelord
Maquar Crusader
Master of Vipers
Nar Demonbinder
Prime Underdark Guide
Reachrunner
Reforged
Scourge Maiden
Serpent Slayer
Shadowcrafter
Spellcarved Soldier
Spellsinger
Spinemeld Warrior
Talontar Blightlord
Thayan Slaver
Vermin Keeper
Warsling Sniper


Down One
- Shadow Sentinal
Ancient Master
Coiled Cultist
Durthan
Glorious Servitor
Halruuan Magehand
Master of the Yuirwood
Naga Lord
Sunmaster
Yathchol Webrider


Down Two
- Spinemeld Warrior
Bereft
Brimstone Speaker

Eldariel
2009-04-25, 09:07 PM
I know it'd be a huge hurdle, but...I can't help but notice how the index is growing huge and trying to find a specific class is a pain, so have you considered ordering it all into groups? Like "Complete-series", "Races-series", "Mastering the Hazards Of..."-series, "Faerun-books", "Eberron-books", etc.? That would make browsing the index a lot easier.

Also, the "up two, up one, even, etc." could all be in one spoiler tag for each group this way making opening it and searching for any given PrC easier. Of course, I understand completely if you feel it's too much work. Just a suggestion.

sonofzeal
2009-04-25, 09:10 PM
I know it'd be a huge hurdle, but...I can't help but notice how the index is growing huge and trying to find a specific class is a pain, so have you considered ordering it all into groups? Like "Complete-series", "Races-series", "Mastering the Hazards Of..."-series, "Faerun-books", "Eberron-books", etc.? That would make browsing the index a lot easier.

Also, the "up two, up one, even, etc." could all be in one spoiler tag for each group this way making opening it and searching for any given PrC easier. Of course, I understand completely if you feel it's too much work. Just a suggestion.
I've actually considered this. I didn't really think about the sheer scale of the project when I started, and I agree that a better system would have helped. That said, while I'd absolutely love to see it done, I have my hands full just making all the additions. If someone else (cough, cough) PM'd me a resorted list, I'd totally post it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-26, 11:48 AM
I'd recommend moving Shadowbane Inquisitor to -1. It's Rogue/Paladin multiclass, yes, and the only way to do it, but the requirements hurt, SA is progressed extremely slowly, Smite adds a second progression instead of stacking, and most of the minor abilities are weaker than just progressing Paladin. You could be better just by using Devoted Inquisitor to take a Rogue level after every few Paladin ones.

Chronos
2009-04-26, 12:19 PM
A second progression for Smite isn't all that bad, since you can just use both of your smites on the same attack. And feats like Extra Smiting and Sapphire Smite apply to all of your smite attacks, not just one, which can make it actually better to have multiple sorts of Smite.

Samb
2009-04-26, 12:36 PM
Zeal, dis of Amodeus should be +1, I made a typo.

Coginition thief runs off the psionic handbook not XPH so the entry class is iffy. One requirement is having psionic blast which is a 3rd level power. 5th level psion/wilder can get it or the feat illithid blast from a 3rd level dip/psi race. As a psion entry it would be +0 since you lose 8th and 9th level powers but gain 8 bonus telepath powers at the levels which you don't gain MLs. As a spy rogue/psiwarrior dip with illithid blast it should be a +1, because read thoughts at will really is that good.

Bah I'm an idiot, the entry class of cognition thief is a wilder. Lose of ML is not a big deal since you will be using wild surge to buffer it anyway. The extra 8 telepathy powers makes up for the wilder's greatest weakness: lack of powers.

You know what awesome power is in telepathy? Schism. Cognition thief at -1 is really not right.

Chronos
2009-04-26, 10:02 PM
I just looked over Wonderworker again, and realized it's not as bad as we were thinking. A cleric 17/wonderworker 3 actually gets one more 8th-level spell than a straight cleric 20 (or equivalent with full-casting PrCs), and the same number of spells at every other level. Plus, you gain a net of two feats (counting Companion of the Heavens or whatever as a wasted feat) and a couple of extra skill points each level. The only drawback is that you lose some caster level, but you could make that up with a single Practiced Spellcaster, and still be up one feat. All in all, as long as you have at least four exalted feats you want to take, it's slightly better than the logical entry base class.

Saint Nil
2009-04-27, 06:42 PM
Excuss me, which book is the Planar Shepard in?

monty
2009-04-27, 06:46 PM
Excuss me, which book is the Planar Shepard in?

Faiths of Eberron.

Saint Nil
2009-04-27, 06:48 PM
Thank you. Now I just need to find a way to make my DM allow it.:smallamused:

sonofzeal
2009-04-28, 02:43 AM
Thank you. Now I just need to find a way to make my DM allow it.:smallamused:
Really, really, really not recommended. I mean, some PrCs are overpowered (hence the whole Up Two tier), and some are exploitable and can be used to do scary things. Planar Sheppard is neither of those. It doesn't break the game, it ends the game. I mean, with the wrong choice of plain it's merely a significantly-boosted Druid (and Druids are already one of the Big 5); with the right choice, any aspect of D&D that has any right to be called a "game" is over. You get nigh-infinite turns between everyone else's actions, so you can basically do whatever you want and nobody anywhere (except possibly another Planar Sheppard, or a certain kobold) has any way to stop you. There's no competition, there's no challenge, there's not even any story. It's just all over...

....and then someone throws a book at you, and you don't get invited back. Good times. :smallcool:

sonofzeal
2009-04-30, 12:45 AM
Updates included!

The end's in sight! Does anyone have any of: Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, or Weapons of Legacy?

Frosty
2009-04-30, 02:07 AM
I got Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II. I am familiar only with Dungeonscape, FCII, and Dungeonscape.

Salvonus
2009-04-30, 09:01 AM
Heroes of Battle:

Combat Medic: +1 tier. Evasion, Spontaneous Heal, and Healing Kicker are all pretty solid abilities, given that you don't give up any CL. It's quite good when you enter with an Arcane full caster via Arcane Disciple (Healing), as you eventually get the ability to cast one of the best Healing spells spontaneously.

Dread Commando: +0 tier. Some nice stealth abilities, but I don't really see anything that actually makes this PrC a better option that keeping one's Ranger/Scout/Rogue progress intact.

Legendary Commando: Pretty much depends on your campaign. It's pretty dependent on HoB's rule additions, and I cannot claim to really understand them. I guess, if you're using those rules, it's a +1 tier class for a Fighter. Not sure it's worth it for anyone else, though.

War Weaver: +1 tier. Eldritch Tapestry is a pretty awesome ability, and Enlarged Tapestry is an excellent capstone. One of those cases where losing a CL is certainly worth it.

Miniatures Handbook:

Bonded Summoner: It makes Complete Arcane's Elemental Savant look positively overpowered. Utter shiet; -2 tier.

Dragon Samurai: Get a breath weapon 1/day and some mediocre abilities. I'm tempted to say that even a Fighter is better off without this. -1 tier.

Havoc Mage: If this was a full attack, maybe it would be okay-ish. As it stands, you can only make a single weapon attack while casting a spell, in exchange for 2 levels of CL progression. Not worth it; -1 tier.

Skullclan Hunter: Very nice class for Rogues in an Undead-heavy campaign - the Turn Undead requirement isn't a big deal, as a 1-level dip in Cloistered Cleric isn't too bad at all. Nice immunities, Sneak Attack vs. Undead, permanent Protection from Evil, automatically overcome Undead DR, and permanent Ghost Touch for free? Yeah, that's the ticket. +1 tier, although you do need to have a significant contingent of Undead to make it worthwhile.

Tactical Soldier: The class is about as inspired as the name might suggest. The only particularly good ability is at 1st level, and a Ranger with the Distracting Attack ACF is strictly better. -1 tier - I swear, this book makes Fighter 20 look like an attractive option.

War Hulk: This class is pretty damn weird, what with the 0/1 BAB... Even without Hulking Hurler abuse, this is a pretty damn strong class. I'd say it's +2 tier, although there's an argument that it's only +1 tier. I dunno, though, +20 Str kinda makes losing BAB seem a bit less important. Thank goodness that using Legacy Champion with this sucker is impossible! But... 7 levels of Cleric = Divine Power = FUUU-

Warchief: Weird class - very campaign-dependent. I'm just going to say +0 tier, assuming that you're actually in a situation where this PrC is worth taking (i.e. you're the leader of a tribe).

Cityscape:

Urban Savant: Solid +1 tier. Some very handy abilities (including gaining access to a lot of metagame knowledge while in-character) and easy entry requirements. The final level loses a CL, but it's hardly necessary for you to take it - the rest of the class stands up well on its own.

Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde:

Serene Guardian: Based around a strange "Resonance" mechanic. You can get this weird half monk advancement thing going on. I'd say it's... +0 tier for a Fighter or Monk. The problem is that it's hard to build up enough Resonance to really pull off much. Just saw that someone on BG claimed this to be a +2 tier class. I'd say that a middle ground is more appropriate - +1 tier. You don't get Confounding Release (the ability that allows you to effectively confusion-lock your opponent) until 8th level, and the rest of the class is solid rather than amazing. Also, you don't get Wis to AC - you have to be a Monk before entering the class to gain the benefits of "Monk Advancement". I guess there could be a case for +2 tier, but +1 tier seems a safer bet.

Solar Channeler: The 1st level ability would be nice... except you lose a CL to get it. The rest of the class is pretty much useless, with the "signature ability" easily replicated by a handful of spells. -1 tier.

Dark Scholar: Lose a CL at the first level, but gain access to a couple interesting abilities. Most of the Book Masteries are fairly minor benefits, but you do have a couple stand-outs - the ability to use Divine scrolls and automatic Silent Spell for spells of your highest level-2 and below. Overall, it's nothing spectacular, but isn't that bad either. +0 tier.

Twisted Lord: An interesting PrC, and one of the few that gets 8+Int skill points/level. A number of the abilities are rather interesting, and the capstone could be pretty useful. I'd say that it's +0 tier.

Chronos
2009-04-30, 10:07 PM
Thank goodness that using Legacy Champion with this sucker is impossible!Why is that, and does it also apply to Uncanny Trickster?

Salvonus
2009-05-01, 12:11 AM
The War Hulk has a first level ability that makes all your skill ranks in Cha/Int/Wis based skills (minus Intimidate) to count as "0" for all purposes. The Legacy Champion requires ranks in Knowledge: History. Insofar as I know, there's no way to get around that. Ergo, Legacy Champion does not work with War Hulk (phew!).

Uncanny Trickster requires 8 ranks in 4 skills, so (unfortunately) it's actually possible to combine it with War Hulk (providing you have enough skill points, of course). :smallfrown:

[edit] The ability is Ex and called "No Time to Think".

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-01, 12:27 AM
The War Hulk has a first level ability that makes all your skill ranks in Cha/Int/Wis based skills (minus Intimidate) to count as "0" for all purposes. The Legacy Champion requires ranks in Knowledge: History. Insofar as I know, there's no way to get around that. Ergo, Legacy Champion does not work with War Hulk (phew!).

Uncanny Trickster requires 8 ranks in 4 skills, so (unfortunately) it's actually possible to combine it with War Hulk (providing you have enough skill points, of course). :smallfrown:

[edit] The ability is Ex and called "No Time to Think".Now I'm curious. What poorly-worded ability based on class levels does the War Hulk get?

Also, depending on how your group handles losing prerequisites, it may well be possible to combine it with Legacy Champion, just by going X 5/LC 1/WH 1/LC X.

Salvonus
2009-05-01, 12:39 AM
Now I'm curious. What poorly-worded ability based on class levels does the War Hulk get?

There is no such ability. The idea is more to get all the class features (+20 Str over 10 levels) while maintaining 3/4 BAB progression - thus neutralising the only mitigating factor of that massive strength increase.


Also, depending on how your group handles losing prerequisites, it may well be possible to combine it with Legacy Champion, just by going X 5/LC 1/WH 1/LC X.

That's a pretty sketchy assumption. Given that such a rule would be counter to RAW (which is, mind you, counter-intuitive in of itself - helloooo Dragon Disciple), you're entering houserule territory. If a DM has got a houserule like that, I can't see why on earth they wouldn't shoot down such cheese as LC-advancing-Warhulk right away. In this case, it seems very counter to the intent of "No Time to Think".

Then again, doesn't the rule about losing prerequisites only appear in Complete Warrior? I guess that if you don't have that book, you're okay. :smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-01, 12:47 AM
That's a pretty sketchy assumption. Given that such a rule would be counter to RAW (which is, mind you, counter-intuitive in of itself - helloooo Dragon Disciple), you're entering houserule territory. If a DM has got a houserule like that, I can't see why on earth they wouldn't shoot down such cheese as LC-advancing-Warhulk right away. In this case, it seems very counter to the intent of "No Time to Think".

Then again, doesn't the rule about losing prerequisites only appear in Complete Warrior? I guess that if you don't have that book, you're okay. :smallwink:CWar and one other, and it can be argued successfully to only apply to those 2 based on the wording of it. It's not guaranteed, but the RaI is sketchy on the subject(Dragon Disciple, Reaping Mauler, etc), and the RaW is confusing, so there's definitely an argument either way.

Chronos
2009-05-01, 12:52 AM
Ah, I figured it was something to do with No Time to Think, but I thought that only prevented you from using those skills, rather than setting your ranks to zero. I've never actually seen the class itself (nor Legacy Champion, for that matter), only descriptions of it.

And the other way to break War Hulk wide open, of course, is to take it on one side in a gestalt game. Fighter/barbarian/warblade/whatever with full BAB and +20 str? Yes please.

Salvonus
2009-05-01, 12:56 AM
Oh, there's certainly an argument either way. Generally speaking, you have to be sane and sensible about it. Shocking, eh? :smallwink:

It's a bit of a silly thing to argue about, since one should really just use common sense in these matters. That probably means that combining Warhulk and Legacy Champion should be impossible. Still, as you said, there's an argument that exists for it... A hazy part of the rules, to be sure.

(Also, just for another example of the contradictory RAW, Shadowbane Inquisitor's "Absolute Conviction" would imply that an alignment shift may not be enough to cause you to lose your class abilities. [Of course, like the CWar thing, you could argue that it only applies to that specific class.] I seriously doubt that even the designers are particularly clear on this rule.)

And Gestalt with a War Hulk would be INSANE. :smalleek:

[edit] By the way, with your sig there... Wouldn't a fitting addition be "The FAQ isn't necessarily RAI." 'cause, really, it's not, from what I can tell. It's mostly just an interpretation of the rules by CustServe/the Sage, who have been known to contradict themselves (and a number of quite clear rules, for that matter) in the past.

Eldariel
2009-05-01, 01:39 AM
And the other way to break War Hulk wide open, of course, is to take it on one side in a gestalt game. Fighter/barbarian/warblade/whatever with full BAB and +20 str? Yes please.

But if you're playing Gestalt, you could just be playing a shapechanger on the other side (that is, Druid or Wildshape Ranger/MoMF) and get equivalent bonuses along with thousands of other kinds of boons.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 05:12 AM
I personally don't consider rogue to have better SA since what weapon they use rarely has as much effect as how much d6's they use and in rogue 5/ IB 5 has 6d6 while rogue 10 only has 5d6.

If you said war mind was for psionic races that were in a non psionic class then I could see how war mind's requirement were easier to meet. But as it stands a human psiwarrior could meet all but the concentration requirement by level 1. I hardly find that any harder than war mind.
I just think that ranking it high when it doesn't increase ML to be very counterintuitive. Especially when one of the requirements is be psionic. I mean imagine an arcane PrC that required you to be able to cast 1st lvl spells but then advanced spells at it's own rate? I would not consider a win for the PC since I basically had to repeat my "freshman" caster level.

Ur-Priest :smallwink:

Fastest entry involves a level dip of Cleric. Which is then not only ignored, but actually negated by Ur-Priest.

Yes, you can also do it with Savage Bard, but that's Unearthed Arcana and hence not actually within RAW.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 05:15 AM
But if you're playing Gestalt, you could just be playing a shapechanger on the other side (that is, Druid or Wildshape Ranger/MoMF) and get equivalent bonuses along with thousands of other kinds of boons.

Or just take Bear Warrior in a single-classed game. Duh.

Salvonus
2009-05-01, 08:14 AM
If you said war mind was for psionic races that were in a non psionic class then I could see how war mind's requirement were easier to meet. But as it stands a human psiwarrior could meet all but the concentration requirement by level 1. I hardly find that any harder than war mind.
I just think that ranking it high when it doesn't increase ML to be very counterintuitive. Especially when one of the requirements is be psionic. I mean imagine an arcane PrC that required you to be able to cast 1st lvl spells but then advanced spells at it's own rate? I would not consider a win for the PC since I basically had to repeat my "freshman" caster level.

A reserve of 1 pp does not equal 1st level casting, though, namely because there are ways (such as Hidden/Wild Talent) in which you can easily acquire it without investing levels in a manifesting class. Hidden Talent isn't even a wasted feat, as there are some pretty cool first level powers that don't depend to much on augmentation. (Minor Creation, anyone?) Given that you can qualify for that requirement by race or through a single feat, it's a bit silly to look at the class only from a manifester entry point of view. It's much more of a "dabbler" sort of class to my thinking.

Same goes for the Pyrokineticist, really. The only ability that actually gets any use out of having more than 1 pp is the 6th level Firewalk ability. These aren't the sort of classes you should enter from a manifester perspective, in my opinion. For non-manifester entry, they're really quite excellent.

MeklorIlavator
2009-05-01, 10:59 AM
If you're still looking for someone to do the Draconomicon, I can help.
Draconomicon:
Normal Classes-the following classes don't require a heavy amount of dragons to do their thing.
Dracolyte +0 Tier:Nothing besides the capstone really stands out to me in this class as good, and that's counterbalanced by needing to look after a wyrmling.

Dragonkith -1 Tier: This class really doesn't give you much good stuff besides +4 NA. I mean, 3d6 more damage once per day? Are you kiding me? You'd probably be better just sticking with your Base Class

Dragon Rider +0 Tier:The problem with this class is that their main class feature, riding a dragon, isn't a class feature. If you end up riding a dragon it's decent, otherwise not so much.

Dragonsong Lyrist +0 Tier:The main problem is that of the 5 songs, only 2(Strength and Flight) really seem worth it. Hell, you pretty much get song of compulsion as a normal bard.

Hordestealer -1 Tier:This is a tricky one. It makes you pretty good at it's chosen area. I'm just not sure that it's worth it to be good in that area. You'll end up losing alot of combat ability in exchange for some pretty minor abilities, Skill Mastery, and some spells from a minor spell list. In the end, it's just not worth it.

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries +0 Tier: For a monk PrC, I guess it does all right. Make sure that the Dm realizes that they forgot to ad a line saying monks who took it could continue to advance.

Talon of Tiamat -2 Tier: This class kinda confuses me. It's obviously meant as a counterpart to the Platinum Knight, but I'm not sure how well they stack up. Plus, what class would actually be good with this added on? At least the first had a role.

Dragon classes: The following classes really need a Dragon/Dragon Heavy game to work well. In such games, their tier changes to the one in bold at the end of their entry.

Dragon Slayer -1 Tier:There isn't too much to say on this one. He doesn't really gain much good stuff, and most of the okay stuff is limited to dragons.
+0 Tier

Dragon Stalker -1 Tier:The real problem with this class is that it's major abilities are focused on dragons so much, so it's either really good if Dragons are around, or bad if they aren't.+1 Tier

Platinum Knight -1 Tier: Unless there are tons of evil dragons wandering around, just stick with being a paladin. Even then, you'l only really break even.+0 Tier

Duff
2009-05-29, 02:42 AM
Thats what the arcane prepration feat is for.

So Mage of the Arcane Order for a beguiler would be broken?

KazilDarkeye
2009-05-29, 03:13 AM
I would like to take a crack at Fiendish Codex II. I will update this soon.
Apologies in advance for any disagreement.

Hellbreaker
Even
Reason: In order to use the class' main ability (Steal Spell-Like Ability), you have to
1. Hit them (not too difficult, usually)
2. Gain a Sneak Attack (most things immune to Sneak Attack don't have any Sp Abilities anyway)
Even then, you need to be fighting something with good SpA's, and you don't gain SA dice very quickly.
The Static ability is quite nice, but it only functions out to 20f.t., so you need to get up close and personal (which you would do anyway, but may be difficult).
So overall (especially with the Level Limit for the SpA you can steal), I'd say it's Even.

Hellfire Warlock
+1
The entry requirements are fairly basic, but you have to know one of 2 sub-par invocations (brimstone blast or hellrime blast). Out of the two, I would usually pick up hellrime blast unless you are fighting an unusually large number of creatures weak against fire.
It's a short prestige class - you don't have to wait too long to get the nice abilities, and you don't lose any evoker levels.
You may deal very large amounts of damage with Hellfire Blast, and if neccesary Hellfire Shield (to surprise unsuspecting Fighters). Unfortunatly, Hellfire Shield has a Reflex save so be warned.
To reduce the effectiveness of ranged attacks I'd recommend Entropic Shield.
Hellfire Infusion can be good for a surprise for know-it-all wizards. The Resistance to Fire 10 is largely negligable - it can be eaily duplicated by magic items. It's nice, but not special.
Obviously the downside is that you take a Con hit every time you use an ability, but you don't have to use an ability if you don't want to. I would say a Hellfire Warlock is much less effective in a solo party because there is no cleric friend to provide them with Restoration and the like. Bring potions and a high Con score.

Hellreaver
-1 Paladin entry, Even otherwise
I am really not very impressed with this class.
It has low entry requirements, but don't let that fool you. IT'S A TRAP
It requires a large amount of Charisma to be effective, which is usually dump-stat of choice for Barbarians and Fighters, and such characters probably have to multiclass to meet the skill requirements.
Holy Fury: If you are a Paladin to start with (which fits flavourwise) you already have Immunity to Fear and your attacks are probably Good-aligned already (Bless Weapon). For other warriors, again it's not that great. It can be used unlimited times a day for as long as you want...so long as you activate it. It powers the other abilities.
Furious Strike: If you're a paladin, you have Smite Evil, which is superior. It doesn't provide great bonuses to attack or damage.
Divine Succor: It's a swift action, and a fair amount of health, but it doesn't work on Neutral characters, and Lay on Hands probably works better.
Divine Resolve: Divine Grace, anyone? Not impressed.
Divine Shield: Very not impressed.
Mettle: Actually fairly good, but not game-breaking exactly. It doesn't rely on Holy Fury having enough points.
Heroic Sacrifice: Yes, take a Con hit (as a melee warrior) to recharge something that's almost completely useless.
Call to Judgement: You need to hit the thing, which any smart fiend probably wouldn't let you do, and it costs a fair amount of Holy Fury Points. Fairly average.
Improved Divine Resolve/Divine Shield: ...Next.
Divine Retribution: Actually a fair amount of damage, but it allows a Fort save at a level where most good Fort saves are ~+18, and certaily not worth trudging through this mire to get.

Soulguard
-1
Again, you'll probably have to multiclass to get the skills needed in any respectable time frame.
You lose 1 spellcasting level at the start, but gain 9 more over the course of the class. It would need good abilities to make up for this, and it doesn't have them.
Pierce Deception: Meh, it's O.K. It does need you to sacifice a spell slot to use True Seeing. Very situational, get a magic item instead.
Divine Rebuke: Short range, short duration, Fort save allowed and it ends if the fiend is attacked. Use only to escape or to apply buffs and/or healing. Each use only affects 1 fiend, though. Not only does that limit the creatures it can be used on, but you need to sacrifice several spells to rebuke a mob.
Immunity to Charm: O.K, this is useful.
Dispel Evil: Less useful. Get it on your spell list if you want to use it.
Absolution: If you use corruption rules, it can be useful (those things can be difficult to get around). Otherwise it is rediculously situational.
Immunity to Compulsion: Useful, but a bit late. I certainly wouldn't go for 5 levels just to get this.
Purging Radiance: Not impressed at all.
Radiance Aura: See Purging Radiance.
Dimensional Anchor: Short range. All the fiend needs to do is fly away and it can Teleport.

Haarkla
2009-05-29, 08:53 AM
Eldrich knight should be down one.

The class features are sound, but the entry conditions are suboptimal (wizard 5/fighter 1, for example), and it suffers from multiple attribute dependency.

I recon an eldrich knight is inferior as a combatant/spellcaster to a cleric of the same level.

It is good as part of a gish build, with another prestige class and heavy optimisation.

Adumbration
2009-05-29, 09:06 AM
Hellreaver

I would very much like to dispute this. I think the class is much better than a base paladin, at least +1. Does the paladin gain the ability to heal up to 480 HP per encounter? Does a paladin get Mettle? A paladin does not get as many uses of Smite Evil as the Hellreaver gets to Furious strike, which more than compensates.

Seriously, the Divine Succor alone is like Fast Heal 30 that you can use an allies.

sonofzeal
2009-05-29, 09:38 AM
Eldrich knight should be down one.

The class features are sound, but the entry conditions are suboptimal (wizard 5/fighter 1, for example), and it suffers from multiple attribute dependency.

I recon an eldrich knight is inferior as a combatant/spellcaster to a cleric of the same level.

It is good as part of a gish build, with another prestige class and heavy optimisation.
EK is a low +0, I think. If you want 9th level Sor/Wiz casting and semi-decent BAB and hitpoints (for Shapechange/Polymorph pwnage), it's one of your better options without a lot of scrounging. If Spellsword is -1, I'd say EK is +0.

The difference between an EK and a Cleric of the same level is that Sor/Wiz CL 18 casting is far superior to Cleric CL 20 casting. An EK can still use Foresight + Celerity + Timestop, and can do it while chewing the Cleric's head off in Dragon form.

That said, you do lose two caster levels (cardinal sin oh noes!), and you don't get anything to help with armour. Definitely not worth it unless you're already planning on having your Wizard fight in melee via Tensor's or Polymorph or whatnot. Low +0, high -1, somewhere in there.

Frosty
2009-05-29, 01:27 PM
I give the Hellreaver +0 is campaign is not devil-centric, and +1 if the campaign is.

KazilDarkeye
2009-05-29, 02:51 PM
Well, I don't normally review PrCs, and I'm just not excited by Hellreaver. Certainly Divine Resolve and Divine Shield are subpar (and their Improved versions are awful). Maybe that blinded me to the potential of the class.

Oh, yeah, just to point out: a Paladin may not be able to heal THAT much, but at least he can aid Neutal characters. A Hellreaver can't unless he already has levels of Paladin, Cleric e.t.c.

ErrantX
2009-06-25, 09:18 PM
Has anyone looked into the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)as far as where it would Tier-in? I was considering playing on in the next game, but I was curious as to where it would come in.

Edit: I'd put it in Tier 3 due to the 6/10 caster progression, the high end abilities of this class make it very appealing despite the CL drop.

-X

NeoVid
2009-06-29, 10:28 PM
Interesting... I just noticed Master of Shrouds is listed as Down One, when my experience with it made me expect it to be Up One, since the loss of one caster level and the fact that it doesn't work well with DMM is offset by the one major ability it gives being so game-smashingly powerful.

sonofzeal
2009-06-29, 10:35 PM
Interesting... I just noticed Master of Shrouds is listed as Down One, when my experience with it made me expect it to be Up One, since the loss of one caster level and the fact that it doesn't work well with DMM is offset by the one major ability it gives being so game-smashingly powerful.
Hmm... makes sense to me. Anyone else have a comment before I change the rating?

dragoonsgone
2009-06-29, 10:48 PM
btw, thank you for this Zeal. Its a very good list.

sonofzeal
2009-06-29, 10:54 PM
btw, thank you for this Zeal. Its a very good list.
No problem, it was a good outlet.



I know I've really let it slide recently guys, but I'll get back to finishing it up at some point. Rest assured that all comments and concerns will be reviewed and incorporated (or not) at some point. No promises on time frame, but it'll happen. :smalltongue:

ErrantX
2009-06-29, 10:56 PM
I'd place the swiftblade prc that I mentioned above in up one tier. Despite the CL loss, it really is a potent and powerful class.

-X

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-29, 11:41 PM
I'd place the swiftblade prc that I mentioned above in up one tier. Despite the CL loss, it really is a potent and powerful class.

-XNo, the loss of 3 CL is just too much(9 level class). The extra actions thing makes up for it, but there are just better PrCs if you want to Gish. If you could get in with a non-caster base(SotAO Paladin or something) it's worth it, but for a straight caster, the extra actions are the only worthwhile thing, and that doesn't make up for the loss of casting.

Eldariel
2009-06-30, 06:03 AM
No, the loss of 3 CL is just too much(9 level class). The extra actions thing makes up for it, but there are just better PrCs if you want to Gish. If you could get in with a non-caster base(SotAO Paladin or something) it's worth it, but for a straight caster, the extra actions are the only worthwhile thing, and that doesn't make up for the loss of casting.

I don't know, extra actions are one of the very few things that can vindicate losing casting for a Gish. I think specifically for Gishes, Swiftblade hits the sweet spot; you may not get 9th level spells pre-epic (which sucks) if you go all the way, but you get the ability to cast Time Stop+++ in lower level slots, which sorta makes up for that. You also trivially own in an AMF due to Extraordinary Haste (along with getting a free 50% miss chance, huge speed increase and combat stat increases), and yeah, you get an extra action each turn. That just happens to be fcking awesome. You also get +Int to Initiative, which tends to kick ass, and a bunch of numeric bonuses across the board.

I'd say it's a clean +0 PrC; one of the best balanced PrCs with CL loss ever (other good ones being Malconvoker, Ruby Knight Vindicator & Ordained Champion). Also, it's a crapton of fun to play. Too bad it's from such an obscure source. Also, there's always Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 for 9th level spells (and thus the ability to cast Time Stop the oldfashioned way). As far as Gishes go, it's one of the best.

sonofzeal
2009-07-22, 11:35 AM
Note to self - "Fiend of Corruption" should be Up Two, "Fiend of Blasphemy" should be Up One, and "Fiend of Possession" should be Up Two.