The Paladin code

[Froogleyboy]

Could someone help me out? I need the paladins code for campaign so uh. . .
yeah.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What god does your paladin worship? Is this 3.5 or 4e? Clarifying the situation might allow us to offer better advice.

[Froogleyboy]

oh, I apologise. Its 3.5
He worship pelor

[Keld Denar]

Pelorites tend to be very benevalent. They tend to opt for the most peaceful solution to a problem. The only thing that they zealously crusade against is the undead.

So, on top of the standard stuff mentioned in the PHB under the paladin code (like honesty, piety, honor, yadda, yadda, yadda), a Pelorite paladin would go to great lengths to help those in need, even at great personal risk, and would vehemotly defend the living against the undead.

Praise the Sky Father!

[Tempest Fennac]

It may be wise to talk to the DM/player who's going to use the Paladin about what you /they personally expect from them (eg: if you were trying to rescue villagers from evil creatures who had been kidnapping people, I wouldn't class killing enemies who you KOed as evil due to how they could become a threat if they had buddies who could heal them, but if it was safe for you, and the town guards, I'd recommend handing them over for a trial*).

*If it wasn't safe, I wouldn't expect you to put yourself, your allies and innocents in danger because of the evil creature's rights. I know 1 person who disagrees with me on this issue, though.

[Seffbasilisk]

Do not injustice to another
Defend the weak & innocent
May truth & honor always guide you
Let courage find a life within
Stand up when no one else is willing
Act not in hatred or in spite
Be to this world as a perfect knight
Even if it means your life... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCZ00NYqjSY)

[Thane of Fife]

I strongly agree discussing it with your DM first, but here are some ideas:

I swear:
that I will be a light unto the world
that I will expose those evils which thrive in the darkness
that I will bring the light of hope where there is despair
that I will aid those in need where I am able, and find those who can where I cannot
that I will suffer not the undead to exist

[Hopeless]

My response would be;

Be more good than lawful,
Never forget the lawful part just forget about the stupid part,
Never forget you are supposed to inspire others with your actions,
And don't lose heart if your dm hasn't a clue about that last part.

[Tehnar]

In my campaign setting, Paladins are a organization (a bit of Templar and Space marine influence) and not tied to any gods. Here are their codes, thought they may be a bit setting specific.

Paladin code


Thou shall protect the weak, feed the hungry, heal the injured and cure the sick. Not all are fortunate as you, Paladin, and you must use your powers to help those less fortunate then you. This is kindness and it is your first shield against evil. For those that you do kindness to, shall do kindness onto others, and evil shall be gone from their hearts. This is the first sacred task.

Thou shall accept surrender and treat kindly any natural creature. There are those who are misguided, Paladin, and use their might against you. Once you have defeated them, Paladin, show them mercy, for even those who were once your enemies, might become your staunchest allies. This is the second sacred task.

Thou shall purge the undead, slay the abomination and destroy the demons. There are those, Paladin, who are beyond redemption, beyond mercy and beyond hope. They come into our world, intent on corruption and destruction. They must be purged root and branch, no quarter given nor received. This is the third sacred task.

Thou shall follow the laws of the land, so you can continue with the three sacred tasks. Your duties may take you, Paladin, to many strange lands, with many strange laws. You must learn those laws, Paladin, and obey them, for only in such a way you will be accepted as a member of that society. Then you are a outsider no longer, and can reach the people to teach them the better way. Let me make one thing clear, Paladin, should you ever have to chose between following those laws and the three sacred tasks, you shall follow the tasks first and the laws second.

Thou shall not associate with the wicked, nor use their methods, even in the name of the crusade against evil. Know, Paladin, that when thou gaze onto the abyss, the abyss gazes back at you. While wicked ways may seem easier, or may seem to be the only way, therein lies the path of corruption. Then your soul is in peril, for you may stray from our teachings and be lost to us. Carry on not with the wicked, make no use of their skills, lest you become familiar with them, to the horror of your eternal soul.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'd settle for using "Always defend the innocent, act with Honor and Kindness, and promote the ideals of your deity"(in that order).

For those who are promoting the death of all Undead, Demons, and such, what about good or neutral Undead/Demons? Killing them seems a path to insta-fall IMHO.

By the way, I think it should be required for any Paladin Player and DM to sit down and watch/read one "morally ambiguous work"(Watchmen, DS9 'In the Pale Moonlight', etc) and dsicuss it. If your morality is too different, maybe the player needs to pick another class.

[Starbuck_II]

Say this line tyo understand a Pelor Paladin:

In brightest day, in blackest night,
No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship evil's might,
Beware my power... Pelor's light!

(stolen from Green Lantern)

[Flickerdart]

For those who are promoting the death of all Undead, Demons, and such, what about good or neutral Undead/Demons? Killing them seems a path to insta-fall IMHO.
Nope. Undead are powered by Negative Energy, and their mere existence means there's less joy in the world, or something like that. It's all a bit convoluted. Demons have the [Evil] subtype, and there's only, like, one (Succubus paladin) that isn't evil. So unless you really want to make a Paladin player fall, he's ever going to meet one statistically.

[Shadowbane]

I fight for justice.
I fight for righteousness.
I fight for a cause greater than myself.
I am the upholder of light.
I am the vanquisher of darkness.
I purge the world of evil.
No need is to small.
No call I shall not answer.
My hands heal the wounded.
My blade casts judgement.
My words speak only truth.

I am the Holy Knight.

I am the Paladin.

[bobspldbckwrds]

personaly i enjoyed the paladin's code of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn in birthright, it was

Paladins of Cuiraécen follow a Code of Conduct and they lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a cowardly act, oppress a weak person or fail to defend a helpless one. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she act with valor (not retreat from a fair fight, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. These are the basic codes of conduct for Paladins of Cuiraécen, individual sects have varying interpretations of them and any paladin belonging to one will adjust his code of conduct to reflect that interpretation.

from birthright.net

[Graymayre]

Oh mighty Pelor

Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to always tell the difference.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Nope. Undead are powered by Negative Energy, and their mere existence means there's less joy in the world, or something like that. It's all a bit convoluted. Demons have the [Evil] subtype, and there's only, like, one (Succubus paladin) that isn't evil. So unless you really want to make a Paladin player fall, he's ever going to meet one statistically.So I assume in your game there are no fallen celestials, the Negative Energy Plane is Evil-Aligned, Ghosts are Always Evil, and Enervation and Inflict spells Have the Evil descriptor? Because all of that is implied by the houserules you mentioned.

[rampaging-poet]

For those who are promoting the death of all Undead, Demons, and such, what about good or neutral Undead/Demons? Killing them seems a path to insta-fall IMHO.

I think this part all depends on a couple of factors. For undead, is negative energy an inherently evil and destructive force that seeks to kill any living thing it encounters, or is it as neutral as the four elements? In the former case even neutral undead pose a threat to living things by their very existence, while in the latter undead have just as much choice in their actions as living creatures do.
Either way, Pelor doesn't like them, which is enough to get "destroy undead" onto the code of conduct for his Paladins. However, other deities might be willing leave Neutral and Good undead alone.

As for demons/devils/etc., they are inherently evil no matter how you slice it. They even have the [Evil] subtype to tell us so, and since they have that subtype, they are always considered evil even if they spend all their time defending the realm and giving food to orphans. The chances of a relapse into their natural habits are too high, and so they should be sent back to the lower planes where they belong.
Because of the [Evil] subtype, a Good or Neutral demon still falls under a Paladin's oath to destroy evil. Paladins of particularly tolerant churches may allow them to live, but would not associate with them.

Hmm, it seems that there were more replies while I was typing and I have been ninja'd.


the Wisdom to always tell the difference.
This is perfectly fine for field action where there's no time to ask for a second opinion, but very few Paladins will have as much Wisdom as the Clerics of their god. For anything really big (do I leave the evil artifact sealed here, or do I take it to be destroyed once and for all?) the Paladin should ask his superiors within the church what to do.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

As for demons/devils/etc., they are inherently evil no matter how you slice it. They even have the [Evil] subtype to tell us so, and since they have that subtype, they are always considered evil even if they spend all their time defending the realm and giving food to orphans. The chances of a relapse into their natural habits are too high, and so they should be sent back to the lower planes where they belong.
Because of the [Evil] subtype, a Good or Neutral demon still falls under a Paladin's oath to destroy evil. Paladins of particularly tolerant churches may allow them to live, but would not associate with them.Turn that around. Celestials have the [Good] subtype. Does that mean that a Celestial that goes around committing acts of wanton slaughter, raping and pillaging everything he can, is still inherently Good and should be supported by the Paladin? This is turning Alignment into a very Red v. Blue situation.

[SirSigfried]

I have the same question as the OP, except I wish to make a 3.5 Forgotten Realms follower of Red Knight.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh mighty Pelor

Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to always tell the difference.
The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference. - Code of Calvin. :smallbiggrin:

As for me, I use a variation on the oath of knighthood used in the Society for Creative Anachronism. I detailed a full knighting ceremony in the first chapter of one of the stories (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29422) I've posted on the board, but the summary oath is as follows:

"I here swear fealty and do homage to [insert object of fealty]; to ever be a good knight and true, reverent and generous, shield of the weak, obedient to my liege-lord [or deity, as appropriate], foremost in battle, courteous at all times, champion of the right and the good. Thus swear I, [name]."

The details of the ceremony leading up to the oath are different according to deity and order (while a knight of Torm, such as Gilchrist in the story, may be charged with never fleeing from the face of his foes, one of a more moderate - regarding valor - deity shouldn't have such a charge; also, one not of Torm's church would obviously not carry the Penance of Duty), but the structure of the oath, I feel, should remain largely unchanged, with perhaps a few variations (I either replace "foremost in battle" with "seeker of justice" or simply add the latter to the oath, depending on order, for paladins of Tyr).

Edit:
I have the same question as the OP, except I wish to make a 3.5 Forgotten Realms follower of Red Knight.
"I here swear fealty and do homage to [either the Red Knight or the paladin's nation, since followers of the Knight are often military officers]; to ever be a good knight and true, reverent and generous, shield of the weak, obedient to my liege-lord, ever prepared for battle, courteous at all times, champion of the right and the good. Thus swear I, [name]."

I replaced "foremost in" with "ever prepared for" in reference to battle because the most optimum strategy might not involve the paladin on the front line, which would make being there anyway a violation of the Red Knight's core dogma. As an added bonus, preparing for battle involves a plan.

[Tehnar]

I think those questions of higher morality (good demons, evil celestials) are dependant on two things:

a) the mood of the campaign, what the players and the DM decide it will be

b) the setting, what the DM decides it will be

Thus I think it is important for the DM and players to talk together before a campaign starts, to get to know the setting, and to decide the tone or mood of the campaign.


For example, in my campaign setting, the DnD cosmology as such does not exist. Elementals are part of the material plane, and anything else coming to the material plane is bad for the denizens of the material plane. Not bad only because the creatures of other planes are evil, but bad that their very presence on the material plane causes bad effects (like disease, crops failing, earthquakes, etc).The only difference between lower and upper planes is that ages ago humans and the upper planes fought a war to a stalemate, and then made a pact with the upper planes that they would not enter the material plane, but the gods could seek worshipers amongst the mortals.

TLDR; Aligment based discussion should allways include points of the campaign setting and/or the mood the players and the DM are striving for.

[Starbuck_II]

Turn that around. Celestials have the [Good] subtype. Does that mean that a Celestial that goes around committing acts of wanton slaughter, raping and pillaging everything he can, is still inherently Good and should be supported by the Paladin? This is turning Alignment into a very Red v. Blue situation.

Yes, a Murdering psychopathic Solar is [Good]. He will be CE likely too, but then will be affected as both good and evil: He will detect as good and evil.

[kamikasei]

For undead, is negative energy an inherently evil and destructive force that seeks to kill any living thing it encounters, or is it as neutral as the four elements?

This is indeed the question. But since actually manipulating negative energy via many spells does not carry the [Evil] descriptor, and ghosts powered by negative energy are not required to be evil, it would seem a stretch to say that the "inherently evil" interpretation holds up in core.


Either way, Pelor doesn't like them, which is enough to get "destroy undead" onto the code of conduct for his Paladins.
...
As for demons/devils/etc.,... they are always considered evil even if they spend all their time defending the realm and giving food to orphans...
Because of the [Evil] subtype, a Good or Neutral demon still falls under a Paladin's oath to destroy evil.

So it's acceptable for a paladin to kill/destroy good-aligned creatures who are doing good in the world, just because of their subtype? As Sstoopidtallkid points out, that leaches out all the meaning of "good" and "evil" and makes it just "my team vs. theirs" (with the addition that you're effectively beating up a guy on your team, who's scoring goals for you, because he's from the other team's country.

Seriously, if Pelor's code requires his paladins to destroy all undead indiscriminately regardless of their alignment, then it shouldn't be possible for him to have paladins - their code would compel them to do evil, if only under rare circumstances.


TLDR; Aligment based discussion should allways include points of the campaign setting and/or the mood the players and the DM are striving for.

This is very true. The problem is that there is a "default setting" and set of assumptions deriving from the core rules, but it's treated very inconsistently by them and leads to a lot of confusion.


Yes, a Murdering psychopathic Solar is [Good]. He will be CE likely too, but then will be affected as both good and evil: He will detect as good and evil.

[Good] != Good. That's kind of the point. An evil-aligned Solar will have the [Good] subtype, but it will be proper for a paladin to oppose him, just as a good-aligned Balor will have the [Evil] subtype, but it would be proper for a paladin to spare him.

[hamishspence]

Seeing as WOTC has already statted out a murdering Chaotic evil angel (planetar) with Good subtype in Elder Evils, agent of the Elder Evil Sertrous, for the party to oppose, I'm inclined to go with "alignment matters more than subtype"

Given that there is a race of Evil subtype Extraplanar Outsiders (cambions, in Expedition to the Demonweb pits) which have as much as 10% of their population being Neutral or Good, I suspect, again, that killing Evil subtype creatures is not automatically a requirement of paladins.

[Callos_DeTerran]

[Good] != Good. That's kind of the point. An evil-aligned Solar will have the [Good] subtype, but it will be proper for a paladin to oppose him, just as a good-aligned Balor will have the [Evil] subtype, but it would be proper for a paladin to spare him.

Oppose does not mean kill, neither does spare mean let go. Solars and balors are both immensely intelligent beings and understand the basic substance of good and evil better then we can. They know that the [Good] or [Evil] subtype means more then just their subtype, it means that they are (in part) made up of pure good or pure evil.

It WOULD be proper for a Paladin to oppose an evil-aligned Solar by foiling his plans, preventing the solar from committing more evil, and trying to redeem her/him because the Solar is a little bit of good incarnate and there will always be the chance for the Solar to convert back and atone. Of course sometimes the only way it'll be able to atone might be to die, but that's a different example and probably extremely rare.

By that same process a Balor that goes out every day to protect orphans, heal injured kittens, and help little ol' ladies across the street would still be made up of pure evil and chaos at the center of it's being. And with the same chance of the Solar 'backsliding' into Good there's the same chance the Balor backslides into Evil except that's much more disastrous then if a Solar turns good again. A paladin should spare the Balor and ensure the Balor never backslides. This could be as simple as constantly, and I do mean constantly, traveling with it and keeping it on the good and true path, it could be destroying the balor so it can never backslide again and remove the bit of evil that makes up the balor from the multiverse, or putting the balor into an un-escapable prison so even if it DOES backslide it can't act on it's regained evil instincts. Why do this? Because the balor itself would realize there is always a chance at backsliding as long as he/she/it is still a balor and if turns to the extremes of good as it was evil then it would want to be prevented from backsliding but considering it's a chaotic creature it wouldn't take the imprisonment choice which leaves...destruction and constant guidance.

[SmartAlec]

It's a harsh truth, but here it is: the Paladin Code of Conduct often only applies in Mortal matters, from the Gods' point of view. When it comes to dealing with Planars, everything breaks down.

Here's the thing. Planes are made of souls. When a person dies, their soul travels to the plane of their alignment, where they spend time as a petitioner. Eventually, they'll let go of their sense of self and merge with the Plane. That's why the idea of redemption is highly-valued by the Good beings; it's not just gaining a bit of matter for their own Plane, it's denying the Evil beings the same.

In the case of Fiends and Celestials, though, redemption means little in the grand cosmic war. Because they're formed of planar matter and cease to exist when they die, redeeming them isn't actually any different to the Plane than killing them. The good plane isn't getting anything out of it; a dead fiend is a dead fiend, they never become petitioners and they never merge with the Plane they're aligned to. You can redeem an Evil celestial or spare a Good fiend, but those beings who understand the nature of Planar mechanics - like Gods - don't much care. Besides, a good fiend has an eternity of time to potentially revert back to Evil - ten thousand years of good deeds isn't worth the hundred thousand years of evil that the Fiend may do once it gets bored of being Good. May as well err on the side of caution.

So, that's why the 'It's ok to kill Fiends' guideline exists. You can choose to apply the Paladin Code to Planars if you feel you should, but if you don't - and cut down good Fiends aplenty - you usually won't Fall for it.

[rampaging-poet]

This is indeed the question. But since actually manipulating negative energy via many spells does not carry the [Evil] descriptor, and ghosts powered by negative energy are not required to be evil, it would seem a stretch to say that the "inherently evil" interpretation holds up in core.

On the other hand, skeletons and zombies are Neutral Evil, despite being mindless and therefore incapable of deciding to be Evil. Some monsters were written with the assumption that Undead=Evil, and others with the assumption that Undead simply means "differently powered". You're right that "inherently evil" doesn't really hold up very well, especially since the Negative Energy Plane isn't evil-aligned, but some people apparently don't see it that way.


So it's acceptable for a paladin to kill/destroy good-aligned creatures who are doing good in the world, just because of their subtype? As Sstoopidtallkid points out, that leaches out all the meaning of "good" and "evil" and makes it just "my team vs. theirs" (with the addition that you're effectively beating up a guy on your team, who's scoring goals for you, because he's from the other team's country.

Seriously, if Pelor's code requires his paladins to destroy all undead indiscriminately regardless of their alignment, then it shouldn't be possible for him to have paladins - their code would compel them to do evil, if only under rare circumstances.

You're right. I misremembered the Paladin's code and thought is was better defined and more restrictive than it actually is. If my understanding is correct after re-reading the rules, the [Evil] subtype doesn't mean anything in the context of the Paladin code. There is something about not associating with evil creatures (which both the Evil Solar and the Good Balor are by RAW), but there don't seem to be any consequences for doing so.
Likewise, a Paladin isn't actually required to kill/destroy evil unless not doing so would be an evil act. Apparently I learn something new every day, though whether that actually means anything is debatable.

Also, I have no idea what I was thinking with the comment about Pelor not liking Undead. That'll teach me not to post before breakfast and a shower...