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NPCMook
2009-03-30, 09:52 PM
Playtest coming up on the 4/06

I can only speculate this is a different form of Multiclassing... So begin Speculation... till the 6th:smalltongue:

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-30, 10:00 PM
Didn't they already announce that it was a Monk Playtest they were releasing in April? I thought that was already confirmed somewhere, but I'm not a D&DI subscriber, so what do I know? :smalltongue:

holywhippet
2009-03-30, 10:04 PM
Just when I was thinking 4E had finally gotten away from 3E and the "abomination" builds which combine classes in ways that result in overpowered characters. Well, actually 4E might not have so much of a problem with it - there aren't as many things which will synergise in crazy ways.

Inyssius Tor
2009-03-30, 10:06 PM
... but I'm not a D&DI subscriber, so what do I know? :smalltongue:

I dunno, really. Can you click a link? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/calendar) :smallsmile:

Asbestos
2009-03-30, 10:08 PM
Perhaps it will be something akin to ye olde 2nd edition dual classing.

NPCMook
2009-03-30, 10:13 PM
Didn't they already announce that it was a Monk Playtest they were releasing in April? I thought that was already confirmed somewhere, but I'm not a D&DI subscriber, so what do I know? :smalltongue:

Monk is in May

@Asbestos: How did Dual Classing work in 2e? never played it.

RTGoodman
2009-03-30, 11:38 PM
I dunno, really. Can you click a link? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/calendar) :smallsmile:

Man, it's going to be a SWEET month for Insider. All kinds of goodies to look forward to - MM2 previews, Arcane Power stuff (before the release), dual-classing, etc.

I don't know what the 4E dual-classing thing is going to be, but there's another speculation thread over at ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/253422-ph3-dual-classing.html).

Actually, there's another one here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/253434-playtest-ph3-dual-classing.html), too.

TheOOB
2009-03-31, 03:42 AM
@Asbestos: How did Dual Classing work in 2e? never played it.

It's been a long time, but if I am correct a human(and only a human) can at some point past level 1 choose to dual class. This requires high attributes in both your first and second class, and starts you as a level 1 member of your second class, with none of the features of your first. Once you reach the level you where in your first class(or higher then it, cant remember), you regain all of the features of your old class, though you can never again advance in it.

If it sounds silly and unnecessarily complicated, that is because it is.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-31, 06:13 AM
IThis requires high attributes in both your first and second class, and starts you as a level 1 member of your second class, with none of the features of your first.

As I recall, you can use the features of your old class, but this carries a significant XP penalty, because falling back on your old tricks means you're not learning your new tricks very well.

The scores required were, IIRC, a 15 in the prime requisite your old class (e.g. str for fighters, int for wizards, two different scores for paladins and rangers) and 17 for your new class. This is hard to get because the standard rolling system back then was plain 3d6 (although alternatives to this were common, including point buy).

(edit) anyway, on the topic of dual classing as a concept (not its implementation ten years ago), I would love to be able to create e.g. a fighter/rogue hybrid in 4E; presently, the best I can do is a fighter with rogue splash, and even for that I have to wait eight levels to get more than one power swap feat. So I'm curious how they're going to accomplish that.

LibraryOgre
2009-03-31, 09:59 AM
As I recall, you can use the features of your old class, but this carries a significant XP penalty, because falling back on your old tricks means you're not learning your new tricks very well.

The scores required were, IIRC, a 15 in the prime requisite your old class (e.g. str for fighters, int for wizards, two different scores for paladins and rangers) and 17 for your new class. This is hard to get because the standard rolling system back then was plain 3d6 (although alternatives to this were common, including point buy).


The standard rolling system hasn't been 3d6 since at least Rules Cyclopedia. At worst, it was presented as one of several.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-31, 10:37 AM
The only good reason to duel class in 2e was you are the only survivor of what would otherwise been a TPK, and everyone else is rolling up new characters, so you just start over with the same one, and then at somepoint down the road BOOM! you have a massive jump in power. Example your a lvl 6 Cleric with decent INT. the rest of your party dies, so you decide that you want to learn to be a wizard. For the first 5 lvls you act like a normal wizard of your lvl, and then when you ding lvl6 you explode into Mystic Theurge Happiness. Though I suppose that if you have an all human party you could have everyone do it at a certain point to take some low lvl challenges again, and when you get back to where you were you gain a group wide powerspike. Actually that would not be a bad Idea in 3.5. You have every one go back to first lvl, and when the reach the point that they stopped at before, instant gestalt.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-31, 10:54 AM
Lord, I hope it's not like 2E Dual Classing! Since I happen to have my AD&D PHB on hand...

(1) Be a Human, with 15+ in the Prime Score of his base class, and 17+ in the Prime Score of the secondary class.

(2) Any time after 2nd level he can switch from his primary class to a secondary class. His XP score goes to 0 and he starts as a 1st level member of his secondary class (though HP, HD and percentile strength is not lost).

(3) He now adventures as a member of the second class, and gains XP as normal. He can use proficiencies or abilities from his old class, but if he does, he gains no XP for that encounter and half XP for the rest of the adventure.

Now, for the payoff!

(4) When the character becomes a higher level in his second class than he was in his primary class, he regains access to all the powers he had in his primary class. He cannot gain any more levels in his primary class, but he can keep adventuring as a member of his secondary class.

Fun, no? :smalltongue:

Asbestos
2009-03-31, 12:08 PM
If it sounds silly and unnecessarily complicated, that is because it is.

Just like the rest of AD&D. Ba-zing!

Anyway, my serious predictions on this...

1. There will be no restrictions as to what classes you may dual class between. For instance, they could have restrictions based on power source, role, or primary stat, but I seriously doubt this will be the case. This of course will make some class combinations far more optimal than others.

2. Dual Class characters will not be able to take standard multiclass feats.

3. Dual Classing will start at 1st level.

4. Dual Class classes will be toned down versions of standard classes. By this I mean it will be similar to multiclassing in that the possible features gained from the other class will be defined, there will be limited picking and choosing of class features.

5. Dual Class characters will possess some, but not all, of the features of the classes they are fiddling around with. As mentioned above, the available options will be defined. This will prevent people from dual classing with strikers and taking both damage enhancing features (Quarry + Sneak Attack) or dual classing leaders and having tons of uses of healing abilities per encounter.

6. This will be difficult to balance.

7. It will (potentially) allow for the realization of more varied character concepts.

8. You will start with one at-will from one class and one from the other; humans will get to pick which class their third at-will will come from.

9. Power Possibilities:
a. You will get to pick and choose from both class lists at every level with no minimum amount from a specific class required.
b. You will have to alternate between classes, eventually maintaining a minimum number of powers from each class.

10. You will not gain build specific class features.

11. The playtest will be certainly be unbalanced.

----------------

10 kind of saddens me because I will have to multiclass as a ranger in order to have a druid-type character with an animal companion. At least until Primal Power comes out and possibly adds that back in.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-31, 01:51 PM
I am thinking that it might be about time to tryout my Ideas
Fighter/Avenger = what I will play (mark + Oath = WIN)
SwordMage/Avenger = MAD, but with the mark that teleports you, you get free bamf to you target, and free
Pally/Avenger = super melee divine hatred
Artful Dodging Feylock = Bamf, shift, Hide, profit.
Rogue/Ranger all dex, range and melee hybrid off Martial Damage Doom.
Wizard/Warlord = Wizlord.
Wizard/Warlock = Wizlock, the control master.
warlord/warlock = Locklord, You git de buff, and you git debuff
Fighter/Swordmage = Amazing if marks get Combined
Wizard/Swordmage = Wizard of the spiral tower @ lvl1
Wizard/Cleric = Classic Mystic Theurge, will be good fun.
Avenger/Rogue = MAD, but accurate precision damage FTW.

Actually Avenger + anything is the win, due to insane accuracy.

Jayabalard
2009-03-31, 02:32 PM
The standard rolling system hasn't been 3d6 since at least Rules Cyclopedia. At worst, it was presented as one of several.He's talking about 2e, which pre-dates the Rules Cyclopedia.

I don't recall seeing any officially suggested alternate rolling methods until Unearthed Arcana, and I think that was in a DM section of that book rather than a player section.

Since this doesn't necessarily jibe with some other people's memories on the subject, and since there were multiple minor revisions of the 1e DM Manual, I'm kind of curious if some of the printings may have included the alternate rolling methods while others did not.

LibraryOgre
2009-03-31, 04:15 PM
He's talking about 2e, which pre-dates the Rules Cyclopedia.

And, yet, it wasn't the default in 2e, either... just the first of several suggested.


I don't recall seeing any officially suggested alternate rolling methods until Unearthed Arcana, and I think that was in a DM section of that book rather than a player section.

In the 1st edition DMG, there's several listed. The PH just tells you to generate, and says that if you don't have 2 15s, then the character's probably not going to be fun.


Since this doesn't necessarily jibe with some other people's memories on the subject, and since there were multiple minor revisions of the 1e DM Manual, I'm kind of curious if some of the printings may have included the alternate rolling methods while others did not.

I'll check my printings and page numbers when I get home.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-31, 04:52 PM
And, yet, it wasn't the default in 2e, either... just the first of several suggested.

That's essentially what the word "default" means :smallbiggrin:

NPCMook
2009-03-31, 07:09 PM
From the sounds of 2e's way of Dual Classing, it seems like Dual Classing might be a Paragon thing, You level 1 class to 10, and then at level 11 instead of taking a Paragon Path, you begin as a level 1 in your new class until level 21 where you gain an Epic Destiny

You'd lose your class features from your First class, and the features you would normally get from a Paragon Path are your Class Features for your new class

Draz74
2009-03-31, 07:41 PM
I wonder if this is going to borrow heavily from 3e's popular Gestalt mechanics?

Behold_the_Void
2009-03-31, 08:02 PM
From the sounds of 2e's way of Dual Classing, it seems like Dual Classing might be a Paragon thing, You level 1 class to 10, and then at level 11 instead of taking a Paragon Path, you begin as a level 1 in your new class until level 21 where you gain an Epic Destiny

You'd lose your class features from your First class, and the features you would normally get from a Paragon Path are your Class Features for your new class

I don't see this happening. I'll bet the only resemblance this will have to 2e's version is the name and the fact that it involves two classes.

holywhippet
2009-04-01, 07:11 PM
From the sounds of 2e's way of Dual Classing, it seems like Dual Classing might be a Paragon thing, You level 1 class to 10, and then at level 11 instead of taking a Paragon Path, you begin as a level 1 in your new class until level 21 where you gain an Epic Destiny

You'd lose your class features from your First class, and the features you would normally get from a Paragon Path are your Class Features for your new class

That sounds a lot like Paragon multiclassing which was covered in PHB 1. It's on page 209 if you want to check.

NPCMook
2009-04-05, 11:08 PM
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090406 Article is up

EDIT: Dual Classing seems to be 4e's version of Gestalt, you get an at-will from each of your classes, you can still Multiclass, just not into one of the classes you are. You also use an Altered version of the class, you gain far less amounts of Features(you have to use feats to gain them back). When I first read it I thought you'd be getting massive amounts of HP, but since you are using Altered class entries you gain about the normal amount.

PHB 3 is going to be pretty big with having to cover a whole section for FR, and Eberron classes along with PHB 1 and 2's classes. Only 2 more weeks and we get a playtest of a PHB 3 race... yay!

charl
2009-04-05, 11:30 PM
Any subscribers who can tell us how cool or uncool the system is? :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-05, 11:41 PM
Ugh, I hope that the teaser text isn't indicative of the real mechanics:

Like the multiclass feats introduced in the Player's Handbook, these rules let you reflect a more varied array of character abilities than traditional classes do. Whether you’re doing this to reflect your character's elaborate backstory, to combine different mechanical elements to create a potent new combination, or to fill out a party that needs just a little something extra, the end result is the same: Your hybrid character gives up depth of ability in exchange for greater flexibility.

Good Lord! They're going to re-create the same power-combos (and dip classes!) from 3E and run into the same darn problem!

:smallannoyed: Well, hopefully a DDI subscriber can prove me wrong on that.

Asbestos
2009-04-05, 11:45 PM
Think that the armor restriction is a bit rough. Not sure how to alter it, allowing all the armor/shield profs of both classes would probably be too much, but allowing only those that both classes has really gimps some combos hard.

Anyone seeing any particularly useful combos?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-05, 11:51 PM
Think that the armor restriction is a bit rough. Not sure how to alter it, allowing all the armor/shield profs of both classes would probably be too much, but allowing only those that both classes has really gimps some combos hard.

Anyone seeing any particularly useful combos?

It's not that bad, really. Now, I don't have DDI, but using basic MC logic you can make a STR Cleric/Fighter (up to Chain, no shield) and then pop a feat for Scale and go 2H - bam! If the weapons are set up the same way, then you blow a Feat on some ultimate AV weapon and be done with it.

All this stops is the sort of cheap MC stuff which had people taking a dip in Fighter to become proficient with everything, everywhere. Remember that in 4E there aren't that many types of armor, and classes with High INT/DEX don't really want to use heavy armor anyhow. A few feats and you're done :smallsmile:

Asbestos
2009-04-05, 11:54 PM
Good Lord! They're going to re-create the same power-combos (and dip classes!) from 3E and run into the same darn problem!

Well, it isn't a dip at all. Really all you're gaining is the ability to take powers from each class. You can spend feats to gain class features from either class, so long as you already have that feature or the hybrid version. That last part is the kicker. For instance, a hybrid rogue can get Rogue Weapon Talent, but they can still only use their Sneak Attack with Rogue powers. The biggest bonus I can see is that if both of your hybrid classes use implements, you can use any of those implements for any of your powers. Seeing this, I at first though that a Paladin/Warlock might be pretty good since no longer do they have to whip out a rod to cast warlock spells. But then I recalled that they'd only start with leather armor, no shields, no warlock pact, no shadow walk, a far less potent form of divine challenge, no lay on hands, no channel divinity powers, and a curse that only works with warlock powers.


Edit: Because of the extra feat and the extra at-will, my money is on humans being the best choice for dual classed characters (that share the same primary ability ideally)

Oh, and unlike armor, you gain all the weapons of both classes.

NPCMook
2009-04-05, 11:59 PM
Basically its pretty kind of level dipping, A Rogue/Fighter gains Sneak attack and Combat Challenge, but they can only Sneak attack when using Rogue powers, and can only Challenge when using a fighter Power, so still no Ranged Fighter Builds :smalltongue: As I said its like Gestalt in 3.5, only not as powerful; you only gain the proficiencies that each class shares, so a Paladin/Rogue only gains access to Cloth and Leather Armor, and the same thing goes for the weapons. They gain only the class features that contain the "Hybrid Keyword" So they gain significantly less Class Features, they may take a special feat ONCE that allows them to gain access to a Class feature they would gain as being just a single class.

Skills, you only gain three, unless other wise stated in the class list, no free skills.

Multiclassing still works the same, except you can not multiclass in to one of your classes.

You of course qualify for feats that require the class, So a Rogue/Fighter qualifies for all Rogue Feats, and all Fighter Feats

Powers, you gain 1 at-will from each class(2 total, Humans get to pick their third from either), Half-Elves pick their power from any class except the ones they are dual classing in. Encounters and Dailies may be taken from either class list.

Starting stats, you add your starting HP together then your Con score, When you level up you add the HP gained from each class, and Healing Surges you add from each class and add your Con Mod(I know this sounds like a lot, but you use an altered class entry for the Hybrid) Class defenses Stack, so if both classes give a +1 to Fort, you gain a +2 to Fort.

Overall nothing to over powering(yet) Its a nice alternative to building a character. They only showed PHB 1 classes and the Swordmage.

JackMage666
2009-04-05, 11:59 PM
It might be a power creep, if you pick your power selections well enough.

Overall, though, it's a really good alternative to multiclassing. I think it's what multiclassing should be in 4e - You basically pick two classes, which are weaker than the base class (missing a few abilities, and might have others tuned down.), combine them, and then cherry pick powers from both classes (and certain class features only work with that classes powers). It's nice, seems like it'd be fun, but it's not throwing any huge red flags here.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-06, 12:01 AM
Well, it isn't a dip at all. Really all you're gaining is the ability to take powers from each class. You can spend feats to gain class features from either class, so long as you already have that feature or the hybrid version. That last part is the kicker. For instance, a hybrid rogue can get Rogue Weapon Talent, but they can still only use their Sneak Attack with Rogue powers. The biggest bonus I can see is that if both of your hybrid classes use implements, you can use any of those implements for any of your powers. Seeing this, I at first though that a Paladin/Warlock might be pretty good since no longer do they have to whip out a rod to cast warlock spells. But then I recalled that they'd only start with leather armor, no shields, no warlock pact, no shadow walk, a far less potent form of divine challenge, no lay on hands, no channel divinity powers, and a curse that only works with warlock powers.

Over on CharOp they were already talking about the brokeness you could make with just the Half-Elven Paragon Feat - I'd imagine that would be like this, but cranked up to 11.

Here are some good synergies:
Feylock-Artful Rogue (Shadow Walk + Ghostly Stride = cheap invisibility)
Dump INT for DEX and you have a winner!

TacLord-Fighter (Ultimate Battlefield Control)
Now you're just a TacLord with better smacking ability. You'll never miss your Heavy Armors.

STRadin-Fighter
Fills the gaps in STR Paladin powers and grants a little more area defense.

TWF Ranger - Brutal Rogue
Daggermaster with Twin Strike? Yes, please!

Now, I've not seen all the restrictions, but all of these combos minimize weapon/armor losses. Hmm, a TacLord-Ranger would also work well under that guideline...

erikun
2009-04-06, 12:31 AM
Didn't they specifically say that you can't use one class's abilities with another's powers? So no Daggermaster bonus to Twin Strike... maybe.

Well, here's what I'm seeing possible.

Fighter/Warden: Mark everyone around you, then Combat Superiority to keep them there.

Taclord/Wizard: Commander's Strike is the only Warlord power you really need - after that, you just use your large INT to grant initiative bonuses (Combat Leader + Combat Commander feat), bonus to-hit (Tactical Presence), and bonus to damage (Tactical Assault feat).

Swordmage/Avenger: If I read that right, it's a +6 AC while you're wielding a sword in light armor. Yikes.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-06, 12:31 AM
Hm, let's see. For attack powers, it works best if you pick two classes with the same prime ability score. On the other hand, for utility powers, that is pretty much irrelevant. For instance, care to boost your AC? Dip into Wizard to grab the Shield spell.

There are a few powers that are crazy good, to the point of requiring errata as soon as WOTC actually realizes that. For instance, warlord/6 has Guileful Switch, which basically hands out extra turns for free. Of course, you could already obtain those at the cost of two multiclass feats. But now, you can also grab them much earlier (because the MC feats have level prereqs) and don't require the ability scores.

And, of course, there are a few at-wills that are crazy good, most notably Twin Strike and Righteous Brand. Most defender or striker builds can be improved by picking up the former, most leader builds by the latter.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-06, 12:39 AM
Fighter/Warden: Mark everyone around you, then Combat Superiority to keep them there.

Unless they shift away - remember that Combat Challenge only works 1/round (as an Immediate Action). Still, that is a very handy combo.

Colmarr
2009-04-06, 12:40 AM
I honestly don't see this going anywhere, because it's a massive work load for very little benefit.

I mean, at the very least, if they press on with dual-classing as an idea, WotC needs to design a Hybrid class for each and every class they create. That's an awful lot of work to be taking on.

Personally, I think they should just revisit the multiclass feats so they're not so feat-intensive, and give paragon multiclassing a bit of a boost so that it's competitive with paragon paths.

There's nothing wrong with the current system, and the new one is way too complex. Half this plus half that, and have to have one of each of this and that etc. Bah!, I say...

JackMage666
2009-04-06, 12:40 AM
Didn't they specifically say that you can't use one class's abilities with another's powers? So no Daggermaster bonus to Twin Strike... maybe.
That should be legal, considering it's a Prestige Class, not the Dual-Class.


Fighter/Warden: Mark everyone around you, then Combat Superiority to keep them there.
As of right now, they haven't touched Warden, only the PHB classes and the Swordmage. And you need a feat to get Combat Superiority (and you can only mark things if you use Fighter Powers from the Hybrid class.)


Taclord/Wizard: Commander's Strike is the only Warlord power you really need - after that, you just use your large INT to grant initiative bonuses (Combat Leader + Combat Commander feat), bonus to-hit (Tactical Presence), and bonus to damage (Tactical Assault feat).
You don't get all the class features, unless you spend feats on them. In fact, the only Wizard class feature you get is Cantrips, and the only Warlord features you get is a toned down Inspiring Word and Combat Leader.


Swordmage/Avenger: If I read that right, it's a +6 AC while you're wielding a sword in light armor. Yikes.
You could, yes. But you'd need to spend a feat on both Swordmage Warding and the Avenger armor bonus, most likely. As well as feats on the light armor proficiencies (and the Avenger Hybrid isn't out yet.). As of right now, the Swordmage Aegis functions like the Oath of Emnity (1/encounter, and can be regained when your target dies.) so it'd be pretty fitting, in all honesty. You don't even get the special Aegis powers, from my understanding - So it's pretty much just Marking the opponent.

To summarize - Dual Classing is cool, and flavorful, but you need to work to get overpowered. And feats RULE for it. In other word, SAD Human Hybrids will be the best at Dual Classing.

Asbestos
2009-04-06, 12:42 AM
Here are some good synergies:
Feylock-Artful Rogue (Shadow Walk + Ghostly Stride = cheap invisibility)
Dump INT for DEX and you have a winner!

What's ghostly stride? Btw, you'll need to spend a feat to get Shadow Walk... or the Fey Pact Boon... or the Artful Dodger feature... and there is no evidence you can get this feat more than once (thank goodness, because if you could, then it'd be overpowered as heck.)



TacLord-Fighter (Ultimate Battlefield Control)
Now you're just a TacLord with better smacking ability. You'll never miss your Heavy Armors.
Not sure about the viability here... would need to spend a feat to bother being a 'taclord' since you don't start with that feature.



STRadin-Fighter
Fills the gaps in STR Paladin powers and grants a little more area defense.

And no lay on hands, no fighter class features, can only mark with fighter powers and the super-weak version of divine challenge, no channel divinity, etc etc. Really, its best to just be a fighter or paladin here.


TWF Ranger - Brutal Rogue
Daggermaster with Twin Strike? Yes, please!
This... might actually be good. But you might want to spend a feat on your rogue weapon talent... which would mean no brutal scoundrel... or you could get brutal scoundrel and no weapon talent... and you can only sneak attack with rogue powers and only quarry with ranger powers... so no sneak attacking with twin-strike.


I'm just not seeing anything overpowered or even anything but underpowered, kinda weaksauce IMO.

NPCMook
2009-04-06, 12:46 AM
Swordmage/Avenger: If I read that right, it's a +6 AC while you're wielding a sword in light armor. Yikes.

No, you read this wrong, a Swordmage/Avenger doesn't gain the bonus AC for having an Empty Off-hand, They'd have to spend their Hybrid Talent Feat on it

@Oracle: I don't know if those work, but from the way people described them, they are taking the Talent Feat Twice.

Also Fighter/Rogue with Tempest Technique.

@Kurald: Guileful Switch is awesome, but its an Encounter, so its okay, so once an Encounter, you can attack(its only a Minor Action), and then immediately let an ally take his full turn, and then you swap initiatives.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-06, 12:49 AM
What's ghostly stride? Btw, you'll need to spend a feat to get Shadow Walk... or the Fey Pact Boon... or the Artful Dodger feature... and there is no evidence you can get this feat more than once (thank goodness, because if you could, then it'd be overpowered as heck.)

This is a variant I call the Shadow Thief. Basically you start as a Warlock to get Shadow Walk (gain Concealment until the end of your next turn if you move at least 3 squares) and then take the 2nd level Rogue Utility "Ghostly Stride" which ignores movement-based Stealth penalties.

Step 1: Hide behind Superior Cover
Step 2: Walk 3 steps behind said cover to gain mobile Concealment.
Step 3: Continue walking at full speed across open space.

Since you are concealed, you maintain Hiding, and by avoiding the -5 penalty for moving more than 2 steps per round you can remain pretty darn hidden for a long time.

Now, under MC rules you have to be at least Level 8 to pull it off. But, if you can get Shadow Walk as a Dual Class Warlock-Rogue and then pick up the 2nd level Utility at 2nd level, it becomes a much more powerful combo.

As far as I can see, this is totally RAW legal, which is really funny :smalltongue:

EDIT:
The Daggermaster-Ranger doesn't actually require much of anything. Here's how it works:
(1) Arm your PC with 2 Daggers & Twin Strike
(2) Get the Daggermaster PP for re-rolls to hit (for AP) and (more importantly) 18-20 Crit Range on Daggers.
(3) Twin Strike your heart out.

This works best if Rogue Utility Powers can still affect you while Twin Striking - Meditation of the Blade turns your daggers into d6 weapons. Make 'em Vicious Daggers and you are the belle of the ball :smallamused:

For extra lulz, you can take Ranged Ranger powers when you get magic daggers to take advantage of the high rate of fire.

Now yes, you can build this with regular multiclassing, but getting access to Rogue Weapon Talent and some of the nicer Rogue Powers can really make this worthwhile.

EDIT II:
For the record, I am just pulling these out of thin air (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20071109.html) since I don't have DDI. These are just some of the wacky MC combos that I've played with from time to time that could be greatly enhanced by Dual Classing. With any luck, WotC saw these too and designed Dual Classing to prevent them - which I will find out by posting outrageous builds and being told how they can't work :smalltongue:

Asbestos
2009-04-06, 12:54 AM
@Oracle: I don't know if those work, but from the way people described them, they are taking the Talent Feat Twice.
Which, I do not believe you can. This is probably because it'd create some unbalanced insanity (taking all the Fighter class features for instance)



Edit:
@Oracle Hunter: Ah.. I see what you mean now. Yes, that combo could be done at level 2 with a dual class character but they'd need to spend their Hybrid Talent feat on Shadow Walk. They'd be giving up every other rogue/warlock feature to pull it off; could only SA with rogue powers and could only deal curse damage with Warlock powers... Though, so long as cover exists, they could walk around in stealth.

NPCMook
2009-04-06, 12:58 AM
Yes, you can only take the Talent Feat once. The feat doesn't have any extra Special text saying you can take it more than once, so it falls under the general feats rule, of taking it only once.

TheOOB
2009-04-06, 12:59 AM
I'll have to see the full version before I judge it, but it sounds like they know what they are doing. There isn't too much brokeness you could get here that you couldn't get with feat multiclassing.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-06, 01:41 AM
@Kurald: Guileful Switch is awesome, but its an Encounter, so its okay, so once an Encounter, you can attack(its only a Minor Action), and then immediately let an ally take his full turn, and then you swap initiatives.
No, it's not really okay. It means that every encounter, during the first turn of the encounter, your strongest party member gets to act twice (or thrice if he uses an action point). Have you seen what, say, a wizard can do to your opposition in one turn? Say, by dropping a sleep spell to the left and a color spray to the right. Oops, that cripples most of the opposition before the combat has even started. Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic so I'll fork off a new thread.

I agree with OOB that the overpowered powers aren't the problem, since you can already get those with regular multiclassing. But there are many class features that would look great on another class.

TheOOB
2009-04-06, 02:30 AM
I like anything that gives you new character options. I look forward to my paladin/sorcerer hybrid.

Asbestos
2009-04-06, 03:40 AM
Just thought of a potentially decent combo...

Swordmage (Aegis of Shielding) and Warlock (Infernal Pact gained via Hybrid Talent feat)

Mark an opponent with Aegis of Shielding, curse it, whittle it down as it does reduced damage to allies, gain hp when it dies, regain use of Aegis, rinse, repeat.

YPU
2009-04-06, 02:56 PM
That is a good combination, but not a particularly broken one, as far as I can see. You know, I cant believe I am saying this, but thus far the level of brokenness I quite low, for a playtest article no less. I am hopeful. (bad idea, I know)

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-06, 03:20 PM
@Oracle Hunter: Ah.. I see what you mean now. Yes, that combo could be done at level 2 with a dual class character but they'd need to spend their Hybrid Talent feat on Shadow Walk. They'd be giving up every other rogue/warlock feature to pull it off; could only SA with rogue powers and could only deal curse damage with Warlock powers... Though, so long as cover exists, they could walk around in stealth.

Well, you could instead take mainly Rogue powers and cherry pick Shadow Walk from the Warlock section, and some other choice Utilities. I mean, what features are you really losing? Presuming that you want to be a sneak-thief, you're not really going to get much out of Pact Boons (you want to avoid combat, after all), and you do far more damage with Sneak Attack than Curse. It seems like Sneak Attack is free, so there's Rogue Weapon Talent (nice, but you can go with Rapier instead) and Artful Dodger (nice, but go Halfling and you're pretty good). First Strike I would miss, but I can live without for cheap invisibility.

Also, someone should check my logic on the Shadow Walk ploy:

Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have superior cover or total concealment and aren’t outside the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.

. . .

Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.

Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.

Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.

Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.

Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.

These are the requirements for Stealth. Step (1) is to hide Out of Sight of the enemy, or behind Superior Cover / Total Concealment if in combat.

Next, trigger Shadow Walk

Shadow Walk: On your turn, if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn, you gain concealment until the end of your next turn.

So we have overlapping Concealment provided you keep moving at least 3 squares. But that imposes a -5 Stealth penalty, which is a serious hindrance. So we take Fleeting Ghost (Rogue Utility 2)

Fleeting Ghost: At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check.

Now you can move freely without taking that -5 penalty.

By this combination, you are effectively invisible until you fail a Stealth Check. A second level Halfling Rogue (DEX 18) has a check of +12 - well above the passive perceptions of pretty much every monster at low Heroic. Later he can take Skill Focus for an extra +3, and pick up an Elven Cloak +x for an extra +x bonus on Stealth.

Anyhoo, I'll agree with YPU that my off-the-cuff combos are not broken, though they are really good. Let's see what CharOp (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=867) has to say about it next week :smalltongue:

Asbestos
2009-04-06, 03:28 PM
That is a good combination, but not a particularly broken one, as far as I can see. You know, I cant believe I am saying this, but thus far the level of brokenness I quite low, for a playtest article no less. I am hopeful. (bad idea, I know)

Oh, for sure it isn't broken, I was just looking for combos that were passable.

For this Swordmage/Warlock build I was wondering which stat should be pushed to 18, Con or Int?

I was also wondering what race would be best. Stat-wise Githyanki are the winners, but they have no feat support. They allow for an 18 in both stats and a 13 in Str which would allow for hide armor to be picked up (which would be great considering the lack of Swordmage Warding). Goliaths give an 18 Int, a 16 Con, and a 13 str just fine and that nice damage resistance. However, they can also grant an 18 in Con, a 16 in Int, a 13 in Str, and a 13 in Dex which opens up a ton of useful feats. Warforged can also achieve this. Genasi, Shadar-kai, and Eladrin allow the same stats but with Con and Int reversed. Humans can have either an 18 Int or Con but have to do without a 13 in Str or Dex, they will have 4 at-wills as soon as they get the Infernal Pact and will have that extra feat to toss around at 1st level whereas all other races will be spending their one feat on Hybrid Talent.

All of those races are pretty useful, if I could just figure out whether I want an 18 in Con or Int... probably Con since the Int attacks benefit from the weapon proficiency bonus most of the time. Get a greatsword and the +3 might be making up for the lower to-hit.

Negatives:
Squishy; gain striker hp/level and have no AC boosting/concealment granting feature.
Two-primary stats.

Positives:
Relatively high HP for a striker (barb being the exception).
Secondary stats are also primary stats.
Blend of ranged and melee attacks.
Can use Armor of Agathys + Booming Blade combo to auto-damage foes into oblivion.


Edit: Oracle Hunter, I poked around CharOp and your Perma-Invisible Halfling is the most broken thing I've seen so far. Especially because it requires no real screwing around with the rules or carefully interpreting abilities/powers. However, it was already possible, just at a higher level, no?

Asbestos
2009-04-07, 02:12 AM
Glancing around CharOp I noticed that a big issue was that by hybridizing two classes that fill the same role you could make a 'pure' character that has no secondary role by cherry picking powers.

Thoughts?



-------------
Other combos I thought up...
Fighter/Swordmage: Grab Warding or a Fighter Feature, combine the hitting power of the fighter with the greater maneuverability of the Swordmage.
BRV Fighter/Warlord: Pick up the BRV feature and feel free to grab all those Warlord powers that work best when you get attacked, supplement with Invigorating Fighter powers to keep you alive longer.

TheOOB
2009-04-07, 02:24 AM
Glancing around CharOp I noticed that a big issue was that by hybridizing two classes that fill the same role you could make a 'pure' character that has no secondary role by cherry picking powers.

Thoughts?

Well, if you really want to, you can hamstring your character by only having one tactical option?

Really I don't see it as a problem. Sure you may be able to get super good at one thing(though as I mentioned, really this doesn't allow anything more broken then muliclassing allready did, it just does it a different way), but at the same time there will always be a situation where one role just isn't very useful, maybe an enemy that is to hard for the defender to keep in melee, or a foe who separates your party and makes your leader unable to do their job. Having a secondary role ensures you still have some use even when you primary function isn't well functioning.

YPU
2009-04-08, 05:02 AM
I can see a few thematic combinations that might be nice, my evil campaign might just do with a paladin/warlock. If you worship asmodeus why not make a pact with the devils as wel?

Xvos
2009-04-08, 08:50 AM
I've been fiddling about with this and built a Ranger/Rogue hybrid that is quite scary, link below shows him at level 11 after taking the Dagger Master prestige class.

Example Combat
Round 1
Minor Quarry Target
Move Move Beast and PC to flank target
Standard Attack with Claws of the Griffon

Your looking at 5d6+13 damage if both attacks hit, but neither attack crits and with a +16 to hit (including flank) that is quite likely. If one attack crits you are looking at 2d6 + 37 or 2d6 + 31 depending on which it is. If both crit you are looking at 2d6 + 43 damage!

Round 2
Move to retain Flank (if neccessary)
Standard Attack with Twin Strike
Minor Attack with Low Slash

This time your damage range (assuming you hit with all attacks) is from a lowly 7d6 + 20 plus slowing the target up to a gigantic 3d6 + 62 plus slowing the target if all attacks crit. And obviously with a sliding scale depending on how many do.

So in 2 rounds using no dailies and without any magic items at all (standard daggers) you deal between 12d6 + 33 and 5d6 + 105 damage.

I think thats not bad.

A Ranger/Rogue Hybrid (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=119012)

Asbestos
2009-04-08, 12:05 PM
I've been fiddling about with this and built a Ranger/Rogue hybrid that is quite scary, link below shows him at level 11 after taking the Dagger Master prestige class.

Example Combat
Round 1
Minor Quarry Target
Move Move Beast and PC to flank target
Standard Attack with Claws of the Griffon

Your looking at 5d6+13 damage if both attacks hit, but neither attack crits and with a +16 to hit (including flank) that is quite likely. If one attack crits you are looking at 2d6 + 37 or 2d6 + 31 depending on which it is. If both crit you are looking at 2d6 + 43 damage!

Round 2
Move to retain Flank (if neccessary)
Standard Attack with Twin Strike
Minor Attack with Low Slash

This time your damage range (assuming you hit with all attacks) is from a lowly 7d6 + 20 plus slowing the target up to a gigantic 3d6 + 62 plus slowing the target if all attacks crit. And obviously with a sliding scale depending on how many do.

So in 2 rounds using no dailies and without any magic items at all (standard daggers) you deal between 12d6 + 33 and 5d6 + 105 damage.

I think thats not bad.

A Ranger/Rogue Hybrid (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=119012)

You've got 1 too many d6s in the first round, remember that you can only sneak attack with rogue powers, not whenever you have flanking. You've also taken the Hybrid Talent twice which is another no-go. However, twin strike + low slash to get quarry and sneak attack damage in one round? Seems totally RAW legal.

Xvos
2009-04-08, 12:21 PM
You've got 1 too many d6s in the first round, remember that you can only sneak attack with rogue powers, not whenever you have flanking. You've also taken the Hybrid Talent twice which is another no-go. However, twin strike + low slash to get quarry and sneak attack damage in one round? Seems totally RAW legal.

Must of missed the part about not taking Hybrid Talent twice I'll rework it.

I'm sure I have the first round right

2d6 On hand 1d6 off hand 2d6 quarry.

Asbestos
2009-04-08, 12:31 PM
Must of missed the part about not taking Hybrid Talent twice I'll rework it.

I'm sure I have the first round right

2d6 On hand 1d6 off hand 2d6 quarry.

Yeah, that should only be 1d6 for quarry since it only applies once per round, not once per attack (I thought it was a 2d6 from sneak attack)

Nightson
2009-04-08, 12:46 PM
It's 11th level, it'd be 2d6.

Asbestos
2009-04-08, 12:53 PM
It's 11th level, it'd be 2d6.

Ha, you're right, don't know how I missed that.


In that case the 1st round is less than remarkable since a standard TWF ranger build can do more damage more consistently (double craghammers), they just don't crit quite as much (but their crits do more damage) Its the second round where he's getting sneak attack + quarry where the combo matters.

cdrcjsn
2009-04-08, 12:54 PM
Glancing around CharOp I noticed that a big issue was that by hybridizing two classes that fill the same role you could make a 'pure' character that has no secondary role by cherry picking powers.

Thoughts?



You can pretty much already to that with current stuff.

It's just that with a Hybrid you have access to twice as many powers to choose from.

But frankly though, as more splat books come out, the need for that drops.

I mean, you can already build a very strong Striker Fighter using just PHB1 and Martial Powers. Or a heavy Leader Warlord build.

Sure, you can cherry pick powers from other classes, but considering that you have to split your power choices relatively equally, it might not be worth it. There might be only one good power from class B at a particular level for example, but you'll be forced to pick two if you have 4 powers of that type (encounter, daily, utility, etc).

Lots of customization available. But I haven't really seen anything that screams broken. The Avenger/Swordmage ultimate AC might be an issue...but we'll have to see how they handle that when they get around to statting out the PHB2 classes.

Basically, the only broken combos I'm seeing were ones that were already available via multi-classing feats.

Asbestos
2009-04-08, 04:27 PM
Oh, thanks to the upcoming 'Arcane Heroes' minis the Swordmage/Warlock or 4e Hexblade as I like to call it, gets even better. See, the 'X Heroes' minis come with totally rules legal powers that can be used in RPGA type stuff. These powers will not appear in any other format apparently (which is a clever bit of marketing) Anyway, here's a new Warlock at-will (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mi20090408a_card.jpg) that would work great as the Warlock at-will picked at creation for my Shielding Aegis/Infernal Pact build since the Pact lends a ranged at-will already (do I really need a ranged basic attack? nah)

But where this would really shine is with an Assault Swordmage/Chalock build. Now, you never need to waste a feat on Melee Training or Intelligent Blademaster since you can use Eldritch Strike against your Aegis of Assault target (or anytime you need to make a melee basic attack). You don't really need higher than a 13 in Str (or Con) since you can easily cherry pick around powers that benefit from a high Str or Con and only need a +1 modifier for Greenflame Blade to take out minions. So, yes, you don't have the AC of a regular Swordmage but if you curse your Aegis of Assault target you get to attack + slide + do curse damage to him whenever he triggers your Aegis, assuming you haven't used you curse yet in the round. You'll definitely want to use the Hybrid Talent feat to pick up a Warlock pact because you'll get a ranged at-will and the pact boon, which is darn nice if you want to take a Warlock paragon path. The Shielding/Infernal build is a better Defender/Striker while the Assault/Chalock is probably a better Striker/Defender (though being able to slide your Aegis target away from your ally when you hit it is pretty darn good defending)

Man, I really want to try one of these builds out in a game... I might have to make a DMPC in that game I run just to try it out. Incidentally DMPC is probably a great use for a hybrid character, you shore up party roles without stepping on the other PCs too much (except maybe this build..)

Doug Lampert
2009-04-08, 05:20 PM
Personally, I think they should just revisit the multiclass feats so they're not so feat-intensive, and give paragon multiclassing a bit of a boost so that it's competitive with paragon paths.

IMAO Paragon Multiclassing matches up pretty well for powers. It sucks for features. A normal Paragon Path gives three or so features, often pretty nice ones, Paragon Multiclassing gives zero features.

Why didn't they do the obvious and give you a couple of the core class features of your multiclass as part of Paragon Multiclassing, you've spent FOUR FEATS and your paragon path so your Warlord can also be a Wizard, and they still won't let you cast CANTRIPS at level 11?!

Or consider a fighter with Cleric paragon multiclassing, you've spent four feats and your paragon path for your fighter to also be a cleric, and at level 11 you still don't get either Healer's Lore OR more than 1 healing word a day? I can see how full clerical healing would be way too much, but this? At least move the healing word 1/day to 1/encounter or something.

The Mormegil
2009-04-09, 04:29 AM
IMAO Paragon Multiclassing matches up pretty well for powers. It sucks for features. A normal Paragon Path gives three or so features, often pretty nice ones, Paragon Multiclassing gives zero features.

Why didn't they do the obvious and give you a couple of the core class features of your multiclass as part of Paragon Multiclassing, you've spent FOUR FEATS and your paragon path so your Warlord can also be a Wizard, and they still won't let you cast CANTRIPS at level 11?!

Or consider a fighter with Cleric paragon multiclassing, you've spent four feats and your paragon path for your fighter to also be a cleric, and at level 11 you still don't get either Healer's Lore OR more than 1 healing word a day? I can see how full clerical healing would be way too much, but this? At least move the healing word 1/day to 1/encounter or something.

And this, incidentally, is what you gain by Dual-Classing. At 1st level. Cantrips for the wizard, healer's lore and healing word 1/encounter as a cleric. And you can choose your powers from each class (although with some limitations, it's still better than power swaps). You lose, instead of four feats, most of your own class features. You can spend a feat to gain one of them back, you'll do this almost every time.

Nah, I think it's a good system. Potentially there could be SOME broken comboes, but most of the time it will be for flavor and versatility, not for power. Which is good for me...

BTW, I found a way to represent one of the hardest concepts in 4E I found up until now: a knight that uses two swords, one of pure light and one of pure darkness, to harm and heal at the same time. At 4th level. It was almost impossible, since the most I could do was fighter multiclassed into cleric. Now I can Dual-Class into cleric and I have encounter healing "light" spells, a dark spell at-will (reflavouring one of the ranged cleric at-wills) and knight (fighter) capacities (with Dual Strike). Almost impossible and definitely not really viable without Dual Classing, especially if you add to it that it was a Tiefling and that now I can even multiclass into, say, Warlock for more "darkey" powers.