[4e] Weapons as Implements Question

[Burley]

I've noticed that, though there are only a couple classes that actually use weapons as implements, there is a deep lack of clarity on where the rules end, begin and blend involving feats and powers.

A specific example: A halfling sorceror named Vernon uses daggers as implements and weapons. He has multi-classed into rogue for the extra sneak attack damage, and also has taken the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat, allowing spell range to become Melee, if it suits him.

So, if Vernon wanted to, he could take the Daggermaster paragon path. If her does so, would he gain the benifits the path gives, like the increases critical threat range, if he uses the spell through the dagger? It makes little to no sense with a ranged spell, but when using a spell with melee range, it makes quite a bit more sense.

This has really been gettin' my goat, lately. I love the Sorceror, and I've already got an amazing character concept worked up (PM me and I'll share), but I don't fully understand the logistics.
I can has help, please?

[ColdSepp]

Yes, you can do that, as of now. The reason is that Daggermaster only specifies using the Dagger to attack, and does not require the Weapon Keyword.

As such, a sorc can indeed get the increased crit range with any of the spells using a dagger as an implement. It may not make much sense, but it is the rules.

Be aware that it may be errated at some point, by changing Daggermaster to only work with the Weapon Keyword. Also note that Weapon Focus, per the FAQ, does apply to any use of the weapon, even without the Weapon Keyword, so you could use it to boost your spell damage.

[Burley]

Isn't there an implement feat that gives you bonuses to hit? Finally, implement powers that can actually deal damage.

[Kurald Galain]

If her does so, would he gain the benifits the path gives, like the increases critical threat range, if he uses the spell through the dagger?
Technically yes, although I would expect many DMs to forbid it.

Be aware that WOTC has long neglected to make any clear rulings on using implements as weapons, or weapons as implements; and that when (if) they do, they may well break your character in half. Put it like this: if they were going to make a subtle ruling, they would have done it already. So they'll most likely either make a big ruling, or don't do anything.

[Thajocoth]

I know I'd absolutely allow it. Why? It's not really more powerful than any other paragon path to do that. You've mastered using a dagger as an implement. You are, thusly, a dagger master. As a striker, you're supposed to be dealing high amounts of damage.

[JackMage666]

The real question is, should you be allowed to sneak attack with a power that you use a Dagger as an implement with?

[ColdSepp]

Implement Expertise is the feat that increases your attack bonus.

And, yes as it is currently written you can sneak attack with sorc powers that use a dagger as an implement, though it is currently being debated if it should work that way on the Rules Q&A boards.

Sneak Attack only requires you to wield a Light Blade, Sling, or Crossbow, which a sorcerer does. It says nothing about only working with powers that have the Weapon Keyword, so as written, you can SA with a sorc power.

Warlocks can to, with the Pact Blade, I should add. (Customer Service agrees with that, if you consider them a reliable source.)

And, here is the FAQ to tell you exactly what you get from a weapon:


17. When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon?

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.

[Asbestos]

Hmm... then you might want to look into that feat that lets you get combat advantage at range, since technically.... you'd be able to sneak attack with your ranged sorc powers then.

[TheOOB]

I would ask your DM how they want to handle the issue in their games. While there are several case by case examples of using weapons as implements on their sight, WotC has released little in the way of general rules on the subject.

I personally try to be an enabler in situations like these, allowing whatever seems reasonable. However I personally would disallow the daggermaster PP to work on implement attacks. The PP is balanced assuming low damage weapon attacks.

Anyways, just my 2cp

[Kurald Galain]

I know I'd absolutely allow it. Why? It's not really more powerful than any other paragon path to do that.

It is, for one reason: you are combining 18+ crits (which substantially boost your damage) with area effects (which also substantially boost your damage).

Throw a burst with four or five targets, on an 18+ crit, and some feats/items that do something nasty on a crit, and you have a highly effective combo there.