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View Full Version : Tome of Battle, outside of battle



Cedrass
2009-03-24, 11:54 AM
I was wondering how you guys dealt with maneuvers outside of battle since they aren't designed to be used that way. At least not the way I see it, since some Stances give you Scent and some let you teleport.

Personally, I usually let my players use them if they aren't abusing a maneuver's lack of description and if it makes sense, but I wonder how other people deal with the matter.

So, what about you?

Toliudar
2009-03-24, 11:59 AM
In non-time-sensitive situations, I let them use their maneuvers whenever they want.

Eldariel
2009-03-24, 12:13 PM
I houserule every "per encounter"-description to mean "once per minute" ("once per five minutes" seems just way too slow; that could easily span multiple encounters), so untrained martial characters use their maneuvers once per minute; ToB classes obviously lack such limitations since they only take 1-3 rounds to recoup their maneuvers so I allow using them pretty much at will.

They work just fine out of combat. In fact, that's the primary use of some maneuvers, such as Mountain Hammer, Shadow Jaunt, all sorts of Jump-stances, some things that grant momentary flight and so on. That's really the big improvement ToB-classes have over non-ToB classes; they're much more able to "do things" out of combat with their class features. Many stances are also handy, like the mentioned Hunter's Sense; as you can stay in stances indefinitely, I suspect that might actually be the primary reason for the existence of the said stance (also great with Hearing the Air for example).


So yeah, unlimited usability out of combat for adepts, limited for characters with Martial Study.

Morty
2009-03-24, 12:20 PM
The one problem I see with using manuevers out of combat is that with Mountain Hammer, many obstacles become completely trivial for a 3rd level party.

Kyeudo
2009-03-24, 12:31 PM
The one problem I see with using manuevers out of combat is that with Mountain Hammer, many obstacles become completely trivial for a 3rd level party.

What obstacle can Mountain Hammer get through that a determined Barbarian can't? I've had a half-orc decide that going through a stone wall was the best option.

Morty
2009-03-24, 12:35 PM
What obstacle can Mountain Hammer get through that a determined Barbarian can't? I've had a half-orc decide that going through a stone wall was the best option.

Alright then, let me rephrase... even more completely trivial.

Faulty
2009-03-24, 12:38 PM
That's when the Thoqqua resting in the wall bursts out into the player's face.:smallbiggrin:

Kyeudo
2009-03-24, 12:44 PM
Alright then, let me rephrase... even more completely trivial.

They were just as trivial before. Your players just never considered how to get around them.


That's when the Thoqqua resting in the wall bursts out into the player's face.:smallbiggrin:

Yay! Free XP!

Morty
2009-03-24, 12:45 PM
They were just as trivial before. Your players just never considered how to get around them.


No, because without ToB, 3rd level parties have no means of ignoring harndess and DR.

Faulty
2009-03-24, 12:46 PM
Yay! Free XP!

The advanced fiendish half-dragon vampire Thoqqua.

Waspinator
2009-03-24, 12:47 PM
They probably could have chiseled through the wall anyway if they really wanted to using Power Attacks. Tome of Battle just speeds it up a bit.

Eldariel
2009-03-24, 12:55 PM
No, because without ToB, 3rd level parties have no means of ignoring harndess and DR.

DMG includes a pointer that you should rule that some weapons simply can't break some obstacles, no matter what. For example, I have a hard time seeing Adamantine Door falling to a Wooden Club after 30 mins of beating from a 3rd level character (that's the kind of feat a 15th - 20th level character could do).

tyckspoon
2009-03-24, 12:56 PM
No, because without ToB, 3rd level parties have no means of ignoring harndess and DR.

Adamantine arrow used as an improvised weapon. Costs 66 gp plus the neglible expense of one base arrow. It's a slightly cheesy technique since ammunition is generally priced and intended to be bought in large packs, but it's an affordable way for a low-level party to get through hardness. 1d4 + Strength ignoring hardness isn't all that different from (big weapon) + Strength +2d6 ignoring hardness if you aren't in a particularly time-pressured situation.

Kyeudo
2009-03-24, 01:02 PM
No, because without ToB, 3rd level parties have no means of ignoring harndess and DR.

Half Orc Barbarian + Greataxe + Power Attack + No rules for weapons getting dull = eventual hole in the wall. The Hardness just slows things down.

Draz74
2009-03-24, 01:03 PM
Adamantine arrow used as an improvised weapon. Costs 66 gp plus the neglible expense of one base arrow. It's a slightly cheesy technique since ammunition is generally priced and intended to be bought in large packs, but it's an affordable way for a low-level party to get through hardness. 1d4 + Strength ignoring hardness isn't all that different from (big weapon) + Strength +2d6 ignoring hardness if you aren't in a particularly time-pressured situation.

That's hilarious. And ingenious. You get the RAW-Friendly Power Gamer Skillz Award of the Day.

Tehnar
2009-03-24, 01:04 PM
I allow players to bust through 5ft of any sort of material (as long as it is up to 5 ft thick, and that they have a weapon/tool right for the job). After that thickness its up to profession (miner) for their tunneling needs. Certain effects such as Walls of X are omitted from this houserule.

Personally Ive never had a problem with players using ToB maneuvers outside of combat.

Cedrass
2009-03-24, 01:05 PM
Glad to see I'm not too easy on my players! :smallwink:

It never really broke anything, but I was just curious to see what other people thought about the matter.

Morty
2009-03-24, 02:40 PM
DMG includes a pointer that you should rule that some weapons simply can't break some obstacles, no matter what. For example, I have a hard time seeing Adamantine Door falling to a Wooden Club after 30 mins of beating from a 3rd level character (that's the kind of feat a 15th - 20th level character could do).

Hm. I've forgotten. Well, it solves this problem, ToB or no ToB.


Adamantine arrow used as an improvised weapon. Costs 66 gp plus the neglible expense of one base arrow. It's a slightly cheesy technique since ammunition is generally priced and intended to be bought in large packs, but it's an affordable way for a low-level party to get through hardness. 1d4 + Strength ignoring hardness isn't all that different from (big weapon) + Strength +2d6 ignoring hardness if you aren't in a particularly time-pressured situation.

The image of someone breaking down a wall with an arrow is quite hilarious, but nevertheless, it's a slightly cheesy method likely to get you smacked by the DM, whereas Mountain Hammer's hardness-breaking property is given right away.


Half Orc Barbarian + Greataxe + Power Attack + No rules for weapons getting dull = eventual hole in the wall. The Hardness just slows things down.

But you've got to admit, it's bound to take some time, more than when you use Mountain Hammer, which can be critical - I remember a situation in which my party was desperately trying to open a door before a Barbazu catches up with us. I'm not saying core characters don't have too easy time busting through walls by RAW, just that MH makes it even easier.

Kyeudo
2009-03-24, 02:44 PM
But you've got to admit, it's bound to take some time, more than when you use Mountain Hammer, which can be critical - I remember a situation in which my party was desperately trying to open a door before a Barbazu catches up with us. I'm not saying core characters don't have too easy time busting through walls by RAW, just that MH makes it even easier.

The wizard didn't have a scroll of Knock tucked somewhere?

Morty
2009-03-24, 02:50 PM
The wizard didn't have a scroll of Knock tucked somewhere?

Well, no. Broken spells become somewhat less broken when you don't have it memorized or on a scroll.:smallwink: The scene was quite hilarious anyway, with rogue trying to pick the lock, ranger bashing on the door with sword and wizard(me) running around ineffectually.

Oslecamo
2009-03-24, 03:22 PM
Well, no. Broken spells become somewhat less broken when you don't have it memorized or on a scroll.:smallwink:

What's so broken about a spell wich stops to be usefull if the door just has a lot of locks?(and the rogue can still bypass it, for free)

Drascin
2009-03-24, 03:41 PM
The image of someone breaking down a wall with an arrow is quite hilarious, but nevertheless, it's a slightly cheesy method likely to get you smacked by the DM, whereas Mountain Hammer's hardness-breaking property is given right away.

I'm imagining it as the dude chipping at the wall repeteadly with the arrowpoint, each hit taking down a little fragment of the wall. Think woodpecker :smallbiggrin:. And the image of a half-orc barbarian patiently chipping a wall with a bored look on his face as the rest of the party has a tea break around him is indeed rather hilarious.

CyberRebirth
2009-03-24, 03:45 PM
Well, no. Broken spells become somewhat less broken when you don't have it memorized or on a scroll.:smallwink: The scene was quite hilarious anyway, with rogue trying to pick the lock, ranger bashing on the door with sword and wizard(me) running around ineffectually.


I laughed out loud, genuinely.

I love imagining this scene.

Talya
2009-03-24, 03:57 PM
What's so broken about a spell wich stops to be usefull if the door just has a lot of locks?(and the rogue can still bypass it, for free)

The spell would still open that door with one casting. Knock affects an entire door, and everything barring it. It is "per door," not "per lock."

hiryuu
2009-03-24, 04:11 PM
The spell would still open that door with one casting. Knock affects an entire door, and everything barring it. It is "per door," not "per lock."

The key part of the spell is the last sentence, which says "Each spell can undo as many as two means of preventing egress." Putting three locks on a door prevents one knock spell from popping it.

Waspinator
2009-03-24, 04:15 PM
The adamantine arrow chiseling through walls is kind of crazy, but that's only because of the existence of unbreakable super-metal in the first place.

Keld Denar
2009-03-24, 07:35 PM
Why cast Knock when you can cast Greater Open (Disintegrate!)!

:smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2009-03-24, 07:50 PM
Any means of breaking through a stone wall is going to take time and cause a lot of noise, even if you're ignoring hardness and doing 2d6 extra damage. And anything that takes time and causes a lot of noise means rolling on the wandering monsters table. Granted, at third level the cleric could cast Silence on the barbarian first, but now you're spending spell slots on the problem, and you're still not guaranteed not to attract attention.

mostlyharmful
2009-03-25, 07:03 AM
Why cast Knock when you can cast Greater Open (Disintegrate!)!

:smallbiggrin:

At third level?:smallconfused:

Manuvers are useful at will out of combat.... horay for functional game design for the most part...:smallsmile:

Heliomance
2009-03-25, 07:15 AM
Any means of breaking through a stone wall is going to take time and cause a lot of noise, even if you're ignoring hardness and doing 2d6 extra damage. And anything that takes time and causes a lot of noise means rolling on the wandering monsters table. Granted, at third level the cleric could cast Silence on the barbarian first, but now you're spending spell slots on the problem, and you're still not guaranteed not to attract attention.

Why would it cause noise? You don't have to hit it; if you're ignoring hardness you can carve it like a knife through butter.

Tehnar
2009-03-25, 07:38 AM
The pieces of wall falling or cracking should make noise, even if the actual blow doesn't. However ignoring hardness does not mean you turn the wall into a buttery object, and I find no reason why you shouldn't make noise while hitting the wall. You could even conduct a experiment; try hitting a slab of butter really hard with a knife and see if it makes noise.