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Heliomance
2009-03-22, 01:22 PM
The basics: Level 10, Core+Completes ONLY, no psionics, arena fight, teams of 4-5. No clue who else will be on the team.

I was thinking about making a Warlock, but I know very little about the class and its capabilities, never having played one or seen one in action. Not sure whether to make a Glaivelock or focus more on ranged attacks from the sky, and not entirely sure how to go about making either of those, though I have read the relevant handbooks.

Chronos
2009-03-22, 04:58 PM
You can't make a glaivelock with core+completes only, since Eldritch Glaive is from Dragon Magic.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-22, 05:43 PM
Warlocks suffer a bit in arena matches because their big thing is not running out of things to do, and arena matches generally go to the one who can nova the biggest, unless you wish to rule that it is a 'round robin tourney' where everyone goes to their next match fresh from the previous match with no time to rest between.

You'll want Dark One's Own luck to boost up your weak Fort or Reflex save (which ever one is lower) to prevent Batman Wizard from nailing you with Save or Screwed effects. You'll also want See The Unseen to counter the Greater Invisibility Beatdown.

Since you are facing multiple opponents, Eldritch Chain may be handy to hit secondary targets with at least some damage.

Voracious Dispelling is very nasty in arena-fights where you know your opponent will be heavily buffed, because not only will it strip their buffs, but damage them in the process. This can easily shut down a ClericZilla (who will just be starting to get their DMM-Persist Divine Power combo rolling), or at least seriously nerf it, to say nothing of what it will do to other casters.

Flee The Scene is good for keeping beatsticks from locking you down and screwing you over.

Fell Flight is good for staying out of reach in the first place. Walk Unseen is good for being hard to find.

Basically, your best bet is to be flying sniper.

Heliomance
2009-03-22, 06:00 PM
Eldritch Glaive is in DM? Bother, I thought it was Complete Mage. Ho hum.

The other option I was considering is a Malconvoker. I was a flying sniper in a team arena game before - pixie throwing vials of alchemist's fire - and I wasn't that effective. Everyone ignored me, pretty much. Would a Malconvoker do better?

Eldariel
2009-03-22, 07:45 PM
Malconvoker could be decent. A Wizard/Cleric > Malconvoker just recieves Fiendish Legion on level 10 making your summons actually worthwhile and as we're talking an even level, you aren't behind in spell levels.

The big question is whether SRD is considered Core for this purpose; Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning) is the thing that makes summoning work for arena-style combats (and specifically, makes Conjurers good enough in it to pick over other options).

Picking the Enhanced Summoning-ACFs is likewise worth it as they save you feats that can better be used for other purposes, and add a bit to the dispellability of your summons.


Now, I'm not saying that you'd be the toughest guy in the ring, but with the mentioned ACFs you'd be a decent summoner. More importantly, you'd still be a Wizard and a Conjurer at that with a considerable arsenal at your disposal, including a variety of things you can summon (as long as you stick to things enabled by Infernal Legion) giving you a lot of on-the-spot wiggle room. The drawback, of course, is that with the selection of books, Immediate Action defenses are notably limited so you may still be relatively vulnerable; that said, of course, buffs can mitigate that.

You should ask if you can bring a Bound creature into the ring, because Planar Binding is a level 5 spell for you and having 12 HD Demon/Devil (say, umm, Glabrezu) at your disposal would tip the odds greatly in your favour.


So yeah, if SRD is considered Core, Malconvoker is good to go; otherwise you may want to look elsewhere as even with Rod of Rapid Spell, you'd be unable to Quicken your level 5 Summons (with a Rod of Quicken, Rod of Rapid Spell & Rapid Spell the feat, you could Quicken SMIV at level 5 slot and cast SMV as a standard action, but that's extremely costly and really more trouble than it's worth).

EDIT: Actually, a Cleric 5/Malconvoker 5 using DMM: Rapid/Quicken Spell and the Summoner-domain could work even with just Completes.

EDIT#2: Now that I think about it, Metamagic School Focus pretty much solves the Rapid Spell-problem for two feats if the ACF isn't allowed.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-22, 08:22 PM
Eldritch Glaive is in DM? Bother, I thought it was Complete Mage. Ho hum.

The other option I was considering is a Malconvoker. I was a flying sniper in a team arena game before - pixie throwing vials of alchemist's fire - and I wasn't that effective. Everyone ignored me, pretty much. Would a Malconvoker do better?

Note: Alchemists fire does 1d4, your Eldritch Blast does 5d6 at 10th level. You also can get Chain Blast to affect more critters (albeit at half damage). So if you target opponent casters, you could probably kill them in two hits, on average (their HD is d4, you are doing 5d6, so 10d6 > 10d4, but we're assuming they have a con higher than 10, so it averages out).

Heliomance
2009-03-23, 10:09 AM
Malconvoker could be decent. A Wizard/Cleric > Malconvoker just recieves Fiendish Legion on level 10 making your summons actually worthwhile and as we're talking an even level, you aren't behind in spell levels.

The big question is whether SRD is considered Core for this purpose; Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning) is the thing that makes summoning work for arena-style combats (and specifically, makes Conjurers good enough in it to pick over other options).

Picking the Enhanced Summoning-ACFs is likewise worth it as they save you feats that can better be used for other purposes, and add a bit to the dispellability of your summons.


Now, I'm not saying that you'd be the toughest guy in the ring, but with the mentioned ACFs you'd be a decent summoner. More importantly, you'd still be a Wizard and a Conjurer at that with a considerable arsenal at your disposal, including a variety of things you can summon (as long as you stick to things enabled by Infernal Legion) giving you a lot of on-the-spot wiggle room. The drawback, of course, is that with the selection of books, Immediate Action defenses are notably limited so you may still be relatively vulnerable; that said, of course, buffs can mitigate that.

You should ask if you can bring a Bound creature into the ring, because Planar Binding is a level 5 spell for you and having 12 HD Demon/Devil (say, umm, Glabrezu) at your disposal would tip the odds greatly in your favour.


So yeah, if SRD is considered Core, Malconvoker is good to go; otherwise you may want to look elsewhere as even with Rod of Rapid Spell, you'd be unable to Quicken your level 5 Summons (with a Rod of Quicken, Rod of Rapid Spell & Rapid Spell the feat, you could Quicken SMIV at level 5 slot and cast SMV as a standard action, but that's extremely costly and really more trouble than it's worth).

EDIT: Actually, a Cleric 5/Malconvoker 5 using DMM: Rapid/Quicken Spell and the Summoner-domain could work even with just Completes.

EDIT#2: Now that I think about it, Metamagic School Focus pretty much solves the Rapid Spell-problem for two feats if the ACF isn't allowed.

Okay, SRD is in, and so is PHBII. Think I will go with the Malconvoker idea.

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 01:46 PM
Imbued Summoning from PHBII then (use with Metamagic School Focus or Arcane Thesis); great for your action economy. Add to that Cloudy Conjuration [CM] and you'll be golden.

Heliomance
2009-03-23, 02:13 PM
Which schools should I ban? And should I go Conjurer or Focused Conjurer? Obviously Evocaation goes bye-bye, but which should I ban for the other? I'd normally say Enchantment, but could the buffs in it be useful on my minions?

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 03:13 PM
I'd say, drop Enchantment and focus on Transmutation-based buffs instead. All the best ones are Trans/Illusion anyways; Enchantment only really has Angriness and Heroinism - minor buffs at best compared to Haste, Invisibility, Displacement, Fly, etc. Even Mage Armor tends to serve fine with the minions (as they tend to lack armor).

Focused Specialist could be good; dropping Necromancy wouldn't hurt you bad (the offensive slots are stymied by the fact that you don't focus on it, nor have access to level 6 slots meaning you'd be stuck with standard Enervations for example; use Orbs for spot removal) and Abjuration is likewise considerable (although on arena, you'll probably want to retain the ability to cast Dispel Magic and Magic Circle Against X).

Heliomance
2009-03-24, 12:11 PM
Okay, tentative build:

Human Focused Conjurer 5 (Rapid Summoning, Enhanced Summoning ACF)/Malconvoker 5
STR 8 DEX 12 CON 13 INT 20 WIS 8 CHA 16 (35 point buy, two stat bumps into INT)

Feats
1st: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Human bonus: Cloudy Conjuration
Wizard bonus: Augment Summoning
3rd: Imbued Summoning
6th: Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration)
Malconvoker bonus: Skill Focus (Bluff)
9th: ?

I'm not sure whether to take Improved Initiative or Toughness for the last one - Toughness is houseruled to be +3HP per HD.

Skills:
Bluff 13 ranks
Concentration 13 ranks
Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, Planes) 13 ranks each
Spellcraft 13 ranks
Speak Language 4 ranks
2 Skill Tricks

Languages known: Common, Draconic, Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Terran, Celestial, Abyssal, Infernal

Skill tricks: False Theurgy, Swift Concentration

Gear: Circlet of Persuasion, Ring of Mighty Summons, 11500 gold left to spend

jcsw
2009-03-24, 12:46 PM
Warning: Cloudy Conjuration gives your opponents concealment against your monsters.

Eldariel
2009-03-24, 12:51 PM
You could probably use Craft-feats to effectively increase your WPL. Also, I'd cut Cha down to 14 for Con & Dex improvements (the extra point to Str, I suppose). Hmm, actually, Middle-Aged would probably get you better stats overall:

7 Str
14 Dex (8 points)
14 Con (8 points)
20 Int (13 points, 2 level-ups)
10 Wis (1 point)
14 Cha (5 points)

with further cuts available if you're willing to go with under 14 Dex or Con.

Ask if you could use Obtain Familiar-feat to "lose" Familiar twice (to get both, Rapid Summoning & Abrupt Jaunt); getting Abrupt Jaunt would really help you, removing any real need to worry about your defenses.


Also, I'd consider Improved Initiative over Toughness since your primary defense is not getting hit. Although that new Toughness is insane; you'd have HP like a 20 Con character with 14 Con and that would amount to a total of 76 HP, a respectable amount. Still, as a summoner, your summons act as a form of battlefield control in addition to dealing damage so going first is just awesome.

As for items, worship Ehlonna and get Ehlonna's Brooch [CC Pg. 134] - it specifically states that an arcanist can gain the benefits just as well, and for 350gp, it gives your summons an extra HP/HD. Effectively +2 Con.

You could also visit the Worldmeet Glade [CM Pg. 157], although it's over your present WPL (at 18000gp), which would give your summons +2 to almost all rolls, and +2 HP/level.

Heliomance
2009-03-24, 02:32 PM
That's rather a lot of stinky stinky cheese there. Starting with trying to lose a familiar twice - that's just not cricket. Also, I kinda can't really see a guy dedicated to exploiting summoned creatures revering a deity of nature. Just doesn't seem to fit.

Also, I doubt flaws will be allowed, so I don't have room for that many feats. And using crafting feats, aside from the fact that I don't have the feat spare, would drop me down to level 9. I don't have the cash for the Worldmeet Glade though.

Eldariel
2009-03-24, 03:23 PM
That's rather a lot of stinky stinky cheese there. Starting with trying to lose a familiar twice - that's just not cricket. Also, I kinda can't really see a guy dedicated to exploiting summoned creatures revering a deity of nature. Just doesn't seem to fit.

Yeah, they were all separate options you could pursue (requiring asking DM whether it'd work though). As for worshipping Ehlonna, I don't really see why not; your deity isn't really connected to what you do if you aren't a Cleric-type, so might as well pick up advantages where they occur. That's how the items are supposed to be used after all. But meh.

Heliomance
2009-03-24, 03:36 PM
Hmm, suppose I could go for the brooch. It's an arena game, after all - it's not exactly going to be high RP.

Heliomance
2009-03-26, 02:22 PM
Fun with Polymorph time!

I hear that one of the best spells for making your summons gnarlier is to slap Polymorph on them. What are some fun 7HD forms, and 6HD Outsider forms?

*HD limits due to the fact that those are the highest HD creatures I can summon, assuming there's not enough water anywhere for me to summon a shark*

Eldariel
2009-03-26, 02:39 PM
You can actually use Alter Self to go with Imbued Summoning. The thing is, the best forms are in the auxillary Monster Manuals & Fiend Folio, books not on your list. This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246) may be of interest to you. Also, this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=758751).

Heliomance
2009-03-26, 03:09 PM
Might be worth mentioning we're playing without errata, incidentally.