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RMS Oceanic
2009-03-23, 11:53 AM
While it was hotly debated at the time, I think it's safe to assume that the fiends offered V the zany scheme to force h** to admit (s)he chose the soul splice to avoid having to admit that (s)he has failed again, rather than having no other way of saving h** family.

But I find it rather...I don't know what I find it. I want to say "ironic", but I'm not confident enough in my understanding of the word to use that correctly. I find it "ironic" anyway that by taking the soul splice, V is still admitting that h** magic isn't strong enough, even if (s)he doesn't realise it. (S)he isn't rescuing h** family and committing disproportionate retribution against Black Dragonkind, three epic spellcasters are. Three spellcasters (s)he begged evil fiends to help h** save h** family. It's not V's magic that's saving h** kids from draconic digestion, it's someone elses, even if V is technically making them do it.

I guess it underlines the whole tragic flaw thing. It could also make for a good way of calling V out on what (s)he's doing.

Mannryu
2009-03-23, 12:01 PM
It is some sort of agreement that her/his magic is not strong enough, however, the others will not know that. S/he did have a chance to die and let others take care of the dragon, but that way others would know s/he didn't succeed. So will V's spouse. Maybe that's what has driven her/him into this?
It is just my thought, somehow.

derfenrirwolv
2009-03-23, 12:21 PM
V doesn't just believe in HIS* magic, he believes in MAGIC as the ultimate source of power in the universe. It wasn't just V that failed in azure city, it was arcane magic in general that he had to take a stand for.









*used simply for convinience

JJ48
2009-03-23, 12:47 PM
Very interesting theory. However, I respectfully disagree. If V were working WITH three epic-level spellcasters, then yes, his magic would have again failed him. However, he is not. He has instead been given control OVER the abilities of three epic-level spellcasters, assimilating them into his own.

To illustrate, it's similar in principle to using magical items. V certainly has magical items boosting his abilities, and yet we don't say "It was the ring, not V, that did that". ...or maybe we do. I haven't really been here long enough to say. At any rate, I don't say that. And I kind of see the souls from the soul splice the same way. They aren't the ones performing the magic; they're just tools, allowing V to perform the magic, as opposed to the alternate plan, of having someone ELSE do magic on his behalf.

Additionally, I would like to point out that really, it depends on how V views it. Since basically, the whole problem is that V doesn't want to admit failure, it really comes down to does V think that using the soul-splice counts as admitting failure, or not.

Kaytara
2009-03-24, 01:37 AM
I've heard an interesting take on this in another thread. To boot:
Vaarsuvius wanting to prove the superiority of HIS magic is precisely why he dragged out the fight with non-Epic spells when he presumably could have finished the dragon with a single Memento Mori. He wanted to prove that taking on an Ancient Black Dragon and protecting his family was still something he didn't need the Soul Splice for, something he'd be able to do in about three levels' time, anyway.

RMS Oceanic
2009-03-24, 01:52 AM
V doesn't just believe in HIS* magic, he believes in MAGIC as the ultimate source of power in the universe. It wasn't just V that failed in azure city, it was arcane magic in general that he had to take a stand for.

Maybe. However, the fiends' Zany SchemeTM involved getting a great mage to save the day, so Magic would have proven triumphant anyway, but V didn't choose it because it would have meant admitting failure.


I've heard an interesting take on this in another thread. To boot:
Vaarsuvius wanting to prove the superiority of HIS magic is precisely why he dragged out the fight with non-Epic spells when he presumably could have finished the dragon with a single Memento Mori. He wanted to prove that taking on an Ancient Black Dragon and protecting his family was still something he didn't need the Soul Splice for, something he'd be able to do in about three levels' time, anyway.

That's also an interesting take on the fight itself, and possibly true. However V would never have been able to teleport to h** family in time using h** own magic. For that (s)he had to elicit the help of fiends to give h** the power of another. The way I see it, that's just as an admission of failure as asking Aarindarius to step in.

Taelas
2009-03-24, 01:57 AM
V doesn't just believe in HIS* magic, he believes in MAGIC as the ultimate source of power in the universe. It wasn't just V that failed in azure city, it was arcane magic in general that he had to take a stand for.

That doesn't fly. V could have asked Aarindarius to clean up his mess -- and Aarindarius is a mage. It's specifically his own magic that's the problem, here.

Porthos
2009-03-24, 02:23 AM
I've heard an interesting take on this in another thread. To boot:
Vaarsuvius wanting to prove the superiority of HIS magic is precisely why he dragged out the fight with non-Epic spells when he presumably could have finished the dragon with a single Memento Mori. He wanted to prove that taking on an Ancient Black Dragon and protecting his family was still something he didn't need the Soul Splice for, something he'd be able to do in about three levels' time, anyway.

Well, to do the Quickened Disintergrate, he'd need to be epic* (it's a 10th level slot)...

And the Disjunction only really worked because (presumably) of the insane Effective Caster Level that V has right now...

But aside from those two quibbles, I see what you mean. I think the idea has some merit, at least on V's subconsious level. :smallsmile:

* Yes there are some feats out there which reduce the casting penalty for metamagic. I'm taking about a "normal" situation here. :smalltongue:

rxmd
2009-03-24, 02:39 AM
It wasn't just V that failed in azure city, it was arcane magic in general that he had to take a stand for.

Ma... Magic must succeed
I... I must succeed

factotum
2009-03-24, 02:40 AM
He wanted to prove that taking on an Ancient Black Dragon and protecting his family was still something he didn't need the Soul Splice for, something he'd be able to do in about three levels' time, anyway.

Except he immediately proved the opposite by using Shapechange, a 9th-level spell. Judging by the comments of the soul splices, killing the dragon that way was intentional...

Kaytara
2009-03-24, 07:02 AM
Except he immediately proved the opposite by using Shapechange, a 9th-level spell. Judging by the comments of the soul splices, killing the dragon that way was intentional...

What do you mean? In three levels' time, V would be 17th level, and would thus have access to 9th level spells, including Shapechange.

V'icternus
2009-03-24, 07:26 AM
Well, one way to look at this would be to look at what was said in the comic strip. The fact that V gained the power wasn't the issue, V tries to do that anyway. The fact that the "sell your soul" idea was V's (at least, V came up with it. Although it does look like the IFCC knows more than they're letting on...) means that it was still V's skill/intellingence/whatnot that saved V's children. V even has to maintain the effect of the splice, whereas a lesser person wouldn't be able to for nearly as long as V.

So I think that, at least from V's point of view, this is far more acceptable than allowing others to come to the rescue.