Black Dragon's happy afterlife

[goodyarn]

I have a couple questions:

The dragon told us she had been reunited with her family in the afterlife, and to me at least it sounded like a happy experience.

So, do evil creatures go to heaven in this world?

For that matter, what happens to evil monsters and evil humans in the afterlife in D&D?

Just never thought about it before. It might be an insight into Rich's view of good and evil. Or it might be something answered in the rulebooks ages ago and I just never knew.

What say you?

[The Blackbird]

Evil creatures go to evil planes. But they can be happy there because there evil. I think thats how it works anyways.
In D&D the DM is the person who choses the sort of afterlife. In my own campaings, evil creatures only enjoy the afterlife if they were powerful and evil, granting them a evil diety's favor and such.

[Recaiden]

You go to an afterlife depending on which deity you worshiped. What happened after that has always been vague, but there are suggestions that evil afterlives are not necessarily bad places for their evil inhabitants. Presumably, the dragons go to Tiamat's domain.

[Kaytara]

You go to an afterlife depending on which deity you worshiped.

I think it's that way in Faerun, but in OotS-verse? :smallconfused: From what we've seen, what deity you follow only affects which part of the mountain you get processed in, but the Lawful Good afterlife is still free for all.

[Volkov]

I have a couple questions:

The dragon told us she had been reunited with her family in the afterlife, and to me at least it sounded like a happy experience.

So, do evil creatures go to heaven in this world?

For that matter, what happens to evil monsters and evil humans in the afterlife in D&D?

Just never thought about it before. It might be an insight into Rich's view of good and evil. Or it might be something answered in the rulebooks ages ago and I just never knew.

What say you?
Dragon worshippers of Tiamat get a very damned nice after-life, non-dragon worshippers suffer the same as athiestic lawful evil beings.

[Janmorel]

Dragon worshippers of Tiamat get a very damned nice after-life.

Or a very nice damned after-life, depending on how you look at it. :smallwink:

[derfenrirwolv]

The dragon told us she had been reunited with her family in the afterlife, and to me at least it sounded like a happy experience.

So, do evil creatures go to heaven in this world?

Apparently.

It would be horrifically cruel if chromatic dragons were born always evil (and thus could be killed on sight and had no moral rights) and THEN had to suffer for being the way they were created. You make someone evil and then punish them for it? No way




For that matter, what happens to evil monsters and evil humans in the afterlife in D&D?


Its possible its different for creatures (such as humans) who had an effective CHOICE about their alignment work under different rules.

[Volkov]

Or a very nice damned after-life, depending on how you look at it. :smallwink:

Heh...They probably get a huge as crap hoard that if brought into the material plane would cause gold's value to plummet to unprecedented lows, tons of minions to lord over, their favorite foods and environments, all the magic they could ever want, and an entire regiment of suck ups and @$$ kissers.

[delguidance]

Wasn't the fugue plain involved in the Forgotten realms somehow? Like there's a bunch of souls waiting around and the dieties come pick them up?

[Volkov]

Tiamat does not take kindly to someone taking the souls of her rightful servants to make undead with, this typically angers her and of all the gods in D&D Tiamat's vengance is the most brutal. Gruumsh will just smash you, Tiamat will END YOU! So V's death is near, plus Mess with Tiamat you Mess with Bel and the other Archdevils, mess with the Archdevils you mess with the Dark eight and so forth.

[Dagren]

Well, it kind of makes sense when you think about it. Remember the afterlife is known to exist in stick-world, and if there was punishment anything like the christian hell, would anyone be evil? Maybe Xykon, since as a lich immortality is a real possibility for him, but normal humans like Nale or Kubota? I doubt it.

[Alysar]

tons of minions to lord over, their favorite foods

Those might be one and the same. :smallbiggrin:

[Sutremaine]

Remember the afterlife is known to exist in stick-world, and if there was punishment anything like the christian hell, would anyone be evil? Maybe Xykon, since as a lich immortality is a real possibility for him, but normal humans like Nale or Kubota? I doubt it.
Not to mention the attractions available in the OotSverse LG afterlife. I could see it working a little better if the CE afterlife had the same thing, but without the mountain that allows purified souls to go onto the other other side. CE souls would either hang around there or take their chances in the standard Lower Planes.

That does still leave Good as the only choice to take if you want to move beyond the planes of the dead being as close to the Material Plane as any other. I don't think this is a problem that can the D&D universe can solve unless it either thinks its afterlives through and allows Evil to reward its followers as well as Good does, or cuts down on inter-plane contact so that D&D mortals have to make their own minds up about the relative benefits of Good and Evil, or turns Good vs. Evil into something more akin to Law vs. Chaos. (It might be Good to pre-emptively kill an Evil creature, but it's not necessarily right.)

[snafu]

It would be horrifically cruel if chromatic dragons were born always evil (and thus could be killed on sight and had no moral rights) and THEN had to suffer for being the way they were created. You make someone evil and then punish them for it? No way

Horrifically cruel? Yes. But gods are known to do that sort of thing.

I mean, half of mythology is all along that theme. Gods made men the way they are, and then punish them for it. Often very cruelly and unnecessarily. Sometimes according to impossibly high standards, sometimes according to no consistent set of rules at all but only their own whims. One common motif is of humans living together at peace in a good and happy community, and then the gods deliberately throwing a spanner in the works because they prefer to have a monopoly on happiness and achievement: remember Pandora's box? In his spite Zeus fills the world with endless curses of pain and sorrow - and then to twist the knife he adds a dash of hope, hope to be dashed, so that every new pain comes as a fresh injury, so that men never just get used to their miserable lot.

(Actually, interpretations vary on that last bit: some say hope was added as a small mercy, rather than as a way of making all the curses hurt that little bit more. Depends what you think of Zeus really.)

But the gods of men are a mixed lot. Prometheus brought men fire, the secret of which led them to be more than ignorant animals, gave us the light of knowledge, led us to civilisation. This we might call good. For doing this, Zeus consigned him to an eternal punishment. This we might call evil. Sometimes gods do good, sometimes they do evil. Men fill the world with a mixture of gods and monsters, some of whom are to be loved, others to be bribed, others to be placated, and others to be dreaded and not spoken of.

Now in a world with many sentient species each with their own private gods, should not an evil god create an evil species - and then treat it in an evil manner? Yes, it's cruel. Horrifically cruel. What do you expect from a god of evil - hugs and puppies?

I gather from the D&D background that Tiamat actually treats her draconic children well, but that's not something we should necessarily expect. It seems unjust and monstrous to us that a god should meet her faithful followers in the afterlife and repay their lifelong trust and service with punishment... but isn't 'unjust and monstrous' precisely what we mean by evil? Would it be a hideous nightmare to live under the rule of such gods? Absolutely. If you knew such beings ruled your eternal fate, and that there was indeed no justice for you in the cosmos... well, then you might well become entirely sociopathic, burn down a few towns because you can, plunder all you will. I mean, you're damned anyway, why not earn it? Evil gods create their people, and the knowledge that they are doomed to an ultimately evil fate leads the creations to be evil themselves.

(Incidentally, I went with the Prometheus and Pandora myths because they're probably better known... but I always kind of admired Arachne, almost as much as Prometheus. Her weaving was better than Minerva's, and it didn't cover up the truth about how the gods behaved themselves. An early champion of human excellence and of free speech, and she got turned into a spider for it.)

[R. Malcovitch]

Evil characters aren't punished, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Angels reward good petitioners for being like them (good), so for demons/devils to punish evil petitioners would mean that they thought their way was bad. No sense. Now if a given petitioner isn't very strong then he's an expendable slave if he's lucky, but if he (or she rather) is an ancient black dragon then she's going to be very popular indeed.

Hell isn't punishment, it's paradise for the wicked.

[Serebii]

Ya know, it took Roy what, 2 weeks to get up the mountain?
The dragon, on the other hand, heads up in about 2 seconds. Lawful-Good main character that we all wish would come back v. dragon that just showed up.
Hmmm....:smalleek:

[TSED]

Hell isn't punishment, it's paradise for the wicked.



THIS.


They finally get a society that rewards their moral outlook. It's like heaven for them, assuming they can actually look out for themselves.

[R. Malcovitch]

They finally get a society that rewards their moral outlook. It's like heaven for them, assuming they can actually look out for themselves.And thaaaat's why yes, hell is putative for the average Snidely Whiplash. It's like prison, if you can hold your own you're a living (or afterliving) god but if not better become someone's bitch. Only unlike prison there's no guards to break things up if they get too bad. And in a world populated by Balors and Xykons, there's a lot of room at the bottom.

[lexcorp026]

The way I have approached it as a DM within my campaign was that every God has claim to the souls of their own worshippers. They then reward or punish their worshippers based upon faithfulness, service, or random whims.

I had always been under the impression that the extraplanar creatures were the souls of those who had passed. An incredibly evil, powerful, successful and faithful worshipper of an evil God may become a Pit Fiend or whatnot, while the snivelling nobodies who never really had their heart in it would become merely a Dretch or Lemure. "Punishment" essentially meant eternity of servitude and abuse from the higher ups.

[Axl_Rose]

It would be horrifically cruel if chromatic dragons were born always evil (and thus could be killed on sight and had no moral rights) and THEN had to suffer for being the way they were created. You make someone evil and then punish them for it? No way

Well said!

Think about the baby black dragons in eggs that were killed before they were even HATCHED.

Edit:

Horrifically cruel? Yes. But gods are known to do that sort of thing...

[Some good points]


But that was also well said.

In which case, I hope a pervading theme in Oots will be the falliability of the Gods; indeed this has occurred literally with the Snarl as a manifestation of their flaws but the concept of Flawed Gods was also the cause for the murderous crusades of the Sapphire Guard (I think Rich actually mentioned that himself somewhere, something about how the destruction of Azure City was karmic retribution for how the 12 gods sanctioned the genocide of the goblins). And again, it is the concept that the gods are flawed that incites Redcloak's desire to seize the gates; to right the wrongs of the Gods.

Thus, while I know the Snarl won't ever actually escape to lay waste to the Gods (If Rich wasn't willing to let V's children die, then I'm sure he's not willing to let the entire multiverse crumble) I do hope that at the end of the story, there *are* changes to the way things work; ie the move towards a more "just" system, if you could call it that.

[Korwin]

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453

To quote from:
http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf

There is no Salvation or Redemption in D&D

All of the major religions of our world that utilize the concepts of Ultimate Good and Ultimate Evil use the concept of Redemption (that people have a state of innocence that they can lose and perhaps regain through atonement) or Salvation (that people have a state of inherent unworthiness that they can overcome). D&D, despite having a spell called atonement actually has neither of those concepts. The atonement spell actually dedicates (or rededicates) a character to any alignment, Good or Evil, Law or Chaos. Baby kobolds are not born into original sin and baby elves are not born in a state of grace, D&D doesn’t even have those concepts. Creatures with an alignment subtype (most Fiends, for example) are born into that alignment and are only going to stray from it if subjected to powerful magic or arguments. Everyone else is born neutral. In D&D, creatures do not “fall” into Evil. Being Evil is a valid choice that is fully supported by half the gods just as Good is. Those who follow the tenets of Evil throughout their lives are judged by Evil Gods when they 23 die, and can gain rewards at least as enticing as those offered to those who follow the path of Good (who, after all, are judged by Good Gods after they die). So when sahuagin run around on land snatching children to use as slaves or sacrifices to Baatorians, they aren’t putting their soul in danger. They are actually keeping their soul safe. Once you step down the path of villainy, you get a better deal in the afterlife by being more evil.

The only people who get screwed in the D&D afterlife are traitors and failures. A traitor gets a bad deal in the afterlife because whichever side of the fence they ended up on is going to remember their deeds on the other side of the fence. A failure gets a bad deal because they end up judged by gods who wanted them to succeed. As such, it is really hard to get people to change alignment in D&D. Unless you can otherwise assure that someone will die as a failure to their alignment, there’s absolutely no incentive you could possibly give them that would entice them to betray it.

[V'icternus]

Well, that's gotta be the best post so far on this thread, in my opinion.

[cocked_brow]

I've not played a huge amount of D&D in the last 15 years, but I've played the Baldurs Gate trilogy end to end several times. So here are some suppositions based on that.

Reilev, in Irenicus dungeon. Marooned for eternity in a bottle, forgotten by his master, begs for release by death. IIRC, he is evil (I had too many detect evil spells on my paladin, even then, OK!), yet to him, death and the afterlife were preferable to existing forgotten in a bottle.

Yoshimo - Neutral. Geased, so with only limited control, but is a damned soul when he dies. He can be absolved of his sins by having his heart taken to a temple of Ilmater. What is the afterlife for a damned soul? Presumably as a plaything in one of the evil afterlives. He is redeemed, and cannot be ressurected by even the power of the Solar in the demiplane. So either redeemed is wiped out completely, or released back to his preferred afterlife, which presumably he will refuse to leave again:)

Bhodi - Evil. Fears death (and presumably the afterife) so greatly that she becomes a vampire to escape it.

Irenicus - irredeemably evil, seeking godhood to avoid death. Burning for all eternity in the fiery pits as the plaything of demons.

Using these as examples, it would seem that being evil doesn't pay... Although I have no idea how close the BG theology is to that actually espressed by 'classic' D&D.

[Zevox]

Although I have no idea how close the BG theology is to that actually espressed by 'classic' D&D.
Baldur's Gate is set in the Forgotten Realms, and the Forgotten Realms cosmology does not punish the evil in their afterlives. In that setting, the dead go the divine realm of whatever God they worshiped in life. Unless their God happens to be unusually cruel to his followers - and I think the only one that may qualify is Cyric, the insane God of Strife (and Loviatar, Goddess of Pain, but most of her followers are sadists and masochists anyway) - that's not a punishment, its a reward. On the other hand, the setting's cosmology does punish the Faithless (those who worshiped no God) and the False (those who betray their God and do not become faithful worshipers of another).

As an interesting note, one novel set in the setting actually explores how having an afterlife that rewards the good and punishes the evil could be a bad thing. When the new God of the Dead starts doing that at one point and mortals find out about it, good people no longer care about dying, and so willingly throw away their lives too easily, which, if it had kept up, would have left the evil, who had every reason to cling to their lives as long as possible, in control of the world.

That is not how basic D&D cosmology operates, though. In basic D&D cosmology, the dead go to whatever plane of existance shares their alignment. Lawful Good to celestia, lawful evil to hell, chaotic evil to the abyss, etc. I don't believe, by default, that the evil are punished in their afterlives. Rather I'm pretty sure that the fiends of the evil planes use them to create more devils/demons/etc (by transforming them into devils/demons/etc themselves). At least, I'm quite sure that the devils of the hells do this with at least some mortal souls.

Zevox

[derfenrirwolv]

The dragon, on the other hand, heads up in about 2 seconds.

Or down. We don't know about the geography of the evil afterlife. I'm going to go out on a limb and presume they don't place the same value on hard work and overcoming obstacles to meet a goal that the LG afterlife does. For all we know, there's a slide.

Or, its possible the family was watching the battle and came "down" to greet her

[Tempest Fennac]

While most evil people have to work their way up from starting as Lemures or Dretch, I remember someone saying that people who worshiped evil dieties typically got better afterlives (I don't know what their source was, though).

[V'icternus]

For all we know, there's a slide.

That's gotta be one of the weirdest and funniest views of hell I've ever imagined.

"So, I have arrived in hell to face my afterlife...

Weeeeee!!"

[The Minx]

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453

To quote from:
http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf

There is no Salvation or Redemption in D&D

All of the major religions of our world that utilize the concepts of Ultimate Good and Ultimate Evil use the concept of Redemption (that people have a state of innocence that they can lose and perhaps regain through atonement) or Salvation (that people have a state of inherent unworthiness that they can overcome). D&D, despite having a spell called atonement actually has neither of those concepts. The atonement spell actually dedicates (or rededicates) a character to any alignment, Good or Evil, Law or Chaos. Baby kobolds are not born into original sin and baby elves are not born in a state of grace, D&D doesn’t even have those concepts. Creatures with an alignment subtype (most Fiends, for example) are born into that alignment and are only going to stray from it if subjected to powerful magic or arguments. Everyone else is born neutral. In D&D, creatures do not “fall” into Evil. Being Evil is a valid choice that is fully supported by half the gods just as Good is. Those who follow the tenets of Evil throughout their lives are judged by Evil Gods when they 23 die, and can gain rewards at least as enticing as those offered to those who follow the path of Good (who, after all, are judged by Good Gods after they die). So when sahuagin run around on land snatching children to use as slaves or sacrifices to Baatorians, they aren’t putting their soul in danger. They are actually keeping their soul safe. Once you step down the path of villainy, you get a better deal in the afterlife by being more evil.

The only people who get screwed in the D&D afterlife are traitors and failures. A traitor gets a bad deal in the afterlife because whichever side of the fence they ended up on is going to remember their deeds on the other side of the fence. A failure gets a bad deal because they end up judged by gods who wanted them to succeed. As such, it is really hard to get people to change alignment in D&D. Unless you can otherwise assure that someone will die as a failure to their alignment, there’s absolutely no incentive you could possibly give them that would entice them to betray it.

If this is true, and evil is just as valid a choice as good, then the terms "Good" and "Evil" as used in D&D are little more than ethnic hats; and to claim that they are actual representations of moral behavior is at best questionable. :smallconfused:

Then one can say that it is "alignment-definition-good" to kill baby monsters, but not "actually-morally-good". The use of the same term for these things and the rejection of the latter statement by appealing to alignment definitions serves as little more than propaganda.

[Korwin]

Well, that's gotta be the best post so far on this thread, in my opinion.

The rest of the Tome is good too. (page 18-28 is about Alignments in D&D)

@The Minx

...actual representations of moral behavior is at best questionable...
You got it!
Just scratch Alignments for your game, no more ridiculus arguments.
Just play an Character, not an Alignment. (And it gets even more ridiculus with the Law/Chaos Axis...)

[Snake-Aes]

There's some confusion going on there.
Yes, people are more likely to end in realms close to his own ailgnment. That means that if an evil person ends up in baator, he's on his own in a realm composed of devils. If he doesn't earn his living there by besting every single person that wants to gain an advantage against/using him, that person is screwed. And the people who want to gain an advantage against/using him are roughly everyone.
It's more appropriate to consider the afterlife realms as just that, other realms. It's not more different than moving to another city, except the part where you died.

[saevitia]

This thread is very different than the ones I was reading about Vaarsuvius, which all seemed to say that if V did evil by casting that spell and aligignment changed to evil V was absolutely going to go to an evil afterlife where V would be horribly punished and lose Vself in horrible awfullness forever.

So now I am confused.

[Tempest Fennac]

If Tiamat got hold of V, that would almost certainly be the case. If not, V would get the same as everyone else.

[V'icternus]

I bet if Tiamat knew about the rift above Azure city, she'd through V into it, just because death and eternal torture isn't nearly enough for dragon-slaughter.

[Snake-Aes]

I bet if Tiamat knew about the rift above Azure city, she'd through V into it, just because death and eternal torture isn't nearly enough for dragon-slaughter.

Tiamat *knows* about the rift. It's quite god-only business.

[The_Void]

Tiamat does not take kindly to someone taking the souls of her rightful servants to make undead with, this typically angers her and of all the gods in D&D Tiamat's vengance is the most brutal. Gruumsh will just smash you, Tiamat will END YOU! So V's death is near, plus Mess with Tiamat you Mess with Bel and the other Archdevils, mess with the Archdevils you mess with the Dark eight and so forth.

Oooh! What if Tiamat comes after V, and V uses hir power to open the gates and control the Snarl so ze can defeat him?

[Yellow]

This thread is very different than the ones I was reading about Vaarsuvius, which all seemed to say that if V did evil by casting that spell and aligignment changed to evil V was absolutely going to go to an evil afterlife where V would be horribly punished and lose Vself in horrible awfullness forever.

So now I am confused.

The dragon was whimpering and spinning a sob story about how she left her child unattended and SURPRISE SURPRISE, adventurers killed it. She was only going to enslave the souls of two unimportant little elf kids anyway. And if she wants to give a smug little speech about it beforehand? She's just expressing her grief!

V, however, is being a big fat meany head.

[Recaiden]

Sorry, I get used to forgotten realms. Which is all of my experience with afterlives in DnD except a few vague hints that most Eberron afterlives are bad places.

However, there is a sense that those who have lived dedicated to evil would be rewarded. Dragons, usually, would be rewarded by Tiamat in the afterlife, although it probably is not quite as nice as Bahamut's realm would be for good dragons, (although I don't think there is a Bahamut here), since she is, you know, evil.

[Silverraptor]

Apparently.

It would be horrifically cruel if chromatic dragons were born always evil (and thus could be killed on sight and had no moral rights) and THEN had to suffer for being the way they were created. You make someone evil and then punish them for it? No way.


Well let me direct you attention to this SoD Spoiler.
Remember the Crayons of Time in the book. The gods created the goblins then pretty much damned them economically. When the Dark One found out, needless to say he was pissed.

So how about that?:smalltongue:

[Volkov]

At first if you didn't worship a god and you go to the lower planes, you get the standardized treatment which means you get horrific punishment of such agony that it's best to not describe it. Then you wander around as a pretty much brain-dead sorry sack of flesh at the wrong-end of everything, but if you survive you slowly climb up and your life gets slowly better. However others will try to stop you for fear of you replacing them.

But if your like Bel or Orcus who struggled from Lemure/Mane all the Way to Archdevil/Demon Prince you my friend have reached paradise, and you can play Howard Shore's In dreams & May it be till the end of time to celebrate. You just better hope another fiend doesn't see you as a threat, or worse yet, get press ganged into the blood war. If your in the blood war, if your a Demon you have a %99.999999 of getting killed on your first engagement, Yugoloths have a %75 survival rate, Devils take the cake at %99 survival rate for anyone but lemures.

Even a Balor tends to fall pretty quickly on the fiendish battle fields, because that Hell-fire engine will make mince meat out of you, guaranteed or your money back.

[ColinOfBrechtur]

If this is true, and evil is just as valid a choice as good, then the terms "Good" and "Evil" as used in D&D are little more than ethnic hats; and to claim that they are actual representations of moral behavior is at best questionable. :smallconfused:

Then one can say that it is "alignment-definition-good" to kill baby monsters, but not "actually-morally-good". The use of the same term for these things and the rejection of the latter statement by appealing to alignment definitions serves as little more than propaganda.

"Ethnic hats" doesn't follow at all. Go back to the post you quoted -- everyone is born neutral, and the moral choices they make determine the eternal disposition of their soul. In the afterlife, you go to the place populated by people who made the same kind of moral choices that you did. Sure sounds like good and evil represent moral behavior to me.

As for the Lower Planes being just as nice as the Upper Planes -- I don't think that holds up, even if a supervillain's soul might get a cushy ride. There are several things to remember.
1. Yes, the dead supervillain may be rewarded by his evil gods. But he also might have made enemies on the other side, even within his alignment. They'll be waiting for him, and ready to exact vengeance.
2. The vast majority of evil souls are not supervillains, and will not warrant cushy treatment by the evil gods. That baker who consistently swindles poor old ladies for a few more copper pieces? I don't think Asmodeus is going to prepare a penthouse for him. More to the point, no one on the other side is going to care about him AT ALL. Which means he's alone and defenseless in a nightmarish realm populated with incredibly powerful evil monsters. Forever. Good luck with that.
That's as opposed to a person who was good but not supergood. Sure, they're not going to enjoy the seat of honor at the right hand of Bahamut, but the superpowerful entities running the show here are defined by concern for the powerless.

Not to mention that the scenery is much nicer in the Upper Planes. :)

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I'd think the afterlife for any evil (or good) being would depend on a lot of things, as well as what setting it was in.

For a black dragon at least its after life wouldn't be bad or at least it wouldn't seem terrible to them. If it ends up in a place ruled by Tiamet why would it? I'm sure she isn't interested in making the (after) lives of her "children" terrible (unless they earnt her wrath somehow).

But then again, maybe the dragon is in some terrible place, but her family is there as well, so she doesn't mind as much.


As for the Lower Planes being just as nice as the Upper Planes -- I don't think that holds up, even if a supervillain's soul might get a cushy ride.


That's true. And for some reason I don't think many bad guys in DnD settings think much about the afterlife. Plenty are motivated by the usual petty things - fear, greed, lust for power etc that yeild rewards (to them) that wouldn't be so forthcoming when dead. And the way they live their lives on a mortal plane (the lavish comfort of a cruel, evil King while his people starve for example) would be nothing like what would greet them in an "evil afterlife".

A few might have the strength to forge themselves a spot at the top of the foodchain, or might have done enough to earn some favour/protection from the fat cats so their afterlife might not quite as bad (or like dragons may have their own special place set up by a rewarding god), but most would end up the playthings (or worse) of the legions of evil beings that populate those places.

I'd guess for them unpleasantness of the afterlife might seem like a fair price when considering the benifits that come from living a less then good life on the mortal plane (while they are alive at least). That, or they just don't think about it.

[ColinOfBrechtur]

It does seem like the nature of the afterlife would make the job of a good priest a lot easier.

Priest: "Hey, Mr Baker. You really shouldn't cheat Old Lady Semple out of those coppers, or you might go to hell when you die."
Baker: "Pfft. I don't believe in hell."
Priest: "Oh yeah? Well, let's just cast Scrying and see what happened to the last penny-ante swindler when he died."
*visions of soul being tormented*

I guess there are illusions and so forth, so there's room to believe you're being misled. But the sheer weight of the evidence would be pretty hard to ignore.

On the other hand, D&D theology suffers from a serious "too late to change" problem. If your afterlife is determined by an objective judgment of the good and evil that you've done, then once you've reached a certain threshold of evil, you're stuck. No amount of good deeds will be able to make up for the bad stuff you've already done. No death bed conversions -- what's the point?

I guess the reverse would be true, also. Once someone does sufficient good to merit the Upper Planes, then they've basically got carte blanche to do whatever the heck they want. I mean, after you've saved the universe from the Snarl, it'd be awfully hard to overcompensate for that and wind up in hell. :)

[Particle_Man]

We know that pedophiles (or some of them) get castrated to sing in a choir. I assume that a pedophile would not want this. Thus I assume that the lower planes are not a nice place to be.

On the other hand, even a knowledge(planar)able pedophile might be unable to overcome their evil urges while alive, despite knowing what would happen to them after death.

[Rotipher]

On the other hand, D&D theology suffers from a serious "too late to change" problem. If your afterlife is determined by an objective judgment of the good and evil that you've done, then once you've reached a certain threshold of evil, you're stuck. No amount of good deeds will be able to make up for the bad stuff you've already done. No death bed conversions -- what's the point?

It depends. Do you get branded a particular alignment because of the actual things you've done, good or bad? Or is it because you are the kind of person you are, which made you judge those actions to be appropriate? If it's the former, then you're right that there'd be a cut-off point where the burden of sin becomes too heavy to unload. If it's exclusively the latter, there doesn't actually need to be a concept of "sin" per se: it's your mindset that would count for or against you, not behavior.

If a person seriously wants to do good, but circumstances beyond her control render all her helpful efforts futile, does making the honest attempt count toward her alignment being Good? Would a wannabee villain who aspires to commit horrible crimes, yet never quite works up the nerve, get a free pass because he never actually carried through on his intentions? If their way of thinking is what determines alignment, the former would be Good; if it's action, the latter need not be Evil.

Given that Roy's interview addressed both his actual behavior and the fact he was trying, I'd say it's a combination of action and intention that counts in the Stickverse afterlife.

[hamishspence]

Not sure about the other alignments, but for LE, its never too late to change. What you get of of changing, however, depends on what you've done to fix the evil you did in life, going by Fiendish Codex 2.

If you fixed the evil deeds you did, apologized to the victims, did good deeds, (and, if it was a lot of evil, had atonement cast on you in addition) you are fine. Non-evil alignment plus successful repentance & restitution? Non-LE afterlife.

If you haven't fixed anything- but yopu really are genuinely repentant (and, ideally, were trying to fix the damage) you get reincarnated as a hellbred. However, you still have to do acts of great and heroic good to ransom back your soul.

If you repent at moment of death, you become a spectre haunting Dis, second layer of Baator.

Special note, if you're Lawful, Evil type personality, but have never committed any evil acts, Hell won't let you in- they're Eviler Than Thou. :smallamused:

BoED also stresses that those who are evil, can still be redeemed, change, go to a non-evil afterlife.

[The Minx]

"Ethnic hats" doesn't follow at all. Go back to the post you quoted -- everyone is born neutral, and the moral choices they make determine the eternal disposition of their soul. In the afterlife, you go to the place populated by people who made the same kind of moral choices that you did. Sure sounds like good and evil represent moral behavior to me.

Funnily enough, the person whose post I quoted has actually responded to my post and agreed with my conclusion. :smallsmile: The post does not say that everyone is born neutral: there are creatures born evil. They receive a reward in their afterlife just as the "good" receive a reward in theirs. In that sense, they are wearing ethnic hats. Moreover, those who are born neutral do not risk their soul be becoming evil, since they are rewarded by the evil gods.



As for the Lower Planes being just as nice as the Upper Planes -- I don't think that holds up, even if a supervillain's soul might get a cushy ride. There are several things to remember.
1. Yes, the dead supervillain may be rewarded by his evil gods. But he also might have made enemies on the other side, even within his alignment. They'll be waiting for him, and ready to exact vengeance.
2. The vast majority of evil souls are not supervillains, and will not warrant cushy treatment by the evil gods. That baker who consistently swindles poor old ladies for a few more copper pieces? I don't think Asmodeus is going to prepare a penthouse for him. More to the point, no one on the other side is going to care about him AT ALL. Which means he's alone and defenseless in a nightmarish realm populated with incredibly powerful evil monsters. Forever. Good luck with that.

Well, that sounds nice and would be all well and good, but that's not what the article says. :/



That's as opposed to a person who was good but not supergood. Sure, they're not going to enjoy the seat of honor at the right hand of Bahamut, but the superpowerful entities running the show here are defined by concern for the powerless.

Not to mention that the scenery is much nicer in the Upper Planes. :)

The scenery is a matter of taste I suppose, though I probably would prefer the upper planes myself. :)

[Dixieboy]

I think it's that way in Faerun, but in OotS-verse? :smallconfused: From what we've seen, what deity you follow only affects which part of the mountain you get processed in, but the Lawful Good afterlife is still free for all.

In faerun it is decided almost solely by your alignment

LE, you go to hell, CE you go to the Abyss.

Have fun :smallbiggrin:

Offcourse SOME gods have some influence on where you go, followers of tempus go to warriors rest. (Think Einherjar except without vikings, thus fail)

But else it's Allignment based, Tiamat has not been described as granting her children a special respite though :smallconfused:

But this is oOtS as you said.

[hamishspence]

Actually, its the other way round. In Greyhawk, its alignment-centric, but in Faerun its deity-centric.

N worshippers of NG deities for example, will be picked up from the Fugue Plane where all souls go after death, by a servant of that deity, and taken to NG realm- if they haven't done anything deity badly disapproves of.

If they have, they are deemed "The False" for betraying the precepts of their deity, they aren't picked up, but sent to The City of Judgement, where Kelemvor decides what fate they will suffer for all eternity.

Typically, punishment will be carried out by devils- Kelemvor has a contract with them allowing them to punish The False.

[ColinOfBrechtur]

Funnily enough, the person whose post I quoted has actually responded to my post and agreed with my conclusion. :smallsmile:

I know. He's wrong too. ;)


The post does not say that everyone is born neutral: there are creatures born evil.

You've got a point. There are creatures born evil -- creatures with an alignment type. Fiends and their equivalents. Everyone else is born neutral. I guess we're both over-generalizing. You're taking alignment types to be normative, I'm taking them to be the exception. I think the numbers will bear me out. Even if not, I'll happily concede that my argument only applies to those creatures that are not alignment types. Like humans, elves, kobolds, orcs, dwarves, gnomes, halflings... :)


Well, that sounds nice and would be all well and good, but that's not what the article says. :/


It is, actually. My point can be rephrased in the article's terminology like this: The vast majority of people will be considered "failures" by the standards of absolute goodness or absolute evil. Therefore, as the article says, they get a bad deal in the afterlife.
The article doesn't point out that good failures will have an easier time than evil failures, but I think that just stands to reason. Good gods are by definition more forgiving than evil gods.

[Dixieboy]

Actually, its the other way round. In Greyhawk, its alignment-centric, but in Faerun its deity-centric.

N worshippers of NG deities for example, will be picked up from the Fugue Plane where all souls go after death, by a servant of that deity, and taken to NG realm- if they haven't done anything deity badly disapproves of.

If they have, they are deemed "The False" for betraying the precepts of their deity, they aren't picked up, but sent to The City of Judgement, where Kelemvor decides what fate they will suffer for all eternity.

Typically, punishment will be carried out by devils- Kelemvor has a contract with them allowing them to punish The False.
Huh, i thought the punishment was carried out by Kelemvor himself in the shape of the wall of the faithless :smallconfused:

And there is no NG realm, there is celestia... which is LG, neither is there a NE or a LN plane.

All good guys pretty much seems to go to the same afterlife, celestia,

My reason for believing so is that far too many deities do not have a plane to call their own, even some greater deities, and some would not make sense.

Followers of mystra goes... where?

Dragons of Tiamat MIGHT go to Banehold, but I R not sure

[The Minx]

I know. He's wrong too. ;)

Heh. :)

Funnily enough, I went and clicked on the link, and I think the term "ethnic hats" does actually appear in the article, though they were listing a number of different potential interpretations.



You've got a point. There are creatures born evil -- creatures with an alignment type. Fiends and their equivalents. Everyone else is born neutral. I guess we're both over-generalizing. You're taking alignment types to be normative, I'm taking them to be the exception. I think the numbers will bear me out. Even if not, I'll happily concede that my argument only applies to those creatures that are not alignment types. Like humans, elves, kobolds, orcs, dwarves, gnomes, halflings... :)

I think you mean "normal", but yes. As for the neutrals, the article does state that their gig is that they can choose evil or good at an early stage of their careers, and will be hard to move from that alignment once it is chosen. So would they not be rewarded/punished based on that initial choice? "Once you step down the path of villainy, you get a better deal in the afterlife by being more evil.", meaning it includes neutrals who choose to be evil.



It is, actually. My point can be rephrased in the article's terminology like this: The vast majority of people will be considered "failures" by the standards of absolute goodness or absolute evil. Therefore, as the article says, they get a bad deal in the afterlife.
The article doesn't point out that good failures will have an easier time than evil failures, but I think that just stands to reason. Good gods are by definition more forgiving than evil gods.

Well, I suppose, but there's the matter of the afterlife being objectively known by the inhabitants of the material planes. And if evil gods were less inclined to reward people than the good ones, would they remain competitive? :/

Of course, if the afterlife remains hidden, that's a moot point.

[hamishspence]

FRCS and Player's Guide to Faerun- LOTS of "Good planes" some Lawful, some Neutral, some Chaotic.

Tiamat: in Greyhawk, Baator, in Faerun, Dragon Eyrie. Mystra: "Dweomerheart"

OOTS: We've seen Celestia, but Elan suggests there is a "CG afterlife" he has to go to- he will never meet Roy. Roy's Archon says "No-one would blink if I sent you to the NG afterlife." Celestia is not the only one.

Info on Wall of the Faithless is slightly contradictory: In FRCS it implies anyone "without a patron deity" goes there. In the later Deities and Demigods, it says that "those who actively oppose the worship of the gods" go there, and those without a patron deity simply continue to wander the Fugue plane until snatched by devils or demons.

The False are those who have angered their patron deity enough that it rejects them.

[Selene]

We don't know about the geography of the evil afterlife. I'm going to go out on a limb and presume they don't place the same value on hard work and overcoming obstacles to meet a goal that the LG afterlife does. For all we know, there's a slide.

ROFL! Shouldn't it be a slippery slope?

[snafu]

Info on Wall of the Faithless is slightly contradictory: In FRCS it implies anyone "without a patron deity" goes there. In the later Deities and Demigods, it says that "those who actively oppose the worship of the gods" go there, and those without a patron deity simply continue to wander the Fugue plane until snatched by devils or demons.

Actively opposing the worship of the gods, in a world where the gods very obviously and demonstrably do exist? Does that happen often enough that they have a policy for what to do with such people?

In fact come to think of it, a cleric doesn't strictly have to worship a god - he can be a follower of a particular cause instead, right?

So, character concept: a cleric who does in fact oppose all forms of worship. He is a hardline humanist (elfinist, dwarfist, whatever) who considers all this business of paying homage to super-powerful outsiders to be a nonsense and an insult to human dignity. He knows full well that no god grants him his cleric spells, he knows that they are powered instead by his own strength in conviction. He believes that the same is true of all other clerics, who are deceived into believing that their powers depend upon the favour of gods.

In fact - so he will tell you - all cleric spells are powered by mortal will and mortal conviction and righteousness, and the gods are shamelessly taking the credit for this and tricking the world into an appalling servile submission to their whims. Every other priest is fooled by their gods; they do not realise that they are doing it all for themselves, and in truth have no need of the deities' favour. This is the message he preaches to anyone who cares to listen.

He's probably chaotic neutral, and ultimately hopes to form a large enough following that he might forge a Fortress of Liberty out of the formless stuff of Limbo, as the githzerai do with their cities: this will be a refuge for all those who reject the idea of paying homage to some great power in exchange for their protection from the devils, as some intimidated shopkeeper might pay off a gangster for protection from other gangs.

And of course he really, really upsets pretty much every other cleric going...

[Zevox]

Actively opposing the worship of the gods, in a world where the gods very obviously and demonstrably do exist? Does that happen often enough that they have a policy for what to do with such people?
It shouldn't - certainly not in a world where the gods are as active as they are in the Forgotten Realms. Unfortunately, the developers have pretty badly botched the whole concept of the Wall of the Faithless right from the start.


In fact come to think of it, a cleric doesn't strictly have to worship a god - he can be a follower of a particular cause instead, right?
In normal D&D, yes. But not in the Forgotten Realms (the only setting where the Wall of the Faithless exists). In the Realms, you can only get divine magic from the gods. Not from a cause, nature, etc. If you don't worship a god (or multiple gods, or a pantheon of gods, etc), you can't become a cleric. Or druid, or paladin. Theoretically you could become a ranger, but you wouldn't be able to cast spells. And most people in the setting worship several gods on a regular basis anyway, so the Faithless are very rare anyway (which of course is one reason why the Wall makes no sense, since there really shouldn't be enough of them to keep a decent-sized wall up, much less one that's actually a strong defense for the City of the Dead...).

That's actually an aspect of the Realms I personally like. It makes no sense at all for someone to be able to pull divine magic out of thin air simply because they believe in a cause or are a tree-hugger, in my opinion.

Zevox

[Mr. Pin]

What sucks is that when they beast Xykon, He's gonna end up in the abyss, fry a Balor, and gather to him a bunch of redcloakesque bitches, and be just happy as a clam for eternity, even though he cheated death, almost ended the world, and did a lot more badness than the other poor bastards that are actually getting punished (i.e. the hobgoblins).

UNLESS the evil deities get pissy over the whole snarl thing...

[Selene]

I like, the CN guy, snafu. I'd hang with him. Anybody who has the strength of conviction to power his own spells is pretty damned mighty, IMO. :smallcool:

[Volkov]

You only really get punished if your alignment sends you to canceri, or worse yet the gods believe you to be far too dangerous and toss your soul into the far realm.

[The Pilgrim]

About the debate over if the Evil afterlife has got to be worse than the Good afterlife, or not...

Let me ask a simple question: The Lawful afterlife must be better than the Chaos afterlife? Of course, for a Lawful being, who values stability, it is. For a Chaotic being, on the other hand, who values unpredictability, a Lawful aterlife is a hellish nightmare.

Same applies to Good/Evil afterlife. For an Evil being, the Good afterlife would be unbearable. No chance to do Evil for all eternity? No way! Evil afterlife would be preferred because althrough one's gonna get abused, you will always have the chance to abuse someone lower in the food chain (or outside of it). And even if you start as the butt monkey, you will always have the expectative to rise in the ranks.

In the material world, evil overlords always have an army of thugs and goons who accept to take a lot of abuse and do their master's willing. Why someone in the material worlds agrees to be the lowest in the rank of Evil minions, instead of serving the Good powers who would treat them much better? Because, despite the abuse they have to bear, they need to do some evil, and serving Evil they have the chance to do so. And they have the expectative to rise in the ranks and be less time in the bottom. Same applies to the Evil afterlife.

For a Good being, who gets no pleasure in abusing others, the Evil afterlife makes no sense. But for an Evil being, who needs to abuse others more or less often, the Evil afterlife makes all the sick and wicked sense. His punishment is just all the pain they suffer in order to have the chance to inflict pain in others.

[Dixieboy]

Tiamat: in Greyhawk, Baator, in Faerun, Dragon Eyrie. Mystra: "Dweomerheart"


Dragon Eyrie then, i was unsure, my knowledge of Tiamat is insufficient.

Also huge problem, Dragon Eyrie and Dweomerheart no longer exists in Faerun, stupid 4e :smallmad:

When is followers of mystra described as going to Dwomerheart anyway? :smallconfused:

Arvandor is the only CG aligned plane i can think off, but since it has petitioners i would be wrong about celestia being the only place good people go.

[Volkov]

About the debate over if the Evil afterlife has got to be worse than the Good afterlife, or not...

Let me ask a simple question: The Lawful afterlife must be better than the Chaos afterlife? Of course, for a Lawful being, who values stability, it is. For a Chaotic being, on the other hand, who values unpredictability, a Lawful aterlife is a hellish nightmare.

Same applies to Good/Evil afterlife. For an Evil being, the Good afterlife would be unbearable. No chance to do Evil for all eternity? No way! Evil afterlife would be preferred because althrough one's gonna get abused, you will always have the chance to abuse someone lower in the food chain (or outside of it). And even if you start as the butt monkey, you will always have the expectative to rise in the ranks.

In the material world, evil overlords always have an army of thugs and goons who accept to take a lot of abuse and do their master's willing. Why someone in the material worlds agrees to be the lowest in the rank of Evil minions, instead of serving the Good powers who would treat them much better? Because, despite the abuse they have to bear, they need to do some evil, and serving Evil they have the chance to do so. And they have the expectative to rise in the ranks and be less time in the bottom. Same applies to the Evil afterlife.

For a Good being, who gets no pleasure in abusing others, the Evil afterlife makes no sense. But for an Evil being, who needs to abuse others more or less often, the Evil afterlife makes all the sick and wicked sense. His punishment is just all the pain they suffer in order to have the chance to inflict pain in others.

No matter what, no one wants to end up on Canceri in their after life. Even when you rise to power as a Demodand, your still more or less incapable of ever leaving, not to mention you'll be preyed upon by at least two species of Planar Dragon, the Styx dragon and the Tarterian dragon. Not to mention that the place is home to the vast majority of titans, one of the strongest gods of evil, Epic Level Liches and Death knights. Vast armies of the other, superior fiendish races.

Although because of their lack of variety rising to the top is a fairly quick process. As all you have to go through is Grub, Faratsu, Kelubar, and then finally the coveted but fairly easily reached rank of Shator. Of course once you reach Shator, there's the ladder of hit dice advancement. But that's a small price to pay compared to the stupidly long cycle to Balor.