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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 01:03 AM
Some of the player races have convenient explanations when it comes to breeding. Any race breeds with their own kind, they get another of their own kind. Any race breeds with a tiefling, they get another tiefling. Devas don't breed at all, instead reincarnating in a different location in a full adult body without knowing the full details of their previous life. A human and an elf make a half-elf. A human and an orc make a half-orc. The problem is, that only covers a few of the combinations.

What happens when a human breeds with a dwarf? Or a gnome with a halfling? What happens when a half-elf breeds with an elf? If a few of the races are genetically compatible with others, why don't we see half-dwarves? Half-orc-elves? Eladrinlings? Apart from cultural mores, it doesn't seem like there's anything preventing any member of a player race from breeding outside its own race. So why aren't there more varieties of crossbreeds, besides the two we do have?

Furthermore, can these crossbreeds breed true? Are half-elves and half-orcs sterile, like mules? Or can they produce offspring? If so, what are there offspring like if they don't breed with their own? What if an elf and half-elf have a kid? The child would be three quarters elven then, wouldn't they?

Also, what about skin tone? I know humans are supposed to have the same range of hues as normal people do, but what about the other races. Are there black dwarves and elves? Or is every non-human a pale shade of pink?

It boggles the mind to see how little biology homework WOTC seems to have done in designing these races!

Colmarr
2009-03-23, 01:10 AM
Also, what about skin tone? I know humans are supposed to have the same range of hues as normal people do, but what about the other races. Are there black dwarves and elves? Or is every non-human a pale shade of pink?

Unless I'm mistaken, both elves and dwarves are addressed in the PHB. If not, then both are certainly dealt with in the FR player's guide.

Specifically, there are dark skinned dwarves (Gold Dwarves in FR), but not (IIRC) elves.

Asbestos
2009-03-23, 01:13 AM
Furthermore, can these crossbreeds breed true? Are half-elves and half-orcs sterile, like mules? Or can they produce offspring? If so, what are there offspring like if they don't breed with their own? What if an elf and half-elf have a kid? The child would be three quarters elven then, wouldn't they?


They most certainly breed true. Check out the half-elf racial backgrounds in the PHB2 and the stuff for the half-orcs as well. Also, apparently when a half-orc and an orc have a kid, its a half-orc. My guess is that half-elves are the same.


Oh, and on skin tones, read the racial descriptions! Colmar is right in that they are defined, they all are. Heck, even Eladrin can be dark skinned.

magellan
2009-03-23, 01:23 AM
It boggles the mind to see how little biology homework WOTC seems to have done in designing these races!

Lets not forget that WOTC didn't design them but inherited them from gygax & arneson, who ripped them off of tolkien who ripped them off of norse mythology :P

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-23, 01:30 AM
You're complaining about biology in a game where Dragons could mate with pretty much anything? :smalltongue:

Colmarr
2009-03-23, 01:32 AM
Oh, and on skin tones, read the racial descriptions! Colmar is right in that they are defined, they all are. Heck, even Eladrin can be dark skinned.

I knew I remembered reading it, but wasn't sure whether it was in Races & Classes or the PHB. Thanks.

Kris Strife
2009-03-23, 01:37 AM
You're complaining about biology in a game where Dragons could mate with pretty much anything? :smalltongue:

If its alive, a dragon can hit it... Including plants according to the 3.5 Draconomicon...

I want to see someone make a half dragon potted plant PC now...

TheOOB
2009-03-23, 01:37 AM
Barring sterile breeds, there are three out comes when two races breed, no child, a mixed breed, and one of the parent breeds.

Aside from elves, eladrin, orcs, and tieflings, none of the pair are delt with in the main books. I would probably say halfling's and humans just make short humans(and halfling and elves make short half-elves), and most other combinations do no produce viable offspring.

Nightson
2009-03-23, 01:52 AM
Making D&D biology make sense is a pretty crazy feat but it's certainly possible to try.

Halflings, Gnomes, Dwarves, Goliaths and Dragonborn are all fully distinct species, they can only breed with members of their race.

Devas don't breed.

Tieflings, being mostly human, can still mate with humans to produce children, presumably the infernal genetic change has rendered them unable to mate with the other species that normal humans can mate with. They breed true, always producing tieflings.

Shifters function the same way, they can breed with other shifters or with humans and breed true. The two shifter strains are genetically incompatible.

Elves, Eladrin, Humans and Orcs (And drow for good measure). Oh my, here's the real tangle. What's the origin of humans, eladrin and orcs?

First question, are half-orcs a result of natural breeding between humans and orcs or is it result of divine intervention? Divine intervention makes things pretty simple, they're a created species that can breed with both humans and orcs. So we'll go with the more complicated natural breeding option.

Eladrin are the progenitor race for elves and drow at the minimum, so let's posit that they're the progenitor race of humans and orcs as well. The timeline would go something like this.

-Eladrin split, drow form, elves form
-Drow become separate species from Eladrin
-Elves become separate species from Eladrin
-Elves give rise to Orcs
-Elves give rise to Humans
-Genetic drift renders Orcs and Elves unable to mate
-Humans still capable of mating with both Elves and Orcs (hopefully not at the same time, that might be awkward)

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are the only crossbreeds. They could be sterile, it's possible, but assuming they're not.

There's three possibilities here:
One, they breed true, simple, Half-Elf offspring are always Half-Elfs.

Two, the follow some sort of very basic Mendelian genetics. Two Half-Elves have a 50% at another Half-Elf, a 25% for a Human and a 25% for an Elf. Half-Elf with a pure race would give 50% Half-Elf, 50% pure. This one seems like a lot of fun, so it's the one I'd pick.

Thirdly, the traits are graduated, a half-elf that mates with a human is more elfy then a normal human but less elfy then a normal half-elf. With he complete lack of mechanical support this one seems best avoided.

And then only one question left! Can Half-Elves mate with Half-Orcs? I would lean towards the answer being almost. Although they can get pregnant, they don't produce viable offspring. But such a neat plot hook in that almost part.

TimeWizard
2009-03-23, 03:37 AM
If its alive, a dragon can hit it... Including plants according to the 3.5 Draconomicon...

I want to see someone make a half dragon potted plant PC now...

I think it should be called Audrey.

Sebastian
2009-03-23, 03:45 AM
What is this "genetic" you are talking about? It is another word for magic?

Dhavaer
2009-03-23, 03:56 AM
Also, what about skin tone? I know humans are supposed to have the same range of hues as normal people do, but what about the other races. Are there black dwarves and elves? Or is every non-human a pale shade of pink?

In 3.x, dwarves were mostly dark-mid brown, gnomes mid-light brown, halflings tan and elves pale. Half-orcs were grey. This changed for different subraces, of course.

In 4e, dragonborn are some shade of red/gold/brown, dwarves are as human with the added options of grey and red, eladrin are as humans with a greater tendancy towards pale shades, elves are as humans with a greater tendancy towards tans and browns, half-elves and halflings are as humans and tieflings are as humans with the added option of red.

It's not that hard to find, just check the race description.

Totally Guy
2009-03-23, 05:11 AM
I had a black Elf NPC recently that I used. I ended up up saying "Dark Elf" several times when I meant plain old skin tone which confused the group.

Then there was the time when we encountered Drow and Duegar working together. The party came up with a plan for the black Cleric character to pretend to have captured the rest of the party, then the Cleric could claim to be a Dark Human in order to gain the trust of the Dark Elf and Dark Dwarf... We reasoned that we were merely exploiting inherent racism within the system rather than being racist ourselves.:smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2009-03-23, 06:25 AM
What happens when a human breeds with a dwarf? Or a gnome with a halfling? What happens when a half-elf breeds with an elf? If a few of the races are genetically compatible with others, why don't we see half-dwarves? Half-orc-elves? Eladrinlings?

Unless you want a really bizarre campaign with half-everythings, I'd suggest one of the following:

(1) crossing any two races (other than human/elf or human/orc) does not produce offspring, ever. This has a few implications for the campaign world... note how in many fantasy novels, characters have sex all the time and yet contraception is never addressed? This would solve that issue.

(2) crossing any two races does produce some kind of offspring, but it is (almost always) malformed or stillborn. This has different implications, particularly in the direction of "don't do that, ever!" and social stigmas.

(3) a crossbreed takes after either parent; thus a human/dwarf crossbreed is either a full human or a full dwarf, possibly with appearance leaning a bit to the other parent.

(4) human/eladrin and human/drow offspring are half-elves. After all, eladrin and drow are a kind of elf, yes?

(5) two common options: "real" crossbreeding means that human x half-elf gives either human or half-elf, and half-elf x half-elf gives 50% chance of half-elf, and 25% chance each of pure human or pure elf. This is true according to high-school level genetics, although of course real genetics Don't Work That Way.

(5b) the alternative is "pureblood" crossbreeding, which is to say that human x half-elf always gives human, half-elf x elf always gives elf, and half-elf x half-elf always gives half-elf. That is to say, the children can only be less elven than their parents, not more. This assumes the Our Elves Are Better trope.

Eldan
2009-03-23, 09:45 AM
One of my explanations was that, due to some kind of cosmic prank, human genetics were all wonky. Basically, some god decided that, to balance near-immortal elves, super-stealthy halflings, master-crafter dwarves and high-tech gnomes, humans had to be able to adapt to everything.
So, only a few thousand years later, you have half-human everythings. Tieflings, Aasimar, Genasi and other planetouched from every plane humans ever went, along with half-elves, half-orcs and a few other, homebrewed half-races.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 12:53 PM
What is this "genetic" you are talking about? It is another word for magic?

NO! NYO! The existence of magic in the game does not constitute throwing the basic laws of biology out the window! That is a copout! There needs to be versimilitude within the gameworld or else willing suspension of disbelief gets thrown out the window!

I'm playing a half-elf paladin who is going to get a lot of female admirers from different races, and I want to know what his kids would be like.

I also play a mutated human who's dating a dwarf chick. They want to have kids. What are those kids going to be like (aside from navy-blue skinned with black wings?)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 12:57 PM
You're complaining about biology in a game where Dragons could mate with pretty much anything? :smalltongue:

I have yet to see half-dragons in 4e, so I don't know.

hamishspence
2009-03-23, 01:00 PM
Draconic Creature template in Draconomicon- can represent a half-dragon or a magically modified creature. Has wings.

Morty
2009-03-23, 01:11 PM
NO! NYO! The existence of magic in the game does not constitute throwing the basic laws of biology out the window! That is a copout! There needs to be versimilitude within the gameworld or else willing suspension of disbelief gets thrown out the window!

I'm playing a half-elf paladin who is going to get a lot of female admirers from different races, and I want to know what his kids would be like.

I also play a mutated human who's dating a dwarf chick. They want to have kids. What are those kids going to be like (aside from navy-blue skinned with black wings?)

As much as I agree that magic isn't a convenient excuse for stuff not making sense, there's little point in dwelling on it. Since there are no rules for it, just go with what feels most sensibe to you. In my setting, I listed sentient humanoid species into "groups" that can interbreed because they're "close enough". It shouldn't be too hard to make something like this up in D&D.

Alleine
2009-03-23, 01:14 PM
There needs to be versimilitude within the gameworld or else willing suspension of disbelief gets thrown out the window!

I agree with this to a point. The world needs to seem realistic, but do you really think the game designers are going to flesh out every last little thing down to genetics? They're trying to sell a product, not recreate a whole new world.

In response to your first post, there is a 3.5 race that pretty much covers this sort of thing. You could probably convert it to 4E if you wanted. They're called mongrelfolk and are basically a mishmash of all the major humanoid races. They're in races of destiny if you want to look at them.

Little_Rudo
2009-03-23, 01:35 PM
I've always assumed the human's ability to breed with anything is an expression of their adaptability; humans in D&D (and fantasy in general) tend to be portrayed as the most adaptive of the races, in part to explain why they're a dominant (and often the dominant) race in a world of longer-lived races. Therefore, human's tend to be able to breed with anything that has even remotely humanoid biology. Sure, it doesn't explain a lot genetically, but I don't need lengthy discussions on the biological ramifications of half-elves to enjoy my games. :)

Also, this really isn't a 4E issue, or a WotC issue. It just happens to be one of the more recent occurrences of this, which is very, very common in fantasy in general.

Draz74
2009-03-23, 02:28 PM
NO! NYO! The existence of magic in the game does not constitute throwing the basic laws of biology out the window! That is a copout! There needs to be versimilitude within the gameworld or else willing suspension of disbelief gets thrown out the window!

Hmmm. That's entirely setting-specific, IMHO.

Someone (The Alexandrian?) recently pointed out to me that it's entirely feasible, in a fantasy world, for mice and rats and maggots to be spontaneously generated by stored food, just like people in real life thought was true until the late 1700s or 1800s (Pasteur?).

You can go crazier than that. Maybe Aristotle's laws of physics are actually right in some fantasy worlds. Rocks fall because they "like" being in their "natural" state of being close to the earth, not because of any weird concept like "gravity." And if you roll them, they stop because said "natural" state involves standing still, not because any weird "inertia" concept is eventually overridden by "energy loss to friction or collisions."

Science is full enough of uncertainties in the real world; why try to mesh it with other worlds too? :smallwink:

ColdSepp
2009-03-23, 02:35 PM
Hmmm. That's entirely setting-specific, IMHO.

Someone (The Alexandrian?) recently pointed out to me that it's entirely feasible, in a fantasy world, for mice and rats and maggots to be spontaneously generated by stored food, just like people in real life thought was true until the late 1700s or 1800s (Pasteur?).

You can go crazier than that. Maybe Aristotle's laws of physics are actually right in some fantasy worlds. Rocks fall because they "like" being in their "natural" state of being close to the earth, not because of any weird concept like "gravity." And if you roll them, they stop because said "natural" state involves standing still, not because any weird "inertia" concept is eventually overridden by "energy loss to friction or collisions."

Science is full enough of uncertainties in the real world; why try to mesh it with other worlds too? :smallwink:

That sounds really neat, I have to say.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 02:43 PM
Hmmm. That's entirely setting-specific, IMHO.

Someone (The Alexandrian?) recently pointed out to me that it's entirely feasible, in a fantasy world, for mice and rats and maggots to be spontaneously generated by stored food, just like people in real life thought was true until the late 1700s or 1800s (Pasteur?).

You can go crazier than that. Maybe Aristotle's laws of physics are actually right in some fantasy worlds. Rocks fall because they "like" being in their "natural" state of being close to the earth, not because of any weird concept like "gravity." And if you roll them, they stop because said "natural" state involves standing still, not because any weird "inertia" concept is eventually overridden by "energy loss to friction or collisions."

Science is full enough of uncertainties in the real world; why try to mesh it with other worlds too? :smallwink:
Because otherwise I find it hard to maintain my willing suspension of disbelief.

Fostire
2009-03-23, 03:02 PM
Halflings, Gnomes, Dwarves, Goliaths and Dragonborn are all fully distinct species, they can only breed with members of their race.

In the second edition setting "Dark Sun" there existed a half dwarf half human race called Muls which, as their name suggests, were sterile. They were usually bred to be used as slaves in gladiatorial arenas.

Draz74
2009-03-23, 03:14 PM
Because otherwise I find it hard to maintain my willing suspension of disbelief.

Odd. I'm a physicist; I'm not used to other people having science more integral to their worldview than it is to mine. Au contraire, usually I drive people nuts by describing everyday things in physics terms. But dropping much of that in fantasy doesn't bother me.

FoE
2009-03-23, 03:16 PM
It makes sense that tieflings can breed with humans. After all, they used to be humans. It's only that dang infernal legacy that keeps them from producing halfbreeds.

Zousha, open up the Monster Manual. By our standards, virtually everything in there can't exist. Not just shouldn't, but can't. I mean, big flying lizards that spit fire? Pretty well the definition of im-f***ing-possible.

Myself, I would rather not see the Player's Handbook clogged up with a bunch of info on which races can breed with which and what kind of children they would produce.

There are some questions your DM has to answer. This is one of them.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 03:24 PM
Odd. I'm a physicist; I'm not used to other people having science more integral to their worldview than it is to mine. Au contraire, usually I drive people nuts by describing everyday things in physics terms. But dropping much of that in fantasy doesn't bother me.

I'm an English major, and according to everything I've read about fantasy, if you don't make sure your world makes sense, it's sloppy writing and not publishable. A rule I read in a book on writing fantasy is to ONLY HAVE ONE KIND OF MAGIC. You can have people who shoot fireballs from their fingers or you can have people who sold their souls to demons to become a new race, but DON'T HAVE BOTH IN THE SAME STORY! That ruins a reader's willing suspension of disbelief, and may cause them to disregard the entire work as implausible. Just because there's magic doesn't mean the laws of the real world no longer apply!

Saintjebus
2009-03-23, 03:29 PM
That ruins a reader's willing suspension of disbelief, and may cause them to disregard the entire work as implausible. Just because there's magic doesn't mean the laws of the real world no longer apply!


Because otherwise I find it hard to maintain my willing suspension of disbelief.

Wouldn't that be you own choice?*willing* willing suspension of disbelief is the choice to suspend disbelief. If you choose to be unwilling for certain subjects, i.e., genetics, that is your perogative. After that, you can make up any reason at all for genetics to work, but the final ruling over whether the justification is "sufficient" is up to you. You are choosing what is "ok" to suspend disbelief over.

Also, the fact that there is magic does mean that the laws of the real world no longer apply. It's the definition of magic.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-23, 03:42 PM
Also, the fact that there is magic does mean that the laws of the real world no longer apply. It's the definition of magic.

The point is that there is a difference between worlds with other laws that are nevertheless thought out (and not necessarily explained in advance), and worlds with no laws other than the haphazardness of "whatever is convenient at the moment".

This is, essentially, the difference between a good fantasy novel, and the average story on fanfiction.net.

hamishspence
2009-03-23, 03:51 PM
I like the notion of keeping at least some form of evolution in- the Elder gods created life, but it evolved its own way, and later, the modern gods shaped it.

a human legend in Races of Destiny holds that the first race was humans, and the original template was broken. The dwarf, elf, halfling gods tried to recreate it from memory, but made it short, stout, slender, etc.

Having a "cave man" type creature which each of the gods experimented on to create the various humanoid subraces, would be sort of cool- and common ancestry would explain why orcs, elves, humans, etc can cross breed.

Alleine
2009-03-23, 04:55 PM
A rule I read in a book on writing fantasy is to ONLY HAVE ONE KIND OF MAGIC. You can have people who shoot fireballs from their fingers or you can have people who sold their souls to demons to become a new race, but DON'T HAVE BOTH IN THE SAME STORY!

Could you elaborate on this? Because when I look at D&D I see a ridiculous amount of different types of magic. In fact it has exactly what you just said. Some people can shoot fireballs and some sold their souls to a become different. There's that and a whole lot more. It sounds to me like it is literally impossible for you to suspend your disbelief.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 05:08 PM
Could you elaborate on this? Because when I look at D&D I see a ridiculous amount of different types of magic. In fact it has exactly what you just said. Some people can shoot fireballs and some sold their souls to a become different. There's that and a whole lot more. It sounds to me like it is literally impossible for you to suspend your disbelief.

Okay, a different example. You can have a story with a wizard in it who can summon demons from beneath the sea. You can have a story with a ship that travels through space faster than the speed of light. You cannot have a story with a wizard in it who can summon demons from beneath the sea AND a ship that travels through space faster than the speed of light. That's trying to explain two different types of implausible things at the same time, which would distract from the plot all for the sake of being cool.

I'm trying to see D&D as MORE than just a game. I want to be able to discuss D&D on the same level as classical literature or advanced biology. I want to be able to talk about D&D in an academic sense. If it's just cheap entertainment that has no intellectual value whatsoever, then there's no way I can justify spending hundreds of dollars on sourcebooks that would have been better spent on buying something like the complete works of Vladimir Nabokov or perhaps Tolkien's History of Middle-Earth.

I want to be able to say that D&D has not rotted my brain and made me impatient and bored with the writings that I study in college!

Kurald Galain
2009-03-23, 05:11 PM
Could you elaborate on this? Because when I look at D&D I see a ridiculous amount of different types of magic.

While the books exist, I've never heard of any campaign anywhere that included arcane magic, divine magic, psionics, incarnum, truenaming, shadowcasting, warlock invocations, and vestiges all at the same time. As you say, that would be ridiculous.

Good writing is about quality, not quantity.

hamishspence
2009-03-23, 05:18 PM
Going by Player's Guide to Eberron, and Forge of War, Eberron can be a bit like this- though neither book makes use of Tome of Magic.

Quincunx
2009-03-23, 05:36 PM
. . .I'm trying to see D&D as MORE than just a game. I want to be able to discuss D&D on the same level as classical literature or advanced biology. I want to be able to talk about D&D in an academic sense. . . .

Then, for the love of biology, when you're trying to inflate your personal beliefs into a natural law*, develop some arguments other that MORBO SAYS IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! Discussion simply isn't possible when one party doesn't know how to support its position. The saving grace of the internet, or many other discussion groups**, will be that enough people can support their positions well enough to exchange views, and maybe even modify them.

*or theory :P
**or classes

As for the topic, applying current scientific laws to the D&D universe, the humanoid races are so variant in size that cross-bred infants, in the few genetically compatible pairings, are never born alive aside from human/elf hybrids. Mismatch of metabolisms and ill-defined cellular failures (what we know as Rh factor incompatibility) kill most crossbreeds in the womb. Applying magic-muddled science, all infants are of the mother's race due to an overpowering female chromosome, with crossbreeds all being born male since the powerful mother's reproductive system is hostile to X sperm of the wrong species. Applying tropes, Rule 34.5 says that babies will never sully your personal flavor of porn unless reproduction is your fetish.

Draz74
2009-03-23, 05:47 PM
I'm an English major, and according to everything I've read about fantasy, if you don't make sure your world makes sense, it's sloppy writing and not publishable. A rule I read in a book on writing fantasy is to ONLY HAVE ONE KIND OF MAGIC. You can have people who shoot fireballs from their fingers or you can have people who sold their souls to demons to become a new race, but DON'T HAVE BOTH IN THE SAME STORY! That ruins a reader's willing suspension of disbelief, and may cause them to disregard the entire work as implausible. Just because there's magic doesn't mean the laws of the real world no longer apply!

Yeah, I was an English minor, focusing on creative writing, and I don't buy that. Of course you have to strike a balance (as KG said above, I can't imagine a world with arcane/divine/psionics/incarnum/vestiges/shadowcasting/truenaming/etc. possibly making any sense). But on the other hand, look at Brandon Sanderson's books (new but quite popular, made the bestseller top 25 last year). Multiple magic systems (and very detailed, well-thought-out ones) in each of his three settings so far.

YMMV. But to me, I think it actually strains verisimilitude more to pretend modern laws of science and fantasy co-existing, than to pretend fantasy and medievally-accepted-science-based-on-superstition co-existing. :smallcool:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 06:08 PM
Yeah, I was an English minor, focusing on creative writing, and I don't buy that. Of course you have to strike a balance (as KG said above, I can't imagine a world with arcane/divine/psionics/incarnum/vestiges/shadowcasting/truenaming/etc. possibly making any sense). But on the other hand, look at Brandon Sanderson's books (new but quite popular, made the bestseller top 25 last year). Multiple magic systems (and very detailed, well-thought-out ones) in each of his three settings so far.

YMMV. But to me, I think it actually strains verisimilitude more to pretend modern laws of science and fantasy co-existing, than to pretend fantasy and medievally-accepted-science-based-on-superstition co-existing. :smallcool:

What it is is trying to use MAGIC!!! to distract from plot or character development, like trying to sell a car because it has cupholders or sattellite radio, instead of reliability or gas mileage. I've never heard of Brandon Sanderson before.

The existence of magic does not negate the law of gravity.

Quincunx
2009-03-23, 06:24 PM
Magic could supersede the law of gravity. In a world where magic must be channeled to be effective, this would only be in effect during durations of spells such as Fly. In a world soaked with ambient magic, the law of gravity might not be true, and no one would ever know because magic still bound objects to their expected behavior.

Please notice that I am using the conditionals "could" and "might" instead of the imperative "must". You should do the same with your arguments. An incorrect conditional statement is mistaken; an incorrect imperative statement is wrong, and wrong sentiments held against evidence are offensive in the eyes of many. (Now can someone who took the courses in college/university tell us whether this distinction would be taught in philosophy, in rhetoric, or elsewhere? Zousha's got access to the higher education right now and a textbook for splitting such hairs would be handy.)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 06:29 PM
It seems I've forgotten everything I learned in my Argumentative Writing course last semester.

I talk in absolutes, I don't do any research to support my points, I just post when the idea hits me, thinking I've made an insightful discovery that really only shows just how ignorant I am and I'm wasting my entire life on these forums where I don't have any friends and I'm not getting any exercise!

I SUCK! :smallfrown:

ColdSepp
2009-03-23, 06:46 PM
D&D Core books are to provide guidelines for your world, and rules to run the game. Beyond that, it is up the DM and Players to define how things work in the world they choose to play in. Including what races can viably reproduce with what other races.

And, don't try to mix science and DnD, unless you also what to scientifically explain what the correct wingspan a dragon would need to stay aloft, or how Teleportation works.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 06:56 PM
But if the game can't apply to real life, then what value does it have? Why should I shell out hundreds of dollars on something that I use just for mundane entertainment with people I only see once a week and barely know on a personal level? As I said, I could probably buy dozens more books with far more intellectual value than D&D, but I choose to buy more and more D&D books. And I don't buy books with more intellectual value because I consider them long, boring and depressing when compared to D&D books. What kind of English major am I if I've let something so banal become more important to me than the great classics of literature?!

ColdSepp
2009-03-23, 07:18 PM
But if the game can't apply to real life, then what value does it have? Why should I shell out hundreds of dollars on something that I use just for mundane entertainment with people I only see once a week and barely know on a personal level?

It's a GAME. It's meant to be an escape from Real Life, a chance to kick back with your friends and have fun. The value is dervived from the pleasure you get in playing it.



As I said, I could probably buy dozens more books with far more intellectual value than D&D, but I choose to buy more and more D&D books. And I don't buy books with more intellectual value because I consider them long, boring and depressing when compared to D&D books. What kind of English major am I if I've let something so banal become more important to me than the great classics of literature?!

One that needs to get his priorities straight? One that might wish to make sure he wants to be an English major? Seriously, you need to relax, take a deep breath, and remember that it's a game!

That said, games are meant to be more enjoyable then work or education. There whole point is to provide the entertainment people crave, and provide enough of it that they sell.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 07:32 PM
I think I enjoy playing D&D. I certainly have fun when playing the game. But when I sit in class, or spend time with my family or read Limyaael's fantasy rants, I wonder why the hell I'm spending time playing a game riddled with cliches, that begs borrows and steals from everything else out there with not a whit of original thought, and why I like it so much, when I could be doing something society deems more constructive. My brother plays his musical instruments in his spare time because he wants to be a music therapist. I can't make a career out of playing D&D. I won't have time to play when I actually graduate from college. I don't want to be that unwashed, foul-smelling, emotionally immature parasite who hides in his mother's basement and never contributes anything meaningful to society. But then why do I have so much fun while playing the game?

KnightDisciple
2009-03-23, 07:52 PM
Two things:
1.)Do you really think you'll be so utterly busy when you're in the professional world that you won't be able to ever game? Until I was put on a night/weekend shift, I still managed to game every other weekend. Sure, it wasn't as often as at college. But it's doable, if you can just sit down with the other people and plan it out. No job makes you work that much, that you never have down time.
2.)I'm really getting tired of this either/or of either "completely independent member of society" and "unwashed, foul-smelling, emotionally immature parasite who hides in his mother's basement and never contributes anything meaningful to society". Yes, some people still live at home after college. With some of us, it's because we're trying to live on a tight budget, not because we're dysfunctional.
Also: breath. Calm down. Breath. Calm down. Seriously, ZO, you're stressing me out over here. :smallwink:

Xuincherguixe
2009-03-23, 07:54 PM
Uh, it seems to me that the discussion of the interactions of magic and physics is a non sequitur.

Maybe the earth is flat, and the sun is an angry yelling dog, but the fact that there are half elves implies that the world does in fact have genetics. Though not necessarily are they the same as ours.

It's not that a world won't have Science, but that the Science is going to be different.

As to why no Half Dwarves, or Quaterlings, or Half Dwarf/Half Halflings? Because not a lot of thought has been put into things.

This isn't a case of willfully ignoring science because it harms fantasy, it's just not thinking about things very well.

My understanding is that in Slayers D20, races are basically templates. And so a part human, troll, golem is possible character.


As to the traditional player races. Let's face it, they're all humans. Admittedly, some of them mutant humans. How Shadowrun handles this, is that everything is a human subspecies. (It also doesn't have half races. One can only be one race. A troll and elf have an equal opportunity to have troll or elf children)

I don't know how 4th edition handles races. But, the lack of Half Dwarves, or Elf/Gnome combinations is problematic.

NEO|Phyte
2009-03-23, 07:55 PM
But then why do I have so much fun while playing the game?

Because for all its faults, it's a fun game.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 08:15 PM
Two things:
1.)Do you really think you'll be so utterly busy when you're in the professional world that you won't be able to ever game? Until I was put on a night/weekend shift, I still managed to game every other weekend. Sure, it wasn't as often as at college. But it's doable, if you can just sit down with the other people and plan it out. No job makes you work that much, that you never have down time.
My mom works two jobs to pay for my college stuff, my brother's college stuff, college stuff for my sister next year and college stuff for my other brother the year after that, as well as for the bills, groceries, and any sort of entertainment me and my siblings want, which is a constant drain. I'm always buying D&D books, video games and CDs, my brother is always buying CDs, clothes and swords, my sister is always buying clothes and bath stuff and my other brother is always buying CDs, drawing supplies and currently he's been begging for a second pet (he already is taking care of a ball python.) She never has time to relax or have fun.

2.)I'm really getting tired of this either/or of either "completely independent member of society" and "unwashed, foul-smelling, emotionally immature parasite who hides in his mother's basement and never contributes anything meaningful to society". Yes, some people still live at home after college. With some of us, it's because we're trying to live on a tight budget, not because we're dysfunctional.
I know. My mother's said she'd be more than willing to let me live at home after college. I just have to graduate, so we don't have to worry about being in debt forever, and help out around the house, like I do when I'm home anyway.

Also: breath. Calm down. Breath. Calm down. Seriously, ZO, you're stressing me out over here. :smallwink:
I get this a lot but I never seem to be able to.:smallfrown:

KnightDisciple
2009-03-23, 08:44 PM
Well, it sounds like she's approaching outlier status. Of course, the group I game with is basically all young singles.
Then again, working two jobs, all by itself, eats a lot of time up. Working a single, 40-50 hour a week job would leave more time for recreation.
Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, but your mom sounds like an atypical case. My parents are both certainly busy, but they still have time to entertain guests every couple of weeks, or go to a sports event, or even sit down for a few hours and relax.
Assuming you don't end up having to hold up the same cost levels your mother does, with what are presumably two relatively low-paying jobs (again, no offense, but it's an offhand guess), you ought to have fun time.
By no means am I guaranteeing it, but don't assume you will never ever have free/fun time again.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 09:00 PM
My mother isn't single though. My dad works too. He works as a tech support specialist for the local school district. My mother is an occupational therapist for the same school district, and her second job is a private practice that she does on the side. The private practice pays more than her regular job. She's not home much of the time during the week these days. I mean, she never really has fun on her own. Every time she's having fun, it's when everyone else in the family is there, going shopping for clothes for next school year, or going to the Science Museum or something. Several summers ago, we were driving around the Twin Cities looking for the Peanuts statues erected throughout the area so we could take pictures by them. Plus, she volunteers as the head coach for the local Special Olympics swim team. Many of the athletes are her students as well. She works so hard for the rest of us, and all she asks in return is that I at least listen to her advice, do well in school and be a good boy, and I can't even manage that sometimes because I'm lazy and selfish.:smallfrown:

Lappy9000
2009-03-23, 09:19 PM
My mother isn't single though. My dad works too. He works as a tech support specialist for the local school district. My mother is an occupational therapist for the same school district, and her second job is a private practice that she does on the side. The private practice pays more than her regular job. She's not home much of the time during the week these days. I mean, she never really has fun on her own. Every time she's having fun, it's when everyone else in the family is there, going shopping for clothes for next school year, or going to the Science Museum or something. Several summers ago, we were driving around the Twin Cities looking for the Peanuts statues erected throughout the area so we could take pictures by them. Plus, she volunteers as the head coach for the local Special Olympics swim team. Many of the athletes are her students as well. She works so hard for the rest of us, and all she asks in return is that I at least listen to her advice, do well in school and be a good boy, and I can't even manage that sometimes because I'm lazy and selfish.:smallfrown:So? She has fun with others. Isn't D&D the same thing? I imagine if you end up having 4 kids and two jobs, you'll make time for time for an online Play-By-Play or Stand-Alone games instead of volunteering at the Special Olympics swim team. The only people who don't have any fun are dead or comatose :smallwink:

That's the thing about things people love; they make time for them :smallcool:

Also, while this may be helpful, the thread has thoroughly derailed. In response, I must state the following:
If half-elves = mules, then elves = jackasses.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 09:23 PM
If half-elves = mules, then elves = jackasses.
Heehee! That's pretty funny! :smallsmile:

Jayabalard
2009-03-23, 09:39 PM
NO! NYO! The existence of magic in the game does not constitute throwing the basic laws of biology out the window! That is a copout! There needs to be versimilitude within the gameworld or else willing suspension of disbelief gets thrown out the window!Certainly, but verisimilitude doesn't require that the basic laws of biology in our world are observed, even in passing. Throughout history there have been dozens of explanations of how conception inheritance and birth works, and there's no real reason to go with our world's current day's mythology (ie, genetics) over any other mythology.

Keep in mind that that's coming from someone who is much more of a hard core sci-fi enthusiast than a fantasy enthusiast.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-03-23, 09:41 PM
Some of the player races have convenient explanations when it comes to breeding. Any race breeds with their own kind, they get another of their own kind. Any race breeds with a tiefling, they get another tiefling. Devas don't breed at all, instead reincarnating in a different location in a full adult body without knowing the full details of their previous life. A human and an elf make a half-elf. A human and an orc make a half-orc. The problem is, that only covers a few of the combinations.

What happens when a human breeds with a dwarf? Or a gnome with a halfling? What happens when a half-elf breeds with an elf? If a few of the races are genetically compatible with others, why don't we see half-dwarves? Half-orc-elves? Eladrinlings? Apart from cultural mores, it doesn't seem like there's anything preventing any member of a player race from breeding outside its own race. So why aren't there more varieties of crossbreeds, besides the two we do have?

Furthermore, can these crossbreeds breed true? Are half-elves and half-orcs sterile, like mules? Or can they produce offspring? If so, what are there offspring like if they don't breed with their own? What if an elf and half-elf have a kid? The child would be three quarters elven then, wouldn't they?

Also, what about skin tone? I know humans are supposed to have the same range of hues as normal people do, but what about the other races. Are there black dwarves and elves? Or is every non-human a pale shade of pink?

It boggles the mind to see how little biology homework WOTC seems to have done in designing these races!

Magic. nothing to see here, move along

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 09:41 PM
I suppose that's true...I've made a real ass of myself in this thread, haven't I? :smallsigh:

Nightson
2009-03-23, 10:10 PM
In the second edition setting "Dark Sun" there existed a half dwarf half human race called Muls which, as their name suggests, were sterile. They were usually bred to be used as slaves in gladiatorial arenas.

Clearly they have some messed up genetics on Arthas.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-23, 10:19 PM
Tieflings, being mostly human, can still mate with humans to produce children, presumably the infernal genetic change has rendered them unable to mate with the other species that normal humans can mate with. They breed true, always producing tieflings.


Wait, in 4.0 tieflings aren't part demon: they cursed humanoids/humans. It isn't genetics but magical curse that makes the kids weird looking.
Magic is stronger than genes I guess.

Devils_Advocate
2009-03-23, 10:32 PM
1) So, let me get this straight: Presented with a world where humanoid embodiments of "elements" like fire and ice can walk around and do stuff, it hurts your suspension of disbelief to imagine that this world doesn't follow our world's laws of physics?

There is absolutely no reason why an interesting, internally consistent fictional world with lots of surface similarities to our own has to follow the same fundamental natural laws. Frankly, the idea that one could follow them only in some cases strikes me as just absurd. Conceptually, the ultimate laws of nature don't determine what's allowable, they determine what happens. There's no basis and no room for things to happen outside of them. Like, by definition.

And a world with typical magic plus real-world physics... That's like a series of instructions being given partly in machine code and partly in prose. Implementation problems aside, it's not something I would expect to exist in the first place. I guess that someone might write something like that for the novelty of it or something, but I fully expect instructions of pure machine code or pure prose to be far more common!

I wish that I could give you a good, solid example of an excellent work of fiction that specifically has none of the atomic-scale interactions of our universe. I probably could if I knew more SciFi and Fantasy. As it is, I can only think of things that vaguely fit. Unicorn Jelly? Parts of that are definitely hard to take seriously. (An important protagonist gains superintelligence in a contrived The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes fashion, for starters. You might think that alternate laws of nature could allow this to happen plausibly, and theoretically maybe they could, but that's not how it goes down. It's instead an "it's magic" handwave at best, sadly.) One Over Zero? Way too metafictional; lacks sufficient surface similarity to Earth. I think that there are various science fiction stories with simulated universes, but the frame of our own universe doing the simulating disqualifies those as straight examples.

Tales of MU, maybe? There are occasional pop culture jokes, but if they keep you from taking the story seriously, then you're very picky. I mean, they all make sense in the context of the story, they're not just weird non sequiturs. And the author emphatically rejects the whole "like the real world... plus so many exceptions that there are more holes than cheese" model. Although if you go and google this, I feel obligated to warn you that she's really not kidding about the explicit sexual content. I mean, I wouldn't say that it's frequent, as a total percentage of the story, just... yikes. ... It's not too frequent.

But anyway, I see no reason that such a story can't exist.

2) It may be that I'm completely off the mark here, but implicit in some of your comments seems to be the notion that being sophisticated is better than having fun.

My analysis of that position: SCREW THAT.

What gives anything meaning, or value, or whatever you think it is that's so great? What is ultimately worth pursuing as an end in itself? What is the highest good, if not entertainment? Why, other than liking something, would you value it, or want to value it? I think that there are perhaps some good answers to that, but also some bad ones.

You must contemplate these things, for they are big sophisticated philosophical questions.

3) It sounds like your mother may genuinely find it easy and enjoyable to help other people. If so, I envy her.

I wish I could offer you some advice on achieving a level of productivity with which you are not dissatisfied, but I have none. I'm sorta consumed by sloth myself. The big problem with that, as you're probably aware, is that any solution that requires a lot of effort is right out. It's a chicken and egg problem, as it were: a vicious non-cycle of inactivity!

I really should start taking a walk every day. I just know that I'd have more energy if I just got a little more exercise. That's easy enough that I may actually start doing it soon. Here's hopin'.

Valentyne
2009-03-23, 10:33 PM
First off, I assume real world physics to be true in fantasy worlds - right up until magic says "stuff it". But until I know magic is involved I assume real world logic will work.

Second of all, species work on a continuum. Think of a line representing the genetic development of a species throughout time. It is really a matter of subjective interpretation as to when we decide to divide that line up and say that they are different species. It must be realized that the line can be divided up different ways. The limit to reproduction identifying different species is not as clear cut as we are taught in school.

Mules are sterile? Yes, for the most part. But some rare few are not. Horses and donkeys are clearly different species. But they were not also so. And there no one point that will ever be identified that we can point to and say, "here they became different species."

Nightson
2009-03-23, 10:59 PM
Wait, in 4.0 tieflings aren't part demon: they cursed humanoids/humans. It isn't genetics but magical curse that makes the kids weird looking.
Magic is stronger than genes I guess.

I don't read anything in the Tiefling racial description to say that it isn't a genetic change that was originally caused by magic.

THAC0
2009-03-23, 11:02 PM
My mother isn't single though. My dad works too. He works as a tech support specialist for the local school district. My mother is an occupational therapist for the same school district, and her second job is a private practice that she does on the side. The private practice pays more than her regular job. She's not home much of the time during the week these days. I mean, she never really has fun on her own. Every time she's having fun, it's when everyone else in the family is there, going shopping for clothes for next school year, or going to the Science Museum or something. Several summers ago, we were driving around the Twin Cities looking for the Peanuts statues erected throughout the area so we could take pictures by them. Plus, she volunteers as the head coach for the local Special Olympics swim team. Many of the athletes are her students as well. She works so hard for the rest of us, and all she asks in return is that I at least listen to her advice, do well in school and be a good boy, and I can't even manage that sometimes because I'm lazy and selfish.:smallfrown:

Life's different after you start a family.

I go into work two hours early every day. I usually stay an hour late. I still manage to keep the house relatively neat, take care of my cat, spend quality time with my husband (when he's home), go out with friends occasionally, cook, maintain my musical hobbies, and game once a week.

If/when I have a kid, I expect that to change. Your mother has multiple kids. You don't (I assume). You can find time to do what needs to be done. :smallsmile:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-23, 11:33 PM
I guess that's true. I still shouldn't be using these forums as some kind of therapist. :smallsigh:

The Glyphstone
2009-03-24, 01:10 AM
I guess that's true. I still shouldn't be using these forums as some kind of therapist. :smallsigh:

Just don't pay us and you're good.


Hmmm...D&D as therapy? There's got to be money made here somewhere...:smallconfused:

Kris Strife
2009-03-24, 05:00 AM
Just don't pay us and you're good.


Hmmm...D&D as therapy? There's got to be money made here somewhere...:smallconfused:

DM: Roll a d20 to determine what you see in this ink blot.

Quincunx
2009-03-24, 05:05 AM
Argumentative Writing? Sounds that that would've taught a more thorough use of particular words and made my notes on usage redundant to you.

This isn't a discussion yet, but it's moving in that direction.

Applying magic-muddled discredited science (Draz74 was brilliant for cross-pollinating the idea in this conversation), the "missing ingredient" for spontaneous generation in the sealed-flask experiment was not air, but positive magic. Boiling the broth nullified the magic, you see. Expanded to a scientific theory, the good practice of science hastens the death of magic, an idea which many authors have seized upon with splendid effect, especially in the time of the Industrial Revolution and the slow spread of electricity. The children whose race does not match their mother's were touched with positive magic in the womb (perhaps magic sparks off of sexual contact?) and spontaneously generated the features of a new race. . .and this world hasn't yet figured out that fathers add anything to the genetic makeup of a child.

Start with one wrong idea, shelve all protestations against it, and treat it as truth. The philosophy built upon it quickly goes askew but is internally consistent, and a D&D world is much less punishing when it's askew than a worldview dealing with reality. D&D is safe, and why should the designers have done their 'biology homework' and deprived us of a place to fool around with the axioms of cross-breeds? These discussions are good practice to root out questionable trains of thought and light intellectual fun.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-24, 08:27 AM
I suppose I need to actually have some willing suspension of disbelief if I expect to blabber about it.

I believe, Quincunx, that you present a very strong point. I wasn't willing to listen to your ideas and the other ideas presented by the previous posters in my emotional state.

While the existence of magic does not mean that the law of gravity doesn't exist in the D&D world, that shouldn't mean that by extrapolation the laws of genetics should apply as well. I mean, it IS magic after all.

Draz74
2009-03-24, 01:00 PM
Applying magic-muddled discredited science (Draz74 was brilliant for cross-pollinating the idea in this conversation), the "missing ingredient" for spontaneous generation in the sealed-flask experiment was not air, but positive magic.
[snip]

Start with one wrong idea, shelve all protestations against it, and treat it as truth. The philosophy built upon it quickly goes askew but is internally consistent, and a D&D world is much less punishing when it's askew than a worldview dealing with reality. D&D is safe, and why should the designers have done their 'biology homework' and deprived us of a place to fool around with the axioms of cross-breeds? These discussions are good practice to root out questionable trains of thought and light intellectual fun.

Quincunx -- thanks for reiterating my argument eloquently enough to get ZO to take it seriously. :smallwink:

Beyond this, though, I was trying to say -- even without magic, fantastic worlds don't have to follow the same laws of science that the real universe follows. They have to have laws of science, yes, but those don't have to be similar to ours. (If you really wanted to be careful about internal scientific consistency, you'd have to change all the laws of science from the most fundamental up, which would be a huge and difficult work of imagination, but I don't think D&D interacts with physics enough for this to be necessary.)

Outmoded scientific worldviews are a great source of inspiration for fictional scientific principles. But if you're more creative than me, you could come up with your own fictional scientific principles and make them work too.

Fantasy is all about assuming away limits that exist in the real world, and seeing what happens without them. Take advantage of it. :smallbiggrin:

@ZO: You really should check out Sanderson (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/welcome/). You haven't heard of him because his first published book was in 2005. But he writes high-quality stuff, good plot and character development, not shallow flashy pulp fantasy. Heck, he's an English/Creative Writing professor himself, so he better value some depth in his literature! But yeah, this was kind of off-topic; my mentioning him was mostly just a way of saying "don't be so quick to speak in absolutes" after your unilateral statement about magic systems.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-24, 01:33 PM
Quincunx -- thanks for reiterating my argument eloquently enough to get ZO to take it seriously. :smallwink:

Beyond this, though, I was trying to say -- even without magic, fantastic worlds don't have to follow the same laws of science that the real universe follows. They have to have laws of science, yes, but those don't have to be similar to ours. (If you really wanted to be careful about internal scientific consistency, you'd have to change all the laws of science from the most fundamental up, which would be a huge and difficult work of imagination, but I don't think D&D interacts with physics enough for this to be necessary.)

Outmoded scientific worldviews are a great source of inspiration for fictional scientific principles. But if you're more creative than me, you could come up with your own fictional scientific principles and make them work too.

Fantasy is all about assuming away limits that exist in the real world, and seeing what happens without them. Take advantage of it. :smallbiggrin:

@ZO: You really should check out Sanderson (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/welcome/). You haven't heard of him because his first published book was in 2005. But he writes high-quality stuff, good plot and character development, not shallow flashy pulp fantasy. Heck, he's an English/Creative Writing professor himself, so he better value some depth in his literature! But yeah, this was kind of off-topic; my mentioning him was mostly just a way of saying "don't be so quick to speak in absolutes" after your unilateral statement about magic systems.
Sometimes its hard for me NOT to take something seriously Draz. Honestly it was more a matter of me not thinking straight when I read your post. You're right, as is Quincunx. Trying to reconcile modern scientific theory with D&D magic is a classic case of thinking too hard.

I'll have to take a gander at this Sanderson when I have the time. I have so many books on my "to read" list now I'm beginning to wonder if I'll finish it before I'm dead! :smallwink:

Dervag
2009-03-24, 01:50 PM
Zousha, take a deep breath.
______

Now, I'd like to make a point. It is in fact a common rule in fiction to restrict yourself to a small number of different kinds of 'fantastic' elements: one or at most two magic systems, a small integer number of nonhuman intelligent species, and so on.

But there's a reason for that which doesn't apply in D&D. Most books don't even make a pretense of being the whole story of the world. At most, they are the story of a small number of people in the world doing a small number of (possibly important) things. The law of conservation of detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) kicks in. I can only present you with so many details in the book and keep it tightly plotted. If I throw hordes of characters or six different magic systems or several dozen intelligent species at readers, they'll get confused.
_____

Whereas in D&D, the provided content is supposed to be a world worth of details that you will take apart. You then build your own game out of whichever pieces you find interesting. To get away with that, they have to provide you with a lot more content and a lot more detail, because most of it will never be used and you need enough for a good story afterwards.

Therefore, there is more detail than any one person can easily understand, so there will always be unanswered questions about how different bits of the setting interact.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-24, 01:53 PM
Kind of like how Drizzt novels have nothing to do with events in Thay, and yet both narratives play important parts in the Forgotten Realms setting as a whole?

Darth Stabber
2009-03-24, 02:19 PM
This is the continuum that i used in 3.5, and I believe that it works in 4e for the most part (just call eladrin an elf variant and at least the continuum works)

Mathematical Elf - human - orc continuum

Elf = 1
Half elf = .5
Human = 0
Half orc = -.5
Orc = -1

When 2 members of the continuum breed the offspring are of the average. In the event that the average is not a half or whole number, round to the nearest whole number. Elf + Orc = (1+-1)/2 = 0 = Human. Elf + Half orc -> (1+ -.5)/2 = .25 = human.

Variant Elves (drow ect.), count as PHB elves for puposes of breeding outside of their subspecies. When a variant elf and a Half elf breed the result is a child of the variant race. When two different types of elves mate the result is that of the mother's type.


Now to add the really complicated stuff

Half-dragon/celestial/fiend breed true with others of the Half same things, and breed as member of there base race with regards to the continuum Races. Half dragon + dragon pairings will result in another Half dragon of the same base race. Any non dragon blood prevents a true dragon. In the case of different dragon colors involved the result is of the mother's type, except when one of the parents is a true dragon, at which point it is still half dragon but of the true dragons color.
Half dragon human + half Dragon human = Half dragon human. Half celestial human + Half Dragon human = Human. Half Dragon Elf + Half Dragon human = Half dragon half elf (yes I know that sounds silly, but the result is mechanically a half elf with the half dragon template). Half Blue Dragon Human(mom) + Half Copper Dragon human(dad) = Half Blue Dragon Human. Half Blue Dragon Human(mom) + Gold Dragon = Half Gold Dragon Human

Planetouched(including teiflings) can breed with humans halfelves and halforcs, they are incompatible with the extremes. Their children are invariably of the parent planetouched species. In the event of two different planetouched breeding the result will be that of the mother's type. Teifling father + human mother = Teifling. Aasimar mother + Air Genesai Father = Aasimar. Half Dragon Aasimar + Halfdragon Human = Half dragon Aasimar
Half dragon Aasimar(father) + Half fiend teifling(mother) = teifling.

In pairings involving some combination of true dragons, Celestials, and Fiends, the base race is that of the mother with the template of the father. when these offspring breed as though they did not have their father's template, unless their mate has a similar one. Blue dragon mama + balor father = Half fiend blue dragon. Gold dragon dad + solar mom = Halfdragon solar. Half Dragon Solar + human = Half Celestial Human. Half Blue Dragon Solar(dad) + Half Fiend Black dragon (mom) = Half Celestial Black Dragon. Half Black Dragon Balor (dad) + Half Black Dragon Astral Deva (mom) = Half Dragon Half Fiend Astral Deva (I realize this makes no sense but it is mechanics only).

Dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and other Non continuum, non planetouched Races may breed with Dragons, Fiends and celestials and follow those rules, but otherwise they cannot breed outside of race, but might have a good time trying.

I know that the last one is a bit of a hand wave away of many possible racial interactions, but I wanted to do this with out having to create contrived homebrew races just to verify my model. Besides I needed a Catch all clause.

A not so simple but I believe perfectly reasonable methodology to explain what happens when different species get between the sheets. There have been may hours and sleepless nights pondering these issues, and these rules solve it for me.

Thoughts or Criticisms?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-24, 05:26 PM
Kind of confusing...

Eldan
2009-03-24, 06:29 PM
Well, you wanted a genetic explanation, I can make one based on the above...

Let's assume there are, in the beginning, elves and orcs. Both Elf and Orc are variants of the same species, or several species, which are able to interbreed. (Tolkien!)

Now, it seems several genes are involved in making elfs and orcs (it's probably quantitative), and a being which is either heterozygous on all of them, given mendelian characters or an intermediate given quantitative traits will come out as a human. However, there are intermediates with more or less elven or orcish genes, which are generally refered to as half-elves or half-orcs. If we assume a large variety of genes, explaining the large differences in build and life history, both humans and the half-variants would actually be not the exact same variant, but only arbitrary points on an entire scale of elvishness vs. orkishness.


There! Pseudo-genetic!

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-24, 06:42 PM
That works too.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-24, 09:35 PM
A friend of mine found this 3rd party info on crossbreeds for 3.5...I wonder if it'd be possible to convert any to 4e?

http://grandwiki.wikidot.com/cghc

Darth Stabber
2009-03-25, 08:32 AM
My continuum is based on a few things that i have read (both D&D and tolkien). The base assumption is that the only two human/demihuman races in core are half elf and half orc. Then based on several comparisons between orc and elf I arrived at the above theory (which does not follow genetics that closely, hey I'm a Math guy not a Bio guy). Here are a few of the characteristic comparisons that lead the the creation of the continuum: 1: Elves are long lived/Orcs are short lived/humans fall in the middle(though still short lived), Elves prefer to resolve things through intellect(favored class wizard)/Orcs would rather just hit things with a stick(favored class barbarian)/Humans lean either way(favored class any), And Elves are of a slight but adroit build/Orcs are of a large powerful build/Humans fall in the gap of being average. In most cases it can be seen that orcs and elves while not opposite, fall on either side of human as soon as the comparison is made. The final tip on the scale came in the character builder guide(3.0) in the desciption of the half orc cleric of Corellon Laurethian.

Quincunx
2009-03-30, 02:53 AM
I like Darth Stabber's "add them up and get a numerical result" idea. After all, if we're playing, we're already doing a lot of that. That it looks, to my hazy grasp of statistics, to give the same results as the Mendel boxes would is a bonus.

A friend of mine had this to add, elucidating how he determines half-elf qualities:

<Xaious> As I decided while playing Az, Red hair, while a passive trait, comes from the mother, who is human. Elves, as the 'french' race of D&D, are made of entirely recessive traits (when compared to human geneology), and therefore, the red hair
<Xaious> Also, Dwarven geneology is a more dominant geneology than that of humans, and equally dominant as that of Orcs
It didn't occur to me to ask, at the time, whether he considered dwarves medium (able to cross-breed with medium races) or small (inable).

Nu
2009-03-30, 04:19 AM
If its alive, a dragon can hit it...

Who said it had to be alive (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Magil/New/dragonsmate.jpg)?

Mechanical dragons come from somewhere too, and according to Mishra, they are "born, not made!" (http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/5e/Dragon_Engine.jpg)

Quincunx
2009-03-30, 06:14 AM
*zooms through the discussion, WHAMs into a stray shin or three*
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u231/Quincunx_GitP/mintazoomy.png
THAT'S SLOPPY ENGINEERING!
*handbrake turn, points horn sensors forward, zooms out again*

Darth Stabber
2009-03-30, 02:02 PM
If you decide to use the continuum, be sure to keep in mind that it will only give you the mechanical distinction. There may be some setting related non-mechanical distinction. For example if elves are super snobby, the child of an elf/half-elf pairing will still likely be seen as lacking, given that there is still orc blood sullying his elfyness (though it is more likely viewed as human blood doing the sullying, because the various races may not be fully cognizant of the continuum). Oh and if two half dragons of differing color mate, the result is of the mother. In fact in any ambiguous case default to the mother.