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AslanCross
2009-03-27, 09:32 PM
I just played my first high-level one-shot last night (Prisoner of the Castle Perilous, 3.5, Lv 18), and the very first thing that got to me was just how difficult it was to roll so many attacks. My character was a Serenity Paladin/Swordsage who fought with two light maces. She would roll 5 attacks each turn but would usually only hit with one or two.

Now I realize I completely forgot my Insightful Strike Swordsage bonus to damage, which would have made my attacks a lot stronger, but that's another story.

In any case, how do you facilitate rolling multiple attacks to speed up turns? I realize that some Powers in 4E also allow rolling lots of attacks, so this question goes out to you as well. How do you make rolling this many attacks actually fun? It felt like I was doing accounting homework instead of actually slaying evil cultists.

Arbitrarity
2009-03-27, 09:38 PM
My DM uses Immediate Interrupts to wreck my attacks, or we'd be rolling Tornado Throws all night. Otherwise.... if we end up using > 30 dice, we average the damage (mostly). Use single hit strikes. Get enough AB to know you only miss on a 1. Figure out what you need to roll, then just check when you roll less than that (i.e. you know a 7 hits? check when you roll a 6, does it hit?)
On the Insightful Strike note, my bard from our defunct 3.5 game had the following descriptor appended to him "It's not a matter of what he rolls, but how many bonuses to attack he remembers."

Matthew
2009-03-27, 09:40 PM
Is this particularly an iterative attack problem, do you think? I know in AD&D I enjoy rolling multiple attack dice, but they are typically all calculated at the same value. I certainly enjoying rolling a load of dice when war gaming, which is typically also calculated on the same numbers [e.g. roll twenty attacks, 4+ hits].

I guess in D20/3e multi coloured dice might help offset things a bit [e.g. green for primary, blue for secondary, etcetera].

AslanCross
2009-03-27, 09:47 PM
It may be a problem with iterative attacks. The lower level attacks don't even seem to count, but I always try to roll them anyway in the hopes of a crit.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-27, 09:49 PM
4E multi-attacks rarely have different attack bonuses, and there are far fewer random bonuses floating around. To be honest, it's never come up - not even with the Good Omen'd Ranger using Blade Cascade while surrounded... and the DM used the non-Eratta'd rules :smalltongue:

One thing I do use to help keep track of things is poker chips. Presumably your first attack is the highest, so put a stack of chips in front of you to represent the difference between your highest and lowest attack modifier (so if your first attack is +10 and your last attack is +2, you'd have 8 chips). Then, remove the appropriate number of chips each time - it's easier than keeping the numbers in your head.

For standard Full Attacks, you really only need to use Red Chips for every +5 and White Chips for random +1's. Remove a Red Chip after every attack until you are out.

RTGoodman
2009-03-27, 10:01 PM
I guess in D20/3e multi coloured dice might help offset things a bit [e.g. green for primary, blue for secondary, etcetera].

I've used this in games before, and I think it's a pretty good system. If you've got enough dice (and who doesn't?) you can even roll a couple of attacks and damage rolls at once.

mikethepoor
2009-03-27, 10:02 PM
I just played my first high-level one-shot last night (Prisoner of the Castle Perilous, 3.5, Lv 18), and the very first thing that got to me was just how difficult it was to roll so many attacks. My character was a Serenity Paladin/Swordsage who fought with two light maces. She would roll 5 attacks each turn but would usually only hit with one or two.

Well, first of all, you're swinging two weapons, which is very hard to coordinate. I'm guessing that you don't have the feats that make Two-Weapon Fighting worth using.

As for making all those attack rolls fun, it's usually not, unless you're able to hit consistently and watch the damage soar. Even then, it tends to slow things down mightily. My best suggestion would be to grab several d20s and roll them in quick succession, or all at once and designate which is which ahead of time.

Saph
2009-03-27, 10:24 PM
Get a bunch of different coloured D20s and designate them. The green one is your main primary, the blue is your off-hand primary, the red is your main secondary, etc. Then roll 'em all at once. Speeds things up - a bit.

Unfortunately, this is a problem that it's very hard to get around in high-level play for both 3.5 and 4e - the numbers increase so much that it's hard not to feel like you're doing accounting homework. :)

About the only solutions I'm aware of are a) be fast at math or b) play at lower levels! (And since nearly all D&D players fall into one group or the other, you'd be surprised how rarely it's an issue.)

- Saph

Curmudgeon
2009-03-28, 04:16 AM
I use multiple color-matching dice sets, and roll everything (hit and damage) together using a big dice cup. So it's only one roll for each turn. I can assemble different numbers of damage dice together for the different attacks I plan on using while others are taking their turns. As soon as my turn comes around, I just shake and pour.

Seatbelt
2009-03-28, 06:14 AM
I like the poker chip idea if your bonuses change a lot (like a gish build with buffs)

BlueWizard
2009-03-28, 06:22 AM
I've been playing high level D&D going back to original D&D, and the battles always take a long time. As a DM running high level games, I usually run more roleplay, solving type stuff, and then the big combat. Otherwise your whole night is just rolling dice.

AslanCross
2009-03-28, 05:17 PM
Well, first of all, you're swinging two weapons, which is very hard to coordinate. I'm guessing that you don't have the feats that make Two-Weapon Fighting worth using.

As for making all those attack rolls fun, it's usually not, unless you're able to hit consistently and watch the damage soar. Even then, it tends to slow things down mightily. My best suggestion would be to grab several d20s and roll them in quick succession, or all at once and designate which is which ahead of time.

She had Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Desert Wind weapons) as a bonus feat, TWF, ITWF, and Lightning Mace. I took Tiger Claw maneuvers in addition to the Desert Wind maneuvers and even had Pouncing Charge. Her Paladin levels were One Winged Angel's Rebalanced paladin, so I chose Charging Smite and also had Divine Cross as a bonus feat (Smite with two weapons only consumes 1 use). In hindsight, the DM was new and seemed to have made the mistake of making the mooks too tough, and I wasn't rolling particularly high.

In any case, thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I do use the different colored dice method. Maybe I'm just not used to rolling all this much.

Os1ris09
2009-03-28, 05:19 PM
LOL I feel your pain. I am playing a lvl 18 TWF Ranger6/Scout4/Dervish8 Right now and I have trouble keeping my attacks coordinated. I usually just roll 2 attacks at the highest bonus first for Primary and Off-Hand first then I go down the line rolling two at a time. The hard part is keeping the misc. Bonus's in check making sure you don't over/under add the numbers. Thats why I keep a calculator to double check my numbers. :smalltongue: My advice is roll two at a time and do the numbers then roll the next series of attacks. After that roll all the dice for DMG and see the numbers soar if you got good hits in. Me since I crit on a 15-20 with scimitars I pretty much crit 3/10 rolls so I love to see those on my lesser attacks :smallbiggrin:

herrhauptmann
2009-03-28, 10:51 PM
My last high level character was originally going to be a dual wielding character and I hit on the idea of using a clear compartmented box to roll my dice. Like what they use in some gaming stores to sell individual dice.

Far left column of boxes would be my attacks themselves with a d20 in each, and a dry-erase marker denoting my attack bonus with that dice. To the right of that would be my damage dice. A box for weapon damage, more boxes for each type of other damage I dealt (holy, flaming, sonic etc). I figured I'd keep one dice separate from the others for use in crits and skill checks.

The disadvantage to this method, it would require a MASSIVE number of dice, especially for a full bab warrior at level 15+ with TWF chain. 8 attacks a round. So 6 d20s, 8 of whatever your weapon is, 8 of your elemental/holy damage. And god forbid you have to switch to a backup weapon for somereason.

Renegade Paladin
2009-03-28, 10:53 PM
I have color-coded dice, with matching d20s and damage dice, and roll all my attacks at once, with the colors denoting which dice go with which attack. It really speeds things up.

Morandir Nailo
2009-03-28, 11:52 PM
I have color-coded dice, with matching d20s and damage dice, and roll all my attacks at once, with the colors denoting which dice go with which attack. It really speeds things up.

This is what I did as well when I played a Dervish a few years ago. It kept things moving smoothly once I got used to rolling 8 or more dice at once and remembering which bonuses went with which dice.

Mor