Suppose You DM a 3.5 Epic-Level Campaign...

[redzimmer]

... and your wizard PC whips out Familicide.

What do you do as a repercussion? I personally would whip out some maximized Inevitables to address the imbalance in good/evil that just got wrought.

[Chronos]

If I were to allow a spell as incredibly overpowered as Familicide in the first place, why would I penalize the wizard for its use? Remember, all epic spells (even the ones listed in the Epic Level Handbook) explicitly require individual DM approval, so it's not like that one just sneaked past the DM's notice.

[Cúchulainn]

Beat him/her to death with their spell draft paper and wonder how they even got this far when I've banned wizards from my epic campaign.

[Volkov]

My rule is, you can use any epic spell but the more powerful they are the more likely certain unscrupulous powers will notice and come for you. A culmultative %1 chance a Troupe of 5 max hit dice pit fiends/balors and accompanying max hit dice servants will come and get you per spellcraft DC of the spell.

[Anteros]

I doubt that your wizard is really worried about Balors if he can cast this spell.

[factotum]

I wouldn't allow Familicide in the first place, or if I did, it would have a spellcraft DC that would make it pretty much impossible to cast, so the point wouldn't arise. As for repercussions, it's kind of difficult to inflict those on Epic characters without bringing gods into the picture!

[KingMerv00]

...I've banned wizards from my epic campaign.

:smallfrown:

[Korwin]

If I were to allow a spell as incredibly overpowered as Familicide in the first place, why would I penalize the wizard for its use? Remember, all epic spells (even the ones listed in the Epic Level Handbook) explicitly require individual DM approval, so it's not like that one just sneaked past the DM's notice.

+1


...........

[Mr. Bean]

Prevention is better than punishment.

[LordSloth]

I would nicely ask for the character sheet and explain that their third great great aunts, sisters, cousins, great grandmother was half dragon. :smallyuk:

[Volkov]

I doubt that your wizard is really worried about Balors if he can cast this spell.

A 60 hit dice balor with 40 levels in black guard is more than a match for any wizard to have ever existed, period.

[tKircher]

I'd make the penalty so severe, or the components so hard to acquire, that it wouldn't be worth the trouble. At Epic level, most dragons could be killed 'by hand' faster and cheaper than the Familicide spell (if i were to allow it).

And even if they did use it, they'd have to contend with other dragon races (both chromatic and metallic) who took offense to it. Not to mention other creatures besides dragons...

Metagaming it so that it's disallowed is just cheap. PCs should be able to do anything at that level, just make it so that it's not worth their time to do some things. Same idea as incantations.

I mean, you could disallow Fireball because it has the capacity to destroy a small village, but why bother when you can make the consequences so dire nobody'll do it?

[Volkov]

Also for every point of dc that the spell is above 60 I give the incoming fiends a level in black guard. Though I also use inevitable's with levels in duskblade.

[King of Nowhere]

As for repercussions, it's kind of difficult to inflict those on Epic characters without bringing gods into the picture!

I established as a part of my campaign world that once an epic party dared to rob the merchant's guild, and the guild put a bounty of 50 million gp on each of their trapped souls. They got swarmed by a thousand high level adventurers, and their souls trapped in gems are still exposed in the guild's main storehouse. That happened 200 years ago, and nobody ever tryed to slight the guild again.
So, you can bring repercussions on epic characters, and it's not even so difficult, once you established that in the world there are other high level (or epic) adventurers, and they may have other loialties.
After all, it makes sense, and is explicitly written on the DM manual, that high level characters should not run out of control; the DM should assure that they cannot do what they want, because there's always someone or something more powerful than them.

For familicide, I'd say some good churces decided to banish a crusade against your evilness, putting like a dozen clerics of level 17+, each of them with their adventuring group, behind you. I may feel free to add some order of paladins for a couple of level 20 paladins, or another epic adventuring group. I suppose there are about 20-30 epic characters in the world, and about half a thousand of level 15-20, and they ALL gang up against you.
Or, I may put an ancient dragon with 20 class levels.

Anyway, I hate epic spells, and I probably would rule them out in favor of 10th, 11th level slots, improved metamagic feats and such.

[Volkov]

I have sent a mated pair of Prismatic dragon with 36 virtual age categories and their 5 24 virtual age category kids, against my epic party for using their oh so crafty spell of "meteor calling", dropped a 1,000 foot meteor on a major metropolis, obliterating it utterly. The Dragon whupped their sorry butts.

[Wikimaster]

I established as a part of my campaign world that once an epic party dared to rob the merchant's guild, and the guild put a bounty of 50 million gp on each of their trapped souls. They got swarmed by a thousand high level adventurers, and their souls trapped in gems are still exposed in the guild's main storehouse. That happened 200 years ago, and nobody ever tryed to slight the guild again.
So, you can bring repercussions on epic characters, and it's not even so difficult, once you established that in the world there are other high level (or epic) adventurers, and they may have other loialties.
After all, it makes sense, and is explicitly written on the DM manual, that high level characters should not run out of control; the DM should assure that they cannot do what they want, because there's always someone or something more powerful than them.

For familicide, I'd say some good churces decided to banish a crusade against your evilness, putting like a dozen clerics of level 17+, each of them with their adventuring group, behind you. I may feel free to add some order of paladins for a couple of level 20 paladins, or another epic adventuring group. I suppose there are about 20-30 epic characters in the world, and about half a thousand of level 15-20, and they ALL gang up against you.
Or, I may put an ancient dragon with 20 class levels.

Anyway, I hate epic spells, and I probably would rule them out in favor of 10th, 11th level slots, improved metamagic feats and such.

You can also make sure that each group has someone who is related to the offending adventuring pary, just in case they try to use familicide again.

[Volkov]

Could Uber V take on a Prismatic dragon who has 36 virtual age categories *for a grand total of 48 age categories* I just want to be sure so that I can use these beings to take out any familicide users.

[Snake-Aes]

I have sent a mated pair of Prismatic dragon with 36 virtual age categories and their 5 24 virtual age category kids, against my epic party for using their oh so crafty spell of "meteor calling", dropped a 1,000 foot meteor on a major metropolis, obliterating it utterly. The Dragon whupped their sorry butts.
A 300 meters meteor would destroy much, much more. Thinking on the lines of wiping out the city with the impact alone, and the tremor + dust clouds would extent for a few hundred kilometers.

For me? That's an invitation to play "Dodge the god's lightning for the rest of the week" play. Though a couple CL 50 prismatic dragons are fun fun fun too.

[Volkov]

A 300 meters meteor would destroy much, much more. Thinking on the lines of wiping out the city with the impact alone, and the tremor + dust clouds would extent for a few hundred kilometers.

For me? That's an invitation to play "Dodge the god's lightning for the rest of the week" play. Though a couple CL 50 prismatic dragons are fun fun fun too.

My party never wanted to hear the word "prismatic" again after I taught them a lesson. Then the wizard summoned a Volcano, after that I had a large army of angry Inevitables chase them, Maruts, Quaruts, Kolyrauts, the whole nine yards. Every type of inevitable, from every sourcebook.

[Snake-Aes]

Could Uber V take on a Prismatic dragon who has 36 virtual age categories *for a grand total of 48 age categories* I just want to be sure so that I can use these beings to take out any familicide users.

I wouldn't think it's that troublesome, actually. If you really want to put familicide into a reasonable DC, you'll probably want to make it with an insane aoe seed, plus the ad hoc of tracking the oldest living ancestor then pinpointing each of it's offspring.And that before the momento mori-esque spanking. Such a spell would have a dc that, just to be cast, warrants making a whole city of level 17+ wizards just to give up their spell slots to make it castable. Or a 2 years ritual.
Really? There aren't that many casters, much less willing casters ;p

[Volkov]

I wouldn't think it's that troublesome, actually. If you really want to put familicide into a reasonable DC, you'll probably want to make it with an insane aoe seed, plus the ad hoc of tracking the oldest living ancestor then pinpointing each of it's offspring.And that before the momento mori-esque spanking. Such a spell would have a dc that, just to be cast, warrants making a whole city of level 17+ wizards just to give up their spell slots to make it castable. Or a 2 years ritual.
Really? There aren't that many casters, much less willing casters ;p

I'm afraid if I brought out Atropus, the wizard would find a spell to blow the 700 mile moonlet into quintillions of head sized pieces in one shot.

[Snake-Aes]

I'm afraid if I brought out Atropus, the wizard would find a spell to blow the 700 mile moonlet into quintillions of head sized pieces in one shot.
Like I said, it's all about resources. No epic spell can be cast if they are too expensive to. Take a simple 300d6 damage fireball. Good luck having it cast if vecna himself won't make the +250something check.

Personally I have allowed my wizard friend to craft an epic spell that, basically, wipes out the atmosphere of a planet. Once he spent the time, xp and gold to research it, I showed him the spell's dc. To this day he doesn't talk about it.

[V'icternus]

Personally, I'd reward the PC's power by allowing it to work.

I would then give him a list of reasons why the Gods decided to team up to kill him, and tell him to roll up a new level 1 character.

"Gods attack. You die."

[King of Nowhere]

crafty spell of "meteor calling", dropped a 1,000 foot meteor on a major metropolis, obliterating it utterly.

So they researched a spell that makes "rock falls. Everyone dies"?

[Snake-Aes]

So they researched a spell that makes "rock falls. Everyone dies"?

Worked with the Dinosaurs.

[Satyr]

That one is easy - the spell suddely proves that the character's family has a certain uncle who was never mentioned as he was some kind of an embarassment because of his promiscuity. All his descendants- including the character's mother, all siblings and the character himself are related to the spell's target. Related enough to make the spell work.

[MuLepton]

Hm.

I suddenly started wondering about the heritage of V's adopted children for some reason... :/

[Shadowcaller]

If I were to allow a spell as incredibly overpowered as Familicide in the first place, why would I penalize the wizard for its use? Remember, all epic spells (even the ones listed in the Epic Level Handbook) explicitly require individual DM approval, so it's not like that one just sneaked past the DM's notice.

I'm going to quote and agree with what Chronos said.

[saevitia]

I don't think I'd allow it.

If I did, there would certainly be some unexpected branches on that family tree. ;)

[The Minx]

Like I said, it's all about resources. No epic spell can be cast if they are too expensive to. Take a simple 300d6 damage fireball. Good luck having it cast if vecna himself won't make the +250something check.

Personally I have allowed my wizard friend to craft an epic spell that, basically, wipes out the atmosphere of a planet. Once he spent the time, xp and gold to research it, I showed him the spell's dc. To this day he doesn't talk about it.

This is the right way. This, and the fact that each Epic spell needs individual approval. It makes little sense to first allow a spell and then punish people for using it. Of course, there could be consequences anyway, after all that sort of thing is likely to draw the anger of many.

EDIT: personally I would probably not allow that spell.

[Snake-Aes]

I like a lot the ritual part of magic, and as such I allow my casters to spend an extended period of time to alter magic (often reproducing a metamagic feat, but not restricted to that). If said wizard friend wanted to give that bye-atmosphere spell a usable dc, he could totally make a lengthy ritual, involving maybe a couple virgin sacrifices and even building ANOTHER campaign around it (as if he was the villain preparing his doomsday device!). I'd just request that said ritual couldn't be something too subtle, so making the heroes of the world react to it would be plausible.

[Kai Maera]

Now, I can understand the want to punish the player. You are, apparently, all the kinds of DMs who don't play for a story, but rather to feel powerful.
...but Prismatic dragons? Inevitables? None of those make any sense to send on a player for using Familicide on a black dragon.

Inevitables all have designated uses, and denying them that is effectively slapping the face of the developers; you can choose a different monster, so why send would you send inevitables?
"Kolyaruts mete out punishment to those who break bargains and oaths,
Maruts confront those who would try to deny the grave itself, and
Zelekhuts are charged with hunting down those who would deny justice—especially those who flee to escape punishment" -- none of which an epic caster counts as, unless s/he is a lich.

And to say other dragon types (the other chromatics, metallics, and epic varieties) would be offended is rather silly; the chromatics are evil and thus don't care about each other, the metallics are good and thus don't care about evil dragons, and both of the epic dragons are not only unrelated to black dragons, but they don't even live on the same plane as most dragons.

So, I offer this option: Ironic justice.

Your player has dropped a giant meteor on a nearby city. Let him face the enormous blast, chilling cold, and possible worldwide loss of life.

Your player has removed the atmosphere from a planet. Let him be hit by the unhindered rays of the nearest star.

Your player has cast familicide on black dragons... Of course Tiamat would be angered; all dragons are her children. And of course the irony that both sorceror and wizard powers in D&D are attributed to draconic heritage.

Just, please, don't throw "60 hit die balors with 40 levels of blackguard" at players; make it something that actually has to do with the scenario.

[Yellow]

I would laugh, say "Awesome spell bro!" and continue to let my players enjoy their game.

[King of Nowhere]

Now, I can understand the want to punish the player. You are, apparently, all the kinds of DMs who don't play for a story, but rather to feel powerful.

No, I play for a story, and exactly for that reason I must punish the characters who do such things. Because in the world there are other powerful beings/associations, even more powerful than them no matter how epic they are, and they better not piss them.
I don't need to feel powerful. I am already powerful, and I can aleady do what I want to the group. But since I like the story, it would not be reasonable that someone can wreack such havock on the world and everyone else is just gonna stand and whatch and keep minding their business like nothing happened



Just, please, don't throw "60 hit die balors with 40 levels of blackguard" at players; make it something that actually has to do with the scenario.
On that I agree with you. The punishment should not be some random unlikely even, but a direct consequence of your actions. Balors have no reason to come after you for familicide (they should be happy someone use this spell on a regular base). The two ideas I proposed (churches got scared and ban a crusade, or an extremely powerful dragon that survived the spell that killed all the other members of his family) fit well into a campaign world (especially in mine).

[Laughing Dragon]

To continue to honor the story is the height of good DMing.

So, in this particular case ... who's to say that at least some of the black dragons (or hybreds) didn't have friends/associates? I know that if a valuable member of my party was killed (perhaps permanently) I would seek the one who caused their death, and begin my own plots against their life.

It was exactly this tactic that I used against a party I DM'ed for. When they began a campaign (purely for XP) against a specific race, the allies of that race took notice and began harrassing the party (with occaisonal deadly consequences). As soon as they figured out that there was a pattern, they stepped away from they're previous campaign.

And besides, it doesn't always take an epic to defeat an epic ... it's all a matter of timing (as the ABD showed when she attacked V in the first place).

[Mystyco]

I'd allow any epic spell to be cast, regardless of the power or consequences, carrying out an extreme plot twist in some border cases. still, no stopping players from destryoing a whole family tree of black dragons unless i have an extremely good reason (NO EASY PLOT ESCAPES, THAT'S FOR SURE).

[Volkov]

I just got back from a game session, the Idiots that are the epic party spell casters just failed to stop Pandorym's mind from becoming Free, well the upside is I found something that can make them run for their lives. Downside is, the wizard's going to kill this bad guy too. :smallfrown:

[keybounce]

I personally like the idea of Tiamat leading an army of dragons against the caster in retribution.

Just make sure that everyone is from a different family.

You know, too dangerous to be allowed to live.

Either that, or someone commissions a wish spell to wish for the caster's .... (Imprisonment? Death? What do you permit with a wish spell?)

[MorhgorRB]

Either that, or someone commissions a wish spell to wish for the caster's .... (Imprisonment? Death? What do you permit with a wish spell?)


For the caster to be standing below a cloud, which is now going to rain vorpal daggers of spell storing, command word being ow, and containing disintegration. :smallwink:

[Paseo H]

I would forbid it, because the players should not want to do cool things unless I, the DM, allow them to want it. Because *I* am the Big Dawg Daddy! Because *I* am the Lawgiver! The moment you sit at my table, I alone determine right and wrong. The moment you sit at my table, I am God. Do not even think of breathing unless I allow it. And if you even think of questioning my will? How dare you think to bring your impertinence and willfulness to my domain?!

Ah, it's so great being a DM.

[V'icternus]

As... scary, as that last post was, it's true. The DM has ultimate say on what happens. They're the ones that make the GODS do what they tell them to, so I'm fairly certain they can say "Your spell backfires, and a large rift opens in the world. It leads to *Insert plot-hook here*"

[JJ48]

"Your spell starts annihilating <CREATURE RELATED TO TARGET>s all over the world. Several of the bolts of pink lightning streak towards a family gathering one of the creatures was throwing. Unfortunately, the creature's great-uncle twice removed is an epic-level spellcaster of obscenely high level, and, not wanting the party to be interrupted by outsiders who view their creature race as evil, he set up an epic magical barrier when the party began, that reflects all spells back towards the caster. As there were 200 targets at the party who all had their own pink lightning bolts headed at them, which were all reflected, I hope you have REALLY good luck with your saving throws..."

Actually, I'd probably just go with "wouldn't allow it to begin with" or "would have costs so high that anyone who can actually manage it DESERVES to succeed", but I felt like this way might be more interesting.

[V'icternus]

Personally, I still like the "Here's a list of reasons why the Gods, Demons, Devils and Daemons all teamed up to kill you." thing.

I mean, they wanted an epic battle, right? Well, break out those rulebooks, because this is gonna be one complicated (yet short) battle.

Which is why I, as a player, took it upon my slef to never, ever tick off the DM.

...Unfourtunately, my fellow players, on the other hand, I do sometimes tick off... (Me = Cleric. My "friend" = Half-Orc Barbarian in a rage. Me = Mush on wall of dungeon)

[JJ48]

The only bad thing about sending a mob of enemies is, then you mix in potentially innocent parties, since not everyone necessarily agreed with the spellcaster's decision to cast such a spell.

If that happened to my party while I was a member, then as the chaotic good bard, I'd see if I could strike up a deal with the mobs to let us go if I let them watch me beat the mage into negative hitpoints by striking him repeatedly over the head with my lute, then turned him over to their tender care.

[Silverraptor]

I can't imagine the kind of power epic players could wield. I'd be throwing titans at them atleast once a week and still feel underpowered.

[Kyouhen]

I'd let them pull this off just because it would be cool, though my strategies for punishment would be a little more creative than simply having the entire nation of dragons come after them. After all, what's one more Familicide? A huge chunk of your army is now gone. No, what I would do is have Tiamat (or whatever other ticked off being) create an undead creature from one of the caster's distant relatives, then alter their minds to think whatever you want. Don't like the demilich that's trying to kill you for angering it's god and to protect it's great-great-great grandchildren? Go on, use Familicide. I dare you. :smallamused:

[JJ48]

I'd let them pull this off just because it would be cool, though my strategies for punishment would be a little more creative than simply having the entire nation of dragons come after them. After all, what's one more Familicide? A huge chunk of your army is now gone. No, what I would do is have Tiamat (or whatever other ticked off being) create an undead creature from one of the caster's distant relatives, then alter their minds to think whatever you want. Don't like the demilich that's trying to kill you for angering it's god and to protect it's great-great-great grandchildren? Go on, use Familicide. I dare you. :smallamused:

You'd have to give them a reason to want to use Familicide, rather than another destructive spell, though. How about an entire undead LEGION of dead folks related to the spellcaster? So they'll realize that they either have to face the entire swarm with lesser spells, which will run out eventually, or cast a doomsday spell like Familicide that will kill them as well. How deliciously ironic...in one common usage of the word.

[grautry]

Wait, what?

I just read the thread and I'm still reeling from all the "Oh man I'd so make them pay" responses.

Repeat after me: RPG's are not a contest between the players and a GM. They're a cooperative effort to have fun with your friends. For the wizard to cast the spell at all you have to explicitly allow it. Punishing the players for something that you agreed with is just not cool on your part.

The responses about war being declared on the players are certainly right. But the way you frame it - as a punishment - isn't. Don't look at a major event like that as a contest between you and players, see it as one of the best story opportunities ever.

So what would happen were I to DM? Epic war(the below assumes the characters are good, just flip the ally/enemy responses around for an evil party).

The players have just shown that they're epic characters whose usefulness is not in dispensing cryptic wisdom and generally sitting around being all powerful while lesser heroes lay down their lives to fight evil. They're epic characters that are willing to take action, drastic action, if necessary.

Which makes them a perfect ally for everyone who agrees with their actions. Churches propose alliances, send clerics and paladins to aid the characters, asking for them to lead a crusade against evil. Druidic circles take note, asking the the players whenever evil too powerful to be confronted by them threatens nature. Wizard schools, fighter academies, thieves' guilds - they all beg for the characters to teach and learn, to show what they accomplished to inspire the next generation. Deities send their avatars, to tell the characters of the great evils of the world that they can help to destroy.

And of course, the enemies. Offended chromatic dragons form armies against the characters, to strike them down. Demons and devils see that the characters represent a threat to evil everywhere and travel to the material plane of the characters to wage war. Evil deities send avatars not to aid and guide but to kill. Ancient evils awaken as they feel a tide of cataclysmic magic wash over the world, stirring them from their sleep.

Not to mention the consequences that are not specifically aligned with helping or hindering the characters. Death of so many potent beings at once resonates all across the plane. The magic that was bound within the dragons' bodies flows freely, amplifying magic all over the world and making it wilder, more uncontrolled. Or perhaps, for reasons unknown, all the power of the fallen dragons finds itself a mortal vessel - and the world has to contend with someone unable to control their power, but who is at the same time, the most powerful mortal ever. Perhaps the plane itself shifts just a little, becoming more aligned with forces of decay and death. Undead rise from the graves in massive numbers. Necromancy is more potent than ever. Seers and sages whisper of the prophecies that foretold the death of a major dragon bloodline and warn of apocalyptic events that are to come.

And that's just what I can think of in five minutes. Give me a couple of days, and man, I'd craft a story where this one event launches a campaign that shakes the very foundations of the multiverse.

[Kyouhen]

You'd have to give them a reason to want to use Familicide, rather than another destructive spell, though. How about an entire undead LEGION of dead folks related to the spellcaster? So they'll realize that they either have to face the entire swarm with lesser spells, which will run out eventually, or cast a doomsday spell like Familicide that will kill them as well. How deliciously ironic...in one common usage of the word.

"If I don't kill you then Tiamat will destroy all of my descendants. For their sakes, I must not allow you to live!"

If any PC capable of using Familicide to torment their enemies doesn't charge headlong into this they deserve to get off easy by killing the undead with a few simple destructive spells. :smallwink:

[rgrekejin]

I would probably accuse them of being unoriginal.

[JJ48]

Repeat after me: RPG's are not a contest between the players and a GM. They're a cooperative effort to have fun with your friends. For the wizard to cast the spell at all you have to explicitly allow it. Punishing the players for something that you agreed with is just not cool on your part.

You are, of course, assuming that the DM is Lawful Good. What if he is, instead, Lawful Evil, and allows the players to do things specifically so he could take vengeance against them?

[Nerdanel]

I would allow Familicide. As has been said, it's a great plot hook for further adventures. Cast at your own risk. You're going to annoy powerful characters, possibly even a god if you aim high enough, and that is going to generate many challenging encounters for you if they manage to track you down. No instant deaths by silly things like attacks by multiple incarnate deities though unless the players are high level enough to have a chance against it. A vengeful god would like to toy with you or would delegate the responsibility of delivering punishment to underlings, and most normal opponents couldn't crush you the epic caster just like that.

[grautry]

You are, of course, assuming that the DM is Lawful Good. What if he is, instead, Lawful Evil, and allows the players to do things specifically so he could take vengeance against them?

Depends on what this vengeance is.

If the result is that tons of gods appear, rocks fall and everyone dies then he's the sort of unpleasant fellow who'll soon find that either he has no players or he only has players that are spineless wimps who will tolerate when someone walks all over them.

If this 'vengeance' is an epic story that stems from the vast consequences of casting a spell of such magnitude and everyone in general has fun with it, then that's pretty the type of story I'd run and described in my post above.

[BlueWizard]

If it were allowed, perhaps it hurts the PC in the long run.

My epic PCs have done a lot of great things with their ultimate powers they regretted later... sometimes immediately.

[V'icternus]

I say if it screws up any plot you may have planned, or just plain cheats, the revenge should be directly proportionate as to how much it annoyed you at the time. And I say this as a player, who would most likely be on the receiving end of this painful and disturbing smiting.

Of course, you can spread it out, make it reasonable, do whatever. The response isn't likely to happen instantly. But, in the event of Epic Spells that do way too much for their own good, it can very well cause a group of Gods/Demons/Devils/whatever to take notice. And by "take notice" I mean "team up in an effort to put a stop to the omni-powerful adventurer who likes killing just a little too much".

[snafu]

A 300 meters meteor would destroy much, much more. Thinking on the lines of wiping out the city with the impact alone, and the tremor + dust clouds would extent for a few hundred kilometers.

http://simulator.down2earth.eu/#

I ran this for a 300m meteor of dense rock coming in vertically at 17m/s (typical asteroid speed) and striking sedimentary rock.

Play around with changing the position of the observer and decide where you reckon is a safe distance. The pressure wave will be blowing out windows 100km away from the impact site.

The impact energy is comparable to a limited nuclear war of some 1500 megatons - but the global damage will be less since it's all in one place, and there's no fallout. For comparison, Tambora was about 800 megatons, Krakatoa was about 200 megatons, and the largest H-bomb ever detonated was 50 megatons. It's not an extinction-level event - the dino-killer was a hundred thousand times as energetic as this impact - but it'll give you a cold winter and a cool summer, and poor harvests worldwide.

Let the heroes continue adventuring, and see the global famine they have wrought with their reckless magic.

[Ancalagon]

Why do most people here think there must be some "punishment" of some sort via some "high level voodoo"?

Just show people the consequences of their actions.

Show them how their spell killed good people who run an orphanage, show them their spell killed innocents, show them... that evil is not cool. Do not whip out some fancy monsters with a bazillion HD but simply let the spell have visible consequences in the world.
Evil is not cool and as soon as you make that point clear to the player or character they do not WANT to do it again.

Bringing monsters in that are able to reduce the characters hitpoints is one consequence. Showing them that using a spell as "familicide" is a deed of a real jerk and that character who did it is not "cool" but simply an utter "jerk" for doing it will be a much more intersting thing to do.
Rolling down a character with a dice (or a heap of dice) is boring. Having the world reflect what is done by your characters is the way to do.

[The MunchKING]

Why do most people here think there must be some "punishment" of some sort via some "high level voodoo"?

Because PCs who would use Familicide probably aren't the type to care about consequences that hit other people?


Just show people the consequences of their actions.

Show them how their spell killed good people who run an orphanage, show them their spell killed innocents, show them... that evil is not cool.

If I used it on "Always Evil" Black Dragons, I would be REALLY supprised if all the sudden there were large numbers of them running orphanages,a nd hospitals and helping the poor and the sick.

ESPECIALLY if we didn't start this campaign at Epic and Black Dragons had always been evil BEFORE.



Do not whip out some fancy monsters with a bazillion HD but simply let the spell have visible consequences in the world.
Evil is not cool and as soon as you make that point clear to the player or character they do not WANT to do it again.

Says who? Lots of players like being evil to NPCs. It indulges their power fantasies. And if the GM's OK with running an Evil charecter game, there's nothing really wrong with that...

But the point is even if evil in-and-of-itself isn't cool, world-warping magic IS. If you have to be evil to use it, Some players will to be that cool.


Bringing monsters in that are able to reduce the characters hitpoints is one consequence. Showing them that using a spell as "familicide" is a deed of a real jerk and that character who did it is not "cool" but simply an utter "jerk" for doing it will be a much more intersting thing to do.

But less likely to stop anyone who would have researched Familicide in the first place.


Rolling down a character with a dice (or a heap of dice) is boring. Having the world reflect what is done by your characters is the way to do.

But quickly can make the place unbearable for the other players. Or any long term strategies you had.

[Adeptus]

Hm.

I suddenly started wondering about the heritage of V's adopted children for some reason... :/

This is what my spouse immediately thought of as well.

[Volkov]

http://simulator.down2earth.eu/#

I ran this for a 300m meteor of dense rock coming in vertically at 17m/s (typical asteroid speed) and striking sedimentary rock.

Play around with changing the position of the observer and decide where you reckon is a safe distance. The pressure wave will be blowing out windows 100km away from the impact site.

The impact energy is comparable to a limited nuclear war of some 1500 megatons - but the global damage will be less since it's all in one place, and there's no fallout. For comparison, Tambora was about 800 megatons, Krakatoa was about 200 megatons, and the largest H-bomb ever detonated was 50 megatons. It's not an extinction-level event - the dino-killer was a hundred thousand times as energetic as this impact - but it'll give you a cold winter and a cool summer, and poor harvests worldwide.

Let the heroes continue adventuring, and see the global famine they have wrought with their reckless magic.
I did, and the wizard still doesn't feel much guilt, the Cleric, Paladin, Druid, & Ranger won't let him live it down however. And they do their bests to beat a sense of guilt into him.

[Volkov]

http://simulator.down2earth.eu/#

I ran this for a 300m meteor of dense rock coming in vertically at 17m/s (typical asteroid speed) and striking sedimentary rock.

Play around with changing the position of the observer and decide where you reckon is a safe distance. The pressure wave will be blowing out windows 100km away from the impact site.

The impact energy is comparable to a limited nuclear war of some 1500 megatons - but the global damage will be less since it's all in one place, and there's no fallout. For comparison, Tambora was about 800 megatons, Krakatoa was about 200 megatons, and the largest H-bomb ever detonated was 50 megatons. It's not an extinction-level event - the dino-killer was a hundred thousand times as energetic as this impact - but it'll give you a cold winter and a cool summer, and poor harvests worldwide.

Let the heroes continue adventuring, and see the global famine they have wrought with their reckless magic.
I did, and the wizard still doesn't feel much guilt, the Cleric, Paladin, Druid, & Ranger won't let him live it down however. And they do their bests to beat a sense of guilt into him.

[DoctorJest]

I don't understand all the negativity about this level of power in this thread. I've run and played in games where this kind of power was readily available. I don't particularly see a problem with it. I just work on the assumption that if that kind of power is available to the PCs, the same level of power is available to the NPCs as well. Epic level problems require Epic level solutions.

[DoctorJest]

Now, I can understand the want to punish the player.

I don't understand the desire to punish players. As a GM my goal is to challenge the players, not punish them.

[quick_comment]

A 60 hit dice balor with 40 levels in black guard is more than a match for any wizard to have ever existed, period.

Greater Celerity.

Maximized Timestop.

Ice Assassin(The balor attacking me) via scroll.

Gate(Titan)

Gate(Umbral Blot)

Teleport Away.

[brilliantlight]

A 60 hit dice balor with 40 levels in black guard is more than a match for any wizard to have ever existed, period.

Am I the only one who thinks the archfiends are just too wimpy when the EPH was released? Bel is only a CR20 devil, he might be a jumped up pit fiend but he should be the toughest pit fiend out there and he is just a run of the mill one. I give them at least 20-30 character levels on top of what they normally have in my games. If you summon Asmodemus via epic spells he is fully buffed has at least 6 pit fiends with class levels with him and he can summon pit fiends at will. Demogorgan would be fully buffed with at least 6 balors and could summon them at will as well. Both could cast epic spells and would have any spell in the EPH that they have enough spellcraft to cast safely.

[GoC]

I say let them reshape the world if they want. Spark a god war over this too (if the PCs don't side with someone then they're as good as dead). Lots of fun.


A 60 hit dice balor with 40 levels in black guard is more than a match for any wizard to have ever existed, period.
:smallconfused:
Level 1 kobold Wizard.
Locate City bomb.
Level 22 Sorceror with Epic Leadership and Epic Spellcasting.
Celerity+Rod Maximinized Timestop+Shaped Antimagic Field on familiar+Forcecage+Resiliant Sphere. This works against anything smaller than huge that can't cast in an antimagic field.
Gate chain Solars and titans.
Ice Assassin


Also for every point of dc that the spell is above 60 I give the incoming fiends a level in black guard. Though I also use inevitable's with levels in duskblade.
Good luck explaining exactly how that Balor got 1000 levels in blackguard.


Could Uber V take on a Prismatic dragon who has 36 virtual age categories *for a grand total of 48 age categories* I just want to be sure so that I can use these beings to take out any familicide users.
That's a pretty high-cosmic campaign you're running. Even that is still killable though.

[Dixieboy]

For familicide, I'd say some good churces decided to banish a crusade against your evilness, putting like a dozen clerics of level 17+, each of them with their adventuring group, behind you. I may feel free to add some order of paladins for a couple of level 20 paladins, or another epic adventuring group. I suppose there are about 20-30 epic characters in the world, and about half a thousand of level 15-20, and they ALL gang up against you.
Or, I may put an ancient dragon with 20 class levels.

Give me ONE good church in an established who would wage a crusade against someone who just killed a family of evil beings, i am using evil beings since it is way easier to just fireball them peasants.
Most evil churches would just praise you for finding a good way of killing people, offcourse unless you killed something that was a great inconvenience to them. (And something causing an evil church to go on a crusade against is hardly evil, unless you just brought the world order in peril)
I can think of none.

But else, why have repercussions for it?
How would anyone know?
If you have the time to cast familicide (And spell slots) you'd have the time and spellslots to lob a couple of magic missiles at witnesses

[The MunchKING]

:smallconfused:
Level 1 kobold Wizard.
Locate City bomb.

The "Locate city bomb" at least as it was described to me, didn't work below 15th level. And even if it worked EXACTLY as was explained to me (even though a few people offered reasons it shouldn't) is 30d6+2 really going to take down a 100 HD creature? Hheck no, it just ticks it off a bit.

[Volkov]

The "Locate city bomb" at least as it was described to me, didn't work below 15th level. And even if it worked EXACTLY as was explained to me (even though a few people offered reasons it shouldn't) is 30d6+2 really going to take down a 100 HD creature? Hheck no, it just ticks it off a bit.

Plus wouldn't a bomb be ineffective against a creature that's immune to fire, and has damage reduction to reduce the shockwave's effect and massively reduce the injury from the shrapnel. Though unless it took some feats in fast healing whatever injury he takes will stay for the rest of the 8-24 cycle. Also, 60d8 hit dice plus 40d10s makes for enough hit points to out do most dragons even before you apply stuff like improved toughness, epic toughness, toughness, con-score, and any other source of bonus hit points.

For a Pit fiend I would simply take 54d8 hit dice, the maximum for pit fiends, and 46 black guard levels. For Bel I did this but had wayyyy more class levels. Don't worry the gods are similarly powerful. I lost An Elder Evil and too many abominations to count to them. The Elder evil in question were the hulks of Zoretha. Which was their last non-epic major foe. Their first three Abominations killed were An Infernal, an Atropal, and a xixecal, in that order.

I wanted to end with the hulks of Zoretha but my group begged me to continue, and roughly a year and four months later here we are. Slaughtering white dragons like it's nobodies business.

[King of Nowhere]

Give me ONE good church in an established who would wage a crusade against someone who just killed a family of evil beings, i am using evil beings since it is way easier to just fireball them peasants.


Because I totally hate the idea that the pc can wander around and decide to zap someone basing on the color of his skin, or the pointiness of his teeth. Therefore, in my campaign world, the "always evil" tag applies only to demons and devils. The "often evil" may apply to mind flayers, if I decide to put them in my campaign. And I gave the pcs a campaign where they have to defend some peaceful tribes of good orcs from an evil elf overlord, just to make this point clear. They will mostly fight bounty hunters of pc races.
I understand I don't run a common setting, but I like it that way, and the players too.

So, in my campaign about half of the black dragons are not evil, and there's no way familicide can be used only against evil beings. That's why a good church can be quite pissed for it. The very fact that you researched it is a really bad sign.




But else, why have repercussions for it?
How would anyone know?
If you have the time to cast familicide (And spell slots) you'd have the time and spellslots to lob a couple of magic missiles at witnesses

Sorry, there are too much divination spells to avoid identification when you kill some hundreds of dragons...

[Volkov]

Because I totally hate the idea that the pc can wander around and decide to zap someone basing on the color of his skin, or the pointiness of his teeth. Therefore, in my campaign world, the "always evil" tag applies only to demons and devils. The "often evil" may apply to mind flayers, if I decide to put them in my campaign. And I gave the pcs a campaign where they have to defend some peaceful tribes of good orcs from an evil elf overlord, just to make this point clear. They will mostly fight bounty hunters of pc races.
I understand I don't run a common setting, but I like it that way, and the players too.

So, in my campaign about half of the black dragons are not evil, and there's no way familicide can be used only against evil beings. That's why a good church can be quite pissed for it. The very fact that you researched it is a really bad sign.




Sorry, there are too much divination spells to avoid identification when you kill some hundreds of dragons...
Nit pick time, oh boy! :smallsmile: cracks fingers but ends up breaking them off Well darn, that wasn't supposed to happen.

Because you said you only said Demons and Devils, Demodands, and most of all Yugoloths who are the original evils, might not be evil in your campaign settings.

[Undead Prince]

Personally I have allowed my wizard friend to craft an epic spell that, basically, wipes out the atmosphere of a planet. Once he spent the time, xp and gold to research it, I showed him the spell's dc. To this day he doesn't talk about it.


That's impossible. Yep, simply impossible. Because the time, xp and gold cost are all a derivative of the DC of the spell. Once you showed him the costs, he would immediately be able to calculate the DC, realise he couldn't cast the spell, and reject your oh-so-generous offer.

Anyway, what sort of a player leaves spell research to his DM? Was he so ignorant of the rules he couldn't put the spell together himself?


That one is easy - the spell suddely proves that the character's family has a certain uncle who was never mentioned as he was some kind of an embarassment because of his promiscuity. All his descendants- including the character's mother, all siblings and the character himself are related to the spell's target. Related enough to make the spell work.

That's metagaming and Deus ex Machina at the same time.

With this kind of approach, you can ruin any game for any player. Low-level PCs cleared a goblin village? Well whaddaya know, the goblins were favourite pets of a nearby Ancient Green Dragon. Hello, TPK. Mid-level PCs defeated a demon? He had buddies all over the Lower Planes. TPK. High-level PCs took over a country? A nearby superpower lead by a coven of Dracoliches decides to invade, TPK. Epic PC did something the DM didn't like? The PC dies for no good reason other than the DM's inability to keep pace with the players and challenge them adequately from within the campaign setting.


Suppose You DM a 3.5 Epic-Level Campaign... ... and your wizard PC whips out Familicide.

What do you do as a repercussion? I personally would whip out some maximized Inevitables to address the imbalance in good/evil that just got wrought.

All right.

Question #1: WHY does it deserve a "repercussion"? Non-epic dragons are nothing to an epic wizard. In the case of OoTS, V is so high level, he didn't even get XP for wasting all those reptiles. It's like he stepped on some bugs. And the same would be true for ANY wizard who could cast something as insanely high-DC as Familicide as we see it in the comiv.

Good/Evil? Over the course of their career, adventurers slay so many creatures of alignments opposite to their own, they've definitely created "imbalance". Is it a reason to send some arbitrary monsters just to punish the players for doing something the DM thinks he can't handle? And yes, I view the Inevitables as arbitrary in this context.

The consequences of a player's actions should be logical and clearly stem from the world they're playing in. E.g. in the current OoTS storyarc, friends of the slain dragons and the evil dragon goddess Tiamat are probably the only creatures that would consider wreaking vengeance upon V for casting Familicide. And for their involvement, there are strict rules.

A PC casting Familicide against a Black Dragon would realise this, take this to mind, and take it into account in his calculations. Any consequences beyond what the player can, and should by the rules of the setting, anticipate is DM voluntarism and prone to break the game.

Question #2: What LEVEL of "repercussion"? Is it something he can handle (and get some real XP from in the process)? Is it something he can at least get away from? Or is it just a kick in the nads accompanied by *And don't ever do that again*?

Seriously though, railroading DMs who arbitrarily punish players for thinking out of the box are far worse than metagamers/munchkins.

[The MunchKING]

That's impossible. Yep, simply impossible. Because the time, xp and gold cost are all a derivative of the DC of the spell. Once you showed him the costs, he would immediately be able to calculate the DC, realise he couldn't cast the spell, and reject your oh-so-generous offer.

Anyway, what sort of a player leaves spell research to his DM? Was he so ignorant of the rules he couldn't put the spell together himself?

Not impossible, just reliant on player laziness or ignorance. Which apperently he had if the player was willing to let the GM write his Epic spells for him.

[King of Nowhere]

Nit pick time, oh boy! :smallsmile: cracks fingers but ends up breaking them off Well darn, that wasn't supposed to happen.

Because you said you only said Demons and Devils, Demodands, and most of all Yugoloths who are the original evils, might not be evil in your campaign settings.

I'm detecting sarcasm, but on internet I'm not sure. Plus, I'm in the middle of an attack of nit-pickity, so I have to reply.:smallsmile:
I have in my possession the 3.0 player handbook, the 3.0 master handbook, and the core 3.0 monster manual. Everything else of DnD setting I learned from videogames, or figured out reading this forum. Demodands or yugoloths, I have no idea what they are.
I admit a few other exceptions to the "freedom of choice" rule. For example, I accept formians to be all lawful neutral, because 1) they are creature of the elemental plane of law, pratically they are embodiements of lawfulness to its extremes and 2) because they have no individual minds.
But I figure out that unless a creature is born as an embodiement of a certain alignment or alignment-related concept, or is strongly bounded by supernatural means to behave in a certain way, said creature will choose freely its alignment. Cultural and genetic predispositions will play a role, but exceptions will be frequent.

[Prak]

what alignment is the wizard?

If he's evil then he just won major brownie points with the forces of evil, and when/if he eventually dies, he'll get a very cushy deal in the after life.

If he's good then he just fell so hard that his crator is deeper than Asmodeus' and the forces of evil will be tripping over themselves to get him to sell his soul, while the forces of good will be tripping over themselves to rectify the situation.

[Volkov]

I'm detecting sarcasm, but on internet I'm not sure. Plus, I'm in the middle of an attack of nit-pickity, so I have to reply.:smallsmile:
I have in my possession the 3.0 player handbook, the 3.0 master handbook, and the core 3.0 monster manual. Everything else of DnD setting I learned from videogames, or figured out reading this forum. Demodands or yugoloths, I have no idea what they are.
I admit a few other exceptions to the "freedom of choice" rule. For example, I accept formians to be all lawful neutral, because 1) they are creature of the elemental plane of law, pratically they are embodiements of lawfulness to its extremes and 2) because they have no individual minds.
But I figure out that unless a creature is born as an embodiement of a certain alignment or alignment-related concept, or is strongly bounded by supernatural means to behave in a certain way, said creature will choose freely its alignment. Cultural and genetic predispositions will play a role, but exceptions will be frequent.

Yugoloths were the first fiends, they created Demons, Devils and Demodands, they are native to Hades, although they enjoy living on Gehenna. Demodands are ugly little fatties who are the wardens of Canceri, they are the weakest of the fiendish races. Yugoloths only allow the blood war to continue because it suits them, when they want it to end they'll get asmodeus and demogorgon to sign a pact and all the lower planes will march with their infinite hordes against the upper planes destroying all the celestials in existence.

[daemonwelsh]

That actually is a situation I am in... Only, I am the player, not the DM. see, I just got this quest for an uber spell called Hadoken (my DM is not for originality) and my DM knows that I am playing as a chaotic evil character, that whenever I die, i can roll a new character, no loss in levels, nothing, and keep going... My character wants to start a war of gods, and my Hadoken spell is pretty much the best way for me to do this. One problem... I dont have it yet...

So, I guess what I am saying here is: If I get this spell, should I do what I wanted to do, and kill every god out there, thus screwing the game over, or should I play it out with my DM, even though he is even worse than my mother at DMing... and yes, she did run a couple of games...

I would let the epic Familicide spell in, but I would give it a couple of limitations, such as:
only hits 10 generations,
deals 100d12 damage to each creature in said family tree
spell resistance: yes,
Saves: Reflex.
Roll a d20, if 5 or less, then Familicide affects you instead... if it comes out as 20, regain all caster slots, but remove familicide from your spellbook, and place in the pocket of the diety of the nearest family you killed...

The diety knows how to cast this spell

When cast, alignment automatically becomes: Chaotic Evil.
Exchange all levels for the same amount of levels in ___________

Untangle the worlds threads, thus allowing the Snarl free...
(stats for snarl)

If beaten, then the characters will become gods...
If lost, then the characters start as level 1 humans with no class...
(sorry bout the pun, just had to have it:smallwink:)

[Undead Prince]

That actually is a situation I am in... Only, I am the player, not the DM. see, I just got this quest for an uber spell called Hadoken (my DM is not for originality) and my DM knows that I am playing as a chaotic evil character, that whenever I die, i can roll a new character, no loss in levels, nothing, and keep going... My character wants to start a war of gods, and my Hadoken spell is pretty much the best way for me to do this. One problem... I dont have it yet...

So, I guess what I am saying here is: If I get this spell, should I do what I wanted to do, and kill every god out there, thus screwing the game over, or should I play it out with my DM, even though he is even worse than my mother at DMing... and yes, she did run a couple of games...

I would let the epic Familicide spell in, but I would give it a couple of limitations, such as:
only hits 10 generations,
deals 100d12 damage to each creature in said family tree
spell resistance: yes,
Saves: Reflex.
Roll a d20, if 5 or less, then Familicide affects you instead... if it comes out as 20, regain all caster slots, but remove familicide from your spellbook, and place in the pocket of the diety of the nearest family you killed...

The diety knows how to cast this spell

When cast, alignment automatically becomes: Chaotic Evil.
Exchange all levels for the same amount of levels in ___________

Untangle the worlds threads, thus allowing the Snarl free...
(stats for snarl)

If beaten, then the characters will become gods...
If lost, then the characters start as level 1 humans with no class...
(sorry bout the pun, just had to have it:smallwink:)

I am really not sure if I should even get involved in this... but oh well.

Just out of curiousity.

Stats for this "Hadoken" spell.

Stats for your version of Familicide.

Stats for your character.

And, really, it's DEITY, NOT DIETY. From DEUS, not DIET.

[Michaelos]

I do DM an Epic level 3.5 Campaign, and there is a 21st level caster who could potentially do this, although it isn't his style (He prefers charming everyone.) He's Chaotic Neutral, because he started as Chaotic Good but was having slightly too much fun with the idea of controlling undead and evil spells, so him deciding to do this would be odd.

I've already established that there are a lot of Solars around, because someone has to be keeping the Atropal in check until the PC's can kill it, now that the Lich queen released it (and then used it to go Demilich). Ironically, the epic caster mentioned earlier was prophesized to kill said atropal. Since the Solars already dislike him and distrust him, if he started pulling out that ****, they'd probably hit him with a sanctify the wicked spell or 7, since he'd be as bad as the Atropal at that point, but they'd still need him.

The Epic Spells that have been used in my campaign are:

A slightly weaker version of Verdigris Tsunami (less damage) that a Leshay was using to redevelop a forest as part of an earlier plotline about Druids and Blighters. This was long before fighting a Leshay would be feasible.

Skullaport (Stylistically, Allows the Demilich to Teleport inside someone, forcing other people to kill that person to reveal the Demilich. In actuality, grants complete control over that person while the Demilich is safely adjacent on a seperate plane, allowing control, while preventing a Dispel Magic from blasting away an important Defensive buff she has, since she isn't on that plane.)

Time Control: A critically important defensive buff that automatically counters Timestops and Celerities, while causing a small amount of backlash damage to the caster of that spell. Used because a Demilich understands that she's only one Celeritied Timestop (And the epic caster has done this) combo away from being bone fragments.

So none of those are on the order of Familicide, but that's probably because even the highest level character, the Bear Barbarian is level 23, so there's still a lot of Epic to go.

[Volkov]

I'm setting up the party for their final battle against Father Ilymic, who I've buffed up severely from his humble self in the Elder Evil's book. He should be able to kill at least half the party before he bites the dust, heck i've been setting this one up for six months, building up the sign and the amount of brood spawn.

[jindra34]

I agree with those who say that it would be bad DMing to respond with a simple squish the party response to a spell like this. If I had a player perform an act on this scale I probably would start by having a group or two of followers of Tiamat hunting the party. Probably starting the inevitable conflict with the grievence. If the players did not immedietely try an remedy the situation (which would probably involve going on a very suicidal quest and or rezzing each dragon.), they would then get nice long term deific grade vengance. Like having enemies they are hunting being prepared and having the exact items needed to stop them. And bad weather, and apparently bad luck with towns. God(desse)s are powerful and don't have to squish the part to make them get the point, plus they have all eternity, which the party doesn't.

[Volkov]

The reason for father Illymic rise to awakening is because of the meteor throwing up a ton of dust into the air, as after all the wizard said "It went at 72 km/s duh" while asking him why it was so devastating. All the dust thrown up into the atmosphere blocked out enough sunlight at illymic's mountain to allow him to begin to break free. We are now at the strong sign, which combined from the dust of the asteroid, means the one hour of sunlight we get is merely as strong as a night with a crescent moon.

Illymic will be free by saturday. Then the fun begins.

[hamishspence]

I'm guessing Yugoloths as creators of the other fiendish races is 2nd ed background- there is only a passing mention in 3rd ed Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss p 107:

"Before the first mortal was born, the obyriths ruled the Abyss, and their political ambitions and plots have seldom extended beyond the plane of their origin. Certain blasphemous texts of incalculable antiquity claim that the obyriths and a proto-race of ancient Baatorians were the spawn of a greater fiendish race called the baernoloths, but this unified creation myth enjoys few proponents outside Gehenna and the Gray Waste of Hades"

(also, the lord of the ancient Baatorians, Zargon The Returner, makes an appearance in Elder Evils)

[Volkov]

I'm guessing Yugoloths as creators of the other fiendish races is 2nd ed background- there is only a passing mention in 3rd ed Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss p 107:

"Before the first mortal was born, the obyriths ruled the Abyss, and their political ambitions and plots have seldom extended beyond the plane of teir origin. Certain blasphemous texts of incalculable antiquity claim that the obyriths and a proto-race of ancient Baatorians were the spawn of a greater fiendish race called the baernoloths, but this unified creation myth enjoys few proponents outside Gehenna and the Gray Waste of Hades"

(also, the lord of the ancient Baatorians, Zargon The Returner, makes an appearance in Elder Evils)

I never could get how Zargon could kill gods with his stats. Then again he has regenerative abilities that would make the Tarrasque blush.

[hamishspence]

yes- could be that Asmodeus killing him the first time massively weakened this new incarnation of him when it returned. Or, that the gods were avatars when they came down to earth to fight him.

[Volkov]

yes- could be that Asmodeus killing him the first time massively weakened this new incarnation of him when it returned. Or, that the gods were avatars when they came down to earth to fight him.

Zargon only killed gods when he first landed on the material plane. It must be his second incarnation. I wonder what would happen if he, Tenerbrous, Pandorym, Mau Yuan, and The Snarl fought. Who truly can claim the name of the slayer of the gods?

[Undead Prince]

Repeat after me: RPG's are not a contest between the players and a GM. They're a cooperative effort to have fun with your friends.

Truer words were never spoken!


And that's just what I can think of in five minutes.

That was an excellent example of on-the-fly DMing. I'm sure your group is glad to have you at the table.


I say if it screws up any plot you may have planned, or just plain cheats, the revenge should be directly proportionate as to how much it annoyed you at the time.

And I say, down with lazy railroading DMs! If the players did something you hadn't planned for, it's your own damn fault, so instead of punishing the players for being too smart for you, rally and think up a new direction for the plot to go. Grautry already showed you how it's done.

[Volkov]

I'm a combination of rail-road and on the fly Dm. I have a sequence campaign in mind but I adjust it depending on what the PC's do.

[Godskook]

I think this is a good example of appropriate consequences for a player's actions... (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=951)

[The MunchKING]

I think this is a good example of appropriate consequences for a player's actions... (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=951)

Wrong action. They're talking about TAKING families, not MAKING them. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Sholos]

I think that any DM that feels a need to punish a player is doing it wrong.

[grautry]

Truer words were never spoken!

That was an excellent example of on-the-fly DMing. I'm sure your group is glad to have you at the table.

Thanks a lot, but I'm certainly not the one who invented the idea of cooperative fun in RPG's and I'm currently a player in my group. ;-)


And I say, down with lazy railroading DMs! If the players did something you hadn't planned for, it's your own damn fault, so instead of punishing the players for being too smart for you, rally and think up a new direction for the plot to go. Grautry already showed you how it's done.

Not to mention, that there's no need for on-the-fly DM'ing.

If the players massively surprise you, it's perfectly acceptable to ask for 10 minutes to think things through. Not only will that give you time to get some ideas, but the players will feel awesome. They will remember this forever as "the moment the DM didn't have any ideas". The only way in which this could be something undesirable to you is if you are an excessively prideful person and "can't stand to loose"(which is once again - an absurd notion, because the game is not a contest between you and the players). Worse comes to worse, you say "well I need to think things through, let's leave this hanging until the next session" and you give yourself a week to come up with ideas. The players will feel even more badass. This will be an eternal CMOA for them.

Not to mention that if you allowed Familicide, then you should have thought of what happens when they actually use it. In a standard D&D universe, you pretty much only have to prepare three options - what happens when they use it on Evil creatures, on Neutral creatures and on Good creatures.

[factotum]

Not to mention that if you allowed Familicide, then you should have thought of what happens when they actually use it. In a standard D&D universe, you pretty much only have to prepare three options - what happens when they use it on Evil creatures, on Neutral creatures and on Good creatures.

The nature of the spell is that it's entirely indiscriminate, though--even using it against a race which is Always Evil doesn't necessarily mean that all the targets actually ARE evil, and if they're using it against humans, it's pretty much a racing certainty that they'll get a pick'n'mix of alignments among the people killed. Furthermore, if you haven't planned for what sort of family the person they use it against has, you have some thinking to do to decide who exactly gets killed. (If it were me, well, I wouldn't have allowed the spell in the first place, but if I went insane and DID allow it for some reason, I'd have the wise kindly old king who sent the party on their quest in the first place turn out to be related to the person they killed...just to let them know that using something like that comes with consequences. Heck, I think a nice civil war might completely destroy the country the PCs like the hang out in... :smallwink:).

[King of Nowhere]

I give the pcs bonus xp everytime they do something clever I didn't planned for, just to reduce the risk of railroading.
The punishment is not because they did something I didn't planned, but because of the horribly evil act they enacted when supposed to run a good campaign. And I could never run an evil campaign because I couldn't bear seeing some evil pc and helping them commit more evil.
Also, for how my campaign world runs, such an action would have severe repercussions for the pcs. But in the hypotetical event that I'm running an evil campaign, I'd give the pcs the chance to get away, but I still have them fight so hard that if some of them survives to resurrect the others they will think "oh crap, let's never do this again! Back to doing random evil here and there and not piss some powerful enemy".
In a good campaign, they would be tpked, or forced to repair the damage they did (probably providing a massive load of resurrections a their expenses).

Of course, I'd never allow familicide in the first place, so all that was before is just theorical.

[Aotrs Commander]

Don't look at a major event like that as a contest between you and players, see it as one of the best story opportunities ever.

Yeah. What you said.

I am recently running for a party of level 16 who will reach Epic by the end of the campaign. Given how horrifically powerful they are now, the thought of a camapign where they had enough power to cast Familicide fills me with dread...

That said, in that sort of situation, then, fine. I don't have a problem with it. Hell, make it Genocide and have done with it. (And I AM a Lawful Evil DM.)

But then again, I always play with what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Once that spell exists - even assuming the PC created himself - people are going to find out about it. Prebenting people from doing so is a campaign all itself.

And the bad guys WILL use it right back. Not at the PCs, (probably, unless they give the bad guys a sufficently big in-character reason), but certainly on someone. The Dark Lord on one of my camapign worlds would be delighted. He'd be able, with a bit of effort snagging a few Fey, be able to start obliterating them altogether, so that next time, they won't be able to interfere. On another campaign world, the nation of Sylphs have a comparivtiely close bloodline, as they all come from a fairly small pool of ancestors. For evil deity Malakax, that'd be one more nation out of the way for his path to world conquest.

It would be, admittedly, opening the door to what would likely turn out to be a nuclear war with neutron bombs. But the PCs would be told the probable results - because their characters would be smart enough to KNOW (they'd have to be to research the spell in the first place) what would happen. Then they'd have to make the decision and live - or perhaps not - with the consequences.



Alternatively, if the PCs are so powerful that they can splutch deities or something, then what the hell. They can do what they damn-well please...

[Dixieboy]

Because I totally hate the idea that the pc can wander around and decide to zap someone basing on the color of his skin, or the pointiness of his teeth. Therefore, in my campaign world, the "always evil" tag applies only to demons and devils. The "often evil" may apply to mind flayers, if I decide to put them in my campaign. And I gave the pcs a campaign where they have to defend some peaceful tribes of good orcs from an evil elf overlord, just to make this point clear. They will mostly fight bounty hunters of pc races.
I understand I don't run a common setting, but I like it that way, and the players too. Your ruling, that's hardly fair using that against me. I can state what i think and you can just say. "OH WELL WHEN I DM..."
Your argument isn't fair.






Sorry, there are too much divination spells to avoid identification when you kill some hundreds of dragons... That allows to see back in time and focus on someone who you do not know, have never seen, and only know because he/she MIGHT have cast a spell? tell me the spell that can trace the origin of a spell and then scry on the caster :smallconfused:
Unless they are constantly staring at you, which is frankly, a ****-move by the DM

[King of Nowhere]

Your ruling, that's hardly fair using that against me. I can state what i think and you can just say. "OH WELL WHEN I DM..."
Your argument isn't fair.

The thread asked what would you do if you DMed such a situation. That strongly depends on the setting of the campaign, so my answer cannot avoid taking that into account.
I suppose you can play a setting where evil races are there just stereotipied evil who exist only to be killed, and in that case casting familicide on a black dragon would be totally ok, killing children and dragons who never did anything wrong because they're labeled "always evil". Being stereotipied evil, the other dragons wouldn't care about that, and absolutely nothing would happen to the party.
That's perfectly fine, as different people we have different tastes in entertainment.
Just let me express my disliking of that sistem.



That allows to see back in time and focus on someone who you do not know, have never seen, and only know because he/she MIGHT have cast a spell? tell me the spell that can trace the origin of a spell and then scry on the caster :smallconfused:
Unless they are constantly staring at you, which is frankly, a ****-move by the DM

You don't track back in time the caster of a spell, you just find someone who noticed it and ask him.
If I recall correctly, there was a 5th or 6th level spell called "contact planes" or something that allows you to contact another plane, including that of a major deity, to ask some questions. Don't tell me a deity wouldn't notice someone in the act of killing one quarter of all black dragons on heart?
Or, you may resurrect some witness to ask him what happened; or, in the worst case, I believe a miracle or wish will be able to do the trick. An event like familicide will be enough to justify casting such a spell to discover what happened.

[Dixieboy]

You don't track back in time the caster of a spell, you just find someone who noticed it and ask him.
If I recall correctly, there was a 5th or 6th level spell called "contact planes" or something that allows you to contact another plane, including that of a major deity, to ask some questions. Don't tell me a deity wouldn't notice someone in the act of killing one quarter of all black dragons on heart?
Or, you may resurrect some witness to ask him what happened; or, in the worst case, I believe a miracle or wish will be able to do the trick. An event like familicide will be enough to justify casting such a spell to discover what happened.

Imma ignore your first part as it conflicts with what i would rule :smallsmile:

How he could not notice? Lemme see... because it was done while no one was watching?

The rescurrection of witnesses could be done, but that would mean you would have to find out WHERE he cast the spell

[GarmStoylen]

As no-one I game with is of the ilk that would not care about consequences to their actions, I would certainly allow Familicide - with all its logical consequences. Those wouldn't include killing the PC - unless he perfectly well knew he was quarter Black Dragon, at which point, I would roll a chance die in the open.

The pc would also be thoroughly Evil, though. Genocide is never anything but in my book.

Knowing who did such a deed is as easy as getting a good enough Divination spell. If not, there would certainly be *some* god who knew - and who could likely be persuaded to part with that knowledge, somehow.

[Ozymandias9]

How he could not notice? Lemme see... because it was done while no one was watching?

I'll assume, since we're discussing what a Deity notices, that we're using Deities & Demigods. I'll also assume that we're looking at the spell in general and not specifically it being cast against a dragon or by an elf.

List of Gods for whom this would trip Portfolio Sense:
Baccob (Any spell cast, any alteration of the balance of alignments)
Erythnul (Any act of hate, envy, malice, brutality, or destruction)
Hextor (any act of cruelty or injustice)
Neruul (any death)
St. Cuthbert (any act of revenge or punishment)
Wee-Jas (any death)
Odin (Any spell cast)
Zeus (If cast under the open sky)
Apollo (Any spell cast)
Ares (Any hostile act)
Athena (Any fighting)
Hades (Any death)
Hecate (Any spell cast, only at night)
Isis (Any spell cast)
Nephthys (Any death)
Osiris (Any death)
Set (Any act of evil)
Thor (Any combat)

Most of these go some weeks into the past. Some are aware weeks before they happen. Now all that has to happen is that one of those deities has a reason to care.

Beyond that, if any one member of the family killed by the spell qualifies as as Legendary for the purposes of legend lore/vision, then it is possible (though perhaps time consuming) to gain the information through repeated divination: the spell can explicitly grant information not generally known. Scry on victim of level 11 or greater to find out who killed them, gather information on that person until you have enough to scry on them by the same method. Slow, but it should get you there.

Contact other plane, however, might not work: even if you manage to contact a greater deity, they won't always answer truthfully or at all. Even then, the answer limited:

All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.

[SowZ]

What's with these worlds where every adventurer and their mum is level 10-18 and any given church, government, assassins guild has a few dozen epic characters on hand? Or where a good chunk of the population are adventurers?


Your ruling, that's hardly fair using that against me. I can state what i think and you can just say. "OH WELL WHEN I DM..."
Your argument isn't fair.




That allows to see back in time and focus on someone who you do not know, have never seen, and only know because he/she MIGHT have cast a spell? tell me the spell that can trace the origin of a spell and then scry on the caster :smallconfused:
Unless they are constantly staring at you, which is frankly, a ****-move by the DM

I think any group above level 15 having someone scrying on them for the rest of their life is not only reasonable but probable. Not every moment of every day, of course, but keeping serious tabs on them? Yeah.

[guguma]

From what I have been reading, I see that most of the DMs here are punishing the PLAYER, rather than the CHARACTER the player is representing in the game.

If you punish the player and kill his character by an absurd force of power just because you are the DM does not make much sense to me.

If the player is a good roleplayer and the DM is a good story-teller one can resolve this matter in many interesting ways.

1. You can make the character happy, entire kingdoms may bow to his power, in time he could be the most feared man around, but one day reveal to him that one of the rare things he needed dearly (love, an artifact, etc) is destroyed because of his actions and he will try to undo the things he have done.

2. You can make the spell backfire and kill him, but due to a weird complication let him end up in the nine hells as an undead (I do not know if this be possible but really rulebooks are just guidelines) possibly a lich such that most of his abilities are stripped off from him and his phylactery is kept by an archdevil who will use him, make him suffer, make him run errands but constantly remind him that because of his stupid actions he ended up as the worthless slave he is now, of course develop the story such that he will be freed from this torment somehow (involve his party members to this)

3. If this character had a grand plan, make his actions disturb or slow down this plan to the point such that he will wish he had not done this, keep sending assassins of unknown origin, get him teleported to places beyond his will and subject him to questioning, torment, throw these in randomly during the campaign etc.

All these will accomplish 2 things:

i. the player will be happy that the story became interesting again and he needs to think, plan and act differently to reverse these events,

ii. the character will be tormented and punished.

be creative and keep the game interesting... (I am in no way stating that you guys are not creative or uninteresting or boring so please do not misunderstand this statement as flaming, just a general statement about d&d itself, I really like it when it has a good story and is interesting.)

[Shale]

The campaign proceeds as normal for 2d12 in-game days, after which all nations where the effects of the spell were felt determine its origin and declare war on the caster and his allies. In addition to whatever epic threat the campaign is about, the party now has to deal with active and continual interference from local political powers, and the complete loss of all support they previously enjoyed from those states and (barring one hell of a diplomacy check) their allies.

[Particle_Man]

A 60 hit dice balor with 40 levels in black guard is more than a match for any wizard to have ever existed, period.

Not for Binky, my 1 467 208 234 293 236 234 252 232 352 293 239th level wizard! :smallbiggrin:

Besides, why wouldn't Familicide work on a Balor?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't have a calendar on hand, but I think it's been over three years since 4/1/09. :smalltongue:

[kpenguin]

The Modguin: Thread locked.