Those darned Elder Evils

[RavKal]

One of my pals expressed interest in having us play a campaign where he uses a book that none of us have. Later I found it was Elder Evils, and his grand scheme is to have us fight all of them.

So, tips, breakages, anything?

This guy and I always try and break the others campaign, so don't hold back.

It takes place in Forgotten Realms.

[slexlollar89]

Play somthing as a counterpart to extreme evil... or use things that shield/target and do more harm against evil beings and crearures. Also, do not play a divine spellcaster becasue some Elder Evils are immune or resistant to magic. I would say go Tome of Battle and hope for the best... and be epic level.

Good Luck!

[hamishspence]

all of them is going it a bit much- especially since often, even when the Elder Evils lose they caused massive damage to the world.

[BlueWizard]

Exalted Deeds, and the spells, feats, and other within.

[KillianHawkeye]

All of them? Wouldn't they, like, just ignore you and start fighting each other? I can't imagine they would get along.

Also, that would be a great idea for a video game. It would be like Smash Bros except instead of Nintendo characters you'd have the guy made of worms vs the moon who eclipses the sun and raises hordes of undead. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

They're mostly unstatted monstrosities that you cannot fight even 1v1, unless you're at least a deity. Then again, divine ascensions for mortals happen daily in the Realms, so that's not like to be a problem.

But yeah, basically, do what you'd always do if you want to be powerful without infinite loops - be an Incantatrix (if base Wizard) or Dweomerkeeper of Mystra (if base Cleric) or some such and make reality your bitch. Those two happen to be Forgotten Realms-specific too.

[RavKal]

Play somthing as a counterpart to extreme evil... or use things that shield/target and do more harm against evil beings and crearures. Also, do not play a divine spellcaster becasue some Elder Evils are immune or resistant to magic. I would say go Tome of Battle and hope for the best... and be epic level.

Good Luck!

Now when you say go Tome of Battle, what precisely do you mean?

[Voidhawk]

I've got the Elder Evils book myself, and yes, fighting more than one of the things is going to completely wreck the world. I mean total civilisation ending stuff, even if they beat them. Hell, the secondary bad guys are horrible enough. One of the most world-endy types in it has, as seconds A mad elf Ur-Priest researching the Apocalypse From The Sky spell, and an entire ravening army of demons and undead, the likes of which the planes have never seen, led by a horrific intelligent shade on a flying-death-construct-glider-thing.

[chiasaur11]

All of them? Wouldn't they, like, just ignore you and start fighting each other? I can't imagine they would get along.

Also, that would be a great idea for a video game. It would be like Smash Bros except instead of Nintendo characters you'd have the guy made of worms vs the moon who eclipses the sun and raises hordes of undead. :smallwink:

Super Lovecraft Bros Melee?

[streakster]

Personally, I'd go Crusader. Lovely bonuses against evil creatures, able to bypass DR and so on, can take loads of punishment and keep right on ticking, healing, and party-boosting. Sounds tailor-made to fighting off eldritch hordes, if you ask me.

[Atsu333]

alright, another member of the party here, been looking through the book, and it seems the best way to kill them is with lots of touch attacks. I don't think I've seen any touch ACs over 20, and seen as little as a 2 touch AC.

Anyone got any ideas for builds based on touch attacks?

[Eldariel]

alright, another member of the party here, been looking through the book, and it seems the best way to kill them is with lots of touch attacks. I don't think I've seen any touch ACs over 20, and seen as little as a 2 touch AC.

Anyone got any ideas for builds based on touch attacks?

Wizard/Incantatrix. Apply a ton of Metamagic to e.g. Orb of Force (or any Orb; no spell resistance, no save is good) and go to town while having all your buffs on thus being always teleported away before someone would hit you, being immune to basically all spells and so on.

Wizard/Incantatrix or Cleric/Dweomerkeeper is the best combo for a Faerun-based anything. Cleric is the best melee character and Wizard is the best caster (although the line blurs when both can cast pretty much anything whenever; Dweomerkeeper gains free Wishes a bit more easily though, but Wizard is much better for the less-abusive-but-still-nutty metamagicked attacks).

[KeresM]

You go evil, ally with the elders, and pray to be eaten first.

[WaterTengu]

You go evil, ally with the elders, and pray to be eaten first.

so true. But seriously, i have beaten one of them. The moon. (I don;t have the book so i forget the name.) then enitre campaign literally spanned our characters lives (70 years) we were level 35 by the end of it and had killed Boccob god of Magic in the process. My first character actually died during the fight with Boccob. But yeah, they're insane. but it was one of the most fun campaigns I have ever been in.

[chiasaur11]

You go evil, ally with the elders, and pray to be eaten first.

No offense, but I like Eladrial's plan better.

[Starscream]

I don't own this book, I've only borrowed it from the library once. But from what I recall, any given Elder Evil could probably give Cthulu a run for his money, and send Galactus screaming for his mum. Heck, even Squirrel Girl might chip a nail.

As for fighting all of them, the only advice I can give is that you should optimize the heck out of your character. It won't help, but maybe the souls of munchkin PCs don't taste as good.

Perhaps convince your DM that an epic level Gestalt campaign is the best way to go, and take ToB classes on one side and all the most broken goodies from Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Champion on the other.

Incidentally, anyone else think the Snarl would make a great addition to the Elder Evils? I should mention that on the Homebrew board.

[Fan]

alright, another member of the party here, been looking through the book, and it seems the best way to kill them is with lots of touch attacks. I don't think I've seen any touch ACs over 20, and seen as little as a 2 touch AC.

Anyone got any ideas for builds based on touch attacks?

Warblade 2/Wizard 5/ Incantrix 5/ Abjurant Champ 5/ Spell sword 3.
Use your blade channeling, and leap attack/power attack with sapphire nightmare blade, and you get a touch attack every time, and if you get a ring of lions charge you can get a full attack every time with it. Plus having full caster level -2, and full BAB.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Perhaps convince your DM that an epic level Gestalt campaign is the best way to go, and take ToB classes on one side and all the most broken goodies from Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Champion on the other.

Geshalt is good. Lets you be both a Wizard/Incantrix/Archmage AND a Warblade. Fun stuff :smallsmile:


Incidentally, anyone else think the Snarl would make a great addition to the Elder Evils? I should mention that on the Homebrew board.

Yes.

BACK to the OT...

Here are some ideas I recomend, depending on what you want to be:

Meatshield: Warblade/Bard with SOWR and Dragonfire Inspiration, plus Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shocktrooper Assualt, the works. UMD wands of wraithstrike. Because you know what hurts more than a warblade Power Attacking for half his base attack bonus? A warblade Power Attacking for his full BAB, auto hitting, and doing +5d6 sonic damage.

Skill Monkey: Factotum/Swordsage. Because, y'know, all skill monkey builds need trapfinding, and all non-caster-builds-that-will-be-fighting-the-Elder-Evils need ToB. Plus for the fact that Lots of Good Standard Actions + More Standard Actions = Profit.

Healer: Cleric with Initiate of Mystra. While you may be inneffective against some of the EEs, you are, of course, CoDzilla. In an antimagic field.

God-Damned Batman: Look up a little bit to see Eladrial's Post.

[WaterTengu]

all non-caster-builds-that-will-be-fighting-the-Elder-Evils need ToB.
i disagree, i played a rogue that was optimized for assassination and spy work. and I did fine, until I exploded because my parents died.

[Jayngfet]

I say get creative.

Lay bags of holding about five feet over the ground as a trap. Directly below it on the floor is a portable hole. You just decimated that things leg and stopped it from movine.

[chiasaur11]

I don't own this book, I've only borrowed it from the library once. But from what I recall, any given Elder Evil could probably give Cthulu a run for his money, and send Galactus screaming for his mum. Heck, even Squirrel Girl might chip a nail.

As for fighting all of them, the only advice I can give is that you should optimize the heck out of your character. It won't help, but maybe the souls of munchkin PCs don't taste as good.

Perhaps convince your DM that an epic level Gestalt campaign is the best way to go, and take ToB classes on one side and all the most broken goodies from Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Champion on the other.

Incidentally, anyone else think the Snarl would make a great addition to the Elder Evils? I should mention that on the Homebrew board.


Pun-Pun, then.

And may Non-Evil-Deity-of-choice have mercy on our soon to be devoured souls.

[afroakuma]

I say get creative.

Lay bags of holding about five feet over the ground as a trap. Directly below it on the floor is a portable hole. You just decimated that things leg and stopped it from movine.

Pandorym, Ragnorra, Sertrous and the Leviathan don't have legs.

Now, the real question is, are all nine of their signs active at once, even if the Evil itself is not?

Because that will throw a wrench into quite a few things. For one, conjurations and divine magic will be impeded.

[Fan]

I say go with the Hulking Hurler, it can PICK UP a elder evil, and throw it at another elder evil. Killing them both in the process.:smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

Seeing as how most of them can't actually die...

and if you do that to Pandorym, you lose the game.

[Fan]

Seeing as how most of them can't actually die...

and if you do that to Pandorym, you lose the game.

Well, then theres no point in fighting them. As they just keep coming back together everytime you annhilate their matter with anti ossimum.

[Waspinator]

You go evil, ally with the elders, and pray to be eaten first.

"You'll still die. But faster."

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=200

[chiasaur11]

Seeing as how most of them can't actually die...

and if you do that to Pandorym, you lose the game.

Nah, XKCD settled that last problem.

[Jayngfet]

Pandorym, Ragnorra, Sertrous and the Leviathan don't have legs.

Now, the real question is, are all nine of their signs active at once, even if the Evil itself is not?

Because that will throw a wrench into quite a few things. For one, conjurations and divine magic will be impeded.

Hey, that at least inconvinces the worm that walks and whatever mooks or other huge enemies lying around.

[afroakuma]

Well, then theres no point in fighting them. As they just keep coming back together everytime you annhilate their matter with anti ossimum.

Well, see Pandorym is annihilation of matter. In a breakable glass box. So a bit of finesse and not throwing things around is called for.


Hey, that at least inconvinces the worm that walks and whatever mooks or other huge enemies lying around.

We'd have to rename it. The Worm That Occasionally Stumbles?

Zargon and the Hulks would be inconvenienced by it, though.

[Alleine]

You can actually ignore Pandorym for the most part. That is, if you don't care about deities and Pandorym is actually able to find a way back where it came from. If not then you've got to face it as well.

[bobspldbckwrds]

well, then it's obvious. use wish/miracle/cheese to systematically seal off it's powers one by one. then when it is almost dead, send it to a demiplane where it's powers are blocked.

and you have defeated the first elder evil (which, by the way, none can go up against any of the Great Old Ones, in my opinion.)

and this does seem like the type of campaign where you might need to ask the gods for a little bit of help.

[afroakuma]

They're immune to a lot of things, though. And if Pandorym's active, you can't get godly aid.

It's definitely doable, but you need to keep on top of things, be adaptable and accept that standard tactics may be futile against some of them.

[Starscream]

I'd worry about that undead moon thing first. If I recall, as that thing gets closer and closer to the world you are looking at a genuine Dawn of the Dead style apocalypse, even if he never makes it all the way.

[slexlollar89]

Hey sorry about not answering your question sooner! Basically, a lot of regular melee ikr the fighter or sneak attack is rendered moot by high resistances like DR or racial traits like undead types and stuff. Tome of battle is superior regular melee fighting, especially with Stone Dragon which allows you to bypass DR a lot. Plus, Tome of Battle isn't divine or Arcane based, and several Elder Evils hinder the abilities of different casters. I wouldn't recomend using a caster that uses abilities on the enemy to be effective (like an illusionist for example) because of said resistances... buffers and helper characters work better as a caster, but even then you can still be disabled by elder evil powers... they really suck.

You might consider going Crusader, as you can heal a lot of damage you may take... or swordsage for sheer versatility out of combat (which helps in the plot surrounding the elder evil's appearance). Anyways, I hope this helps!

[Alleine]

Yeah, Atropus is actually the worst. ECL 25, all the rest are ECL 21 or below I think. I'm curious how Atropus and the Worm that Walks would interact though, what with Atropus being undead-centered and the Worm also touching on that.

Although Atropus is the worst, about 5 of the other elder evils would probably gang up on it because they want to rule the world, and its really hard to rule something that no longer exists. Then they'd all start fighting each other to see who actually gets to rule.

[Draken]

Atropus and Ragnora would negate each other's signs if they were both active at once.

The signs of Sertrous and the Worm that Walks would overlap. You would drown in swarms before ever seeing the elder evil.

----

The main problem would be, in fact, if all of them become active at roughtly the same time. Because once the signs become overwhelming, wich is, basically, when you get to fight the Elder Evil, it is a run against the clock. And if you have to run against two timers... Well, you ar emost likely to lose.

That said, Zargon is the least issue. Ragnora can be left by herself for a time. Stopping Pandorym is a matter of stopping Obligatum IV (then you have one month before they send Obligatum V). Sertrous you could actually just leave be. He is not much of a problem, you could even just send him to the abyss and wash your hands. Hulks should be stopped more because of the sign than because of the hulks themselves (CR 16 each). If you can diplomance two or three strong monsters (Gold Dragons are first option as usual). They are cake.

The main problems are The Worm, because freeing him starts a reaction that will end the multiverse. Atropus, because he will kill everyone if he gets close enough, and Leviathan, who will destroy the world as well. To make matters worse, you need to go to very specific places to stop the three. A lost island, an undersea temple and a moon.

I think if your DM gets all of them going at once... He will have more problems keeping the events running around the clock than you will have to kill the things.

[ChaosDefender24]

Eldariel, I'm fairly sure that there's stats for each of the Elder Evils at the end of each chapter (I don't have the book), and each of them are in the CR 20-24 range (except for the CR 16 lightweights)



and if you do that to Pandorym, you lose the game.

...

[Eeezee]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, no one ever said that he'd be facing all of the elder evils at the same time, only that he'd face all of them.

[FoE]

I don't know about fighting all of them. That kind of defeats the point of the Elder Evil concept, which is supposed to be a big threat to cap off your campaing. Unleashing them all at roughly the same time ... they all become just another monster.

TV Tropes says it best:


If Eldritch Abominations were on every street corner, people's conceptions of natural law would stretch to accommodate them. A lone mile-high soul-devouring monstrosity would be cause for worldwide pandemonium. If there were ten thousand such, descending from the cold stars on umbral wings every new moon to ravage the Earth, then that would just be a fact of life. People might not like the oversized locusts, but they would not be driven to madness at the sight of them.

[Ganurath]

Summary:Atropus: Seeks to destroy all life, negative energy style.
Pandorym: Wants to kill the gods.
Father Llymic: Far Realms with a heavy theme of cold and insectovirus. His agenda is as readable as Cthulhu's.
Ragnorra: Wants to give every living thing a mutating overdose of Positive Energy. Try to turn her followers against those of Atropus.
Serthos: Wants to dethrone the followers of the gods. His followers believe the gods are dead, so Pandorym's agenda may tick them off. On the other hand, they may persuade the Kolyrut Obligatum VII that his mission no longer serves a purpose. During the final battle in the Serthos area of the campaign, I suggest you have a bead of summoning handy just so that you can say "You claim the gods are dead. Allow me to present evidence to the contrary. [Character's deity], this humble disciple seeks your presence!"
Kyuss: You're going to the Tomb of Horrors! One of the key pieces to unleash Kyuss is the Sphere of Annihilation. Entropomancer suddenly becomes more viable. Can't remember his agenda, but I know anyone who wants their victims to survive will be at odds with him.
Ooze Dude: Wants to rule the world. Asmodeus scares the pants off of him, what with the history of them fighting one another.
Leviathan: Wants to flood the world. This is bad for chilly Father Llymic and yuan-ti supported Serthos. It has lots of demonic and demon-worshipping agents, so Asmodeus once again becomes an ally.
Five Golems: When awoken, they'll go kill everything to make way for a colonial fleet from another world.

Tactical Conclusion:Serthos and Atropus are the ones that I know to have legions, armies. Convince the yuan-ti serving Serthos that those armies will kill potential believers, and bring it to their attention that Atropus is a dead god attempting to avenge its death. A quick fix to the Five Golems is to use the Sphere of Annihilation to kill the male, since that would rob the four females of their (reproductive) purpose. You need to use it quick, though, since Kyuss's Dragon (nonliteral) will seek it relentlessly. Offer it to Asmodeus as a most useful tool. Combined with thwarting multiple demonic forces, such as Leviathan's agents and Atropus's legions, and thus aiding his kind in the Blood War, he may be persuaded to take out Ooze Dude for good. Third time's a charm, and all. Like the legions, however, you'll be thwarting Leviathan's forces indirectly by forcing them to combat Father Llymic's forces. Oh, and I'm sure Serthos's higher levels agents would have an interestingly violent philosophical discussion with their counterparts that are the entirety of Pandorym's agents. Serthos's legions won't be at a loss, however, as you've cut a deal to lead them against the demonic agents of the "god" of undeath fighting for Atropus.

Also, when you eventually betray your allies serving the god-killer Serthos, be sure your party's divine caster has a bead of summoning. Rule of Cool.

[Kris Strife]

1. Make Artificerx//Whateverx, use a drill as a weapon and max ranks in proffession: Mining
2. Have someone else play a Monk4/WhateverX//Paladin5/Greyguard5/Whateverx
3. Craft Lagann, a Core Drill and Burning Gundam
4. Pilot Lagann, have the Greymonkadin pilot Burning Gundam
5. Have them combine
6. ???
7. Profit

[Custos Sophiae]

If all the Elder Evils are going to turn up at once, or near enough, there should be some reason why, but those aren't in short supply.

E.g, in its climactic paroxysms, Leviathan shatters mountain ranges, even if defeated. Think about what that does to the world. Entire nations flee the wreckage of their old homes, looking in vain for somewhere to settle down and rebuild, and not just human nations. Caves will not remain intact when the mountains crumble, so the entire Drow race will be looking for a new home, along with all the mind-flayers, beholders, aboleths and the like. The Tarrasque probably wakes up too.

On top of this, there are the cultists. With law and order in total collapse, those who survive seize the moment to bring about their brand of apocalypse, while every last villain, from petty thugs to epic necromancers, adds their contribution to the chaos. Desperate kings may swear fealty to Asmodeus for protection even as others turn to Demogorgon, and the armies of the Abyss and of Hell ravage the world, yet that is not the worst of it.

In the last moments before it was returned to slumber, Leviathan cracked the prison of every last earth-bound elder evil, and all their signs leap instantly to strong. After all, none of those prison are built strongly enough to resist tectonic forces of that magnitude. That's why all those Elder Evils been unleashed at once, giving the heroes just a month to tour the world and stop all the doomsday clocks. Unfortunately, about a week into the countdown, some of the cultists succeed in summoning down Atropos and Ragnora.

The heroes won't get much chance to sleep that month, but if they pull it off, they might get offered demi-godhood, or possibly just a minor artifact, depending how grateful the gods feel.

Of course, that's just one option.

[Waspinator]

1. Make Artificerx//Whateverx, use a drill as a weapon and max ranks in proffession: Mining
2. Have someone else play a Monk4/WhateverX//Paladin5/Greyguard5/Whateverx
3. Craft Lagann, a Core Drill and Burning Gundam
4. Pilot Lagann, have the Greymonkadin pilot Burning Gundam
5. Have them combine
6. ???
7. Profit

Or planeshift to Highpoint (the setting of Dragonmech) and steal some city-mechs.

[Kris Strife]

Or planeshift to Highpoint (the setting of Dragonmech) and steal some city-mechs.

I think Burning Lagann > City Mech.

[mostlyharmful]

It's at times like these that the Feist way out seems pretty rational to me....

'Ok everyone the sky is falling in, the sea is on fire, the stars are screaming and dripping blood and I don't even want to talk about the moon, line up infrount of the big portals and only take what you can carry.... brand new world here we come....':smallamused:

[Xuincherguixe]

so true. But seriously, i have beaten one of them. The moon. (I don;t have the book so i forget the name.) then enitre campaign literally spanned our characters lives (70 years) we were level 35 by the end of it and had killed Boccob god of Magic in the process. My first character actually died during the fight with Boccob. But yeah, they're insane. but it was one of the most fun campaigns I have ever been in.

Good going Piccolo.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, I'm fairly sure that there's stats for each of the Elder Evils at the end of each chapter (I don't have the book), and each of them are in the CR 20-24 range (except for the CR 16 lightweights)

Aspects, Shards, etc. The real deal? Father Llymic, Hulk of Zoretha, Ragnorra, The Worm That Walks & Zargon have the stats, but the remaining ones haven't statted out the real deal.

[Samb]

Sounds like a lot of fun, are you fighting all at the same time or one after another?

I'd say go with a saint template, aasimon, solor, asura or some other upper planes race found in the BoED. The level adjustments will count towards IL (well half of it will) so you could go crusader.
Upper plane races under the service of the gods (direct dialodge with the gods will help in times like this). You could go cheese with nfinite loops and whatnot but if back to back elder evils isn't a good enough reason to use über races then I don't know what is. Plus they are fun to play.

[Draken]

So. The are coming one after the other. This doesn't really reduce the problem.

Matter of fact. By the time the second one reaches overwhelming sign, saving the world might become pointless.

So let's go by order of difficulty, considering the signs. I would guess this is the order your DM would use (if he goes by the order of the book, it starts incredibly difficult and ends incredibly easy).

----

Zargon the returner. A smelly CR 16, you have to burn his 342 hit points (literally, the bastart has regeneration 50, but fire and acid deal normal damage). The horn is indestructible, but there are easy ways to prevent Zargon from regenerating back.

I suggets a vat of acid.

----

Llymic comes next. He is a CR 18. Immunity to COld helps here, as do immunity to critical hits, I would say. Don't bother with protection against negative levels, it doesn't help against Soul Chill. Soul chill is the worst part of the fight, and the only protection against it is not taking any of these is high AC.

Llymic's vulnerability to light is moot, because the overwhelming sign causes even magical light to stop working completely.

I wouldn't normally suggest this, but opening a gate beneath Llymic is a viable option. It serves two purposes. One, it prevents the sign from further screwing the material world. Depending on where you send him, it can become an easy fight (Pandemonium in the Greyhawk campaign setting, I am not sure of a viable choice in FR.

Discord and Woe can be problematic. It is not a mind effect, matter of fact, it has no descriptors at all. Anything can be affected by it. Pump out your will saves.

----

I presume the Hulks of Zoretha would come next. We have here a fight against ten to twenty-two monsters (ten I presume. No DM wants to control 22 things, I am not even sure 22 huge monsters plus 4-5 medium or large PCs fit in the cave). Five are strong (the hulks) and the rest are weaker ones (elementals and a displacer beast pack leader). It is only lucky that the hulks are color coded. Killing the male first is problematic. Because he is fast and will be protected by the four others.

I would suggest bringing some help. But that will easily clutter the cave.

No suggestions here, bring your best ubercharger and try to drop one female at a time with some focused fire. Note that the reflex saves of the females sucks. The fortitude saves, however, don't. The opposite is true for the male.

----

Ragnorra comes next. You can be quick and she can be somewhat easy, or you can somehow slack and she can have 1000 hit points. Either way, skincasting will make your lives miserable if she finds out about you and you are within one thousand miles of her.

Not much to be said. Ragnorra is a matter of having good reflex and fortitude saves and burning her hit points down. You are lucky that her sign actually doesn't do so much to make the fight difficult (unlike llymic). It does make the world crappier.

----

I presume next in line is the leviathan. A mindless, gigantic beast who, once awake, ends the world because it is it's nature. There is a ray trying to stir it's slumber so it floods the world. Unfortunatelly, the MORON pokes it a bit too much. Not many suggestion here. By now you should all be level 20 at least, so the Aspects are not very problematic, I guess, only very resilient. Put him back to sleep and let's move on to the next one in line...

----

Sertrous! And his serpent Vanguard. The big obyrith snake. This one is probably the meanest for your average FR campaign. Because of all the religious stuff.

Treat him as you would any other demon of the obyrith kind. Pump out your will save for the form of madness. Your fortitude save for the breath weapon (immunity to poison does not cut it). And apply freedom of movement. With those in place. He is just a big snake who is immune to divine spells, which, let's face it. If you are using to attack elder evils, you are already doing it wrong.

----

Worm that Walks is the next. He is CR 20, while Sertrous is 22. Why is he next? Because Sertrous is easy. Worm is not. Worm is a spellcaster. And your DM could exchange his spell list for some more... Worthy spells.

Edwin is far less powerful than Seghulerak. If only because he is a True Necromancer. Do not let his CR trick you. Toolstoff is not a danger and if you are readying yourself to make saves against the elder evils, saving against his spells is easy.

Worm is actually the least issue, however. And saving the world in this case is almost invariably a Deus Ex Machina. Unless you have a rod of cancelation handy.

----

Pandorym and Atropus come in no specific order. Both will screw you badly and be incredibly hard. Pump your saves, learn to breath in space. Enjoy your doom.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Food for thought for those offering advice, there has been no word if the DM is using the book minions for the Elder Evils or not.


That said...

Tannaliel =/> most mechs. The firepower that thing can bring to bear is terrifying. Plus it's a moving sky scraper.

[Waspinator]

The problem with Tannanliel is that it can't really be stolen for a purpose like this. You have to convince Tannan to do whatever it is you want it to do or it's not going to work due to how that magical bond operates. A mechanical city-mech, however, could at least theoretically be hijacked and operated with a different crew.

And even if you could find a different person to power Tannanliel, getting rid of Tannan would be hard. He's a pretty strong wizard with a giant magical robot tree backing him up.

[RavKal]

Food for thought for those offering advice, there has been no word if the DM is using the book minions for the Elder Evils or not.

I have no clue. What I do know is that if we face all of them at once more or less, I'm going to want to turn the tables, make them concerned with each other and so hopefully cause them to battle amongst themselves.

We'll probably have a couple people pull superchargers, and if worst comes to worst, I'll actually put Pun-Pun on a character sheet, since our DM does not know what pun-pun is and will thus be royally screwed.

[afroakuma]

I have no clue. What I do know is that if we face all of them at once more or less, I'm going to want to turn the tables, make them concerned with each other and so hopefully cause them to battle amongst themselves.

If your DM's fairly good, this won't be possible, because half of them just plain don't care what's going on around them, a few are so arrogant as to assume nothing can challenge them and the remainder have more pressing concerns than one another. Namely, Elder Evilling you.


We'll probably have a couple people pull superchargers, and if worst comes to worst, I'll actually put Pun-Pun on a character sheet, since our DM does not know what pun-pun is and will thus be royally screwed.

Oh come on, don't. There's nothing worse than pulling out the ubercheese.

[RebelRogue]

Speaking of Elder Evils, am I the only one that remember the original B4 module in which Zargon and Cynidicea originated in (the map is even identical to one of the tiers of the original module)? It certainly put a smile on my face.

So I was wondering if any of the other Elder Evils has similar origins in older material?

[Tensu]

Am I the only one who thinks the title to this thread sounds like a mid-90's sitcom?

"Yoggy, you have to help me!"

"What is it, Cthulhu?"

"I promised two nihilistic heretics from different planes I'd destroy their plane of existence on the same night!"

"Chtulhu!" *wags tentacle disapprovingly while smirking*

[Waspinator]

Am I the only one who thinks the title to this thread sounds like a mid-90's sitcom?

"Yoggy, you have to help me!"

"What is it, Cthulhu?"

"I promised two nihilistic heretics from different planes I'd destroy their plane of existence on the same night!"

"Chtulhu!" *wags tentacle disapprovingly while smirking*

See "Zork and Pals".

[Atsu333]

alright, I've got an Idea. How about an unarmed swordsage, who uses finesse and shadow blade(so his fists use dex on both attack and damage, eliminating strength as a needed score)?

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether to use VoP(I know, it's a trap, but this is to be used against evil, and its not like I will have any armor to use with a large enough max dex bonus) or to try magic items. Your thoughts?

[afroakuma]

Generally speaking, getting within smacking range of some of the more powerful Elder Evils is a terrible, terrible idea.

[Atsu333]

Generally speaking, getting within smacking range of some of the more powerful Elder Evils is a terrible, terrible idea.

Well, I was thinking of that, which is sort of why I wanted to take VoP, it gives resistances and AC, and then maybe on top of that a saint template, just to boost it even more.

And there's a lvl 1 manuver that will make them prone. from there, they're at my mercy. It uses a touch attack, and no touch AC in that book is over 20.

[WaterTengu]

Good going Piccolo.

huh? I am not sure I understand.

[chiasaur11]

Piccolo blew up the moon once on DBZ.

Ah, misc. internet trivia, is there nothing you can't make me seem not unknowledgeable about?

[Fan]

Well, I was thinking of that, which is sort of why I wanted to take VoP, it gives resistances and AC, and then maybe on top of that a saint template, just to boost it even more.

And there's a lvl 1 manuver that will make them prone. from there, they're at my mercy. It uses a touch attack, and no touch AC in that book is over 20.

Don't go VOP, go vow of chastity, and Vow of abstienence. Those fill the reqs for Saint,l and do almost nothing to your combat.
VOP just eats you alive at this level.

[afroakuma]

And there's a lvl 1 manuver that will make them prone. from there, they're at my mercy. It uses a touch attack, and no touch AC in that book is over 20.

Uh... no, no they're not. Rendering a psionic shard "prone" will do nothing other than change its spatial orientation. It's still going to wreak hell on your face.

Similarly, the True Mother can't be rendered prone because there's nothing to knock over - she's the ceiling.

The Hulks are five creatures. Knock one over, and another one will be right behind you looking to take advantage of your silliness.

Lastly, a cursory glance isn't showing me this maneuver. Which one is it?

[Lupy]

Step 1: Dig up the old Raistlin Char sheet.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: At the last second, when you beat all the elder evils, kill the party, take over the world, and turn it into a lifeless gray wasteland.

:smallbiggrin:

Or ya know, just put this in for all of your saves:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/2/4/d245777abca64ece2d5d7ca0d19fddb6.png

[KillianHawkeye]

Piccolo blew up the moon once on DBZ.

Ah, misc. internet trivia, is there nothing you can't make me seem not unknowledgeable about?

So did Master Roshi. So what? Not to mention all the people who destroyed entire planets on a regular basis.

When you defeat Atropus, you don't actually destroy his moon. It just goes away and bothers someone else's planet.

[Atsu333]

Uh... no, no they're not. Rendering a psionic shard "prone" will do nothing other than change its spatial orientation. It's still going to wreak hell on your face.

Similarly, the True Mother can't be rendered prone because there's nothing to knock over - she's the ceiling.

The Hulks are five creatures. Knock one over, and another one will be right behind you looking to take advantage of your silliness.

Lastly, a cursory glance isn't showing me this maneuver. Which one is it?

hmm... I guess you're right. the manuver is Mighty Throw, of the setting sun discipline. but as for the other things, I should have some other manuvers for that, I haven't bothered to look through yet though.

[ZeroNumerous]

It's very easy to get rid of some the Signs.

Use Iron Heart Surge. :smalltongue:

[RavKal]

So I'm thinking currently that a sorcerer/incantatrix with lotsa orbs would be good, since they're all touch.

The question is: what should the rest of the party be? Atsu keeps trying to make a melee-er but it seems he keeps getting countered, much to my mild amusement.

And I believe someone just spoiled Dragonlance for me.

[afroakuma]

So I'm thinking currently that a sorcerer/incantatrix with lotsa orbs would be good, since they're all touch.

They're also all energy, which most Elder Evils have several resistances to. You can of course use your incantatrix cheese to power up your damage to the point where resistance is irrelevant, but your DM can plot juicy revenge, so
I wouldn't do it. It's also largely no fun.


And I believe someone just spoiled Dragonlance for me.

Not necessarily.

[chiasaur11]

It's very easy to get rid of some the Signs.

Use Iron Heart Surge. :smalltongue:

Wouldn't that deal with ALL the signs?

[Ganurath]

Wouldn't that deal with ALL the signs?No, a Candle of Invocation and a LE alignment would do that. If you want easy without cheezy, though, here's some fun stuff:

Be Lawful Neutral. Make a Knowledge (religion) check. Say Pazuzu's name three times. Wish for a Candle of Invocation, becoming Lawful Evil. Wish for the Sphere of Annihilation be relocated to the core of Atropus. Edwin is now neutralized, two birds killed with one stone. Have one of the other members of your party wish for a (Greater?) Planar Binding after making the Knowledge check neccesary to learn the name of Pandorym's Kolyarut subordinate. Use the time for the binding (Remember Magic Circle against Law!) to convince it that if Sertrous and his followers succeed, the gods will be killed before Pandrorym has the chance and the contract will never be fulfilled. You'll want the party Bard to handle that, as (s)he'll be the source of healing in a world robbed of divine magic. In exchange for getting the Inevitable's help, and possibly those of Pandorym's other followers, you'll help unleash Pandorym. After those nuts are clear, Party Member #3 uses their wish to get it so that, when Pandorym is free, it'll be sent to wherever Tharizdun is imprisoned. He'll go about killing a god... And be trapped again. The Epic Ur Priest will be ticked off, but just give her 5K in diamond dust and have the Party Bard give her some Diplomancer Grievence Counselling. Party Members #4... Will try to use the wish to make it so that the manta ray guy trying to awaken Leviathan can only breathe air. Not sure how to word that one. Leviathan's awakening pretty much revolves around the idiot, so taking him out subverts yet another Elder Evil.

Congratulations, you've just bypassed the toughest half of the Elder Evils while only actually fighting one of them (with Epic support!) and you haven't even taken levels in Alienist. Get ten levels in the PrC while venerable, then go face Father Llymic on your fatal birthday. "Let's go home, Father."

[afroakuma]

I thought you said without cheesy?

Invoking Pazuzu is cheese.

Not to mention, based on Atropus' plotline, Pazuzu will not get involved, seeing as how he will be otherwise occupied at the time.

[Ganurath]

I thought you said without cheesy?

Invoking Pazuzu is cheese.

Not to mention, based on Atropus' plotline, Pazuzu will not get involved, seeing as how he will be otherwise occupied at the time.1. I should clarify. Not infinite cheese. You may as well say "no druids."

2. That's why your first wish is going to involve incapacitating Atropus.

[afroakuma]

1. I should clarify. Not infinite cheese. You may as well say "no druids."

2. That's why your first wish is going to involve incapacitating Atropus.

Atropus himself is irrelevant. The timeline on another plane indicates that an Abyssal war of unseen proportions will begin, meaning Pazuzu won't want to bother with some foolish undead moon.

[Ganurath]

Atropus himself is irrelevant. The timeline on another plane indicates that an Abyssal war of unseen proportions will begin, meaning Pazuzu won't want to bother with some foolish undead moon.I see. I don't have the book in front of me, so I didn't have that factor to consider. May I ask just what it is that triggers the demonic infighting?

[Kris Strife]

I see. I don't have the book in front of me, so I didn't have that factor to consider. May I ask just what it is that triggers the demonic infighting?

They need a trigger? :p

Actually, Orcus takes the opportunity to attack Demogorgon with Gorguth in command of his armies. The abyss falls into total infighting and the nine hells seize the opportunity to succesfully invade. Gorguth leaves and allies with Atropus.

And can someone tell me exactly what iron heart surge does?

[Ganurath]

They need a trigger? :p

Actually, Orcus takes the opportunity to attack Demogorgon with Gorguth in command of his armies. The abyss falls into total infighting and the nine hells seize the opportunity to succesfully invade. Gorguth leaves and allies with AtropusWait... If the Abyss is in that much discord, then

1. Demogorgon is possibly looking for an excuse to withdraw his help in waking Leviathan without losing his ally. Perhaps you can arrange it so that if you take out Leviathan, you can get Demogorgan's minion reassigned to aid you against Atropus.

2. If Zargon can be planeshifted, sending him to the Nine Hells could get some support from the Abyss. Ideally, the First Layer.

3. As I recall, Orcus claims to be a god of undeath. If this is communicated to the followers of Sertrous early on...

[Kris Strife]

Gorgoth is Orcus' minion, sorry.

And I still vote for an artificer creating Lagann, Spiral Power and Burning Gundam to solve the problem.

[Alleine]

I could have sworn Pazuzu was the only Abyssal who really didn't meddle with others or get meddled with. Doesn't he only have one enemy? And he owns the skies, IIRC, which everyone else is willing to let him have because they just don't care about it.

[Waspinator]

Honestly, your best bet would probably be to planeshift around a bit to tell all of the various outer planes entities that have an interest in the material plane that these things exist and then go hide in a demiplane while everything goes to hell. Even most of the evil gods and whatnot would want to stop most of the elder evils since they wouldn't want anyone else conquering or destroying the world.

[Ganurath]

Gorgoth is Orcus' minion, sorry.

And I still vote for an artificer creating Lagann, Spiral Power and Burning Gundam to solve the problem.I was referring to the guy listed under Leviathan's entry with the purple suit. I don't remember his name, but I know Demogorgan sent him to help the manta because he has aquatic followers and an ally tied to the oceans.

While we're recruiting extraplanar allies, let's toss in:

Yeenoghu: All his worshippers are gnolls, who view him as a deity. For the most part, each of the Elder Evils either threatens him directly or his power base. If you can identify key targets for him, I'm sure he has some Retrievers waiting for something to do. How many would it take to kill Edwin Tolstoff?

Yazuzu: As stated, he'd be sitting out of the conflict. You have X wishes, where X is the number of people in your party. See if you can get one for the Raven Familiar!

Salamander Lords / Djinns: May be able to get indirect support against Leviathan, what with the manta's plan being to flood the world. With water. Which is bad for fire.

Githyanki Lich Queen: Ragnorra's followers are screwing around on her territory, and threats to life on the Material Plane are threats to her Red Dragon assets allies. I imagine one of the latter could easily dispatch the Returner.

Gruumsh: If the world is destroyed, the orcs will never reclaim the land that is rightfully theirs. Eyes of Gruumsh, get a crusade together! Gorgoth is pillaging the countryside; the orcs will be able to keep the spoils if his army is defeated!

Liches: The world coming to an end probably throws a monkey wrench in a lot of millenia-long plans. As undead with cold immunity, they're especially good against Father Llymic.

[Kris Strife]

Why not get Io involved? If everything is destroyed, the perfect draconic being will never be born.

Also, still waiting for the iron heart surge definition.

[FatR]

Elder Evils are not particularly impressive stat-wise. Compared to, say, Kyuss from Age of Worms AP, even to his fully weakened version, they are rather weak (non-weakened version can probably defeat every creature in this book even if they all attack him at the same time). A 20+ level party that actually survived to this level fighting level-appropriate stuff should kick their asses without even resorting to Incantatrixes, Cheaters of Mystra and truly uber chargers. The main problem is their signs, as most of them wreck the world bigtime. So, the problem is to find and defeat evils before their signs reach overwhelming level.

[RavKal]

Pazuzu won't work, the DM and most of the group (sadly) haven't heard of him.

[afroakuma]

Firstly, planar travel will be off the table thanks to Pandorym.


Wait... If the Abyss is in that much discord, then

1. Demogorgon is possibly looking for an excuse to withdraw his help in waking Leviathan without losing his ally. Perhaps you can arrange it so that if you take out Leviathan, you can get Demogorgan's minion reassigned to aid you against Atropus.

He's not going personally, and he's not that organized. Not to mention he doesn't give a damn about Atropus.


2. If Zargon can be planeshifted, sending him to the Nine Hells could get some support from the Abyss. Ideally, the First Layer.

Pandorym's sign will make that difficult, and eventually impossible. Also, the Abyss is chaotic evil and has the knowledge to be aware that you're out of ancient Hell-toppling goo monsters, so they'll have no further need of your services.


3. As I recall, Orcus claims to be a god of undeath. If this is communicated to the followers of Sertrous early on...

He does not. He's a demon prince, not a deity (usually... this one's a bit flexible) but the followers of Sertrous are probably prioritizing against definite deities. Of the good variety.


I could have sworn Pazuzu was the only Abyssal who really didn't meddle with others or get meddled with

True, but irrelevant, because Atropus' timeline involves the Blood War actually making it into the Abyss for the first time. Pazuzu will have to get involved solely to protect his domains.


Honestly, your best bet would probably be to planeshift around a bit to tell all of the various outer planes entities that have an interest in the material plane that these things exist and then go hide in a demiplane while everything goes to hell.

They can't confirm that fact, as Elder Evils are immune to divine detection. You also won't be able to later on thanks to Pandorym's sign.


Why not get Io involved? If everything is destroyed, the perfect draconic being will never be born.

Io's got jurisdiction over many draconic worlds. Yours just doesn't matter enough.


Also, still waiting for the iron heart surge definition.

It's this stupid flawed interpretation of a maneuver from Tome of Battle that lets you shrug off some spells and status conditions. Because of its generic wording, people deliberately misinterpret it to say it can cancel antimagic fields, time stop and any other magical thing that would affect your character. Under this "interpretation," Iron Heart Surge would see the signs as magical effects which your character is under the effect of, and throw them off - i.e. cancel them all.

[Samb]

Githyanki Lich Queen: Ragnorra's followers are screwing around on her territory, and threats to life on the Material Plane are threats to her Red Dragon assets allies. I imagine one of the latter could easily dispatch the Returner.
.

Too bad she has been dead since dungeon #100. Unless you are playing the non canon version where she became a goddess.

Asking the gods for help seems so cowardly. I say try as prime mortals and if you get TPK'd, raise as good extraplanars proxies of gods. That way you still get to play hero and not beggar. I personally always wanted to play a trumpet archon or astral deva. This gives the DM the flexibility to grant abilities to the PCs if things get too tough since you all proxies.
I cannot think of a more appropriate time to be devine than this.

[hamishspence]

How canon is Dungeon anyway? I see the adventures as optional- they don't have to have actually happened if you don't want them to. Kyuss is obvious example- in Dungeon, Kyuss when released is rank 1 deity, and is imprisoned in Wormcrawl Fissure, in Elder Evils, is imprisoned on island, and has somewhat different powers.

Vlaakith is statted out in Planar Handbook- DM might not want to kill her off as per Dungeon.

[Waspinator]

They can't confirm that fact, as Elder Evils are immune to divine detection. You also won't be able to later on thanks to Pandorym's sign.
I thought they were just immune to divine divination. So, if you could actually convince some of the gods to send some of their minions or whatever to where the elder evil is currently before awakening, they could then confirm it with their own eyes.

Of course, Pandorym messes that up since then they probably can't go at all. You know, the elder evils probably wouldn't be that bad to fight if not for those signs. Some of those really mess up the world, like the own that makes pretty much everything that dies come back as a zombie. That could get ugly FAST.

[Ganurath]

Wait a sec, all this stuff that Pandorym's doing to prevent roleplay from being a factor in a roleplaying game... Wouldn't it also prevent the devils from invading the Abyss, or stop all those high level mages evacuating people to the Shadow Plane from beating around the bush and being the Batmen that they are?

[Samb]

Well dungeon and dragon adventures are as canon as you want them to be. I mean how canon are all those ret-con dragonlance books? The folks at planewalker consider the lich queen dead and have taken away the Githyanki planeshift ability as a result. Besides, why would an astral dwelling lich care if a prime world got wiped? Not like she is a goddess with worshipers in prime worlds. Hence, if you have her actually becoming a goddess maybe she would give a damn.

Red dragons are bound to help the githyanki, they are not allies, plus what's one prime world of red dragons when she has the whole multiverse of them to pick from.

[afroakuma]

Wait a sec, all this stuff that Pandorym's doing to prevent roleplay from being a factor in a roleplaying game...

What do you mean? There's actually more roleplay involved when the citizens of the world feel their gods grow distant, when the world's mages can't vanish back to their towers, when (as someone mentioned) ancient liches become valuable allies, vicious fiends must work with mortals simply to return hom, the dead walk, the living fester...

I assume you mean that Pandorym removes roleplaying wins... which is exactly the point. These guys are Lovecraftian or CRPG villains - there's no abdication, no running to Mom and Dad, no appeals to a deus ex machina - heck, many Elder Evils can't or will not be faced by the gods, because they played that card already and lost (Ragnorra, Zargon), because they're fundamentally more powerful (Pandorym, the Leviathan), because the gods fear escalation (the Hulks of Zoretha, Father Llymic)...

They're intended as final conflicts, and handing them off to something else is ridiculous and largely defeats the purpose.


Wouldn't it also prevent the devils from invading the Abyss

Nope. Pandorym only seals the world it's on.


or stop all those high level mages evacuating people to the Shadow Plane from beating around the bush and being the Batmen that they are?

Eventually, yes, but:

• The wizards will be busy trying to fix the other damage to the world (crazy weather, rampaging trapped fiends, destruction of sites of worship, scads of zombies, creepy crawlies, unending freezerburn)

• Or the wizards, being Batmen, won't care about the crap that's happening, because they can stay in the Plane of Shadow with their evacuees or travel to some other world entirely. Genesis, anyone?

[Volkov]

One of my pals expressed interest in having us play a campaign where he uses a book that none of us have. Later I found it was Elder Evils, and his grand scheme is to have us fight all of them.

So, tips, breakages, anything?

This guy and I always try and break the others campaign, so don't hold back.

It takes place in Forgotten Realms.

Which Elder evil is it? Zargon and Father Illymic are simply annoying, nine hells damn Zargon's regeneration 50 and his ability to come back as long as his indestructible horn remains. Ragnorra, Atropus, Sertrous or Kyuss are mildly threatening, they can't send out anything you can't handle, although you'll be overwhelmed pretty fast by the sheer number of their servants. The Leviathan and most of all Pandorym are OMGWTFYOURALLDEAD strong, if you fail to stop them before they are released/awakened, there's nothing you can do to stop them.

[Volkov]

It also seems that if a god faces Zargon his stats increases ten fold, I can't find a way for him to slaughter gods so easily and still get his arse handed to him by Asmodeus's Avatar. The Leviathan itself is so big, that even if a god grew to the maximum it's powers will allow it to, it can still blink at said god, and the resulting amount of wind will send the god flying.

Ragnorra and Sertrous cannot be touched by the gods, their spells always fail against them, and their powers cannot affect them. Divine magic is similarly useless against them, which is why they had to send a angel to beat Sertrous, who for a minor Obyrith lord is immensely powerful, even as an Aspect.

His Aspect is as powerful as the most powerful obyrith to have ever lived's aspect, Then again Sertrous probably has much more invested in his aspect than Obox-ob did. Which means, if Sertrous did get his full form back, he'd be so far into the epic levels that even Asmodeus would despair.

Pandorym is possibly the mightiest of all the god killers, a small fragment of his mind is as powerful as an Elder Brain. His full mind is so powerful that statistics don't even matter anymore. If his body were to merge with the beefed up orb of annihilation that is his bodies. The great wheel would be no more. Only nothingness and the far realm.

After all, they did say that Pandorym could end the campaign setting once released.

[Waspinator]

You know, the signs when all of these guys are active might just be the worst part of all this. Let's summarize:

Necromancy spells at +2 CL. Healing spells need DC (20 + spell level) Spellcraft check to succeed. Desecrate and unhallows spells in effect across entire planet. Any creature that dies rises 1 round later as a zombie. All undead gain 2 hit dice. All undead get turn resistance of 1/4 of their HD.

The sun vanishes. All spells and magic items with the light descriptor stop working. All darkness spells get a free application of Extend Spell and Quicken Spell. Average global temperature drops by at least 1 degree per day.

Every creature must make a DC 15 will save or go into an enhanced barbarian rage until it kills a living creature. All starting attitudes drop two steps.

Weird weather events happen hourly. They are worldwide and range from fog to hurricanes to flaming hail.

All conjuration (calling, summoning, teleportation) spells fail. Divination that requires extraplanar contact fails. -4 caster level for divine spells, -20 on turn undead checks, and 20% each day of a divine spell slot not being replenished.

Healing spells are boosted, but carry a chance of mutating the target. Spores rain down and mutate creatures. Undead get blasted daily by the equivalent of turn undead.

Armies of giant snakes and snake-related monsters appear and start attacking people.

Swarms of purple worms also become common.

More weird weather, including corrupting rains of slime.

Basically, you're all doomed. The combination of "murderous rage" and "everyone who dies becomes a zombie" can not end well.

[Draken]

Eh. Somewhere among the last page he said he wasn't going be facing them all at once.

I am not sure how his DM intends to go about the storylines in this case. Might end up in the evils and the servants getting progressively larger.

I just considered what is worse. Caira Xasten as a level 80 Ur Priest, or Atropus as a CR 100 thingy.

Caira probably. Boom. 800 mile radius AftS.

Wait. What am I saying. At that level it would be widened, so 1600 mile radius. It would also be twined and explosive-ed. So it would deal nothing short of... How many feet does a mile have?

[Crel]

Hey, this is the DM of the campaign... i was going to try to head off this thread before it took off, but seeing as i found out about it just now... oops. Well, since theres so much crap on here already, keep brainstorming. I don't intend to play "by the rules" from the Elder Evils book, aka don't use them as specific plans for what I'm going to do. My attempt with this, honestly, is to kill the PCs. There are at least 6 players, all starting at level 1, and I'm planning to take them through the entire campaign, and then see how well they did in prep. Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, and Unearthed Arcana are all thats banned currently, along with my holding the DM's Smite privilege if someone does something overly powerful or stupid (a certain wizard nut i know) or a class like planar shepherd. I'll decide on some of the others mentioned when i get my hands on a copy of the book. Also, for your attempts at planning, I will give you the hint I have given my players; All nine elder evils at once. Also, they will probably not get into, or at least not far into, epic levels, so don't count on over-leveling to save you/them. Also, when I find out who started the thread, I am going to give them LIVING HELL!

[Draken]

Hey, this is the DM of the campaign... i was going to try to head off this thread before it took off, but seeing as i found out about it just now... oops. Well, since theres so much crap on here already, keep brainstorming. I don't intend to play "by the rules" from the Elder Evils book, aka don't use them as specific plans for what I'm going to do. My attempt with this, honestly, is to kill the PCs. There are at least 6 players, all starting at level 1, and I'm planning to take them through the entire campaign, and then see how well they did in prep. Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, and Unearthed Arcana are all thats banned currently, along with my holding the DM's Smite privilege if someone does something overly powerful or stupid (a certain wizard nut i know) or a class like planar shepherd. I'll decide on some of the others mentioned when i get my hands on a copy of the book. Also, for your attempts at planning, I will give you the hint I have given my players; All nine elder evils at once. Also, they will probably not get into, or at least not far into, epic levels, so don't count on over-leveling to save you/them. Also, when I find out who started the thread, I am going to give them LIVING HELL!

Your players will die.

This campaign will not end with anyone alive. I give you this bit of insight.

Also, Ragnorra will negate Atropus' sign.

Why is this?

Simply because it is impossible to place all Elder Evils in the same room, even if you go with a different fluff/strategy. Aspects of the Leviathan are mainly aquatic monsters. Ragnorra is her own room. Atropus requires an open space to use his horrible, horrible meteor shower power.

The elder evils might kill each other by accident just for being in the same general area, and even then, the world is still going to implode.

[Ganurath]

Draken: You're assuming, of course, that Ragnorra will be able to get past Pandorym's sign.

[afroakuma]

Hey, this is the DM of the campaign... i was going to try to head off this thread before it took off, but seeing as i found out about it just now... oops. Well, since theres so much crap on here already, keep brainstorming.

I think this thread is actually doing you more good than your group, since potential stunts are getting shot down, along with organizational details, the proper functions of the signs, interactivity between multiple Elder Evils...

[Draken]

Draken: You're assuming, of course, that Ragnorra will be able to get past Pandorym's sign.

It just might beat the purpose to say this after he has stated that the nine EEs will be in the same place at the same time.

[afroakuma]

He didn't specify same place, just "all at once," which could mean he just plans to run them concurrently. Realistically, that's the only way to actually do it, because the battle otherwise would simply be too vast in terms of space required. And as you said, one of them is the room. :smallwink:

I don't see why Ragnorra wouldn't go through Pandorym's Seal of Binding, though, since she's no god and resides on the Material Plane already.

[chiasaur11]

Diplomancer has been suggested already, I'm sure, although the jumplomancer would be hilarious here.

How about tricking the EEs into worshiping the Lady of Pain?

If it works, well...

[Crel]

Yeah, i wrote the previous post before I had actually had a chance to read the entire thread, and it is a help. I actually don't have how I'm going to do it, I just know that I want to. I would say what my slowly slowly slowly developing plans are, but then my party members would know too. If anyone wants to give a hand on how to work it, or be in on it, pm me, so that it doesn't leak.

thanks:smallsmile:

[Olo Demonsbane]

Be a Beguiler. Find one of the EEs who is not immune to mind affecting (I don't have my book with me) and become its trusted servant. NOW, get the spell trick false theurgy, and start using Dominate Monster willy-nilly. It is suprisingly easy to kill all of them in one Battle if you have an unleashed Pandorym on your side :smallwink:

[Draken]

Elder Evil properities are basically the same as DR zero, and grant miriad of immunities.

Yea. I am afraid there is no easy solution.

Maybe if each of your characters takes leadership, and their cohorts take leadership. And each one goes after one of the less strong Elder Evils at once, their hundreds of followers might just deal relevant amounts of damage after the first round. Because they are all going to die before the second.

Then you can move on to the really problematic ones, who will need the party and their bunch of cohorts grouped together. I, obviously, refer to Pandorym and Atropus. Worm can be like this too, specially if you exchange his silly Dominate Monster for Disjunction. For the ultimate party kill.

[chiasaur11]

I ask you, where's Tippy when you need him?

We could use an overpowered Mageocracy about now!

[afroakuma]

I ask you, where's Tippy when you need him?

We could use an overpowered Mageocracy about now!

Why do you keep trying for the instant fix answers?

They're not appropriate, and they're not applicable.

[Waspinator]

You know, an awesome answer would be if you could get a creation forge going and crush the Evils with a warforged army.

[TheCountAlucard]

How many feet does a mile have? Five thousand, two hundred and eighty.

[Alleine]

I know how to win.
1. Get everyone to be bitten by wear-bears so that you become wear-bears.
2. Get a wizard to cast prestigitation on you in hybrid form so that each of you is a different pastel color
3. Hold hands, sing happy songs, and make liberal use of the power of WUV.
4. ???
5. Get murdered by the DM for being carebears.

[Neithan]

Yea. I am afraid there is no easy solution.
I think you're actually not supposed to defeat them. :smallbiggrin:

Once they rise, everything is over. :smallyuk:

[Olo Demonsbane]

How to kill the EEs with an army:

1. Get Leadership.
2. Have a Wearbear as your Cohort.
3. Have oodles of Warlocks as your followers.
4. Have your werebear bite all of your Warlocks to increase their survivability.
5. Get Undead Leadership.
6. Get more Warlock followers.
7. Get a Vampire for a Cohort,
8. Vampiric Werebear Warlocks FTW!
9. ????
10. Profit!

[chiasaur11]

You know, an awesome answer would be if you could get a creation forge going and crush the Evils with a warforged army.

Oh yeah.

Now this idea... this idea is fun. Robot (I know they aren't robots technically for some reason, and the zeds in 28 days later are infected and so on, but I don't care) armies are always a solid solution.

[Volkov]

Elder Evils are not particularly impressive stat-wise. Compared to, say, Kyuss from Age of Worms AP, even to his fully weakened version, they are rather weak (non-weakened version can probably defeat every creature in this book even if they all attack him at the same time). A 20+ level party that actually survived to this level fighting level-appropriate stuff should kick their asses without even resorting to Incantatrixes, Cheaters of Mystra and truly uber chargers. The main problem is their signs, as most of them wreck the world bigtime. So, the problem is to find and defeat evils before their signs reach overwhelming level.

Pandorym if reunited with his body, would destroy anything ever presented in any source book without a moments thought. To touch his body is death, to have divine ranks and face him is to spell your doom, to even look at him funny warrants your removal from reality.

[SilverClawShift]

Robot armies are always a solid solution.

Until you find out that the twisted and forbidden magics necessary to build a forge capable of giving life to an army of robots leaves a splinter crack in *kbzz* the laws of reality itself, causing a fragment of the personality of ANOTHER eldritch *kbzz* evil to squeek into our world, contained in the vessels that are being continuously produced.
And once these mockeries of life grow *kbzz* to an army of suitable size *kbzz**kbzz* this fragmentary personality becomes DOMINANT in a cresendo of alien sounds and thoughts *kbzz*.

Then *kbzz* this army of unknowable minds in near indesctructible bodies *kbzz* begins marching against their former creators, shredding *kbzz* the still living bodies of their fallen foes *kbzz* to use their organic material in the creation of more forges, in *kbzz* more vessels for *kbzz**kbzz* their collective concious to force through, spreading, fighting and spreading until *kbzz**kbzz**kbzz* there is nothing left but *kbzz* them.

fOr ThE hIvE! *kbzz*

...Damn, I think I just came up with my groups next campaign.

[chiasaur11]

Until you find out that the twisted and forbidden magics necessary to build a forge capable of giving life to an army of robots leaves a splinter crack in *kbzz* the laws of reality itself, causing a fragment of the personality of ANOTHER eldritch *kbzz* evil to squeek into our world, contained in the vessels that are being continuously produced.
And once these mockeries of life grow *kbzz* to an army of suitable size *kbzz**kbzz* this fragmentary personality becomes DOMINANT in a cresendo of alien sounds and thoughts *kbzz*.

Then *kbzz* this army of unknowable minds in near indesctructible bodies *kbzz* begins marching against their former creators, shredding *kbzz* the still living bodies of their fallen foes *kbzz* to use their organic material in the creation of more forges, in *kbzz* more vessels for *kbzz**kbzz* their collective concious to force through, spreading, fighting and spreading until *kbzz**kbzz**kbzz* there is nothing left but *kbzz* them.

fOr ThE hIvE! *kbzz*

...Damn, I think I just came up with my groups next campaign.

Oh.

I was hoping they'd merely develop insane hatred of the meatbag oppressors, and possibly god complexes.

Oh well, back to the old drawing board.

[Volkov]

If all nine elder evils were active at once, Atropus and Ragnorra would immediately quarrel, as their signs interfere with each other, so Ragnorra would engage in an Epic battle with the Aspect of Atropus, with Atropus eventually winning as he is a better damage dealer. Of course if Ragnorra is in True mother form, her corrupt positive energy bolt and constant turn undead aura would be the death of Atropus. But I think the Negative Energy Aura would cancel out the Positive energy aura, but this would leave atropus wide open for the Corrupt energy bolt which functions like a empowered cure moderate wounds spell, so 3d8+15, but it keeps on sending positive energy through you until your dead.

Although Atropus does have Meteor swarm as a 3 usage per day special ability, create greater undead as an at will abillity, and circle of death as an at will. But all Ragnorra needs is one positive energy bolt and Atropus will slowly die. Not to mention that it will also rob him of two hit dice per round. Then Ragnorra can hit him with a healing cyst, robbing him of 225 hit points, and continue to do so until the creator of the gods goes running home.

Zargon and the Leviathan's eerie weather will be devastating as you have two potentially catastrophic weather effects per hour, you could have Flaming Hail and a Thunder storm, with a Rain of Slime. Or over twenty four tornadoes and acid rain. Also, it will baffle every weather man on the planet. Although if the leviathan produces a cold snap and Zargon makes a Heat wave, you'll only get minor temperature changes.

But if they both roll 40s on their cold snap or heat waves, Well I do not need to stress how badly a temperature change of 80 degrees will screw up the planet. Just think, the global average is a mere 45 degrees, If it drops by eighty, on average the planet will be -35. Which means all water in anywhere but a desert, will freeze solid.

Antartica will become so cold that carbon dioxide would turn into dry ice, and even huddling together will not save the cuddly wuddly penguins. Now for the inverse, in a few areas the temperature will surpass the boiling point, meaning no water, at all...Also all ice in the world will most definitely melt.

This will make true dragons very upset. However if a Copper dragon tried to fight Zargon, it would lose, it's main way of dealing damage would not work, It's spells would be nigh useless, and Zargon has ludicrous Damage reduction and regeneration. Not to Mention he'd have Juiblex's backing.

Now as for Kyuss and Sertrous. If their effects combined you'd have huge armies of Worms and Snakes running around, your players would have either a %20 chance every 30 minutes or a %40 chance every hour of having a random encounter with something pretty bad. Not to mention if any of them die they would rise as Abberations. Not pretty.

Father Illymic will be unnoticed as the global temperatures slowly reach absolute zero. Upon that time, everyone becomes an icicle. EVERYONE.

[Faulty]

Is it even possible to kill Pandorym or Atropus (the moon, not his aspect)? I don't have the book, but based on the thread, it seems like the most rational action would be suicide.

[Eldariel]

Is it even possible to kill Pandorym or Atropus (the moon, not his aspect)? I don't have the book, but based on the thread, it seems like the most rational action would be suicide.

Not by the book - they aren't provided with stats (and neither is Leviathan). They'd rank somewhere along the lines of Deities - really tough to kill, game not planned for that level, etc.

[Faulty]

And they're immune to divine intervention, right? Even Den-whatever the Night Serpent is stated out in the Player's Guide to Faerun, so the fact that they aren't stated is really worrying. Thinking about it's sorta depressing... no wonder H.P. Lovecraft's characters go insane.

[arguskos]

Lessee....

Pandorym is a being from a place "at right angles to reality", to quote the book.

Atropus is the being that gave birth to the gods, then died during the birthing.

Leviathan is the living incarnation of Chaos.


...and you really think anyone is able to anything other than mildly annoy these things? REALLY? I mean, they are immune to GODLY POWERS, meaning that overgods can't even do anything about them. When Ao is outclassed, PC's need to get the clue and just run away.

I always had an urge to actually stat out those three as their real bodies, but I don't think 3.5 can do that w/o breaking with a sickening crack.

[RavKal]

Atsu and I have decided to roll up Jumplomancers and recruit fanatic apocalypses to fight non-fanaticable apocalypses.

[arguskos]

Atsu and I have decided to roll up Jumplomancers and recruit fanatic apocalypses to fight non-fanaticable apocalypses.
I guess if you have to fight 8-odd apocalypses at once, might as well do it with the entire population of the known world at your back.

Don't forget to get everyone before the world starts going to ****, cause Atropus' undead hordes don't take well to Jump checks. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

And they're immune to divine intervention, right? Even Den-whatever the Night Serpent is stated out in the Player's Guide to Faerun, so the fact that they aren't stated is really worrying. Thinking about it's sorta depressing... no wonder H.P. Lovecraft's characters go insane.

Divine divination only - Gods can't find 'em (although I have a hard time believing some God would have difficulty using arcane magic...).

[afroakuma]

Yeah, but then it's still of divine origin. Not to mention, why would a god believe that something exists that they can't sense with their own power?

As far as the fanatics, remember that they're all gonna flip out and kill people... then they'll rise as zombies... I prefer to work with as few members of the mook squad as possible when challenging Elder Evils.

[arguskos]

Here's an idea: play a full caster, and boost your CL to 26. Then, use gate spells to summon multiple Hecatoncheires. Their massive number of attacks and damage can/will make short work of most Elder Evils. I'd pay good money to see a Hecatoncheires carve Ragnorra or Atropus's Aspect into neat cubes.

Frankly, I'd bet that CL 26 is doable too. If you can't get a Hecatoncheires, grab an Infernal or Dream Larva instead (CL 20 required). Both are pretty formidable critters. Oh, Gibbering Orbs and Phanes might be useful too. Phanes are esp good, since they can summon a past duplicate of the Elder Evil to fight it. Good way to turn the tables on the Elder Evil (also, sorta mind-bending).

(NOTE: Above critters are from the Epic Level Handbook.)

[afroakuma]

Abominations are immune to compulsion, though, and I think they technically fall into "unique" categorization anyway.

[TheCountAlucard]

Also, Pandorym's sign prevents it.

[Kris Strife]

I've got it!
Kill Obligatum, which stops Pandorym and its sign.
Plane shift Leviathin to Mechanus, Ragnorra to the negative energy plane, Llymic to the Elemental plain of fire (or Pelor's doorstep), Atropus and Edwin Tolstoff before he starts the ritual to the positive energy plain, Sertrous to the Abyss, and Zargon to Asmodeus' door step with directions to the Eye of Zargon.

That leaves you with just the Hulks to deal with.

[afroakuma]

Kill Obligatum, which stops Pandorym and its sign.

You still have Lucather around; also, it wouldn't stop the sign, it would just keep it at its current state.


Plane shift Leviathin to Mechanus

Firstly, you can't. Secondly, if you do that you have bigger worries than the remaining Elder Evils, since the multiverse is about to skew hard towards Chaos.


Ragnorra to the negative energy plane

Again, you cannot, and doing so might have terrible repercussions.


Atropus and Edwin Tolstoff before he starts the ritual to the positive energy plain

See above.


Zargon to Asmodeus' door step

You can't get him there. You can't just plane shift to Asmodeus' doorstep.

[Kris Strife]

I think you have to kill Lucather off before fighting Obligatum. And the idea is to get rid of the planeshifting block first. And there will be major, problematic changes reguardless.

And by doorstep, I mean: where they'll notice ASAP.

[afroakuma]

Evidently you misunderstood me:

You cannot plane shift the Leviathan because the spell won't breach its SR. It will also succeed on the Will save.

You cannot plane shift Ragnorra because she (in True Mother form) cannot be directly attacked.

You cannot plane shift Atropus because he's a moon. The spell won't breach his SR. He will also succeed on the Will save.

Also, as plane shift is a touch spell, it's an incredibly bad idea.

[Kris Strife]

Its also probably impossible for all of them to be active at once. And use gate or some other spell to send them the other planes.

[afroakuma]

Gate cannot forcibly remove things that don't want to go. Not to mention you can't fit the Leviathan or Atropus through one.

[Starbuck_II]

Afro:
You cannot plane shift the Leviathan because the spell won't breach its SR. It will also succeed on the Will save.


There are spells to low SR and Saves (limited Wish fior instance is -7).

There are Prcs that allow you to cast Mind affecting spells on immune creatures (in fact, Complete Mage allows this with an adaptation).

So you could just Dominate the beast.

[afroakuma]

There are spells to low SR and Saves (limited Wish fior instance is -7).

Sure, but what's impossibly high and unstatted minus seven?


There are Prcs that allow you to cast Mind affecting spells on immune creatures (in fact, Complete Mage allows this with an adaptation).

So you could just Dominate the beast.

See above. Even if you can bypass its immunity, you still have impossible SR and saves to overcome. Which you cannot do.

[Starbuck_II]

Unstatted doesn't make it automatically high: it could be extremely low by that reasoning.

[Eldariel]

See above. Even if you can bypass its immunity, you still have impossible SR and saves to overcome. Which you cannot do.

Now technically it's possible to remove infinite SR from a creature (among others, Factotum's level 11 ability allows ignoring SR for a turn). Likewise, technically it's IIRC possible to force a fail on a saving throw. That said, doing all that seems incredibly dumb as you could instead pretend to be an overdeity and throw at them an Orb like the world has never seen. Or just throw the Sun at them. Sure, you'll break the world anyhow, but at least you killed the bad guy. If you're evil, you'll just planeshift away and pretend nothing happened, while feeling really good about yourself.

[afroakuma]

You can sense where you're on thin ice by this point. :smallconfused:

:smallsigh: Unstatted in this instance means irrelevant. There are no given statistics for the Leviathan, Atropos, Pandorym or Sertrous because they're all impossible to fight directly. I note the Leviathan similarly has no HD value... are you suggesting that since it's unstatted it might have only 1 HD and just be praying that nobody cottons on?

[RavKal]

Here's an idea: play a full caster, and boost your CL to 26. Then, use gate spells to summon multiple Hecatoncheires. Their massive number of attacks and damage can/will make short work of most Elder Evils. I'd pay good money to see a Hecatoncheires carve Ragnorra or Atropus's Aspect into neat cubes.

Frankly, I'd bet that CL 26 is doable too. If you can't get a Hecatoncheires, grab an Infernal or Dream Larva instead (CL 20 required). Both are pretty formidable critters. Oh, Gibbering Orbs and Phanes might be useful too. Phanes are esp good, since they can summon a past duplicate of the Elder Evil to fight it. Good way to turn the tables on the Elder Evil (also, sorta mind-bending).

(NOTE: Above critters are from the Epic Level Handbook.)

I like this. I think I will do this.

[afroakuma]

Already warned you, RavKal, it won't work.

Actually, it will probably do far more harm than good.

[chiasaur11]

Yes, Afroakuma. Leviathon does have just one HD.

He's just got a really, really good PR firm. Same guy Cthulhu has.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, Afroakuma. Leviathon does have just one HD.

He's just got a really, really good PR firm. Same guy Cthulhu has.

True, the Ghostbusters took down Cthulhu, didn't they?

[chiasaur11]

True, the Ghostbusters took down Cthulhu, didn't they?

So did Steve, and Allosaurus. And probably, at some point, Batman.

Definitely Squirrel Girl. She gets stuff done.

[RavKal]

Already warned you, RavKal, it won't work.

Actually, it will probably do far more harm than good.

With a little tinkering I bet I can get a gate to open. Either that or introduce Pazuzu or somesuch.

At this point the goal is to a) take advantage of every gap available
and b) out-apocalypse the dm.

[Alleine]

Kill Obligatum and Lucather. Then tell Pandorym that you'd really appreciate it if it would kill everything not you. Shatter its prison and help it find its body.

Then maybe it might not erase you from existence. Maybe.

[afroakuma]

With a little tinkering I bet I can get a gate to open. Either that or introduce Pazuzu or somesuch.

At this point the goal is to a) take advantage of every gap available
and b) out-apocalypse the dm.

Remember, Pazuzu is entirely within your DM's jurisdiction. As for the gates, like I said - you can open one (sans Pandorym's sign) but what you bring through will not obey you, and will probably kill you.

[Faulty]

So if these things are unstatted, how the Hell do you stop them?

[RavKal]

Remember, Pazuzu is entirely within your DM's jurisdiction. As for the gates, like I said - you can open one (sans Pandorym's sign) but what you bring through will not obey you, and will probably kill you.

i once got away with a candle loop, so i'm betting i could do it, to an extent.

and the idea is to cast gate and then leave rather swiftly.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You don't. You kill off their minions/avatars until you bore them and they go back to sleep. For a time anyway.


BTW, anyone thought of statting the dreaded trio as Elder Evils? The Betrayer of Hope (War), The Corruptor of All (Plague) and The Destroyer of Worlds (Death) would make pretty good elder evils. Plus they got cool horses.

[Faulty]

Isn't it the four horses of the apocalypse? And if the Elder Evils are so powerful, why don't they just come down and wreck your **** instead of living their more easily defeated minions running about?

[Olo Demonsbane]

As for the gates, like I said - you can open one (sans Pandorym's sign) but what you bring through will not obey you, and will probably kill you.

Thats what they made the teleport spell for :smallbiggrin:

[Salt_Crow]

Isn't it the four horses of the apocalypse? And if the Elder Evils are so powerful, why don't they just come down and wreck your **** instead of living their more easily defeated minions running about?

Most of them are trapped/imprisoned (Pandorym, Worm that Walks etc) or otherwise simply roaming around the multiverse. The minions are simply plot devices (read: DM's excuse) for calling them to the material plane in the first place :)

[afroakuma]

You interrupt them.

You make Atropos run away.

You can and do kill Father Llymic.

You can and do kill the Hulks of Zoretha. And you hope that's enough.

You quiet the Leviathan.

You stop Pandorym's latest escape attempt.

You make Ragnorra retreat.

You destroy Sertrous' avatar, compromising his rebirth (possibly killing him).

Ideally, you keep Kyuss trapped by interrupting the ritual.

Zargon you can kill... several times over. There is actually a permanent way to dispose of this loser, so by all means, have at it.

[chiasaur11]

You don't. You kill off their minions/avatars until you bore them and they go back to sleep. For a time anyway.


BTW, anyone thought of statting the dreaded trio as Elder Evils? The Betrayer of Hope (War), The Corruptor of All (Plague) and The Destroyer of Worlds (Death) would make pretty good elder evils. Plus they got cool horses.

Well, Death is a decent guy.

Heck, you can call him in to deal with the other guys if you need, and he's willing. He saved the little Match Girl, after all.

[Faulty]

You make Atropos run away.

What would possess a moon covered in powerful undead to run? Is his power linked to his Aspect?


You can and do kill Father Llymic.

You can and do kill the Hulks of Zoretha. And you hope that's enough.

That's reassuring.


You quiet the Leviathan.


You stop Pandorym's latest escape attempt.

Can you do that permanently?


Zargon you can kill... several times over. There is actually a permanent way to dispose of this loser, so by all means, have at it.

Owned.

[Fan]

What would possess a moon covered in powerful undead to run? Is his power linked to his Aspect?



That's reassuring.





Can you do that permanently?



Owned.
get every epic cleric on the planet
Use the chaos shuffle to give them all positive energy emenation, and have them all turn undead on the moon.
Win ensues, espeically if you have pelor clerics in that mix.

[Faulty]

Can you turn the moon though?

[Fan]

Can you turn the moon though?
Thats why I said every epic cleric on the planet.
You have alot of area to cover, and it would have to be done on a consecrated spell jammer made out of the bones of Saints.:smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

What would possess a moon covered in powerful undead to run? Is his power linked to his Aspect?

You hurt him, and there's obviously easier worlds to apocalypt.


That's reassuring.

Unless the Hulks' creators decide to look into things, then yes.


Can you do that permanently?

Nope.


Owned.

I am not a fan of Zargon. Which makes it all the more wonderful that he can be permakilled. Let Asmodeus do it himself and you might even get some cool stuff in the process.

[Faulty]

You hurt him, and there's obviously easier worlds to apocalypt.[quote]

I can see this, I guess.

[quote]Nope.

:smallfrown:


I am not a fan of Zargon. Which makes it all the more wonderful that he can be permakilled. Let Asmodeus do it himself and you might even get some cool stuff in the process.

I sort of like Asmodeus, as far as evil super-beings go. Sounds like a fun way to resolve it, heh.

The fact that you can't permanently get rid of/slumber a lot of the Elder Evils I find really depressing. It really screws up the way you'd look at the world. Something completely unslayable and more powerful than a god that wants all life exterminated. It's just a fictional thing, and the thought still chills me.

[Starbuck_II]

If a Binder is Binding Zagan currently: will he be nicer since you let him see the world before his arrival?

[lsfreak]

Thats why I said every epic cleric on the planet.
You have alot of area to cover, and it would have to be done on a consecrated spell jammer made out of the bones of Saints.:smallbiggrin:
Using skeleton equivalency*, the moon is roughly 200 quadrillion hit dice.

*Skeleton equivalency is assuming every 5x5x5 area is 1 hit dice

[Fan]

Using skeleton equivalency*, the moon is roughly 200 quadrillion hit dice.

*Skeleton equivalency is assuming every 5x5x5 area is 1 hit dice

Solars.... Lots of them... You dont even need gate rape for this one as its a single action.

[afroakuma]

The fact that you can't permanently get rid of/slumber a lot of the Elder Evils I find really depressing. It really screws up the way you'd look at the world. Something completely unslayable and more powerful than a god that wants all life exterminated. It's just a fictional thing, and the thought still chills me.

Old-style D&D played host to a lot of these.

Not to mention, the Far Realm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf6T7DCR5cU) plays host to scary godless entities (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MotP/Far_Realm_Entity.jpg) that cower in fear of their transdimensional overlords.

And yes, you'd learn to fear and despair in a big way.

[Faulty]

Did you mean to link me to a FF music video? And yes, I'm sure I really, really would. Then again, it gives more license to hedonism. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

I certainly did. That's one of the tracks I use to depict Far Realm encroachment. The ones I use to depict the Far Realm itself are far worse.

[Faulty]

Ah, I see. This is making me want to read some H.P. Lovecraft again.

EDIT: Wouldn't Ao be able to pluck them out of existence, though? He's the over god after all. Though he seems to try to avoid interference.

[SilverClawShift]

AO is so dettached that there's really no telling what his existence even means. He's more powerful than the gods, but does he control the universe? or does he just have authority over anything with divine ranks? What can he actually DO? Not to mention, what is his thought process. Is he powerless? lazy?

What if AO is an elder evil of sorts himself? What if AO is just a gardener tending to a whole mess of universes, waiting until one becomes ripe before he plucks it to feed?

All of existence could just be a grape in AOs vineyard, and there wouldn't be jack anyone or anything could do about it.

[chiasaur11]

You know, all the fear is just drained out of them by Pun-Pun and the diplomancer.

I mean, really, if you're a dark god, and a crotchety old lizard who just got into a holy warrior gig and has a hobby of reading about other dimensions or a jerk who gets off on pain loops can clobber you with his hands tied behind his back...

You wanna keep it secret is all I'm saying.

Dumb, but it amuses me far more than it should.

[Crel]

AO is so dettached that there's really no telling what his existence even means. He's more powerful than the gods, but does he control the universe? or does he just have authority over anything with divine ranks? What can he actually DO? Not to mention, what is his thought process. Is he powerless? lazy?

What if AO is an elder evil of sorts himself? What if AO is just a gardener tending to a whole mess of universes, waiting until one becomes ripe before he plucks it to feed?

All of existence could just be a grape in AOs vineyard, and there wouldn't be jack anyone or anything could do about it.

hm... this is an interesting idea. thanks... heh. I'm not sure how I'm going to do fighting them all at the same time/about the same time, but I am not letting the party turn the moon. Thats just absurd, my ruling on that would be that Atropus is just so infinitely undead that he can't be turned. Leviathan, I don't intend to have the party fight directly, because that would, again as many have said, be insane. Zargon will probably just go rampaging, along with Sertrous'es armies. If the over-whelming number of encounters are too much to mess with and are slowing down the game, I'll probably cut them by 10-30% on the rolls. Since I am, after all, trying to use them all at once, I won't be following the book exactly, will probably mix their storylines together so that it flows better and is able to grow to an epic cataclysm. On the subject of whoever (don't remember who it was) said that having so many would make them seem normal, i majorly disagree. The point is to have the most amazingly epic fights (which I might even record) possible.

Also, for the planning, this is a non-evil campaign, so keep it in mind; you can't just try to team up with the elder evils. As a side note, Pandorym doesn't want to destroy the multiverse, just the gods, and then find a way home, then, if he can't, blow the hell out of the multiverse.

Hm... the final battle(s) might take up their own plane. Hey, where does Io live?

[Kris Strife]

AO created the gods? The book says Atropus did that... Is Atropus actually AO? Dun-Dun-Dun.

And to solve things: Every one make an exalted caster. Sanctify the wicked on every evil being you find.

[Colmarr]

What if AO is an elder evil of sorts himself? What if AO is just a gardener tending to a whole mess of universes, waiting until one becomes ripe before he plucks it to feed?

And what if the Elder Evils are actually the universe's way of ensuring it never gets ripe enough to draw his attention?

An interesting twist on how evil can be good...

Pity it's too esoteric to actually be useful in a campaign.

[Volkov]

Its also probably impossible for all of them to be active at once. And use gate or some other spell to send them the other planes.

If you dare to bring the leviathan to mechanus, Order will be destroyed, and armies of Slaadi will destroy us all. Then all planes will join the ever changing chaos of limbo to form a super plane. Then Limbo decides to bug the far realm, and Limbo is consumed.

[Volkov]

Also who the crap is brave enough to touch a fully awake Plesiosaur who's head is larger than the country of Germany. If it so much as sneezed on you, the wind force would be enough to flay a great wyrm prismatic dragon alive in a second. If it clamped it's jaws on you, it would probably one shot a god.

Also it's reach would be so large it could attack you from the other side of the world. Nothing short of a Far realm Overlord could take it on. Although you could trick it into raising it's head above the atmosphere.

As for pandorym, if he unites with his body, your screwed, you can't even touch him and survive, I think if he unites with his body, it would be able to destroy gods through simple contact. Also, it's effective Psion level would be so ridiculously high you might as well forget trying to measure it. Not to mention every divine caster, everywhere would instantly become powerless, also souls would never be able to leave the material plane, and all planes become isolated.

Possibly even layers of the same plane would be seperated. So Graz'zt would be stuck in whatever layer he was in at that time. But worst of all Nelfeshnees would have to walk!!! It's their worst nightmare!!! Think of the complaining!!!!

[Faulty]

Hey, where does Io live?

Ao is the Forgotten Realm's Overgod. He doesn't have a plane of existence I believe, and doesn't grant spells. He has no portfolio and the only people who worship him are tiny, splintered groups of cultists who get nothing out of it in return. Only with his permission can new gods or goddesses be admited into the pantheon and he's so powerful that he once banished all of the gods but one to the material plane (the Times of Trouble). Basically, he's incredibly powerful and because of his lack of any real detail or stat block you could easily say he's nearly all powerful. He has an even more powerful deity, he answers to, however. That's all we know about the overoverdeity though. That one could probably destroy everything in the universe if he really pleased.

[Fan]

If you dare to bring the leviathan to mechanus, Order will be destroyed, and armies of Slaadi will destroy us all. Then all planes will join the ever changing chaos of limbo to form a super plane. Then Limbo decides to bug the far realm, and Limbo is consumed.

Don't you know that when Mechanus is threatened it meshes together to form a Plane Sized Inevitable? That is what the cogs are for.:smallamused:

[Faulty]

I had an interesting idea. If there are Elder Evils, couldn't there be Elder Goods, too? I sort of want to create a semi-post-apocalyptic campaign setting where a fight between two Elder beings wrecked a world.

[Starbuck_II]

Ao is the Forgotten Realm's Overgod. He doesn't have a plane of existence I believe, and doesn't grant spells. He has no portfolio and the only people who worship him are tiny, splintered groups of cultists who get nothing out of it in return.


Not true, worshipping Ao keeps them from being spackled into the wall of faithless.
Remember all you need to do is worship a diety to be safe.

[Faulty]

I had no idea that Ao prevented you from being faithless, my bad. Don't they just go to the Fugue Plane if they're faithless? Man, I need to reread my FR books.

[Custos Sophiae]

There aren't any Elder Goods because, in general, the Elder Evils are not evil as the lower planes are evil. They are not driven by malice; they do not hunger for power or to destroy for destruction's sake. Their motives are utterly alien, incomprehensible to mortal men and greater gods alike, and vice versa.

By their own measure, they may be compassionate bringers of order, if they even have those concepts, but an incomprehensible order is indistinguishable from chaos and both kindness and cruelty require some understanding of what the target actually want. Without that common ground, these beings cannot be good, as any on the material plane understand it. Conversely, anything that is recognisably good is too homely to be eldritch.

Of course, this means the Elder Evils have no common cause. If two should meet, they will fight as like as not, and leave the world a post-apocalyptic wasteland, at best.

[Faulty]

I was thinking in generally something comparably old and powerful.

[hamishspence]

Deities & Demigods, written later the FRCS, has a slightly different take on it. in FRCS, it simply says "those with no patron deity go to the wall"

But in Deities and Demigods, it splits it- those with no patron deity just don't get picked up- raiding devils/demons usually grab them.

whereas those who "actively oppose the worship of the gods" like Planescape's Athar faction, go to The Wall.

[Faulty]

Remind me what The Wall is.

[chiasaur11]

Remind me what The Wall is.

A popular Pink Floyd song.

Those unaligned with gods have to listen to it for all eternity.

[Faulty]

Sounds like a good time.

[hamishspence]

Wall of the Faithless- souls are welded together in one great wall around the City of Judgement. Over a long period of time, their consciousness fades- basically- they are broken down and erased.

[mostlyharmful]

Sounds like a good time.

The first million years they were the worst and the second million they were the worst too. After that I went into a bit of a decline.

The Wall is a big sucky enclosure around Kelemvors gaff, the god of the dead uses Atheists to build his swanky digs.

[hamishspence]

its long-standing, the last two (Myrkul and Cyric) did the same.

Ironically, Kelemvor himself would have ended up in the wall, based on his in-life attitudes before he dies- this is mentioned when he takes to Jergal- the first deity of death, who gave up the job long ago to become minor agent of later ones, in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad

Kelemvor: "Where would you have put me- the home for the terminally confused?"
Jergal: "I would not have put you anywhere. Myrkul would have put you in his Wall of Bones, and who can say what Cyric would have done?"

[afroakuma]

You gotta love Jergal... back in the day he was practically an Elder Evil himself. Certainly he would rival modern Mystra in overall power - and his wouldn't be tied up in flocks of Chosen.

I mean, how awesomely full of pure doom would you have to be to pick up the title "Lord of the End of Everything"

[Belial_the_Leveler]

All things end. And for anything to begin, at least one other thing has to end.

So, the end of everything isn't evil. It's a pivotal part of the Cosmos.

[Faulty]

Jergal is so stodgey. :P

[Starbuck_II]

Remind me what The Wall is.

The Wall of the Faithless is the large wall that encircles the City of Judgement on the Fugue Plane, made of the souls of the faithless.

According to the 3rd edition FR campgin setting sourcebook, in which Kelemvor is the god of the dead, the wall is stll up. If you die, and have no faith, or if you betrayed your faith, then you have about a day to be ressurected or raised normally. After that, you have been brought to the City of the Dead, and that is bad.

If you are faithless, then you stay in the wall, and are decomposed by mold untill they are completly gone. Nothing can save them then. The False are punished according to their crimes. Some get realtivly easy punishment, some are punished horribly. All live withen the city. And a wish or miracle spell to bring them back may not do so. Even if you're deity agrees, they will have to negoiate with Kelemvor.

[Faulty]

Thanks for the elaboration.

[arguskos]

afro, about summoning abominations to battle the Elder Evils, two notes.

First: they don't fulfill the "unique" clause of gate, since there are more than a handful of each given abomination, so you can just ask for a "infernal abomination" and you'll get something that will obey you.

Second: if your DM is a **** and claims that they are immune to the compulsion (even though Gate does not have the compulsion or mind-affecting subtypes), you can rapidly explain to the critter that the Elder Evil over there is going to end all life/reality/whatever, including the abomination, and that for it's OWN sake, it should go whack the Evil till it dies. Most abominations, though they have no love for mortals, would prefer life to not-life, meaning they'll probably be interested in complying. You can even offer to pay it or perform a service for it in exchange for it's aid against whatever.

Really, it's not a perma-solution, but it's a good idea to try, since you can probably make it work. Frankly, you need the help against some of the Elder Evils (the Hulks are made easier with some extraplanar backup, as is Father Llymic and Atropus), so it's not a bad way to get some help. If the DM shoots this down, he's being a bastard on purpose. Elder Evils are hard enough w/o some backup, and given that the abominations will only help once or twice, MAAAYBE, it's a legit tactic.

Oh, and really, this is just a longer and meaner way of killing the PC's. You might as well just run them through the Tomb of Horrors at level 3 or something. It's more fair than dealing with ALL the Evils at once. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

First: they don't fulfill the "unique" clause of gate, since there are more than a handful of each given abomination, so you can just ask for a "infernal abomination" and you'll get something that will obey you.

There are only as many as the DM plants. The book notes that abominations should be tailored, and a great many of them cannot be summoned by your peevish mortal silliness, since they've been bound in deep holes for all eternity by stronger abjurations than you can hope to break.


Second: if your DM is a **** and claims that they are immune to the compulsion (even though Gate does not have the compulsion or mind-affecting subtypes)

If your player is a **** and tries to gate a hecatoncheires...


you can rapidly explain to the critter that the Elder Evil over there is going to end all life/reality/whatever, including the abomination, and that for it's OWN sake, it should go whack the Evil till it dies.

Why would it not just step back through the gate? And more pressingly, why would you be permitted time to speak? You're made of squishy, after all. Even if you were given time to speak, why should it not pulp you afterwards?


Really, it's not a perma-solution, but it's a good idea to try, since you can probably make it work. Frankly, you need the help against some of the Elder Evils (the Hulks are made easier with some extraplanar backup, as is Father Llymic and Atropus), so it's not a bad way to get some help. If the DM shoots this down, he's being a bastard on purpose. Elder Evils are hard enough w/o some backup, and given that the abominations will only help once or twice, MAAAYBE, it's a legit tactic.

I have no problem with extraplanar help; hell, I'll even field some against Pandorym on my players' behalf. What I have a problem with is specifically gating abominations. It is the DM's privilege to crack open the ELH first, not the players', and those things are profound apocalypse themselves. Summoning one, even to achieve your goals, will lead to terrible things happening to the world such that nothing will ever come near the rails again.

[Crel]

Yeah, they told me they hope to summon hecatoncheires to fry the elder evils. While I would let them, here is my view; they would come in (would probably require a caster level check to break the bonds holding them) and not be under command. however, my DM's ruling is that YOU CAN'T DEBATE WITH A GIANT TREE-THING! A lot of strange **** is going to happen in this campaign just for me to come up with a reasonable way to make the elder evils appear, but arguing with a giant evil tree is a little nuts. An Infernal, sure. Atropal, not really, cause he would prolly be under the control of Atropus, as an undead. So pointless. In my opinion, elder evils are higher up the food chain of the cosmos than abominations, which are basically crappy demigods, rather than the antithesis of the gods. Also (and correct me if I'm wrong) at least some of the abominations are in agreement with the elder evils i.e. destroying the world/multiverse.

Sorry 'bout the Io/Ao typo. Never heard of an overgod of Ao, what book(s) is he mentioned in? I've only read the Drizzt ones, FRCS, PGTF. thx

[Faulty]

He's in the FRCS, haha. I'm sure the FRPG as well.

[arguskos]

There are only as many as the DM plants. The book notes that abominations should be tailored, and a great many of them cannot be summoned by your peevish mortal silliness, since they've been bound in deep holes for all eternity by stronger abjurations than you can hope to break.
This is fair. It's more fair than just saying "no".


If your player is a **** and tries to gate a hecatoncheires...
I think that if you are fighting more than one Elder Evil at once, there's little to lose by summoning something scary and crazed.


Why would it not just step back through the gate? And more pressingly, why would you be permitted time to speak? You're made of squishy, after all. Even if you were given time to speak, why should it not pulp you afterwards?
There isn't a reason it shouldn't pulp you afterwards. You'll have to take your chances. Look, it's not a GOOD solution, but vs. Pandorym AND Atropus's minions at once, you might need the damn firepower.


I have no problem with extraplanar help; hell, I'll even field some against Pandorym on my players' behalf. What I have a problem with is specifically gating abominations. It is the DM's privilege to crack open the ELH first, not the players', and those things are profound apocalypse themselves. Summoning one, even to achieve your goals, will lead to terrible things happening to the world such that nothing will ever come near the rails again.
Yeah, it's not a great idea, but when you're up against the wall, it works. Concerning the rails, with all the Elder Evils happening in one go, calling a few abominations is better than the alternative.

Really, it's just what I would do as a player, judging that dealing with an infernal is better than dealing with, say, Pandorym. I'm fairly certain that I'm correct too. Infernals don't cause the heavens to cry, or the skies to rain blood, or whatnot, they're a much more straightforward sort of evil.

Given, I'd definitely say that perhaps a hecatoncheries is a bit... extreme. But, an infernal, anaxam, or dream larva seems more realistic and handleable, while still being powerful and useful against the Elder Evils.

[Olo Demonsbane]

By the rules "non-specific individual" you can gate in an avatar of a god with CL 30. It just says you can't summon a god, not his/her avatar....

Of course, if you suggested this, your DM would kill you with Dieties and Demigods :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

I think that if you are fighting more than one Elder Evil at once, there's little to lose by summoning something scary and crazed.

I'd never bring forth a phaethon, atropal or xixecal to contest some slow-moving eschatological geezers. Everything being frozen, dead or on fire and it being my fault is way worse.


There isn't a reason it shouldn't pulp you afterwards. You'll have to take your chances. Look, it's not a GOOD solution, but vs. Pandorym AND Atropus's minions at once, you might need the damn firepower.

I'm wondering why it wouldn't pulp you before.


Really, it's just what I would do as a player, judging that dealing with an infernal is better than dealing with, say, Pandorym. I'm fairly certain that I'm correct too. Infernals don't cause the heavens to cry, or the skies to rain blood, or whatnot, they're a much more straightforward sort of evil.

Sure, but that's infernals and Pandorym. The Hulks of Zoretha and a phaethon? Different story.


Given, I'd definitely say that perhaps a hecatoncheries is a bit... extreme.

Yes, a hecaton of cherries is extreme.


But, an infernal, anaxam, or dream larva seems more realistic and handleable, while still being powerful and useful against the Elder Evils.

Anaxims, definitely. That's probably a safe bet.

You likely can't find the infernal that wouldn't have more fun betraying you and siding with similar critters (Atropos' minion Gargauth, Sertrous and Zargon all originate in the Lower Planes).

[arguskos]

Really afro, the lesser abominations are pretty much a safe bet, and this is fair. Anaxims, chiciwecs (the bird ones), phanes, and possibly infernals are all good ideas to call for some back-up. The more powerful ones are good, if you absolutely HAVE to nuke something and it'd be worse to let it live.

Given, they aren't something you'd call upon frequently, but when you're really shafted and need the aid.

Just sayin', it's a decent tactic for aid in combat. Really, gate/planar binding is a great method of getting information too, it's not a tool to disregard, esp when dealing with the Elder Evils. :smallwink:

[Draken]

Phanes are not safe at all.

A phane is very dangerous, very dangerous indeed. And has the same CR as the strongest aspect of elder evil in the book. So it is not safe at all.

Sitck to Anaxims, they have a good damage output and are not innately evil.

[chiasaur11]

Phanes are not safe at all.

A phane is very dangerous, very dangerous indeed. And has the same CR as the strongest aspect of elder evil in the book. So it is not safe at all.

Sitck to Anaxims, they have a good damage output and are not innately evil.

So, wait.

These guys are terrifying, god killing abominations. The best players can hope for is to cage them again, or a Pyrrhic victory.

And yet, there are gateable creatures with higher CRs.

Something ain't right here.

[Ganurath]

So, wait.

These guys are terrifying, god killing abominations. The best players can hope for is to cage them again, or a Pyrrhic victory.

And yet, there are gateable creatures with higher CRs.

Something ain't right here.The CR system, most likely.

On the other hand, do any of those Gateable creatures want to destroy the Material Plane?

[Kaiyanwang]

Gate abomination could lead your party to ally with the Elder Evil to defeat the greatest threath (you).

Just imagine Kyuss yelling to you:

"Beast! Defiler! Your vile deeds are coming to an end!"

More seriously, stay away from the phane. Has too many dirty things. Fluff-wise, stay away from the infernal too.

Elemental based abomination could be safer, I guess. as ultima ratio...

Good idea the anaxim (assuming it's a good idea gate abominations :smalltongue:)

[Waspinator]

And what if the Elder Evils are actually the universe's way of ensuring it never gets ripe enough to draw his attention?

An interesting twist on how evil can be good...

Pity it's too esoteric to actually be useful in a campaign.

Ever seen Gurren Lagann?

In it, there's this guy called the Spiral King who is apparently the main villain for the first half of the show since he leads an army of beastmen (who are just what they sound like) that pilots giant robots and has forced almost all of humanity underground and only small populations of humans still exist. Without explaining too much, let me just say that when the heroes of the show defeat the guy they find out that although his methods needed a little work, his goal was a good one. There's a race of aliens out there that opposes the existence of creatures like humans and attempts to exterminate them if their populations ever grow too big. Guess what the Spiral King was trying to prevent and guess what happens after his defeat?

[Salt_Crow]

Ever seen Gurren Lagann?

...Guess what the Spiral King was trying to prevent and guess what happens after his defeat?

Umm... his cookie from going mouldy? :smallconfused:


Anyways, on-topic, I think abominations would be more likely to 'help' EE rather than foil their path of destruction. After all, "The eradication of life, death and existence itself is the goal of most abominations" (ELH pg 157).

So it'd be rather unusual for an abomination to voluntarily fight any elder evil at all, and even involuntary means would be 'against its nature'.

If it was Eberron however, you could probably count on the dragons of Argonessen or even the Lords of Dust if it comes down to that. But then again, a rakshasa rajah would be a far more dangerous foe than any Elder Evil in the book :smalltongue: