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Frosty
2009-03-22, 02:16 AM
Currently I have a stealthy stabbity character whom the party goes to as the know-it-all sage. I'm not sure exactly where to take her from here on out. More Rogue levels? More Swashbuckler levels? Maybe dip into Warblade for more Int synergy? Go Swordsage some more to get better maneuvers? Right now her strategy involves getting sneak attack easily via Distracting Embers creating an insta-flanker, and Cloak of Deception allowing for insta-invisibility, and she does a good amount of damage, with her Knowledge Devotion bonus frequently getting to +4/+4. If I really need even more damage or to hit, I can always spend an Inspiration point.

What advice have you for advancing this character? The campaign is kinda high-powered.

CG Human Factotum1/Swashbuckler3/Rogue4/Swordsage1/Rogue3/Swordsage1
Init +8; Senses Spot +15; Listen +15
Languages Common, Elven, Dwarven, Inferno
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AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18; Dodge bonus +2
(+7 Armor, +6 Dex, +2 Deflection, -1 Vulnerable)
hp 123 (13 HD);
Resists
Weakness Murky-Eyed, Vulnerable
Fort +10, Ref +21, Will +10
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Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +2 Deadly Precision Collision Shortsword +20 (1d6+21+Knowledge+6d6+2d6+13 19-20/x2) [Shortsword base-1d6; Dex-7; Int-5; Str-2; +2 enhancement-2; Collision enhancement-5; Sneak Attack-6d6(base)+2d6(stance)+13(Craven)]
Full Attack +2 Deadly Precision Collision Shortsword +18/13 (1d6+21+Knowledge+6d6+2d6+13 19-20/x2) AND +2 Deadly Precision Collision Shortsword +18/13 (1d6+21+Knowledge+6d6+2d6+13 19-20/x2)
Ranged
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +10; Grp +12
Atk Options Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon fighting
Special Actions
Maneuvers and Stances Known
Swordsage (IL 7th)
Stances - Hunter’s Sense (1st), Assassin’s Stance (3rd)*
Strikes – Searing Blade* (4th), Clever Positioning (2nd), Devastating Throw (3rd)*
Boosts – Distracting Ember (1st)*, Cloak of Deception (2nd)*, Sudden Leap (1st)
Other – Shadow Jaunt (2nd)*
_________________________________________________
Abilities Str 14, Dex 21(25), Con 16(20), Int 16(20), Wis 8, Cha 8
SQ Sneak 6d6+13+2d6, Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Grace, Insightful Strike, Dodge Bonus +2, Discipline Focus (weapon focus): shortsword, Evasion, Uncanncy Dodge, Penetrating Strike, Trapfinding, Quick to act +1, Discipline focus (Weapon Focus), Swordsage AC bonus
Feats Able Learner, TWF, Weapon Finesse(b), Knowledge Devotion, Craven, Shadow Blade, Daring Outlaw, Adaptive Style, Improved TWF, Weapon Focus (Short Sword)(b)
Possessions: +3 Mithril Chain Shirt, +2 Deadly Precision Collision Shortsword x2, Amulet of Health +4, Gloves of Dexterity +4, Headband of Intelligence +4, Ring of Protection +2

sonofzeal
2009-03-22, 02:48 AM
You can't go too far wrong with Swordsage. I'd diversify out of Shadow Hand and start focusing a bit more on Tiger Claw, as I think it'll serve you well in the long run. On the other hand, you already have Daring Outlaw set up, so Swashbuckler's a solid choice as well. I suppose it depends on whether you want "spike" damage on particular attacks, or consistent damage across many attacks.

To put it a different way - do you plan on regularly staying in melee with a single enemy for more than a round? Swordsage will help you most if you stay mobile; Swashbucker might provide for better round-by-round duking though.

Alternatively, if skills are important to you, I'd try to get the Factotum's "Brains over Brawn". With your Int, that's going to be epic. Remember that it also applies to Trip (hello, Setting Sun) and to Initiative (hello, Sneak Attack).

Frosty
2009-03-22, 03:24 AM
You can't go too far wrong with Swordsage. I'd diversify out of Shadow Hand and start focusing a bit more on Tiger Claw, as I think it'll serve you well in the long run. On the other hand, you already have Daring Outlaw set up, so Swashbuckler's a solid choice as well. I suppose it depends on whether you want "spike" damage on particular attacks, or consistent damage across many attacks.

To put it a different way - do you plan on regularly staying in melee with a single enemy for more than a round? Swordsage will help you most if you stay mobile; Swashbucker might provide for better round-by-round duking though.

Alternatively, if skills are important to you, I'd try to get the Factotum's "Brains over Brawn". With your Int, that's going to be epic. Remember that it also applies to Trip (hello, Setting Sun) and to Initiative (hello, Sneak Attack).

Well, to be honest my characer sometimes *have* to stay in melee, due to the fact that she's the unofficial "tank" of the party. The rest of the party:

Kobold Bard who uses Dragonfire Inspiration to give all of us a massive Electricity damage bonus to our weapon attacks. He plays a banjo but prefers to call it his "Electric Guitar."

Catfolk (bought off LA) Scout/Ranger who uses Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot to deal good Skirmish damage to multiple enemies (and she can Skirmish enemies normally immune as well thanks to Swift Hutner and various weapon crystals)

Gray Elf Beguiler/Mindbender who...does beguiler stuff and makes our lives easier. She owns any enemy with brains. Focuses on raising her save DCs.

As you can see, I'm really the only melee-heavy type here.

sonofzeal
2009-03-22, 04:02 AM
Well, to be honest my characer sometimes *have* to stay in melee, due to the fact that she's the unofficial "tank" of the party. The rest of the party:

Kobold Bard who uses Dragonfire Inspiration to give all of us a massive Electricity damage bonus to our weapon attacks. He plays a banjo but prefers to call it his "Electric Guitar."

Catfolk (bought off LA) Scout/Ranger who uses Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot to deal good Skirmish damage to multiple enemies (and she can Skirmish enemies normally immune as well thanks to Swift Hutner and various weapon crystals)

Gray Elf Beguiler/Mindbender who...does beguiler stuff and makes our lives easier. She owns any enemy with brains. Focuses on raising her save DCs.

As you can see, I'm really the only melee-heavy type here.
It happens. I didn't mean for my post to suggest that you shouldn't be doing that; that's why I put that option in. Sometimes you're the tank, sometimes the tank can hold aggro even when you're right up there too, and sometimes you'll have temporary invisibility and other things to let you get into position. Whichever way, in those situations it's better to focus on bonus damage with many attacks, rather than powerful strike maneuvers. I'd still try to pick up Factotum 3 if I could though, as it's just such a huge boost to your out-of-combat utility (and initiative is always nice).

Draz74
2009-03-22, 12:32 PM
Alternatively, if skills are important to you, I'd try to get the Factotum's "Brains over Brawn". With your Int, that's going to be epic. Remember that it also applies to Trip (hello, Setting Sun) and to Initiative (hello, Sneak Attack).

Yes, by all means, take the next 2 Factotum levels ASAP. After that, continue in either Factotum or Swordsage.

Note that if you get Factotum up to level 5, you can use the Spell-Like Ability Heroics on yourself. "Learn any fighter feat you want for 50 minutes/day." Way too flexible!

Cedrass
2009-03-22, 12:47 PM
Catfolk (bought off LA) Scout/Ranger who uses Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot to deal good Skirmish damage to multiple enemies (and she can Skirmish enemies normally immune as well thanks to Swift Hutner and various weapon crystals)

A bit off-topic, but what is this about buying off LA ?

mikej
2009-03-22, 01:02 PM
A bit off-topic, but what is this about buying off LA ?

Variant rule located here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to reduce level adjustment.

If it was me i'll take more Swordsage levels but thats just my opinion. Tiger Claw maneuvers would be a added plus. Though now when I think about it, the earlier mentioned SLA Heroics is awfully usefull if your the primary melee char.

Frosty
2009-03-22, 02:03 PM
But why spend 4 more levels of Factotum to get one Heroics use when I can just take 2 levels of Chameleon to get effectively 2 uses of Heroics (one of which lasts all day)? With 2 levels of Chameleon I get one level 2 spell to cast, and I get a Bonus Feat that I can change every day

Woul you say our party's lack of Divine support would change my build in any way?

Zaq
2009-03-22, 02:16 PM
You don't really need a divine caster. The bard can cover most of the party-buff bases, and there's no shortage of magic items that can top off your HP (Healing Belts, Wands of Lesser Vigor, and so on). Sure, a divine caster helps, but it's far from necessary. I wouldn't change anything to compensate, no.

Keld Denar
2009-03-22, 03:17 PM
Well, if you had a Divine Caster, you could divert some of your +3 Chain Shirt into special abilities like Death Ward or similar. Even such, I'd look into getting other abilities on your armor instead of that.

Also, check out the Rogue's Vest. DMGII IIRC, but it increases your SA by another 1d6. Thats passing fair for a magic item.

Chronos
2009-03-22, 04:41 PM
Yes, by all means, take the next 2 Factotum levels ASAP.Agreed. If you're making a skillmonkey character, and Factotum is allowed, you should always, always, always take at least 3 levels of it. Factotum 5, 8, or 11 can also be good, but by that point you have to also ask what else you could get from other classes. But Brains over Brawn is just too good to possibly pass up.

Frosty
2009-03-22, 04:50 PM
Well, if you had a Divine Caster, you could divert some of your +3 Chain Shirt into special abilities like Death Ward or similar. Even such, I'd look into getting other abilities on your armor instead of that.

Also, check out the Rogue's Vest. DMGII IIRC, but it increases your SA by another 1d6. Thats passing fair for a magic item.

Convert? You mean lower the bonus to +1 and rely on Magic Vestment? Well, can't really do that right now unless we want to UMD it every day. The Rogue's vest sounds like a good idea. Do you think it'd also increase Skirmish damage?

Frosty
2009-03-22, 04:52 PM
Agreed. If you're making a skillmonkey character, and Factotum is allowed, you should always, always, always take at least 3 levels of it. Factotum 5, 8, or 11 can also be good, but by that point you have to also ask what else you could get from other classes. But Brains over Brawn is just too good to possibly pass up.

Well the real question is whether I really need to focus on making my character THE skillmonkey in the party. Remember the context here. The rest of the party here ALL have 6 to 8 + Int skills per level, and one of them is even Int-based! Bard is 6. Scout is 8. Ranger is 6. Beguiler is 6.

Samb
2009-03-22, 07:54 PM
"Invisible Blade: Wow. This one is a Factotum godsend. In 5 levels you get: +5 to AC (assuming your Int is at least 20) when unarmored, +3d6 sneak attack, and the ability to feint in combat as a free action. With Kung-Fu Genius and a Monk's Belt, you can add your Int again to AC. Spend an inspiration point in combat and that's Int x 2 plus 5 to unarmored AC . . . and that's before you start layering on Bracers of Amor, Amulets of Natural Armor, etc."

Taken from the factotum handbook
Once you have 3 lvls in Factotum, Invisible blade might be the way to go if you need to tank. As you can see the bonuses on AC are truly awesome AND it adds to sneak attack. Don't know if you have the silly preq feats, you're using a short sword? Might want to use reformation to change it to weapon focus dagger or kurki?

Frosty
2009-03-23, 01:10 AM
I can't use Kung Fu Genius becuase it's a Dragon Magazine feat, and those aren't allowed. As for Invisible blade, isn't it a Swift action to feint since the errata? Is it still worth it?

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-23, 01:43 AM
As for Invisible blade, isn't it a Swift action to feint since the errata? Is it still worth it? no after the errata Invisible Blade is not worth it.

Before I go on, I must say that is quite an allover the place build, but then again, I suppose I've done worse.

If Chameleon is available I suggest taking it because it is awesome.

I want to echo this for emphasis: Brains over Brawns is damn good, especially seeing as it is Strength and Dexterity based Checks this includes Initiative, Tripping, Grappling etc.

Samb
2009-03-23, 01:46 AM
Depends on how often you use fients really. I thought you needed the boost in AC that's all. I personally think it's a good PrC for rogues second only to assasin, but most DMs don't allow assassins. You will get an extra 1d6 out of it and some other goodies but it's too bad about no Kung fu master

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-23, 01:47 AM
At this level he can get himself a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

Samb
2009-03-23, 01:57 AM
At this level he can get himself a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

if you read the quote from the factotum handbook you would see that invisible blade was to take advantage of factotum's high INT and boost his AC to rediculous levels. He also said he wanted a semi tank, invisible blade will give him full SA progression, and full BAB to boot as well. Uncanny feint was not the main reason for IB in this build.

Nothing wrong with feint as a swift action either, most people need a move action to do it. Feint is underutilized in general.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-23, 02:04 AM
if you read the quote from the factotum handbook you would see that invisible blade was to take advantage of factotum's high INT and boost his AC to rediculous levels. He also said he wanted a semi tank, invisible blade will give him full SA progression, and full BAB to boot as well. Uncanny feint was not the main reason for IB in this build. And Concealment gives him a 50% miss chance, alternatively he can take Blink which is lower level, but also 50% miss chance (not affected by blind-fighting) because he's ethereal, with no penalty on his physical attacks. He'll still be visible in that case.

With regards to getting more AC and AB out of a prestige class, Chameleon will do a much better job of that, mainly because it gives him spell casting as one of the other benefits. Bite of the Wererat for example would quite a good 2nd level spell for this particular build.

Edit: Invisible Blade has bonus to AC with a maximum of Class Level or Int, which is 5 at the highest. And it only functions when not wearing armor.

Draz74
2009-03-23, 02:12 AM
But why spend 4 more levels of Factotum to get one Heroics use when I can just take 2 levels of Chameleon to get effectively 2 uses of Heroics (one of which lasts all day)? With 2 levels of Chameleon I get one level 2 spell to cast, and I get a Bonus Feat that I can change every day

Because 2 levels of Factotum gets you Brains over Brawn, as Chronos said. And Chameleon has prereqs. But yeah, if you meet prereqs Factotum+2 / Chameleon2 is probably better (in spite of less skill points) than Factotum4. Of course nothing stops you from doing both in another 6 levels. :smallamused:

Frosty
2009-03-23, 02:18 AM
I meet the prereqs for Chameleon already.

Is Brains over Brawn really that good? I never plan on Tripping or Bullrushing or Grappling. I guess it'd be nice on resisting those things though,and the bonus to Init will be good.

Query: Should I shoot for at least BAB +16 by level 20 so I can get that last Iterative attack?

Draz74
2009-03-23, 02:42 AM
Is Brains over Brawn really that good? I never plan on Tripping or Bullrushing or Grappling. I guess it'd be nice on resisting those things though,and the bonus to Init will be good.

Query: Should I shoot for at least BAB +16 by level 20 so I can get that last Iterative attack?

BoB doesn't work on grappling anyway. But the main thing is just the huge boost to skills.* And initiative, yeah that's big too. Not to mention those two Factotum levels don't exactly suck anyway -- Cunning Defense and an extra Inspiration point don't hurt anything.

I guess you could go Chameleon2 before Factotum+2, though.

People like to make a big deal about +16 BAB at Level 20, but really it doesn't matter unless you're planning on the campaign going epic (or maybe if you just plan on playing a lot at Level 20).

* +5 bonus to Climb, Jump, Swim, Tumble, Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Open Lock, Escape Artist, Ride, and Use Rope. That's worth, like, what, 18 not-very-good Feats?

Frosty
2009-03-23, 02:48 AM
BoB doesn't work on grappling anyway. But the main thing is just the huge boost to skills.* And initiative, yeah that's big too. Not to mention those two Factotum levels don't exactly suck anyway -- Cunning Defense and an extra Inspiration point don't hurt anything.

I guess you could go Chameleon2 before Factotum+2, though.

People like to make a big deal about +16 BAB at Level 20, but really it doesn't matter unless you're planning on the campaign going epic (or maybe if you just plan on playing a lot at Level 20).

* +5 bonus to Climb, Jump, Swim, Tumble, Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Open Lock, Escape Artist, Ride, and Use Rope. That's worth, like, what, 18 not-very-good Feats?

Well, the campaign is expected to end around level 21 or 22. What feat would you suggest with Heroics? Perhaps Martial Study :smalltongue:?