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Myou
2009-03-26, 08:09 AM
I had the idea of my chaotic-leaning good party coming into conflict with a powerful samurai a good few levels above them, but given that I plan to just call him a samurai regardless of class, I was wondering what classes I should use to build him, can anyone help me out?

By the time they meet him they'll likely be ECL 10-12, so he'd need to be something like ECL 15.

All WotC material is allowed, except psionics.

Actual builds are more than welcome if anyone wants to go that far. :3

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-26, 08:15 AM
Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage.

Especially Warblade.

Focus on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart for solo, on White Raven for command.

woodenbandman
2009-03-26, 08:34 AM
Several options here:

If you want to do the "I have 2 swords and I use them well" Samurai, then you be a Warblade with a focus on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Tiger Claw. Feats to look at include Stormguard Warrior, and maybe that Tiger Claw tactical feat, and your first high level maneuver (level 17) is Time Stands Still, with no option for replacement. At level 15 (I'm playing a similar build), he should have... you know what, have a link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3956.0). Adamantine Hurricane is sweet, as is Dancing Mongoose, but at level 16 the build gets a bit more powerful, and it gets RIDICULOUS at level 17. Just don't abuse Stormguard Warrior and you'll be fine, if you do make extensive use of Stormguard Warrior, this guy can kill 2 people a round. Spread the attacks out, and he's just extremely dangerous, not instantly deadly.

If you want to do the "I am a leader of men and I charge fearlessly into battle" then you be a Crusader with a focus on (well, they only have 3 schools) White Raven, but you take some Devoted Spirit stuff like Iron Guard's Glare and maybe Shield Block. Also, take the tactical feats Clarion Commander and Faith Unswerving. This guy will be less of a "rip your head off before you can move" Samurai, and more of a battlefield leader who will run to the front, direct his men, as well as take hits very very well and come right back with a few strong hits. His delayed damage pool will fill up, allowing him to power attack with little penalty for a very good damage boost. It's nowhere near the damage of the first one, but he also has probably double his hitpoints and can wear heavy armor, and can put his Con score in the high 20s, rather than pumping his Dex. Don't forget the tactical support that Clarion Commander gives: some easy skill checks give tangible benefits. Be sure to invest in a decent charisma for this guy.

If you want a "Way of the sword" samurai, who studies opponents and counters them... The easiest way to do that is a Swordsage focused on Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, and maybe a bit of Shadow Hand, to weaken his opponents. This build's 15th level feat is Martial Stance to gain Stance of Alacrity, for an additional counter each round (HUGE). Or he could dip a level of a martial adept prestige class, so as to delay his last stance... perhaps take a level of Shadow Sun Ninja (requires Improved Unarmed Strike, so no real benefit.) or Eternal Blade (requires Elf, but loses a Human bonus feat.)

Anyway, this guy should ready a lot of Counter maneuvers, so that he can get the drop on his opponents when they come at him. His first action should be to do nothing, and as a Swordsage he will easily win initiative, if he takes Improved Initiative and gets his Quick to Act bonus. Setting Sun and Diamond Mind have the best counters, I believe, though Iron Heart has a few, which may make a dip into Eternal blade worth it because you can get Iron Heart maneuvers that way. Adaptive Style will be a must for this guy, and also consider tactical feats such as Elusive Target and Combat Panache. This build is attempting to take on many opponents at one time as possible and making them destroy each other. Also, Gloom Razor, for the Shadow Slip ability is great if you can get a flanking partner/use that 2nd level Desert Wind maneuver/somehow qualify for Clarion Commander, as it allows you to teleport around your foes much easier than actually using a tumble check (just DC 20 and you can shadow jump to any space adjacent to a flanked opponent if you hit them with a melee attack last turn while they you were flanking them).

Hope that this was both a hopeful primer on the Tome of Battle and a good representation of a Samurai. :smallwink:

bosssmiley
2009-03-26, 08:56 AM
Let's ask Toshiro Mifune. Toshiro?


"Mmmmmm...
Warbradu. Hai!"
/
http://www.anime.com/Akira_Kurosawa/images/03-mo-yojimbo.jpg

Myou
2009-03-26, 09:17 AM
Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage.

Especially Warblade.

Focus on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart for solo, on White Raven for command.

Heh heh, I was thinking people would say that, but say especially crusader. Shows that I don't know the ToB that well.


Several options here:

If you want to do the "I have 2 swords and I use them well" Samurai, then you be a Warblade with a focus on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Tiger Claw. Feats to look at include Stormguard Warrior, and maybe that Tiger Claw tactical feat, and your first high level maneuver (level 17) is Time Stands Still, with no option for replacement. At level 15 (I'm playing a similar build), he should have... you know what, have a link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3956.0). Adamantine Hurricane is sweet, as is Dancing Mongoose, but at level 16 the build gets a bit more powerful, and it gets RIDICULOUS at level 17. Just don't abuse Stormguard Warrior and you'll be fine, if you do make extensive use of Stormguard Warrior, this guy can kill 2 people a round. Spread the attacks out, and he's just extremely dangerous, not instantly deadly.

Hmmm, so he makes about 7 touch attacks and then the next round deals about +35 damage, and gets extra attacks in the provoke before that second turn?

I was thinking more of having him use a Nodachi rather than a Katana and Wakizashi, but that does sound tempting. xD


If you want to do the "I am a leader of men and I charge fearlessly into battle" then you be a Crusader with a focus on (well, they only have 3 schools) White Raven, but you take some Devoted Spirit stuff like Iron Guard's Glare and maybe Shield Block. Also, take the tactical feats Clarion Commander and Faith Unswerving. This guy will be less of a "rip your head off before you can move" Samurai, and more of a battlefield leader who will run to the front, direct his men, as well as take hits very very well and come right back with a few strong hits. His delayed damage pool will fill up, allowing him to power attack with little penalty for a very good damage boost. It's nowhere near the damage of the first one, but he also has probably double his hitpoints and can wear heavy armor, and can put his Con score in the high 20s, rather than pumping his Dex. Don't forget the tactical support that Clarion Commander gives: some easy skill checks give tangible benefits. Be sure to invest in a decent charisma for this guy.

Thanks for the tips, but alas, he's really more a solo fighter, as your previous paragraph outlined.


If you want a "Way of the sword" samurai, who studies opponents and counters them... The easiest way to do that is a Swordsage focused on Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, and maybe a bit of Shadow Hand, to weaken his opponents. This build's 15th level feat is Martial Stance to gain Stance of Alacrity, for an additional counter each round (HUGE). Or he could dip a level of a martial adept prestige class, so as to delay his last stance... perhaps take a level of Shadow Sun Ninja (requires Improved Unarmed Strike, so no real benefit.) or Eternal Blade (requires Elf, but loses a Human bonus feat.)

Anyway, this guy should ready a lot of Counter maneuvers, so that he can get the drop on his opponents when they come at him. His first action should be to do nothing, and as a Swordsage he will easily win initiative, if he takes Improved Initiative and gets his Quick to Act bonus. Setting Sun and Diamond Mind have the best counters, I believe, though Iron Heart has a few, which may make a dip into Eternal blade worth it because you can get Iron Heart maneuvers that way. Adaptive Style will be a must for this guy, and also consider tactical feats such as Elusive Target and Combat Panache. This build is attempting to take on many opponents at one time as possible and making them destroy each other. Also, Gloom Razor, for the Shadow Slip ability is great if you can get a flanking partner/use that 2nd level Desert Wind maneuver/somehow qualify for Clarion Commander, as it allows you to teleport around your foes much easier than actually using a tumble check (just DC 20 and you can shadow jump to any space adjacent to a flanked opponent if you hit them with a melee attack last turn while they you were flanking them).

Hope that this was both a hopeful primer on the Tome of Battle and a good representation of a Samurai. :smallwink:

Very helpful, thank you! ^^

MammonAzrael
2009-03-26, 09:26 AM
I'd like to take this moment to pimp my ToB Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4274953) homebrew class. :smallsmile:

He would be quite Intimidating at ECL 15. I'd post a rough build, but I don't know what race you were making him. Or what style of Samurai you were looking for.

Talya
2009-03-26, 10:21 AM
1. Oriental Adventures - Samurai. (Not the crap that is in CW)

This is a one or two level dip, and a very good one. For one level, you get the following:

D10 hit die
Full BAB.
4+int skills (x4 if it's your first level.)
High fortitude AND will saves
Ancestral Daisho. This is the fun part - it works out to starting with a masterwork katana and wakizashi and a kensai like-ability to increase them, but using money instead of experience. The money "sacrifice" cost is essentially half what item creation costs (because you get to sacrifice items for it at full value, rather than having to sell them at half price.) The best thing? This ability scales by character level, not class level. This is awesome.

Your second level continues on the above, but grants a bonus feat of your choice (generally from the fighter list, although OA breaks it down by clan.) If you are feat-starved in your build, it makes this a worthwhile 2 level dip instead of just one.

2. Warblade. For most of the reasons listed above.

Combined, those two classes make the perfect samurai.

afroakuma
2009-03-26, 10:43 AM
And I'll take this opportunity to pimp my non-ToB homebrew samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90342).

Start with two levels of monk for two bonus feats, Evasion and the AC bonus, using your high Wis to get extra ki use and duration for your samurai abilities. 13 levels of samurai gets you several feats, the bulk of your ki abilities and +2 to augmenting.

woodenbandman
2009-03-26, 10:43 AM
Minor nitpick, the warblade makes 11 touch attacks, because he uses Raging Mongoose for +2 attacks with each weapon wielded.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-26, 10:57 AM
Ancestral Daisho. This is the fun part - it works out to starting with a masterwork katana and wakizashi and a kensai like-ability to increase them, but using money instead of experience. The money "sacrifice" cost is essentially half what item creation costs (because you get to sacrifice items for it at full value, rather than having to sell them at half price.) The best thing? This ability scales by character level, not class level. This is awesome.


Best part: you can choose your mast4erwork weapon: it even says some Samurai use spears, etc.

So you don't have to use Katana/Washashi. You can use a nodashi, etc.

HeavySleeper
2009-03-26, 11:20 AM
1 or two levels of the Oriental Adventures samurai, and then Warblade. Possibly Swordsage or Crusader depending or the flavor, as above people have noted.

You can use the Samurai levels to grab ranks in Iaijutsu Focus. It's a neat little skill that only exists in Oriental Adventures that lets you deal more damage based on a check when you draw your weapon. A bit abusable at low levels, but it'll be fine at the level you're at.

Myou
2009-03-26, 12:47 PM
I'd like to take this moment to pimp my ToB Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4274953) homebrew class. :smallsmile:

He would be quite Intimidating at ECL 15. I'd post a rough build, but I don't know what race you were making him. Or what style of Samurai you were looking for.

Oooh, I like it! :o

A build would be greatly appreciated, his race probably wouldn't be human, so that doesn't really matter - no extra feat to allocate - and my initial idea was for him to use a Nodachi, so since you have that included then please go for that one. :3


...

The OA Samurai looks like a good dip indeed, but as an NPC wealth doesn't atter so much for him. For a PC that looks great though. ^^


And I'll take this opportunity to pimp my non-ToB homebrew samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90342).

Start with two levels of monk for two bonus feats, Evasion and the AC bonus, using your high Wis to get extra ki use and duration for your samurai abilities. 13 levels of samurai gets you several feats, the bulk of your ki abilities and +2 to augmenting.

Gosh, a second attractive looking option, (third if you include Warblade), how do I choose? D:


Minor nitpick, the warblade makes 11 touch attacks, because he uses Raging Mongoose for +2 attacks with each weapon wielded.

Ahh, even better! :o

+55 damage/attack!


1 or two levels of the Oriental Adventures samurai, and then Warblade. Possibly Swordsage or Crusader depending or the flavor, as above people have noted.

You can use the Samurai levels to grab ranks in Iaijutsu Focus. It's a neat little skill that only exists in Oriental Adventures that lets you deal more damage based on a check when you draw your weapon. A bit abusable at low levels, but it'll be fine at the level you're at.

I think I might save Iaijutsu for another build actually, because it's a cool concept, but designed for the purpose of one-hit kills.

quick_comment
2009-03-26, 04:27 PM
Go for Warblade and PrC into Iajitsu Master.

kentma57
2009-03-27, 09:14 PM
Go for Warblade and PrC into Iajitsu Master.

No. Tome of Battle + Iajitsu Master = Wrong!