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Faleldir
2009-03-31, 08:25 PM
I'm going to play D&D 3.5 for the first time and I can't decide what class to use.

Here's what I know:
- Ability scores are 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 14. That's not a typo.
- We start at level 6.
- The first 5 levels must be one base class. The 6th can be the same class or a prestige class. No multiclassing until after we start playing.
- Races are limited to core and Eberron. No templates. A half-dragon wizard with INT 25 completely wrecked my DM's last campaign.
- All 3.5 material is allowed. All 3.0 and Dragon Magazine material must be approved.
- Flaws are allowed.
- Tome Of Battle is allowed.
- Class feature variants may be combined as long as they don't overlap.
- We have 13000 gp to spend however we want. No single item may be worth more than 5000 gp.
- I know nothing about the setting or the other characters. Feats with roleplaying prerequisites might not work.
- We will spend most of our time in cities and dungeons.

If at all possible, I'd like to play a martial class so I don't have to keep track of spells per day.
What would be a simple but effective build for a new player?

Hat-Trick
2009-03-31, 08:36 PM
Depends on what you're looking for with 'martial.'

Big Guy that took Standing In Front 101? Fighter, Paladin, Crusader, Warblade, Samurai, Knight maybe even a Dragon Shaman or Marshal (although not as much as the others)

Dexterous, maybe Suave Light Fighter? Swashbuckler, Hexblade, Rogue, Swordsage, Scout, Ranger

Bash 'em in the Head sort? Barbarian, Warblade, Fighter

Archer? Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Fighter

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2009-03-31, 08:39 PM
Knight/Crusade is one of my faves. I liked that character I had. Gavin was his name, I think...

Flickerdart
2009-03-31, 08:41 PM
A Barbarian would be a very simple character to play, with only one resource (Rage) to keep track of, and lots of HP standing between you and the Grim Reaper. Take an Orc (+4 STR!) or Human (Feat!) as race, and prioritize STR, CON and to a lesser extent DEX. Check out Complete Champion for the Spirit Lion Totem alternate class feature. There was a guide to Barbarians somewhere on these boards, worth a read.

Assassin89
2009-03-31, 08:41 PM
I think Fighter or Barbarian might be a good suggestion.

The stats are as follows
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 15 Wis 16 Cha 14

Race wise, I think human, dwarf, or warforged is a good choice.

Woodsman
2009-03-31, 08:43 PM
I enjoy swordsages myself (love that Desert Wind!), but it really depends on your style.

I'd suggest PHB2 for feat selection if you're a newbie. It's at the back of the book.

Flickerdart
2009-03-31, 08:47 PM
I think Fighter or Barbarian might be a good suggestion.

The stats are as follows
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 15 Wis 16 Cha 14

Race wise, I think human, dwarf, or warforged is a good choice.
Fighter is quite a poor choice, since it's not exactly the best class as is, even for an optimizer, and a one-trick pony at that. The Barbarian at least gets a choice, whether to Rage or not to Rage (of course, the answer is always MORE RAGE) and has class features which can be traded out for alternate ones.

JackMage666
2009-03-31, 09:07 PM
I'd recommend sticking to just the PHB for your first character. It may limit your options, but trust me, it makes it so much easier to get used to the game. Barbarian and Fighter are both simple classes to learn (You pick a good weapon, and you hit things with it.) If you're up for the challenge, a Rogue is an easy class if you're tactically minded, but doesn't have nearly the staying power as the higher HD classes.

Faleldir
2009-03-31, 09:17 PM
@ Flickerdart: I'm glad you mentioned Lion Totem Barbarian, because that was my first choice too. I just optimized for Pounce instead of Rage.

race: half-orc ability scores: STR 18+2, DEX 16, CON 17, INT 14-2, WIS 15, CHA 14-2
favored class: barbarian weapons: greataxe and armor spikes
flaw: shaky (power attack)
1 bbn 1 pounce, whirling frenzy 1/day, dashing step feat: t-w fighting
2 bbn 2 uncanny dodge
3 bbn 3 dashing step +1 feat: improved bull rush
4 bbn 4 whirling frenzy 2/day DEX+1
5 bbn 5 improved uncanny dodge
6 bbn 6 dashing step +2 feat: leap attack
7 ftr 1 fighter feat: headlong rush
8 ftr 2 fighter feat: shock trooper DEX+1
9 ftr 3 feat: improved t-w f
10 ftr 4 fighter feat: weapon focus: armor spikes
11 ftr 5
12 ftr 6 fighter feat: greater t-w f feat: axespike DEX+1

Sorry about the formatting, the forum deletes my tabs and spaces.

Studoku
2009-03-31, 09:20 PM
@ Flickerdart: I'm glad you mentioned Lion Totem Barbarian, because that was my first choice too. I just optimized for Pounce instead of Rage.
Sorry for going slightly OT, but which book is Lion-totem barbarian in?

Gorbash
2009-03-31, 09:20 PM
- Races are limited to core and Eberron. No templates. A half-dragon wizard with INT 25 completely wrecked my DM's last campaign.

How? Half dragon is a pretty lousy choice for a caster, since the only thing useful for a wizard in that template is +2 INT, which isn't worth even +1 LA, let alone +3.

Even though you don't want casters, Cleric is an excellent choice with those stats. And Clerics aren't compilcated at all, since you just have to choose spells, you don't have to learn them, as wizards do.

I'm playing a Half-Orc Cleric with similar stats (20 18 17 13 17 12), and he's the equivalent of having a wrecking ball on your side.

Myrmex
2009-03-31, 09:22 PM
I'd recommend sticking to just the PHB for your first character. It may limit your options, but trust me, it makes it so much easier to get used to the game. Barbarian and Fighter are both simple classes to learn (You pick a good weapon, and you hit things with it.) If you're up for the challenge, a Rogue is an easy class if you're tactically minded, but doesn't have nearly the staying power as the higher HD classes.

Judging by the power level of this game, I think this would be a poor decision. Playing a warblade would probably be better, since at least you could actually do things comparable to the rest of the party.

tyckspoon
2009-03-31, 09:28 PM
Do those stats include the +1 bump you get at level 4? If not, you should probably plan on working with two 18s. With that statline, I would be seriously tempted to play something normally considered near-unworkable because of the number of stats it uses.. in Core, that'd be the Paladin and Monk (relatively weak classes, but can be functional with the stats to support them.) Maybe a Paladin with Strength 18/Cha 18 (17+level boost)/Dex 16/other stats mostly irrelevant. Would make heavy use of the Divine feats to transmute that Cha bonus into combat power. But you probably shouldn't bring in a Paladin as your first ever character; they're loaded with potential RP problems, so it's safer to leave that until you know how the people you play with are likely to handle them.

AslanCross
2009-03-31, 09:29 PM
Sorry for going slightly OT, but which book is Lion-totem barbarian in?

The pouncing Lion Totem Barbarian is the version in Complete Champion.


Anyway, I would go with a Warforged Crusader or Warblade. I lean towards Warblade, but the Crusader would be a better tank. If you take Crusader, take Adamantine Body as your first feat. You might want to take Mithral Body for the Warblade instead, since Warblades aren't proficient in Heavy Armor (I still don't understand completely how armor proficiency interacts with the Warforged body feats, TBH. I skipped that problem altogether by making my first Warforged Warblade a Fighter/Warblade multiclass.)

Taking any of the PHB martial classes would be good if you want some melee/ranged versatility and multiclass with a ToB class. None of the ToB classes are proficient in ranged weapons.

I'd assign the ability rolls as follows:
STR 17 (+1 from Lv 4)
DEX 16
CON 18 (+2 from race)
INT 15
WIS 14-2
CHA 14-2.

EDIT: My bad, all levels in just one class. Either Crusader or Warblade, then. The Crusader is better for tanking and single heavy hits; the Warblade isn't as good a tank but does better for overall damage-dealing since it can recover its maneuvers faster. I suggest focusing on Stone Dragon and Iron Heart.

overduegalaxy
2009-03-31, 10:07 PM
Honestly, for a first character, I would not suggest diving into ToB. Sure, playing a non-ToB martial class means you'll be doing basically the same thing every round, but if you're really good at doing one thing, sometimes that's okay.

Swashbuckler/Rogue with Daring Outlaw lets you mix it up a bit, while Ranger is always fun and gives you TWF or archery feats for free. A Knight is a great choice for a tank, and a Barbarian will allow you to absolutely wreck people. Scout isn't a bad choice, either, but I wouldn't suggest it for a first time character.

Draz74
2009-03-31, 10:18 PM
Lately I've taken to recommending Dragonfire Adept for new players. It's a simple but powerful (but not overpowered) class.

It doesn't meet your requirement of "martial," but it sure doesn't have to worry about all the bookkeeping that "normal" full casters (Vancian, psionic, incarnum, whatever) have to deal with.

With an 18 CON and 17 CHA to start off, you'll certainly do well. I don't have time to spell out a whole build, but if you might like a caster-ish character who's very easy to play and useful in a lot of situations, and with a tendency for dragon-flavor (though you can probably work around that if you want), look up the DFA.

Superglucose
2009-03-31, 10:34 PM
two weapon fighting rogue?

STR 16
DEX 18 (+1 lvl 4)
CON 15
INT 18
WIS 14
CHA 14

I'll leave others to the optimization of this character because I have 0 splat books, but frankly it can deal loads of damage, but more importantly, you'll be rolling the most dice out of the party. I firmly believe that your first character should be something that's engaging, something that puts you in a position to always be doing something. A rogue is a skill monkey, which means you'll be picking the locks, you'll be disarming the traps, [/i]you'll[/i] be appraising the items and you'll be the party face, or at least a decent party face.

There's nothing more boring than watching the rest of the party do everything, from solving the puzzles to opening the locks. There's nothing wrong with playing a pure melee barbarian, of course, but that's just not engaging.

That being said, Paladin would be fun with these stats...

Os1ris09
2009-03-31, 11:03 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ghlight=Ranger

That is a link to my TWF Ranger 6/Scout 4/Dervish 10 build that got some help right here at GITP (thanks again guys :smallsmile:). Any how to fullfil your req's here is the suggested way to go with the build.

Ranger 5/ Dervish 1. Then continue with Ranger 6 (LVL 7)/Scout4/Dervish the rest. Or you can change the dervish or scout either way take Ranger at lvl 7 to get IMP TWF for free. Here is the build format for feats:

Lvl 6 Ranger/ Lvl 5 Scout/ Lvl 10 Dervish

1st: Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Power Attack (1st Ranger)
BF: Two weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
BF: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
BF: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
9th: Combat Expertise (3rd Scout)
10th: Swift Hunter (4th Scout)
12th: Combat Reflex's (2nd Dervish)
13th: Spring Attack (3rd Dervish)
15th: Robilar's Gambit(5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike(8th Dervish)

Keld Denar
2009-03-31, 11:32 PM
I'd 2nd Crusader. Especially Warforged. Call him Tankbot or something. Sure, the ToB manevuers may seem a little clunky at first, but trust me, after your first encount or so, you'll WISH you weren't playing a basic fighter. Do this...

Crusader6

1st Adamantine Body
3rd Stone Power
6th Extra Granted Maneuver

Maneuvers
1st Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Crusader Strike, Stance: Martial Stance
2nd Stance: Leading The Charge
3rd Foe Hammer
4th swap Vanguard Strike for Mountain Hammer
5th White Raven Tactics
6th swap Leading the Attack for Revitalizing Strike

That should suite you perfectly. Use your Steely Resolve + Stone Power + Adamantine Body to never take damage (remember, as a crusader, you get to count your DR twice, once as it goes into your Steely Resolve, once as it drains). Should be awesome.

Faleldir
2009-04-01, 07:36 AM
@ Os1ris09: Would a Ranger6/Swordsage4/Dervish10 work? I can get Weapon Focus for free, Desert Wind Dodge is better, and CotW Ranger gives me Combat Expertise.

@ Keld Denar: If I play a Crusader, will the random granted maneuvers get me killed when I need a specific one?

ericgrau
2009-04-01, 10:13 AM
Here's some equipment (13k):
gauntlets of ogre power (4k, +2 strength); or gloves of dexterity +2 if you go weapon finesse
+1 armor (+1k above MW price)
[+1 shield if you have a shield]
ring of protection +1 (2k, gives +1 deflection bonus to AC, affects flat-footed AC, affects touch AC)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2k, +1 natural armor bonus to AC, affects flat-footed AC, does not affect touch AC)
Masterwork melee weapon(s) and masterwork composite bow, arrows (>600; masterwork weapons give a +1 to attack bonus and cost 300 more than normal)
handy haversack (2k)
trail rations, bedroll, whetstone, etc.

That leaves about 1k, which you can use for misc. gear and healing potions. A +2 magic weapon only gives you another +1 AB for a whopping 8k, so it's too early for one now. But in a couple levels or so it'll be time to pick one up. If you go TWF wait a little longer, 'cuz 2 magic weapons are pricey. I'd get a +1 with d6 damage enchantments or spell storing rather than a +2 or +3. Also get boots of speed (12k) as soon as you can if you don't have someone to hit you with haste all the time; haste is just that good.

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-01, 10:45 AM
For the first character, I'd second the pouncing barbarian. Is fun, and you have ranged weapons and some skill out of combat.

The rogue too could be a good idea, but needs slightly more work (and sometimes newcomers are upset if adventures has too many undead and similar creatures immune to SA - this is easily fixable with ACFs but..).

If you like ToB, when you are higher level you can multiclass. Multiclassing system of ToB is IMHO very good and allows you to don't be too "left behind" about initiator level. I'd not recommend a Martial Adept as a first character, Both for ToB mehcanics and to allow time to know better combat basics (and few feats).

I'd disagree about fighter good for newcomers. I found fighters very difficult to built and play, but maybe it's my experience (and my gaming group don't play them as one trick ponies, BTW).

Darth Stabber
2009-04-01, 11:09 AM
I Thing that ranger is a good class for newbs. you start off like fighter (minus 1 hp on average) with better skills, so right off you start learning the combat and skill systems, and then as you get the hang of that, you get spells to start learning that system, and you don't have so many that it distracts from what you are doing initially, nor do you have enough to make a big bookkeeping nightmare. And Ranger has the choice of being melee muscle or archer, so the player gets a good choice as to what they want to fight like.

Key Advantages to Ranger
-Core: It is in the PHB and requires no other books
-Skills: 6+ is decent, and the ranger skill list is good enough to make you a partial skill monkey
-BAB: Full, meaning you are likely to hitstuff, thus reducing frustration @ missing
-Hit Die: D8, You aren't the fighter but with that hit die you can absorb a few blows
-Spell: You get some spells, Not alot, but enough to learn how prepared spellcasting works, and not so many as to make book keeping a problem, and they are not so important as to not be ignorable if you don't want to deal with them
-Animal companion: Nice to have Pet.
-Two divergent paths: The player has the relatively straight forward choice of archery or Melee
-Favored Enemy: Just a good Class feature, Lets them take advantages against things that they think that they will have a problem with.
-Fun Prestige classes: Just off the top of my head: Horizon walker and Dread commando
-First 11 lvls all give Features: So assuming you PrC out before LVL12, you don't have dead lvls, and dead lvls suck.

My vote TWF ranger, Prc into Dread commando.

Learnedguy
2009-04-01, 11:19 AM
@ Keld Denar: If I play a Crusader, will the random granted maneuvers get me killed when I need a specific one?

Nah, not really. It just requires you to be a bit more creative with what you got.

ericgrau
2009-04-01, 11:29 AM
I'll second picking a barbarian for easy play. As said picking fighter feats (and, often, using them) makes him a bit complicated. If you want variety then later on you can try tripping or grappling or etc. Ranger is a very bad idea for a new player IMO, since combat-wise he is in every way worse than a fighter with the same feats (and more feats besides). The advantages he has are some skills and tricky spells, which are a bit too complicated for new players (and even some veterans who don't pay much attention to these rules). Not that he wouldn't be fun to try later for those very same reasons.

EDIT: Oh hey, or you could try the cheat sheets I just added to my sig for the skills (use 1st link). For spells read them carefully and bookmark them, or get spell cards.

Killer Angel
2009-04-01, 11:39 AM
I'm going to play D&D 3.5 for the first time and I can't decide what class to use.



If it's your first character, i suggest to stay core. It's simpler.

first option:
If the other players pick classes from ToB or arcane casters using various handbooks, you'll risk to be underpowered.
So play a druid, problem solved. :smallbiggrin:

second option:
don't care about power. It's your first character. Play the pc you like more (even if it's a monk) and have fun.
There will be a lot of time to optimize your future pcs. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2009-04-01, 02:42 PM
If you plan on sticking to Barbarian, I suggest adding "Imperious Command"-feat from Drow of the Underdark (and switching the 15 from Wis to Cha). It allows you to make a person you Intimidate in combat to Cower. Awesome for a Barbarian, and you have the stats to pull it off too. Simple trick, and a solid addition to your toolbox - DM worries about the DCs and all that (though note that Dragons and mindless things, among others, cannot be frightened).

A Barbarian can really be pretty good. Focus on what you want to do, layeth the smackdown and Power Attack generously. On those levels, you might still want to pick up "Extra Rage" from Complete Warrior as 2 Rages/day is pretty few and you really want to Rage all the time. Since you're familiar with the alternative class features, check Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) - goes great with your Pounce.


Also, place your 17 in Dex if you plan on Two-Weapon Fighting - the prerequisites are pretty high. Of course, I'd probably prefer Orc or even Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs) to a standard Half-Orc as Half-Orcs really kinda suck (Orc is in Monster Manual and Water Orc in SRD, so both fit some definition of the Core although Water Orc is arguable - then again, it's just a variant), getting only half of an Orc's strength and really little good from the Human-side. You'd need to place your 17 in Charisma to get Imperious Command as an Orc though - not the worst option, but not your first choice either.

Keld Denar
2009-04-01, 04:00 PM
@ Keld Denar: If I play a Crusader, will the random granted maneuvers get me killed when I need a specific one?

Thats the joy of the Extra Granted Maneuver feat. Instead of your usual 2 manevuers out of 5 readied at any given time, you'll have 3/5 readied. Of those 3, at least 1 will be what you want, after which you'll draw another, and then another, and then reset. Sure, you won't be able to "spam" the same maneuver over and over, but lots of manevuers function similar. For example, healing strikes from Devoted Spirit function a lot like the DR strikes from Stone Dragon. They both effectively give you HP. The nice thing about the DR strikes too, is that crusaders check DR twice, once when the damage goes into your Steely Resolve pool, and once when your Steely Resolve pool empties and actually causes HP damage. So, if you get hit, some of the damage goes into your Steely Resolve pool, where you can either heal it with a healing strike like Crusader Strike or Revitalizing Strike, or you can soak it with Stone Bones or one of the other higher level DR strikes. In the end, your HP totals will be the same. Similarly with your damage strikes. Mountain Hammer and Foehammer are remarkably similar. Chances are you'll always have at least 1 of the 2 up, and you'll draw the other the next turn. That means there is a good chance you'll always have one of the 2 up, so you'll have offensive actions to take as well.

And so on. Creative selection of maneuvers + the Extra Granted Maneuver feat mean that you'll almost ALWAYS have what you want, when you want it.

Also, I'm sure its been said, but the easiest way to keep track of Crusader manevuers is with note cards. Write down each maneuver with a short discription each on a single card. Then take the 5 cards that will be your "hand" and shuffle them. At the start of each encounter, draw up 3 cards and hold them in front of you, keeping the other 2 face down as a draw pile. When you are granted a new maneuver, draw the top one, and when you initiate a maneuver, discard it aside. When you have nothing new to draw, shuffle your hand and discard pile and draw 3 new cards. It works SOOOOO slick that way, and is totally easy and fluid in actual play, since you don't have to keep track on a piece of paper or whatever. As you learn new maneuvers, make new cards, and always set the ones you want aside as you "hand".

Faleldir
2009-04-01, 06:36 PM
Well, you've convinced me. A Warforged Crusader sounds great! If I go into the Anointed Knight PrC at level 8 and take Armor Specialization (composite plating) at level 12, that gives me a total DR of 7, effectively doubled. The only problem is needing a super-high CHA; can I afford to put my 18 in a tank's dump stat?

Keld Denar
2009-04-01, 07:07 PM
Honestly, the best thing to take with Crusader is MORE Crusader. Keeping your IL high gets you the higher level maneuvers which give you more damage, more healing, more DR, and even hawt options like no-save stunning (White Raven Hammer!). Plus your Steely Resolve goes up allowing you to soak even more damage.

And regarding Charisma. Charisma is like, a 4th priority for a Crusader. Str, Con, Dex, Cha, Int, Wis, pretty much in that order, although you could swap Int and Wis. Cha only affects 2 things. It gives you a bonus on your Will save, which you can easily aquire elsewhere (Steadfast Determination feat, +save items, etc), and it gives you a bonus to hit with your Smite attack, which, for some reason, is only 1-2 times a day (really odd, considering that almost everything else ToB related is per encounter, not per day).

Take a look at the Stone Power feat in ToB. Its kinda like Power Attack, where you take a penalty to hit, but instead of getting bonus damage, you gain 2 temp HP per point of BAB sacrificed. Thus, when you make a Stone Dragon strike, you can gain a certain number of temp HP which, when your Steely Resolve empties at the end of your turn, get buffered by the Stone Power temp HP. Between Stone Power, your DR, Steely Resolve, you won't be taking hardly any HP damage, and when you do, you can heal it back up with Martial Stance and Crusader/Revitalizing Strikes. The only problem, is that you can only use Stone Power when you are touching the ground, and using either a Stone Dragon Strike or Stance. Given that nearly all Stone Dragon Stances are pretty bad (compared to White Raven or Devoted Spirit Stances), that leaves with the ability to only use it with your Stone Dragon Strikes, which are great, but not usable every round. Still, its pretty good when you need it.

If you REALLY want to PrC, and your DM allows forum homebrew, there is an absolutely AMAZING PrC made by Krimm Blackleaf specifically for Warforged Warblades and Crusaders. It focuses on Stone Dragon and Iron Heart maneuver and gives you a bunch of class features that augement your composite plating to make you a real beefy tank. Found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99062)

Oh, and one other thing worth noting. Since Devoted Spirit healing is moral based rather than positive energy based, it gets around the whole living construct 1/2 healing from spells thing. That really goes a long way to reducing one of the most painful penalties associated with playing a Warforged.

Faleldir
2009-04-01, 07:47 PM
If I understand correctly, an effective tank needs a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still.
Can I get by with just a glaive and my slam, or should I spend a feat to use a spiked chain?

Roots Of The Mountain is a pretty good Stone Dragon stance; should I take Martial Stance to learn it at level 6?

Os1ris09
2009-04-01, 08:03 PM
@ Os1ris09: Would a Ranger6/Swordsage4/Dervish10 work? I can get Weapon Focus for free, Desert Wind Dodge is better, and CotW Ranger gives me Combat Expertise.

Yes it is a playable build. Naturally it isn't one of the big 5 or even in the next tier below but I enjoy it. It's right now at lvl 25 and well lets just say I do more DMG overall and AVG per hit than even the cleric. Granted I don't have "spells" but I can drop one of the big 5 in about 3 rounds assuming I win initiative. BUT it seems you like crusader and the ToB feats aren't in that list because my DM disapproves of ToB because it, honestly, if optimized is way Over-powered to the extent of you add augment crystal's to your weapons and you can kill anything. My build is optimized to do one thing. Lots of damage and get even more damage by crits. At lvl 15 I was doing anywhere from 64-280 DMG AVG per hit. Mostly the high numbers came from crit's but even my non-crit hits got anywhere from 56-80 DMG so i just settled to about the middle. If you have anymore question's about the Scout/Ranger/Dervish build please ask cause GITP and I can answer them. Good Luck and I hope you find this game fun and entertaining. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-04-01, 08:06 PM
If you want to be a lockdown type tank, then yes. A reach weapon + combat reflexes + standstill is a good choice. Its a lot of investment though. Really, a Crusader is an ideal tank by virtue of the fact that ignoring one is generally worse than not. When you are whackin away with a big 2hander (like a Greatsword or Glaive) and hitting hard with Mountain Hammer or Foe Hammer and a good str + healing yourself and allies with Crusader/Revitalizing Strike, you will actually be valid threat, worthy of drawing attacks. There are multiple ways to tank. If you really want to do the whole lockdown thing proficiently, I'd recommend NOT being a Warforged, but instead being a human for the bonus feat. I'd also encourage 2ish levels of Fighter splashed in for the extra feats required.

Also, for general beats, any old 2hander with or without reach will do. I like having reach mostly because it defeats opponents reach, and there are a lot of large creatures. For real lockdown though, I like a Spiked Chain simply because its more PA-able and enchanting multiple weapons to be effective is terribly expensive.

Something like:

Human
Fighter1 Combat Reflexes, Standstill, EWP: Spiked Chain
Fighter2 Power Attack
Crusader1 Extra Granted Maneuver
Crusader2
Crusader3
Crusader4

Or similar. Really, I think the warforged idea is cooler.

PS, check out my last post, I found that PrC. Krimm Blackleaf made it, and its EXCELLENT.

Os1ris09
2009-04-01, 08:07 PM
If I understand correctly, an effective tank needs a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still.
Can I get by with just a glaive and my slam, or should I spend a feat to use a spiked chain?

Roots Of The Mountain is a pretty good Stone Dragon stance; should I take Martial Stance to learn it at level 6?

The way I understand and GITP correct me if I am wrong spiked chain is only used for field control. DMG output is used by any 2d4 Reach weapon other than spiked chain. For example a Guisarme or a Glaive will do fine for DMG and tripping.

Faleldir
2009-04-04, 04:57 PM
I will be a desert half-orc Barbarian 6/Fighter 2/Scout 1/Ranger 1/Highland Stalker 10.

ability scores: STR 18, DEX 16, CON 17+2, INT 14-2, WIS 15, CHA 14
race: desert half-orc
favored class: barbarian
flaw: shaky (power attack)
1 bbn 1 pounce, whirling frenzy 1/day, dashing step feat: improved bull rush
2 bbn 2 uncanny dodge
3 bbn 3 dashing step +1 feat: fleet of foot
4 bbn 4 whirling frenzy 2/day
5 bbn 5 improved uncanny dodge
6 bbn 6 dashing step +2 feat: leap attack
7 ftr 1 fighter feat: shock trooper
8 ftr 2 fighter feat: headlong rush
9 sct 1 skirmish 1d6, trapfinding feat: combat acrobat
10 rgr 1 favored enemy, track, wild empathy
11 highland stalker 1 mountain stride
12 highland stalker 2 skirmish 2d6 feat: extra rage
13 highland stalker 3 swift tracker
14 highland stalker 4 skirmish 2d6 +1AC
15 highland stalker 5 surefooted feat: improved skirmish
16 highland stalker 6 skirmish 3d6 +1AC
17 highland stalker 7 camouflage
18 highland stalker 8 skirmish 3d6 +2AC feat: extend rage
19 highland stalker 9
20 highland stalker 10 skirmish 4d6 +2AC

I know a lot of you don't like my choice of race because it has average STR, but I get Run as a bonus feat, which allows me to get Fleet Of Foot. Being able to charge in more places at low levels is more important than, at most, +2 to attack and +3 to damage.
I took a level of Scout to get Balance as a class skill and qualify for Combat Acrobat. If I'm going to optimize charging, I don't want my specialty to be thwarted by one square of ice. This may or may not be redundant depending on how you interpret Leap Attack. It's not set in stone.
Highland Stalker seemed like an obvious choice because I can't continue Scout without multiclassing penalties. The one level of Ranger is just to get Track; if you know a better way, let me know.

Thank you all for helping me! I won't forget your ideas!