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Zergrusheddie
2009-03-23, 01:51 PM
Howdy folks. For a Bugbear campaign I wanted to try out a Spiked Chain Wolf Totem Variant Barbarian. He has been highly effective so far but I fear that I have absolutely do idea what feats to take next. So far, I have EWP and Combat Reflexes and I have no idea where to go from there. The allowed material are Core, PH2, and the SRD; the only feat I can think of being powerful from there is Power Attack. Anyone have any suggestions?

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Keld Denar
2009-03-23, 01:58 PM
Its oft maligned for lack of power, but I'd highly recommend Weapon Focus at some point. The reason for this being, Weapon Focus is a prereq for Exotic Weapon Master...which for a Spiked Chain wielder, is freakin AMAZING. The Flurry of Strikes trick is what you are aiming for. -2 to all attacks in exchange for an extra attack at highest AB (minus the penalty). This is AWESOME because it increases your damage geometrically. Weapon Focus also gets you into 2 other PrCs that I'm fond of, Pious Templar (for Mettle and free Weapon Specialization) and Occult Slayer (for immunity to [Mind Affecting] and a semi-useful spell reflection).

Other than that, PA is good. Hold the Line is also fun, giving you 2 AoOs whenever a non-reaching person charges you (one for the normal act of moving, one specifically triggered from Hold the Line). If you pick up a pair of Steadfast Boots, you get to make 3 attacks whenever someone charges you.

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 01:59 PM
Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill), Combat Reflexes & PA are a solid start; gives you a good amount of versatility. Eventually you'll obviously Robilar's Gambit. The last feats are tough though, though Steadfast Determination (requiring Endurance) is definitely great for SAD - the need for it depends on your Wis. Requires multiclassing to get rationally as it otherwise presents quite the feat investment.


Note that Completes aren't allowed to EWM isn't game.

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-23, 02:30 PM
I never understood the power of Knock-Down; why would you do a normal attack and than trip when you could Trip and than Attack at +4? Or can you pull off some interesting attacks with Attack, Trip, Free Attack from Imp. Trip?
And, most unfortunately, the Completes are verboten. Whirling Frenzy Rage Variant is allowed so I was thinking of grabbing that.

As always, Keld and Eldariel come to my rescue. Thank you.
-Eddie

Draz74
2009-03-23, 02:36 PM
I never understood the power of Knock-Down; why would you do a normal attack and than trip when you could Trip and than Attack at +4?
Because, against many large monsters, you're a lot more likely to hit (and do at least 10 damage) than you are to succeed on a trip. If two effects are linked in a cause-effect relationship like this, you want to use the one that's more likely to succeed as the "trigger."


Or can you pull off some interesting attacks with Attack, Trip, Free Attack from Imp. Trip?
By strict RAW, yes, you can get two attacks out of each attack this way. But many DMs, including myself, don't allow it. Even nerfed, though, I think Knock-Down is a decent feat.


And, most unfortunately, the Completes are verboten.

Yeah, so no Exotic Weapon Master. :smallfrown:

Eldariel
2009-03-23, 02:57 PM
The real idea is to increase your versatility; against medium and smaller opponents, trip first and reap the To Hit-benefits, getting the attack once your touch attack and trip succeed. Against larger opponents, hit 'em first (they tend to have poor AC anyways) and take the Trip as a free bonus if it happens to succeed.

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-23, 03:18 PM
The real idea is to increase your versatility; against medium and smaller opponents, trip first and reap the To Hit-benefits, getting the attack once your touch attack and trip succeed. Against larger opponents, hit 'em first (they tend to have poor AC anyways) and take the Trip as a free bonus if it happens to succeed.

But is it even worth trying to trip larger opponents? I do not want to try tripping someone and end up on my butt. Does the Free Trip Attack make you avoid the rather nasty outcome of failing a trip?

Curmudgeon
2009-03-23, 08:02 PM
But is it even worth trying to trip larger opponents? I do not want to try tripping someone and end up on my butt. Does the Free Trip Attack make you avoid the rather nasty outcome of failing a trip? No, tripping with a weapon, even with Improved Trip, does not prevent the opponent from trying to trip you in reprisal. All you can do is drop the weapon. Ludicrous as it seems, the Quick Draw feat will let you pull out another spiked chain as a free action. I recommend that, if you're sticking mostly to Core. (If you have the Magic Item Compendium you would get Steadfast Boots for a big increase in effectiveness from your spiked chain -- including free attacks against charging foes!)

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-23, 10:58 PM
Aside from Enlarge Person, are there any ways of increasing your reach that are within Core/SRD?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-23, 11:10 PM
Aside from Enlarge Person, are there any ways of increasing your reach that are within Core/SRD?Play a large race, or cast something like Righteous Might, Expansion, or similar.

RTGoodman
2009-03-23, 11:48 PM
Yeah, expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) is probably a good choice, especially since it lets you increase more than one size category if you augment it with enough power points. If your Wisdom's high enough, I guess you could grab a couple of levels of Psychic Warrior and go to town from there. You need manifester level 7 to increase two sizes, though, so that's probably out of the question unless you dip three levels and then take Practiced Manifester or something.

Talic
2009-03-24, 12:51 AM
Note: If you're not using some of the more esoteric aspects of the spiked chain (such as weapon finessing it), you're much better off with a Guisarme + Armor spikes (or improved unarmed strike). Not to mention, you won't look like you belong in a cheesy manga.

Firstly, no exotic feat required. You get 10 foot reach + trip with guisarme. You get 5 foot attack with armor spikes or Improved unarmed strike. This frees up another feat.

Also, such builds generally don't have the intelligence to use most of the Expertise line (excepting for improved trip, thank you wolf barbarian)... So go for other ways to capitalize on free attacks/easy to hit foes.

Cleave is excellent. So is power attack. Run is good. Any feat that increases movement or reach is good.

Combat Reflexes is EXCELLENT.

Keld Denar
2009-03-24, 02:11 AM
Really, Talic, the big difference between when you want a Spiked Chain and when you want a Guisarme + Gaunts is dependant on how much control you want to maintain. Standstill is dependant on how much damage you do. If the person is inside of your Guisarme range, you're AoOs on them will be really weak damage output wise due to the loss of PA and 1.5x +str bonus and primary weapon enhancements since both Spiked Gauntlets and Armor Spikes are both light weapons and you shouldn't really be sinking a ton of cash into your alt weapon. If you are dependant on tripping, you are likewise out of luck, since neither of your close weapons are tripping weapons. That means you have to trip with your Unarmed Strike, and if you fail, you may get counter-tripped without the option of dropping the weapon.

If you are just whackin on someone using the reach weapon primarily so you don't have to close on your opponent, then a polearm is a decent choice. If you are desiring to be a melee controller, then it is well worth it to invest a feat in EWP: Spiked Chain. If you don't like the flavor of the spiked chain, then change it. Call it something else, maybe some kind of exotic polearm with the exact same stats and exact same proficieny requirements and have fun with it.

Talic
2009-03-24, 02:27 AM
Really, Keld, the only way something gets inside of your threat range with a guisarme is by moving through it. In that case, a simple <5 foot step> works just as well.

Incidentally, the feat selection guidelines the OP used prohibit the Stand Still feat, IIRC.

Compare Dropping your weapon to avoid being counter tripped vs going prone (worst case scenario for each). Tell me, as a control based character, why would you EVER want to drop the only weapon allowing you to control? Thus, your "you can drop a weapon at 5 feet away to avoid being tripped" is an illusion. You're provoking an AoO either way (picking up a weapon vs getting up). Difference? You can make a trip attack with your weapon at full reach while prone... You can't while standing, if disarmed.

So, not so much difference there, other than the manga illusion. Trippers will still be vulnerable to anything that can make a tumble check. However, when coupled with high strength, the difference is minimal.

The loss of 1.5 strength is 2-3 damage at low levels, and a loss of 8 damage if your tripper has the strength of a raging ubercharger. In other words, not much.

The loss of power attack? Battlefield control isn't about high damage. Accuracy is the premium. A controller with a 95% trip rate and 10 damage per round will do a far more effective job than one with 50% trip rate and 50 damage per round.

Power attack lowers accuracy, in exhange for modest damage increases. Perhaps useful in small doses, but in those cases, the loss of damage from 1/1 and 2/1 is minimal.

If Shock trooper were in the allowed section, and Stand Still, you'd have a point.

As they're not... You don't.

Stephen_E
2009-03-24, 05:58 AM
You don'r specify your PCs Int, but assuming it's 13+, or you can gain Headband of Unt sufficient to increase it to 13+ the useful feats I'm aware of are (not incl PHB2 which I don;t have)

Combat Expertise (prereq)
Improved Trip
Knockdown (SRD)
Quick Draw
Improved Disarm
Stand Stii (SRD)
Power Att (prereq)
Cleave
Great Cleave

Knockdown/Improved Trip/Quick Draw means you make a standard attack, do 10+ damage, make a trip attack for free, if suceesful make another attack with +4 from prone. If the trip fails and you're tripped back you can drop your weapon and quickdraw another and continue your full attack (carry an absolute minimum of 3 chains, 1 silvered, 1 cold iron, 1 adamantiom when you can afford it)

Improved Disarm. Don't forget Spiked Chain is a Disarm weapon as well, and 2HWs are exfellect Disarm weapons.

Stand Still stops people moving through your threat zone to hit the people you're protecting.

Cleave/Great Cleave. With the Knockdown/Improved Trip set you can look at getting 2 attacks against each target you hit when dealing with mooks. Against mooks this can often be enough to get a kill, thus allowing another attack from Cleave/Great Cleave (check with your GM exactly how he'she rules Cleave trigger) this can result in a single attack killing every mook within 10'.

This last trick I did myself while on 0hps and surrounded by a wounded chief and about 8 mooks. Killed them all with my single attack and then collapsed from the auto 1pt damage. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen E

Sophismata
2009-03-24, 06:23 AM
SRD is allowed, so Stand Still should be acceptable.