Calling All Amateur Generals...

[Felixaar]

Update: Troops have been updated! Make sure to re-check the troop listings of both sides before continuing.

Okay, so, in my novel, there's an upcoming battle/war, and I'm in the planning stages but interested in getting some general ideas. So, as a hypothetical situaiton...

Side A
10,000 Trained Human Soliders, equipped with Bronze armour (say, a helmet, breastplate, bracers, greaves) and a range of weapons - approximately 20% with bows, 40% with sword and shield, and 40% with various polearms.

Then, this is where you get an option.

EITHER

Siege Troops: A further 10% are trained in siege tactics and able to assemble siege weapons, though supplies are limited, so chances are only 10 or so siege engines, of your choice, could be made.

OR

Air Troops: A select few - perhaps twenty troops - would have access to Pegasus, and the General access to a wyvern.

(the reason for the choice is that, since the air troops would be battling the opposing air troops, using siege weapons would be v. dangerous and risk hitting own troops. of course, if you can come up with a way to work around this - I have a few inklings but am curious as to thoughts, please, tell so (the ruthless "Bah! Our men are worthless, if we hit them it's their fault for not flying out of the way!" school of thought is not an applicable example))

This army has approx. 3 epic characters, ones around whom entire formations could/would revolve. The General, if you take the Air Troops, can be mounted on a Wyvern, and other two can be mounted on pegasi, if you so desire.

Side B
1200 Elite Humanoid Melee Troops, armed with a variety of close range weaponry, including shields.
- 50% wear heavy armour and are knight-like
- 16.66% are above average strength and height but wear no armour
- 16.66% are highly dextrous
- 16.66% are skilled swimers and somewhat uncomfortable on land (come up with a way to make this advantageous and I'll give you many cookies)
200 Giant Elite Melee Troops (approx. eight feet tall), armed with double handed weapons.
200 Small, Sneaky Troops (approx. four feet tall), stealthy and equipped with your choice of weapons.
400 Winged, Flying Troops, armed with a variety of ranged weapons (bows, crossbows, slings, etc.) and shortswords. Burst into flame upon death.

This side contains 2 epic characters, in the Elite Humanoid Melee section - one of whom is especially bloodthirsty, in the dextrous category, and the other is in the knightlike category - and 3 sub-epic characters - 1 EMH, one GEM, and one WF. Also contains an epic unit, consisting of eight men - one from each category, and the previous mentioned knightlike epic character.

The battle takes place in a location known as the Thorn Plains - so, relatively flat plains, ground fairly thorny (so, like, bring shoes). Limited forestry round about. Assume both sides have adequate supplies, etc.

Side B's goal is to break through Side A and lose them.
Side A's goal is to prevent this via "righteous" slaughter.

Pick a side, or do both, and present your strategy - if you feel like, it of course. And thanks! I'll be sure to steal several of your ideas and discuss back and what not. Go nuts!

EDIT: Wow, thanks everybody for all the help :smallbiggrin:

Okay, a few things...
Yeah, Side A is really that swordy. Put it down to phallocentric society if you want to. These guys are used to being the local toughmen, not fighitng massive campaigns. Their two highest officers are competent, but... they're a bit cautious :smallsigh: they don't really know much about what they're fighting for and so don't have a lot of resolve.

Side B is more or less a ragtag bunch of misfits, but they're exceedingly apt at battle - in a mono on mono fight between them and a regular human, they'd win 90% of the time. They don't know a lot about war but have some general ideas, and are pretty intelligent/innovative. And yeah, they're a to death kind of crowd. Side A is just going to have to slaughter them to a man, which is okay, because they wouldn't want otherwise. Oh, and they're not human, but they're not like undead or robots - the main differences are physical, which I've already outlined.

Neither side is entrenched, both have recently arrived upon the battlefiend. Side B's ultimate goal is to reach and infilitrate a city in the north, and have been travelling north, Side A's goal is to block them before they get a chance and thus have been heading south. No, Side B does not have to defeat Side A entirely, just get past them long enough to get to the city - admittedly, theirs is something of a suicide mission.

On the epic/sub-epic characters/units, yeah, they can die. Not all of them, but they can. Their deaths are already mostly planned out, but I'd be willing to take suggestions.

So, I like the idea of Side A picking Siege Troops over Air Troops, and I love the whole Fire Bombing idea - it's a bit of poetic justice (you'll find out why when you read the completed novel). Keep 'em comin', lads.

Oh, and we're not near a river.

EDIT II: ELECTRIC BUGALOO - Hmm, people make good points about the polearms/swords things, and I want to do my best to keep historical inaccuracies to a minimum... even though, since this is a world of our own, history is as I wrote it, still, cool.

Sorry for not mentioning it earlier: Yes, Side A is the local proffesional military, so, they have a lot of money backing them, and "loyalty", since they get a pension if, and only if, they retire at an older age (40-50 area). Also, they live in a nation with fairly good resources as far as metals go. However, i referr to them as the "local toughs" mainy because they're not in any real war - they have the occasional skirmish, but nothing war. So, yes, sorry for the confusion.

And thanks for pointing the percentage problems out, Sky. I'll go fix them up now.

Thanks everyone for help so far. Anything else you have to say would also be V. appreciated.

EDIT LE THIRD:

Ah, sorry about that. Each force has been travelling approximately a week - Side B maybe a bit less - And though they both arrive at the same time, they do not immediately begin battle. Since the battle is North/South facing, Sun in the Eyes is not an issue. The terrain is rather unremakrable.

I like the Kamikaze-Bombing-Of-Commander's idea.

Thanks again to everyone for all your help :smallbiggrin:


Lastly, please tell me when you publish your book so I can buy it!

Ha, of course :smallbiggrin: I'll make a topic obviously, but I'll be sure to PM you (also, you could try bookmarking my website (http://www.felinuanbooks.webs.com)).

[FireFox]

Okay, so, in my novel, there's an upcoming battle/war, and I'm in the planning stages but interested in getting some general ideas. So, as a hypothetical situaiton...

Side A
10,000 Trained Human Soliders, equipped with Bronze armour (say, a helmet, breastplate, bracers, greaves) and a range of weapons - approximately 10% with bows, 60% with sword (or simillar) and shield, 20% with spears, and 10% with pikes.

Then, this is where you get an option.

EITHER

Siege Troops: A further 10% are trained in siege tactics and able to assemble siege weapons, though supplies are limited, so chances are only 10 or so siege engines, of your choice, could be made.

OR

Air Troops: A select few - perhaps twenty troops - would have access to Pegasus, and the General access to a wyvern.

(the reason for the choice is that, since the air troops would be battling the opposing air troops, using siege weapons would be v. dangerous and risk hitting own troops. of course, if you can come up with a way to work around this - I have a few inklings but am curious as to thoughts, please, tell so (the ruthless "Bah! Our men are worthless, if we hit them it's their fault for not flying out of the way!" school of thought is not an applicable example))

This army has approx. 3 epic characters, ones around whom entire formations could/would revolve. The General, if you take the Air Troops, can be mounted on a Wyvern, and other two can be mounted on pegasi, if you so desire.

Side B
1200 Elite Humanoid Melee Troops, armed with a variety of close range weaponry, including shields.
- 50% wear heavy armour and are knight-like
- 13.33% are above average strength and height but wear no armour
- 13.33% are highly dextrous
- 13.33% are skilled swimers and somewhat uncomfortable on land (come up with a way to make this advantageous and I'll give you many cookies)
200 Giant Elite Melee Troops (approx. eight feet tall), armed with double handed weapons.
200 Small, Sneaky Troops (approx. four feet tall), stealthy and equipped with your choice of weapons.
400 Winged, Flying Troops, armed with a variety of ranged weapons (bows, crossbows, slings, etc.) and shortswords. Burst into flame upon death.

This side contains 2 epic characters, in the Elite Humanoid Melee section - one of whom is especially bloodthirsty, in the dextrous category, and the other is in the knightlike category - and 3 sub-epic characters - 1 EMH, one GEM, and one WF. Also contains an epic unit, consisting of eight men - one from each category, and the previous mentioned knightlike epic character.

The battle takes place in a location known as the Thorn Plains - so, relatively flat plains, ground fairly thorny (so, like, bring shoes). Limited forestry round about. Assume both sides have adequate supplies, etc.

Side B's goal is to break through Side A and lose them.
Side A's goal is to prevent this via "righteous" slaughter.

Pick a side, or do both, and present your strategy - if you feel like, it of course. And thanks! I'll be sure to steal several of your ideas and discuss back and what not. Go nuts!

400 to 20 flying soldiers would just be a slaughter. Going for siege as opposed to the fliers, and then backing the siege up with the archers and pikers would probably be A's strategy. Since A outnumbers the foe 5:1, their best bet would be to have the spear fighters on the flanks and then try to envelop the side of the enemy in the classic pincer movement. The sword users would be charging in the middle, but be careful to not take too much ground too quickly so as to lose their flanks behind.

B is fairly screwed. Their best hope is exploiting hypothetical incompetence among their enemy. I would have the 600 armored men on the flanks, holding as best as they can while their fliers support them at range and try to either slaughter A's fliers or surgically strike at their seige before returning behind the knights. The 200 giants should be focused on wrecking the enemy's formation by generally smashing holes in the front line. If the enemy soldiers are out of tight rank and file, that is, they have gaps among them, the 200 sneaky guys should try and flow through these cracks, making larger ones while trying to make it to the enemy's rear and the seige weapons. The remainder 600 troops should, considering you say they are elite, focus on cutting down any of the enemy that makes it through the flank or the center. Assuming the enemy attacks in one huge charge, B should hold their ground and not let anybody threw. After A has broken up like waves on a rocky beach, these 600 should immediately counterattack, pressing their advantage along with whatever of the 600 armored knights remain. Bold initiative taking will win the day, provided the enemy doesn't know what they are doing. As I have said before, it is the priority of the fliers to take out the siege and to use their ranged weapons to thin the large ranks of the enemy. In particular, they should aim for the enemy commanders, flag/horn signalers, and anybody else that would create chaos and disorganization upon their death.

[Cristo Meyers]

Even in a breakthrough scenario, Side B is pretty royally screwed here: outnumbered 5 to 1, factor in the size differences and it's maybe more like 3 to 1.

Against 400 flying troops, unless the potential 20 Side A can take severely outclass them, deploying 20 against 400 would be suicide. Using the siege troops to make 10 Scorpions on the other hand...

Unless there's no way for Side B to retreat and fall back to some sort of stronghold (which, seeing as you've put forth their objective as breakthrough the enemy lines), they'd be fools to take the field. But, seeing as the fortunes of war are fickle, I guess I'd do this:

Side B has the air advantage, but 1000 enemy archers makes any kind of aerial attack risky at best. If they can fly out of range of arrows, then they go in and drop whatever they can on the enemy lines. An army of 10000 is going to be somewhat slow to react, so a lightning style attack on a certain section to soften it up for the next step:

The big boys, giant elites, form the hammerhead and smash into the weakened section, hopefully to pave the way for the next groups. If anyone here gets "stuck in", then they're pretty much doomed and would probably be left behind.

The rest of the army follows closely behind the giant elites. The aim is to break that part of the enemy line and breakthrough. If they can do that, then they essentially run as fast as they can for the horizon and don't stop until the enemy army is just a blotch on the horizon.

Side A: I was going to say that your ratio of sword and shield to spear was somewhat unrealistic, but then I realized I'm talking about an army that has the option of taking pegasus riders, so I'll just go with it.

Take siege troops, make something like Scorpions or other ballistae, but the spears and pikes in front, the swords in the middle and flanks, and the archers in back, and just dig in. Your enemy can't take a prolonged engagement. They get one chance to break through your lines. Wait for them to attack, and when they do fold the flanks in and encircle the enemy.

The way I look at this, Side A pretty much as Side B dead to rights.

[FireFox]

It would be very easy for Side A to win this, but if your story calls for them to lose you can play with a few things. Morale has always been a decisive factor in warfare, depicting the soldiers of Side B destroying their cooking pots and other necessities shows the reader that these guys are prepared to fight until the death, and that gives them a distinct advantage. An unlucky reduction of the leaders of Side A can throw an organized slaughter into mayhem, particularly if the noncoms and executive officers underneath the leaders have very little initiative and are too paralyzed too take effective command. If you really want Side B to win, you can show the individual companies and regiments of Side A as very unorganized. Independent commands, such as would be under feudal knights, that are eager for the "righteous slaughter" could theoretically end up fighting each other as much as the enemy. If you also show Side B as being highly disciplined, it is not unrealistic to think that they have some chance of winning. And fantastic victories in the face of overwhelming odds have been recorded in history, not to mention the fact that they make for entertaining stories. But this is overstepping my bounds slightly.

I do disagree with you Cristo, albeit very slightly. Any army that outnumbers the other 5:1 should not hesitate to press their advantage quickly. I recognize the problem of overconfidence, but with that sort of numbers a quick, brutal onslaught would be far more preferable to digging in to a defensive position. What is Side B tries to go around, or attacks a flank instead of the middle? Giving them any time at all to plan something like you've been talking about would be a mistake.

[Cristo Meyers]

I do disagree with you Cristo, albeit very slightly. Any army that outnumbers the other 5:1 should not hesitate to press their advantage quickly. I recognize the problem of overconfidence, but with that sort of numbers a quick, brutal onslaught would be far more preferable to digging in to a defensive position. What is Side B tries to go around, or attacks a flank instead of the middle? Giving them any time at all to plan something like you've been talking about would be a mistake.

I read it as more Side B has no where else to go but through Side A, that's why I said they should dig in. Like you said, morale is a factor. Imagine you're a grunt in Side B and all you can see is this army that outnumbers you greatly smugly sitting there, waiting for you to come to them. It'd be like being under siege. You only have one option, and it's exactly what they want you to do.

If Side B had some other option, fall back to a defensive position, etc, then I'd agree, especially since 60% of Side A is sword & shield (read: offensive) troops. Charge and slaughter them now, before you have to fight them on their terms.

[FireFox]

That's a very good point. I'm still wary of it though, given that if gives Side B too much time too plan and pick out a different point other than the middle to go through, while protecting against your plan of folding up the flanks.

[Cristo Meyers]

That's a very good point. I'm still wary of it though, given that if gives Side B too much time too plan and pick out a different point other than the middle to go through, while protecting against your plan of folding up the flanks.

I never said the middle, in fact, I'd recommend against it. I said they should pick a certain point and pound it to hopefully break it. With such a limited number of spears and pikes, that's really the only option they have. Unfortunately, every step towards the enemy that they take is going to get them peppered with arrows and (if you took the option) blasted with siege artillery (in my case, really big arrows).

Attacking the flank would protect somewhat against being encircled. But when there are 5 enemy soldiers (granted, a number of them are archers) for every 1 of yours it would probably only delay rather than prevent it.

[FireFox]

Oh? Mea culpa then. Do you think a Roman style sheild wall/ceiling would help defend against the arrows? Barring some sort of timely arrival of reinforcements, such as von Blucher at Waterloo, Side B is, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed. If they could make some sort of fire hurlers with oil and the thorn bushes/other vegetation they might be able to make punching a hole easier... Basically, all A has to do to win is be competant, right? But there have been incompetant leaders before in history.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Side B forms their troops into a phalnx formation and deploys their airial units into a aerial superiority role, and fights a defensive battle.

Their stealth troops make nocturnal/diurunal (depending on the opponent's sleep cycle if they're optimised for siege). An ariel side A would prompt stealth unit attacks on their stables, and a defensive dome in lieu of a proper phalanx, shifting into a proper phalanx after the pegasi are slaughtered.
Air units then dive-bomb and harass the enemy ground troops.

Mounted Units employ hit-and-run horse archery tactics.
Foot soldiers keep cycles of watches, protecting your elites, and filling in gaps in your Giant phalanx.

Stealth units assassinate and raid enemy supplies after crippling of the opponent's "special" infrastructure (their seige/arial apabilities.)

As soon as the enemy ramps up their secuirty against stealth troops, employ a single assault waves of horse archers, and then pull them back, before sending out a smal skirmish team of foot-soliders, backed by your well rested elites.

Only under extremly favourable circumstances should the stealth units initiate any attack on the enemy's elites.

[Cristo Meyers]

Oh? Mea culpa then. Do you think a Roman style sheild wall/ceiling would help defend against the arrows? Barring some sort of timely arrival of reinforcements, such as von Blucher at Waterloo, Side B is, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed. If they could make some sort of fire hurlers with oil and the thorn bushes/other vegetation they might be able to make punching a hole easier... Basically, all A has to do to win is be competant, right? But there have been incompetant leaders before in history.

That's pretty much how I see it too. This is Side A's battle to lose.

As for shield walls:

Against the regular archers? Sure.

Against ballistae? Not a chance. Though admittedly aiming a ballista or a Scorpion with a lot of accuracy is tricky.

I hadn't thought of a fire trap. Now that could actually work. If the vegetation is dry enough, on the plains all it would take is a spark. Aerial units drop firejars or something and Side A now has a blazing inferno to worry about. Only problem is that fire, especially a plains wildfire, is indiscriminate.

[FireFox]

Thanatos: It seems like you're thinking of sustained warfare, as opposed to a single battle. In your case, what would B do if A just charged them?

Cristo: If they wait until favorable winds, maybe dig a firebreak in front of their own lines... burn a hole through and then charge... It might work against a disorganized army...

[Cristo Meyers]

Cristo: If they wait until favorable winds, maybe dig a firebreak in front of their own lines... burn a hole through and then charge... It might work against a disorganized army...

If the fire were to spring up at an inopportune time...

...like, say, when a couple of flyers sneak over the enemy lines during the night and drop their firestarters...

...then trust me, they'll become disorganized. It would take prep time, like you've noted, but it's a sight better than just trying to break the enemy line.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Tighten all defnses, wake all the watchstanders heavy on the defense, be the rock rock agains twhich their wave crashes.

Alternatly, employ river tactics, lure and retreat until your desitnation is the fall back postion, put the metaphorical sun in their eyes, and then run towards it.

[GoC]

A is screwed. B can just drop rocks on people until everyone's dead. A will have to scatter to avoid this and then B can pick off isolated groups.

[rankrath]

I'd say B has an easier time at winning this battle, as they would have control of the sky; which, in modern warfare, is generally the deciding factor. B, while outnumbered 3:1, can still put 400 troops out of reach side A, and use then to wreak havoc on them, destroying headquarters and lines of command. Once side A is sufficiently disorganized, B can concentrate it's forces at one point and break through A's lines.

[Cristo Meyers]

I really don't see how having aerial superiority in this battle is going to help Side B at all. Fully 1/5 of their army is built for the air, taking vital soldiers off of the ground, and has the nasty habit of turning into a fireball upon death.

Flying out of range of enemy bowshot means aiming anything is going to be problematic, at best. Getting in range to drop anything or attack anyone means getting peppered with 2.5 arrows per aerial soldier.

And that's not getting into what would happen if Side A built 10 grapeshot catapults or something similar.

Attempting a sustained aerial attack on Side A is only going to result in one thing, having that army that outnumbers you 5 : 1 start marching down your throat. Side B can't afford the kind of sustained attack put forth here.

[rankrath]

I really don't see how having aerial superiority in this battle is going to help Side B at all. Fully 1/5 of their army is built for the air, taking vital soldiers off of the ground, and has the nasty habit of turning into a fireball upon death.

You don't want to have 100% of your army on the ground. There's a reason modern armies use air power, if you own the skies, your opponents cannot hide anywhere.



Flying out of range of enemy bowshot means aiming anything is going to be problematic, at best. Getting in range to drop anything or attack anyone means getting peppered with 2.5 arrows per aerial soldier.

This is a medieval battlefield, to be effective, troops have to be massed together, which makes aiming a minor concern. And the air troops will far out range ground troops; height adds distance to shots, and gravity will be working against side A.



And that's not getting into what would happen if Side A built 10 grapeshot catapults or something similar.


That would be a complete waste of Side A's resources. Side B's air wing could scatter for the first shot, then swoop in and burn the catapults before side A could reload. Or, the air wing could hover over side A's lines, and the grape shot would drop on Side A's own troops.



Attempting a sustained aerial attack on Side A is only going to result in one thing, having that army that outnumbers you 5 : 1 start marching down your throat. Side B can't afford the kind of sustained attack put forth here.

I would disagree. An aerial attack on Side A, if properly executed, would result in the destruction of A's command structure and greatly demoralize side A as well.

[Mordokai]

One thing we can consider is that side B aerial troops turn into fireball on death.

Kamikaze anybody? If you're willing to sacrifice 400 soldiers, you can a hell of a lot damage with them. Yes, it is a big sacrifice, but no war is won without casualties. Might as well made good use of them. 400 fireballs does a lot of damage, even before the morale kicks in. If side A is clustered enough(which I will assume it is), flyers could do massive damage to ground troops, demoralise them and then the elites and giants swoop in with blitzkrieg.

Add the possibility of sneaky units flanking the enemy. Give them some sort of range weapons and they can support their melee buddies well without exposing themselves too much. If you're near a river, the swimers could be put to good use as well. That way, side B flanks side A from three sides while fireballs are falling on them. Even a strong will will break under this pretty soon and I don't think rank and file soldiers are very strong willed.

[Deathslayer7]

Okay, so, in my novel, there's an upcoming battle/war, and I'm in the planning stages but interested in getting some general ideas. So, as a hypothetical situaiton...

Side A
10,000 Trained Human Soliders, equipped with Bronze armour (say, a helmet, breastplate, bracers, greaves) and a range of weapons - approximately 10% with bows, 60% with sword (or simillar) and shield, 20% with spears, and 10% with pikes.

Then, this is where you get an option.

EITHER

Siege Troops: A further 10% are trained in siege tactics and able to assemble siege weapons, though supplies are limited, so chances are only 10 or so siege engines, of your choice, could be made.

OR

Air Troops: A select few - perhaps twenty troops - would have access to Pegasus, and the General access to a wyvern.

(the reason for the choice is that, since the air troops would be battling the opposing air troops, using siege weapons would be v. dangerous and risk hitting own troops. of course, if you can come up with a way to work around this - I have a few inklings but am curious as to thoughts, please, tell so (the ruthless "Bah! Our men are worthless, if we hit them it's their fault for not flying out of the way!" school of thought is not an applicable example))

This army has approx. 3 epic characters, ones around whom entire formations could/would revolve. The General, if you take the Air Troops, can be mounted on a Wyvern, and other two can be mounted on pegasi, if you so desire.

Side B
1200 Elite Humanoid Melee Troops, armed with a variety of close range weaponry, including shields.
- 50% wear heavy armour and are knight-like
- 13.33% are above average strength and height but wear no armour
- 13.33% are highly dextrous
- 13.33% are skilled swimers and somewhat uncomfortable on land (come up with a way to make this advantageous and I'll give you many cookies)
200 Giant Elite Melee Troops (approx. eight feet tall), armed with double handed weapons.
200 Small, Sneaky Troops (approx. four feet tall), stealthy and equipped with your choice of weapons.
400 Winged, Flying Troops, armed with a variety of ranged weapons (bows, crossbows, slings, etc.) and shortswords. Burst into flame upon death.

This side contains 2 epic characters, in the Elite Humanoid Melee section - one of whom is especially bloodthirsty, in the dextrous category, and the other is in the knightlike category - and 3 sub-epic characters - 1 EMH, one GEM, and one WF. Also contains an epic unit, consisting of eight men - one from each category, and the previous mentioned knightlike epic character.

The battle takes place in a location known as the Thorn Plains - so, relatively flat plains, ground fairly thorny (so, like, bring shoes). Limited forestry round about. Assume both sides have adequate supplies, etc.

Side B's goal is to break through Side A and lose them.
Side A's goal is to prevent this via "righteous" slaughter.

Pick a side, or do both, and present your strategy - if you feel like, it of course. And thanks! I'll be sure to steal several of your ideas and discuss back and what not. Go nuts!

If you want me to give you a good account of what would happen, I need to know a bit more information then just what you have listed.

For one, how much time does B have to take Side A down?
Do they even have to take Side A down?
Can Side A take Side B down?
Is side A entrenched?
Why is Side B attacking Side A. It's stupid of them to do so unless they are presured. If they are, I need to know this.
Is Side B human or like robots or something? Cause if they are like undead or something, dont feel pain, fear, etc. that can help them possibly.
Then we go on to these epic/sub-epic characters. Can they die, or do they have to stay alive?

Let me know all this, and which side you want to win, and i can give you a clear approach of how to go about it. Not saying that Side A will have an easy time taking Side B down though. (If Side B does it right that is)

[Renegade Paladin]

Why all the sword and board? In this scenario, you want pikes, and lots of them. As a bonus, they're easier to learn to use than swords.

[Anuan]

If you want me to give you a good account of what would happen, I need to know a bit more information then just what you have listed.

For one, how much time does B have to take Side A down?
Do they even have to take Side A down?
Can Side A take Side B down?
Is side A entrenched?
Why is Side B attacking Side A. It's stupid of them to do so unless they are presured. If they are, I need to know this.
Is Side B human or like robots or something? Cause if they are like undead or something, dont feel pain, fear, etc. that can help them possibly.
Then we go on to these epic/sub-epic characters. Can they die, or do they have to stay alive?

Let me know all this, and which side you want to win, and i can give you a clear approach of how to go about it. Not saying that Side A will have an easy time taking Side B down though. (If Side B does it right that is)

I can give a bit of info here, as co-author. Side B is not human, as such, but can quite definitely feel fear and pain, anger, all the other physical and psychological feelings of humans.

Side B is very, very pressured; it's either attack or get wiped out, for reasons I can't elaborate as they are central to the story.

If the epic/sup-epic characters are who I'm thinking of, at least the Epic has to stay alive, but he's most likely going to be very, very aggresive.

[Cristo Meyers]

You don't want to have 100% of your army on the ground. There's a reason modern armies use air power, if you own the skies, your opponents cannot hide anywhere.

Except modern airpower doesn't get tired and can fly higher and faster than anything except weapons specifically designed to target them.

We don't have that here. How long, flying at an altitude where they are out of range of enemy arrows, until these troops are too tired to continue fighting?

Better yet, how long until, when Side A realizes this is the plan, until Side A has charged the remaining troops of Side B and makes this tactic completely nonviable without hitting their own troops?


This is a medieval battlefield, to be effective, troops have to be massed together, which makes aiming a minor concern. And the air troops will far out range ground troops; height adds distance to shots, and gravity will be working against side A.

Granted. But this isn't just point and click, if they're flying high enough to remain out of range of the enemy's bows (which, considering these are foot troops, could mean anything from a short bow to an English-style long bow) there's going to be more to consider than just firing at the enemy. There's still wind up there that is going to mess with their archery. 'Course, that cuts both ways...



That would be a complete waste of Side A's resources. Side B's air wing could scatter for the first shot, then swoop in and burn the catapults before side A could reload. Or, the air wing could hover over side A's lines, and the grape shot would drop on Side A's own troops.

Again, hovering. How long before they tire out? They can't keep this up indefinitely and Side A isn't going to just sit there and be pelted. Also, if they scatter for the grapeshot, then that's even more time where they'll have to regroup to do any kind of effective damage. Assuming Side A just doesn't abandon the siege artillery and charge to crush Side B.


I would disagree. An aerial attack on Side A, if properly executed, would result in the destruction of A's command structure and greatly demoralize side A as well.

Provided that they could hit these people with any kind of accuracy with what would probably be the equivalent of a riding bow (for the ones that even have bows, the rest are using slings, or the probably more effective crossbow). Staying out of range of what is more than likely a bow with superior range and possibly power, while attempting to kill a single commanding officer in each regiment? Also, Side A is going to see them coming, probably for miles. Admittedly, that's not much time to prepare, but that's enough time to ensure that they're not going to be pinned down or, better yet, order the charge. Now you're trying to hit a moving target, at a range where there may not even be enough detail to pick out the officers, and do it all before they are too close to your own troops to continue firing.

The only thing I see an attack like this accomplishing is forcing Side A to charge rather than dig in. Side B's aerial troops would get one chance to eliminate the command structure, it'd be the equivalent of a Death Star Trench run, just without the Plot Coupon to ensure success.

[Deathslayer7]

honestly, if side A dug in and trenched themselves, they would be stupid and deserve to die. >.>

FOR SPARTAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*charges*

[Tensu]

Hmmm... I'm thinking keeping team A's sky troops in reserve, While melee troops hold of the much smaller enemy melee army, overwhelming them with force of numbers. Pick off the flying troops with bows. When the sky is clear, Flying troops, previously in hiding, make themselves known and the massacre begins, since side B has no archers. plus, side B's unarmored troops will probably end up killing themselves in the thorns.

I'd have side A's archers try to hit the flying troops in the wings, causing them to crash-land and explode, killing their own troops.

the only possible problem would be if the sneaky troops had picked a ranged weapon at their weapon of choice. And if they did my air troops could call out their position and my massive army could swarm them. I doubt side B would stand a chance...

as such, If I were side B, I'd have everyone split up and converge at an agreed upon point. Only engage enemies if you're sure you can rout, and stay out of sight as much as possible. The best way to beat side A is to not engage them.

[Renegade Paladin]

honestly, if side A dug in and trenched themselves, they would be stupid and deserve to die. >.>

FOR SPARTAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*charges*
Erm... The Spartans did dig in at Thermopylae. :smalltongue:

Anyway, presuming I can't rearm all those swordsmen with useful weapons, Side A's best bet is to go for a full press on the center and both flanks; they certainly have the numbers for it. Overwhelm the enemy as quickly as possible, mourn the unnecessary casualties who could have lived if they'd had weapons that didn't force them to run right up next to giants and proceed to do very little to them barring luck (presuming the giants are intelligent enough to wear thick footwear), and move on to take whatever Side B wanted to keep me away from.

[Felixaar]

Wow, thanks everybody for all the help :smallbiggrin:

Okay, a few things...
Yeah, Side A is really that swordy. Put it down to phallocentric society if you want to. These guys are used to being the local toughmen, not fighitng massive campaigns. Their two highest officers are competent, but... they're a bit cautious :smallsigh: they don't really know much about what they're fighting for and so don't have a lot of resolve.

Side B is more or less a ragtag bunch of misfits, but they're exceedingly apt at battle - in a mono on mono fight between them and a regular human, they'd win 90% of the time. They don't know a lot about war but have some general ideas, and are pretty intelligent/innovative. And yeah, they're a to death kind of crowd. Side A is just going to have to slaughter them to a man, which is okay, because they wouldn't want otherwise. Oh, and they're not human, but they're not like undead or robots - the main differences are physical, which I've already outlined.

Neither side is entrenched, both have recently arrived upon the battlefiend. Side B's ultimate goal is to reach and infilitrate a city in the north, and have been travelling north, Side A's goal is to block them before they get a chance and thus have been heading south. No, Side B does not have to defeat Side A entirely, just get past them long enough to get to the city - admittedly, theirs is something of a suicide mission.

On the epic/sub-epic characters/units, yeah, they can die. Not all of them, but they can. Their deaths are already mostly planned out, but I'd be willing to take suggestions.

So, I like the idea of Side A picking Siege Troops over Air Troops, and I love the whole Fire Bombing idea - it's a bit of poetic justice (you'll find out why when you read the completed novel). Keep 'em comin', lads.

Oh, and we're not near a river.

[Anuan]

So, I like the idea of Side A picking Siege Troops over Air Troops, and I love the whole Fire Bombing idea - it's a bit of poetic justice (you'll find out why when you read the completed novel).

Yet when you first started planning the battle and I offered that suggestion you were like 'I doubt they'd want to burn the place down' and stuff :smalltongue:

[Felixaar]

Aye, but that was different - that was then throwing fire balls willy-nilly into the battle. This would be an organized fire bombing at night, probably will some sort of defense to make sure the fire didn't spread far beyond the enemy camp.

[Renegade Paladin]

Local toughs would almost certainly not employ swords. In post-Roman history, swords were the province of highly trained and wealthy knights (both because of the difficulty of learning to use one properly and the difficulty, and therefore expense, of making them), and even then were used as a sidearm, with favor going to other weapons such as polearms, lances, hammers, and maces, any of which would be far more useful against giants, I might add. (Polearms are useful for their reach and ability to stop a charge, while heavy, blunt weapons are designed to shatter bone under armor, and would do just as well to a giant's leg as a man's ribcage.) You can certainly ignore these factors in your setting, but be aware that the nation equipping the army would have to be wealthy on the order of Imperial Rome to afford passing out honest-to-God swords to every soldier and retain them as a standing army long enough to train them to properly use them while still having them enlisted long enough to get their money's worth after training; that is, having an army entirely armed with swords suggests a professional army in the truest sense of the word. Most readers won't think about it, but be aware that this is an admittedly small factor straining suspension of disbelief for those who do.

[Cristo Meyers]

First, I second pretty much everything Renegade Paladin has said. An army that heavily armed with swords and presumably trained to use them means professional soldiers, not what are, as you put it, essentially the local toughmen. That to me says militia, meaning spears and maybe shields.

But, hey, it's your book, don't let my rampant picking of nits get in the way of the story you want to tell. :smalltongue:

Second, the fire trap. To me this is honestly the only way Side B can pull a victory out of this, especially with what you've just told us. If Side A is truly playing it cautiously and they try to dig in and wait (which seems to me to be what a cautious general would do) and Side B has time to dig/build a firebreak to keep from immolating themselves, then a fire in Side A's camp is going to throw the whole army into disarray. Follow that up with a surprise charge and Side A's line would probably fold like a newspaper.

[Anuan]

Local toughs would almost certainly not employ swords. In post-Roman history, swords were the province of highly trained and wealthy knights etc etc.

Just to clarify, he doesn't mean it's a hoard of thugs. This is the king's army. A highly trained and professional army; it's just that the country is historically sort of divided into four, with the North having won control through trickery and keeping a cruel, bullying control over every other section of the place. It's been a long time since a war was fought, but they've still been well trained.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

For the A's, they best thing they can do is use their superiority of archers to kill, and then zerg-rush the enemy.


For the B's, I would start with shooting random arrows into the camp. Burning arrows. Have each wingman have a small pot of oil and a slow-burning match, and you're set. Only use their flaming dive if they really need to. Oh, and this is at night, prefferably.

Meanwhile, set up a screen around the camp. These guys will use atl-atl javelin-throwers and slings. Silent, small, portable, check check and check. They will help keep the enemy unorganized, forcing them to keep withing the limits of the camp, meaning they can't fully use their troops.

Lastly, everyone else is circling around, a good distance away, with their camp-fires still going. They will go around the enemy, strike them hard once from behind, and then go on to the city. Hopefully, this is enough to demoralize the enemy for a later battle to happen on side B's terms. Edit: Even better, 2 groups of soldiers attack here.

Also, smoking bales of damp grass dropped on the enemy camp would be very effective as well. All sorts of distractions. If you have any sort of flares, shoot them right at the enemy. that sort of stuff.

What do you think?

[Deathslayer7]

all your guys's plans are genious except for one flaw i seem in them. Side A wouldnt sit there to be waid laste by fire or anything. Even a cautious general as the one Felix described would charge the enemy (and win).

You guys are just putting out what you would want to happen, not what would necessarily happen.

[Deathslayer7]

Okay, so, in my novel, there's an upcoming battle/war, and I'm in the planning stages but interested in getting some general ideas. So, as a hypothetical situaiton...

Side A
10,000 Trained Human Soliders, equipped with Bronze armour (say, a helmet, breastplate, bracers, greaves) and a range of weapons - approximately 10% with bows, 60% with sword (or simillar) and shield, 20% with spears, and 10% with pikes.

Then, this is where you get an option.

EITHER

Siege Troops: A further 10% are trained in siege tactics and able to assemble siege weapons, though supplies are limited, so chances are only 10 or so siege engines, of your choice, could be made.

OR

Air Troops: A select few - perhaps twenty troops - would have access to Pegasus, and the General access to a wyvern.

(the reason for the choice is that, since the air troops would be battling the opposing air troops, using siege weapons would be v. dangerous and risk hitting own troops. of course, if you can come up with a way to work around this - I have a few inklings but am curious as to thoughts, please, tell so (the ruthless "Bah! Our men are worthless, if we hit them it's their fault for not flying out of the way!" school of thought is not an applicable example))

This army has approx. 3 epic characters, ones around whom entire formations could/would revolve. The General, if you take the Air Troops, can be mounted on a Wyvern, and other two can be mounted on pegasi, if you so desire.

Side B
1200 Elite Humanoid Melee Troops, armed with a variety of close range weaponry, including shields.
- 50% wear heavy armour and are knight-like
- 13.33% are above average strength and height but wear no armour
- 13.33% are highly dextrous
- 13.33% are skilled swimers and somewhat uncomfortable on land (come up with a way to make this advantageous and I'll give you many cookies)
200 Giant Elite Melee Troops (approx. eight feet tall), armed with double handed weapons.
200 Small, Sneaky Troops (approx. four feet tall), stealthy and equipped with your choice of weapons.
400 Winged, Flying Troops, armed with a variety of ranged weapons (bows, crossbows, slings, etc.) and shortswords. Burst into flame upon death.

This side contains 2 epic characters, in the Elite Humanoid Melee section - one of whom is especially bloodthirsty, in the dextrous category, and the other is in the knightlike category - and 3 sub-epic characters - 1 EMH, one GEM, and one WF. Also contains an epic unit, consisting of eight men - one from each category, and the previous mentioned knightlike epic character.

The battle takes place in a location known as the Thorn Plains - so, relatively flat plains, ground fairly thorny (so, like, bring shoes). Limited forestry round about. Assume both sides have adequate supplies, etc.

Side B's goal is to break through Side A and lose them.
Side A's goal is to prevent this via "righteous" slaughter.

Pick a side, or do both, and present your strategy - if you feel like, it of course. And thanks! I'll be sure to steal several of your ideas and discuss back and what not. Go nuts!

Well I did my best to try and explain what would happen. And these are my thoughts. Hope they help.
Side B beating Side A:

The biggest problem Side B has is that they are outnumbered in this battle. Normally Commanders, when outnumbered, would prefer to fight on their own ground. Seeing as that won't happen, well then I would say that they are going to have to fight through the other army to get through them to get to the city.

First off, no headlong charges. On wide open plains, a massive charge against them would result in a defeat faster then you could "Suckas!"

That being said, Side A clearly has the advantages in this battle:

They aren't attacking but defending, which leaves it up to Side B to press the intiative.
They only have to delay/stop Side B from getting across them, meaning that they can retreat and give up ground slowly if need be.
The only bad thing is that Side B has air superioty. 20 pegasi and 1 wevryn couldn't stand up to 400 flying archers.


So what does Side B have to do to get past Side A.

The long way would be to peg them off little by little, but this could take months or even longer depending on how good/bad they are at it.

The shorter way is to form small commando groups.The 400 flying archers would be providing air support to any and all ground units. The best ground units for this type of attacking would be calvary. They have the speed necessary to spread chaos and confusion across. In this case, I assume the highly sneaky ones would make do along with the highly dextrous ones as well.

From there, the best thing to do is hit and run from all sides. Break slightly into their flank, with some sort of kamikaze fireball or something, cause confusion and mayhem for less then a minute, and get out.

Rinse and repeat from other groups on all sides. To make it even better, the air troops can toss explosives and such onto/near the enemy. In the meantime while they are doing this, you can have the heavy knights push into the base with a main flank with some support to cause even more damage.

But the damage you want to cause isnt killing people (while yes that's a bonus, what you want to do is break weapons, poison food, hurt supplies and wagons. Break/burn anything that might be possibly useful to them. Kill any horses they have. Sabatoge anything. If Side A chose to go with siege machines, then this would be the perfect oppurtunity to destroy them.

You'll lose people this way, and indeed it would be better if they had the element of suprise, otherwise it is a lot harder to do. Probably almost impossible. This above method doesn't work very well though if Side A is supplied tremendously and/or is recieving supplies.

In the meantime, you can have Side B setting a trap to burn the plains, and set it up so that however long the battle goes on, Side A finally gets tired of it and charges Side B right into their trap. I'm sure that sooner or later they would get tired of waiting to be picked off.

As to the Pegasi/wevryn. Well you could have a battle in that of itself vs the 400 archers or something. Or come up with something creative. Not really sure.

The only problem Side B faces is that everytime they chance doing guerilla tactics, Side A has the option of rushing them. Then side B is put on the defensive, and if they dont retreat and back off or have some sort of backup plan, then they are literally screwed.

[skywalker]

Well, first of all, your percentages for B's 1200... Don't add up to 100%. Need a few more troops in each group, a few more nights, something. There are only 1060 total with those percentages, tho.

How long have A been traveling? Likewise for B? How close are we to A's city?

The way I see it, playing as A is no fun :smalltongue: So I will try B.

If A have been traveling a long way, then B still have miles to go. Not a good situation for B, having to fight and then continue to run. Then again, they could have a significant speed advantage over A.

The way I see it, tho, these guys have both just arrived. There is no opportunity to encamp/plan/wait for nightfall, correct me if I'm wrong. This is one reason why I'm having a hard time envisioning the siege. Did the humans tow it here? Are they building on site? How much value, in the erstwhile opinion of B's leader, do the humans place on these siege engines? I question the usefulness of siege (of any type) against a force that is smaller and more mobile, no matter the specific engine. On the other hand,

Anyway, if they highly value the siege (for morale or other reasons) I would try to outflank them and make it as much of a liability as possible. How much space have I got? If I have sufficient space, will try to force a choice between staying with the siege and sending sufficient strength at my guys. This moment of indecision can be capitalized to run half the army around them. If they stay with the siege, we force them to show their understanding of trigonometry. If not, then the other half can quickly hit the siege, archers, and anyone else who remained behind while the hammer of God fell on my first guys.

If we're more cramped, it's a bit trickier. How important are the swimmer guys to my coalition? Are they fanatics too? Opposed to a suicide mission? Are they obviously uncomfortable or not? Do the humans know that they are? If not, I send 50 fliers on an all out blitz towards the right side of their formation (from my perspective). They expend ranged ammo on their way towards the formation, then bring the fight to the enemy, spreading enough that one fireballing won't destroy any others. Then, I send those 160 (at current numbers) swimmers plus some giants (50?) at the same place. Depending on how fast these guys can move, I look to take advantage of confusion and the possibility of the archers being unable to mass fire. As the giants hit that flank (and the humans flock to the righteous slaughter), the stealthy guys hit them in the back, as hard and fast as possible. They aim for flags. The remaining fliers (who are presumably evolved to see farther, think about birds?) pick out flags and then archers from up high, and then fall on them. Finally, mixed groups of foot soldiers centered around characters and giants (thinking a group centered around 5 giants a piece, meaning... 30 groups?) bang into those parts of the human formation that are softest (read:swordiest).

The advantage of this plan is that while it is complicated, each group's individual orders are not. There is very little for each group to screw up. An army as large as A cannot communicate swiftly enough to adapt, especially if it loses its flags (which is why I'm throwing human fireballs at them).

Best case scenario, we can cause catastrophe for the humans if we kill one or both generals, as well as any other commanders. Not sure how the human army would react, but I think my boyz men would have a pretty good idea what to do.

I think what we can reasonably expect is to force a "re-group" by the cautious humans, which will give us the opportunity to cut and run (maybe a viable tactic, not sure), or hit them while they re-group. How well can they perform a fighting retreat? Doesn't sound too promising for them. We have the advantage of only having one goal.

Worst case scenario, we all die. Which doesn't sound like we mind too much :smallbiggrin:

[Tensu]

If side B didn't want to charge (a suicide move) this is how I'd handle it:

First off, call my air calvary. Give them bows with flaming arrows. Send them into the clouds with instructions to descend on the enemy camp to pick off flying units and fall back as soon as the enemy starts to take the air.

The explosions from these exploding winged humanoids throw the enemy camp into chaos, with many men getting taken out by the explosions. Once Those that survive start to take to wing, my sky calvary falls back.

If the winged humanoids purse, they're target practice for my archers. If not, my Pegasi rest for another raid.

Eventually the enemy forces will be left with two options due to depletion of men: push through, taking heavy losses or retreat.

If they push through the bramble, that's a death sentence. By the time they reach my archers only their knights should be left, and my men can swarm them.

If they push through the forest or split up, I give my troops orders to intercept accordingly.

After the fight, I'll fly my Wyvern to the enemy camp and give him a good wiff to track down any survivors. A rout.

[Felixaar]

Hmm, people make good points about the polearms/swords things, and I want to do my best to keep historical inaccuracies to a minimum... even though, since this is a world of our own, history is as I wrote it, still, cool.

Sorry for not mentioning it earlier: Yes, Side A is the local proffesional military, so, they have a lot of money backing them, and "loyalty", since they get a pension if, and only if, they retire at an older age (40-50 area). Also, they live in a nation with fairly good resources as far as metals go. However, i referr to them as the "local toughs" mainy because they're not in any real war - they have the occasional skirmish, but nothing war. So, yes, sorry for the confusion.

And thanks for pointing the percentage problems out, Sky. I'll go fix them up now.

Thanks everyone for help so far. Anything else you have to say would also be V. appreciated.

Edit: Troops have been updated! Make sure to re-check the troop listings of both sides before continuing.

[Kcalehc]

Ok, so not a single person stopped to ask: What does the battle field look like? Terrain is a major factor in deciding medieval style battles, Sun Tzu realised this a few thousand years ago, pretty sure it'd still be important in this scenario.

Take Agincourt as an example, English were heavily outnumbered, yet terrain greatly assisted in the vistory. Or Rourkes Drift, sure the relative tech level made a difference, but the open killing fields around the farm helped too; a few ridgelines or gulleys and it could have been a whole different story.

Are there any hills, ridgelines, cliffs, forests, ditches, rivers, muddy/boggy areas? Are the forces in a narrow defile, is one side of the battle field onthe coast, thus meaning a flank on that side is impossible. Or is it a plain flat open field with no hindrances to manoeuver or sight, which seems to be the consensus?

Which way is the wind blowing, is it foggy, is it rainy? Fog and wind can make using bows difficult as aiming is hard, rain because it dampens the strings making it hard to draw correctly. Fogand rain will also make it hard for the larger side if one end of the line cannot see all the way to the other. Rain also making the human side a little slower and tiring them faster (wet armour can be heavy).

If your story requires one side to win, without neccessarily killing all of the other side, then this detail is important. Basing a strategy on simple numbers alone without taking into account environmental factors (location and weather) is a little too simplistic.

[FireFox]

The battle takes place in a location known as the Thorn Plains - so, relatively flat plains, ground fairly thorny (so, like, bring shoes). Limited forestry round about. Assume both sides have adequate supplies, etc.

Neither side is entrenched, both have recently arrived upon the battlefiend. Side B's ultimate goal is to reach and infilitrate a city in the north, and have been travelling north, Side A's goal is to block them before they get a chance and thus have been heading south. No, Side B does not have to defeat Side A entirely, just get past them long enough to get to the city - admittedly, theirs is something of a suicide mission.

Oh, and we're not near a river.


Location was mentioned, right in the original post and then clarifed in an edit, but you raise a good point about the weather. Damp and otherwise wet conditions can also have a notable effect on morale and willingness to fight, even moreso when one army can't, for various considerations, have campfires the night before the battle.

[Deathslayer7]

With your new parameters, the only problem i see is that the archers alone outnumber Side B.

With that alone, the archers can shoot in mass at Side B.

50 times or show, and Side B should be down for good. Have the pikemen/swordsmen clean up survivors.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

I think you would get a lot out of doing some reading about the battle of Crecy. (I'm no historian, but I had to write a report on it for a military course). It has all sorts of elements that sound similar to your situation in some respects.


The English wanted to continue pillaging, and seize a city further north.
The French wanted to destroy the English army.

The French had knights, peasant foot-soldiers, and a few crossbowmen.
The English had dismounted men-at-arms, archers, and spearmen/pikemen.

The French greatly outnumbered the English, but were less professional. French knights valued individual glory over coordinated strategy, and the hordes of French peasants were poorly trained and equipped. The English had better unity of command under Henry, while the allied nobles commanding parts of the French force were not so obedient to Philip.

Supposedly rain soaked the French (actually Genoese) crossbow strings, reducing their range. It also turned the field to mud, which the French knights had to charge through, traveling somewhat uphill at the prepared English position. The English set the time and place of the battle. They even dug potholes in front of their position to break up the French cavalry charges.

There weren't many major terrain features at Crecy, but the English chose an open field rather than forest so they could maximize the firepower of their archers, and their flanks were somewhat protected by a town and a river or stream.


Also, aerial surveillance could have a huge effect on your battle. I believe it is Tom Clancy's book The Bear and the Dragon that descibes fighting between American and Chinese tanks and infantry, in which the Americans have unmanned aerial vehicles telling them of every move the Chinese make, which ends up making the battle ridiculously easy for the Americans.

That could introduce a good task for some of your heroes. If they can affect the delicate balance of aerial power/reconnaissance, magic abilities, or siege weaponry, it could tip the battle in one sides' favor. I also recommend Heroes of Battle for tips on how to incorporate heroes into epic battles - admittedly it's for D&D adventures, not novels, but still worthwhile I think.

I would also say play around with some miniatures representing the various troops, it might give you some ideas you hadn't thought of.

Only thing I can think of for the amphibious troops is outflanking the other force by crossing a river unexpectedly, or else playing some important role if the battlefield is suddenly flooded... perhaps by a magically summoned rainstorm?

Lastly, please tell me when you publish your book so I can buy it!

[Kcalehc]

Location was mentioned, right in the original post and then clarifed in an edit, but you raise a good point about the weather.

My bad, I probably just forgot about it while reading through the rest of the posts; as no one else mentioned it that I saw. And I dont think time of day was mentioned though, a rising or setting sun in your eyes can be a bugger when making or receiving a charge.

[Renegade Paladin]

I would just like to point out that Tom Clancy, while he writes good intrigue, has no idea how large-scale warfare works, and writes accordingly. The Bear and the Dragon is moderately good as long as you're paying no attention whatsoever to the premises; the instant you do, the whole thing falls apart. I strongly advise against using his books as a model for warfare.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Prepare for a super-long post split into two parts. I won't be answering any of the above posts, just talking about how I would do it if I was in charge of side B.

I believe they have a pretty good chance of winning, if they don't screw up and if side A is led by an at least somewhat overconfident general.

This isn't modern times. Air superiourity doesn't mean jack. Fly up and drop a big rock? What the hell is the point in that except tiring out your own units. The reason air force dominates modern warfare is because a single F-16 fighter/bomber could easily knock out half a dozen tanks, rearm, refuel and come back to kill the rest. There are no guided missiles here which means there isn't much point to using air units with modern tactics.

SO GET THEM NEAR THE GROUND! Do I need to explain how you could make "exploding on death" thing useful? Also, use them to take out any Side A's air units, even if it means sacrificing a large portion of your flyers. This will give you a massive tactical advantage. You'll know everything about side A's movements and can act accordingly, side A won't know jack about your movements except what they can see from the front (which is very little).

Main line - knights (they're dismounted swordsmen equipped like knights I'm assuming?). They make great swordsmen and I'm assuming they can fight for quite a while. Makes them great for holding the line. There is another reason for putting them here - they're the only troops Side B has that can withstand sustained arrow fire for any amount of time.

Put swimmers behind them, since there's no river or lake, you can't use their primary advantage, so just use them to add mass and fill gaps that open up in your line.

Side B's giants are NOT front line fighters. They are easily the best fighters Side B has, but since they're giants and have double-handed weapons... They will be slaughtered by polearms and archers - they carry no shields and make nice, big targets. Also group "above average strength/height" troops that wear no armor with them, to add mass and fill gaps in the line. Mainly because these guys are quite vulnerable from the front but are decent fighters nonetheless.

Small, sneaky troops - this is your reserve. Hide them off to the side where side A won't easily detect them. Don't use them in the beginning. Don't use them for hit and run. Whatever you do, you don't want to spoil the surprise. Side A's generals are cautious so the last thing you want to do is let them know about these troops and take appropriate measures.

I would in fact center my entire strategy around these guys, they're your best chance to win. Put them far off to the left side... So when the battle actually starts, they will be BEHIND the enemy (who will hit your center and right, see Part II). Yep. Easy flanking achieved with no effort to screen your movements.

Now, onto actual tactics. You want to be aggressive. Precisely because side A doesn't expect you to be. Your troops are also qualitatively better (however they are outnumbered). For this reason, you want the battle to be really short because although 1v1 you can outfight Side A, your troops will eventually get tired while side A can rotate fresh ones in.

Enemy missile and siege are also your worst enemy, which is another reason to force melee asap. You don't want them shooting straight at you, you want them to either not shoot at all or to shoot in an arc so they are very inaccurate and risk hitting their own men. Or, even better for you, you want the archers to go for hand-to-hand.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Part II: actual battle.

Alexander's Gaugamela (as the Greeks, obviously), 'nuff said. Copycat his formation, it'll work perfectly, especially since the enemy has absolutely no cavalry or anything remotely mobile to outflank you.

Your main line is made up of knights interspersed with heroes (to add morale), swimmers right behind. Dextrous guys will be behind your left flank. Their job in battle will be to stay back and protect your flank. By the time the enemy has circled your formation, he will likely be out of formation, leading to a bunch of 1v1 or 1vEveryone duels where they will excel.

Behind your right flank put your main flanking force - giants and big, unarmored dudes. They stay put until you're actively engaged and fighting.

Some flyers should be in the air, in scouting and air superiourity roles. You want to know what the enemy is doing and you don't want him to know what you're doing. The rest should be behind your formation, safely out of arrow range. Don't want fireballs in YOUR formation, do you? Keep them until later.

"Hobbits" are well off to the right, hidden. They are, unfortunately, a suicide force. Their main and only targets are the two side A generals. DO NOT use them until the fighting is well on it's way and DO NOT expose them or let the enemy know about them.

Begin the battle. Advance your right and center forward and pull back your left so you create something like an inverted L when your right makes contact with the enemy. The reason for the L is so you don't get outflanked and hit from the rear. Dextrous guys on the inside of the corner are a bit of an added insurance.

Just before you make contact, the fun part comes in. Kamikaze! Yep. Kamikaze all the flyers that were hanging back into side A's main line. You want to get as many pikemen as you can (they're the most dangerous to you), but as long as most of your flyers get through, you'll be OK.

Just make sure to time it right, so your line smashes right after, before side A can regroup.

Now, fight for a bit. You might even push them forward a bit (since your troops are massively higher quality).

Only now do you make use of the flankers. Bring them around the right and hit side A's left. Easy from here, roll up the line from (your) right to left. Done. That alone could possibly rout side A's left. In which case you don't even need to fight the rest of the battle, leave a small rearguard to delay the enemy and go towards the city.

Only after the enemy has started routing or is close to it, use the sneaky guys. Have them hit the enemy's right FROM THE REAR. So they will be surrounded on 3 sides. However, leave them an escape route (à la Marathon), so they don't decide to fight to the death.

You want the enemy to see a clear and easy escape route. After all, they don't know what they're fighting for and they are quite excited about retiring to a country shack at a ripe old age of 45.

[Don Julio Anejo]

A few minor comments, not related to my battle plan.

1. Side B has to attack. Sitting around and defending does nothing to accomplish their objectives since all side A has to do is dig in. No battle is an automatic win for Side A because Side A accomplishes their objectives and keeps all their men, Side B fails their one and only objective.
2. Similarities to 100 Year War are purely superficial. For one, Side B can't be defensive (even tactically) no matter their objectives. They have NO missile troops. Side A has 2,000. Trying to pull of Agincourt without archers is... weird, at best.
3. Side A seems quite Roman in composition, demographics and fighting ability.
4. Siege and archers are only good if your enemy is standing still a fair distance away, otherwise you either lose them as soon as the lines make contact or they do more hurt than good to your own men (any siege that fired in arcs had horrible accuracy - the best you could hope for was aim for a town and hope to hit it).
5. Pikes have to be at the centre to use their main advantage. Their strength is a near impassable spear wall at the front. However, their flanks are extremely vulnerable since the pikes can only face in one direction. Swordsmen easily flank and slaughter them unless protected at the sides. Besides, there's no reason to put them off to the side, there is no cavalry to defend against.
6. Flyers can attempt to kamikaze Side A's generals, since any archery fire will eventually hit Side A's own ranks.

[skywalker]

Hmm, people make good points about the polearms/swords things, and I want to do my best to keep historical inaccuracies to a minimum... even though, since this is a world of our own, history is as I wrote it, still, cool.

Sorry for not mentioning it earlier: Yes, Side A is the local proffesional military, so, they have a lot of money backing them, and "loyalty", since they get a pension if, and only if, they retire at an older age (40-50 area). Also, they live in a nation with fairly good resources as far as metals go. However, i referr to them as the "local toughs" mainy because they're not in any real war - they have the occasional skirmish, but nothing war. So, yes, sorry for the confusion.

And thanks for pointing the percentage problems out, Sky. I'll go fix them up now.

Thanks everyone for help so far. Anything else you have to say would also be V. appreciated.

Edit: Troops have been updated! Make sure to re-check the troop listings of both sides before continuing.

Damn it Felix! My strategy was great until you changed A's percentages.

Now they have a significant quantity of bows, as well as polearms. The advantage of my previous strategy was that it would be impossible for A to use the polearms or bows effectively. That is no longer the case.

You still didn't answer my questions about arrival time, travel time, etc.

My overall concept stands, tho. B should exploit A's caution (read: indecisiveness), A's lack of training, and A's size, which makes them unable to quickly adapt.

Comments about Crecy and Alexander were good. Wisdom from the ancients as regards to my post: An army as large as A cannot communicate effectively without flags. Generals/commanders cannot be spotted without flags. Flags/standards make it easy for troops to see them/get orders, but also makes it very easy for B to find them and kill them. Even if the commanders/generals don't die, loss of flags will be demoralizing for the grunts. Another question, A is engaged in religious slaughter, are there any important icons/symbols around? Those make more juicy targets for B.

I still say use the fliers like assault marines, soften up the archers, pikes (ok, they're equipped with various polearms. This is ambiguous, are they equipped with pikes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)), or something less useful?) and make attempts on the generals/important people.

I disagree with DJA, I think if A are using a "pikes in front" strategy, the the giants are the best front-line option, the knights aren't going to have the reach or the strength to break thru a forest of pikes. I think hitting them hard, before they organize, is the best option. B can capitalize on their speed and adaptability, IMO.

I still think siege is a liability for A. B should be moving fast enough that A will have trouble aiming the siege and then hitting them with it. The problem is that 20 air troops is also a foolish choice. If I were A, and I knew the horde was coming, I would use my pegasus troops to scout the enemy force from the flanks, and then use them as horses for the commanders. So far, no horses at all have been mentioned, so I assume they are otherwise absent. I would keep my horses/wyvern on the ground, tho, until they either rout B, or they break thru towards the capital. If they do breakthru, A can send the flying horses to harass the rear, and to warn the city.

[Don Julio Anejo]

disagree with DJA, I think if A are using a "pikes in front" strategy, the the giants are the best front-line option, the knights aren't going to have the reach or the strength to break thru a forest of pikes.
If A is using "pikes in front strategy," sending giants out in front would be throwing away your single best unit. They may be able to break through the initial line but then they'd get stuck in melee against an opponent that outnumbers them 4000:200. Beyond what little initial damage the giants can do, you have no way of killing the rest of the enemy.

My idea revolves around first disorganizing the pike line (by suiciding flyers into the pike line for a bunch of fireballs) then smashing it with knights right afterwards. But the interesting thing is that I don't have to actually force them forward and get them impaled. All I need them to do is "pin" the pikemen in place so they can't regroup or face in another direction, so all the knights have to do, really, is just stand there and chop at the pikes.

I still get all my killing done with the giants, except this way they're doing more damage by chopping at nice, squishy, undefended flanks.

I think hitting them hard, before they organize, is the best option. B can capitalize on their speed and adaptability, IMO.
No argument there :smile: Especially since you don't have to "win" to win, you just have to punch a hole big enough for most of your army to make it through safely.

[Tensu]

More archers just makes my strategy more valid:smallbiggrin:

[Felixaar]

You still didn't answer my questions about arrival time, travel time, etc.

Ah, sorry about that. Each force has been travelling approximately a week - Side B maybe a bit less - And though they both arrive at the same time, they do not immediately begin battle. Since the battle is North/South facing, Sun in the Eyes is not an issue. The terrain is rather unremakrable.

I like the Kamikaze-Bombing-Of-Commander's idea.

Thanks again to everyone for all your help :smallbiggrin:


Lastly, please tell me when you publish your book so I can buy it!

Ha, of course :smallbiggrin: I'll make a topic obviously, but I'll be sure to PM you (also, you could try bookmarking my website (http://www.felinuanbooks.webs.com)).

[Kcalehc]

Ah, sorry about that. Each force has been travelling approximately a week - Side B maybe a bit less - And though they both arrive at the same time, they do not immediately begin battle. Since the battle is North/South facing, Sun in the Eyes is not an issue. The terrain is rather unremakrable.

Well thats my first few points answered.
So, what about the armies' baggage trains and support troops? Few, if any, armies will travel with out support of some kind; blacksmiths, farriers, cooks, tailors aides de camp, sick-lame-and-lazy and various other hangers on and helpers, plus their supplies. During a battle these'll be behind or off to the side, nicely out of the way of the actual fighting - but with a break through attempt, side B is not going to have their support any longer and they might have to overrun Side A's to get past. While this may be a detail it'd be something worth mentioning in the story, if only to let the reader know that they are safely out of the way and not taking part.

So Side B is trying to 'reach and infiltrate a city to the north and side B is trying to stop them.' Assuming they somehow manage a break through, B will be chased by A all the way to the city and harried at every turn.

The only realistic strategy for side B is to get into melee on a concentrated part of side A's line as soon as possible, force a wedge through and get some troops past while the rest, moving left and right into the humans line, stay and die. Giantlike troops lead the charge, going to have the most momentum when they arrive and their size will help shield other troops from missile fire, followed by the bulk of the force, with the swimmers in a pocket of the larger troops within/behind them. Sneaky troops act as skirmishers, out on the flanks to slow down human flankers and to distract and engage human missile troops. Air troops held in reserve, their mission is to protect teh rear of the break out group once they make it through, and slow down any persuers so they can get away.

Simple and direct, huge casualties (but you said they expect to die, so I've not planned for them to live, just to get a break through), speed is the key, form up and overrun the thinnest part of the enemy line. Haven't bothered with targetting enemy commanders, as they do not form part of the stated goals.

Getting the water-loving troops through would be advantageous in two ways, one - they aren't going to be much good in this fight anyways, and two - if the city has a river (and it most certainly should have some water supply) then they will be best placed to enter it with minimum resistance once they arrive.

[Egiam]

I will admit I did not read this entire thread.

I highly recommend reading up on Hannibal. His tactics would be essential for side B to win. Here is a good DVD (http://www.amazon.com/True-Story-Hannibal/dp/B0016OKQNA/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238000452&sr=1-8).

When outnumbered, fun stuff happens. Try covered pits, simple landmines, Guerrila tactics, Snipers. Maybe pile up dead grass to make a controlable wildfire.

Have the giants hurl jugs of boiling oil at the infantry. Side A scatters, then send in the B side cavalry to clean up the mess, then retreat under archer cover.

This looks pretty cool.

Except one thing.

Your spelling of Mono a Mono hurts my soul. Unless there is something I don't know, I believe you are meaning to say Mano y Mano (Spanish for "hand and hand"). Sorry for seeming like a nitpicking jerk, but for some reason that specific thing drives me nuts.

[Kcalehc]

Your spelling of Mono a Mono hurts my soul. Unless there is something I don't know, I believe you are meaning to say Mano y Mano (Spanish for "hand and hand"). Sorry for seeming like a nitpicking jerk, but for some reason that specific thing drives me nuts.

Mono = greek for one. no?

So "one on one" would be a not unreasonable translation.

[Felixaar]

Yes, I meant One on One. I'm not sure why I choose the phrase it that way...

I like the idea of boiling jugs of oil...

And yes, the city that is their stated goal is on the coastline, so the swimmers will be more useful there... if they get there. I'm not telling y'all who wins :smallamused:

Thanks again to all :smallsmile:

Oh, and as for Side B's supply trains, most of Side B is sort of a tribal facility - so, the warriors are also adept and their own crafts and trades, etc.

I should also point out that Side B is more or less 50/50 female/male troops, whereas Side A is all testosterone. Unfortunately for side B, side A for the most part dont have any trouble with killing women.

[Destichado]

Good grief, side A is pretty screwed. Side B has all the advantages save 1: the number of archers.

First thing I would do with side B is attack the archers with paratroopers. Have you decided on an order of battle yet? Enemy archers will probably be either on the wings or in the rear. Smart deployment is on the wings, but likely deployment is in the rear, and either one will work. Enemy commanders are cautious and haven't been on full scale campaigns, therefore it's likely they don't know what to do with their troops, so any other creative (ie: better) deployment is unlikely.
Straight out of Caesar's Conquest of Gaul -every man grabs the mane of a cavalryman's horse and half runs, half gets carried across the field at a much greater rate than ordinarily possible, and cavalry becomes much more potent than ordinarily possible. Substitute the sneaky guys, half the dextrous guys and the fliers. Fly low above/through the trees around the perimeter of battle and wait (recover) for the main body to advance. 800 skirmishers against 2000 archers? Whatever happens (ie: slaughter) the archers will *not* be shooting at the main body.

The main body forms a column or a narrow flying wedge. Interspersed giants and knights at the fore, knights and strongmen on the sides, acrobats and swimmers in the middle. They'll advance at a walk thanks to the "cavalry" keeping the archers busy, and charge the last hundred yards. Between the superior size, strength and armor and the sheer momentum of the column, army B should punch through army A almost like it wasn't even there.

The only danger is envelopment, and the inexperience of the men and commanders, lack of motivation, lack of fire support and the confusion of a two-prong attack by a numerically inferior foe makes it *highly* unlikely that they'll recover and act quickly enough to do that.

I predict army B victorious, having punched through and gotten clear away, easily within an hour with about 500 losses or so, mostly dead and abandoned wounded; more if the leave behind skirmishers to delay pursuit.
I predict army A shocked, confused and demoralized with between 1200-1500 losses, mostly wounded. Should not be capable of mounting an effective pursuit for about two more hours.

[Tensu]

Good grief, side A is pretty screwed. Side B has all the advantages save 1: the number of archers.

and number of troops as a whole. and they're the defenders.


First thing I would do with side B is attack the archers with paratroopers. and get all your air troops killed. charging the archers is suicide.


Enemy commanders are cautious and haven't been on full scale campaigns, therefore it's likely they don't know what to do with their troops, so any other creative (ie: better) deployment is unlikely.

except of corse that this in a national army, and thus even if the generals haven't seen battle, they have trained in the greatest military acedemies in the world. they won't make any mistakes.


Straight out of Caesar's Conquest of Gaul -every man grabs the mane of a cavalryman's horse and half runs, half gets carried across the field at a much greater rate than ordinarily possible,

that's a great way to get your men killed, seeing as you're effctivly dragging them through brambles.

[/quote] Substitute the sneaky guys, half the dextrous guys and the fliers. Fly low above/through the trees around the perimeter of battle and wait (recover) for the main body to advance. 800 skirmishers against 2000 archers? Whatever happens (ie: slaughter) the archers will *not* be shooting at the main body.[/quote]

their archers outnumber your entire army. the archers will be shooting at everything. the only troops that even stand a chance of surviving that is your knights.

[/quote]The main body forms a column or a narrow flying wedge. Interspersed giants and knights at the fore, knights and strongmen on the sides, acrobats and swimmers in the middle. They'll advance at a walk thanks to the "cavalry" keeping the archers busy, and charge the last hundred yards. Between the superior size, strength and armor and the sheer momentum of the column, army B should punch through army A almost like it wasn't even there.[/quote]

except you know, that everyone but your knights will be dead at this point, where as side A still has all their troops, including enough infintry to bury your knights alive and flying troops your knights won't be able to touch.


The only danger is envelopment, and the inexperience of the men and commanders, lack of motivation, lack of fire support and the confusion of a two-prong attack by a numerically inferior foe makes it *highly* unlikely that they'll recover and act quickly enough to do that.

this is a national army. they've all trained in the best schools the kingdom can afford. they won't panic. they won't break rank. they won't make any mistakes.

[skywalker]

If A is using "pikes in front strategy," sending giants out in front would be throwing away your single best unit. They may be able to break through the initial line but then they'd get stuck in melee against an opponent that outnumbers them 4000:200. Beyond what little initial damage the giants can do, you have no way of killing the rest of the enemy.

I have no disagreement with the logic, I am simply going off of wisdom that's been ingrained in me for quite a while, possibly mistakenly: big swords kill pikes. From what I've learned, when you don't have guns, big swords are your best options for cracking the shell on a pike square. I imagined the giants not getting stuck in. Perhaps I have an unrealistic idea of what a bunch of 8 foot guys carrying appropriately sized greataxes can do to a line of puny humans?


and get all your air troops killed. charging the archers is suicide.

Unless the archers don't look straight up. Also, these guys become meteors upon death, remember?


except of corse that this in a national army, and thus even if the generals haven't seen battle, they have trained in the greatest military acedemies in the world. they won't make any mistakes.

I think all of this is a bit up for debate, we're not entirely sure where they've trained. They are epic level characters, presumably they have seen some battle. But they've already made one mistake, and that was being cautious.


that's a great way to get your men killed, seeing as you're effctivly dragging them through brambles.

Also up for debate. Felix said "bring shoes," not "foot long spiky plants." I also think he intended them to be a bit higher up?


their archers outnumber your entire army. the archers will be shooting at everything. the only troops that even stand a chance of surviving that is your knights.

I'm pretty sure the archers only equal the entire army. Skirmishers decimate archers tho, he's right. You just have to get them close enough. Which, if B moves to capitalize as soon as he can (which was, oddly enough, how Caesar did it...), then the archers may not have the time to group up and mass fire, and will certainly have a reduced amount of time to do it. Also, with flying troops, you eventually cause the problem that every arrow that doesn't hit a bird man, hits an archer.



except you know, that everyone but your knights will be dead at this point, where as side A still has all their troops, including enough infintry to bury your knights alive and flying troops your knights won't be able to touch. This one is based on your assumption that the archers will rape the flyers. Arguing this is easy if the archers aren't shooting at the "wedge."


this is a national army. they've all trained in the best schools the kingdom can afford. they won't panic. they won't break rank. they won't make any mistakes.

I think you're making some serious assumptions here, too. They're the local professional military. Sure, they have some training. But assuming they won't panic? That they won't break rank? And that they won't make any mistakes? They already made one, they left that big cushy city where they were guaranteed victory. And they've never been in a war. Occasional local skirmish is all they've got. Have all 10,000 been involved? I bet not. Some will crack when they see a massive giant with a greataxe barreling towards them. I guarantee the first time a flaming dead bird-man falls out of the sky, more than a few bowmen say "Ah... Screw this, I liked the walls..."

[Egiam]

Mono = greek for one. no?

So "one on one" would be a not unreasonable translation.

Thank you. My inner nerd is appeased. Chimp scholar is appeased. Comprendo.

[Lost Demiurge]

I'd go with Side A, and I'd use siege.

As far as I can see, the enemy's aerial units are the most problematic. They won't carry the day, but they'll be troublesome enough that I want to neutralize them ASAP. So I'll take a leaf from Beliasarius' book.

Here's how I'd open.

I'd have the majority of our forces march out to meet the enemy, not giving them time to entrench or dig in. Officers would march with the lines... No leaving easy command tent targets when there's flyers and skulks around. As we advanced, there'd be light fire from archers in the ranks... Just enough to keep side B's head down, and to weed out incoming fliers. Obviously, we're holding arrows in reserve for later.

Meanwhile, I'd set some catapults up on a fairly exposed position back and on the flank, with only a couple of ragged peasant militia companies up there to guard them. The catapults would start long range bombardment, before the two main lines meet.

Any smart general is gonna send their most mobile units to take out the artillery. The skulks can't get over there fast enough, but the fliers would be good. Besides, they'd be wasted attacking the main force, so this would be a perfect mission for them.

Of course, aerial bombardment isn't going to do jack. Even with firepots. These are siege-trained crews we've got here, they've hardened and soaked down the catapults, and are on hand to douse them if they get ignited.

So, the fliers are going to have to land and swarm if they want to take out (or capture, there's a thought...) the catapults.

The siege crew puts up a fight, but falls back in good order. The peasant militia groups start over to engage, but stop in confusion once the first flier pops. They don't want to die! They mill and lose momentum, falling back out of harm's way. The fliers drive off the siege crew, cheer, and either start breaking catapults or start turning them to shell side A's lines...

At which point, the peasant companies pull out their bows, reveal that they're the bulk of side A's archers wearing peasant rags, and start dropping arrows down into the currently-grounded fliers.

These things explode when they die, but don't have any listed immunity to the explosions of their peers. This close together, the archers only have to hit a few to take out several. The fliers would have to take off under a withering hail of arrows to get away, any attempts to charge the archers will be made under a severe disadvantage, and the siege crew can lend some blocking support if need be.

Might not kill all the fliers, but it'll reduce them down to a non-factor in the coming massacre, I imagine. All at the cost of some light casualties and a few catapults that I didn't really need to win this one anyway.

[Tensu]

Unless the archers don't look straight up. Also, these guys become meteors upon death, remember?

Side A has flying units available to it. thus we could assume that flying units are fairly standard in warfare here. and they don't "become meteors" upon death: They explode. possibly killing any allies nearby. causing them to explode. if the flying units attack together, they can all be killed by a single arrow. and if they're spread apart that limits the effectiveness of their attacks.


I think all of this is a bit up for debate, we're not entirely sure where they've trained. They are epic level characters, presumably they have seen some battle. But they've already made one mistake, and that was being cautious.

He said they've all been trained and equipped as best the kingdom can afford, and for crying out loud people caution is almost never a mistake in war. look back into history and see how many times being reckless cost victory. then think back to how many times being cautious did. Being cautious by they very definition of the word means they won't make any mistakes.


Also up for debate. Felix said "bring shoes," not "foot long spiky plants." I also think he intended them to be a bit higher up?

I guess that's true. However, this "grabbing onto their manes" thing doesn't sound practical, as it would require the man to run really fast and seriously hurt the horse, causing bucking, as well as creating drag. Where did you hear about this? Sounds more like legend than a tactic actually used.


I'm pretty sure the archers only equal the entire army. Skirmishers decimate archers tho, he's right. You just have to get them close enough. Which, if B moves to capitalize as soon as he can (which was, oddly enough, how Caesar did it...), then the archers may not have the time to group up and mass fire, and will certainly have a reduced amount of time to do it. Also, with flying troops, you eventually cause the problem that every arrow that doesn't hit a bird man, hits an archer.

20% of 10,000 is 2,000. the enemy has 1,200 men and women. they are outnumbered by 800 against the archers alone. IF and this is a huge if, by some freak gust of wind or something these skirmishers manage to survive a rain of arrows, they'll still be buried alive by infantry long before they get to the archers.


This one is based on your assumption that the archers will rape the flyers. Arguing this is easy if the archers aren't shooting at the "wedge."

I did forget there for a moment that the flyers where also the enemie's archers, but since there's only 400 of them if we go man-for-man I'll still outnumber them by 400 archers alone. and since the flyers are top-priority targets, they'll get buried in arrows before they can do much anyway.


I think you're making some serious assumptions here, too. They're the local professional military. Sure, they have some training. But assuming they won't panic? That they won't break rank? And that they won't make any mistakes? They already made one, they left that big cushy city where they were guaranteed victory. And they've never been in a war. Occasional local skirmish is all they've got. Have all 10,000 been involved? I bet not. Some will crack when they see a massive giant with a greataxe barreling towards them. I guarantee the first time a flaming dead bird-man falls out of the sky, more than a few bowmen say "Ah... Screw this, I liked the walls..."

Again, they are the military for the kingdom. and have been given the best training and equipment the kingdom can afford. also, while seeing a giant might be scary in our world, in this world it's a lot more normal. and last time I checked the "giants" where only one foot taller than the average human, so they're less "hulking monstrosity" and more "easier archer target". and I'm pretty sure seeing an enemy explode when you kill them would boost morale, not lower it. Besides, he said they where highly motivated by an excellent retirement plan and of course the fact they're protecting their home ground. In the civil war the Union had a much harder time with desertion because the Confederates feared for their families. All information given suggests that the troops will not panic or break formation. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

as for staying in the city, that would just be letting the barbarians roam around pillaging the countryside unopposed. It wasn't a mistake: it was done to keep them from running amok.

Yes, I know Hannibal wanted the Romans to leave their cities and fight him, but the difference here is that Hannibal had a lot more men and wasn't outnumbered by archers alone. the Romans used primarily melee troops that could really inly fire once each with their pilum. In this case the barbarians would want to avoid combat.

[Destichado]

<snip to cut out nothing but asinine excrement>
this is a national army. they've all trained in the best schools the kingdom can afford. they won't panic. they won't break rank. they won't make any mistakes.
That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever read regarding military matters. ANY army can break, under the right circumstances. ALL armies make mistakes, regardless of the circumstances.
The quality of an army is exactly equal to the experience of its commissioned and non-commissioned officer corps, which in this case is ZERO. They may be personally brave but they haven't a clue what they're getting into, which means they will do nothing BUT make mistakes. Mistakes which will be amplified by their inexperience and perceived by their men as uncertainty and fear, which will turn setback into rout.


There are three ways to deal with archers historically, only one of which is applicable here. You can outrange them, you can hide from them, or you can charge them. Archers engaged in melee are no longer archers, and they're *normally*, though not always, absurdly easy to kill compared men-at-arms. That's good, because in this case, A *must* charge B's archers.

People who already know where their enemy is rarely look for him to appear elsewhere. The last thing any army expects is an attack from the rear, most especially when your enemy is already advancing to the fore. People who are not looking for you are not shooting at you.

Something very similar to this scenario happened in real life. In 390 BC when Brennus's undisciplined tribal giants defeated six "trained" legions and sacked Rome.

You may run a very pretty wargame, but you haven't the foggiest idea how war was fought then or is fought now, so as the Germans say, "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen". In other words, shut the heck up and leave this to the professionals.

[Felixaar]

Hey, now, no one get nasty. I love that you guys are helping me out and I encourage discussion, but no calls about other's intelligence.

"Yo Mama" jokes are fine, though.

Also: Have now completed by battle plan, so, a BIG THANKYOU!!! to everyone who offered advice.

Sorry, no, I won't be sharing the full plan here. The book should be published in a year or two so if you would like me to notify you when it becomes available, please state so either here or in PM. Alternatively you can just keep an eye on my website (http://www.felinuanbooks.webs.com).

Feel free to keep discussing things - I'll still read it and if anyone comes up with neat ideas will try to incorporate them, but, don't feel like, obligated.

and once again, THANKS EVERYONE!

I might be back again to pick your brains in a few months :smallbiggrin:

[Tensu]

That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever read regarding military matters. ANY army can break, under the right circumstances. ALL armies make mistakes, regardless of the circumstances.
The quality of an army is exactly equal to the experience of its commissioned and non-commissioned officer corps, which in this case is ZERO. They may be personally brave but they haven't a clue what they're getting into, which means they will do nothing BUT make mistakes. Mistakes which will be amplified by their inexperience and perceived by their men as uncertainty and fear, which will turn setback into rout.

except that that isn't true. In addition to years of combat training, the troops have lots of experiance skirmishing. pay attention. Also, years of combat training isn't something to sneer at. Yes, real fighting is different, but you talk like training doesn't even make a difference. it does, otherwise we wouldn't train our men.


There are three ways to deal with archers historically, only one of which is applicable here. You can outrange them, you can hide from them, or you can charge them. Archers engaged in melee are no longer archers, and they're *normally*, though not always, absurdly easy to kill compared men-at-arms. That's good, because in this case, A *must* charge B's archers.

They'll never make it. they have no cover, and I don't remember any calvery being mentioned (does knights mean mounted knights or man-at-arms knights?) they'll be dead before they reach the archers.


People who already know where their enemy is rarely look for him to appear elsewhere. The last thing any army expects is an attack from the rear, most especially when your enemy is already advancing to the fore. People who are not looking for you are not shooting at you.

except that in this world flying troops are the norm. they would be on the lookout for exactly this kind of shenanigan.


Something very similar to this scenario happened in real life. In 390 BC when Brennus's undisciplined tribal giants defeated six "trained" legions and sacked Rome.

except you know, that brennus had the same number of men as the romans, the romans had no archers, and when brennus tried what you tried, he took extreme losses and had to fall back and try something else.


You may run a very pretty wargame, but you haven't the foggiest idea how war was fought then or is fought now, so as the Germans say, "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen". In other words, shut the heck up and leave this to the professionals.

this is funny considering how many mistakes you've made.

Let's look at everyone who's beaten the Romans. We have Hannibal, Sparticus, and the various Germanic tribes. Hannibal won by forcing the Romans to fight on inoppurtune terrain, making insane logistical decisions, and boxing the romans in like Sardines. Sparticus and the Germans won by using guerilla tactics and in the German's case crude, easy to build fortifications. I don't think anybody has ever beaten the Romans by charging headfirst into their ranks. that's suicide. and the romans didn't use near that many archers. everything was legionaries with them. with all those archers picking off anyone brave or foolish enough to be caught in the open, charging is even less practical. the only way side B has a chance with any degree of believability is to avoid direct confrontation, try to maneuver around the troops, and attack only if and when the enemy splits up looking for them.

[Starshade]

I would as side A, put all 3 epic characters on Pegai and General on Wyvern, hide them, and try to charge side B's fliers in a ambush, going for close range sword/polearm charge in close combat.