[3.5] Lunar-mech, ideas?

[Callos_DeTerran]

The title pretty much says it all but I figure a bit of extra knowledge definitely can't hurt. My group of PCs have recently begun to enjoy playing in the Dragonmech-verse which I've found very much to my liking. Without any ado I began to GM a game for them with them as Irontooth clansmen going to stake their claim on a lunar meteorite (a massive one) that was rumored to be full of menesite. The PCs don't know that the asteroid is actually a lunar dragon's first attempt at creating one of the 'things the terrestrials seem so fond of'. In otherwords the asteroid is actually a lunar city-mech with a lunar dragon mech symbiote controlling the thing.

By the time the players get to the asteriod again (they had to abandon it the first time) they'll have a pretty huge clue something is wrong when the majority of the sucker is quite simply missing with massive foot-steps leading away from the crater. That should be enough to have them start investigating the matter but even if it's not then there will be other plot-hooks along the way.

What I'm looking for are the actual capabilities of this lunar city-mech, which I haven't proven too skilled at making so far. I'm trying to create a feeling of other-worldy technology about the thing with some unique weapons and such but have been drawing blanks on what to actually give it. The first attempt I made at a mech (sort of an over-powered 'training' mech to get them used to the setting) was exactly that. Overpowered as hell and well beyond their means of maintaining. I'm looking for advice on how to make this sucker a suitable capstone Elder-Evil kind of end-dungeon for the PC's that they need to take down without it annihilating them in the first round (Optimized they be not).

Also, any advice on how to fit mechs into the CR system would be greatly appreciated because I have no idea.

[Ascension]

Oh, Dragonmech, fun.

So, the PCs are Irontooth clansmen? What classes? What level? Any mech devils among them? How heavily armed are they? Do you want them to win (It seems you do, but I'm asking just to clarify)?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Oh, Dragonmech, fun.

So, the PCs are Irontooth clansmen? What classes? What level? Any mech devils among them? How heavily armed are they? Do you want them to win (It seems you do, but I'm asking just to clarify)?

Yes. 1 level 9 monk, 1 level 6 Dragon Shaman/3 Mech Jockey, and one level 9 barbarian. No mech jockeys. They still have the 'training mech' but it's been downgraded to reasonable levels but are otherwise rather armed rather then heavily so.

I plan for them to encounter the Lunar-mech now, so they know what they are shooting for, but they won't/shouldn't actually battle it until they've gotten at least 7 levels. At that point they should win but it should be a difficult and memorable fight. A true capstone.

I'm not sure which PrC they plan on going into yet. I don't think the monk plans on going into any but the mech jockey/dragon shaman MIGHT go into mech devil. The Barbarian will likely remain single-classed as well due to the player's unfamiliarity with barbarians.

[Nerd-o-rama]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/al0013/Lets%20Play%20SRWJ/portraits/alvan.png: A huge moon battleship? I like where this is going.

I (to everyone's surprise) am not all that familiar with Dragonmech. What are the abilities and weapons you'd expect from a "common" mecha in the setting, and what are Lunar Dragons exactly?

[Ascension]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/al0013/Lets%20Play%20SRWJ/portraits/alvan.png: A huge moon battleship? I like where this is going.

I (to everyone's surprise) am not all that familiar with Dragonmech. What are the abilities and weapons you'd expect from a "common" mecha in the setting, and what are Lunar Dragons exactly?

Okay, here's the deal with DragonMech. In (very) brief, the moon has been pulled dangerously close to the earth, and bits fall off regularly in a "lunar rain" that has devastated the countryside and driven people underground or into the massive city-mechs that are about the only thing that can survive the rain in the open for any length of time. The rain brings with it various horrors native to the moon, the lunar dragons included. The lunar dragons already outclass all traditional D&D dragons in size and power (well, all the non-epic dragons, anyway) and basically serve as the setting's Angels... incomprehensible alien threats which you pretty much NEED a mech, and a good one, to deal with (well, not technically, but it makes things much easier). Although they're certainly intelligent, the core DragonMech book, at least, treats them primarily as marauding threats, with detail work left to the more subtle lunar creatures.

The OP's idea is to give the lunar dragons, more than formidable enough on their own, a city-mech. That's like... that's like giving Godzilla a mech. And an intellect. The difficulty with creating mechs in DragonMech (and, in fact, with all mecha rules I've seen for D&D) is that they don't have traditional challenge ratings. Furthermore, this would be a lunar city-mech, meaning it would most likely be based on a completely different sort of tech/magic than terrestrial mecha.

As for your technology questions, DragonMech is solidly steampunk (post-apocalyptic steampunk), and steam is its most common power source, but you can also find mechs that are powered by clockwork, manual labor, magic... there are even undead mechs. Weapons vary widely, but they're primarily a mix of steampunk (various firearms, flamethrowers, a couple of powered melee weapons) and pseudomedieval (ballistas, catapults, giant swords, flails, lances), with magic thrown in for Elvish mechs. In terms of sheer damage the weapons (in the core book, at least) caps with a unique weapon built for a specific city-mech... the City Killer, an enormous steam cannon that does 12d12 damage with a x3 crit and a range increment of 1000 ft.. Non-unique weapons, both melee and ranged, cap at 8d12, though the buzzsaw has a better crit range than the steam cannon.

Addressing the OP's questions, I would say you should make lunar mecha run on biotechnology, conspicuously squicky biotechnology. They should attack with a sheer brute force unseen in terrestrial mecha, paired with an unnatural grace. Use the Assimilated prestige class, or a variant, for its pilot... you called the pilot a symbiote in your first post, I'd say you should really run with that. The pilot should be near-seamlessly integrated into the largely biological mech, its skin joined with his. If they have any ranged weapons they should be similar to the dragons' own breath weapons (a cone of white energy, Nerdo). I'd make the weapon a line weapon instead of a cone, though... it's more wave motion gun-ish that way. Size is also a factor. Everything about the lunar dragons is bigger than its terrestrial counterparts, their mechs should be too. This thing should be beyond normal city-mechs, not far beyond, but beyond enough to be noticeable.

The real difficulty is making the mech into a real force of nature, an overwhelmingly credible threat, and then expecting your PCs to fight it in anything less than a city mech of their own. You both want to sell the lunar mech's capabilities to keep it from being all bark and no bite and at the same time you want to make it vulnerable to the PCs.

My recommendation would be to avoid having the PCs engage it in mech-to-mech combat. Have them get a terrestrial city mech and whatever else they can muster to distract it while they board it and try to take it out from within. The innards of a living mech based on alien biology would make for an excellent final dungeon. You'd also be spared coming up with solid statistics for the whole mech this way... roll some dice for credibility if you have to, but just describe its fight with the NPC mechs, and make sure that it sounds like it is winning handily. Let the PCs know if they can't bring it down from within nothing's going to scratch it from without.

[Nerd-o-rama]

All I have to say is:

1) Ascension is a great scenario designer.
2) Why am I not playing Dragonmech right now?
3)
The pilot should be near-seamlessly integrated into the largely biological mech, its skin joined with his.PROTOCULTUUUUUUURE!

[Ascension]

2) Why am I not playing Dragonmech right now?

I've considered trying to run a game in PbP, but I fear it isn't widespread enough for me to find a party's worth of players in possession of the book. Especially not since the legal pdfs were, as far as I can tell, pulled from the internet after 4E was released. You can get some of the physical books for a relatively low rate, but they're still not exceptionally easy to find. I love the setting and I love the sound of some of the stuff that's in the other books, but I've not actually purchased anything but the main book since I am, again, afraid that I won't be able to find anyone both willing and able to play.

In some ways I like some of Doom Striders' mech rules better, but DragonMech provides an excellent campaign setting and excellent not-directly-mech-related steampunk rules in addition to the mech rules, so it definitely wins out overall.

[Kris Strife]

And to think I passed up a chance to grab that book...

I love giant mecha, except for Evangelion (I'm crazy enough) and Eureka 7 (too much wangst, not enough robot fights) so this would be perfect for me.

And I vote for having them steal one of the bio-mechs for the final showdown.

[Ascension]

And I vote for having them steal one of the bio-mechs for the final showdown.

The OP only mentioned one of them, and the process of adapting alien biotech to be controllable by humans (and/or dwarves, etc.) would have to be unpleasant, but a mirror match ending wouldn't be a bad idea.

Back when I was planning a campaign using the Doom Striders mech rules I was going to have the PCs steal a gnomish mech and fight their way out of the gnomes' underground city with it. Stealing technology is always fun. :smallbiggrin:

(Disclaimer: Except in real life! Don't be an industrial spy, 'kay?)

[Kris Strife]

Ah, but thats the thing about biotech: It makes more of itself. And as long as its not death or permanant fusion, the PCs shouldnt have a problem: Some kind of addiction, limits on how long you can be in there, insanity, etc.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The OP's idea is to give the lunar dragons, more than formidable enough on their own, a city-mech. That's like... that's like giving Godzilla a mech. And an intellect. The difficulty with creating mechs in DragonMech (and, in fact, with all mecha rules I've seen for D&D) is that they don't have traditional challenge ratings. Furthermore, this would be a lunar city-mech, meaning it would most likely be based on a completely different sort of tech/magic than terrestrial mecha.

That is, essentially, the line of thought that lead to this final encounter idea in the first place. One of my players was flicking through the Steam Warriors splatbook and found the Mech Symbiote (A step above Assimilated in a very disturbingly fleshy way) PrC which said some lunar dragons even went into it when they destroyed a mech but didn't total it. Then my mind went down the path to 'Well what if a lunar dragon managed to get inside of a city-mech and bonded with it?....what if a lunar dragon BUILT a city-mech and bonded with it?' then...well...presto.


Addressing the OP's questions, I would say you should make lunar mecha run on biotechnology, conspicuously squicky biotechnology. They should attack with a sheer brute force unseen in terrestrial mecha, paired with an unnatural grace. Use the Assimilated prestige class, or a variant, for its pilot... you called the pilot a symbiote in your first post, I'd say you should really run with that. The pilot should be near-seamlessly integrated into the largely biological mech, its skin joined with his. If they have any ranged weapons they should be similar to the dragons' own breath weapons (a cone of white energy, Nerdo). I'd make the weapon a line weapon instead of a cone, though... it's more wave motion gun-ish that way. Size is also a factor. Everything about the lunar dragons is bigger than its terrestrial counterparts, their mechs should be too. This thing should be beyond normal city-mechs, not far beyond, but beyond enough to be noticeable.

Hmm...(Un)/Living steel or re-fluffed undead could work well for the bio-organic part with just a hard outer shell. Yeah, what you described for the 'pilot' is a mech symbiote, by the end their flesh merges with their mech and as long as the mech is still around the pilot can be 'reborn' in a month's time through one of myriad fleshy tumors that grow on the inside.



My recommendation would be to avoid having the PCs engage it in mech-to-mech combat. Have them get a terrestrial city mech and whatever else they can muster to distract it while they board it and try to take it out from within. The innards of a living mech based on alien biology would make for an excellent final dungeon. You'd also be spared coming up with solid statistics for the whole mech this way... roll some dice for credibility if you have to, but just describe its fight with the NPC mechs, and make sure that it sounds like it is winning handily. Let the PCs know if they can't bring it down from within nothing's going to scratch it from without.

That's just it, part of the reason I decided upon this path is that it is one of the PC's goals to make a city-mech. Which could lead to a final encounter that way or going through the innards of a living mech which I know two of the players would prefer. In the end they'll probably end up going for a mix of the two, the one player holding it off from the outside with the two inside going for the 'controls'/'pilot' to bring it down from the inside. Which is, in essence, why I at least want to have the 'hard' stats down so if they do go face to face (They are rather crazy) I'm not making it all up off my ass the entire time.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I've considered trying to run a game in PbP, but I fear it isn't widespread enough for me to find a party's worth of players in possession of the book. Especially not since the legal pdfs were, as far as I can tell, pulled from the internet after 4E was released. You can get some of the physical books for a relatively low rate, but they're still not exceptionally easy to find. I love the setting and I love the sound of some of the stuff that's in the other books, but I've not actually purchased anything but the main book since I am, again, afraid that I won't be able to find anyone both willing and able to play.

Something I've immediately found out when I started my campaign (with only two of the three players at the time) is that Dragonmech actually lends itself well to fewer players, especially if you allow them the Leadership feat to assemble crews for larger mechs and crafting crews to help build them. The mechs really do help close the gap of having less players, even the man-powered/ clockwork/stem hybrids that are essentially suits of power armor (apparently orcs love those).

In other words I think if you tried to run a dragon mech game on Giants you'd probably already have two players. :smallbiggrin:

[Ascension]

That is, essentially, the line of thought that lead to this final encounter idea in the first place. One of my players was flicking through the Steam Warriors splatbook and found the Mech Symbiote (A step above Assimilated in a very disturbingly fleshy way) PrC which said some lunar dragons even went into it when they destroyed a mech but didn't total it. Then my mind went down the path to 'Well what if a lunar dragon managed to get inside of a city-mech and bonded with it?....what if a lunar dragon BUILT a city-mech and bonded with it?' then...well...presto.

Hmm...(Un)/Living steel or re-fluffed undead could work well for the bio-organic part with just a hard outer shell. Yeah, what you described for the 'pilot' is a mech symbiote, by the end their flesh merges with their mech and as long as the mech is still around the pilot can be 'reborn' in a month's time through one of myriad fleshy tumors that grow on the inside.

I NEED STEAM WARRIORS. That is awesome. I knew there was probably something that would enhance the mech beyond what I was suggesting in the ancillary books.

Yeah, refluffed undead is the easy way to do the biotech. Make sure it has the traits of a lunar creature, though.


That's just it, part of the reason I decided upon this path is that it is one of the PC's goals to make a city-mech. Which could lead to a final encounter that way or going through the innards of a living mech which I know two of the players would prefer. In the end they'll probably end up going for a mix of the two, the one player holding it off from the outside with the two inside going for the 'controls'/'pilot' to bring it down from the inside. Which is, in essence, why I at least want to have the 'hard' stats down so if they do go face to face (They are rather crazy) I'm not making it all up off my ass the entire time.

Beautiful. Kind of the Return of the Jedi-style ending, with the PCs in different places doing different things to try to bring down the same enemy. Only RotJ didn't have (at least) two city-mechs slugging it out.

The downside of that is that yes, you will need hard stats. And it's here where I run into trouble. I can estimate a mech's capabilities, and I'm reasonably knowledgeable about the fluff, but I've never actually played in or run a DragonMech game. I'm just going off of numbers on paper, while you have actual play experience. If you don't know what would be properly balanced, what chance then for the rest of us? (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Furmanisms#WHAT_CHANCE_DO_WE_HAVE.3F)


In other words I think if you tried to run a dragon mech game on Giants you'd probably already have two players. :smallbiggrin:

Can I move it MythWeavers? :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

I approve of myth-weavers 100%, even though I probably shouldn't get into another PbP game right now.

I'm going to go roll the dice on finding a used copy at Half-Price Books - even if I never play a game, I just want to have the rules for this. Wish me luck.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I NEED STEAM WARRIORS. That is awesome. I knew there was probably something that would enhance the mech beyond what I was suggesting in the ancillary books.

Yeah, refluffed undead is the easy way to do the biotech. Make sure it has the traits of a lunar creature, though.

Steamwarriors has lots of nifty stuff in it. I'd definitely suggest it. If for the equipment and stuff alone.




Beautiful. Kind of the Return of the Jedi-style ending, with the PCs in different places doing different things to try to bring down the same enemy. Only RotJ didn't have (at least) two city-mechs slugging it out.

The downside of that is that yes, you will need hard stats. And it's here where I run into trouble. I can estimate a mech's capabilities, and I'm reasonably knowledgeable about the fluff, but I've never actually played in or run a DragonMech game. I'm just going off of numbers on paper, while you have actual play experience. If you don't know what would be properly balanced, what chance then for the rest of us? (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Furmanisms#WHAT_CHANCE_DO_WE_HAVE.3F)

I have play experience with the pre-made mechs, not with custom-made ones except for the one I went overboard on. It comes down to I have little instinct about what constitutes strong/over-powered and what doesn't. Though I could probably use Tannaliel as a benchmark, that thing is just MEAN.




Can I move it MythWeavers? :smallbiggrin:

Sure! As long as I get a link.:smallbiggrin:

@Nerd: Try Amazon, that's where I got mine and they were pretty cheap.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also, any advice on how to fit mechs into the CR system would be greatly appreciated because I have no idea.I missed this the first time.

My advice is don't. Magnus_Samma and I have both been running D&D games with mecha showing up as (really OP) magical items, and it's more trouble than it's worth to figure out the CR adjustments. I just throw whatever amount of XP sounds good at them. And convinced Magnus to do the same. Heeheehee.

[Ascension]

I missed this the first time.

My advice is don't. Magnus_Samma and I have both been running D&D games with mecha showing up as (really OP) magical items, and it's more trouble than it's worth to figure out the CR adjustments. I just throw whatever amount of XP sounds good at them. And convinced Magnus to do the same. Heeheehee.

Well, I think he wants it more for determining the difficulty of the encounter than for determining XP. In fact, since this is to be the last encounter of the game, the XP afterward won't really matter. What he does need is something that will be difficult but winnable for his party.


I have play experience with the pre-made mechs, not with custom-made ones except for the one I went overboard on. It comes down to I have little instinct about what constitutes strong/over-powered and what doesn't. Though I could probably use Tannaliel as a benchmark, that thing is just MEAN.

Are Tannaliel's full stats in the Mech Manual? I was really disappointed by the lack of combat stats for the city-mechs in the main book.

I think I want to get the Mech Manual, Steam Warriors, and the 2nd Age of Walkers. I love the DragonMech setting, but it feels rather incomplete with only the core.

By the way, how does breaking out of a holding cell in the torso of a Stenian city-mech, working your way down to the ankles, and stealing a mech from the hangars there to aid in your escape sound for a campaign opener? Provided, of course, that the crew of the city-mech is distracted enough to let you get away. Squashing you at the end your first adventure would make for a short campaign.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well, I think he wants it more for determining the difficulty of the encounter than for determining XP. In fact, since this is to be the last encounter of the game, the XP afterward won't really matter. What he does need is something that will be difficult but winnable for his party.

That, and for other encounters leading up to it. I've almost killed some of my PCs twice on accident because I didn't properly gauge the power of a given mech or it's pilots. It's somewhat frustrating.




Are Tannaliel's full stats in the Mech Manual? I was really disappointed by the lack of combat stats for the city-mechs in the main book.

Durgan-lok, Haven, and Tannaliel are all in the 2nd Age of Walkers. The necro-city-mech Sharlorn is in the Mech Manual. I don't know if any others have been made.


I think I want to get the Mech Manual, Steam Warriors, and the 2nd Age of Walkers. I love the DragonMech setting, but it feels rather incomplete with only the core.

I might advise Steam Warriors, the 2nd Age of Walkers, and then Mech Manual actually. All the Mech Manual offers is new mechs. Steam Warriors has a huge amount of options for players/mechs interested in steam tech and not. 2nd Age of Walkers has a smattering of feats, new equipment, the city-mechs, and some new mechs but oodles of campaign world info. Can't say for the other books because...well...I don't own them.


By the way, how does breaking out of a holding cell in the torso of a Stenian city-mech, working your way down to the ankles, and stealing a mech from the hangars there to aid in your escape sound for a campaign opener? Provided, of course, that the crew of the city-mech is distracted enough to let you get away. Squashing you at the end your first adventure would make for a short campaign.

Sounds wonderful actual. A healthy chase scene followed be a nice leisurely stroll through a gear forest before a riveting chance to steal a mech before ANOTHER chase scene (Or likely chase scene considering the Stenian Confederacy and their habit of surrounding their city-mechs with mech fleets)? Sign me up. :smallbiggrin: Of course I'm more then willing to do my part and send you info from Steam Warriors, Mech Manual, and 2nd Age of Walkers. Especially considering then I could use more interesting stuff.

[Stycotl]

By the way, how does breaking out of a holding cell in the torso of a Stenian city-mech, working your way down to the ankles, and stealing a mech from the hangars there to aid in your escape sound for a campaign opener? Provided, of course, that the crew of the city-mech is distracted enough to let you get away. Squashing you at the end your first adventure would make for a short campaign.

if you end up running a dragonmech campaign, count me in. i'll gladly play. i have the core book and steam warriors.

here is how one giantitp member handled the cr deal for mechas:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105858

it is not flawless, and it would need to be tweaked for dragonmech, but it works (well, it seems like it would; i haven't actually used them yet).