[3E (not 3.5)] Druid issues.

[AngelOmnipotent]

I've posted several Druid questions over the past month or so, but now I have another unexpected problem. The DM of the game I'm going to join had lead me to believe that he was running 3.5e, but in fact he is running 3e, and my heart sank. I'm a huge believer that 3.5 was a HUGE improvement from 3e so I never bothered to pick up any of the 3e books for myself.

Looking in the 3e PHB that I borrowed from someone else it seems like Druids in 3e are limited compared to their 3.5 counterparts. A measly 2HD Animal Companion with no progression which becomes useless after around level 3, only -ONE- Wildshape choice per size catagory (if I read correctly), no Natural Spell feat and their spell list is only 50% of what it should be. The group only owns the Core 3e stuff so no splat books available that aren't geared to 3.5, so I'm stuck.

Short of begging the DM to let me play a 3.5 Druid, is there anything I can do to help things along? The Animal Companion I can live with, and the Wildshape choice I can live with too assuming he lets me take things out of alternate Monster Manuals (does monster advancement still apply in 3e?), but the lack of spells make me cringe. A Druid not being able to cast Bulls Strength/Cats Grace/Owls Wisdom etc. is just... it just doesn't make sense! :smalleek:

[Starbuck_II]

Looking in the 3e PHB that I borrowed from someone else it seems like Druids in 3e are limited compared to their 3.5 counterparts. A measly 2HD Animal Companion with no progression which becomes useless after around level 3, only -ONE- Wildshape choice per size catagory (if I read correctly), no Natural Spell feat and their spell list is only 50% of what it should be. The group only owns the Core 3e stuff so no splat books available that aren't geared to 3.5, so I'm stuck.



Druids get multiple animal companions instead of one strong one. Have the multiple ones use Aid another: they will increase chance to hit that way.





Short of begging the DM to let me play a 3.5 Druid, is there anything I can do to help things along? The Animal Companion I can live with, and the Wildshape choice I can live with too assuming he lets me take things out of alternate Monster Manuals (does monster advancement still apply in 3e?), but the lack of spells make me cringe. A Druid not being able to cast Bulls Strength/Cats Grace/Owls Wisdom etc. is just... it just doesn't make sense! :smalleek:

You lack the Complete 3.0 books?
Defenders of the Faith?

Spells such:
Bear’s Heart. Defenders of the Faith, page 81.

[AngelOmnipotent]

Druids get multiple animal companions instead of one strong one. Have the multiple ones use Aid another: they will increase chance to hit that way.

You lack the Complete 3.0 books?
Defenders of the Faith?

It says in the PHB that no Animal Companion or group of them can equal more than 2HD, or does that limit improve?

And no, only books we have access to are PHB, DMG and MM. Why they chose 3e I'll never know, but apparently they prefer it. *shudder*

[Starbuck_II]

I have the book here with me, too bad.

Do you have the 3.5 books like Spell compendruim?
Most of them are unchanged.
1) Brambles level 2
2) brair Web level 2
3) Spikes level 3
4) Slime Wave level 7

Never updated:
1) Harrier level 3- summons an incorporeal bird to attack enemies.
2) Bear's Heart level 4- Bear's Str, mass + Virtue spell.
3) Chain Eyes level 4-see through another's eyes.

[AngelOmnipotent]

I have the book here with me, too bad.

Do you have the 3.5 books like Spell compendruim?
Most of them are unchanged.
1) Brambles level 2
2) brair Web level 2
3) Spikes level 3
4) Slime Wave level 7

Never updated:
1) Harrier level 3- summons an incorporeal bird to attack enemies.
2) Bear's Heart level 4- Bear's Str, mass + Virtue spell.
3) Chain Eyes level 4-see through another's eyes.

I have all the 3.5 books you can think of, but dragging those along to a seemingly 3.5 allergic group could be a bit on the difficult side. The main problem is that I've had no in-depth experience with 3e as far as reading the books go, is there really no Natural Spell feat at all in any 3e book? =/

[tyckspoon]

It says in the PHB that no Animal Companion or group of them can equal more than 2HD, or does that limit improve?

And no, only books we have access to are PHB, DMG and MM. Why they chose 3e I'll never know, but apparently they prefer it. *shudder*

That should be 2HD per class level. It is true that you don't get more companions or advanced ones automatically, however; you have to go out and charm them into your service with the.. umm.. I think it was called Animal Friendship spell? Basically every so often you want to stop and tell your DM that you're going to be making some Know: Nature or Survival or whatever the hell the appropriate 3.0 skill is to find the biggest predator in the area so you can go recruit it as your new companion/add it to your zoo. (Might want to specify natural animal predator, since otherwise you're going to end up tracking down wyverns and dragons and all kinds of stuff that'll just try to kill you.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Survival was called Wilderness Lore in 3.0.

[Stormageddon]

I believe in 3.0 their is a ritual that a druid can do to increase he/her animal's HD. I think it is in defenders of the wild or something like that.

[grinner666]

The lack of Natural Spell is actually a fairly minor issue, since the Wilding Clasp doesn't exist in 3.0 either, so Wild Shape is basically useful for (a) escaping things you can't fight, (b) dealing with environmental obstacles (cliffs, rivers, drowning, blizzards, etc.) and (c) an instant day's worth of healing.

Why don't you just tell your DM that if he insists on running 3.0, he should at least kiss you first?

:smalltongue:

[Darrin]

It says in the PHB that no Animal Companion or group of them can equal more than 2HD, or does that limit improve?


I can't recall exactly, but I think it's 2HD per Druid level. You can either take a bunch of smaller animals, or combine them into a single larger animal. I think there was a magic item in the DMG 3.0 that increased the number of HD you could control? Or am I misremembering something?



And no, only books we have access to are PHB, DMG and MM. Why they chose 3e I'll never know, but apparently they prefer it. *shudder*

Ok, I won't say you absolutely *MUST* have Masters of the Wild, since Druids are full casters and even in 3.0 they are still a solid Tier 1 class... but Masters of the Wild has pretty much everything you want that was adapted into 3.5:

* Natural Spell
* Wilding Clasp
* Revised Wild Shape rules
* More dire and legendary animals to fill the gaps between the standard animals.
* New spells, a few of which were adapted into 3.5 or later appeared in Complete Divine/Spell Compendium.

Well, ok, the spells don't really compare to what's in the Spell Compendium (I'm looking at you, blinding spittle!). The regenerate spells are garbage compared to the vigor line, since they don't heal previous damage. Sandblast, wood wose, briar web, and creeping cold are all pretty solid spells. But even in 3.0, druids have possibly the best selection of offensive, defensive, and utility spells straight out of the PHB.

Heck, if you like, I can send you or your DM my copy of Masters of the Wild, free of charge. Send me a PM with the address.

[Eldariel]

Natural Spell is in Masters of the Wild - it's available just fine. As far as equipment goes, do what we all did back in the day and put on your gear after Wildshaping. Works like a charm. That said, both Wilding Clasps and Wild armor (+3 cost) are also in the said book, so knock yourself out.

Remember that 3.0 Wildshape kicked ass:
You healed as if you had rested for the night when Wildshaping (as per Polymorph). Further, you determine your HP by the Con of the new form - you get to beat the Fighter in that department for free! You also got all natural (Ex) abilities of a creature, such as Regeneration, Fast Healing et al.

The only drawback is that you initially lack Dire Wildshape, which you'll acquire on level 12 (over Plant Wildshape, which doesn't exist in the standard progression).


EDIT: Ninjas.

[lesser_minion]

The Animal Companion class feature lets the druid begin play having cast animal friendship on one or more animals, and allows her to have 2hd in animal minions at 1st level - something that is normally impossible for what could probably be described as "any PC". If you go back to the spell description, it actually says that at any one time, an adventuring druid (i.e. a PC) can only have up to her caster level in befriended animals.

3.0 Wild Shape is based on 3.0 Polymorph Self with the exceptions that you can only assume one form each time you use it and you can only assume specific types and sizes of animal. You don't have to choose forms in advance or anything like that, IIRC.

BTW, while 3.5 made some changes that made the game better, and cut a few things that can be best described as 'retarded', I wouldn't say that it improves the game in every feasible manner.

[Crazy Scot]

First, if you are planning on playing a 3.0 Druid, then I would definitely recommend tracking down a copy of Master of the Wild. As noted by others, Natural Spell is available (p.24), and there is a whole chapter about animal companions (starting on p.34) which even covers improving existing companions instead of shopping for new ones.

Secondly, if you are at interested in Wildshaping, there is an awesome prestige class in MotW called the Shifter. Basically, it is like the Master of Many Forms from 3.5, but you get more options of things to change into. You lose your spellcasting progression, but by the end of 10 levels you can shift into any type of creature (except fey, for some reason), of any size (except Colossal). Additionally, at 6th level, shifting becomes (Su) so no AoO for shifting, and no Concentration checks required. At 10th level, shifting only takes a move action, and can be done once per round as often as desired. Your type changes to "shapechanger" which means you are immune to any spell that affects humanoids only, and you get Darkvision 60' (always on, no matter form).

[Oslecamo]

Remember that 3.0 Wildshape kicked ass:
You healed as if you had rested for the night when Wildshaping (as per Polymorph). Further, you determine your HP by the Con of the new form - you get to beat the Fighter in that department for free! You also got all natural (Ex) abilities of a creature, such as Regeneration, Fast Healing et al.



Eeerrr....NO! Where did you get that idea?

The character retains his or her Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in the character’s Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base saves. (New Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.) The character retains his or her own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. The character can cast spells for which he or she has components. The character needs a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components. The caster does not gain the spell-like abilities of the new form. The character does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature.

From the 3.0 srd:

http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/

[ericgrau]

Druids get multiple animal companions instead of one strong one. Have the multiple ones use Aid another: they will increase chance to hit that way.


1. Fixing something weak or that you don't like by using cheese is not the answer.

2. Unless things changed in the transition to 3.5e, animals, including animal companions are limited in their actions by the tricks that the druid can command them to do. "Tricks" means "attack", "down", "guard", "heel", etc. The only advantage a druid & his animal companion have is that he can command it/them as a free action instead of a move action and start with 2 free tricks. Animals are limited to 6 tricks, or 3 if they have an int of 1.

[Eldariel]

Eeerrr....NO! Where did you get that idea?

The character retains his or her Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in the character’s Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base saves. (New Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.) The character retains his or her own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. The character can cast spells for which he or she has components. The character needs a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components. The caster does not gain the spell-like abilities of the new form. The character does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature.

From the 3.0 srd:

http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/

What I stated is in the PHB and not changed in MoTW IIRC. Apparently they applied a 3.0 erratum for it too (I can't remember that ever happening, but it's been so long...), but by 3.0 PHB, it works as I stated.

[AngelOmnipotent]

First of all thank you all so much for your information. I've been able to buy a PDF version of Masters of the Wildand it really has put my mind at ease knowing there's a Natural Spell feat and Wilding Clasps. I'll be joining the group at around level 8-ish and I completely forgot from my days of Neverwinter Nights how -broken- a Shifter can be in the right hands.

Thank you to Darrin who offered to mail me a copy of Masters of the Wild but unfortunately I'm in the UK and I doubt you'd want to spend $25 just mailing something :smallwink: but thank you very very much for the generous offer.

As for the Wild-Shape-Like-Polymorph-Self it depends if you have the errata for the PHB or not. Some state that you base your HP on the CON of your form and get all (Ex) abilities and some don't. However thank you for linking the 3.0 SRD as I've been looking for one pretty much everywhere :smallsmile:

As for lacking the Dire Animal shapes until level 12, yeah that is a bit of a pain, but my DM is letting me choose Fleshraker Dinosaur since I whined enough about it :smallbiggrin:

One big remaining question however

Does Monster Progression work with the 3.0 Wild Shape forms, or do you need to go out and pick a new animal each time you increase HD by a considerable amount? If it doesn't then I'll propose that to my DM as he's all for time-saving methods if I can just upgrade my current form rather than trying to find a new one.

[lesser_minion]

Actually, Wild Shape gets worse. 3.0 also defines an animal as being either a real, historical animal, or a giant version of one. Some of the better choices for druid wild shape in 3.5 are defined as 'beasts' in 3.0 which puts them off-limits.

It actually looks like the 3.0 Ranger gets a better deal turning into animals than the 3.0 druid (they actually get the spell Polymorph Self - which, among other things, lets you change form again unlimited times during the spell's duration and doesn't have any form restrictions whatsoever).

ericgrau is also right to bring up tricks - all an animal companion will do unless you train it carefully is follow you around and attack creatures who attack you.

Also, my copy of the 3.0 PHB also has the exact paragraph that Oslecamo quoted - it's in the Polymorph Other spell description, which gets referenced by the Polymorph Self spell description that Wild Shape references. Looking at the inside cover, it looks like my PHB is in the second print run, so it may have been updated with all of the erratas.

EDIT - ninja'd regarding the whole form limitations thing.

[Eldariel]

That explains it then. Go with the newer ruling, obviously - no 8-Con for U!

[Oslecamo]

That explains it then. Go with the newer ruling, obviously - no 8-Con for U!

Indeed, my own PHB 3.0 I've dug out from the pile also doesn't give Ex abilities or more life. It seems like Wotc quickly realized and corrected this mistake, for once.

Shame they commited the error again in 3.5.

[lesser_minion]

In hindsight, it could also explain the weird animal/beast distinction. One that apparently the 3.5 designers saw no reason for, and cut, leading to things like druids turning into dinosaurs.

Although as it looks like the print run I'm reading was published in 2002, I could dispute the whole 'corrected quickly' comment.

[Cedrass]

Everything has pretty much been said, but I'll add this:

1- You will need to cast Awaken on your Animal Companion. In 3.5 it isn't something you can do (keeping you Animal compagnion even if he is awakened) but in 3.0 it is. It doesn't change the type of the creature, or anything, it just adds Int, Cha and 2 HD.

2- You can decide to let an animal go when it gets too weak and cast Animal Friendship on an other one. Or even keep the compagnion and befriend an other one. Cast Awaken on both of them, and they can actually team up in battle, use the Aid action and such.

It's been a while, but I remember my Duids in 3.0 as being much more of a support character than anything else. Some healing thee, some crowd control there, and maybe some damage there too.

Oh, and here's the Awaken description from 3.0:

Awaken

Transmutation
Level: Drd 5
Components: V, S, DF, XP
Casting Time: One day
Range: Touch
Target: Animal or tree touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The character awakens a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, the character must make a Will save (DC 10 + the target's HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).

The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward the character. The character has no special empathy or connection with a creature the character awakens, although it serves the character in specific tasks or endeavors if the character can communicate the character's desires to it.

An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are all 3d6. Awakened plants gain the ability to move their limbs, roots, vines, creepers, etc., and have senses similar to a human's.

An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD.

An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that the character knows, plus one additional language that the character knows per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).

XP Cost: 250 XP.

[AngelOmnipotent]

Shameless bump, but only because my other question hasn't been answered yet:

Monster Advancement for Druid Wild Shape in 3.0, yes or no?

[lesser_minion]

I'm pretty sure the spell description says something like "average member of race", so I'd say no.

You also keep your own hit die related statistics in any event.

[AngelOmnipotent]

I'm pretty sure the spell description says something like "average member of race", so I'd say no.

You also keep your own hit die related statistics in any event.

That's a thought - keeping your own HD related statistics. Does that mean the DC of, for example, poison would increase, or would it stay at the original? Also does that mean that with my Large Wild Shape I can't turn into a Large Badger for example?

Also does monster advancement apply even in 3.5? It's the one part of Wild Shape I've never really grasped.

[Starbuck_II]

That's a thought - keeping your own HD related statistics. Does that mean the DC of, for example, poison would increase, or would it stay at the original? Also does that mean that with my Large Wild Shape I can't turn into a Large Badger for example?

Also does monster advancement apply even in 3.5? It's the one part of Wild Shape I've never really grasped.

Yes, poison DC is based on HD and Con so if either are different than target animal: then the DC changes.
Since in 3.0 the Status spells were hours/level but 1d4 +1 up: you could raise stats using them all day (the amount is hard to say though).

[AngelOmnipotent]

Yes, poison DC is based on HD and Con so if either are different than target animal: then the DC changes.
Since in 3.0 the Status spells were hours/level but 1d4 +1 up: you could raise stats using them all day (the amount is hard to say though).

Not unless I can convince my DM to let me add those spells to the Druid spell list. (Yeah they're not on there, shocking isn't it.)

As for the turning into a Large Badger... as far as I'm away you can in 3.5 if you figure it out from the Monster Advancement rules, but what about 3.0? I imagine that I wouldn't be able to and would have to search out Large animals to shift into - is that correct?

[lesser_minion]

I think so - the big point is that you can't apply monster advancement to the creature you polymorph into - the same applies to 3.0 Wild Shape.

[Darrin]

Not unless I can convince my DM to let me add those spells to the Druid spell list. (Yeah they're not on there, shocking isn't it.)


Masters of the Wild has Might of the Oak (+4 Str, -2 Dex), Persistence of the Waves (+4 Con, -2 Str), and Speed of the Wind (+4 Dex, -2 Con). Unfortunately, duration is 10 min/level... not as good as 1 hour/level (3.0), but better than 1 min/level (3.5).

[Runeclaw]

The lack of Natural Spell is actually a fairly minor issue, since the Wilding Clasp doesn't exist in 3.0

I'm not familiar with the Wilding Clasp, why is it so great?

[Myrmex]

The 3.0 druid is considerably weaker than the 3.5 druid (ie, an actual playable class, not monstrous cheese that is three characters in one). I recommend the 3.0 splat book Tome & Blood, for mages, because it has metamagic rods in it. These are more expensive than in 3.5, but you can get a lesser rod of maximize for +5 str, dex, and con all day with 3.0 Animal's Attribute spells.

Don't expect turning into an animal to be that spectacular. Most of the time, it will let you be a caster who is also a bat, or maybe a rhino to flank with the rogue.

The Ranger is a horrible trap class- don't do it. It gets half the bonuses to favored enemies it does in 3.5, it's precision damage (so it won't affect undead, etc), and you get only one TWF feat, which you need Ambidexterity for anyway.


What I stated is in the PHB and not changed in MoTW IIRC. Apparently they applied a 3.0 erratum for it too (I can't remember that ever happening, but it's been so long...), but by 3.0 PHB, it works as I stated.

I have a 3.0 PHB with me, and it most definitely does not. Polymorph was actually a pretty ok spell in 3.0, compared to the stinking cheese oozing from it in 3.5.

The mage-y splatbook errat'd it slightly, but it wasn't that big of a change. Definitely not "Hey get pounce and rake and rend and trip and grapple and poison!".

[grinner666]

I'm not familiar with the Wilding Clasp, why is it so great?

The Wilding Clasp is a magic item that you can attach to another magic item; you can then use that magic item while in animal form via Wild Shape (and Shapechange? I forget). Worse, there is no limit on number of items you can use Wilding Clasps upon. It's one of the things that send Druids from ridiculously powerful to ludicrously godlike.

:smallsmile:

[lesser_minion]

I was under the impression that Rangers got Ambidexterity for free as well. They had to pay for Improved TWF, and overall you're right that the class was a lot weaker (apart from Polymorph Self, I guess, but sorcerer/wizard types can do that a lot earlier)

[Crazy Scot]

Again, most of the questions and debates raging on this forum can be solved by a simple answer: ask the DM. See how he interprets the answer and then work around it.


One big remaining question however

Does Monster Progression work with the 3.0 Wild Shape forms, or do you need to go out and pick a new animal each time you increase HD by a considerable amount? If it doesn't then I'll propose that to my DM as he's all for time-saving methods if I can just upgrade my current form rather than trying to find a new one.

As to this, there is actually a section in MotW pertaining to this. There is a ritual spelled out on page 37 under the heading "Improving A Companion", and the next topic covers using the "Awaken" spell on one. I would recommend just taking a close look at this chapter, as it will probably answer most of your questions about your furry/scaled friends.

Also, on pages 10-12, it goes into a much more in depth look at wildshaping, and specifically states that the rules presented there supercede the rules presented in the PHB. On page 11, left column, 4th paragraph, you will see that it specifically states that you do heal as if you rested a night, but don't get temporary ability damage healed. Again, I would recommend a good reading of this section as well.