Good Swashbuckler fixes?

[ShadowFighter15]

I'm wondering if anyone knows of any good swashbuckler fixes, since the CAdv version of it seems rather underwhelming (or at least if it plays anything like the NWN 2 version (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Swashbuckler); I haven't read the PnP version in a while).

I found one on the WotC forums (here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911743)), but the guy who designed it has since given up on it.

What I liked about the above one was that it provided two different paths for the swashbuckler archetype; one that focussed on charisma and style (and could probably be quickly described as the "Jack Sparrow Approach"), while the other was focussed on intelligence (which could be roleplayed as the "Awesomeness By Analysis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomenessByAnalysis) Approach").

Are there any fixes like that here on the Playground, or elsewhere on the internet that anyone knows of?

[Leon]

While i have no problems with the class its self, the common consensus on here is that 3 lvls of Rogue and the Daring outlaw feat (in CompScoundrel) make it much better

[Thespianus]

While i have no problems with the class its self, the common consensus on here is that 3 lvls of Rogue and the Daring outlaw feat (in CompScoundrel) make it much better

Yeah, the three levels of Rogue is almost a required dip. They make a lot of difference.

I really can't imagine why they didn't give the Swashbuckler that kind of precision damage in the first place. The Int-to-damage-class feature is good, but, well, not 9D6 sneak attack good. ;)

[tsatthoggua]

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-eberron/168917-pirates-life-swashbuckler-base-class-dread-pirate-prc-3.html

Cheers.

[Draz74]

Besides Rogue4 / Swashbuckler16 with Daring Outlaw, you can make a good swashbuckler character with ...

Swashbuckler3 / Warblade17

Factotum3 / Swashbuckler3 / Warblade14

Factotum8 / Swashbuckler3 / Rogue2 / Barbarian2 / Fighter2 / Warblade3

Rogue2 / Swashbuckler3 / Assassin5 / Bladesinger10 -- the "evil elf" build

etc., etc., ad infinitum. I'm sure you could make a good psionic swashbuckler too. Or one that doesn't even have Swashbuckler levels (especially if Warblade or Swordsage is allowed).

As far as fixes go, though, it's tricky. Because you've got all the regular melee problems, which people are always trying to fix with Fighter variants ... and then you've got the additional problems of the Swashbuckler not standing up to even the Fighter's level of power.

[kjones]

I was thinking of this myself, and was wondering about the applicability of the Duelist PrC. I went to look it up... and couldn't find it anywhere. Does it even exist? Is it just a 3.0 thing? If not, does anyone know what book it's in?

[ShadowFighter15]

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-eberron/168917-pirates-life-swashbuckler-base-class-dread-pirate-prc-3.html

Cheers.

Did you mean the rework of the class on that page, or were you suggesting that thread as a whole?

At the moment, the class seems tailored to focus on the "Intelligent Swordsman" concept. Sure, you could RP them as being a very flamboyant Large Ham (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeHam), but that doesn't really work unless you have an impressive CHA score; which at the moment is only good to the swashbuckler for increasing bonuses to a few skills.

What I liked about the Swashbuckler version I linked to earlier was that it could be taken in two separate, yet focussed directions, but there was nothing stopping you from having an intelligence-based swashbuckler who was also a daring lunatic (I see common sense as falling under WIS, which no swashbuckler needs for much) and whatever the reverse would be for a charisma-based swashbuckler (can't think of how to word it; haven't had coffee yet).



I was thinking of this myself, and was wondering about the applicability of the Duelist PrC. I went to look it up... and couldn't find it anywhere. Does it even exist? Is it just a 3.0 thing? If not, does anyone know what book it's in?

I don't know what book it's in, but it must've been reworked for 3.5; it was one of the PrCs in NWN2, which was based on the 3.5 ruleset.

EDIT: I think it might be in the 3.5 DMG. According to this wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes) it is.

[Samb]

Here's what I proposed as a swashbuckler/duelist hybrid in my thread:


I really like swashbukler and deulist mainly because I'm a fencer myself, and I think it is a shame that WoTC didn't make either one of them work that well. As it is SWB is a dip class, and duelist just plain sucks. Here's my revision with consideration to sonofzeal's suggestions. Again the focus is on one on one combat.


BAB, hit dice, skills and saving throws are all the same, but they cannot use shields (this is a duelist not a gladiator).
SWB/duelist hybrid

1)Weapon finesse (feat)

2)Grace +1

3)Insightful strike

4)TWD (feat), improved reaction (+2 on initiative)

5)Dodge bonus+1 (dodge target only), precise strike +1d6

6)Duelist expertise (like combat expertise but 1:2 ratio on Dodge target only)

7)Deadly defense (feat in CS, when fighting defensively you can add 1d6 on your attacks), (no acrobatic charge)

8)Glove (pimp) slap (force Dodge target to attack only you, will save negates DC= 10+CHR bonus), unncanny dodge (no imp flanking)

9)Beat attack (knock another single handed weapon out of the way, and opponent is treated as disarmed for 1d4 turns. Reflex save negates DC= opposed strength check)

10)Precise stike +2d6, Dodge bonus +2

11)Feint as a swift action (earliest invisible blade gets this is level 10 and invisible blade's is a free action not swift, IB can also take 10 on feints). Bonus Luck feat

12)Mom/wife joke (same as glove slap but DC= 10+ 1/2 SWB lvl +CHR), Maestro duelist (you gain a bonus equal to your CHR on your attack rolls to your Dodge target; max +5)

13)Double precision (allows for off-hand to attack with precise strike) (no acrobatic skill mastery)

14)Parry-reposte (every time your Dodge target misses you, you gain an AoO, combines well with deadly defense), bonus luck feat

15)Dodge bonus +3, precise strike +3d6

16)Fleshe attack (French for flash attack; your precise strike deals and extra +2d6 on a charge)

17)Perfect parry (when your Dodge target misses you, he is flat-footed), bonus luck feat

18)Slippery mind, Blade catcher (3 time per encounter you can make a reflex save on an incoming attack to disarm your attacker with your offhand weapon)

19)(nothing saving up for the crowning ability, because its worth it)

20)Precision critical (3 times per encounter, your precise strikes counts as criticals for the purpose of most special effects; you do not multiply damage in this case, note that your attack is not treated as a natural 20). Bonus luck feat, precise strike +4d6

Bolded are my own creations.

Hope you all like the changes because this is a class I could have fun playing. Dodge is a key part of this version of SWB so it should be the first feat you pick, this is to emphasis the one-on-one aspect.

Improved flanking taken out since it is about ganging up on someone.

Luck feats to add a bit of scoundrel in 'em.

At 13 you can use TWF with precise strike and get that coveted "exponential" increase in damage if you prepared got TWF--> greater TWF by 12. Timing is a bit awkward, since before 13, TWF can't be used with precise strike, which would make all the TWF feats useless (unless you don't like using precise strike).

All the good stuff is at the end so no one accuse me of front loading! Still a good dip, but also worth it to go all the way. If my DM approves it I'd definatily go for a dry run against high level tier 2s or 1s. I forgot to put Grace progression at 11 and 20, but I was thinking of changing it to 13 and 19 instead. Precise strike and improved intiative are from duelist. Was thinking of adding something like unbelievable parry which lets you use your parry moves on a 2-handed weapon as well but that seemed way too over the top. Get a nice defending and parrying dagger as off-hand and you should be hard to hit (at least against your Dodge target).

[kjones]

Yeah, it's in the 3.5 DMG, and even the SRD. Don't know how I missed that...

Not very good tho.

[Samb]

Took a look at that thread in WotC and while it has some great ideas, I hate the "choose a path" approach. It reeks too much of WoW, if I want to make the most of both INT and CHR why shouldn't I? It would make me semi MAD but that is the drawback of having your cake and eating it. The original SWB was INT and CHR based and pretty dependant on DEX as well.

[Samb]

Took this new and improved duelist out to the areana against my DM. He made a few changes to it by taking glove slap out and putting mom joke in 8 since he felt it was extraneous, beat attack is basically improved disarm but is a swift action but only lasts for 1d4 rounds. Fleshe attack is at lvl 12 instead of. 16.

Round one: lvl 10 builds
Human with 2 flaws (murky eyed and shakey)
Feats: TWF, weapon focus (rapier), dodge, imp init, mobility, elusive target, combat reflexes
Weapons: speed parrying rapier +2, defending parry dagger +3

Me against a og swashbuckler and deulist: is this fix better than it's originals? Yes. Deulist expertise and deadly defense combined with elusive target made them hit eachother while missing me. Of course, I got AoOs that had +2d6 from precise strike and +1d6 from deadly defense on all of them. Precise strike makes me deal deal damage as if I had a huge great sword and it isn't as particular as sneak attack.
On my attack I deal 3d6 on each strike(3) but not enough to kill the SWB, I make use of elusive target's diverting defense again and kill him on his turn. Duelist dies to full attack of precise damage.

Round 2: charging fighter
Again elusive target's wins the day by completly negating PA damage. I'm guessing my DM has never had anyone use it before. Easy win with battle of attrition.

Lvl 15: new feats are lucky start, unbelievinle luck, improved TWF and greater TWF
Weapon: changed to speed rapier +4, defending parrying dagger +5
Vs. Scout: I gave up midway through since I could not catch him. If the starting positions was less it might have been different. On the rematch I got run instead of weapon focus. This worked out fine

Vs. Egoist: win init and charge him with a fleshe attack and do great damage, he does temporal accel and comes out and is has a construt out and is in the shape of a choker there is another one of him. Natually his psicrystal is morphed too. Great, he completly heals all his damage and now I have 4 oppenents to deal with. I try to win defensivily but he was able to use quickness and use disintigrate 2 in one round, his fission is also blasting me while his crystal and construct and beating me to death.
So that one didn't go well. But I don't think there was anything I could do so I declined a rematch. Goddamn nova casters.

Round 2: barbarian/ frenzied berserker. Put fought defensivily the whole time he was raging or in frenzy. Pretty easy fight

Round 3: swordsage. This was a close one since he had ways to make me flat footed that would make all my defense bonuses useless. I ended up winning because he had to refesh his moves.

Round 4: psiwarrior. I thought this would be harder but Im pretty sure I was really close to beating him straight up until he used metamorphosis. Natrually his crystal changed also both into illithid and mind blasted me and ate my brain.

Side note: metamorphosis is kind of cheesey..... I think my dm was tring to tell me something.

Next is 20 builds wonder how precise critical will stack up.