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View Full Version : What SHOULD the Evocation school be? (3.X)



afroakuma
2009-03-24, 09:00 PM
I always hear about evocation being the weakest school of magic in 3.X, but it seems this is in the most part for two reasons:

1) That virtually all evocation spells involve energy damage, aka "blasting"

2) That shadow evocation and greater shadow evocation reduce reliance on the few non-blasting spells at evocation's disposal.

Now, laying aside the fact that I don't think contingency should work with greater shadow evocation, it occurs to me that something got lost in translation from 2.5 to 3.0 as regards evocation spells.

So to return to the question at hand: what should the Evocation school include under its banner, beyond simple blasting? What else should it have primary capabilities in?

crazedloon
2009-03-24, 09:07 PM
It should disappear in my opinion.....

most damage spells should fall under conjuration (fireball is conjuring fire for example makes sense to me)
spells like contingency is more of a divination

ect for all spells as I really don't see the school being all that uniquely different from the other schools....

That or take any spell that does damage such as the orb spells/ disintegrate ect should be moved to evocation as such it becomes needed to do any damage as a caster.

quick_comment
2009-03-24, 09:09 PM
Evocation should deal with ALL spells that manipulate energy. Im looking at you, orb of anything but acid spells!

Also, it should have debuffs that use energy. A fire spell that blinds. An ice spell that paralyzes. A sonic spell that dazes and stuns.

Maybe also give it the ability to create (not summon) some elementals.

It ought to have some mobility spells. A jetpack spell would fall under evocation. So would ice-man-esque movement.

Flickerdart
2009-03-24, 09:13 PM
Well, Evoking always struck me as something that should be spectacular and intimidating, so shifting a few Illusion and Enchantment spells for Blinding and Fear effects wouldn't hurt. Evocation should be the opposite of subtlety, methinks, all full of itself and not afraid to show off. I'm not sure what that would involve beyond blasting, though. Certainly some terrain modification could be useful, battlefield control of "the floor is made of lava" variety.

quick_comment
2009-03-24, 09:15 PM
I agree. Evocation should be very flashy.

The floor to lava thing is covered by transmutation though. It wouldnt stop a duplicate evocation spell from melting the floor though.

JoshuaZ
2009-03-24, 09:17 PM
The presence of the orb spells in conjuration rather than evocation goes a long way to reducing the usefulness since the best thing evocation does is blasting and with the orb spells you can have decent blasting from conjuration. Furthermore, almost all evocation spells allow both a save and allow spell resistance.

For evocation to work the orb spells at minimum need to be moved over from conjuration. And probably as a general rule all energy spells need to be there (excepting possibly acid but calling that an energy is stupid anyways).

Telonius
2009-03-24, 09:40 PM
The Evocation school ought to contain spells that call forth or manipulate non-sentient energies, and possibly elementals. Spells having to do with summoning creatures should be Conjuration.

Evocation, in general, has a couple problems with it. First, the Wizard usually has a lot better things to spend his time on than doing direct damage to a foe. This isn't necessarily as much of a problem with Evocation as such, as it is a fact about the rest of his spells. Second, it's usually iffy as to whether an Evocation spell will work. (Will the enemy make its save? How about SR? Energy resistance?) Third, it doesn't always scale particularly well. Even at 20th level, something like Polar Ray is only doing 20d6 (an average of 70) damage. Your standard Shock Trooper charge build can get that without breaking a sweat.

There are some terrific spells in the school - Forecage, Contingency, and Wind Wall, for example. What's different about those? None of the three problems apply. They are the thing that's better to do, they always work, and scaling is not an issue. But for most of the signature Evocation spells (Fireball, Cone of Cold, Lightning Bolt, etc) that's just not the case.

I'm really not sure how you'd go about fixing it, either. To make the signature evocation spells really worthwhile relative to the Wizard's other options, you'd have to bump up the damage quite a bit, and probably take away SR for a lot of them. But do we really need to be giving Wizards even better options? I suppose one other possibility would be for the Warlock or the Sorcerer to steal the whole school, though that might be a little drastic.

quick_comment
2009-03-24, 09:43 PM
Why not just uncap the damage on all the spells, so it scales, and make higher level spells have either better areas, or better secondary effects?

Cainen
2009-03-24, 09:47 PM
Why not just uncap the damage on all the spells, so it scales, and make higher level spells have either better areas, or better secondary effects?

Because that's not a fix. Damage still doesn't compare to save or dies, let alone save or sucks.

RandomFellow
2009-03-24, 09:56 PM
For the homebrew casting system I'm working on, I'm treating Evocation as purely energy manipulation. Admittedly, I'm using a 4 school system so Evocation is really Evocation AND Conjuration AND other things that fit in thematically with someone who is manipulating the very energy (e.g. negative energy) which animates the dead.

So it results in stuff like:
Blasting

Potency 1: 1d6 Negative Energy Damage
Potency 2: 3d6 Negative Energy Damage
Potency 3: 5d6 Negative Energy Damage
Potency 4: 7d6 Negative Energy Damage

Negative energy damage from this Thread is treated like the Inflict-line of spells. In other words, beings healed by Inflict spells and harmed by Cure spells are healed by this Thread's 'blasting' usage.
Unlife

Potency 1: Protection from Life: You gain an effect similar to the spell Protection from Evil except it protects against the Living rather than Evil.
Potency 2: Unlife's Embrace: You gain 2d6 in temporary HP. This temporary HP lasts for 24 hours or until lost.
Potency 3: Death to Undeath: Beings slain by a spell with this thread woven into it are brought back as Skeletons or Zombies at the caster's option. Undead created in this manner behave under the same rules as those raised by the Animate Dead spell.
Potency 4: Enervation: The subject suffers 1d4 negative levels which are handled as per the usual Negative Level rules with the exception of 'Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.'. That sentence is ignored.

Cold
Blasting

Potency 1: 1d6+1 Cold Damage
Potency 2: 3d6+3 Cold Damage
Potency 3: 6d6+6 Cold Damage
Potency 4: 10d6+10 Cold Damage

Gifts of Ice

Potency 1: Armor of Ice: The subject's flesh is cool to the touch. The subject gains an armor bonus of +4 or the existing armor bonus is increase by 1. This effect lasts for 1 hour per caster level
Potency 2: Ice's Protection: The subject gains temporary immunity to fire, electricity, acid, or cold damage. Once the subject has been protected from an attack of that energy type, the spell is discharged. Otherwise, the spell remains in effect for 24 hours.
Potency 3: Ice's Ally: You summon an Ice Mephit to your side (a neighboring square) for 4 rounds. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the Mephit, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
Potency 4: Wall of Ice: As per the spell

lsfreak
2009-03-24, 10:00 PM
You'd have to make it so that there's some combination of save-or-x's, battlefield controls, and serious buffs in Evocation. That's going to take some serious reworking of everything, and probably a lot of homebrewed spells as well.

Once you've done that, ban Shadow Evocation.

Flickerdart
2009-03-24, 10:08 PM
Because that's not a fix. Damage still doesn't compare to save or dies, let alone save or sucks.
It also competes with the party's Glass Cannon and BSF, while co-operating with them would be a lot better for the game as a whole. Secondary effects are an idea, like 4E's Wizard. The problem is that the Fireball-flinging wizard is so iconic that you can't change Evocation too drastically. It's the blow stuff up school, the offencive school, the spells that make the peoples fall down. We have to keep that in mind.
However, its good spells (Wall of Force, Contingency, Wind Wall, etc) don't match this. So we have to make iconic spells that still do what they're supposed to do. Looking at the spells that don't suck, we see that they all protect the wizard, not lay waste to his enemies, which is against this school's thesis. This is a problem. It's possible that we could make these spells temporary buffs (such as cast Fireball on the Fighter's sword, and the next time he swings it, the effect applies) although that might not really help at all. Perhaps the AoE hits allies, and imbues their weapons instead?

afroakuma
2009-03-24, 10:15 PM
It's the blow stuff up school, the offencive school, the spells that make the peoples fall down. We have to keep that in mind.

I think that's actually the fundamental mistake that's led us here. Evocation is so pigeonholed compared to every other school that there's never any thought as to "what else could it/should it be capable of?" which is what I'm trying to address.


However, its good spells (Wall of Force, Contingency, Wind Wall, etc) don't match this.

I disagree. Wall of force is an energy type manipulation (force), wind wall is a creation of motile energy (much as is gust of wind, another evocation spell) and contingency...

Contingency is a throwback to the old Invocation/Evocation school, which deals with interacting with the rules and structure of raw magic, in this case by crafting a spell within a spell that casts itself. Evocation used to have spell sequencers, as well.

Barring the "damage only" concept, SRD gives us:


Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects

Starbuck_II
2009-03-24, 10:22 PM
It also competes with the party's Glass Cannon and BSF, while co-operating with them would be a lot better for the game as a whole. Secondary effects are an idea, like 4E's Wizard. The problem is that the Fireball-flinging wizard is so iconic that you can't change Evocation too drastically. It's the blow stuff up school, the offencive school, the spells that make the peoples fall down. We have to keep that in mind.

However, its good spells (Wall of Force, Contingency, Wind Wall, etc) don't match this. So we have to make iconic spells that still do what they're supposed to do. Looking at the spells that don't suck, we see that they all protect the wizard, not lay waste to his enemies, which is against this school's thesis. This is a problem. It's possible that we could make these spells temporary buffs (such as cast Fireball on the Fighter's sword, and the next time he swings it, the effect applies) although that might not really help at all. Perhaps the AoE hits allies, and imbues their weapons instead?

No, we have to make blasting decent to effect this.

See, this is why Psions win compared to Wizards when it comes to blasting (ignoring cheese).
Psions have scaling energy powers with DC (granted they pay more for that benefit).

So we need to make Evocations do what they do but a good choice. It doesn't need to be just damage bonus, but something.

Like:
Fireball:
Make it deal its normal effect (1d6/level, cap 10d6) + makes area hit on fire for 1rd /level. Sure, that is only 1d6 fire damage + catching on fire (reflex save negate) , but that adds actual battlefield control aspect.

See, now even Batman might consider using Fireball (he loves his battlefield control and his no save and sucks).

Make Cone of Cold not just Fireball as a Cone:
Deal normal effect + area becomes difficult terrain as ground is covered in ice (or maybe it would be slippery as ice might make one fall; idea is there either way). Secondary 1 rd/level as well.

See, now Cone of Cold becomes decent compared to Fireball based on its secondary effect
(seriously, what designer thought Cone of Cold should be fireball as cold damage was a good idea?).

Zaq
2009-03-24, 10:26 PM
Almost anything instantaneous, or nearly so, should be Evocation. Orb of X, Telekinesis, Inflict/Cure (not that Wizards should have access to those), Disintegrate, arguably Teleport and its ilk.

Looking at the psionic discipline of Psychokinesis is a good start. It has a lot of energy powers and general blastiness, but it's got some other options too, like Null Psionics Field, Control Body, and Dispel Psionics. Giving Evocation a few good utility spells, like the Teleport line and maybe Dispel (probably not Antimagic Field, but I can see Dispel being an evoked burst of arcane "static" that disrupts existing magic, can't you?), though not so many as to make the schools they're known for useless, would help a lot.

As others have said, Evocation needz moar save-or-X that don't simply do damage. Almost every other school has at least a few unique and useful save-or-X debuffs/killswitches, but evocation is just damagedamagedamagedamagedamage. While it's fun to slap 20d6 on the table, we don't need fifty different ways to do so, and we need ways to do something else as well.

Collin152
2009-03-24, 10:28 PM
Well, it needs more creative uses of energy manipulation is all.
I remember this one homebrew fire evocation spell I posted some time ago; it was a save or die, save and be exhausted and slightly damaged spell.
See? Save or die, save and suck/lose, Evocation. Spells like that fit right in.

sonofzeal
2009-03-24, 10:29 PM
Well... a lot of Evocation spells do great things for battlefield control. Wall of Force and the entire Bigby line are Evocation spells. We tend to associate the school more with Fireball, but really the school as a whole is a mix of damage and BC, much of it with an emphasis on damage-and-move. Check out Seeking Ray, Great Thunderclap, Wall of Force, Howling Chain, Contingency, and Bigby’s Grasping Hand for reasons why Evocation is horribly underrated.

That said, quasi-real illusions are just broken and render the whole thing basically obsolete.

Tensu
2009-03-24, 10:31 PM
I'd say that the problem is more that shadow evocation and heavily damaging conjuration spells should not exist than any problem with evocation itself.

but then I don't really know anything about D&D other than the base knowledge to understand webcomics based on it.

Flickerdart
2009-03-24, 10:32 PM
Well, as long as the flavour's there, it's fine by me. Starbuck II has a great idea with the additional effects.

I've always liked the flavour of the Pyrokineticist ability to heat people's insides up so much they have to save or die. It's not exactly subtle, it implies great power (albeit shoddy execution, but we're talking about style) and is, I think, a good example of how Evocation can do Save or Dies. You're not disjoining the person's molecules, you're not snuffing out their life energy, you just broil them with brute force.

The Manly Man
2009-03-24, 10:40 PM
There's not much wrong with Evocation, it's still a good way of doing damage. The problem is that other schools are just... better.

Step 1: Get rid of shadow evocation and the like. If you want to evoke, evoke. Don't fake it...

Step 2: Orbs change school from conjuration to evocation. You can plead thematics on this one, but conjuration is more than powerful enough without them, and evocation can use the boost.

Step 3: ???

Step 4: Profit.

Eldariel
2009-03-24, 11:16 PM
One of the biggest, easiest changes you could add that would make the school better would be to add the logical consequences of the energy attacks to the spells. Fireball obviously should have a shockwave; Fort-save vs. getting knocked down. Also, add "being lit on fire" for the failed Ref-save.

Lightning Bolt I could easily see causing Daze for a round on a failed Fort/Will-save (can't decide which, but the idea of being in a state of shock and unable to act seems very much like what a quick current running through you might do), Cone of Cold could apply some variety of Slow-effect and so on.

The other thing is to up the damage/other effects of the higher level Evocations (basically everything up from Cone of Cold; they just don't live up to their level). As it stands, you're almost always better off preparing metamagicked lower level Evocations than higher level ones simply because you lack the caster level to truly utilize the high level ones, and the low level ones do more damage anyways.


Those all make a whole lot of sense and would really improve the usability of damage. The present issue with damage is that it doesn't really hamper opponents at all; a character with 1 HP is just as dangerous as one with 1000.

Of course, the other problems are Wizards stepping on other classes' toes and so on, and those would persevere, but that'd open up the route to playing an interesting spellcaster that feels like a caster, not an archer.

But yeah, a thing to understand is why Wizards' direct damage went from one of their strongest tricks to what it is now: 3rd edition HP happened. In AD&D, average HP was simply much, much lower across the board. In 3rd edition, there was a very substantial HP increase, but spell damage was not increased (thanks to the functioning of Power Attack though, melee damage was).

This basically meant that where a Wizard could crisp the entire horde of opponents in AD&D, he'd merely succeed in tickling them in 3e with the same effort; it became much more efficient to simply ask them "save or be as good as dead", especially as caster stat was added to save DC making it rather easy to ramp up.


Also, this is not to say that you couldn't make a good damage dealing Wizard; what I'm saying is that it involves abusing another added 3e mechanic with a lot of abusability - metamagic. More precisely, it requires abusing metamagic cost reducing effects. It's an awful lot of work, but once going through it, you'll have a Wizard who's very good at blowing things up.

The problem is though, that the out-of-box Wizard is pretty bad at it and you need to bend some rules that weren't meant to be bended (such as metamagic costing less than +1) to make it work out; this leaves us with two problems that need to be dealt with - the metamagic abuse and the out-of-box weakness.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-24, 11:44 PM
I really think all the schools need to be scrapped and replaced. But if we insist on keeping to the current setup, Healing and Inflicting need to come to Evocation, as do the Orb spells, and pretty much anything with an [Element] discripter. Toss in better ways to use energy, such as Electricity spells which are save or be Dazed, Acid spells that deal stat damage, and AoE Cold spells that are Save or be unable to move for one round, new save each turn. We're talking massive Homebrew, though, so it's probably simpler to just continue to ignore the school.

Saph
2009-03-24, 11:57 PM
There's not much wrong with Evocation, it's still a good way of doing damage. The problem is that other schools are just... better.

Step 1: Get rid of shadow evocation and the like. If you want to evoke, evoke. Don't fake it...

Step 2: Orbs change school from conjuration to evocation. You can plead thematics on this one, but conjuration is more than powerful enough without them, and evocation can use the boost.

This. Just make Evocation the damage school, and move all the damage spells into it. Problem solved.

Fireball is a perfectly good spell - it's just that people don't use it effectively. You use it for blasting large groups of enemies at long range, and as an area-destruction effect. You don't use it to shoot single tough critters with energy resistance point-blank. Several of the spellcasters in my Red Hand of Doom campaign used blasting spells, and they proved very effective in the right situations. There were at least two encounters where the entire battle was effectively won by the wizard/sorc manouvering into a good right position and nuking the entire enemy unit at once.

The problem at the moment is that a bunch of the best damage spells aren't Evocation, which makes no sense. Put stuff like the Orbs into Evocation and you'll see the school get way more popular.

- Saph

dyslexicfaser
2009-03-25, 03:01 AM
I never bar evocation, myself. There's plenty of excellent spells in it.

Contingency and Forcecage and Wall of Force were already mentioned, but that's not all evocation brings to the table. Forcecage isn't even all that great, 1500g per casting gets old quick.

Search out for Lord of the Sky for flying and sundry little abilities, Instant Refuge for quick escapes, Howling Chain and Bigby's Grasping Hand for all-battle-long free grapples. There are also Telekinetic Sphere that has quite a few uses if you're tricky, little tricks like Shatter and Gust of Wind and Sending and Wind Wall and even Submerge Ship (Fantasy!submarine go), and various damage/debuff spells like Ice Storm, Great Thunderclap, and Blacklight.

There's even spiffy thematic spells like Delayed Fireball and Detonate (do you want to explode your opponent y/n?)

Okay, it's not as good as Conjuration or Transmutation, but it's not bad, either.

I usually toss Necromancy and Abjuration or Enchantment and keep Evocation.

Fizban
2009-03-25, 07:02 AM
I pretty much agree with everyone. Switch most of the instantaneous conjurations to evocation (which includes most of the damaging spells, such as the eponymous orbs): if it doesn't last for more than a few seconds than you evoked it, not conjured it, otherwise there's absolutely no difference between them. Move some of the instantaneous transmutations as well (telekinesis, rock to lava and such), the ones that can be fluffed as a massive energy change. This should make conjuration and transmutation less ridiculously awesome, and bring some save or X over to evocation while preserving it's role as the damage school by taking back the good damaging spells from conjuration.

You could also make sweeping modifications to non evocation damage spells, making them deal damage comparable to cleric spells like holy smite. Clerics aren't supposed to deal damage with spells, so their damaging spells only do 1d8/2 levels instead of d6/level, except against undead and evil outsiders most of the time. If evocation is the damage school, then other schools should be similar. I'd also change shadow evocation to deal no damage on a succesful save and reduced damage on a failed save (though you'll have to adjust the percentages or they'll be completely useless).

Finally, on increasing damage to make blasting better. Ever notice that an empowered fireball at CL 10 is 15d6 while a cone of cold at CL 10 is 10d6? Sure you have a DC 2 lower, but you're only losing 25% damage on a succesful save compared to what a failed one with the cone would do anyway. Even ignoring how constitution makes the d6s ridiculously small compared to enemy hp, the number of hit dice goes up faster than CL, so why shouldn't damage dice? Say spells at 5th level get 1.5 dice per CL and 7th level starts getting 2 dice per CL. It even matches the trends of lower level spells: 1st level spells deal 1d6/2 levels, 3rd deal 1d6/level, 5th deal 1.5d6/level, 7th deal 2d6/level, and 9th deal pretty much whatever you want (I've seen several that are die or take 1d6/level anyway). Of course, this means empower spell is no longer a boost, instead basically becoming the damage version of heighten spell: fake it on one aspect of the spell to make up for not knowing a higher level version.

I was going to say something about psionics, but they actually get it worse in the long run for damage output: while they have scaling DCs and an extra +1/die damage with fire and cold, one of the things that makes spellcasting superior is that your lower level "insignificant" spells are actually very significant. No reason to blow your 5th level slot on 10d6 cone of cold (as a psion would have to spend points for 10d6) when you can use an old 3rd level slot for 10d6 fireball, not to mention all the long duration buffs you have going at full caster level, often with scaling benefits.

Hmm, the above two paragraphs make me wonder: based on empower spell, trading -2 DC gets you a 50% damage boost. Could that be made into it's own feat? It should probably be more like -5 or -10, but the certanty that you'll deal 75% max is better than hoping they'll fail if 50% won't cut it.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-25, 10:08 AM
One of the biggest, easiest changes you could add that would make the school better would be to add the logical consequences of the energy attacks to the spells. Fireball obviously should have a shockwave; Fort-save vs. getting knocked down. Also, add "being lit on fire" for the failed Ref-save.

Issue is Fireball has no pressure: No pressure means no shockwave I thought.
So it messes with Fireballs flavor.
But burning targets on fire makes sense.



Lightning Bolt I could easily see causing Daze for a round on a failed Fort/Will-save (can't decide which, but the idea of being in a state of shock and unable to act seems very much like what a quick current running through you might do), Cone of Cold could apply some variety of Slow-effect and so on.

Nah, dazing steals from Orbs.

Lightning bolt should have its own niche.

These would be my changes starting level 1:
Level 1:
1) Burning Hands: In addition, a target hit takes -1 penalty to reflex saves for 5 rounds as the pain slow their ability to dodge.
2) Floating Disk: Fine as is.
3) Magic Missle: If you target one creature: you get an additional +1 damage per missile.
4) Shocking Grasp: you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls and SR checks if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like)
Notes:
Burning Hands: Just loses it benefit after a while. The penalty kinda ups BH's benefit.
MM is just a damage dealer so just made it better in cases there is one target.
Shocking Grasp gets bonus to attack rolls but not SR: why?

2nd level:
1) Continual Flame: fine as is.
2) Darkness: fine.
3) Flaming Sphere: When the sphere misses a target for any reason it gains a cumulative +1 to DC against that target until dispelled/time runs out.
4) Scorching Ray: fine.
5) Shatter: Fine.
Notes:
As a Reflex Negate, Flaming sphere needs something so if it misses a target once, it will more likely the second time.


3rd Level
1) Daylight: fine.
2) Fireball: In addition, hit is on fire for 5 rds. Any creature within the area at start of their turn takes 1d6 fire damage and must make a reflex negate or catching on fire.
3) Lightning Bolt: In addition, caster is charged with static electricity for 5 rds. Any enemy that starts turn in, moves into, or moves out of a sqaure adjacent to the caster must make a Fort save 1/2 or take 3d6 electric damage.
4) Tiny Hut: Fine.
5) Wind Wall: Fine.
Notes:
Fireball burns stuff so let us make it burn the area adding some battlefield control.
Litghtning, by constrast, deals damage then buffs the caster in the unfortunate chance enemies move by him.

4th level:
1) Fire Shield : fine.
2) Ice Storm: In addition, the area is saturated with a feeling of cold. For 5 rounds, creatures inside area have -1 penalty to Fort Saves.
3) Resilent Sphere: Fine
4) Shout: SR: No. Really that is all it needs.
5) Wall of Fire: Fine.
6) Wall of Ice: Fine.
Notes:
Shout has good effects, but damage is low SR issues. So why not remove SR. Damage will still be low, but it shines a little more now.
Ice Storm leaves nothing so I could only affect area with as chill so I did.

5th level:
1) Cold of Cold: In addition, for 5 rounds areas is frozen with ice making ground slippery. Creatures inside that area must make balance checks DC 10each round or fall down.
2) Interposing Hand: Fine.
3) Sending: Fine.
4) Wall of Force: really fine.
Notes:
Cold of Cold has little on Fireball in Core. So this benefit lets it replicate sleet storm's grease effect with a balance mechanic.

6th level:
1) Chain Lightning: In addition, caster is charged with static electricity for 5 rds. Any enemy that starts turn in, moves into, or moves out of a sqaure adjacent to the caster must make a Fort save 1/2 or take 7d6 electric damage.
2) Contingency: Fine.
3) Forceful Hand: Fine I think.
4) Freezing Sphere: In addition, for 5 rounds any creature that starts turn within area is slowed.
Notes:
Chain lightning follows Lightning Bolts idea and buffs caster.
Freezing sphere needed a tiny boost as well.

But this is only a thought experiment.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-25, 10:21 AM
Force descriptor = Evo, Evocation is the manipulation of unseen forces, then make evocation the only way to access the irresistable (almost literally) Force effects. To include mage armor and Shield.

Prismatic effects = Evo. These effects manipulate not one but several types of energy, These effects should come from the school that manipulates energy, so they fall under evo.

Wall spells = Evo. These effects Create a wall of some material From Nothing. Gives you battle field control

+1 vote for orbs in evo.
+1 vote for Save or x where (x != just damage) and (save != reflex).
+1 vote for shadow evo going away
+1 vote for adding debuff effects to evo spells, since spell damage is crap to start with.

Shadow Evo needs to go away since it gives you the ability to ban evo, and not lose a darn thing in the process. It means illusion is as good as illusion + evo and Illusion is still no considered one of the best schools. Shadow Conjuration can stay, lets face it if you ban conj, you need something.

As another thought, Make evokers only give up one school to specialize like diviners.

mostlyharmful
2009-03-25, 11:07 AM
As another thought, Make evokers only give up one school to specialize like diviners.

Good idea. I may have to nick that one. It'd make Evo a whole bunch more useable in game without having to institute a dozen+ houserules that can be forgotten or only partially followed. Much easier to have a single, easy rule like that that does the job.

I'm also a good fan of having the Evo line blasts SR:No and the conjured ones yes, the Evo is manipulating stuff that actually is while the Conj is magicing up magic energy and then shoving it around magically..... leave the Orb line where they are but reverse the SR rulling, makes just as much sense this way round as the other and Conj would still be one of the two best schools.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-25, 12:05 PM
I'm also a good fan of having the Evo line blasts SR:No and the conjured ones yes, the Evo is manipulating stuff that actually is while the Conj is magicing up magic energy and then shoving it around magically..... leave the Orb line where they are but reverse the SR rulling, makes just as much sense this way round as the other and Conj would still be one of the two best schools.

Nah, we don't need to rob Jim to pay Sally.

Leave Orbs as they are.

NO SR for Conj makes sense for the rules a written.

But move Orb of Force to Evocation since how does on Conjur nom-magical Force?

imperialspectre
2009-03-25, 12:19 PM
One fix I've toyed with is simply giving damaging Evocation spells the Explosive Spell metamagic. It gives a minor boost in damage as well as inflicting what is effectively a status effect (the prone condition) and serving a battlefield control role of sorts. Thoughts?

Lapak
2009-03-25, 12:24 PM
Nah, we don't need to rob Jim to pay Sally.

Leave Orbs as they are.

NO SR for Conj makes sense for the rules a written.It really doesn't. It never has. They are instantaneously-created, short-duration, magically-created objects, just like the fire in a Fireball or the lightning in a Lightning Bolt. I've never bought the distinction that 'THIS magically conjured fire is real, THAT magically conjured fire is magical.' If the conjured stuff acted like regular stuff in any other way than ignoring SR - if an Orb of Fire did damage strictly as normal fire, for example - then I could believe it. But as it is the only real distinction is the one in the rules.


But move Orb of Force to Evocation since how does on Conjur nom-magical Force?How does Conjuration create fire that does more damage than regular fire, without being magical fire?

Moving near-instantaneous-duration Conjurations to Evocation is the #1 thing that needs to be done to fix Evocation, really, with a second point being the Shadow Evocation bit. Anything in a school that falls outright into another school's role, especially if it does it better in some way, is a problem, and Evocation is the favorite target of such spells.

lsfreak
2009-03-25, 02:04 PM
One fix I've toyed with is simply giving damaging Evocation spells the Explosive Spell metamagic. It gives a minor boost in damage as well as inflicting what is effectively a status effect (the prone condition) and serving a battlefield control role of sorts. Thoughts?
It makes it very difficult to hit a group of creatures twice, depending on the situation. Quickened Fireball -> Fireball in a large, open place could easily spread opponents out so far that the second fireball becomes useless.

And it runs the risk of messing up melee characters. "He's just in charge range!" *Fireball!* "...nevermind. I take a double move action."

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-25, 02:13 PM
Look at the WoW Mage. That is your quintessential Evoker.

Yes, he 'only' does damage... but generally does enough damage to kill whatever he is blasting at if he chooses the right flavor. That turns it into an AE Save Or Die effect, since if you don't make your saving throw, you are dead.

Evocation just doesn't have the damage output needed to demonstrate this, vs the tons of hit dice medium to high level encounters have.

tyckspoon
2009-03-25, 02:23 PM
It makes it very difficult to hit a group of creatures twice, depending on the situation. Quickened Fireball -> Fireball in a large, open place could easily spread opponents out so far that the second fireball becomes useless.

And it runs the risk of messing up melee characters. "He's just in charge range!" *Fireball!* "...nevermind. I take a double move action."

Careful location of the spells can minimize this kind of risk. Instead of placing the center of the spell right in the middle of an enemy group, move it a little to the back or side of them. Now any that get moved are shoved in generally the same direction. Likewise, there's no reason you couldn't place your Fireball behind the meleer's target, causing the spell to propel it toward the fighter instead of away.

That does tend to only happen with Burst spells, mind; Cone effects would usually just shove targets out the sides, and Lines just shift them five feet sideways in most situations other than a ten-foot wide corridor.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-25, 03:20 PM
To be honest, here some things to do to give Evocation back it's power:

1) kill the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration line.
2) Remove the Orb Of type spells from Conjuration
3) Remove SR from instantaneous Evocation effects, like Fireballs. In effect, you are creating magical fire, which burns you. Being immune to magic doesn't make you immune to being burned. There are enough things with resistance/immunity to elemental effects to toss this at them as well.

Lapak
2009-03-25, 03:28 PM
3) Remove SR from instantaneous Evocation effects, like Fireballs. In effect, you are creating magical fire, which burns you. Being immune to magic doesn't make you immune to being burned. There are enough things with resistance/immunity to elemental effects to toss this at them as well.This could actually go a long way towards balancing non-damage spells vs. damage spells, if hit point damage from spells always ignored SR.

afroakuma
2009-03-25, 09:58 PM
Does anyone have any opinions on expanding Evocation's niche? Broadening its abilities in force effects, auxiliary magical constructions, information transference, light effects and wind control, among other things?

Fjolnir
2009-03-25, 10:27 PM
Evocation to me is fairly flashy and temporary but the EFFECTS can be permanent or long lasting, with the exception of things constructed out of pure magic (wall of force, force cage, etc) evocation is the magic of making something from nothing, be it small points of pure magical energy, explody balls of fire, or a house that nobody can enter but you and whomever you designate. it doesn't pull items from elsewhere (conjuration) or make items into other items(transmutation) or create the semblance of items(illusion) I disagree with most people about the orb of fire thing, what you're doing is pulling a chunk of the elemental plane of fire out of nowhere and pitching it at your foe HOWEVER, this means that conjurers should be limited to orb of air, orb of water (MAYBE orb of frost), the afformentioned orb of fire, and some sort of "pitch a rock at them" spell and evocation should get the others. The other schools tend to use magic to either prevent something from harming or getting to an item (abjuration), directly influence the mind (enchantment), the detection of items/people either in the now or in the future (divination), and the bonds of life as it relates magically to energy (necromancy) [I personally would move ALL healing spells to necromancy if I had the choice here] I didn't include these in the upper group because they don't quite relate to the conversation at hand though I could see moving some of the save or sucks from necromancy into evocation with a little reflavoring of how they work

aje8
2009-03-25, 10:30 PM
Um can I point something out, it's not really a good thing to improve damage spells in anyway. In fact, anytime a wizards blasts he's basically stepping on the other party members toes, perhaps he should NOT DO THIS AND NOT BE ENCOURAGED TO DO THIS?

No, we really don't want wizards blasting at all. Ever. For any reason. Despite it being iconic, it's not really good for the having and it's not good for the wizards power level because it screws over the newbies.

My suggestion:
Eliminate all blast spells. That's right all of them. Now, make evocation a credible school with some kinda new niche. I'm not entirely sure what it is yet..... but maybe you just eliminate it entirely? You then make Contigency Divination, Wall of Force Conjuration and the "Hand" line of spells in Conj also probably.

If wizards can't blast, Polymorph, Alter Self ect. are banned, then the Wizard won't likley step on others toes. He'll still own the Fighter, but the fighter won't notice that it's the wizards haste and glitterdust winning the encounters because he's doing the smashing and the tanking.

Fishy
2009-03-25, 10:48 PM
Conjuration magic creates raw matter and creatures from nothingness, and also teleports.

Transmutation magic converts matter into other kinds of matter, and also buffs and disintegrates.

Realistically, what could you want to do to a physical object that isn't in one of those schools? That's Evocation's problem right there.

afroakuma
2009-03-25, 10:52 PM
Realistically, what could you want to do to a physical object that isn't in one of those schools? That's Evocation's problem right there.

Kill it with fire? :smallsmile:

My suggestion is that Evocation not deal directly with matter at all, but instead interact with and manipulate magic in its purest form, as it does with contingency, for example.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-25, 10:56 PM
Kill it with fire? :smallsmile:

My suggestion is that Evocation not deal directly with matter at all, but instead interact with and manipulate magic in its purest form, as it does with contingency, for example.

Of course, then you start having problems with other schools. After all, Abjuration often deals with that too, as evidenced by Dispel Magic. Perhaps you should simply combine them into one school?

Fjolnir
2009-03-25, 11:02 PM
Conjuration magic creates raw matter and creatures from nothingness, and also teleports.

I don't think conjuration creates anything, it either BRINGS or SENDS something SOMEPLACE ELSE, be it bringing a critter from another plane to attack something for you temporarily (why all the monsters on the summon list that would be critters have fiendish or celestial templates), making a ball of elemental energy and pitching it at a foe (all of the orb of X tricks) or folding space to bring you from point a to point b rapidly (any teleport effect). Basically conjuration vs evocation is the difference between going out and buying a tomato vs growing your own (couldn't think of an equivalent analogy timewise but you get the idea)

afroakuma
2009-03-25, 11:03 PM
Well, there's always overlap no matter what one does. For example, prismatic sphere, whose strong basis in Evocation gives lie to its placement in Abjuration.

Collin152
2009-03-25, 11:06 PM
Kill it with fire? :smallsmile:

My suggestion is that Evocation not deal directly with matter at all, but instead interact with and manipulate magic in its purest form, as it does with contingency, for example.

So, move Dispel Magic, Disjunction, Protection from Spells, Spell Resistance... Well, it'd make the school useful alright.
And then some new magic-manipulation spells. That'd be cool too. Maybe I'll come up with some.

afroakuma
2009-03-25, 11:17 PM
Certainly disjunction fits the mold, being big, flashy and an imbecilic application of one's casting ability. :smalltongue:

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-25, 11:18 PM
Of course, then there's practically no reason to use abjuration, so it becomes the new evocation.

afroakuma
2009-03-25, 11:23 PM
Well, I don't agree with spell resistance or protection from spells, not to mention Abjuration still holds spells like banishment, mind blank, globe of invulnerability, dimensional anchor, etc.

Collin152
2009-03-25, 11:23 PM
Of course, then there's practically no reason to use abjuration, so it becomes the new evocation.

Oh, it's still got gems. Mage armor... greater mage armor... shield... Umm...

monty
2009-03-25, 11:33 PM
Oh, it's still got gems. Mage armor... greater mage armor... shield... Umm...

And by that you mean just shield, since the first two are conjurations.

Collin152
2009-03-25, 11:34 PM
And by that you mean just shield, since the first two are conjurations.

Not anymore!

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-25, 11:35 PM
Not anymore!

Well, as evocation has proved, having only 3 good spells doesn't make a mediocre school, so even by changing those two spells you aren't helping matters.

Collin152
2009-03-25, 11:39 PM
Well, as evocation has proved, having only 3 good spells doesn't make a mediocre school, so even by changing those two spells you aren't helping matters.

It helps that there's no such thing as Shadow Abjuration.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-25, 11:42 PM
It helps that there's no such thing as Shadow Abjuration.

But even before, the only spells that were making the school worthwhile were the Dispel Magic line, and even then it was a common banned school. Now you made it worse than evocation was.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-03-25, 11:43 PM
I always hear about evocation being the weakest school of magic in 3.X, but it seems this is in the most part for two reasons:

1) That virtually all evocation spells involve energy damage, aka "blasting"

2) That shadow evocation and greater shadow evocation reduce reliance on the few non-blasting spells at evocation's disposal.

Now, laying aside the fact that I don't think contingency should work with greater shadow evocation, it occurs to me that something got lost in translation from 2.5 to 3.0 as regards evocation spells.

So to return to the question at hand: what should the Evocation school include under its banner, beyond simple blasting? What else should it have primary capabilities in?
Hit points used to level off and your Con had to be had to be a 15 before you got a +1 bonus to hit points. A Con as high as 18 only gave you +2. A Con of 19 was effectively supernatural. . .

"Warrior classes" got the 3 points per level after level 9 with no bonuses. Everything in toughness above the Mage got 2 hit points after level 9.

I imagine this might've had something to do with evocation's relative effectiveness.

afroakuma
2009-03-25, 11:44 PM
Well, as evocation has proved, having only 3 good spells doesn't make a mediocre school, so even by changing those two spells you aren't helping matters.

Now why are you being such a wet blanket? :smalltongue:

Resilient sphere is also useful, as is grasping hand. The problem is that core is biased to the narrow view of Evocation as being "the blasting school."

Zaq
2009-03-26, 12:32 AM
I mentioned this earlier, but didn't really expand upon it: I think teleport, dim door, and similar spells could be evocation as much as conjuration. While they sort of make sense as conjuration, they don't make significantly enough less sense as evocation to justify them not being there. Conjuration still has most of its tricks (grease, black tentacles, solid fog, glitterdust, summon X... just to stick to lowish-level and core), but evocation suddenly gets a major line of utility spells, useful both in and off the battlefield.

Giving it teleporty spells, removing Orb of X, and nixing Shadow Evocation should give it a huge boost.

I also think that the whole contingency-effect has potential, maybe even as a new subschool, like polymorph. Of course, only the biggest ones would be "When [X EFFECT THAT YOU CHOOSE] happens, [Y EFFECT THAT YOU CHOOSE] also happens." Nevertheless, we can still have "When X happens, Y happens" make sense. Just off the top of my head (giving no thought to spell level), an example spell. Totally unpolished and probably unbalanced, but kind of the right idea:

Triggered Gust
Evocation [Air, Contingency]
Sor/Wiz 3
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Duration: 1 rd/lv or until triggered
Target: Personal
Components: V, S

You imbue yourself with an unborn blast of air, waiting to be released. The next time you take damage from an enemy melee attack, this spell activates. A blast of air forces you away from the enemy, sending you 1d4 + (1/2 CL, maximum +5) five-foot squares away instantaneously. If you succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + damage taken), you can control the direction of your movement. If you fail the save, you go in a random direction (use the rules for direction as though missing with a splash weapon). In either case, moving this way provokes attacks of opportunity as normal, except from the enemy that scored the hit that triggered this spell. If this spell is dispelled, or if the duration elapses without being triggered, the spell dissipates harmlessly.

That's just made up off the top of my head. I'm sure it could use some tuning, but the basic concept is there. Contingency spells, if done properly, could be a powerful tool.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-26, 07:03 AM
Kill it with fire? :smallsmile:

My suggestion is that Evocation not deal directly with matter at all, but instead interact with and manipulate magic in its purest form, as it does with contingency, for example.

Recent reading has inspired in me the idea that evocation is somewhere between conjuration and alteration - excuse me, transmutation.

The idea being that conjuration makes something from nothing or summons something from somewhere else. Transmutation alters something. Evocation, then, draws out the elements that comprise something. A fireball isn't magically creating fire, it's finding the fire inside the air and pulling it to the surface. The wizard could similarly pull water out of the air, or earth out of water, though neither of those would likely be particularly helpful.

One could potentially add invocation back into the school, allowing the wizard to feed elements into things. You want to hide behind a table? Fine, I'll pour earth into it - now, it's a really hard table. The enemy's hiding behind a locked stone door? I'll invoke air into it to weaken it so we can smash it down.

Furthermore, in the D&Dverse, magic is basically an element, allowing us to evoke that as well. You can evoke magical force out of air. So what does invoking magic do? That would be what we call enchantment - it has so many applications, it's generally considered its own school. But D&D has so many other elements that it shouldn't be hard to come up with lots of stuff this way.


Hit points used to level off and your Con had to be had to be a 15 before you got a +1 bonus to hit points. A Con as high as 18 only gave you +2. A Con of 19 was effectively supernatural. . .

"Warrior classes" got the 3 points per level after level 9 with no bonuses. Everything in toughness above the Mage got 2 hit points after level 9.

I imagine this might've had something to do with evocation's relative effectiveness.

Also, in 2e, saves are very easy to pass, so it's almost always more effective to do damage than to waste time hoping that your enemies will fail that save which they have an 85% chance of passing, especially when the save-or-die usually can effect fewer targets than the blast.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-26, 09:19 AM
It helps that there's no such thing as Shadow Abjuration.

Ooh, next time I make an illusionist wizard I'm so researching that.

I'll make Shadow Adbjuration, lesser; Shadow Aburation, and if high enough Shadow Aburjation, Greater.

You'll be able to mimic shield, protection from evil, Endure elements, Hold Portal, and even Alarm.
Sure, there is a small chance they won't function right.

I'd make Shadow Abjur lesser level 3: covers 1st-2nd level ones. 20% real

Shadow Abjur 6th level: Covers 1-5. 60% Real.

Shadow abjur, Greater level 9: Covers 1-8. 80% real.

lesser_minion
2009-03-26, 01:05 PM
I think I agree with Fax Celestis on this one - there are too many schools of magic and they overlap too much. I would be tempted to axe conjuration and necromancy from the game, and hand out those spells as a start.

Alternatively, I also like the idea of handing all of the Power Word spells, healing spells and Creation spells to Evocation - how on earth is Power Word, Kill a conjuration spell?

That would actually make evocation pretty decent and still give conjurers something to do. At the same time, evocation now gets all of the conjurations that appear to be dealing with the raw essence of magic.

afroakuma
2009-03-26, 03:14 PM
how on earth is Power Word, Kill a conjuration spell?

It isn't... it's an Enchantment spell.

lesser_minion
2009-03-26, 03:18 PM
OK, that will teach me for not double-checking to see whether or not it had changed. Although Enchantment [compulsion] actually makes even less sense than Conjuration [creation] IMO.

afroakuma
2009-03-26, 03:35 PM
It's supposed to compel the victim to die.

Fjolnir
2009-03-26, 04:00 PM
So it's Suicidal Compulsion? I think PW:K needs to either be evocation or necromancy, the arguments against are fairly weak about it being anything else (unless it compels the victim to kill themselves on a failed save)

afroakuma
2009-03-26, 04:09 PM
For a compulsion death effect, observe this (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061113) (Warning: Girl Genius spoiler)

The idea is that since it's a Power Word, when spoken it is so potent as to crush the will of the victim (who doesn't even have to hear it), thus forbidding a saving throw. It's essentially an unshakeable command whose power is limited only by actual vitality and by a life force strong enough to not snuff out on command.

I think it's actually a highlight of a different sort of Enchantment; certainly it's a different death effect than the Necromancy school (which deals with negative energy and soul manipulation)

lesser_minion
2009-03-26, 04:11 PM
I don't really buy the idea of compelling a victim to die. It leaves a few inconsistencies (why does it prevent raising if all you are doing is forcing the victim to die?).

I always thought that Power Word spells were all about being spells of pure awesome that simply re-write the universe so that X happens. That makes a lot more sense as Evocation or Universal than as an Enchantment.

Also, compelling a victim to die seems more like the province of the Command series - possibly a "Final Commandment" spell which can compel the victim to actually die.

afroakuma
2009-03-26, 04:27 PM
(why does it prevent raising if all you are doing is forcing the victim to die?).

er... I don't see that in its description anywhere.

lsfreak
2009-03-26, 04:40 PM
Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by death effects, other stuff does.

afroakuma
2009-03-26, 04:46 PM
I thought it had something to do with the subtype. Stupid SRD...

I would assume it's because the soul was removed in an unconventional manner, and thus raise dead doesn't have the chops to pull it off.

lesser_minion
2009-03-26, 04:48 PM
The header includes the [death] descriptor, so it blocks Raise Dead automatically. That might not have been RAI, though.

You can still use Resurrection on the target

My problem is that 'compelling the victim to die' is a long, long way away from the "snuffing out the victim's life essence like a candle flame" that a Death Effect normally implies.

Edit - Ninja'd

Another Edit - Admittedly, WotC does seem to have changed the whole "Death Effects snuff the victim's life essence out like a candle flame". Disintegrate isn't a save-or-die any more and even Crisis of Life is now apparently a Death effect. But not Crisis of Breath, which is not actually that far from its big daddy.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-26, 05:13 PM
Well, it could be implied that the compulsion remains after death, and that raise dead simply lacks the ability to overcome this fact.

afroakuma
2009-03-28, 09:44 AM
So far, I've come up with new spells for evocation that are basically variants of its "good spells," but I'd like some new directions to look at.

Thus far, I've created force rails, incandescent flame of destruction, maze of force, programmed contingency, my own version of spell sequencer and wind shear, but I'm looking at branching out into unexplored areas.

Opinions?

Thane of Fife
2009-03-28, 09:51 AM
The ideas sound good, but the names are dull - make up some wizard names to stick in front of them. Something like "Adrogar's Maze of Force".

lesser_minion
2009-03-28, 09:55 AM
It could be interesting for 'pure destructive impulse' to fall into the province of Evocation as well (i.e. you blast someone with raw destructive energy rather than disjoining their molecules). That would give you something like a mass or AoE disintegrate for 9th level (as well as possibly making disintegrate hop over).

I guess Thane of Fife might be right as well - some of the names might be a little unevocative.

Roderick_BR
2009-03-28, 10:17 AM
Evocation, in general, has a couple problems with it. First, the Wizard usually has a lot better things to spend his time on than doing direct damage to a foe. This isn't necessarily as much of a problem with Evocation as such, as it is a fact about the rest of his spells. Second, it's usually iffy as to whether an Evocation spell will work. (Will the enemy make its save? How about SR? Energy resistance?) Third, it doesn't always scale particularly well. Even at 20th level, something like Polar Ray is only doing 20d6 (an average of 70) damage. Your standard Shock Trooper charge build can get that without breaking a sweat.
That's very true. Back in AD&D, and possibly first ed. D&D, having a wizard with a fireball and a lightning bolt ready to take on several henchmen, or just take out a large chunk of the BBeG's HP was a biggie. Your average fighter or dwarf couldn't compare. On the other hand, wizards were more frail, without the ability to become immune to everything, or kill things in less than 1 round from 100ft away, needing the fighters to help keep him alive. 3.x screwed the power balance in several different ways.

afroakuma
2009-03-28, 10:31 AM
The ideas sound good, but the names are dull - make up some wizard names to stick in front of them. Something like "Adrogar's Maze of Force".

Well, come on, I only just did the spells and I'm more worried about balance than names at the moment. I'll get there.

Force rails creates one invisible immovable rod per level and places them as you see fit. Good for grappling, tripping, pinning or just for building a ladder. I'm sure many other entertaining uses could present themselves.

Incandescent flame of destruction is a fire spell worthy of 9th level. It conjures a tiny flame so hot and so bright that everything in a nearby radius is blinded (no save) and burned. You also get to actually make a touch attack with it, which replicates a fiery disintegrate.

Maze of force is wall of force but more controlling. You place the individual wall segments to form invisible hallways and rooms. Battlefield control on steroids.

Programmed contingeny is a more powerful contingency. You select three spells of up to 6th level each. The first one triggers on a primary condition, the second one triggers under a second condition if and only if the primary trigger has fired, and the third one can be either sequential to the second or tangent to the first.

Spell sequencer is of course the effect that lets you store low-level spells and release them all at once.

Lastly, wind shear is a more powerful gust of wind that deals slashing damage.

Fishy
2009-03-28, 11:04 AM
Actually, I like Shadow Abjuration.

Wizard: "I am an invincible warrior! Fear my arcane might!"
Barbarian rolls a nat 20 to disbelieve
Barbarian: "You are a small man in a silly hat."

Shadow Enchantment: "The illusion of me convincing you is so convincing that you're actually convinced."

Shadow Divination: "Is that my future?!" "No, but it really looks like it might be, doesn't it?"

Shadow Necromancy, of course, convinces a corpse that you've actually animated it, creating a zombie which is immune to illusions and instantly collapses.

Fjolnir
2009-03-28, 12:36 PM
I think something like "shadow necromancy" would hide the corpse and create an illusory zombie that could be disproved but very tough to outside of it's initial raising

Fishy
2009-03-28, 01:04 PM
"Of course that's him. I'm a wizard and I brought him back from the dead, didn't I?"

afroakuma
2009-03-28, 03:57 PM
Meh; if you can shadow conjure a creature, then you can shadow necromancy a zombie... just one that's 20% as effective.

Collin152
2009-03-28, 07:36 PM
Meh; if you can shadow conjure a creature, then you can shadow necromancy a zombie... just one that's 20% as effective.

Free zombies at 20% efficiency. That don't count towards your Animate Dead control cap. It could be useful.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-28, 07:43 PM
Free zombies at 20% efficiency. That don't count towards your Animate Dead control cap. It could be useful.And that assumes you are limited to 20%. Free Skeletons at 90-150% capacity gets scary fast.

afroakuma
2009-03-28, 07:57 PM
I personally don't think even the shadowcrafter should be able to create hyperreal shadow effects; I cap it at 90% no matter what.

But that's neither here nor there. Any thoughts on broadening evocation?

Flickerdart
2009-03-28, 09:13 PM
Meh; if you can shadow conjure a creature, then you can shadow necromancy a zombie... just one that's 20% as effective.
So, you can animate 1/5th of a skeleton...are there stats for a torso anywhere?

chiasaur11
2009-03-28, 09:18 PM
So, you can animate 1/5th of a skeleton...are there stats for a torso anywhere?

No, Skulls.

You think Mort gave you the whole story?

afroakuma
2009-03-29, 07:07 AM
Further suggestions on evocation? Anyone?

lesser_minion
2009-03-29, 10:41 AM
I guess there could always be some kind of blood boiling power, although Necro has that covered with Horrid Wilting.

There are also things like combined effects - something with a name like Winter's Fury - cone-effect blinds, pushes back and does cold damage, also leaving behind a load of nonmagical snow or ice which makes the area difficult terrain for a few rounds.

You could even have something like Flash Fire - ignites the terrain ahead of you and then drives a lethal fire away from you for as long as you concentrate. Could be absolutely devastating if used correctly.

You also have the effects like mobile personal wind walls and walls of force.

For a really unpopular option, spells that can target and damage equipment might be worth considering.

Maybe a touch attack fire thingy which has a kind of cleave-like effect when it drops something.

And then you have the option of nasty "shroud of nastiness" spells - an opponent shrouded in selective flame would take damage every round and be blinded. And possibly suffer con damage from smoke inhalation.

Even a smoke attack could be pretty cool. Smoke effects take out actions and easily fall within the province of Evocation.

There could even be attacks like scorching already open wounds, creating hideous burns straight through to the bone - or even a spell which automatically scorched any wound the target suffers (negating any fire-bypassed regeneration, fast healing or DR it posseses against normal attacks)

Of course, these may all head straight for the Utility Belt of Doom.

afroakuma
2009-03-29, 11:18 AM
Of course, these may all head straight for the Utility Belt of Doom.

I don't follow.

And many of these are still X energy sort of things. I'm looking for new territory.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-29, 01:20 PM
I don't follow.

And many of these are still X energy sort of things. I'm looking for new territory.

That is all Evocation should do. It works with X energy. That is what it does. It does it well, but that's it. If you try to add in things besides x energy, it no longer becomes Evocation.

afroakuma
2009-03-29, 01:29 PM
That is all Evocation should do. It works with X energy. That is what it does.

I'm saying that it can, and should, have a broader role than that. Looking at contingency, gust of wind and wind wall, we can see it doing other things. But it gets pigeonholed so that all it's ever allocated are more elemental energy effects.

lsfreak
2009-03-29, 02:20 PM
Wind wall and gust of wind are both elemental effects. Looking through the PHB, the only Evocation spells that aren't are elemental are Contingency and Sending. Evocation's role as elemental effects can work fine, provided there are spells like shatter, wind wall, the various Bigby's hands, and so on that give other effects than straight damage.

afroakuma
2009-03-29, 02:42 PM
You forgot Darkness, Continual Flame, Dancing Lights, Flare, Light... unless we're using Mana series elements.

The SRD definition of Evocation:


Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing.

So there are other effects available. The problem is that the designers largely skewed to the "elemental blasting" idea and sat there.

I am explicitly asking for input to help determine what else Evocation should be capable of. This means effects other than blasting, elemental effects...

sailor_grenoble
2009-03-29, 02:57 PM
why not make Evocation the school for raw, un-directed magical effects?
the other schools of magic would all contain sophisticated, precise and adequate tools, while Evocation would only contain a hammer (and a big one, the kind of hammer that hits the nail, and your thumb and the next nail in line if you're not careful enough)

examples:
while Enchantement might give you things like Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, etc..., Evocation would let you "evoke" the cosmic stuff of which the ideas of Peace, Friendship, Loyalty, etc... are made of. As an Evoker, you won't be able to really direct the effect, but it will be some raw, powerful effect over a zone.
Transmutation gives you Telekinesis, while Evocation lets you evoke the idea of "Hand" (the Bigby's Various Hands line)
Conjuration gives you Mage Armor, Evocation gives you Wall of Force

etc...

afroakuma
2009-03-29, 10:21 PM
That's still stepping on toes. I'm looking for new territory, things along the lines of contingency, sending or spell sequencer.

quick_comment
2009-03-29, 10:53 PM
Magic Sentinal
Sor/Wiz 8 [Evocation]
Duration: Until empty

After casting the magic sentinal, you can cast evocation spells (up to total spell levels = caster level) into it. You may attach a condition to each spell. The sential follows you, floating within 5 ft of you, until a condition is met. It instantly flies to wherever the condition directs it, and relases that spell, and then flies back to you. It cannot be directly targeted except by dispel magic and similar spells. You may only have one sentinal active at a time.

Destroy Spell
Sor/Wiz 7 [Evocation]
Casting time: Immediate Action
Choose one spell that was cast in the current round. Since its magic has not yet had time to "set", you can disrupt it with this spell. The spell effect explodes. Any creature in its area of effect or under its effects take Xd8 damage, where X is the level of the spell. The spell ends.

Wizard's surprise
Sor/Wiz 3 [Evocation]
Duration: Until discharged or 24hours
After casting arcane warding, cast one arcane spell you know that deals damage in an area. It does not take effect. The next time you are surprised, you can active the cast spell as an immediate action, and cast it anywhere within 30ft. You may designate up to 1 creature/level that is not affected by the spell.

Battlefield Mastery
Sor/Wiz 9 [Evocation]
Duration: 1 minute/level
When you cast this spell, you gain awareness of 50ft/level around you. You cannot sense things you could not perceive with your ordinary senses. As a free action once each turn, you may, anywhere in the area of your enhanced senses erect or remove the following spells: wall of force, wall of fire or wall of ice.

streakster
2009-03-29, 11:47 PM
Tossin' out ideas:

Uncontrolled Flight - Transmuters alter themselves to soar aloft. You, on the other hand, simply throw yourself around with raw force. Swift action throws the user 10ft*CL in any direction they specify in a straight line (including up), and a random amount in some other direction. If aloft, the user falls next round. Reflex save to avoid falling prone.

Comet Burst - As Uncontrolled Flight, but you have a fire aura and create an explosion wherever you land.

Oncoming Wall - As a wall of force, save that at casting you determine a direction. Every round, the wall moves in that direction, pushing creatures and objects along with it.

Spell Star - Create an orb that you can fill up with low-level spells. At your command, it casts them all - but on random targets. Best thrown into a concentration of enemies before using.

Maze Seed - Creates a wall of fire. Every round after being cast, however, to a maximum number of rounds equal to of your caster level, more walls of fire spring grow from the first, creating a maze.

Rising Disk - As floating disk, save that it rises quickly into the air. Great for quick ascents, whether for you or your foes.

Shatterwall - A wall of sonic energy. All objects and projectiles attempting to move through it must save or be sundered. Crystal beings take heavy damage.

Shatter Arrow - Immediate action spell that can shatter a projectile in flight.

Cavitate - Sonic vibrations temporarily liquefy rigid matter - affects all objects in radius as shatter, can create holes, down walls, tunnel through stone and cause landslides. Heavily damaging to crystal and stone beings.

Spell Disk - Holds an evocation spell. When a being steps on the square containing the disk, said spell goes off. Can be picked up and moved by caster.

Broadcast - Sends a message to [CL] targets.

Imbued Sending - As sending, save that an evocation spell may be spent as well when casting this spell. Any target that responds with a predetermined phrase, sound, or word, suffers the spell imbued into the sending.

Loudspeak - You may heard, at conversational tones, up to [CL] miles away. You may shout at a target near you as a swift action in an attempt to daze it.

Force Fortress - Creates a fortress of force walls, floors, and so on. You may control the layout at casting, but the size of the fortress you create is determined by your caster level. Craft(Masonry) or Knowledge(architecture) checks can also result in larger or more complex fortresses.

Fortress Addons - (require skill checks to add on to spell)
Prison - Creatures tossed within are subject to a force cage spell.
Force Engines - When manned by an ally, can cast magic missiles, though not at your caster level.
Fire Moat - A wall of fire surrounds the fortress.
Wind Moat - Wind wall surrounds fortress.
Lights - Light spells, strewn throughout fortress.

Force Blade - Creates a blade of force in the shape of any weapon you are proficient with. Can be given to other creatures to wield, and can store a spell that will trigger on the target struck by a critical.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-30, 01:26 PM
You forgot Darkness, Continual Flame, Dancing Lights, Flare, Light... unless we're using Mana series elements. Are all elemental effects. Light and Darkness.


The SRD definition of Evocation:
Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing.In other words, elemental and energy effects.



So there are other effects available. The problem is that the designers largely skewed to the "elemental blasting" idea and sat there.

I am explicitly asking for input to help determine what else Evocation should be capable of. This means effects other than blasting, elemental effects...

None.

Seriously, you are trying to twist something into something it is not. Contingency shouldn't even be Evocation, it should probably be Abjuration. They just stuck it in Evocation to throw the dog a bone.

If it doesn't have anything to do with energy, or elemental effects, it should not be Evocation.

Having said that, there are a plethora of effects that Elemental effects could do besides damage and more damage. Sonic/Lightning can stun, Cold can chill, Fire can cause Damage over Time. You can use a sonic effect to Shatter, or to Stun. You can use Fire to burn someone from the inside (Save or Die effect). You can use Force effects to augment attacks, or to fling around damage that is almost impossible to stop.

But trying to turn Evocation into something other than that is turning it into something that is not Evocation. Don't like it? Fine. But that is where Evocation is. You are trying to redefine Evocation in ways it should not go in the D&D world. Which is why I am making my own game, and having a different method of partitioning magic.

lsfreak
2009-03-30, 02:13 PM
Yea, I was considering summoning Light and Darkness from nothing to be elemental.

Too add on to what ShneekleyTheLost said...
Fire: People flail around from being on fire. Unable to be healed normally due to charred skin. Save-or-dies. Area denial by making it dangerous to cross. Straight damage buffs. Mental damage from fever conditions (Parboil from Sandstorm is great). Clouds of smoke as a side effect.

Lightning effects: Blindness/deafness. Melting armor. Dazing/stunning. Retaliatory buffs (you hit me, lightning flies in your face). Charring/flailing from being caught on fire.

Thunder: Deafness, dazing, stunning, knockdowns, "silence."

Cold effects: Dex damage, limiting combat actions, and paralyzing. Blindness from ice crystals. Invigorating allies with gusts of chill wind. Unable to heal normally because of frostbite.

And so on. You just have to make spells that fit it.

afroakuma
2009-03-30, 03:11 PM
Are all elemental effects. Light and Darkness.

Are not elements.


None.

Seriously, you are trying to twist something into something it is not.

No, I am trying to return something to what it used to be, in the same vein that Enchantment used to be more than simply mind-affecting powers.

If you disagree, then that's fine, but I happen to believe otherwise. I believe that the school traditionally held sway over metacasting effects and other effects dealing with magic and spells. I agree that Evocation's primary function has always been energy effects, but I don't think that's the be-all, end-all of what the school was or should be.

Now, to quote myself:


I am explicitly asking for input to help determine what else Evocation should be capable of. This means effects other than blasting, elemental effects...

Your answer was: it should be capable of nothing else, and should lose contingency in the bargain. Fine. You have stated your opinion.

For the rest: if you have suggestions on how to improve elemental or energy effects, I am explicitly not looking for them. I appreciate that they may be good ideas, but they're not the input I'm after. I want to know what else there is that isn't covered under the eight schools that would feel appropriate under Evocation's jurisdiction. If your opinion is the same as Shneekey's, then that's your prerogative, but I'm not here to argue right or wrong on this.

quick_comment
2009-03-30, 06:10 PM
Evocation in my mind, is tapping into raw magic and spraying it around like a hose.

So while a transmuter might refine the raw magic and use it in the same way a water saw might use water, the evoker uses it like a firefighter uses a hose.

So I think its ok to replicate some effects from other schools, just make it messier. Teleports that have large errors. Spells with variable durations (that you dont know how long they last). Almost wild magic, but a but more controllable than that.

arguskos
2009-03-30, 06:26 PM
For the rest: if you have suggestions on how to improve elemental or energy effects, I am explicitly not looking for them. I appreciate that they may be good ideas, but they're not the input I'm after. I want to know what else there is that isn't covered under the eight schools that would feel appropriate under Evocation's jurisdiction. If your opinion is the same as Shneekey's, then that's your prerogative, but I'm not here to argue right or wrong on this.
You DID see streakster, right? (spoilered for length)

Tossin' out ideas:

Uncontrolled Flight - Transmuters alter themselves to soar aloft. You, on the other hand, simply throw yourself around with raw force. Swift action throws the user 10ft*CL in any direction they specify in a straight line (including up), and a random amount in some other direction. If aloft, the user falls next round. Reflex save to avoid falling prone.

Comet Burst - As Uncontrolled Flight, but you have a fire aura and create an explosion wherever you land.

Oncoming Wall - As a wall of force, save that at casting you determine a direction. Every round, the wall moves in that direction, pushing creatures and objects along with it.

Spell Star - Create an orb that you can fill up with low-level spells. At your command, it casts them all - but on random targets. Best thrown into a concentration of enemies before using.

Maze Seed - Creates a wall of fire. Every round after being cast, however, to a maximum number of rounds equal to of your caster level, more walls of fire spring grow from the first, creating a maze.

Rising Disk - As floating disk, save that it rises quickly into the air. Great for quick ascents, whether for you or your foes.

Shatterwall - A wall of sonic energy. All objects and projectiles attempting to move through it must save or be sundered. Crystal beings take heavy damage.

Shatter Arrow - Immediate action spell that can shatter a projectile in flight.

Cavitate - Sonic vibrations temporarily liquefy rigid matter - affects all objects in radius as shatter, can create holes, down walls, tunnel through stone and cause landslides. Heavily damaging to crystal and stone beings.

Spell Disk - Holds an evocation spell. When a being steps on the square containing the disk, said spell goes off. Can be picked up and moved by caster.

Broadcast - Sends a message to [CL] targets.

Imbued Sending - As sending, save that an evocation spell may be spent as well when casting this spell. Any target that responds with a predetermined phrase, sound, or word, suffers the spell imbued into the sending.

Loudspeak - You may heard, at conversational tones, up to [CL] miles away. You may shout at a target near you as a swift action in an attempt to daze it.

Force Fortress - Creates a fortress of force walls, floors, and so on. You may control the layout at casting, but the size of the fortress you create is determined by your caster level. Craft(Masonry) or Knowledge(architecture) checks can also result in larger or more complex fortresses.

Fortress Addons - (require skill checks to add on to spell)
Prison - Creatures tossed within are subject to a force cage spell.
Force Engines - When manned by an ally, can cast magic missiles, though not at your caster level.
Fire Moat - A wall of fire surrounds the fortress.
Wind Moat - Wind wall surrounds fortress.
Lights - Light spells, strewn throughout fortress.

Force Blade - Creates a blade of force in the shape of any weapon you are proficient with. Can be given to other creatures to wield, and can store a spell that will trigger on the target struck by a critical.

I was gonna toss some stuff out there, but I think streakster beat me to it quite handily. :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2009-03-31, 12:39 AM
There's one homebrew Evocation spell I made that I rather like - Impale. Enormous spikes of force shoot down from above or up from below the target. Reflex save or die. There is, of course a Mass Impale as well. :smallbiggrin:

Devils_Advocate
2009-04-03, 08:44 PM
The Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation spells should probably be both Illusion and Evocation, if they ought to exist at all. It only makes sense for you to need Evocation magic for the real part and Illusion magic for the illusory part, neh? (Similar deal for the Shadow Conjuration line of spells.)

Explosive Runes, Fire Trap, and other such trap spells that hurt things should be Evocation, not Abjuration.

Being the school of energy, Evocation should cover spells of motion and speed: Telekinesis, Haste, Slow, Fly, Feather Fall, Mage Hand, Time Stop, etc.

Disintegrate should be in Evocation because it involves shooting a ray of destructive energy at stuff. It should probably also destroy gear for both balance and verisimilitude reasons, but that's another discussion.

Obviously, Evocation ought to get all of the splatbook "conjurations" that are really evocations.

Generally speaking, Transmutation and Conjuration were the crazy uber schools of 3.5, in large part because you can describe any effect as a change in the properties of things, and you can in theory accomplish any effect by summoning up a special whatchamahoozit to do whatever you want done. Consequently, you can basically place any spell you want into one of these schools with no more justification than fluff appropriate to the school you put it in, and sometimes the game designers did. So when you want to shore up another school, they're good candidates to loot things from, because they got more than they deserve.

But it's not just the overpowered schools that got misassigned spells. Spells like Forcecage and Wall of Force use a form of "energy" that conveniently behaves like matter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PureEnergy). In other words, they use a form of matter that gets called energy instead of matter. That's just another case of using fluff to justify sticking a spell in an inappropriate school, and a fairly blatant example of it too. Those spells are really Conjuration, or maybe Abjuration because they block movement.

krossbow
2009-04-03, 09:29 PM
Evocation should deal with pure reactionary type spells; AKA, a spell that causes an effect composed of energy of some type.

This means explosions of fire, beams of heat, sonic waves, lightning bolts, ect. Unfortunately, this would mean something like meteor swarm, which conjures physical meteors due to their bludgeoning damage, would be in conjuration, but i can deal with that.
IMO, the orb spells should be inferior in damage to evocation spells; this is due to the host of advantages they have, such as not winking out when fired at anti-magic fields, and due to the that they should really just be a fallback spell for those who outlaw evocation.





But don't fool yourself, evocation is weak due to the other spell schools being OP, not that Evocation is underpowered. Evocation is something that isn't going to make a wizard god, nor will it make his party useless. The other spells will.
Evocation needed a buff, but the other schools needed a nerf too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-03, 09:42 PM
IMO, the orb spells should be inferior in damage to evocation spells; this is due to the host of advantages they have, such as not winking out when fired at anti-magic fields, and due to the that they should really just be a fallback spell for those who outlaw evocation.Or they should just be Evocations.
But don't fool yourself, evocation is weak due to the other spell schools being OP, not that Evocation is underpowered. Evocation is something that isn't going to make a wizard god, nor will it make his party useless. The other spells will.
Evocation needed a buff, but the other schools needed a nerf too.You've got it backwards. A blaster Wizard is competing with his party. Either the Wizard is better, or the Fighter is. A Batman Wizard or a God Wizard is helping his party. Haste on the meleers is both more effective than blasting, and makes them feel like they won the battle. Grease makes Archer Rogues viable before they can afford a Ring of Blinking. Solid Fog causes Dragons to slam into the ground, meaning now the Fighter can hurt them. It's not all Rays of Clumsiness and Dominate Persons, you know. Being God isn't easy. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all. Futurama quote

arguskos
2009-04-03, 09:45 PM
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all. Futurama quote
Why you gotta make everything easy? I was all like, "ah-ha! I see what you did there" and then you're all like, "puts it in white text". Punk. :smallannoyed:

krossbow
2009-04-03, 09:50 PM
Or they should just be Evocations. You've got it backwards. A blaster Wizard is competing with his party. Either the Wizard is better, or the Fighter is. A Batman Wizard or a God Wizard is helping his party. Haste on the meleers is both more effective than blasting, and makes them feel like they won the battle. Grease makes Archer Rogues viable before they can afford a Ring of Blinking. Solid Fog causes Dragons to slam into the ground, meaning now the Fighter can hurt them. It's not all Rays of Clumsiness and Dominate Persons, you know. Being God isn't easy. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all. Futurama quote



Not if each has a specific TYPE of damage. A Blaster mage has a much higher advantage against large groups of enemies. Conversely, an Uber charger is better at damaging a single opponent.


Basically, the idea is that the wizard is better at dealing with a large mass of opponents in damage, given the number of high level cone and explosion spells, while the fighter and others would be more adept at taking down the big guy.

While its unfortunately falling into a camp similiar to 4.0, the design would be that the wizard is better at mopping up the battlefield as a whole, not singular beings.

Most blaster spells fall into this area, and, while the execution has been bad, the idea itself is not flawed.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-03, 10:03 PM
Not if each has a specific TYPE of damage. A Blaster mage has a much higher advantage against large groups of enemies. Conversely, an Uber charger is better at damaging a single opponent.


Basically, the idea is that the wizard is better at dealing with a large mass of opponents in damage, given the number of high level cone and explosion spells, while the fighter and others would be more adept at taking down the big guy.Great Cleave. "But Great Cleave sucks", I hear you cry. "Yes, and so does Fireball," I respond. "What does that tell you?"

krossbow
2009-04-03, 10:10 PM
Great Cleave. "But Great Cleave sucks", I hear you cry. "Yes, and so does Fireball," I respond. "What does that tell you?"



I never said anything about fireball, nor do i think that it sucks nearly as bad as Great cleave. One is a spell and is therefore Infinitely better than the feat, as it can be changed daily for the wizard, while a fighter must use up almost 1/10 of his class resources to gain the other (on that note, i personally am of the mind that great cleave and cleave should have really been combined into a single feat).
Great cleave gets absolutely, completely DESTROYED by wizard AoE spells. A fighter will have to kill his opponent to get a chance to cleave the next, as well as dumping 2 feats into it, while the wizard merely needs to aim and be a wizard, no permanent charge.




That being said, i admitted already that evocation needed a buff in damage, and was arguing Design principle; i Stated that its execution has been horrible, and that damage needed to be increased across the board.
The wizard controlling the battle itself is a task that they are much better at than other tasks, and the nuker does not need to forsake that completely. There's a reason why they were made controllers in 4.0

BlueWizard
2009-04-04, 02:30 AM
Evocation as is is good.

mikej
2009-04-04, 03:57 AM
Fact: rolling lots of dice is fun.

Evocation isn't really a bad school, if you look at it from the newer player prospective. Not alot of real thought involved, just the basic knowledge of how many D6's you need. Its easy, lots of fun, plus not a lot of book keeping. My first real character was a Fireball obsessed Sorcerer, to me it was a great method to learn the rules. Somedays, I'd rather just start rolling big bags of D6's other than Save or Suck/Buff.

AgentPaper
2009-04-04, 04:43 AM
I think to fix evocation, you really have to fix the school system in general. The fluff is great, but how the spells are divided isn't so much. What I would do is to make a list of the general spell types, and then divide them up into which school is best at it, which schools aren't so good at it. For example:

Spell types:
Direct Damage
Area Damage
Control
Debuff
Buff
Summon
Utility
Save-or-Lose

Then, take the schools, and arrange them in what each one is best and worst at. Each school should be the best at some things, and unable to do others. Since there are 8 spell types and 8 schools, you can have each school be best at 2 things, good at another 2, poor at 2 more, and completely unable to do 2 others. You could also make it so that, for each spell type, 2 are the best at it, 2 are good at it, 2 are poor at it, and 2 cannot do it at all.

Aquillion
2009-04-04, 04:49 AM
Fact: rolling lots of dice is fun.

Evocation isn't really a bad school, if you look at it from the newer player prospective. Not alot of real thought involved, just the basic knowledge of how many D6's you need. Its easy, lots of fun, plus not a lot of book keeping. My first real character was a Fireball obsessed Sorcerer, to me it was a great method to learn the rules. Somedays, I'd rather just start rolling big bags of D6's other than Save or Suck/Buff.It really is underpowered, though. There's even a specific reason for it: In 2e, everyone had much less HP. In 3e, HP values were increased across the board... but because the d6-equal-to-your-level was "iconic" or whatever for fireball, it remained unchanged (leaving it far weaker than it was in previous editions, because now everyone had more HP.) And other spells were balanced around it, leaving blasting in general much weaker than it was intended to be.

mikej
2009-04-04, 07:43 AM
It really is underpowered, though. There's even a specific reason for it: In 2e, everyone had much less HP. In 3e, HP values were increased across the board... but because the d6-equal-to-your-level was "iconic" or whatever for fireball, it remained unchanged (leaving it far weaker than it was in previous editions, because now everyone had more HP.) And other spells were balanced around it, leaving blasting in general much weaker than it was intended to be.

Interesting, never played 2e soo I wouldn't know. Though I completely agree that the whole school is underpowered, while Conjuration can basically do the same and a lot more. I still like the school, maybe one day i'll rewrite some stuff to make it more of a serious school to specialise in.

Thane of Fife
2009-04-04, 08:32 AM
It really is underpowered, though. There's even a specific reason for it: In 2e, everyone had much less HP. In 3e, HP values were increased across the board... but because the d6-equal-to-your-level was "iconic" or whatever for fireball, it remained unchanged (leaving it far weaker than it was in previous editions, because now everyone had more HP.) And other spells were balanced around it, leaving blasting in general much weaker than it was intended to be.

It is also noteworthy that saves got tremendously more difficult to make between 2e and 3.x. Save-or-die spells were much more tilted towards save, which meant that the guarantee of significantly damaging someone with a fireball was probably better than using the much less likely to succeed Finger of Death or Dominate Person. 3.x not only made the latter spells harder to resist, they created Evasion, eliminating the guarantee of the blasts.

Eldariel
2009-04-04, 09:10 AM
It is also noteworthy that saves got tremendously more difficult to make between 2e and 3.x. Save-or-die spells were much more tilted towards save, which meant that the guarantee of significantly damaging someone with a fireball was probably better than using the much less likely to succeed Finger of Death or Dominate Person. 3.x not only made the latter spells harder to resist, they created Evasion, eliminating the guarantee of the blasts.

And worst of all, made Evasion available as a Ring, so all classes can acquire it. And yeah, in AD&D, Save-or-Dies were very effective on low levels, as everything had poor saves (Sleep was such a bomb back then too, and easily the best use for the Mage's low level slots), but as the save DCs didn't scale (save for spell-based penalties to saving throws on higher level spells) while saves did, they quickly grew unreliable.