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View Full Version : Starting out a rogue build. Is Mobility Worth it?



NekoJoker
2009-03-23, 10:03 AM
Hi there. I'm kind of new to this forum, but i hope u guys can help me out. I'm starting a new campaign with a friend of mine and i'll be playing a rouge. I'm doing a Rogue 1/Barbarian 2 (starting lvl 3) build (i know ppl say it's not the greates build but i still like it ^^) and plan to move around the battlefield to deal sneak atack damage while flanking. My Question is: is mobility (and therefore Spring attack) worth it? since i'll be having a good deal of ranks spent on tumble i'm having second thoughts about mobility. If anyone can help me, that'd be awesome

One last thing; about race, I'm playing a dwarf with the Quick trait to help his mobility.
Advice on Flaws would be appreciated too.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-23, 10:36 AM
My Question is: is mobility (and therefore Spring attack) worth it?
Not particularly.

When you get to higher levels, you'll want to land your multiple attacks, and spring attack doesn't let you. Also, it costs way too much feats (with the exceedingly crappy Dodge as the first) which are better spent elsewhere.

monty
2009-03-23, 11:00 AM
It's really only worth it if you're dipping Shadowdancer (and then only because it's a prerequisite), which by the look of your build you probably aren't.

Telonius
2009-03-23, 11:28 AM
It's also worth it if you're taking the Elusive Target feat from CWar, but I can't think of many other uses.

Samb
2009-03-23, 01:10 PM
Dodge and mobility are not worth it but I personally think spring attack is. Unless your DM is an idiot you will draw the NPC's attention after you hit it for 20d6 of SA damage on a full attack. Then he gets a full attack and will most likily take a good chunck out of you. If you thnk you might not survive a full attack from the BBEG then spent attack is your best friend.

If your DM is an idiot and ignores the lightly clad rogue then no this whole series of feats suck since your are fightng someone without a basic concept of offense.

The whole point of spring attack is to hit the target with one good blowand move away so they can't do a full attack on you. It is a defensive move not an offensve one. Spring attack could be a viable offensive options if you were playing with ToB moves or if you invest in some specifc feats (dual strike, bounding assualt, rapid blitz) but in general it takes a lot of work.

It depends ok your DM but you could have somene use psychic reformation to get rid of dodge and mobility so all you have is spring attack. I don't quite know the rule on what happens if you lose the preq feats but my DM allows it since feats are so precious and obselete feats hurt (get rid of improved TWF once you get greater TWF).

Fishy
2009-03-23, 01:19 PM
There's also Elocator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm), which is a barrel of laughs.

But in short, Dodge and Mobility are:
1) Fixed bonuses. They don't get better as you level, unlike Power Attack.
2) Situational bonuses. Dodge can only be used if you outnumber the enemy, Mobility is can only be used when you have to make 5 tumble checks in a row and fail one. Power Attack and Quicken Spell are useful in every single battle.
3) Numerical bonuses. They don't give you new and exciting things to do, they don't expand your character's options. Compare with Track or Two Weapon Fighting or Craft Wondrous Item.

In a word, they just aren't that good.

Flaws aside, a Dwarven Rogue will get seven feats in his entire lifetime. Spring Attack is nice, but it would have to be awe-inspiring wonderful to justify spending almost half of your feats to get it.

If you can find a way to get a fly speed (Dragonborn of Bahamut, from Races of the Dragon), and instead take Fly By Attack, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) that's a little easier to stomach.

Alternatively, there's Expeditious Dodge and Desert Wind Dodge which are slightly less of a complete waste of time, and count as Dodge for prerequisite purposes. Can't think of a replacement for Mobility, though.

Flaws: Take them. Exchange a flaw that gives you a fixed, numerical penalty for a feat that scales and grants options. If your DM lets you take 2, take 2. If your DM lets you take 20, take 20. They're very nice.

EDIT @Samb: RAW, lose the prerequisite, lose the ability to use the feat. So, no.

ericgrau
2009-03-23, 01:42 PM
Like you said, because of tumble mobility isn't worth as much. But tumbling happens at half speed while mobility happens at full speed, so it might help. Especially if you have trouble making the tumble DCs. But remember this'll get easier as you level.

Most decent feats in core provide a fixed bonus. This is a completely irrelevant matter. Those that don't instead offer a trade-off and thus don't actually scale with level. Power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339), for example, gets worse as you level because your base damage is increasing and you're sacrificing a fixed (or increasing) percentage of this damage to misses. The net gain after you remember the AB penalty is small. Unless you use cheese to auto-hit monster AC (which rises a little faster than CR, btw), or cheese to raise the damage to brokenationville without paying more AB, or a special situation arises.

The real issue at hand is that dodge & mobility provide AC against many enemy attacks whereas, say, weapon focus provides AB to all your attacks. On average dodge gives a 10% miss chance, which isn't shabby at all, but you should get other feats like weapon focus first. Especially as a mid BAB rogue. And, yes, AC is relevant at all levels if you know just a small amount of AC optimization. The rumor comes from those who don't. Go to the 3.5 archives at www.wizards.com for tips. It's easy and dirt cheap to raise your AC as fast or faster than your level/AB.

John Campbell
2009-03-23, 01:58 PM
Like you said, because of tumble mobility isn't worth as much. But tumbling happens at half speed while mobility happens at full speed, so it might help. Especially if you have trouble making the tumble DCs. But remember this'll get easier as you level.
Tumble can happen at full speed, too. The DC is just higher. A mid-level Rogue shouldn't have any trouble making the DCs. And raising Tumble just takes skill points, which Rogues get almost enough of, while getting Mobility requires significant expenditure of precious, precious feat slots.

eta: Oh, another possibility, that my Fighter/Urban Ranger/Rogue has been using to some success: Acquire some form of concealment-on-demand (blurring armor is nice) and Hide as part of your move. They can't AoO you if they can't see you.

e(again)ta: This gives you your sneak attack, too, even if your allies aren't cooperating with getting you that flank.

Zherog
2009-03-23, 02:03 PM
Dodge can only be used if you outnumber the enemy, Mobility is can only be used when you have to make 5 tumble checks in a row and fail one.

I'm not sure where you got either of these.

Dodge can be used even if you're fighting a single opponent. You pick one opponent and get a +1 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent until you opt to change targets.

Mobility gives you a +4 dodge bonus to AC vs attacks of opportunity caused by movement. It has nothing to do with how many checks you've made.

Do they suck? Yep. But they don't suck for the reasons you mentioned here. (they do suck for a lot of the reasons you mentioned later, like never improving as you increase in level.)


Like you said, because of tumble mobility isn't worth as much. But tumbling happens at half speed while mobility happens at full speed, so it might help. Especially if you have trouble making the tumble DCs. But remember this'll get easier as you level.

Note that you can Tumble at full speed by taking a -10 on your check (or increasing the DC by 10, effectively the same thing).

This is one spot where Mobility might be useful. If you need to move at full speed and can't yet make the DC 25 Tumble check to move past a foe, a +5 to you AC (assuming you name the foe as your dodge target) can be quite useful. Especially since your low enough level at that point that a +5 to AC is a really big bonus.

monty
2009-03-23, 03:28 PM
Also, I don't have the book with me at the moment, but isn't there a stance in ToB that allows you to move at full speed while tumbling, as well as some other stuff?

Chronos
2009-03-23, 05:33 PM
And raising Tumble just takes skill points, which Rogues get almost enough of, while getting Mobility requires significant expenditure of precious, precious feat slots.That depends on what sources are allowed. In Core, there just aren't very many good feats available for rogues, and no practical means of getting Hide in Plain Sight other than Shadowdancer, so in a core-only game, yeah, I probably would get the feats and the Shadowdancer dip. If all sources are allowed, then there are more than enough good feats available that you don't want to waste any, but then again, an all-sources rogue build shouldn't have any rogue levels in it to begin with. For anything in between core and all-sources, it depends on what's available.

One other point to remember about Tumble: You don't have to tumble for your entire movement. You can Tumble through the threatened spaces, and then go back to normal walking (actually, hustling) at full speed for those portions of your move that aren't through threatened spaces.

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 05:45 PM
Yeah, Mobility isn't worth it except as a prerequisite. Not only are there better means to avoid AoOs, but Mobility doesn't actually prevent them, just increases your AC against them. As a Rogue, your AC will be mediocre anyways meaning that Mobility doesn't actually give you any sort of foolproof cover vs. AoOs.

I also disagree with the notion that Spring Attack would be worth it. If you want to avoid being there for full attacking, use ranged weapons. You get one attack anyways, but with a ranged weapon like Wand of Scorching Ray (or the backup Wand of Acid Splash, since you're mostly dealing damage through SA anyways, and those Wands are dirt cheap), you can do a Touch Attack instead. Rapid Shot would allow full attack, of course, but that would require two of your precious feats.

With the way feats are handled, you could pick Flyby Attack and be able to use it whenever you're flying (which is basically always with your magical help) to a much greater effect, allowing you to use Wands or ranged attacks or make that one melee attack while moving. No prerequisites too. But that said, you'd still miss out on Shadowdancer without Mobility, which is definitely worth a 1-level dip in Core.

Zherog
2009-03-23, 07:02 PM
I also disagree with the notion that Spring Attack would be worth it. If you want to avoid being there for full attacking, use ranged weapons. You get one attack anyways, but with a ranged weapon like Wand of Scorching Ray (or the backup Wand of Acid Splash, since you're mostly dealing damage through SA anyways, and those Wands are dirt cheap), you can do a Touch Attack instead. Rapid Shot would allow full attack, of course, but that would require two of your precious feats.

I'm not saying Spring Attack is worth it, but... The biggest difference between it and the ranged attacks you're suggesting is that with Spring Attack, you can get into a flanking position to guarantee your sneak attack; with a ranged attack, you'll need to find some way to deny your target its Dex to AC, since you won't be able to flank.

Samb
2009-03-23, 07:04 PM
Do what my table does and houserule it as free feats that a rogue gets. WotC really messed up when they thought this series would be useful. Lvl 1 dodge as a bonus feat, lvl 2 mobility, lvl 3 spring attack and you still all your feats for TWF and the like, while also qualifying for shadowdancer and elocater, both nice dip classes for rogues (scorn earth=never have to do a climb of swim check and Hide in plain sight from SD).

Curmudgeon
2009-03-23, 07:49 PM
Don't ever take the Mobility feat. As a feat it's a very poor investment for Rogues, who can get a superior benefit from having a good Tumble skill. As prerequisites, Dodge and Mobility (two feats) are still too expensive to justify them for pretty much anything; feats are precious for Rogues. I would recommend going for Spring Attack only if you also take a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer for Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. Together you'll be able to Spring into melee attack position, Hide while right next to the enemy, sneak attack, then Spring away and Hide again. It's the (nearly) guaranteed sneak attack damage, with no reprisals, that makes the payoff for the investment. Spring Attack alone is not sufficient.

So: if you never take the Mobility feat, how do you make these prerequisites? You can instead buy Mobility for your armor; it's a +1 enhancement cost ability. If you're worried about pushing up the total cost of armor at higher levels, remember that you can also add non-numerical enhancements to Bracers of Armor (rules in Arms and Equipment Guide). So boost your regular armor, then get +1 (the minimum) Bracers of Armor with Mobility added. That's a fixed cost of 4,000 gp to get an item granting the feat -- a reasonable price.

trehek
2009-03-23, 08:24 PM
If all sources are allowed, then there are more than enough good feats available that you don't want to waste any, but then again, an all-sources rogue build shouldn't have any rogue levels in it to begin with.

No rogue levels? What would you take then? I mean, rogue does have the nice skill points + sneak dice along with nice specials later on.

Zherog
2009-03-23, 10:07 PM
So: if you never take the Mobility feat, how do you make these prerequisites? You can instead buy Mobility for your armor; it's a +1 enhancement cost ability.

Source, please?

Chronos
2009-03-23, 10:07 PM
No rogue levels? What would you take then? I mean, rogue does have the nice skill points + sneak dice along with nice specials later on.Factotum, or Psychic Rogue, or Beguiler, or any of a number of other classes. Class dips work well enough in skillmonkey builds that you can pretty much construct an entire build out of nothing but dips.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-23, 10:16 PM
Source, please?
It sounds familiar so I think MIC.

NekoJoker
2009-03-23, 10:16 PM
thank you guys for all the quick responses all your advice is really useful. Now I know that mobility won't really be useful in mid to upper levels so i will go ahead and rebuild a few things. Now. as PrC go, I was thinking about going for Nightsong enforcer since i would like to engage in melee and flank the opponent, but the enforcer does not grant many great bonuses until Lvl 5when you get Flanking Teamwork (of course the reduction to armor penalty from agility trining is useful but somehow it seems... well, mediocre) On the other hand we get the Nightsong Infiltrator, which gains a ton of skillpoints, a ton of abilities... but no Sneak attack damage, which is kindda sad.
I am currently torn between this two options (and pondering about the Dread Commando from Heroes of Battle).
What do you think would be a good PrC for a rogue that relies primarily on flanking to deal massive damage?
Btw: About the books, i'd rather stay away from Tome of Battle, the mechanics and stances are cool and all, but just too lenghty and complicated to use right now at my game.

Any information will be dearly appreciated. thx guys

Samb
2009-03-23, 10:17 PM
I just started playing around with elusive target on my houseruled swashbuckler and one of the preqs is dodge and mobility. Elusive target is almost like a dominate where you have your flanking opponents attack eachother.

Dodge to spring attack series is the key for so many PrC and other feats that are good for rogues. For a job that needs so many feats to work right why did WotC have to make them preqs for everything rogue would ever want?

Loki~
2009-03-23, 10:29 PM
It sounds familiar so I think MIC.


Sry, but......whats MIC????

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 10:30 PM
Any information will be dearly appreciated. thx guys

A Rogue doesn't really need a PrC. No PrC is a straight "improvement" upon Rogue: nothing gets 8+Int skills from such a list and advances Sneak Attack at the rate a Rogue does. Rogue also gets those handy, handy special abilities later on.

Nightsong Enforcer is decent, but unfortunately only has 4+Int skills, slow Sneak Attack advancement and the worthwhile abilities are actually quite far into the class. Spymaster is a fun Rogue PrC from the same book and would probably be something I'd personally consider.


Sry, but......whats MIC????

Magic Item Compendium.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-24, 02:04 AM
Source, please? The original source was the Armor of Mobility in Draconomicon, from which the feat-granting property was easily reverse-engineered. It's been reprinted as a stand-alone property in Magic Item Compendium (at the same +1 cost).

Telonius
2009-03-24, 08:50 AM
I just started playing around with elusive target on my houseruled swashbuckler and one of the preqs is dodge and mobility. Elusive target is almost like a dominate where you have your flanking opponents attack eachother.

Just one of the three things it does. The best of them is the "Negate Power Attack" ability. For a squishy Rogue, it's almost worth the three-feat investment.

Zherog
2009-03-24, 09:00 AM
The original source was the Armor of Mobility in Draconomicon, from which the feat-granting property was easily reverse-engineered. It's been reprinted as a stand-alone property in Magic Item Compendium (at the same +1 cost).

I have both books, but don't recall it. Thanks.

RebelRogue
2009-03-24, 09:52 AM
3) Numerical bonuses. They don't give you new and exciting things to do, they don't expand your character's options. Compare with Track or Two Weapon Fighting or Craft Wondrous Item.
You do realize that the only thing TWF provides is numerical bonuses, right? :smalltongue:

(Well, that's not totally true: it allows you to draw two weapons when you would otherwise draw one and it's a prereq for better TWF Feats, but still).

To the OP: To a character without Tumble as a class skill and without the Prereq of Dodge it would be on the lower end of "ok". But no, it really is a bad choice for a rogue to waste two Feats on if you can avoid it.

monty
2009-03-24, 10:26 AM
You do realize that the only thing TWF provides is numerical bonuses, right? :smalltongue:

True, but what it does is make viable a combat style that would otherwise be terrible (because the difference in penalties is so significant).

Person_Man
2009-03-24, 10:40 AM
No.

The DC to Tumble without provoking an Attack of Opportunity is 15. You can reasonably hit that DC at 3rd level. Thus it will be rare that you would ever use Mobility.

In general, strong feats grant bonuses that scale well (such as Power Attack, Craven, anything that multiplies damage, anything that provides an extra attack) and/or provide an ability that you can't get cheaply with a spell or magic item (such as Shock Trooper, Staggering Strike, Travel Devotion). Weak feats provide minor static bonuses (Weapon Focus, Mobility, Toughness). Metamagic is pretty much in a category by itself, as there are various weird combos that revolve around your spell selection a particular class choice.

If a strong feat (like Improved Trip) requires a weak feat (like Combat Expertise), then that weakens the overall build, and you need to consider that when choosing your feats. Ideally, you want nothing but strong feats. (Though that's rarely an option).

Note that this varies widely based on the level that you are playing at. For example, at 1st level Weapon Specialization is better then Power Attack. But by the time you reach 3rd level, Power Attack is a far superior feat.

Sometimes taking a weak feat is extremely useful for a particular gaming group. For example, Improved Initiative provides a minor static bonus. But if your group's combats tend to be decided in the first two rounds, then improving your chances of going earlier in the first round by 10%+ percent can actually be hugely useful. Everything depends on context.

Here is a list you might find helpful.


Official feat index (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)
Better feat index (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml)
Crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)

General:
Item Familiar
Leadership
Ancestral Weapon
Arcane Schooling
Magic Device Attunement
Sociable Personality (Half Elf)
Dragonwrought (Kobold)
Knowledge Devotion + Trivial Knowledge (Gnome)
Frightful Presence or Daunting Presence (high Cha)
Imperious Command (high Cha)
Shape Soulmeld

Arcane Caster:
Arcane Thesis
Easy Metamagic
Quicken Spell
Retributive Spell
Practical Metamagic
Obtain Familiar
Flyby Attack
Extraordinary Concentration
Energy Substitution -> Lord of the Uttercold
Faeries Mysteries Initiate

Gish (Fighter/Wizard-ish builds):
Arcane Strike
Smiting Spell
Obtain Familiar (if necessary) -> Improved Familiar
Practiced Caster

Defensive Melee:
Combat Reflexes -> Stand Still
Evasive Reflexes -> Hold the Line
Improved Unarmed Strike -> Imp Grapple -> Scorpion's Grasp
Power Attack -> Imp Bull Rush -> Knockback (Powerful Build)
Combat Expertise -> Imp Trip -> Knock-Down
Mage Slayer -> Blind Fighting -> Pierce Magical Concealment
Combat Focus -> Combat Vitality + Combat Stability
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach -> Extended Reach
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall
Martial Stance
Goad
Shield Specialization -> Shield Ward
Heavy Armor Optimization -> Deflective Armor

Offensive Melee:
Power Attack -> Leap Attack -> Imp Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper (full BAB)
Battle Jump
Headlong Rush (Orcish blood)
Mounted Combat -> Ride by Attack -> Spirited Charge
Combat Reflexes -> Karmic Strike -> Robilar's Gambit (high Dex)
Stormguard Warrior + related combo
Martial Study
Combat Reflexes -> TWF tree -> Double Hit
Lightning Maces (with Aptitude weapon)

Metabreath:
Quicken Breath
Clinging Breath
Entangling Breath

Psionic:
Expanded Knowledge
Metamorphic Transfer
Overchannel
Inquisitor
Speed of Thought -> Psionic Charge
Psionic Meditation + Hustle
Practiced Manifester
Midnight Augmentation

Barbarian:
Extra Rage
Steadfast Determination

Bard:
Song of the Heart
Words of Creation
Dragonfire Inspiration
Song of the White Raven
Snowflake Wardance
Doomspeak

Cleric:
Divine Metamagic
Easy Metamagic
Quicken Spell
Retributive Spell
Persistent Spell
Arctic Priest or Priest of the Waste
Domain Spontaneity
Touch of Healing
Energy Substitution -> Lord of the Uttercold + summoned undead
Zen Archery
Travel Devotion
Law Devotion
Animal Devotion
Death Devotion
Plant Devotion

Druid:
Natural Spell
Quicken Spell
Augment Summoning
Beast Totem
Greenbound Summoning
Imbued Summoning
Rashemi Elemental Summoning
Assume Supernatural Ability
Aberration Blood-> Aberration Wild Shape
Frozen Wild Shape
Draconic Wild Shape

Factotum:
Font of Inspiration

Monk:
Freezing the Lifeblood
Touch of Golden Ice
Weakening Touch
Pharaoh's Fist
Carmendine Monk
Snap Kick
Monastic Training -> Tashalatora
Sand Dancer

Paladin:
Sword of the Arcane Order
Battle Blessing
Awesome Smite
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Travel Devotion
Law Devotion
Animal Devotion
Death Devotion
Plant Devotion

Ranger:
Sword of the Arcane Order
Nemesis
Wise to Your Ways
Oversized TWF
Quickdraw
Swift Hunter
Indomitable Soul

Rogue-ish:
Craven
Staggering Strike
Dragonfire Strike (bypasses Sneak Attack Immunity if your DM is nice)
Savvy Rogue
Undo Resistance
Silencing Strike (Whisper Gnome with Extra Silence)
Devoted Inquisitor (if you can figure out a way to get a lot of Smite Evil)
Weapon Finesse + Shadowblade (if big difference between Dex and Str)
Darkstalker
Point Blank Shot -> Rapidshot -> Manyshot -> Greater Manyshot
Combat Reflexes -> Vexing Flanker -> Adaptable Flanker
Two Weapon Fighting tree
Underfoot Combat -> Confound the Big Folk
Dive for Cover

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-24, 11:29 AM
Sometimes taking a weak feat is extremely useful for a particular gaming group. For example, Improved Initiative provides a minor static bonus. But if your group's combats tend to be decided in the first two rounds, then improving your chances of going earlier in the first round by 10%+ percent can actually be hugely useful. Everything depends on context.


Well, about II, i found that is useful if more players take it. The group I'm GMing now, 2 of them have II, 2 big dex score. This give them an edge in several istances (even if I said to them initially that there are better feats than II :smallconfused:).

Chronos
2009-03-24, 08:23 PM
Quoth Eladriel:
No PrC is a straight "improvement" upon Rogue: nothing gets 8+Int skills from such a list and advances Sneak Attack at the rate a Rogue does.That's the case for all well-designed PrCs for all base classes. Just because there are a lot of PrCs that give a wizard or sorcerer something for nothing doesn't mean that that's the way it's supposed to be.

Person_Man, I'd also add Obtain Familiar to your list of good feats for a bard or any other high-skill class that can qualify for it (Beguiler, Spellthief, arguably Factotum). In the same way that the familiar having your BAB is good for a gish, it having your skill ranks is good for a skillmonkey. It's basically another skillmonkey in the party (good for scouting in a different direction, acting as a lookout, etc.), and via Aid Another, can effectively give you +2 to all of your skill checks (in addition to Alertness and whatever bonus the animal chosen gives you).