Gestalt and level adjustment

[quick_comment]

How would you handle playing a monster race with gestalt? Im starting up a midlevel arena on rpol, and I cant decide how to handle it. Making LA take up only one side of the gestalt is too powerful (since you still get a HD, BAB, saves, etc for that level), but making it take up both sides I think is too weak.

I was thinking of making it take up both sides, but for LA/2 levels. What do you think?

[kamikasei]

LA is inconsistent enough that I'd recommend taking it on an individual basis. Some +1 LA templates and/or races could happily be counted on one side of a progression. Options:

- LA and RHD both have to be taken on both sides of the progression (seems excessive).
- RHD is treated as a racial class and need only be taken on one side, but LA has to be taken on both.
- As above, but LA is split across both. (Optionally, you could make the amount of the split up to the player.)
- LA and RHD can both be taken on a single side of the progression, allowing you to play a monster race with a full 20 levels of classes on the other side.

I would play with a mix of the third and fourth options, depending on the specific source of the LA.

[Paramour Pink]

All the DMs I've seen that use Gestalt rules expect powerful characters to begin with, so it's often placed only on one side. That said, I have no idea what the official ruling (if there is one) might be. So, just ask the DM. :smallsmile:

[quick_comment]

All the DMs I've seen that use Gestalt rules expect powerful characters to begin with, so it's often placed only on one side. That said, I have no idea what the official ruling (if there is one) might be. So, just ask the DM. :smallsmile:

I AM the DM. :smallsmile:

[playswithfire]

There are a couple options:
LA and RHD both on the same side and only on one side
LA on one side, RHD on the other side, so a 3 LA, 4 HD creature would start with:
HD//LA
HD//LA
HD//LA
HD//first class level

Spread both across both sides, so a 3 LA, 4 HD creature would start with
LA//LA
LA//HD
HD//HD
HD//first class level

My personal preference is for the last method, but that's just me

[wadledo]

Gestalt is supposed to be absurdly powerful.

[Chronos]

Racial HD work exactly like class levels in regular play, so I see no reason not to treat them as class levels in gestalt, too. LA, though, presents problems: The whole reason that LA exists in the first place is that certain abilities aren't supposed to be available before certain levels. Yes, a gestalt character has more abilities than a normal character of the same level, but not more powerful abilities. But if you treat LA like class levels, then you can end up exceeding normal power levels.

Consider, for instance, the sylph (MM II). She casts as a sorcerer with level equal to her RHD + 4, and can advance by RHD (Outsider, incidentally, with all the benefits outsider RHD give). But sylphs have an LA of +5. So in a normal game, you could play a sylph, and at ECL 6, you'd be able to cast like a 5th-level sorcerer. That doesn't break the game.

But now suppose that you're playing in a gestalt game, and you're allowed to just put the LA on one side of the progression. Now you could put 6 RHD of sylph on one side of the progression, and 5 LA and one class level of whatever on the other side, and you're an ECL 6 character that casts spells like a 10th-level sorcerer. That does break the game, since normally nobody, even in a gestalt game, could cast 5th-level spells at ECL 6.3

Because of this, I would recommend that you count LA on both sides of a progression, or at the very least, require that it be on the same side as any RHD.

[quick_comment]

Racial HD work exactly like class levels in regular play, so I see no reason not to treat them as class levels in gestalt, too. LA, though, presents problems: The whole reason that LA exists in the first place is that certain abilities aren't supposed to be available before certain levels. Yes, a gestalt character has more abilities than a normal character of the same level, but not more powerful abilities. But if you treat LA like class levels, then you can end up exceeding normal power levels.

Consider, for instance, the sylph (MM II). She casts as a sorcerer with level equal to her RHD + 4, and can advance by RHD (Outsider, incidentally, with all the benefits outsider RHD give). But sylphs have an LA of +5. So in a normal game, you could play a sylph, and at ECL 6, you'd be able to cast like a 5th-level sorcerer. That doesn't break the game.

But now suppose that you're playing in a gestalt game, and you're allowed to just put the LA on one side of the progression. Now you could put 6 RHD of sylph on one side of the progression, and 5 LA and one class level of whatever on the other side, and you're an ECL 6 character that casts spells like a 10th-level sorcerer. That does break the game, since normally nobody, even in a gestalt game, could cast 5th-level spells at ECL 6.3

Because of this, I would recommend that you count LA on both sides of a progression, or at the very least, require that it be on the same side as any RHD.

This is exactly my concern. Additionally, allowing LA on only one side removes most of the problems with LA - you get BAB, you get HD, you get spellcasting progression etc. Putting it on both sides though makes LA even worse than usual, which might not be a bad thing, but id rather not do that.

I think ive come up with a ruling - LA goes on both sides of your progression, but for LA/2 levels. If you have half an LA over, it goes on the same side as your racial HD. So you still lose as many abilities as you ought to, but you dont completely screw over your character. I suspect this rule will result in nearly everyone running around with a +1 LA race or template, but w/e.

[Ernir]

I see LA and RHD as being the supposed equivalent of a class level, so I would make them count on one side of the Gestalt only. The racial abilities of a Level Adjusted race can't compete with the power of two combined character levels, can they? :smallfrown:
This does make LA hurt a lot less in a Gestalt game. And for the most part I think that is fine. Allows people to play non-awful casters of LA-ed races and such.

In the case of things like the Sylph... I might hotfix it by making its LA still count against its HD-dependent abilities.
If I allowed it in the first place. If DMing for a Gestalt game, I would reserve the right to review the LA-ed races the players want to pick and let them in on a case-by-case basis.


On a side note - I would definitely not allow LA buyoff with the LA on only one side.

[Epinephrine]

We apply LA on both sides. The benefits of some LA races can be capitalised on by both sides of a gestalt, and having full levels with some races is too much.

[RebelRogue]

But now suppose that you're playing in a gestalt game, and you're allowed to just put the LA on one side of the progression. Now you could put 6 RHD of sylph on one side of the progression, and 5 LA and one class level of whatever on the other side, and you're an ECL 6 character that casts spells like a 10th-level sorcerer. That does break the game, since normally nobody, even in a gestalt game, could cast 5th-level spells at ECL 6.3
I just rule that you must take all your racial HD/LA on one side of the progression before you can add any other levels. And no matter what, I cap class features (such as casting or Feats that make certain class levels stack) at ECL.

[monty]

I just rule that you must take all your racial HD/LA on one side of the progression before you can add any other levels. And no matter what, I cap class features (such as casting or Feats that make certain class levels stack) at ECL.

That's still breakable, though. In this case, you could take RHD 3 / LA 5 // Whatever 3 / Sorcerer 5 and still come out way ahead.

[Typewriter]

I do it like playswithfire mentioned first:

LA on one side, RHD on the other side, so a 3 LA, 4 HD creature would start with:
HD//LA
HD//LA
HD//LA
HD//first class level

with the side rule that caster level cannot exceed character level. Does Sylph go off of racial hit dice, or total hit dice? That's important here. If it's racial, then I would allow people to skip levels of Sorc, until their total HD equalled what their Sorc caster level should be. Then they can get the full benefit of it, but only then, and after they would have to keep takign racial HD, or take levels of Sorc to advance.

I've found that doing it the above mentioned way is broken(what I was going for), but can be kept withing the boundaries of normality with a little bit of management.

[kamikasei]

That's still breakable, though.

It's gestalt. Basic, twenty-level base classes with no frills can break when used with it. Anything fancy that tries to use tricks like LA to balance itself against single-progression classes will need case-by-case adjudication. The variance in possible effectiveness (just Fighter//Barbarian vs. Wizard//Archivist, without even getting in to careful use of PrCs) is so great that while you could propose a unified set of rules, it would lead to far more unbalance than just saying "use best judgement, with an eye to balance".

So in other words, if a race grants sorcerer casting, don't let someone take sorceror on the other side. That doesn't need to be a general rule, just common sense. (A general rule like "don't let anyone get an ability higher than their ECL" does apply here, though.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The variance in possible effectiveness (just Fighter//Barbarian vs. Wizard//Archivist, without even getting in to careful use of PrCs) is so great that while you could propose a unified set of rules, it would lead to far more unbalance than just saying "use best judgement, with an eye to balance".And that's not even getting into builds like Wizard//Factotum, which blow even dual-casters out of the water long before PrCs are even brought into it.

[RebelRogue]

That's still breakable, though. In this case, you could take RHD 3 / LA 5 // Whatever 3 / Sorcerer 5 and still come out way ahead.
My capping rule would take care of that. It's still good, I agree...

[Chronos]

Does Sylph go off of racial hit dice, or total hit dice? That's important here.RHD, but they're outsider RHD, which are almost good enough to be a base class by themselves (certainly far better than sorcerer levels, if you're getting casting from them), and a sylph can advance by RHD up to something like 11 HD.

[Zincorium]

RHD, but they're outsider RHD, which are almost good enough to be a base class by themselves (certainly far better than sorcerer levels, if you're getting casting from them), and a sylph can advance by RHD up to something like 11 HD.

Since when has the DM of your game allowed *players* to decide to advance racial hit dice? That shouldn't even come up in conversation.


Races that are too good, or too terrible, for their level adjustment should be modified. This is doubly true in gestalt. DMs and players need to talk about the power level, and the DM should reserve the right to alter it, at creation or, worst case, post-facto in light of new developements. This solves most problems.