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Hal
2009-03-23, 11:19 AM
In my current game, our party just ended up without any leaders. We were rather in a state of flux; with PHB2 imminent when the game started, many of the characters were just placeholders until it was released. I was cool with my gnome rogue, and another player had a human warlord that just wasn't working the way he thought it would. He kept saying that, as soon as PHB2 would arrive, he'd be playing a bard. It was all he could talk about.

Then it arrived. And he decided that bards were just musical warlords and were terribly boring, and so he decided to roll up a barbarian. While he's more suited to the play style (low/no RP, dashing in to bash faces in and getting excited by huge damage numbers), we're also left with no leader.

Before we started, I said I'd play either a dwarven warlord or a gnome rogue. Since it looks like we need a leader, I'm probably going to have to break out the warlord. I realize that dwarves make better shamans, but I thought a Bravura Warlord sounded like a fun mix of leadership and "rule of awesome" game play. However, I don't know quite how to build this guy. Any suggestions?

Edit for clarity - He'll be starting at level 2, standard point buy for stats, and he'll have access to a level 5 magic item. I have no idea how long the game will go, so he probably doesn't need any projection past heroic tier.

ColdSepp
2009-03-23, 11:43 AM
Well, most Warlords need two stats, Str and Cha or Int. The Bravura needs all three, so he'll never be as effective as the other three. Furthermore, a Dwarf doesn't have racial traits in any of the needed stats, so you'll be in a bit of bind.

It is advised that Bravura Warlords pick either Int or Cha and focus on it, but that is your choice

How is the rest of the party set up? Barbarians get hit a lot, and therefor need healing often, so you might want to take feats that boost your healing.

Do you have the Defender role filled? If not, you'll likely need to go with a shield to take some of the Defender role onto yourself.

You can try the Warlords Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1055055) for some pointers.

Hal
2009-03-23, 12:13 PM
Well, most Warlords need two stats, Str and Cha or Int. The Bravura needs all three, so he'll never be as effective as the other three. Furthermore, a Dwarf doesn't have racial traits in any of the needed stats, so you'll be in a bit of bind.

How is the rest of the party set up? Barbarians get hit a lot, and therefor need healing often, so you might want to take feats that boost your healing.

Do you have the Defender role filled? If not, you'll likely need to go with a shield to take some of the Defender role onto yourself.

You can try the Warlords Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1055055) for some pointers.

I realize that Dwarves aren't the best warlords (why they make amazing shamans is beyond me); I figure I can get a 16 str, 16 cha and be happy with that.

The rest of the party is . . . interesting. We have a human paladin, a human spiked-chain fighter (who will be turning into a sorcerer or an avenger by next session), the half-orc barbarian, a deva invoker, a half-elf ranger, and then myself.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-23, 12:24 PM
Well, most Warlords need two stats, Str and Cha or Int. The Bravura needs all three, so he'll never be as effective as the other three. Furthermore, a Dwarf doesn't have racial traits in any of the needed stats, so you'll be in a bit of bind.

It's unconventional, but not impossible.

OK, first set your sights appropriately:

Dwarf: Considering how militaristic many Dwarven camps can be, they make remarkably poor Warlords. They may be resilient, but that is about the only thing that they have that synergizes heavily with a Warlord. Dwarves may be a decent choice for a Warlord that emphasizes being a defender over a leader.

IMHO, an Inspiring Warlord may be better suited for you. They tend to stand on the front lines, striking off Healing Surges and extra Saves while they work. Dwarves are extremely durable and tend towards the Heavy Armor that CHA Lords usually wear.

But if you go Bravura, definitely focus on CHA - with your movement, you don't want to bother with INT.

So, some general thoughts:
Ability Scores
STR 16
DEX 11
CON 13+2
INT 10
WIS 8+2
CHA 16

Now, I don't have the Bravura Warlord in front of me, but this is a good array for a Dwarven CHA Lord. CON 15 lets you automatically qualify for Plate Armor, and you can easily upgrade to a Heavy Shield. In fact, I'd recommend taking Scale and Heavy Shield proficiency for your first two feats - Heavy Shield if nothing else). I've never minded playing Prime-16 characters, but if it bothers you, swap Weapon Expertise for Scale Proficiency.

Other Stuff
What splatbooks are allowed? If everything, then your item will probably be from Adventurer's Vault - I'd say either a +1 weapon (if you don't take Weapon Expertise) or a Neck Slot item, to shore up your lousy Reflex NAD. Armor with resists are also good; Black Iron Scale/Plate +1 is LV 4 and gives Resist 5 for Fire/Necrotic.

LibraryOgre
2009-03-23, 12:25 PM
I've been playing a Dwarven Warlord for a few months now, and really enjoying it. He's a Resourceful Warlord, and does a mix of ranged and melee. I'm not a fan of Bravura Presence, but my build has been fun.

Your 1st or 2nd feat should be Dwarven Weapon Training. I've been using a +2 Dynamic Throwing Hammer, which usually gets switched to a Warhammer once I've Hammer Formationed (better damage for all my melee powers); it won't be available to you, but it's very useful. A +1 throwing hammer lets you play the mixed throwing/melee person, anyway (and sometimes, I won't switch it; either I anticipate needing to throw, or I don't have an action to spare). If you're going that route, your 2nd or 3rd feat should be Far Throw (Improved Resourcefulness is a fantastic feat, however).

If you've got MP, my set up is Opening Shove (most often used to push people off cliffs, but sometimes to create space for our Chargarian), Wolf-Pack Tactics, Hammer Formation (great for a resourceful), Bastion of Defense and Adaptive Strategem (so long as the goddamn Chargarian doesn't ignore that you've given him a bonus to damage). For attributes, I started at S16 Co10 (+2) D11 I14 W8 (+2) Ch15. At 4th, I added 1 to Str and Charisma. It leaves me a LITTLE behind in the Strength department (1-2 points of bonus), but it means that your specials are much better. The ability to shift people around (from WPT and Opening Shove) means that you can get combat advantage a lot easier.

That's a resourceful Warlord, however; can't tell you about Bravura because I don't like their concept, so I learned nothing about them, and I'm away from books.

Izmir Stinger
2009-03-23, 03:58 PM
OK, I saw this as a bit of a challenge, because neither of a Dwarf's ability score boosts are useful for warlords. When I got in Character Builder and started messing around, it turned out halfway decent. Dwarves pretty much rule all. I'm surprised there haven't been any calls to nerf dwarves.

So, what advantages do dwarves have that we can leverage? First thing that comes to mind is no speed penalty from armor. You are going to be slow anyway, so you might as well wear heavy armor. This makes me lean towards a heavy CHA build, as INT won't help AC if you wear chain or heavier.

Several people have mentioned that Bravura warlords can pick and choose between INT and CHA, but I'm not seeing that to be the case. The Bravura Presence class feature itself isn't defendant on any ability scores, and all of the powers that benefit directly from having Bravura Presence (at least in the Heroic Tier) use CHA as their secondary. Resourceful Warlord is the build that relies on both; people may be confusing the two.

So, CHA heavy it is, though I put a few points in INT for reflex and just in case you want to pick up Taclord powers (though I didn't for levels 1-10), and because I had two spare points and nowhere to put them. What I came up with for starting points (before racials) was:

Str 16, Con* 12, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis* 8, Cha 16

Sixteen in the primary attack stat can be a bitch, but the bitch is much better behaved now that Weapon Expertise is available from PHBII (this is the only thing I took from PHBII in this build). I hate starting with an 8 in an ability you get a racial bonus from, but thems the breaks when you play an off class for your race. Warlords don't need to be wise, apparently. Sun Tzu is spinning in his grave. The points in CON are for qualifying for heavier armor proficiencies and general toughness as the working theory with the Bravura warlord powers seems to be "Make myself vulnerable or invite attacks so that my allies can wallop the enemy while they are distracted with me." Heavier armor is definitely a good call with this guy. Might even pick up plate in paragon.

All in all, I think it works pretty well, despite the apparent weaknesses of the class/race combo. You mentioned an enthusiastic barbarian in the party - I think this build will pair well with him. You may not do all that much damage yourself, but you will directly enable him to do a TON through free attacks and damage bonuses, etc.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 10
Dwarf, Warlord
Build: Bravura Warlord
Commanding Presence: Bravura Presence

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 26 Fort: 22 Reflex: 20 Will: 22
HP: 71 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy, Intimidate, Athletics, Endurance.

FEATS
1: Dwarven Weapon Training
2: Weapon Expertise (Hammers)
4: Improved Inspiring Word
6: Grudge Style
8: Armor Proficiency (Scale)
10: Improved Bravura

POWERS
1, At-Will: Brash Assault
1, At-Will: Furious Smash
1, Encounter: Luring Focus
1, Daily: Bastion of Defense
2, Utility: Reckless Opportunity
3, Encounter: Flattening Charge
5, Daily: Staggering Spin
6, Utility: Tempting Target
7, Encounter: Provoke Overextension
9, Daily: Iron Dragon Charge
10, Utility: Defensive Rally

ITEMS
Light Shield, Battering Craghammer +3, Reflexive Drakescale Armor +2, Periapt of Cascading Health +2, Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Lantern, Oil (1 pint) (10), Boots of Quickness (heroic tier), Bracers of Respite (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (2)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

I chose the equipment based on the standard rules for creating a character at level 10. He has 150 gold left over after all that. Just some neat stuff to think about grabbing around those levels (especially battering hammers, they are teh awesome).

I really wanted to get Toughness in that feat list somewhere. If you find that you need more HP, drop either Improved Bravura, Improved Inspiring Word or Grudge Style, depending on which is getting the least use. The order for the feats past LVL 2 is totally subjective. Grab them in whichever order you think you need them. Obviously don't pick up scale prof until some magic scale is available, and you may want Grudge Style before you start improving your class features.

BTW, if you don't have the appropriate Dragon Magazine article, here is the description of the relevant portion of Grudge Style:

Grudge Style [Arena Fighting]

Prerequisite: Wis 13 or dwarf race, any martial class
Benefit: You gain a benefit with any of the following exploits you possess.

...

Furious Smash (warlord): If the target dealt you damage since the end of your last turn, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll with this exploit.

...

Another Dwarf benefit helping you out, you can take this feat without having any Wisdom. Your various encounters and dailies make it pretty likely that you can get an enemy (or two or three) to attack you which makes it pretty likely that the enemy will have dealt you damage since the end of last round. This sets you up for a Furious Smash with a +2 to hit, and if it hits, your barbarian buddy's next attack gets a +4 to hit AND damage (encourage him to take Power Attack). Otherwise, you can just Brash Assault to give the Barb (or someone else, even ranged if they are close enough) a free attack with CA.

My power choices may be a bit reckless for your tastes, as many of them cause you to grant CA or just flat out let the enemy attack you as a free action (again, that's why I went shield/heavy armor) but that seems to be what the the Bravura Warlord is all about. Your Dwarven Second Wind as a minor action is likely to see lots of use as well.

Enjoy. Try not to get yourself killed.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-23, 04:22 PM
Stuff
Just a few suggestions.

* Don't add int to the build, you are spread enough between ability score points as it is. In general you want a focused build (spirelord) rather than a diluted one (spirelord+taclord combo) and this goes double if your race boosts the "wrong" abilities.
* Also, "a few points in INT for reflex" doesn't help. +0 or +1 doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant that; and anyway if you can't make a defense good, it doesn't matter much whether it's mediocre or poor.
* 16 in the primary is annoying. That we have weapon exp now doesn't change the fact that you'll be hitting substantially less often than your party members.

So I'd suggest this:
Str 18, Con 13+2, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 10+2, Cha 14

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-23, 05:18 PM
Just a few suggestions.

* Don't add int to the build, you are spread enough between ability score points as it is. In general you want a focused build (spirelord) rather than a diluted one (spirelord+taclord combo) and this goes double if your race boosts the "wrong" abilities.
* Also, "a few points in INT for reflex" doesn't help. +0 or +1 doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant that; and anyway if you can't make a defense good, it doesn't matter much whether it's mediocre or poor.
* 16 in the primary is annoying. That we have weapon exp now doesn't change the fact that you'll be hitting substantially less often than your party members.

So I'd suggest this:
Str 18, Con 13+2, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 10+2, Cha 14

On the contrary, I would recommend Dropping down WIS for DEX to be a 10. As a Bravura Warlord, you don't want to be the last one in - it defeats the purpose of some of your abilities. In order to accomplish this, you should at least not have a DEX penalty, IMHO.

Izmir Stinger
2009-03-23, 06:00 PM
So I'd suggest this:
Str 18, Con 13+2, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 10+2, Cha 14

I selected the ability scores before looking at the powers list with much detail, and I thought there would be some must have tac-lord powers, but it turns out I didn't take any, so you have a valid point about the INT.

Unfortunately, that ability score array you recommend costs 24 points; you gotta shave two more points off somewhere.

I agree with Shadow Elf about the DEX vs WIS thing. That would make this my recommendation for an 18 STR version of the same build:

Str 18, Con* 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis* 8, Cha 13

You still qualify for all the feats I took, and qualify for Plate Prof, should you choose. Hard to say if the 18 STR is worth the point buy, though, now that Weapon Expertise is available. You have to sacrifice a lot of CHA to start with STR that high, which means the bonuses you confer to the party with your powers drop dramatically.

Let me propose the following as a compromise:

Str 17, Con* 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis* 8, Cha 15

Drop one point in STR and pick up 2 in CHA. You start out with some annoying odd numbers, but that just means you get a huge power boost at level 4 instead of 8 when most people get it. I considered taking some points out of CON, but that would put Plate armor out of reach until much later, lower healing surges, make Deadly Axe/Hammer Rhythm unattainable, reduce the effectiveness of Dwarven Durability (which this build could probably use at Paragon). IDK. Hard to say.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-24, 04:53 AM
Unfortunately, that ability score array you recommend costs 24 points; you gotta shave two more points off somewhere.
Oops, typo on my part. I meant Con 11.


that would put Plate armor out of reach until much later, lower healing surges, make Deadly Axe/Hammer Rhythm unattainable, reduce the effectiveness of Dwarven Durability (which this build could probably use at Paragon). IDK. Hard to say.
Well, yes. But the point is that you aren't a primary combatant: you're a leader. That means that plate armor and hammer rhythm really aren't meant for you. A striker or defender would get much more mileage out of them, and you can find other feats that focus on what you do best.

Whether you have enough healing surges depends on your DM, but generally it's the defenders that run out first, and you can always get two more at the cost of a feat if it bothers you. Feats are less "expensive" than ability scores.

Also worth consideration: you're starting at level two. How long do you expect this campaign (and this character) to last? Consider whether it's likely to get to paragon tier, and if this chance is really worth playing a character that is less effective in the short term, more effective in the long term. Depends largely on your group, but most campaigns I've played in didn't last that long.



Str 17, Con* 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis* 8, Cha 15
Sure, that would work. I'd swap your int and wis, because otherwise the +2 feels like such a waste :smallsmile: