Wait a minute... why haven't we seen V use Time Stop before?

[Cizak]

I just found out... It looks like V hs had Time Stop ever since the beginning, because s/he says he has it in his spell-book here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html).

Why hven't V used it before? I know it's gotta be prepared or something (I don't play DnD), but I think it would be a good idea to prepare it every day because you don't know when it's gonna come in handy... for example s/he could have used it to escape the evil gnome druid and the trees... any ides on why V wouldn't have used Time Stop up until recently?

[Shades of Gray]

Even if she had it in her spellbook, she was not high enough level to cast it.

OR

As explained by the geekery thread, those last three VERY POWERFUL spells were just given as a joke, for V to test whether or not [Copyright] would ever say yes.

[AmberVael]

V hasn't been high enough level to cast it, perhaps? By the rules you can have spells in your spellbook that you can't actually use.

Alternately, (and in my opinion, the more likely scenario) V was just tossing out high level spell names because V wanted to just see if anything would change Zz'dtri's mind.

*gasp* I am teh ninja'd!

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

As the others said, V was just saying random names of spells to see if Zz'dtri would change his mind.

V couldn't possibly cast any of those because they're all 9th-level spells. If V was high enough level to cast those, Team Evil would already be eliminated.

[Cizak]

Ooh, okay! I didn't know you could have spells that you couldn't use. My bad, as I said, I'm not a DnD-player :smallsmile:

[AmberVael]

Ooh, okay! I didn't know you could have spells that you couldn't use. My bad, as I said, I'm not a DnD-player :smallsmile:

That's why we didn't say "lol ur teh stupid." :smalltongue:

It's not a rule that is very intuitive to someone learning about DnD, anyways.

[Ancalagon]

Timestop is a 9th level spell. To cast it, Vaarsuvius (the normal one, not the current boosted version) needs another four or so levels... and more when we saw him mentioning him it being in his spellbook (and I doubt it actually was in the spellbook at that time, he was just expressing his frustration that "Drizzt-Clone" did not want any spells traded).

[Undead Prince]

Ooh, okay! I didn't know you could have spells that you couldn't use. My bad, as I said, I'm not a DnD-player :smallsmile:

As all the previous guys said, V did not actually have the spells. He was clearly being sarcastic (notice his angry expression) and offered the names of some of the most powerful non-epic spells just to prove the point that Zzd'tri would not trade spells no matter what (i.e. is a selfish @$$hole).

And realistically, an unoptimised 8th level Wizard (or whatever level V started the adventure) a) wouldn't have access to a source of 9th level spells, b) would have had a lot of difficulty trying to copy them into his spellbook.

So no, V didn't have them and was just making a point with sarcasm.

And of course, the recent casting of Time Stop came from the splice.

[oxybe]

3rd ed D&D wizards can know a VAST array of spells. as long as they have empty spellbook pages (15gp/book), they can learn new spells. they can, however, only cast a certain amount each day, as determined by level + intelligence.

a TL:DR version of the way wizard magic works is that each spell takes up space in your head. with proper training you can hold a large volume of spells, as well as containing more and more powerful ones. when cast, the spell vanishes from your noggin. the strain of memorization and release is great enough that you need a full night's sleep (or trance in V's case) to properly clear your head to re-memorize your spells.

a 9th level spell, like time stop, requires a wizard of at least 17th level and a high intelligence, 19 (to cast a spell you need an int of 10+it's level). that means you need to be VERY powerful and have mental capabilities beyond those of mortal men (the maximum a level 1 human can have is 18 int). i believe it's been theorized that V is normally level 13, and thus able to cast level 7 spells, tops.

the splice gave V the powers of 2 epic level wizards and a sorceror (they play like wizards, only different). epic spellcasting (basically level 10 spells) requires 2 things: level 21 AND a minimum intelligence of 20. V's got 3 of the most intelligent people you'll probably ever hear of telling him how to destroy things. and giving him the ability to do so...

[Zevox]

i believe it's been theorized that V is normally level 13, and thus able to cast level 7 spells, tops.
Analysis of the number of spells V cast before making the deal for the Soul Splice pegged her minimum stats at level 14 with 22+ intelligence. At this point it can be assumed that she normally is not level 15 or higher, since we never saw her cast an 8th or 9th level spell until she got the Splice.

Zevox

[plainsfox]

the splice gave V the powers of 2 epic level wizards and a sorceror (they play like wizards, only different). epic spellcasting (basically level 10 spells) requires 2 things: level 21 AND a minimum intelligence of 20. V's got 3 of the most intelligent people you'll probably ever hear of telling him how to destroy things. and giving him the ability to do so...

Since Sorcerers act differently, V has two of the most intelligent and one of the most charming people we'll probably ever hear of ><

[FrankNorman]

3rd ed D&D wizards can know a VAST array of spells. as long as they have empty spellbook pages (15gp/book), they can learn new spells. they can, however, only cast a certain amount each day, as determined by level + intelligence.

a TL:DR version of the way wizard magic works is that each spell takes up space in your head. with proper training you can hold a large volume of spells, as well as containing more and more powerful ones. when cast, the spell vanishes from your noggin. the strain of memorization and release is great enough that you need a full night's sleep (or trance in V's case) to properly clear your head to re-memorize your spells.


So to be able to cast Disintegrate 3 times a day, V would have to memorize the spell 3 times over?
I don't mean to offend, but that sounds daft. Johnny Mnemonic daft. There are two obvious problems:

1) It confuses intelligence with memorization ability. By the mechanics posted above, the best kind of wizard (at least in terms of spellcasting ability) would be an idiot-savant.
2) Memory does not work like that. Short-term memory maybe, but anything you can still remember after a few hours of thinking about other things must have been moved to long-term storage. It amounts to saying the spells don't actually get memorized, but that the wizard is keeping the info by doing something equivalent to saying it over and over in their minds.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the spells to require the expenditure of some sort of energy, which takes time to recharge? (like the Mages and other spellcasters in WarCraft2)
Or - and better still - that to cast a spell, a wizard must not only know it, but have the components for it. And those have to be prepared anew once expended.
(I'm imagining someone each morning pouring gunpowder into little casings so as to be able to "cast" Fireball. Call this a "MacGuyver wizard")

[Fjolnir]

basically picture a wizard as being TRAINED to use magic, he doesn't have innate magical ability like a sorcerer so he must expend his effort to write the spells he knows into the magic using section of his brain, which then after he uses the spell becomes blank space, similar to brain trauma, the more intelligent a wizard is, the stronger a spell he can put into his brain, the reason a wizard must repeatedly memorise his spells is that for him spellcasting is not innate and requires effort to even keep the spells in his head, much less cast one

[CrimsonAngel]

Even if she had it in her spellbook, she was not high enough level to cast it.

OR

As explained by the geekery thread, those last three VERY POWERFUL spells were just given as a joke, for V to test whether or not [Copyright] would ever say yes.

Yes, notice Meteor sworm, also seen used by Xykon, an epic level sorcerer.

[Selene]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the spells to require the expenditure of some sort of energy, which takes time to recharge? (like the Mages and other spellcasters in WarCraft2)

Yes, but we can't go around doing that just because it "makes sense." (Sorry, Goblins moment.)



Or - and better still - that to cast a spell, a wizard must not only know it, but have the components for it. And those have to be prepared anew once expended.
(I'm imagining someone each morning pouring gunpowder into little casings so as to be able to "cast" Fireball. Call this a "MacGuyver wizard")

I think they already do need material components. At least, they did back when I played 1st ed. And the idea that Durkon needs diamonds to resurrect Roy suggests that they still do. *has only skimmed 3.x rules*

[oxybe]

So to be able to cast Disintegrate 3 times a day, V would have to memorize the spell 3 times over?
I don't mean to offend, but that sounds daft. Johnny Mnemonic daft. There are two obvious problems:

1) It confuses intelligence with memorization ability. By the mechanics posted above, the best kind of wizard (at least in terms of spellcasting ability) would be an idiot-savant.
2) Memory does not work like that. Short-term memory maybe, but anything you can still remember after a few hours of thinking about other things must have been moved to long-term storage. It amounts to saying the spells don't actually get memorized, but that the wizard is keeping the info by doing something equivalent to saying it over and over in their minds.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the spells to require the expenditure of some sort of energy, which takes time to recharge? (like the Mages and other spellcasters in WarCraft2)
Or - and better still - that to cast a spell, a wizard must not only know it, but have the components for it. And those have to be prepared anew once expended.
(I'm imagining someone each morning pouring gunpowder into little casings so as to be able to "cast" Fireball. Call this a "MacGuyver wizard")

remember that this is D&D so things work a little (read: a lot) different then they would in real life. now what a wizard does doesn't actually use "memory" even though the term is called memorization, it's more like memory in the computer term.

when the wizard wakes up in the morning the commit a large part of the spells in their "memory": the arcane glyphs/runes/sigils, the way the magic weaves with existance, ect... basically the wizard stores information in his "memory" for later use, generally activated via a command word/phrase like, say... "FIREBALL", "METEOR SWARM" or "TIME STOP", along with the intent to use it. after uttering the words, the spell is wiped from "memory". a good night's sleep allows you to clean your memory's cache, if you will.

the sorcerer however works differently. his magic is innate and is based off charisma, representing not just his force of personality but also how aware he is of his existence... indeed, a character with high charisma is attuned to himself and knows how to use his energy to influence his surroundings. unlike the wizard, who can change his repertoire of spells on a daily basis, the sorceror knows a more limited selection but are so innate to him that he can use them as often as he wishes, baring he has the energy to do so. if you've played FF1, you'll notice that the mages have W/X/Y/Z spell slots to use among their spells of level 1/2/3/4, that's pretty much how a sorcerer's spellcasting works except he has a larger pool of spells to choose from. a limited selection but the freedom to use them as he pleases.

the cleric and druid spellcasting is similar to the wizards, where they commit spells to memory in the morning, where instead of reading a book, they pray to their deity for their spells, unlike the wizard or sorcerer though, they know all spells on their lists by default.

a lot of spells have some material components, and indeed they do need to be readied for each use (Fireball, for example, has guano as it's material component). regretfully, in D&D one needs more then just having the proper reagents at hand to cast a spell.

in 4th edition D&D (OotS takes place in 3rd ed) all classes have abilities that are either "at-will" (can be used unlimited times per day, like "scorching burst" cause a column of flames, 15x15 feet, burning those inside it), "per encounter" (which basically means you need to take a breather between each use, like "burning hands" which scorches all enemies in a 25x25 area in front of you) and "daily" (which requires prolonged rest, like good old "fireball" which erupts at a distance and all within it's blast diameter of 35x35 are immolated).

in 3rd ed those spells would be different levels (1, 2 and 3 respectively). as your caster levels up, it gains the ability to use the lower levels spells more and more often (and usually with higher damage values), so while you might only be able to cast "scorching burst" 3 times a day at most, by the time you can learn & cast "fireball" 3 times per day, you might have over half a dozen uses of "scorching burst" and nearly as many uses of "burning hands", both dealing more damage then they did when you initially got them.

i guess this post went on longer then i initially wanted it to, but i hope it helps and doesn't confuse you too much. if you really want to look up the spellcasters, you can pick up the core books at your friendly local gaming store, amazon, ect... alternatively if you just want to look at the very wizard used by OotS www.d20srd.org is the bare-bones version of 3rd edition D&D. it contains pretty much all the rules you need to play, with some exceptions.

Edit: you need 5000 gold worth of diamonds, crushed, to cast the raise dead spell, which are destroyed in the process. that's pretty much why it's do damned difficult to get Roy back: it's costly and where are you going to get 5000 gold worth of diamonds...

[brilliantlight]

remember that this is D&D so things work a little (read: a lot) different then they would in real life. now what a wizard does doesn't actually use "memory" even though the term is called memorization, it's more like memory in the computer term.

when the wizard wakes up in the morning the commit a large part of the spells in their "memory": the arcane glyphs/runes/sigils, the way the magic weaves with existance, ect... basically the wizard stores information in his "memory" for later use, generally activated via a command word/phrase like, say... "FIREBALL", "METEOR SWARM" or "TIME STOP", along with the intent to use it. after uttering the words, the spell is wiped from "memory". a good night's sleep allows you to clean your memory's cache, if you will.

the sorcerer however works differently. his magic is innate and is based off charisma, representing not just his force of personality but also how aware he is of his existence... indeed, a character with high charisma is attuned to himself and knows how to use his energy to influence his surroundings. unlike the wizard, who can change his repertoire of spells on a daily basis, the sorceror knows a more limited selection but are so innate to him that he can use them as often as he wishes, baring he has the energy to do so. if you've played FF1, you'll notice that the mages have W/X/Y/Z spell slots to use among their spells of level 1/2/3/4, that's pretty much how a sorcerer's spellcasting works except he has a larger pool of spells to choose from. a limited selection but the freedom to use them as he pleases.

the cleric and druid spellcasting is similar to the wizards, where they commit spells to memory in the morning, where instead of reading a book, they pray to their deity for their spells, unlike the wizard or sorcerer though, they know all spells on their lists by default.

a lot of spells have some material components, and indeed they do need to be readied for each use (Fireball, for example, has guano as it's material component). regretfully, in D&D one needs more then just having the proper reagents at hand to cast a spell.

in 4th edition D&D (OotS takes place in 3rd ed) all classes have abilities that are either "at-will" (can be used unlimited times per day, like "scorching burst" cause a column of flames, 15x15 feet, burning those inside it), "per encounter" (which basically means you need to take a breather between each use, like "burning hands" which scorches all enemies in a 25x25 area in front of you) and "daily" (which requires prolonged rest, like good old "fireball" which erupts at a distance and all within it's blast diameter of 35x35 are immolated).

in 3rd ed those spells would be different levels (1, 2 and 3 respectively). as your caster levels up, it gains the ability to use the lower levels spells more and more often (and usually with higher damage values), so while you might only be able to cast "scorching burst" 3 times a day at most, by the time you can learn & cast "fireball" 3 times per day, you might have over half a dozen uses of "scorching burst" and nearly as many uses of "burning hands", both dealing more damage then they did when you initially got them.

i guess this post went on longer then i initially wanted it to, but i hope it helps and doesn't confuse you too much. if you really want to look up the spellcasters, you can pick up the core books at your friendly local gaming store, amazon, ect... alternatively if you just want to look at the very wizard used by OotS www.d20srd.org is the bare-bones version of 3rd edition D&D. it contains pretty much all the rules you need to play, with some exceptions.

Edit: you need 5000 gold worth of diamonds, crushed, to cast the raise dead spell, which are destroyed in the process. that's pretty much why it's do damned difficult to get Roy back: it's costly and where are you going to get 5000 gold worth of diamonds...

Which is one reason 4th edition sucks. The spell system can't converted to by the old system and a lot of good spells can be cast only once while a bunch of real sucky spells can be cast at will.

[oxybe]

truth be told, i prefer 4th ed over 3rd. having to hide behind a crossbow at lower levels after blowing my load then willingly holding back so the fighter-types don't feel unwanted made me a sad wizard.

the toning down of casters was needed IMO. especially since the X slots per day thing usually meant that a party's adventuring time was dependent on how fast the caster(s) is(are) blowing his(their) payload. if the caster could ration his spells, then they could go on for a long time. if he nova'd they had to risk going at 80-60% power, depending now how dependent they are on the caster.

as for the inability to convert to the old system... i'm quite happy they got rid of it and made all PCs work within the same framework. i could describe the benefits and downsides of the new system but it would put my past post to shame.

EDIT: let's not derail this thread with edition war

[Chronos]

You can always recognize the old 2nd edition players when they start talking about wizards memorizing spells. That was the terminology used in 2nd edition, but not in 3rd edition. The mechanics are basically the same, but 3rd edition just talks about wizards preparing spells, and says that the preparation is actually a part of the casting that can be done in advance. For spells with material components (which is over half of them, but not all), you probably could fluff this as spending time measuring out doses of them, but then you'd need to explain why the wizard can only have a certain number of fireball kits put together at once.

[oxybe]

wait... you mean they...

whips out 3.5 PHB

mumble mumble... a wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells... mumble mumble...

huh... i never noticed that. you'd think after 8 years of playing that class i would have noticed that you prepare and not memorize spells anymore...

EDIT: its the bat poop and sulfur. at low levels your tolerance for the smell is much less then that of a higher level wizard, who's nose has long nice lost it's ability to distinguish smells :P

[Dagren]

You can always recognize the old 2nd edition players when they start talking about wizards memorizing spells. That was the terminology used in 2nd edition, but not in 3rd edition. The mechanics are basically the same, but 3rd edition just talks about wizards preparing spells, and says that the preparation is actually a part of the casting that can be done in advance. For spells with material components (which is over half of them, but not all), you probably could fluff this as spending time measuring out doses of them, but then you'd need to explain why the wizard can only have a certain number of fireball kits put together at once.
I've always thought the "casting part of the spell in advance" quite neatly explains things like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html). The spell would then lay dormant in your mind until triggered by completing the casting. You can only keep so many spells like this. Some epic spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/contingentResurrection.htm) work a similar way but with a different trigger. That's my interpretation of the magic system, anyway.

[Knaight]

So to be able to cast Disintegrate 3 times a day, V would have to memorize the spell 3 times over?
I don't mean to offend, but that sounds daft. Johnny Mnemonic daft. There are two obvious problems:

Not memorize, prepare. Basically even combat spells take a long time to cast, a good 15 minutes. In the morning wizards will chant about 14 minutes and 57 seconds of the spell, leaving only the last 3 seconds. Wizards can only have so much energy expended like this, and high level wizards have more. Sorcerers, who don't have to prepare, can just open fire with whatever spell as often as they want, provided that they have enough energy left.

[FrankNorman]

Not memorize, prepare. Basically even combat spells take a long time to cast, a good 15 minutes. In the morning wizards will chant about 14 minutes and 57 seconds of the spell, leaving only the last 3 seconds. Wizards can only have so much energy expended like this, and high level wizards have more. Sorcerers, who don't have to prepare, can just open fire with whatever spell as often as they want, provided that they have enough energy left.

That actually makes a whole lot more sense.
So what happens to spells that a wizard prepares, but doesn't use that day?

[oxybe]

after a good night's rest a 3rd ed wizard can choose to just prepare new spells over the unused ones. it's best not to waste them in case you're attacked during the night or something comes up in the morning.

unlike 2nd ed... you actually had to use the spells if you wanted to free up that slot. and preparing them took 10 minutes per spell level for EACH spell.

now that was a time waster at higher levels...

[Volkov]

This is a little off topic but only a little, this is the explanation of the whole Each spell takes up a page of your spell book per spell level thing. You must write a very comprehensive history of the spell, detailing major uses of it, you must write down the proper way to cast it, and all things needed to cast it, preferably in draconic as the language is pretty well designed for being used in a spell book. But Qualith seems to be the best since all you have to write are a bunch of dashes. If you do not do this you might end up releasing Pandorym instead of casting gate.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

For plot purposes. Would THIS:
V uses time stop while fighting the druid. (S)he easily defeats the druid, kills Yovyok the insane kobald chasing Belkar, takes down Nale and Sabine, and rescues Roy's sister. Haley never kisses Nale, doesn't get her speech back, and we end up with, like, at least 23 less punchlines.
be a very good story?

[Snake-Aes]

For plot purposes. Would THIS:
V uses time stop while fighting the druid. (S)he easily defeats the druid, kills Yovyok the insane kobald chasing Belkar, takes down Nale and Sabine, and rescues Roy's sister. Haley never kisses Nale, doesn't get her speech back, and we end up with, like, at least 23 less punchlines.
be a very good story?

Well, all of it would not happen during a timestop.Odds are not even beating Leeky would be any better either, for he'd still survive almost anything Suvie can throw at him in that timespan.

[Volkov]

For plot purposes. Would THIS:
V uses time stop while fighting the druid. (S)he easily defeats the druid, kills Yovyok the insane kobald chasing Belkar, takes down Nale and Sabine, and rescues Roy's sister. Haley never kisses Nale, doesn't get her speech back, and we end up with, like, at least 23 less punchlines.
be a very good story?

If V was level 17 or above, which is needed to even cast time stop, the linear guild wouldn't have the guts to even think of attacking the Order if V was around. As he'd be able to turn their party into a pile of ashes, however in 3.5 time stop is not really worth it if your cannot cast conjuration spells. As summoning is one of the only direct ways to majorly affect the battlefield against foes over a certain level.

Then again boxing someone in with two to six walls of Iron is a timeless classic with time stop. No pun intended. The usual response is, "Wait when did these walls get here?"