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nevadadave
2009-03-22, 05:36 PM
Hello all,
I hope this is the right forum here to post this. I apologize if it is not. I just found the site recently and now have cause to post.

I am a novice DM in a 3.5 group with a question for the group.
I have a player with a druid who loves to utilize the entangle spell for just about any encounter. I need some suggestions as to how to challenge her use of the spell.
We are primarily in an outdoor setting grasslands and light forests at the moment.
I do not want to have the party roll up on a barren rock and have a "random encounter" that would seem a little reactive. I am having issues figuring out ways to challenge the party with out it looking like engineering the defeat of the spell.
The group size is 7 and all around 4-5th level. Any clever ideas would be very appreciated.
Thanks

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-22, 05:48 PM
Hello all,
I hope this is the right forum here to post this. I apologize if it is not. I just found the site recently and now have cause to post.

I am a novice DM in a 3.5 group with a question for the group.
I have a player with a druid who loves to utilize the entangle spell for just about any encounter. I need some suggestions as to how to challenge her use of the spell.
We are primarily in an outdoor setting grasslands and light forests at the moment.
I do not want to have the party roll up on a barren rock and have a "random encounter" that would seem a little reactive. I am having issues figuring out ways to challenge the party with out it looking like engineering the defeat of the spell.
The group size is 7 and all around 4-5th level. Any clever ideas would be very appreciated.
Thanks

Well, first off, Friendly Fire Isn't. Clearly define where the spell is landing, and see if he hit any party members with it. Also, any party member who enters the entangled area will also get entangled. Make sure they are aware of this.

Second, big large critters can just make a DC 20 Strength check to move through it, no longer being hampered.

Also, being entangled doesn't prevent you from moving. Opponent casters who become entangled simply stay put, don't try to get out of it, and blast the party to smithereens.

Flickerdart
2009-03-22, 05:48 PM
Enemies that fly. Enemies that are incorporeal. Enemies that have Freedom of Movement. Enemies that use fire and resist it. All of these defeat entangle soundly.

Talya
2009-03-22, 05:52 PM
Well, the spell's not much of an "I win" button to begin with. A CR6 or CR7 encounter (appropriate for your group size) might have many ways to deal with that, not the least of which is to simply ignore it. Your melees still have to get up close to hit it, It can still move (at half speed) and attack (at -2). The spell is a good spell, it's designed to make an encounter easier, but it's not that devastating in general. It's what a level 1 spell should be.

If you really want an encounter where entangle is less useful, you can always use a creature with enough strength to simply win the opposed strength check, or use something that can fly.

Cedrass
2009-03-22, 06:05 PM
An other Druid with Dispel Magic. Fight magic with magic :smallwink:

Aaaannn, every other option stated before me :smallsmile:

Myrmex
2009-03-22, 06:48 PM
Fire. Use fire.

nevadadave
2009-03-22, 06:49 PM
Wow Thank you guys for the fast responses. I gather that this is somewhat of a simple thing for most of you and I appreciate your help.
The party in question has been enveloped in a series of skirmishes with a notiriously large clan of Orcs. Pretty simple stuff. so far. I have altered the orc hunters (looking for the party members) to bear war mages in their midsts but I never even thought of providing a druid type in place or in addition to the war mage.
I like the strength and flight ideas. Orc barbarians instead of warriors maybe with the gifts of bulls strength from the war mage or something like that ought to help.
Another idea would be to mount the orcs on mammoths or elephants, maybe just the spell caster to keep things balanced. I need to think about how to incoporate flight with these guys too.
Thanks again

Fire - hmmmmm I like that.
The Orcs having dealt with the group before are aware of their tactics and have prepared a nifty little counter. BURRRRRNNNNNN EEEMM BOYZZZZ

jmbrown
2009-03-22, 07:08 PM
Against spell casters, archers are a DM's best friend. If they're going up against orc barbarians, I'm certain they'll have some longbowmen (if they don't they're a pretty stupid army). Archers are traditionally used as suppressors so have the orcs fire from afar (200+ feet) to draw the party into an a bottleneck where melee fighters close in. Tight quarters are another area caster weapon and he'll feel pressured to cast entangle when the fighting is happening in his face.

nevadadave
2009-03-22, 07:48 PM
Against spell casters, archers are a DM's best friend. If they're going up against orc barbarians, I'm certain they'll have some longbowmen (if they don't they're a pretty stupid army). Archers are traditionally used as suppressors so have the orcs fire from afar (200+ feet) to draw the party into an a bottleneck where melee fighters close in. Tight quarters are another area caster weapon and he'll feel pressured to cast entangle when the fighting is happening in his face.

Yes excellent suggestion I have them in the ranks already. Your tactics of using them at longer ranges I will try. This is shaping things up nicely.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-22, 08:27 PM
Yes excellent suggestion I have them in the ranks already. Your tactics of using them at longer ranges I will try. This is shaping things up nicely.

If your warmages can cast Bull's Strength, they can also cast Resist Energy. So, a few vials of Alchemist's fire (or just some torches lit) + Resist Energy (fire) = no more Entangle without hurting the NPC's.

Also, there is nothing that says the archers cannot shoot while in the Entangle. In fact, it could very well keep the skirmishers from hurting them, because they have to get into the Entangle to melee with them, which hampers the PC's speed.

nevadadave
2009-03-27, 10:42 PM
If your warmages can cast Bull's Strength, they can also cast Resist Energy. So, a few vials of Alchemist's fire (or just some torches lit) + Resist Energy (fire) = no more Entangle without hurting the NPC's.

Also, there is nothing that says the archers cannot shoot while in the Entangle. In fact, it could very well keep the skirmishers from hurting them, because they have to get into the Entangle to melee with them, which hampers the PC's speed.

Thanks for the suggestion Shneekey

Aquillion
2009-03-27, 10:54 PM
Wow Thank you guys for the fast responses. I gather that this is somewhat of a simple thing for most of you and I appreciate your help.Well, Entangle is one of the strongest first-level spells, don't get them wrong... at least partially because most 'typical' low-level encounters aren't going to fall into those special cases that let monsters avoid it (and at higher levels it can be reserved for a win-button for the subset of enemies that it still works on, since unlike Sleep it doesn't just stop working entirely.) But it's still just a first level spell.

Also, make sure you read the Entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) condition summary carefully. An entangled creature suffers various nasty penalties, but you can just send in opponents strong enough to endure them. Spell-like abilities that don't require an attack roll aren't affected, say, so an enemy who attacks primarily using those will be fine (and may even be protected by the entanglement, since PC meleeiers will have a harder time approaching or attacking.)

Archers work, as noted, but the -2 to attack rolls plus the -4 dex hurts them a great deal, so you'll probably have to send in fairly high-CR archers for it to work. The better way to use them, though, is to have the enemy archers or spellcasters move away from the PCs, so the entangled zone is protecting them from melee-PCs, animal companions, and so on.

Also, dividing up the enemies and having them attack from many directions at once makes it harder for the caster to get them all in the area of effect.

Yahzi
2009-03-28, 03:50 PM
I gather that this is somewhat of a simple thing for most of you and I appreciate your help.
No, it is not simple. The Entangle spell is absurdly broken for a 1st level spell. My party is 8th level, with access to the spell only once a day (through a cleric domain), and it still auto-defeats any amount of mooks.

I've resorted to fire (when their enemies know their reputation, they tend to burn all the vegetation off the battle field first) and retreat (the mooks spread out; a few get entangled, while the rest retreat and wait for the spell to end or come from a different direction). Also: indoors. All of these solutions have their drawbacks, though.

I can't use Entangle on the PCs, though: they maxed their Escape Artist checks early on.

ericgrau
2009-03-29, 01:55 PM
Well, first off, Friendly Fire Isn't. Clearly define where the spell is landing, and see if he hit any party members with it. Also, any party member who enters the entangled area will also get entangled. Make sure they are aware of this.

Second, big large critters can just make a DC 20 Strength check to move through it, no longer being hampered.

Also, being entangled doesn't prevent you from moving. Opponent casters who become entangled simply stay put, don't try to get out of it, and blast the party to smithereens.

A caster must make a concentration check DC 15 + spell level to cast a spell while entangled, or it is wasted. Entangle is a 1st level spell, so enemy monsters are unlikely to be that high of a level. That's what most posts seem to be ignoring: level. Likewise a full round action for a DC 20 strength check or escape artist check isn't easy either that early.

Instead, remember that entangle isn't the end of the world. Baddies can still act normally, they just can't move. Having some ranged attackers or even melee attackers with backup ranged weapons (should be all humanoids) will let a lot of baddies fight semi-normally, albeit at a -4 AB. The rest can keep retrying their escape attempts; they only need to succeed once. You can also spread out attackers to limit the usefulness of entangle's AoE. Ambushers should be hiding on both sides and taking shots. The druid can't target both without hitting his party as well.

Another simple low level anti-caster tactic is to ready ranged attacks to disrupt spells. The caster must make a concentration check DC 10 + damage + spell level or lose the spell.

In short: use bows, learn rules.

tyckspoon
2009-03-29, 11:22 PM
Instead, remember that entangle isn't the end of the world. Baddies can still act normally, they just can't move. Having some ranged attackers or even melee attackers with backup ranged weapons (should be all humanoids) will let a lot of baddies fight semi-normally, albeit at a -4 AB. The rest can keep retrying their escape attempts; they only need to succeed once. You can also spread out attackers to limit the usefulness of entangle's AoE. Ambushers should be hiding on both sides and taking shots. The druid can't target both without hitting his party as well.


Just once? It's a full-round action to move at only half-speed. If you're dealing with standard humanoids, they're going to get just 15 feet moved. It's a 40 foot radius spell; admittedly not all of the opponents will be at the center, but the guy who is will have to get three of those moves just to get out.. and then on your turn the spell repeats and re-grabs anybody who broke free or made the first save, so he'll probably have to make the DC 20 check at least twice as well. Armored and/or otherwise slow beings have it worse, unusually fast critters have it a bit better.