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Myrmex
2009-03-30, 11:47 PM
Alright, I know the metamind is considered a weak PrC. Straight psion will actually net you more pp than all it's free manifesting abilities. However, since you manifest a power, but don't actually have to pay for it, and can augment it "as normal", does this mean you can augment the crap out of your powers?

For instance, energy current is a fifth level power that does 9d6 damage. For every point you augment it, it goes up 1d6 damage. If you augmented it for free, you would have an ML of at least 15 (19 with that one feat, 22 with overchannel), which means you could do 31d6 damage. Now, that's not a lot compared to a metamagic abusing wizard, but it is still not a small amount of damage, even at level 20. Alternatively, you could use maximize power on a 27d6 energy current, which is 162 damage (189 for some damage types) per round to one target, and 82 damage to another target. Combine with solicit psicrystal to get 162 damage/round without anything more than a std and a swift action.

Likewise, for save-or-die effects, such as dominate, we're talking about +11 to save DCs. With a 30 int (very doable at level 20), for a 5th level power, the save will be 15 + 10 (int) + 11 (augment) = 36. With psionic endowment, greater psionic endowment and the relevant psionatrix, we're looking at DC 39 saves. A Balor is going to have to be rolling natural 20s to make those.

Compared to alternatives that require a dozen splatbooks to make viable, the metamind seems a decent PrC given that you only need two books to make it work and doesn't rely on anything tricky, assuming my interpretation of the rules is correct. If they are not, then the class sucks and deserves its malign status.

Salvonus
2009-03-31, 12:45 AM
First off, I believe your interpretation of the rules to be correct. :smallsmile:

Secondly, keep in mind that it's not as impressive as you think. Take the Psionic Dominate example (mind-affecting problem aside, probably the best save-or-lose the Psion has).

An Overchannel-using Telepath 20 has a ML of 23. 23-7=16 possible points for augmentation=+8 to DC
Overchannel-using Metamind (with Practised Manifester) has a ML of 22. 22 possible points for augmentation (thanks to free manifestation) = +11 to DC.

You're getting +3 on your DC. Once a day. That's good, but not amazing.

The blasting example fares better. That's 8d6+8 more damage per round - an average of 36. You really do get to boost the crap out of that power. Problem is... again, that's once a day. Only once.

You have to also consider the "opportunity cost". Metamind costs you three feats compared to a straight Psion - Practised Manifester and the two bonus feats you would have gotten. Oh, and 9th level powers (and more than a single 8th level power).

Plus, Psion 20 doesn't need any splat books to rock. :smalltongue: Metamind is exceptionally crippled without Practised Manifester, and Complete Psi is a garbage book (including a bunch of nerfs to powers :smallyuk:).

See, overall, Metamind gets (assuming Practised Manifester):
33 pp from Free Manifesting.
11 pp from Cognizance Psicrystal
(Potentially) 190 pp from Font of Power (but only within a 10-round timeframe)
The ability to super-augment a single 5th level power per day. (That you still pay PP for.)

The Psion gets:
8 more powers
More than a single 8th level power.
9th level powers
3 feat advantage (2 bonus + Practised Manifester)
148 more base PP (usable at any time)

Sadly, the Metamind is still in the hole in terms of flexibility and survivability.

sonofzeal
2009-03-31, 01:04 AM
For instance, energy current is a fifth level power that does 9d6 damage. For every point you augment it, it goes up 1d6 damage. If you augmented it for free, you would have an ML of at least 15 (19 with that one feat, 22 with overchannel), which means you could do 31d6 damage.
Wrong. The base PP of the power counts against how far you can augment it, since you can only spend ML-pp on the power. The base power here is 9 pp, and you get 1d6 for every extra pp you put in... so overchannelling for ML 22 would let you do 22d6 damage, not 31d6.

It's still a decent combo, but not nearly as good as your math suggests.

Kyeudo
2009-03-31, 01:14 AM
Alright, I know the metamind is considered a weak PrC. Straight psion will actually net you more pp than all it's free manifesting abilities. However, since you manifest a power, but don't actually have to pay for it, and can augment it "as normal", does this mean you can augment the crap out of your powers?


Yes. You can throw all the power points you want at a power when using Font of Power, so long as you don't violate your Manifester Level Cap.



For instance, energy current is a fifth level power that does 9d6 damage. For every point you augment it, it goes up 1d6 damage. If you augmented it for free, you would have an ML of at least 15 (19 with that one feat, 22 with overchannel), which means you could do 31d6 damage. Now, that's not a lot compared to a metamagic abusing wizard, but it is still not a small amount of damage, even at level 20. Alternatively, you could use maximize power on a 27d6 energy current, which is 162 damage (189 for some damage types) per round to one target, and 82 damage to another target. Combine with solicit psicrystal to get 162 damage/round without anything more than a std and a swift action.

Likewise, for save-or-die effects, such as dominate, we're talking about +11 to save DCs. With a 30 int (very doable at level 20), for a 5th level power, the save will be 15 + 10 (int) + 11 (augment) = 36. With psionic endowment, greater psionic endowment and the relevant psionatrix, we're looking at DC 39 saves. A Balor is going to have to be rolling natural 20s to make those.


Here's where you go wrong. You have spent far too many PPs on that Energy Current and I suspect the same with your Dominate. As a fifth level power, Energy Current carries a 9 PP base cost. As a 10th level Psion/10th level Metamind, you have a ML of 15, plus 4 for Practiced Manifester plus 3 more when you Overchannel, for a ML of 22. You can buy only 13 more dice of damage, making it 22d6 of damage, not 31d6.



Compared to alternatives that require a dozen splatbooks to make viable, the metamind seems a decent PrC given that you only need two books to make it work and doesn't rely on anything tricky, assuming my interpretation of the rules is correct. If they are not, then the class sucks and deserves its malign status.

If you actually want to make Metamind worth more as a PrC, enter as an Ardent. The way that Ardents learn powers means you don't give up as many high level powers known, especially if you take Practiced Manifester. Next, play as a Warforged or other creature that doesn't ever need to sleep. Finally, take Expanded Knowledge(Temporal Reiteration). Congradulations, you now can have Font of Power running 24/7 for the rest of eternity, so long as you never use more than 10 swift actions on something other than manifesting Temporal Reiteration in a single day.

Zaq
2009-03-31, 01:30 AM
The way that Ardents learn powers means you don't give up as many high level powers known, especially if you take Practiced Manifester.

Minor derail here: I see this a lot, and I don't see how it works. What makes the Ardent power-known scheme better than that of a Psion? How does this trick, if you choose to call it a trick, work?

Myrmex
2009-03-31, 01:36 AM
First off, I believe your interpretation of the rules to be correct. :smallsmile:

Secondly, keep in mind that it's not as impressive as you think. Take the Psionic Dominate example (mind-affecting problem aside, probably the best save-or-lose the Psion has).

An Overchannel-using Telepath 20 has a ML of 23. 23-7=16 possible points for augmentation=+8 to DC
Overchannel-using Metamind (with Practised Manifester) has a ML of 22. 22 possible points for augmentation (thanks to free manifestation) = +11 to DC.

You're getting +3 on your DC. Once a day. That's good, but not amazing.

The blasting example fares better. That's 8d6+8 more damage per round - an average of 36. You really do get to boost the crap out of that power. Problem is... again, that's once a day. Only once.

Awwww, crap. I thought it was 3/day, but I see that you are right. That is quite underwhelming.


See, overall, Metamind gets (assuming Practised Manifester):
33 pp from Free Manifesting.
11 pp from Cognizance Psicrystal
(Potentially) 190 pp from Font of Power (but only within a 10-round timeframe)
The ability to super-augment a single 5th level power per day. (That you still pay PP for.)

The Psion gets:
8 more powers
More than a single 8th level power.
9th level powers
3 feat advantage (2 bonus + Practised Manifester)
148 more base PP (usable at any time)

Sadly, the Metamind is still in the hole in terms of flexibility and survivability.

I left out font abuse, but with persistent power, you got 10 rounds to rock the crap out of the game.


Wrong. The base PP of the power counts against how far you can augment it, since you can only spend ML-pp on the power. The base power here is 9 pp, and you get 1d6 for every extra pp you put in... so overchannelling for ML 22 would let you do 22d6 damage, not 31d6.

It's still a decent combo, but not nearly as good as your math suggests.

Since you are manifesting it for free (not paying a single pp), you are free to augment up to your pp cap. So the ability does 9d6 on its own; augmenting it with 22 pp (up to ML cap) nets you an additional 22d6, or 31d6 total.

The_Snark
2009-03-31, 01:42 AM
Minor derail here: I see this a lot, and I don't see how it works. What makes the Ardent power-known scheme better than that of a Psion? How does this trick, if you choose to call it a trick, work?

If you look at the table for the Ardent, you'll see it lacks the column titled "Maximum Power Level Known." Instead, when describing how they choose powers, it states the following:
"At each additonal level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost."
So it's not really a trick. The ardent can lose manifester levels without being hurt as much as any other manifester, provided they take Practiced Manifester. They still lose power points, though, and of course they have to take a feat... plus, most manifesting prestige classes won't have as good a base attack bonus... and lastly, they don't get more mantles if they multiclass, which severely restricts their power selection.

Salvonus
2009-03-31, 01:45 AM
Minor note: The super-augmented power that (s)he is talking about is the single 5th level power you get with the Free Manifesting class ability. As written, I'm pretty sure it works the way (s)he describes.

Basically:
A) You can spend pp on a power up to your ML. (22 with Practised Spellcaster+Overchannel)
B) Free Manifesting removes the base cost of the power from the equation.
C) Free Manifesting explicitly allows you to augment the power.

Therefore, by A+B+C, you can spend up to your ML purely on augments when using Free Manifesting.

It's (basically) like how a power (such as Body Adjustment) can have a different cost depending on your class. A PsiWar has the potential ability to augment an extra 2 pp more than a Psion can. In this case, Free Manifesting reduces the cost of the power to 0 pp and allows you to augment. Ergo, you can spend up to your ML on augments.

Crazy Scot
2009-03-31, 02:44 AM
First, I would agree with the responses so far saying you can't get the 31d6 damage. You could augment it up to 22, but the "free" 9 pp would IMHO count against the cap.


If you actually want to make Metamind worth more as a PrC, enter as an Ardent. The way that Ardents learn powers means you don't give up as many high level powers known, especially if you take Practiced Manifester. Next, play as a Warforged or other creature that doesn't ever need to sleep. Finally, take Expanded Knowledge(Temporal Reiteration). Congradulations, you now can have Font of Power running 24/7 for the rest of eternity, so long as you never use more than 10 swift actions on something other than manifesting Temporal Reiteration in a single day.

And Kyeudo, while this is a fun capability, there is an even more fun way of doing this. If you get the power Schism, you get a second mind that can manifest powers for you (one standard action / turn). While there are no rules saying you can take more time to manifest a power, as there are in 4e, it would make sense to allow your second mind to do this for you. So, the trick: pop Font of Power, use swift action to manifest Temporal Reiteration. Next round: manifest Schism, order second mind to permanently manifest Temporal Reiteration. Now you have unlimited pp without requiring any actions on your part. Throw that on a warforged who never needs to sleep for a little brokennes. And then for a last bit of brokenness, get a power stone with Timeless Body on it, FTW. Now you have unlimited power points, any powers or buffs you have on you prior to Timeless Body remain (indefinitely), and you ignore all attacks / powers / harmful (and helpful) effects. :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-03-31, 02:59 AM
First, I would agree with the responses so far saying you can't get the 31d6 damage. You could augment it up to 22, but the "free" 9 pp would IMHO count against the cap.

You are entitled to your opinion, but that goes against both the rules as written, and against the rules as intended. It's hard to be a "metamind" when you're metapsionics are under greater restrictions than a pure psion!


And Kyeudo, while this is a fun capability, there is an even more fun way of doing this. If you get the power Schism, you get a second mind that can manifest powers for you (one standard action / turn). While there are no rules saying you can take more time to manifest a power, as there are in 4e, it would make sense to allow your second mind to do this for you. So, the trick: pop Font of Power, use swift action to manifest Temporal Reiteration. Next round: manifest Schism, order second mind to permanently manifest Temporal Reiteration. Now you have unlimited pp without requiring any actions on your part. Throw that on a warforged who never needs to sleep for a little brokennes. And then for a last bit of brokenness, get a power stone with Timeless Body on it, FTW. Now you have unlimited power points, any powers or buffs you have on you prior to Timeless Body remain (indefinitely), and you ignore all attacks / powers / harmful (and helpful) effects. :smallbiggrin:

If you put Timeless body on yourself, you'd lose the benefits of all the other neat stuff you've got going on.


Your body ignores all harmful (and helpful) effects, beginning when you finish manifesting this power and ending at the end of your next turn. While timeless body is in effect, you are invulnerable to all attacks and powers.

Crazy Scot
2009-03-31, 04:15 AM
Speaking of opinions...

You are entitled to your opinion, but that goes against both the rules as written, and against the rules as intended. It's hard to be a "metamind" when you're metapsionics are under greater restrictions than a pure psion!
I am guessing from your response then, that you actually wrote the book, otherwise how can you know the intent of the writers? This is your interpretation of the rules, and just because your interpretation is different from mine doesn't make you right and me wrong (or vice versa). They are our opinions after all, and in the end they mean nothing. What matters is how the DMs read and interpret them, and what they allow in their games.

There are other prestige classes, that are more or less gimped than this one. Just because you think that it doesn't make sense to have a "metamind" that is under greater restrictions, doesn't justify it as a rule. If your DM allows it this way, more power to you, but that is for your game, and in no way makes it the ultimate answer to all questions related to this matter. People come to the board for opinions, and that is what we are ALL giving.


If you put Timeless body on yourself, you'd lose the benefits of all the other neat stuff you've got going on.
On Timeless Body there is nothing there that states that any effect already on you would cease once this power is activated. It says you ignore all harmful and helpful effects, but it doesn't spell out specifically if certain effects end if they were there first, or if only new effects would be ignored and older ones remain. Again, defer questions to the DMs and let them decide how to rule it. Other than that, once again, this is just a discussion of opinions and speculation.

Myrmex
2009-03-31, 04:53 AM
Speaking of opinions...

I am guessing from your response then, that you actually wrote the book, otherwise how can you know the intent of the writers? This is your interpretation of the rules, and just because your interpretation is different from mine doesn't make you right and me wrong (or vice versa). They are our opinions after all, and in the end they mean nothing. What matters is how the DMs read and interpret them, and what they allow in their games.[quote]

One can be reasonably certain of intent based on the naming of the class, and how it functions according to the rules they ascribed it. I can be reasonably certain of the intentions behind, say, the fighter or assassin class, without treading too far into the realm of solipsist inanity. Likewise, a class built around having a lot of power points, named metamind, and consisting of abilities that greatly increase the amount of augmentation/metapsionic feat application of powers is likely meant to do just that.

[quote]There are other prestige classes, that are more or less gimped than this one. Just because you think that it doesn't make sense to have a "metamind" that is under greater restrictions, doesn't justify it as a rule. If your DM allows it this way, more power to you, but that is for your game, and in no way makes it the ultimate answer to all questions related to this matter. People come to the board for opinions, and that is what we are ALL giving.

I don't just think that the metamind isn't under greater restrictions; it's not under greater restrictions. Read the rules yourself, if you don't believe me. Both Salvonus and I have already pointed out the relevant rules. Anything else would be opinion or a house rule.


On Timeless Body there is nothing there that states that any effect already on you would cease once this power is activated. It says you ignore all harmful and helpful effects, but it doesn't spell out specifically if certain effects end if they were there first, or if only new effects would be ignored and older ones remain. Again, defer questions to the DMs and let them decide how to rule it. Other than that, once again, this is just a discussion of opinions and speculation.

The rules are quite explicit about what happens when you manifest Timeless Body. Regardless of how the first clause operates, the second clause makes it explicit that no powers affect you during the duration of Timeless Body. This would include the shenanigans that allow you to have a permanent Font of Power, as well as other things.

MickJay
2009-03-31, 05:11 AM
"your body ignores..." is rather straightforward, you may have all the effects running on you, but you do not gain any benefits from them. I guess it could still be abused somehow. :smalltongue:

Talic
2009-03-31, 05:29 AM
Timeless body forces you to ignore all effects, both harmful and helpful. It doesn't state a limiter on what effects are intended, such as "pre-existing" or "new". So we must assume it's all inclusive... As it states.

This means that, you can manifest Schism. Poof! 2 minds.
You can activate Font of power. Poof! Free powers!
You can manifest Timeless Body. Poof! Both of the above effects are now ignored.

Bummer. On the bright side, if you get hit by Hold person, then Slow, then curse (-4 to Con), and then manifest Timeless body... Bang, all the above effects are ignored for the duration of timeless body.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-31, 08:24 AM
*the trick* While there are no rules saying you can take more time to manifest a power, as there are in 4e, it would make sense to allow your second mind to do this for you. Firstly, there is nothing that can be broken into swift or immediate actions.
Secondly, just because it does not include that you could opt for casting something with a certain casting time using more actions, making the assumption that you can is rather flawed, especially given the previous clause.
Thirdly, why in the name of the Elder Evils would you spend a standard action manifesting a swift action power, when you have unlimited power points and could instead spend a swift action to power a swift action power, then cast two completely unrestricted standard action powers? I don’t know if it’s just me, but I would rather like spending my swift action such that I could cast twice in a round, for the entirety of a day, especially if you start linking other powers to the Temporal Reiterate: 3 powers every turn, every round of the day is nothing to scoff at.

Crazy Scot
2009-03-31, 09:42 AM
Okay, I guess I read the rules differently for how to apply Timeless Body. And after closer consideration, you are probably right that since it doesn't specify which ones are ignored, it probably means that all (past and present) effects are ignored.

And as per XPH p. 59, a swift action takes more effort than a free action, but in no way limits your ability to take other actions. You can take only one swift action per turn. For example, manifesting a quickened power is a swift action. From that, you can see that it is less than a standard action (doesn't stop you from taking other standard actions in a turn), but more than a free action (specifically stated in the rules).

Arcane Snowman:
1. Using the above information, you can make casting/manifesting into a swift action, just use the Quicken Spell/Power feat. No, this isn't breaking down an action into a swift action, but it is speeding up an action to make it into a swift action. What I am proposing is doing the opposite, instead of Quickening, I would be "Slowing".
2. You are right, there is nothing in the rules but think about this for a second (or 6). Each round (6 seconds), you get 1 move action and 1 standard action. You can also take free actions (which require little to no effort), and one swift action (like manifesting a Quickened Power). For simplicity, if we just focus on the move and standard actions, you get 6 seconds for those. This equivalates out to about 3 seconds of concentration to each. So if you can move 30' in 3 seconds, what is stopping you from moving 30' in 6 seconds? Answer: nothing. If you want to do something slower you can. In that situation, all it requires is doing 2 15' moves (or some other break down), or 1 30' move and then standing there doing nothing. So if you can take more time doing one thing, it makes sense (to me at least) that you can do that for other things as well. But the final determination would have to fall to the DM on that.
3. My answer would be "for simplicity of bookkeeping". There is nothing stopping you from using your swift action each round to manifest Temporal Reiteration, but that requires constantly remembering it. If you miss it for more than 10 rounds in a day, then *poof* goodbye Font of Power. By having your second mind manifesting it (your second mind only gets one purelty mental standard action), you free up your mind to do anything you want to (including things that require complete concentration) without having to remember to manifest Temporal Reiteration.

Talic
2009-03-31, 10:48 AM
1. Using the above information, you can make casting/manifesting into a swift action, just use the Quicken Spell/Power feat. No, this isn't breaking down an action into a swift action, but it is speeding up an action to make it into a swift action. What I am proposing is doing the opposite, instead of Quickening, I would be "Slowing".And it is speeding up an action by a specific rulebook effect. Moving on.


2. You are right, there is nothing in the rules but think about this for a second (or 6). Each round (6 seconds), you get 1 move action and 1 standard action. You can also take free actions (which require little to no effort), and one swift action (like manifesting a Quickened Power). For simplicity, if we just focus on the move and standard actions, you get 6 seconds for those. This equivalates out to about 3 seconds of concentration to each.
Except that these are abstract concepts used to explain a framework of rules. If the times are exactly equivalent, then there would be nothing preventing someone from taking 2 standard actions a round, by your logic. Except that that isn't allowed. So this frame of logic you use doesn't apply perfectly to D&D.


So if you can move 30' in 3 seconds, what is stopping you from moving 30' in 6 seconds? Answer: nothing. If you want to do something slower you can. In that situation, all it requires is doing 2 15' moves (or some other break down), or 1 30' move and then standing there doing nothing. So if you can take more time doing one thing, it makes sense (to me at least) that you can do that for other things as well. But the final determination would have to fall to the DM on that.
You are allowed to slow movement because rules expressly allow that. In fact, they provide concrete mechanical bonuses to certain checks (such as move silently and hide) when you are moving slowly.

Such rules don't exist for other actions. So you're using a rulebook supported "safe" answer, and using it to draw a parallel that doesn't exist for any other action. This seems to me to be a "special case", and not a "precedent". The only other 'slow down' actions I know of? Taking 10.


3. My answer would be "for simplicity of bookkeeping". There is nothing stopping you from using your swift action each round to manifest Temporal Reiteration, but that requires constantly remembering it. If you miss it for more than 10 rounds in a day, then *poof* goodbye Font of Power. By having your second mind manifesting it (your second mind only gets one purelty mental standard action), you free up your mind to do anything you want to (including things that require complete concentration) without having to remember to manifest Temporal Reiteration.
Except that RAW explicitly disagrees with you. Read the spell Arcane Spellsurge from Dragon Magic. It provides an example where Swift actions cannot be slowed down. So it's safe to say that RAW is, at best, unclear.

However, nowhere in the rules does it allow for changing one type of action to another in the manner you describe. You turn the rules into an abstract, and use that abstract to justify new rules. It's like running a paragraph in english to spanish, then using a thesaurus to change half the words, and then run it back through the translator from spanish to english. More often than not, you end up with something that is gibberish, or, at the very least, is much more non-intuitive than the original text.