Wolverine: Explain the Appeal

[Muz]

Please don't take this as flaming, I'm actually just asking to know. I've never read X-Men comics (or even watched the animated series). My only exposure to him is via Hugh Jackman's portrayal. From what I can tell, he's by far the most popular X-Men character.

Personally, I don't get the appeal. So, please, teach me. I want to learn. :smallsmile:

[chiasaur11]

He's anti social, looks cool, and kills dudes.

Plus he gets the best one liners.

Me, I prefer Nightcrawler. Cyclops can be pretty good too on the rare occasion he's written well. Whedon made him freaking SCARY.

[Cheesegear]

From what I can tell, he's by far the most popular X-Men character.

I'd say you're definately wrong. My bet would be Deadpool. Possibly Cyclops. Or naked Emma Frosts. :smallwink:

The only people who really like Wolverine (in my experience) are those who have not read the comics. His portrayal in the movies is not far wrong from his portrayal in the comics. He has zero character to define him from every other machismo-laden action-hero that ever lived. Which, unfortunately is what most movie-goers go to see action movies for. Which is why Wolverine is so popular.

The only 'character' that Wolverine ever had was defined by Sabretooth. Without Sabretooth, Wolverine is "Stock Killer #6".

And they killed off Sabretooth. What morons!


Originally posted by Chiasaur
He's anti social, looks cool, and kills dudes.

Exactly. He's about as cliché as you can get. Which is why everyone I know hates him. If a mission goes wrong, nine out of ten times, it's Wolverine's fault, because he's a douche and didn't want to listen to his leader/boss.
Wolverine is little more than a super attack-dog. With more ex-girlfriends than you can shake a stick at.

And as of Civil War, it's pretty much blatently pointed out to us that the writer's will never, ever kill him off. Ever.

X-Men: Evoloution gave him some character. He's a role-model to the kids, and an excellent combat teacher. Instead of the comics in which he's an idiot, and all his 'friends' hate him.
And he's paired with Steve Rogers/Captain America and fought Nazis at Auschwitz to liberate Magneto. Yeah. Steve and Logan are best friends. That actually says a lot about the character of Wolverine in Evoloution.
...Except Evoloution isn't canon. Shame.

[kpenguin]

The only people who really like Wolverine (in my experience) are those who have not read the comics.

You need to meet more comic fans. I know of at least one comic fan who is a diehard Wolverine fan.

[averagejoe]

He is (less so in the films, admittedly, and maybe less so in the modern comics. I haven't known a lot of X-men since I was in grade school) the most anti-heroic of the X-men, and that gains him cool points right there. Plus his whole claw thing, back in the day, was unbelievably cool. They're super-accessible (never needs to reach into his boot or anything), can cut through pretty much anything, and the claw aspect is just neat.

I also happen to think that a lot of his coolness came from the fact that he is, in a lot of ways, the weakest X-man. Besides the claw thing and his scent ability (which seems to come and go depending on the writer) he only has super-staying-alive powers, which don't tend to be very offensive. Heck, he was a lot weaker back then; he didn't have all the martial arts stuff, and his regenerative ability wasn't all instantaneous, he could still be reasonably taken out of fights. I claim this aspect added to his coolness because he is basically the underdog in most fights, and he has few things to rely on besides his tough attitude, tenacity, and his hard core scrappy fighting.

[Tensu]

Claws are awesome. That's really are there is too it.

well, regeneration is awesome too...

[Fri]

Back then he's THE antihero on X-Men. Dark, angsty, broody, guy always get the chicks.

[averagejoe]

Back then he's THE antihero on X-Men. Dark, angsty, broody, guy always get the chicks.

Don't forget lone-wolfish.

[WitchSlayer]

Because he's Marvel's super-powered Batman who kills people and has silly hair.

[The Neoclassic]

Has no one else mentioned the shallow, obvious reason? Hugh Jackman is a sexy man, particularly as Wolverine. :smallwink:

[Athaniar]

See also this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WolverinePublicity).

[averagejoe]

Has no one else mentioned the shallow, obvious reason? Hugh Jackman is a sexy man, particularly as Wolverine. :smallwink:

This comes pre-Hugh Jackman. I was in high school when the movies came out; I didn't know much about X-Men except in elementary school.

[Starscream]

I've never seen the appeal of Wolverine myself. He's five foot two, egotistical, acts like a jerk and yet somehow people still flock to see him.

Don't you see? He the Tom Cruise of Marvel Comics!

I also never got why he's treated as such a badass. Think about it; how many of the other X-Men characters couldn't take him.

Storm would just zap him with lighting (adamantium conducts electricity, and he couldn't even reach her unless Colossus throws him as usual). Magneto would pick him up by his skeleton and toss him into orbit. Nightcrawler could embed him in a wall. Rogue just needs to touch him. Cyclops just needs to look at him. Emma, Jean or Professor X just need to think at him...

Guy's a wuss. Sure, he'd heal from all these injuries eventually, but so what? When he was introduced in the mid seventies the whole "gruff anti-hero who plays by his own rules" shtick was new, but since then it has been done to death. He's such a cliche that even his parody (Lobo) has been parodied (Lunatik).

And now he's getting his own movie. Fair enough, and at least Deadpool will be in it. Now there's an antihero done right (he said in a completely unbiased manner while glancing at his avatar).

One problem though. The movie will feature Wolverine, Sabertooth, Deadpool and Silver Fox. Know what all four of those characters have in common? Healing factors. Why do I get the feeling we are in for some of the most pointless fight scenes in movie history? They are going to battle for twenty minutes and wind up without a scratch to show for it.

[Loch]

A better question. What is the appeal to X-Men. fullstop.

I'm more a DC guy.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Well, as I don't follow American comics much these days, all I can go on is early stuff like the series when he went to Japan.

The early character - what I can remember of it - was very good. I suspect that the writers started overexposing him when he became popular.

[User Name]

I think Marvel just isn't willing to stop with the Wolverine stuff until he's been wrung dry. He's been pulling in mad dough since the early 90s when putting a picture of him on a book's cover was guaranteed to make it sell out, even if it was a two frame cameo. Blame the action junkies.

[Felixaar]

Two words: Hugh. Jackman.

Seriously though, Wolverine is generally the gruff, arrogant-but-justified 'stay out of my way' guy who kills everyone and cant be stopped by anything. For some reason, people love that. Not me, however, though he's not bad in the movies.

And yeah, Wolverine wasn't the most popular character in the comics, but in the movies - which are what most people go by these days, canon or not, he was certainly the most popular. And I'm talking popular on a "larger percentage of the world enjoys him most" idea, not a "actually deserving of it, fans with real knowledge agree" idea.

Waaaay to overexposed though.

I miss the professor.

[Xefas]

Well, my first experience with Wolverine was in X-Men: Evolution, which, as Cheesegear above me noted, gave him a good bit of character. He was kind of a grizzled with-a-heart-of-gold doesn't-know-what-he's-doing-but-wants-to-set-a-good-example-despite-his-grim-past-so-the-children-will-have-a-chance-of-a-better-life-than-he-had guy.

You must also factor in the fact that, as a kid, he's very easy to emulate. Stick pretty much 3 of anything between your fingers, and BAM, you're Wolverine. His claws are a timeless icon; more so when represented by butter knives your mother has told you to set the table with.

My favorite X-men mutant is still Gambit. Not for any particularly deep character trait or bit of backstory, nor his albeit totally badass exploding card power. No, its his accent, and the combination of suave and ballsiness he displayed while totally hitting on Rogue in the 90s cartoon. She could have snapped him like a twig, but that bastard knew how to get his cherié on.

[User Name]

OP, why did you write this thread the day after the Wolverine movie was leaked onto the torrent sites? Is it because you are a pirate?! J'accuse, Muz!

(my torrent will be done in a few minutes)

[WitchSlayer]

I've never seen the appeal of Wolverine myself. He's five foot two, egotistical, acts like a jerk and yet somehow people still flock to see him.

Don't you see? He the Tom Cruise of Marvel Comics!

I also never got why he's treated as such a badass. Think about it; how many of the other X-Men characters couldn't take him.

Storm would just zap him with lighting (adamantium conducts electricity, and he couldn't even reach her unless Colossus throws him as usual). Magneto would pick him up by his skeleton and toss him into orbit. Nightcrawler could embed him in a wall. Rogue just needs to touch him. Cyclops just needs to look at him. Emma, Jean or Professor X just need to think at him...

Guy's a wuss. Sure, he'd heal from all these injuries eventually, but so what? When he was introduced in the mid seventies the whole "gruff anti-hero who plays by his own rules" shtick was new, but since then it has been done to death. He's such a cliche that even his parody (Lobo) has been parodied (Lunatik).

And now he's getting his own movie. Fair enough, and at least Deadpool will be in it. Now there's an antihero done right (he said in a completely unbiased manner while glancing at his avatar).

One problem though. The movie will feature Wolverine, Sabertooth, Deadpool and Silver Fox. Know what all four of those characters have in common? Healing factors. Why do I get the feeling we are in for some of the most pointless fight scenes in movie history? They are going to battle for twenty minutes and wind up without a scratch to show for it.

I just saw a leaked version of said movie.
I... I don't think you'll like Deadpool.

[Yulian]

I also happen to think that a lot of his coolness came from the fact that he is, in a lot of ways, the weakest X-man. Besides the claw thing and his scent ability (which seems to come and go depending on the writer) he only has super-staying-alive powers, which don't tend to be very offensive. Heck, he was a lot weaker back then; he didn't have all the martial arts stuff, and his regenerative ability wasn't all instantaneous,

That's very much the current problem.

Initially, he was the skill-guy. His powers kept him alive, but when he took a major hit, he'd be down for a good while while he healed. So in a fight with people who could fly or hurl bolts of energy, he had to be the smart and vicious fighter type. The one who can get in close to score a hit with claws that can cut through anything.

They also played up the mesh of his hyper-senses and skills. His senses weren't nonsensical, he had to know how to use and interpret what he found.

He was a professional soldier, tracker, pilot, linguist, and so on. He was used for his skills and non-combat abilities a lot more.

Before it became such a cliche', the notion of his past gave him some weight. It was clear that something terrible (or several terrible things) had happened in his past, something that psychologically wrecked the "tough guy" so much that he was found wandering, naked and broken, in the Canadian wilderness where the Hudsons found him.

Frankly, I preferred the idea that when he unsheathed his claws at Heather and James it was the first time he ever remembered seeing them. He was shocked, he felt violated, he didn't know what had been done to him and why.

But that thread has been well and truly lost nowadays. His healing factor has been cranked well past any Power Creep explanation. I mean, Nitro blew all the flesh off of his skeleton, and Logan somehow managed to come back to fight the guy shortly thereafter.

It'd be nice to see him take a beating he has to actually recover from every once in a while. Used to be that he'd be portrayed as really hurting when he'd fight through massive burns or multiple gunshots. Heck, back right around the Mutant Massacre storyline, he fled from Scalphunter because he was exposed to too much gunfire and jumped off a bridge and was actually concerned hitting the water below would severely hurt him (Rogue caught him).

But the "baddest of the bad" image has pretty much overwhelmed what the character used to be and all subtleties have been lost.

- Yulian

[thubby]

I'm not a big wolverine fan and i agree with Yulian. unlike some xmen *looks at jean and storm*, he didn't just decide to win, he earned it.

i also just liked the way he moved (that's a big seller for me :P). flight does a terrible thing to a character, it completely removes their acrobatics.

[smithrdn]

I am not the right chap to solve this probelm

[horngeek]

The simple reason is that he can survive almost anything. His regeneration is on the level (and this has happened) where he can regenerate from a single leftover cell.

Also? He has metal claws. AWESOME.

[Cheesegear]

Seriously though, Wolverine is generally the gruff, arrogant-but-justified 'stay out of my way' guy who kills everyone and cant be stopped by anything. For some reason, people love that. Not me, however, though he's not bad in the movies.

And yeah, Wolverine wasn't the most popular character in the comics, but in the movies - which are what most people go by these days, canon or not, he was certainly the most popular. And I'm talking popular on a "larger percentage of the world enjoys him most" idea, not a "actually deserving of it, fans with real knowledge agree" idea.

That's what I said. The wider world, has only seen the movies, since 'Comics are for kids/nerds.' nobody ever reads the source material. I'm thankful my Dad - at least on some level - understands that. Since he has Incredible Hulk issues from the 60s. All the good ones got sold. :smallfrown:


Stuff that Yulian wrote

Again, kind of like what I wrote, but far more eloquent. Wolverine's original incarnation is pretty much exactly like how he is presented in Evolution.

I like to think a lot of the writers working for Marvel would very much like to kill him - or perhaps de-power him. In fact, back in the 90s (Fatal Attraction - Mangeto does something better than what Starscream described above), he pretty much became exactly like Sabretooth right before he was killed. Again, I'd like to stress that getting rid of Sabretooth was a bad move.

Wolverine is old news in the comic-verse. A lot of people have claws (retractable or otherwise), and many, many, many more have Regeneration capabilties. He is a character without character. There's lots of 'badasses' around now. Hell, Daken is a carbon-copy, except better.

If you're looking for badasses; My vote goes to anyone from Six Pack (except Deadpool :smalltongue:), Frank Castle, Luke Cage or Nick Fury. Those guys at least have character.

[Revlid]

Deadpool is in his movie.

[Starscream]

I just saw a leaked version of said movie.
I... I don't think you'll like Deadpool.

Yeah, I heard that. I'm going to wait and see it in theaters though. It won't be the first time Hollywood has ruined a character I like.

I suppose Deadpool is kind of a hard sell, anyway. He is very much a comics specific character, because he constantly comments on the cliches of the medium.

The last thing the producers would want in their brainless action movie is a guy mocking brainless action movies.


In fact, back in the 90s (Fatal Attraction - Mangeto does something better than what Starscream described above), he pretty much became exactly like Sabretooth right before he was killed.

You mean the "Sucking the adamantium right out his pores" thing? Yeah, that was pretty cool. Still don't know why he didn't just kill him, though.

[Kreistor]

To understand Wolverine, you have to understand the Comics Code. UNtil the 1950's, there were no restrictions on comics. So you got characters and events that could happen in any movie. Along came a guy named McCarthy. Senator McCarthy started hunting Communism in the various medias, and though his assault on the movie industry was his most visible effort, comics got the treatment, too. They were being accused of inspiring violence due to the violence in their comics, much as some blame video games now. In response, the comics industry created the Code in order to provide a limit to what comics could be.

Instead of a grading system, they put hard limits on everything -- heroes, villains, violence, and so on. And thus comics really took a beating. Readership dropped, it lost any appeal to the adult market, and really had little relevance to the real world.

Along comes Marvel. Marvel pushes the edges, and experiments in areas that no one else probed. They came out with Fantastic Four, and used HUman Torch as an experiement as a superhero that wasn't perfect. He made mistakes and had problems. It worked. It appealed. So they came out with a new superhero that took that theme and made it the focus of thecomic, and so we get Spiderman. We also got the Hulk... a Superhero that had no control over his powers, and blurred the line with villainy, avoiding the comic code by simply making certain he never went to far, by accident or luck.

For any superhero, they create one-shot villains that come and then go. Wolverine was one of those. He fought Hulk, lost, and we expect never to hear from him again. But Marvel creates the X-men. The inital team doesn't work out well, but it reforms without Magneto and focuses on how the world would react to super powered people who really were just people with extraordinary powers, instead of Boy Scouts that couldn't be hurt. They decided to push the envelope again.

They wanted a hero that was darker, that was willing to do illegal things, like kill, in order to ensure voctory. They needed someoen with lethal weaponry, anger issues, and a pessimistic outlook. Someone brought up Wolerine, and they made him into what they needed.

Wolverine was the first anti-hero in comics, since the Comic Code came into effect. There had been others, but they'd been massacred by the fear the McCarthy era government had put into the industry. But it was 20 years later, and MCarthy style politics were long gone. No one cared much anymore. So even though Wolverine might have been right on the edge, there was no one paying attention to complain. And so he survived, and the X-men became popular. Wolverine was popular because there was no one else like him. Others came in time, though fewer from DC than Marvel.

The success of Wolverine lead to DC attempting something new. With the Code in question, they wondered if they could break the Code by not breaking the Code. Reading the fine print, they determined that comics were defined very strictly, righ t down to the paper and ink being used. If they didn't use low quality paper, bound it differently, and then sold them only by order with a no return policy (instead of shipping bulk to corner stores and taking unsold copies back), they thought the book wouldn't qualify as a comic and could avoid the code, and they could do whatever they wanted. Thus came Camelot 3000, which lead to the Dark KNight Returns, Sin City, and so on. Camelot 3000 wasn't a great story, but it was new: a hero turns traitor, dies uselessly, and sex became a part of the story (all disallowed under the code). Nobody blinked. I think it helped that it wsa the story of King Arthur, retold in a future time. Arthurian legend is taught in schools, and is important for all children at some point, so how could someone complain about nothing more than what children were already being taught?

The Code still exists. You can still see it on the corner of all comics that comply. But it was always a voluntary rule: no one was forced to produce to it. It was only really important to get through McCarthy era politics. Wolverine was a step on the path to escape the Code, and like the others that blazed that path, he wound up with a certain popularity. He's in good company.

[Lappy9000]

Also? He has friggin' adamantium claws. AWESOME.Fixed it for you :smallbiggrin:

[Verruckt]

Firstly, without Wolverine we wouldn't have the opportunity to make fun of Wovlerine:

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w22/Jerisalem/1234330832877.jpg

Secondly, without Wolverine we wouldn't have that issue of Exiles wherein Hyperion disintigrates him down to a smoking skeleton with a glance, and I'm pretty sure that's the closest I'm ever going to get to seeing Superman carelessly incinerate someone I don't like.

[xPANCAKEx]

the best parody i've seen of wolverine is in The Boys called groundhawk... he stands round, trying to be menacing, and uttering the same line over and over and over and over.

that comic is one long brilliant excercise in parody - just approach it with an open mind and don't take it seriously and you'll soon fall in love.... its garth ennis for christ's sake! It was never going to be serious

Verrukt - he once again got disintergrated in his civil war stuff too

[Ascension]

Firstly, without Wolverine we wouldn't have the opportunity to make fun of Wovlerine:

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w22/Jerisalem/1234330832877.jpg

I've seen that before, but I can't remember where. BEST. SYLLABUS. EVER.

[snoopy13a]

:

The only people who really like Wolverine (in my experience) are those who have not read the comics.

X-Men: Evoloution gave him some character. He's a role-model to the kids, and an excellent combat teacher. Instead of the comics in which he's an idiot, and all his 'friends' hate him.


When I was reading the X-Men comics (a long time ago, reading the X-Men line of the early 90s), Wolverine had his own comic. If a character has his own comic, he is rather popular. Additionally, he was a role-model to the younger X-Men before X-Men:Evolution. During this time, Jubilee was a sort of sidekick to him (this was also highlighted in the early 90s TV show). This has been part of his character for a long time and they threw it into the movie with Rogue as his sort of sidekick.

Now, I haven't read any X-Men comics in like 15 years so I have no idea what is happening now but to say that no comic readers (past or present) like Wolverine is wrong and to say that he was only a mentor in the X-Men: Evolution show is wrong as well.

As for my favorite X-Man, I'm not saying :smalltongue:

[KnightDisciple]

....
X-Men: Evoloution gave him some character. He's a role-model to the kids, and an excellent combat teacher. Instead of the comics in which he's an idiot, and all his 'friends' hate him.
And he's paired with Steve Rogers/Captain America and fought Nazis at Auschwitz to liberate Magneto. Yeah. Steve and Logan are best friends. That actually says a lot about the character of Wolverine in Evoloution.
...Except Evoloution isn't canon. Shame.

Evolution reminded me of his earlier 90's cartoon days, really. It balanced his "loner" attitude with the fact that he seems to still want to help the group. He's less of the "don't listen to Cyclops" and more of the "make snide comments at Cyclops". He also had at least some character development (in both Evo and the 90's).
The early comic days of Wolverine are what gave us the Fastball Special in the first place.
I dunno. I'm just old enough that my memories of Wolverine being cool were because he wasn't unkillable and never played on teams. It was because he was part of a team, and just happened to be one of the cooler members, you know?

[Ascension]

During this time, Jubilee was a sort of sidekick to him (this was also highlighted in the early 90s TV show). This has been part of his character for a long time and they threw it into the movie with Rogue as his sort of sidekick.

He picks up a lot of young female sidekicks, actually. I thought it was kind of cute with Jubilee, but it just gets creepy sometimes, especially as they keep retconning his actual age to make him older and older...

[Muz]

OP, why did you write this thread the day after the Wolverine movie was leaked onto the torrent sites? Is it because you are a pirate?! J'accuse, Muz!

(my torrent will be done in a few minutes)

Mais non! Je ne suis pas un pirate! ...Okay, that's all the French I can manage these days. But it WAS triggered by reading stories about it, I admit. I'm not interested enough in the character to see the movie, though, pirated or not.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I hadn't realized he wasn't always an instant-healer. I also can understand the appeal of a character with an unknown past (though as Yulian alluded to, if stretched too far, that can just get annoying).

Now I'm suddenly thinking of beefs I have with various super-healing characters in fiction, but that's probably best left to another thread. :smallsmile:


To understand Wolverine, you have to understand the Comics Code. (Lots of cogent and interesting stuff follows.)

:smallbiggrin: Thanks, Kreistor! I didn't know any of that stuff. I think you win the thread. :smallsmile:

[chiasaur11]

That's what I said. The wider world, has only seen the movies, since 'Comics are for kids/nerds.' nobody ever reads the source material. I'm thankful my Dad - at least on some level - understands that. Since he has Incredible Hulk issues from the 60s. All the good ones got sold. :smallfrown:



Again, kind of like what I wrote, but far more eloquent. Wolverine's original incarnation is pretty much exactly like how he is presented in Evolution.

I like to think a lot of the writers working for Marvel would very much like to kill him - or perhaps de-power him. In fact, back in the 90s (Fatal Attraction - Mangeto does something better than what Starscream described above), he pretty much became exactly like Sabretooth right before he was killed. Again, I'd like to stress that getting rid of Sabretooth was a bad move.

Wolverine is old news in the comic-verse. A lot of people have claws (retractable or otherwise), and many, many, many more have Regeneration capabilties. He is a character without character. There's lots of 'badasses' around now. Hell, Daken is a carbon-copy, except better.

If you're looking for badasses; My vote goes to anyone from Six Pack (except Deadpool :smalltongue:), Frank Castle, Luke Cage or Nick Fury. Those guys at least have character.

DC has some 1A badasses too.

Deadshot, Amanda Waller, Bronze Tiger (Heck, anyone who's done a long term gig with the Suicide Squad), and the single most badass man in comics, Sgt. Frank Rock.

Ah, comics.

[snoopy13a]

He picks up a lot of young female sidekicks, actually. I thought it was kind of cute with Jubilee, but it just gets creepy sometimes, especially as they keep retconning his actual age to make him older and older...

What is his age up to now? I've been out of the X-Men loop for a long time so I don't know. I believe when I was into it that the story was he started off as a Canadian special ops soldier for NATO (believe alongside Sabertooth, among others) fighting against bozos like Omega Red but he definitely post-WWII. He then underwent the metal claws things, hooked up with Alpha Flight, etc, etc.

I'm pretty sure that he wasn't older than Professor X and Magneto at the time.

The Wolverine movie appears to be full of retconning, even to a casual, out of the loop fan like myself. Alpha Flight seems to be thrown out the window in favor of some group that includes Cyclops and Gambit???

[chiasaur11]

What is his age up to now? I've been out of the X-Men loop for a long time so I don't know. I believe when I was into it that the story was he started off as a Canadian special ops soldier for NATO (believe alongside Sabertooth, among others) fighting against bozos like Omega Red but he definitely post-WWII. He then underwent the metal claws things, hooked up with Alpha Flight, etc, etc.

I'm pretty sure that he wasn't older than Professor X and Magneto at the time.

The Wolverine movie appears to be full of retconning, even to a casual, out of the loop fan like myself. Alpha Flight seems to be thrown out the window in favor of some group that includes Cyclops and Gambit???

Now?
He's over a hundred. Also, in the continuity of the excellent current Power Pack minis, he met Jack Power and Franklin Richards when he was a kid due to them goofing off with Reed's time machine.

[Ascension]

What is his age up to now? I've been out of the X-Men loop for a long time so I don't know. I believe when I was into it that the story was he started off as a Canadian special ops soldier for NATO (believe alongside Sabertooth, among others) fighting against bozos like Omega Red but he definitely post-WWII. He then underwent the metal claws things, hooked up with Alpha Flight, etc, etc.

It's been a while since I've read Origin, but Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_history_of_Wolverine) says he was born in the 19th century. He definitely predates WWI now.

[User Name]

Mais non! Je ne suis pas un pirate! ...Okay, that's all the French I can manage these days. But it WAS triggered by reading stories about it, I admit. I'm not interested enough in the character to see the movie, though, pirated or not.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sure thing. :smallwink:

If anyone is on the fence about it, the scenes with unfinished CGI are hysterical. You know that millions of dollars are being spent to impress you but what you see looks like a video game with missing texture files. That and the wires and the green screens on unexpected places... I think I enjoyed this more than I would the finished product.

[snoopy13a]

I think we may have gotten a little sidetracked.

Anyway, I like Wolverine but he was never my favorite X-Man. Actually, looking back, it is surprising to remember how many X-Men I didn't like (Cyclops, Gambit, Psylocke, Rogue, Storm).

Still, I wonder if there is a blacklash among the truly hard-core comic readers against Wolverine because he is a "fanboy" favorite.

[Ascension]

Still, I wonder if there is a blacklash among the truly hard-core comic readers against Wolverine because he is a "fanboy" favorite.

This is why. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WolverinePublicity) It's impossible to escape him. He's everywhere. I kind of like him, but his omnipresence ruins things. He's even managed to get his genetics in the Dark Avengers!

The X-Men closest to my heart will always be the 90's animated version. That was a good show, Wolverine and all.

Wolvie also hasn't really been bad in New Avengers. I don't really consider him a necessary part of the team, but he doesn't detract from it.

[Oslecamo]

And they killed off Sabretooth. What morons!


Hey, it's not like they aren't going to bring him back to life sooner or later like half of the other dead guys right?

As for the main topic:

Wolverine: badass comando full of one-liners with no trouble to kill.

All other X-men:either emo teenagers or "let's save the world with love and friendship" teenagers.

Wolverine kinda stands out in the middle of that. Really stands out.

[snoopy13a]

This is why. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WolverinePublicity) It's impossible to escape him. He's everywhere. I kind of like him, but his omnipresence ruins things. He's even managed to get his genetics in the Dark Avengers!

The X-Men closest to my heart will always be the 90's animated version. That was a good show, Wolverine and all.

Wolvie also hasn't really been bad in New Avengers. I don't really consider him a necessary part of the team, but he doesn't detract from it.

That's typical comic book company behavior though. Overexpose a popular character until people don't like him anymore. I'm really glad I'm not a comic book fan now. Between the arrogant writers who are willing to kill off long time popular characters or change their personality to sell a couple more books and the constant ret-conning and relauching, I'd go nuts.

I agree about the 90s animated version. That was when I got into X-Men.

As for my favorite X-Man:

It's Jubilee of all people. That's stems largely from my age from I started to watch the X-Men cartoon and read the X-Men comics (not the Uncanny X-Men, the second book added in the early 90s). Anyway, I'm guessing that less than 1% of X-Man fans have Jubilee as their favorite.

[GoC]

The simple reason is that he can survive almost anything. His regeneration is on the level (and this has happened) where he can regenerate from a single leftover cell.

Which is stupid and untrue.
Whoever said that (was it Professor X or someone?) must have been mistaken as this is contradicted in almost panel of every comic.

[Sholos]

Which is stupid and untrue.
Whoever said that (was it Professor X or someone?) must have been mistaken as this is contradicted in almost panel of every comic.

I believe it was an idiot comic writer who made it happen.

[Starscream]

Hey, it's not like they aren't going to bring him back to life sooner or later like half of the other dead guys right?

Yeah, that's one reason I'm more into DC these days. Both companies think that the afterlife gives out frequent guest discounts, but Marvel is particularly blatant. How many times has Jean alone kicked the bucket?

I'm not against the idea of dead characters returning, if it is done well.

The death of Superman was a good example. They made a big event out of it. They killed him dramatically and excitingly. They showed the aftermath with funerals and tributes. They left the number one selling superhero of all time dead for a whole freakin' year, and then presented us with four imposters so we could debate which one was real.

Meanwhile Marvel resurrects Bucky. Bucky!!! Was there anyone who was heartbroken because of the decades BUCKY spent dead? Were there pro-Bucky petitions and clubs? Which brilliant writer decided that the secret to increasing sales was Bucky?!

Help, help, I can't stop typing "Bucky"!

[snoopy13a]

The simple reason is that he can survive almost anything. His regeneration is on the level (and this has happened) where he can regenerate from a single leftover cell.



If this were true, he'd be like a starfish.

Evil Villian: "Ha, Ha, Ha, Wolverine. I managed to use a super-powered laser to cut off your arm despite the adamantium skeleton. Ha, Ha, Ha"

*Severed Arm regenerates into Wolverine clone*

Evil Villian: "What! Now's there's two of them!"

Or even worse:

Red Cross: "Hello Wolverine, would you like to donate blood?"

Wolverine: "Sure, why not... At least I'll get a cookie outta this"

*Wolverine donates blood. Random Guy gets infusion a few weeks later*

Random Guy: "I feel really better after that blood infusion. Whomever donated was a great guy! Hmm... I feel a bit odd. What is trying to get out of my skin?"

*Something erupts from under the Random Guy's skin. Lo and behold... it's a Wolverine Clone!!!!*

[Haven]

Because he eats atomic bombs for breakfast and shaves with porcupines! Bub.

(That was an actual line from a comic, albeit one where he's being psychically attacked, and I could show it to you if S_D was still around. :( )

Oh, and my favorite character's always been Nightcrawler! Which is why I hated in Ultimate X-Men when, after having been such a great, solid character all along (even if he did have an angsty Weapon-X backstory), he went crazy because he couldn't have sex and the mansion's porn filters were really strict, or something, and kidnapped Dazzler and told her everyone else was dead, and then tried to make that true.

[Sholos]

Ironically enough (unless you already knew this story), something like that happened to Lobo. A bunch of his blood went and regenerated a whole bunch of Lobos, and the original had to track them all down. And kill them.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Ascension]

That's typical comic book company behavior though. Overexpose a popular character until people don't like him anymore. I'm really glad I'm not a comic book fan now. Between the arrogant writers who are willing to kill off long time popular characters or change their personality to sell a couple more books and the constant ret-conning and relauching, I'd go nuts.

I already loved Marvel characters due to the animated series I watched as a child, but I actually started collecting comics around the time New Avengers started. Then I picked up Ms. Marvel when she got her ongoing, started reading Amazing Spider Man at some random point and Iron Man at the start of the Extremis storyline, followed the whole Civil War, added Mighty Avengers and The Initiative when those books came out. Despite Stark's derailment (and Iron Man has always been one of my favorite characters) I enjoyed all the books I was collecting.

Then during the whole OMD/BND debacle I swore off Marvel completely and started collecting IDW's Transformers books. Then IDW did me wrong by cutting short the -ation series and doing precious little to tie All Hail Megatron into the previously tightly maintained IDW Transformers continuity despite insisting that it was canonical. It's gotten so bad that they've announced it's going to take a four issue miniseries after AHM to try to explain its connection to canon.

In the midst of my disillusionment with IDW I heard about Dark Avengers and was intrigued, so I decided to take a gamble and buy into it. For the last couple of months I've been picking up all three of the current Avengers titles (Dark, Mighty, New) and again I'm enjoying them, but I'm too cynical now about comics to try picking up any more series. Invincible Iron Man is tempting me sorely, but I'm not buying into it yet. Maybe I'll pick up the TPBs.

So yes, this is what it's like to collect comics these days. A constant cycle of enjoyment and disillusionment. Marvel will probably tick me off again soon, and then I guess I'll start reading Dark Horse titles or something. *sigh*


It's Jubilee of all people. That's stems largely from my age from I started to watch the X-Men cartoon and read the X-Men comics (not the Uncanny X-Men, the second book added in the early 90s). Anyway, I'm guessing that less than 1% of X-Man fans have Jubilee as their favorite.

I like her too. I almost picked up the new New Warriors when I heard she was their second-in-command, but now they've already ended it. Easy come, easy go.


Yeah, that's one reason I'm more into DC these days. Both companies think that the afterlife gives out frequent guest discounts, but Marvel is particularly blatant. How many times has Jean alone kicked the bucket?

:smallsigh: Jean hasn't really died all that often. It's a trait that gets exaggerated in the cultural consciousness.

I think DC has decent heroes, but only Batman has interesting villain, and DC's power level across the board feels uncomfortably high. Not enough street level heroes, too many demigods. If I'm going to be reading a superhero title, Make Mine Marvel. :smallamused:


I'm not against the idea of dead characters returning, if it is done well.

The death of Superman was a good example. They made a big event out of it. They killed him dramatically and excitingly. They showed the aftermath with funerals and tributes. They left the number one selling superhero of all time dead for a whole freakin' year, and then presented us with four imposters so we could debate which one was real.

Really? :smallconfused: The way I see it they killed him in a pointless slugging match with a villain created solely for the purpose of killing him.


Meanwhile Marvel resurrects Bucky. Bucky!!! Was there anyone who was heartbroken because of the decades BUCKY spent dead? Were there pro-Bucky petitions and clubs? Which brilliant writer decided that the secret to increasing sales was Bucky?!

Help, help, I can't stop typing "Bucky"!

First, I wouldn't really call that a "meanwhile" since the latter event came years after the first. Second, to play the devil's advocate, bringing back Bucky gave them the chance to kill Cap and keep him dead for longer than five minutes. If you're going to take somebody like that down you need a proper successor, and Bucky is one of a very, very small group of people who can actually be accepted as that successor. It's too early to say that Steve is really, really dead, but at least it's looking hopeful.

[averagejoe]

:smallsigh: Jean hasn't really died all that often. It's a trait that gets exaggerated in the cultural consciousness.

This is a hilarious statement. I'm just saying.

[WitchSlayer]

Actually, DC does have more street levelers than Marvel does, and they, more often than not, don't have powers like Marvel street level guys do. Flash's Rogues and Lex Luthor are much more interesting than the Joker villain wise. Joker is a massively overrated villain.

[Xuincherguixe]

I think it will be awhile before Captain America comes back. It seems like they've decided he's "dead for real".
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he'll be brought back but I don't think there's a plan to.


As to Wolverines popularity? He used to be pretty cool. Doesn't really matter what sort of powers and such he had, was just an interesting character. It's the same reason Batman is popular, and Batman isn't.

[kpenguin]

Meanwhile Marvel resurrects Bucky. Bucky!!! Was there anyone who was heartbroken because of the decades BUCKY spent dead? Were there pro-Bucky petitions and clubs? Which brilliant writer decided that the secret to increasing sales was Bucky?!

Help, help, I can't stop typing "Bucky"!

Really? Bucky's revival was, to me, one of the best-handled comic book resurrections. Brubaker really did a nice job with that storyline.

[Ascension]

Actually, DC does have more street levelers than Marvel does, and they, more often than not, don't have powers like Marvel street level guys do. Flash's Rogues and Lex Luthor are much more interesting than the Joker villain wise. Joker is a massively overrated villain.

Really? :smallconfused: I guess my lack of awareness of these people comes from an ignorance of DC, but off the top of my head all that are coming to me are Batman (who has the power of being better than anyone could be without powers, no matter what they say) and his Bat-Family (who are mostly slightly more plausible than he, though not all) and that guy from the Hitman series, who actually did have powers but didn't use them much.

Also, all of Flash's rogues that I'm familiar with are strange gimmick villains. Don't get me wrong, so are most of Iron Man's, and having a strange gimmick isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm not personally aware of any that really jump out as interesting.

And I said Batman's villains, not the Joker. I agree he's overrated, but he's also not the only bad guy.

Anyway, to make a long argument very short, I've got a heavy pro-Marvel bias and a general distaste for DC's high profile heroes, and I plan to stick with Marvel except when they do really stupid things, but I'll concede that in the obscurer portions of the DC universe there may lurk really interesting characters I'm simply ignorant of due to their relatively limited exposure.

[Ravens_cry]

My only real exposure with X-men the actual comics were some black and white anthologies, from about the time when Rogue ran away from Mystique, Lockheed was introduced, and Cyclops fell in love with a girl who looked just like Jean, and Wolverines fiancée left him at the whatever the equivalent of an alter in Japan is.And reading Weapon X, whre I fell in love with those ridiculous sideburns. And I can totally see the appeal of Logan at that time.He has anti hero qualities, but he also falls in love and cares for others. As well, he isn't urban like most other antiheroes, not some street thug, he is best suited out in the wild. And out of that atrocious costume. Wolverine looked his coolest in civvies or skivvies. The only hero who could pull off flannel and blue jeans as butt kicking wear. His healing factor back then wasn't absolutely insane, to quote Mystique, even he couldn't survive a slit throat. Plus, he was Canadian. When your a Canucklehead, how cool is that? Sure, he was rude and crude, but he wasn't completely over the top.

[Jerthanis]

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I have heard over the years an enormous amount of anti-Cyclops sentiment expressed in person and on forums, but I've never understood exactly why people dislike him so much.

He's a shy and underconfident man with glasses raised away from his family, having only memory of his parents sacrificing themselves to save his brother and him. He experiences a childhood of pain until he finds a place at Xavier's school. Putting aside his psychological hangups and personal problems, he becomes their leader, an extremely selfless hero and a tactical mastermind.

Despite his psychological hangups, shyness and more attractive/richer competition, he gets the girl he falls in love with (all... what, five of them at this point?) on the pure virtue of how he's an honestly good person. He's also a math genius, having an instinctive knowledge of Trigonometry.

Why is it that a character who so embodies a nerd could be so reviled by nerds in general? Not just "I don't particularly feel one way or another", but "I like Wolverine because he tells that stuck up ******* Cyclops to shut up!" style reviled?

[chiasaur11]

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I have heard over the years an enormous amount of anti-Cyclops sentiment expressed in person and on forums, but I've never understood exactly why people dislike him so much.

He's a shy and underconfident man with glasses raised away from his family, having only memory of his parents sacrificing themselves to save his brother and him. He experiences a childhood of pain until he finds a place at Xavier's school. Putting aside his psychological hangups and personal problems, he becomes their leader, an extremely selfless hero and a tactical mastermind.

Despite his psychological hangups, shyness and more attractive/richer competition, he gets the girl he falls in love with (all... what, five of them at this point?) on the pure virtue of how he's an honestly good person. He's also a math genius, having an instinctive knowledge of Trigonometry.

Why is it that a character who so embodies a nerd could be so reviled by nerds in general? Not just "I don't particularly feel one way or another", but "I like Wolverine because he tells that stuck up ******* Cyclops to shut up!" style reviled?


You and me both. Well, Whedon might have explained it somewhat well with comments regarding the fact he'd be no fun at parties, but other than that...

Man, was Scott great in Astonishing or what? One of his better appearences to date.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I have heard over the years an enormous amount of anti-Cyclops sentiment expressed in person and on forums, but I've never understood exactly why people dislike him so much.

He's a shy and underconfident man with glasses raised away from his family, having only memory of his parents sacrificing themselves to save his brother and him. He experiences a childhood of pain until he finds a place at Xavier's school. Putting aside his psychological hangups and personal problems, he becomes their leader, an extremely selfless hero and a tactical mastermind.

Despite his psychological hangups, shyness and more attractive/richer competition, he gets the girl he falls in love with (all... what, five of them at this point?) on the pure virtue of how he's an honestly good person. He's also a math genius, having an instinctive knowledge of Trigonometry.

Why is it that a character who so embodies a nerd could be so reviled by nerds in general? Not just "I don't particularly feel one way or another", but "I like Wolverine because he tells that stuck up ******* Cyclops to shut up!" style reviled?
http://www.digitalpimponline.com/images/movie/251.jpg
More or less.

[Ascension]

In the 90s series and in the few X-Men books I've read he just comes off as blandly generic. He feels like a bad console RPG hero, more a blank slate for the audience to project themselves onto than an actual character, with his major defining characteristics being generic heroicism and his daffy love for whoever happens to be the woman in his life at the moment.

Now the embittered "I just want to be left alone" Cyclops I saw in the few Wolverine and the X-Men episodes I watched was the kind of Cyclops I could like.

EDIT: Leonardo had a sword. That made him cool. Cyclops does not have a sword. Therefore...

[LurkerInPlayground]

In the 90s series and in the few X-Men books I've read he just comes off as blandly generic. He feels like a bad console RPG hero, more a blank slate for the audience to project themselves onto than an actual character, with his major defining characteristics being generic heroicism and his daffy love for whoever happens to be the woman in his life at the moment.

Now the embittered "I just want to be left alone" Cyclops I saw in the few Wolverine and the X-Men episodes I watched was the kind of Cyclops I could like.

EDIT: Leonardo had a sword. That made him cool. Cyclops does not have a sword. Therefore...
So the natural evolution of the nerd fantasy is the blank-slate video game hero to a generic emo figure?

Sounds about right..

Just read Jerthanis's description of him. Shy and sensitive guy. Always gets the girl. Native talent and good looks. Cursed with awesome.

What you have there isn't a nerd or an underdog at all. What you have there is an imposter. A stereotypical alpha-male of generic importance to the story.

[Ravens_cry]

Maybe Cyclops is too close to heart. Even Spiderman, the most nerdly mainstream hero, is a power fantasy in the various quipage and witticism he produces. He says the things, and gets away with, what you always wanted to say to all of life's bullies.

[averagejoe]

Wait, since when was Cyclops a math genius? I just always thought it was interesting that he had a power that was actually inconvenient in some way beyond social stigma.

[snoopy13a]

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I have heard over the years an enormous amount of anti-Cyclops sentiment expressed in person and on forums, but I've never understood exactly why people dislike him so much.

He's a shy and underconfident man with glasses raised away from his family, having only memory of his parents sacrificing themselves to save his brother and him. He experiences a childhood of pain until he finds a place at Xavier's school. Putting aside his psychological hangups and personal problems, he becomes their leader, an extremely selfless hero and a tactical mastermind.

Despite his psychological hangups, shyness and more attractive/richer competition, he gets the girl he falls in love with (all... what, five of them at this point?) on the pure virtue of how he's an honestly good person. He's also a math genius, having an instinctive knowledge of Trigonometry.

Why is it that a character who so embodies a nerd could be so reviled by nerds in general? Not just "I don't particularly feel one way or another", but "I like Wolverine because he tells that stuck up ******* Cyclops to shut up!" style reviled?

Cyclops isn't the nerd. He's the Eagle Scout/Starting QB. He's the guy that is high school president, dates the homecoming queen and goes off to Princeton. But he isn't the cool jock. He isn't going off to keg parties and sleeping around. No, he's the white bread upstanding citizen. He's like Greg Marmalade and Doug Neidermeyer in Animal House. He's the guy that no one can stand. You want the Deltas like Otter, Boone, Bluto (and Wolverine) to take him down a notch or two.

[Dienekes]

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I have heard over the years an enormous amount of anti-Cyclops sentiment expressed in person and on forums, but I've never understood exactly why people dislike him so much.

\\Why is it that a character who so embodies a nerd could be so reviled by nerds in general? Not just "I don't particularly feel one way or another", but "I like Wolverine because he tells that stuck up ******* Cyclops to shut up!" style reviled?

Reminds me of something I read somewhere (if you as well remember the quote please say who, and it's from memory so it's probably off)

Guy 1: Hey, I've noticed something
Guy 2: What?
Guy 1: You ever realize that Superman is handsome, athletic, gets the girls, you know like a jock?
Guy 2: Yeah
Guy 1: And you realize how he's always beating up Lex Luthor who is an intelligent scientist who tries to fix problems with his mind? You know, like a nerd.
Guy 2: Yeah
Guy 1: So why is it that nerds are the one that buy comics?
Guy 2: Isn't it obvious? Even nerds like to see nerds get beaten up.

Same thing applies. Comics are a form of escapism. A lot of folk like the gruff, laconic, badboy Wolverine because he is not like them. And do not like Cyclops because, well, he is a bit of a nerd (with the body to back it up of course. Heaven forbid we ever have a real nerdy super hero who isn't also one of the strongest men alive)

[Jerthanis]

http://www.digitalpimponline.com/images/movie/251.jpg
More or less.

...My favorite Ninja Turtle is Leonardo... This may well be extremely true.


Wait, since when was Cyclops a math genius? I just always thought it was interesting that he had a power that was actually inconvenient in some way beyond social stigma.

It's a secondary mutant power, basically to explain how he can manage complex ricochets of his Optic Blast power without a supercomputer in his brain.


Cyclops isn't the nerd. He's the Eagle Scout/Starting QB. He's the guy that is high school president, dates the homecoming queen and goes off to Princeton. But he isn't the cool jock. He isn't going off to keg parties and sleeping around. No, he's the white bread upstanding citizen. He's like Greg Marmalade and Doug Neidermeyer in Animal House. He's the guy that no one can stand. You want the Deltas like Otter, Boone, Bluto (and Wolverine) to take him down a notch or two.

But Scott couldn't have played Football in high school because he couldn't chance losing his glasses at the wrong moment... even if he may have wanted to play football. If he had been on a nature hike as a Boy Scout and lost his glasses he would be terrified and helpless. That's what I think a lot of people just don't think about when they consider Cyclops' character... that his disability does end up seriously limiting him. There are plenty of people cursed with awesome, and Scott is a superhero, the most often cursed with awesome classification of people, yet he's honestly one of the more disabled members of his entire team. (With exceptions, of course, seeing as how his team has about 100 on-again, off-again members)

And can there be absolutely no overlap between the world of sports and the world of comic book nerdery? My local comic shop owner played football in high school.

And no, he's not an underdog exactly, but there's room for admirable people who are NOT underdogs. He may, in fact, be an Alpha-male personality... he gets angry at defiance and protective of what's his. But he usually apologizes afterwords if he got out of hand. Besides, It's not like negative qualities are or should be damning!

[averagejoe]

It's a secondary mutant power, basically to explain how he can manage complex ricochets of his Optic Blast power without a supercomputer in his brain.

Haha, what? Since when does he need complex ricochets? What's wrong with just blasting the crap out of stuff?

[snoopy13a]

That's what I think a lot of people just don't think about when they consider Cyclops' character... that his disability does end up seriously limiting him. There are plenty of people cursed with awesome, and Scott is a superhero, the most often cursed with awesome classification of people, yet he's honestly one of the more disabled members of his entire team. (With exceptions, of course, seeing as how his team has about 100 on-again, off-again members)

And no, he's not an underdog exactly, but there's room for admirable people who are NOT underdogs. He may, in fact, be an Alpha-male personality... he gets angry at defiance and protective of what's his. But he usually apologizes afterwords if he got out of hand. Besides, It's not like negative qualities are or should be damning!

My point was that Cyclops is the establishment character. Wolverine is the wisecracking, rebellious, loner. Cyclops is more successful as he's the leader and he gets the girl and he represents the benchmark of success. However, Wolverine represents the road less traveled. He's the guy people want to be like but are too scared to emulate.

Cyclops is the type of guy that'll become an investment banker or a partner in a big law firm, making millions. He is an alpha male in the conventional sense. On the other hand, Wolverine is the type of guy who'll become a roadie for a rock band. Our heads say Cyclops but our hearts say Wolverine.



And can there be absolutely no overlap between the world of sports and the world of comic book nerdery? My local comic shop owner played football in high school.

As did I. Most people do not fit into specific stereotypes, especially as people get older.

[thubby]

Haha, what? Since when does he need complex ricochets? What's wrong with just blasting the crap out of stuff?

that fact that others blast back substantially harder?

[snoopy13a]

Haha, what? Since when does he need complex ricochets? What's wrong with just blasting the crap out of stuff?

There might be an object or a teammate in the way.

[Cheesegear]

I used to like Cyclops. He was the leader. He got to tell everyone what to do. He was confident and charismatic. He has a disability which he (sort of) manages to overcome.

Except then this happened;
Cyclops: Jean's dead. I should move on. Hey, sweet a person that looks like Jean (Madelyn Pryor), she looks like my old girlfriend, but I'll come to love her out of her own merits.
Madelyn: I love you.
Scott: I love you too, let's have a son. And name him Nathan, after someone that has caused me so much personal grief (Nathaniel Essex/Sinister).
...
Scott: Wait, Jean's alive. Kthxbai!
Madelyn: But our son...!?
Scott: Don't care. Jean's alive. I don't care about you anymore. You wont go on a murderous rampage will you?
SHE DOES.
...
Scott: Oh, hey Jean...I got possessed by Apocalypse, so now I wont talk to you.
Jean: I just want to talk to you. Let's work this out.
Scott: Leave me alone.
...
Scott: Well, Jean's not talking to me, because now my wife has responsibility, in addition to her own problems with the Phoenix Force, instead of helping her out I guess I'll go hang out with Emma Frost. I'm totally not a douche and cheating on my wife. Even though me an' Emma never actually do anything, I think about it a lot. My wife Jean is a telepath. Nothing will go wrong with this.

[Yulian]

The Code still exists. You can still see it on the corner of all comics that comply.

Just a side-note here. Did you know that Warren Ellis's Hellstorm: Prince of Lies is apparently CC approved? Food for thought.


I believe it was an idiot comic writer who made it happen.

That was in an annual, the one with that Horde idiot, and a drop of his blood hit some kind of crazy hyper-powerful crystal dealie. It was the crystal thingie doing the heavy lifting.


Because he eats atomic bombs for breakfast and shaves with porcupines! Bub.


and drinks napalm.

That was in an issue of Classic X-Men, the backup story wherein Proteus, during his first appearance, psychically assaults Wolverine using his self image, doubts, and senses against him.

- Yulian

[Cheesegear]

Heaven forbid we ever have a real nerdy super hero who isn't also one of the strongest men alive.

Bruce Banner: When Nerd Rage goes horribly, horribly wrong.

[kpenguin]

Heaven forbid we ever have a real nerdy super hero who isn't also one of the strongest men alive

Oracle?:smallconfused:

[Jerthanis]

Except then this happened;

If you limit the comics characters you like to only those with well written romance subplots, you'll have pretty darn slim pickings.

It's like saying you liked Spider-Man until he made a deal with the Devil to save his dying aunt at the expense of as much as half or more of his core character integrity and his love interest on top of that.

Okay, maybe that doesn't have much to do with it, but you can like Spider-Man without liking what's done with him relationship-wise, and you can like Cyclops even if you don't like Emma Frost.

I find myself mirroring Kitty Pryde's opinion concerning her, "Why do we suddenly trust and love one of our bigger enemies of recent years? One known for duplicity and self interest?"

[SurlySeraph]

Bruce Banner: When Nerd Rage goes horribly, horribly wrong.

Don't you mean horribly, horribly right? The point of NERDRAGE is wanton destruction, isn't it?

[averagejoe]

There might be an object or a teammate in the way.

I don't think you get blasting the crap out of stuff. It's okay, not everybody does.

Seriously, though, that seems pretty gimmicky to me. Plus, being good at math wouldn't actually help with that, given the data available to the human eye.

[WitchSlayer]

Reminds me of something I read somewhere (if you as well remember the quote please say who, and it's from memory so it's probably off)

Guy 1: Hey, I've noticed something
Guy 2: What?
Guy 1: You ever realize that Superman is handsome, athletic, gets the girls, you know like a jock?
Guy 2: Yeah
Guy 1: And you realize how he's always beating up Lex Luthor who is an intelligent scientist who tries to fix problems with his mind? You know, like a nerd.
Guy 2: Yeah
Guy 1: So why is it that nerds are the one that buy comics?
Guy 2: Isn't it obvious? Even nerds like to see nerds get beaten up.

Same thing applies. Comics are a form of escapism. A lot of folk like the gruff, laconic, badboy Wolverine because he is not like them. And do not like Cyclops because, well, he is a bit of a nerd (with the body to back it up of course. Heaven forbid we ever have a real nerdy super hero who isn't also one of the strongest men alive)

Actually, for someone who's extremely powerful, Clark is really just a shy guy. He was a jock in Byrne era but that's long gone. He's a somewhat introverted fairly intelligent reporter, and yes, Clark is the real persona. Bill from Kill Bill is wrong.

[ghost_warlock]

@Cheesgear: *snicker* You know, I've always disliked Cyclops and I could never quite put my finger on why. I think you, and some of the other 'alpha-male' comments, narrowed it down well for me. Also, is it just me, or does the whole Jean/Pryor/Frost thing just make him seem too dumb to live? :smalltongue:

As for Wolverine, I really liked him when I was in high school (1993-1997; Magneto & the Acolytes, Omega Red, Xcutioner's Song, etc.) but I'm not really that fond of him these days. Then, again, I haven't read comics since then, either. Back then I saw him as a somewhat-feral guardian-type; fighting to protect the people he cared about. He was fighting to stay in control of himself, not lose himself in berserker rages, and protect his various wards (then it was Jubilee, but as others have pointed out he's taken guardianship over a number of young, female characters over the years). It was perhaps a bit creepy, considering his age was estimated at about 80 at the time, but he was so completely infatuated with Jean Grey that it was obvious he'd never take advantage of a ward.

At the same time, while rebelling against Scott's tyranny, Logan was working to sculpt Gambit into something other than an arrogant show-off. At least that's what it seemed like to me... Gambit was the punk kid in the X-mansion and Wolvie just wanted him stay off the lawn! :smalltongue: I suppose Logan was sort of the middle-ground - Scott was strict, a stick-in-the-mud, and Gambit was reckless, a loose canon.

[LurkerInPlayground]

And no, he's not an underdog exactly, but there's room for admirable people who are NOT underdogs. He may, in fact, be an Alpha-male personality... he gets angry at defiance and protective of what's his. But he usually apologizes afterwords if he got out of hand. Besides, It's not like negative qualities are or should be damning!
Geez, all right, all right - calm down Cyclops.

[Starscream]

Oh, and my favorite character's always been Nightcrawler!

Agreed. We need more Kurt. And not angsty "Wah, I'm a christian who looks like a demon" Kurt, but "I'm Errol Freaking Flynn with superpowers!" Kurt.

What they really need to do is fix up his origin. They were originally going to reveal that Mystique is not his mother, but his father. She shapeshifted into a guy and impregnated a woman.

It was canned for being too controversial. Then instead they revealed that his father is an actual honest to goodness demon instead. Apparently "Your dad's a chick" will cause more ire than "Your dad's Beelzebub."


Actually, DC does have more street levelers than Marvel does, and they, more often than not, don't have powers like Marvel street level guys do. Flash's Rogues and Lex Luthor are much more interesting than the Joker villain wise.

Yeah, I always found it strangely appropriate that the most powerful superhero is existence is constantly meeting his match in a middle aged guy in a business suit. And the truth is, Lex wins pretty often.


I plan to stick with Marvel except when they do really stupid things

Everything over the last couple of years, then?

At this point I'm like 80% certain that Quesada is a robot sent from the future to destroy Marvel Comics. Someday the machine uprising is going to be stopped by an issue of Howard the Duck or something, and he is here to prevent it.


Wolverine is the wisecracking, rebellious, loner.

I'd buy the "Wolverine as loner" thing if he didn't have a nasty habit of joining a dozen teams at a time.


Oracle?:smallconfused:

Oracle rules. Gail Simone has made Birds of Prey into the Buffy of comic books (much more so than Buffy's actual comic book). She is actually much cooler now than she was as Batgirl.

As cruel and inhumane as it sounds, getting shot was the best thing that ever happened to her.

[GoC]

Scott: Well, Jean's not talking to me, because now my wife has responsibility, in addition to her own problems with the Phoenix Force, instead of helping her out I guess I'll go hang out with Emma Frost. I'm totally not a douche and cheating on my wife. Even though me an' Emma never actually do anything, I think about it a lot. My wife Jean is a telepath. Nothing will go wrong with this.

She should have made allowances for the fact that everyone does this. One of my friends is absolutely devoted to his girlfriend but still commits thought crimes with other girls.

It only harms her if she's stupid. She knows he cares about her because she. Can. Read. His. Mind.
And isn't that the whole reason society rejects cheaters? Because the significant other can no longer be sure he/she is cared about?

[Cheesegear]

If you limit the comics characters you like to only those with well written romance subplots, you'll have pretty darn slim pickings.

I'm aware. :smallfrown: Unfortunately, the nature of the Hero is to be alone.


Okay, maybe that doesn't have much to do with it, but you can like Spider-Man without liking what's done with him relationship-wise, and you can like Cyclops even if you don't like Emma Frost.

So...You're saying I should hate the writers, not the characters they create? Yeah. I already do that. Replacing Cappy with 'Captain Bucky' (STOP RAPING MY CHILDHOOD)...Killing Sabretooth, Miss Sinister, Robot-Thor, Deadpool...Brand New/One More Day.


I find myself mirroring Kitty Pryde's opinion concerning her, "Why do we suddenly trust and love one of our bigger enemies of recent years? One known for duplicity and self interest?"

Heh. Agreed.
Speaking of Kitty; Her (eventual) relationship with Colossus was done well, as was her 'non-relationship' with same when she was 'under-18' :smallwink:


Orignally posted by SurlySeraph
Don't you mean horribly, horribly right? The point of NERDRAGE is wanton destruction, isn't it?

...Even in the real world, Oppenheimer (and Company) has apologised for the Atomic Bomb. There's a point where something works so well, that it's wrong.


Orignally posted by GoC
She should have made allowances for the fact that everyone does this.

No. No she shouldn't. 'Everyone does it', is not an excuse or a reason. Just because they do, doesn't mean they should. But, that's a topic for a different thread.


It only harms her if she's stupid. She knows he cares about her because she. Can. Read. His. Mind.
And isn't that the whole reason society rejects cheaters? Because the significant other can no longer be sure he/she is cared about?

Well, no. That's just it. He didn't care about her at all. She stopped talking to him because she was having problems...Exactly as he had done a few months previously. Instead of trying to help her (like she at least tried to do with him - and failed), Scott sulked like a twelve year-old and got drunk and hung out at the Hellfire Club. Hanging out with Emma more than he was Jean. In addition to having 'thoughts' about Emma in the company of Jean. A telepath. Compounded with the fact that Scott (and X-Men in general) are supposed to hate Emma Frost for being a ....

Jean wasn't stupid. She was unstable with the pressures of running the school by herself, and the Phoenix. Usually you don't have fantasies of other women, in the company of the woman you 'love'. Especially when she can see what happens in those fantasies. So, even though he didn't actually do it, Jean knew that he wanted to. Which only made her complex state worse. She couldn't rely on Scott anymore.

By the time Scott went crawling back to Jean, it was too late. The damage was already done.

"I'm going to leave my wife and child (Madelyn and Nathan) who I love very much, to hang out with my dead ex-girlfriend." goes against everything Scott has ever stood for. And then when his (current) wife is having problems, he abandons her, too... And that's why I hate Cyclops.

[kpenguin]

So...You're saying I should hate the writers, not the characters they create? Yeah. I already do that. Replacing Cappy with 'Captain Bucky' (STOP RAPING MY CHILDHOOD)...Killing Sabretooth, Miss Sinister, Robot-Thor, Deadpool...Brand New/One More Day.

What exactly do you have against Deadpool and the new Captain America? The former is completely awesome and the latter is actually being written pretty well, once you get past the fact that he's not Steve.

[UltraDude]

This thread pretty much seems to be summing up why I can't stand the American comic book industry nowadays.

God, I hate sounding like a total weeaboo fanboy, but at least manga sticks with one author the whole run of a comic (usually) and then the story actually ends after a while.

Though I have to admit, I've always liked Wolverine. I simply ignore the poorly written comic Wolverines, and focus on the animated series Wolverines. Speaking of which, has anyone watched Wolverine and the X-Men on Nick at all? I've actually heard some good things about it.

[WalkingTarget]

This thread pretty much seems to be summing up why I can't stand the American comic book industry nowadays.

God, I hate sounding like a total weeaboo fanboy, but at least manga sticks with one author the whole run of a comic (usually) and then the story actually ends after a while.

Well, while the never-ending-saga of superhero #23145 and friends has that problem, there are plenty of examples of stories with one writer and an ending that have been published by American companies.

Sandman (75 issues and a few outrigger stories, notable for being in the main DC universe continuity, if only intersecting with it occasionally), Transmetropolitan (60 issues), Preacher (75 issues), Midnight Nation (12 issues), Y: The Last Man (60 issues), I could go on.

There might be a smaller percentage of this format in American comics than in manga, but it's still there.

[UltraDude]

Well, while the never-ending-saga of superhero #23145 and friends has that problem, there are plenty of examples of stories with one writer and an ending that have been published by American companies.

Sandman (75 issues and a few outrigger stories, notable for being in the main DC universe continuity, if only intersecting with it occasionally), Transmetropolitan (60 issues), Preacher (75 issues), Midnight Nation (12 issues), Y: The Last Man (60 issues), I could go on.

There might be a smaller percentage of this format in American comics than in manga, but it's still there.

Yeah, and that's why I need to go find and buy some of them. Harder to, er, read a lot of American short comics without... spending money on them. Though with Watchmen GNs all over the freaking place in book stores, I'll have to at least pick that up in the near future.

[Dienekes]

To Witchslayer: Yeah I understand that it's not 100% accurate, and was just using it to illustrate part of why there is Cyclops hate even though he is the most relatable to the target audience. However it does get the point across. Supes= small town hillbilly. Solves problems with a form of violence or natural physical abilities. Lex= the mega-nerd. Countless people tune in to watch a nerd get beaten up repeatedly.

Cheesegear: yea Bruce Banner kinda proves my point. Hell, some authors have even had Bruce as a strong man out of Hulk form

kpenguin: Oracle is getting closer. But even she developed from the spunky martial artist and only later developed into a true nerd heroine. She is also one of the characters I have the most interest in, though I have to admit she's not my favorite.

Ultradude: I actually agree with you. Though I tend to pick and choose my comics and take them as separate parts of my own personal history for the characters (yes I know this is fundamentally wrong on many levels) I would suggest reading from the list WalkingTarget has, a personal favorite of mine is Sandman.

[GoC]

No. No she shouldn't. 'Everyone does it', is not an excuse or a reason. Just because they do, doesn't mean they should. But, that's a topic for a different thread.
I was dismissing the "it was unexpected and thus hurtful" objection.


Well, no. That's just it. He didn't care about her at all.
What did her brain scan actually say? "Scot cares about me" or "Scot doesn't care about me"?

[Aotrs Commander]

It's Jubilee of all people. That's stems largely from my age from I started to watch the X-Men cartoon and read the X-Men comics (not the Uncanny X-Men, the second book added in the early 90s). Anyway, I'm guessing that less than 1% of X-Man fans have Jubilee as their favorite.

I think you'd be surprised how popular Jubes is. She's certainly my favourite and always was. In fact, were it not for her in the 1990s animated series I'd never have gotten into comics at all. The just never seem to know where to put her - aside from Wolvie's sidekick - to make her work on her own.

(Her stand alone comic failed, I think, fun though it was because they took her totally out of context. Don't know what happened about New Warriors, but I think again it might have been a bit to fringe. They ought to slap her back in the X-Men, I think, and get someone who actually knows the character (to be fair, the bits of New Warriors with her in it were spot on the money) to write it. (Bloody Prof X got his damn powers back, the git and she soo deserves repowering more than he does, quintupally so after his comparitively recent revelations!) Ahem. Jubes rant over...)

In fact, Jubes is the reason why Wolverine is my second-favourite X-Man, because he's her sidekick. (No, I've not got that the wrong way round...)


Sorry to be a little off topic, but I have heard over the years an enormous amount of anti-Cyclops sentiment expressed in person and on forums, but I've never understood exactly why people dislike him so much.

The reason I disliked him (until Whedon got his hands on him), at least, was more or less the opposite reason to why I like Wolverine. The latter has a sense of humour. Cyke, until recently, almost never made a quip. He was always deadly serious, like he spent his life at his grandmother's funeral or something. I'm not fond of Storm - or Jean - for the same reasons, to be honest. Beast, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Iceman - they all aren't as dark (most of the time). Cyclops was - like everything else in the universe - much improved by the addition of some humour.

The comparison to Leonardo is apt, and merits further expansion to the other 1980's lead characters (e.g. Matt Tracker, Lion-o, Action Force/GI Joe's Hawk (I think, being in the UK I never saw very much of the animated series) and to a very slightly lesser extent, Optimus Prime, who while keeping to what is nearly the trope, did actually have a sense of humour at times.) Heck, it applies to Xavier himself. For a good long while (at least a goodly chunk of most of my twenty-nine years of expsure to TV and comics) it seems people in the leadership role had to be deadly serious most if not all the time, which I found boring. (I always preferred Grimlock to Prime anyday of the week, even in his diluted cartoon as opposed to comic form. Mind you, Grimlock might arguably be the Wolverine of the Autobots!)

(Also, it might be argued that Matt Tracker might have had a sense of humour of sorts, but his idea of funny is so far removed from humanity (or Lich...inity?) that it passes all mortal (and immortal) understanding. (Yes, I have been watching MASK on DVD recently...))

One only has to look at how popular Spidey and Deadpool (for example) are because they are basically witty. I mean Deadpool would utterly forgettable without his trademark wit, wouldn't he?

I think it's fair to say that a large section of the 'leader' type characters (which Cyke wholeheartedly fell into until recently) may be admirable, but that does not necessarily make them likeable.

On the plus side, they at least weren't the ernest and utterly unfunny 'human side kick/child/person who really didn't need to be in the series except on the order of the network execs who didn't belive children could cope with a series without a cretinous muppet in it they were supposed to 'identify' with and in fact were almost universally disliked or outrighted hated by the fanbase' character. (Yes, Spike/Buster, Scott Tracker and T-Bob, lookin' at you. With lasers.)

Now getting totally off-topic, Transformers: Animated's Sari is an example of that sort of character actually working (sort of).


I find myself mirroring Kitty Pryde's opinion concerning her, "Why do we suddenly trust and love one of our bigger enemies of recent years? One known for duplicity and self interest?"

It bugs me everyone, from writers on down, seems to have forgotten that Emma hasn't been a villain for a long time. Since, in fact, she ran Generation X (which was not long after the X-Men animated series started, since that was my first Marvel comic because Jubilee was in it. Yes, 'Jubilee is in it' is perhaps my biggest single selling point for a comic...) For cryin' out loud, the X-Men didn't have a problem with her teaching Jubilee, up until then an actual X-Man, so I don't think it's so far fetched that most of the X-Men are okay with her.

Incidently, I like her much better than Jean, who I always felt was a bit wet (especially in the animated series, which pretty much laid the groundwork for my perception of the X-Men). I think she's a much better foil for Scott, because it feels like it's two characters in a relationship, not Jean is mostly Scott's romantic interest. Which is how, rightly or wrongly, Jean always came across to me.


Speaking of which, has anyone watched Wolverine and the X-Men on Nick at all? I've actually heard some good things about it.

Taking my opinion with due regard to what I've said above, I liked it. I thought it was much closer in tone to the 1990's series (didn't think too much of Evolution), plus Wolverine is in the lead, as he damn well should be. And wit abounds.

(I still think it would have been better to have been JUBILEE and Wolverine (and the X-Men), but my opinion may be skewed ever so slightly...)

[Ascension]

Though I have to admit, I've always liked Wolverine. I simply ignore the poorly written comic Wolverines, and focus on the animated series Wolverines. Speaking of which, has anyone watched Wolverine and the X-Men on Nick at all? I've actually heard some good things about it.

I, err, saw the first three or four episodes somehow or another in a manner I'm sure was perfectly legal. *whistles innocently*

I liked it, and planned to watch it when it actually did start airing in America, but apparently it isn't on Nick, but on "The Nicktoons Network" which I'm assuming is some sort of extended cable Nick offshoot, and I've just got basic cable, so... no, I haven't been watching it.

EDIT: Wolverine wearing a motorcycle helmet in the first episode was hilariously out of character, though, and pointless given that his skull is laced with adamantium.

EDIT II: I think Optimus Prime works because he comes off as warmly paternal instead of just as a guy with a stick up his ass. If Peter Cullen voiced Cyclops...

[snoopy13a]

EDIT: Wolverine wearing a motorcycle helmet in the first episode was hilariously out of character, though, and pointless given that his skull is laced with adamantium.

I'm sure they had him wear a helmet to encourage kids to wear them while riding their bikes. However, NY State does have a mandatory helmet law so it can be rationalized that Wolverine didn't want to get pulled over by a cop.

Oh, does Wolverine still smoke cigars or is that a no-no now? :smallcool:


EDIT II: I think Optimus Prime works because he comes off as warmly paternal instead of just as a guy with a stick up his ass. If Peter Cullen voiced Cyclops...

Same with Xavier. People can take advice from the father or grandfather figure. It becomes more difficult to take advice from the older brother figure (Cyclops)

[chiasaur11]

I'm sure they had him wear a helmet to encourage kids to wear them while riding their bikes. However, NY State does have a mandatory helmet law so it can be rationalized that Wolverine didn't want to get pulled over by a cop.

Oh, does Wolverine still smoke cigars or is that a no-no now? :smallcool:



Same with Xavier. People can take advice from the father or grandfather figure. It becomes more difficult to take advice from the older brother figure (Cyclops)

NOBODY is allowed to smoke in Marvel comics now. It's disgusting, really.

I mean, what's Reed without a pipe, or Nick Fury and Ben Grimm without a stogie? Heck, Howard the Duck doesn't smoke anymore. Not even the villains do it.

The reasoning behind the decision doesn't help. Apparently, smoking sets a bad example for the kids. However, killing and eating people does not. Huh.

[Piedmon_Sama]

The impetus, as I heard, was because EIC Joe Quesada's uncle died of lung cancer. It's understandable, but still not a good reason for that arbitrary and stupid rule.

EDIT: Also Wolverine has been my favorite character since I was 4. And he's just not the same without his "disgusting black cheroots," dammit. :C

[WitchSlayer]

This thread pretty much seems to be summing up why I can't stand the American comic book industry nowadays.

God, I hate sounding like a total weeaboo fanboy, but at least manga sticks with one author the whole run of a comic (usually) and then the story actually ends after a while.

Though I have to admit, I've always liked Wolverine. I simply ignore the poorly written comic Wolverines, and focus on the animated series Wolverines. Speaking of which, has anyone watched Wolverine and the X-Men on Nick at all? I've actually heard some good things about it.

Stories do end in American comics. We call them "arcs". Authors also stick around during these arcs to resolve their storyline. We do, however, keep using the same cast from arc to arc, but that's just because of the time it came out of.

[Oslecamo]

Stories do end in American comics. We call them "arcs". Authors also stick around during these arcs to resolve their storyline. We do, however, keep using the same cast from arc to arc, but that's just because of the time it came out of.

But why can't you at least let characters who've died a million times stay dead?

It really gets in my nerves when in one issue the hero has been killed, decapapitated, burned in front of everyone and the ashes thrown into the sun and some issues later he's back like nothing hapened. And the justifications to why it hapened go from "A wizard/mad scientist did it" to "It was just a flesh wound actually, I'm better now."

Heck, even in Dragonball at least they had to gather the magic balls to keep bringing people back from the dead.

chiasaur11: The army needs soldiers. And soldiers need to kill. Comics are an excellent way to introudce kids to the concept of dying and killing for your country.

Now smoking is counter productive to your contry, so of course it's forbidden. Just like we won't see any arab super team anytime soon. Heck the U.S seem to have 99% of the super hero population in the books.

[Piedmon_Sama]

What are you talking about, comic writers are, with the exception of nutcases like Dave Sim and John Byrne, almost all liberal as ****. Did you read Secret War, Civil War, World War Hulk, or.... well, any big crossover Marvel has done since 2003? The American government is always portrayed as, if not corrupt, then possessive and paranoid, and a threat to the heroes' freedoms. Civil War was supposed to present us with a moral quandary, but it completely failed; the pro-government side were unquestionably presented in a worse light.

Okay I'm just a Marvel Zombie and can't really talk about what DC is doing, but they did have Lex Luthor as President for a long time and there's a lot of writer overlap. I can't in any way see how you think the Big Two are "pro-establishment."

[chiasaur11]

But why can't you at least let characters who've died a million times stay dead?

It really gets in my nerves when in one issue the hero has been killed, decapapitated, burned in front of everyone and the ashes thrown into the sun and some issues later he's back like nothing hapened. And the justifications to why it hapened go from "A wizard/mad scientist did it" to "It was just a flesh wound actually, I'm better now."

Heck, even in Dragonball at least they had to gather the magic balls to keep bringing people back from the dead.

chiasaur11: The army needs soldiers. And soldiers need to kill. Comics are an excellent way to introudce kids to the concept of dying and killing for your country.

Now smoking is counter productive to your contry, so of course it's forbidden. Just like we won't see any arab super team anytime soon. Heck the U.S seem to have 99% of the super hero population in the books.

Well, killing, sure.

Corpse eating, not so much.

[FatR]

Stories do end in American comics. We call them "arcs". Authors also stick around during these arcs to resolve their storyline. We do, however, keep using the same cast from arc to arc, but that's just because of the time it came out of.
Uh, how about "no"? Stories do not end, because arcs do not ever change anything in the long run. I don't really follow mainstream comics (except for Deadpool series), but as far as I know, permanent death or lasting development of a major character is practically unheard of, if you look at the perspective. Status quo is god and afterlife has a revolving door. Not only major titles are explicitly designed to drag on forever, but even if an old hero was replaced with a legacy hero he's extremely likely to return sooner or later.

[Oslecamo]

Corpse eating, not so much.

Zombies form most of the corpse eating population. Do you want to be like a zombie?

Hmm, on that matter, we should have smoking alchoolic rotten zombies! But then how would they bite people?

Piedmon_Sama:Notice how the government side always wins on those and the heros end up agreeing with them. It's a mesage. Don't mess up with the government kids. Even if they seem to be evil, if it wasn't for them we would have alien hordes conquering us and mad heros spreading anarchy all around.

After all, the Hulk basically surrenders in WWH end, and Captain America himself submits to the opressive law. Destroying germany was all good and dandy, but making some damage in homeland? Unadmissible!

[WitchSlayer]

Uh, how about "no"? Stories do not end, because arcs do not ever change anything in the long run. I don't really follow mainstream comics (except for Deadpool series), but as far as I know, permanent death or lasting development of a major character is practically unheard of, if you look at the perspective. Status quo is god and afterlife has a revolving door. Not only major titles are explicitly designed to drag on forever, but even if an old hero was replaced with a legacy hero he's extremely likely to return sooner or later.

But that's not the point. You can put down the book and stop reading after an arc and say that's the end. You don't have to read anymore. The story is resolved, lasting character changes are kept if the writer stays the same, but again "Status quo is God" came out of the times comics were born out of.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Piedmon_Sama:[/B]Notice how the government side always wins on those and the heros end up agreeing with them. It's a mesage. Don't mess up with the government kids. Even if they seem to be evil, if it wasn't for them we would have alien hordes conquering us and mad heros spreading anarchy all around.

After all, the Hulk basically surrenders in WWH end, and Captain America himself submits to the opressive law. Destroying germany was all good and dandy, but making some damage in homeland? Unadmissible!

The government side won because it was more edgy and "gritty" to have the good guys (and the rebels WERE the good guys) lose (except they didn't really lose, because Luke Cage and his Secret Avengers stayed active; so really things weren't conclusively resolved in Civil War). Cap's turnaround is one of the weakest moments Mark Millar has ever written and was pretty ill-thought out; it was Millar's attempt to force some ambiguity into the story, but they didn't completely go through with it because you've still got Cage & co. who "know what's right" resisting. They're the sympathetic ones. You can see it in Bendis' Mighty Avengers, too--they play up the heroes like Marvel Woman and Wonder Man for sympathy but they had pretty much given up making Tony a likeable character at that point.

Look at Illuminati, World War Hulk and Secret Invasion in conjunction: you have the most powerful men (out of a combination of personal power and broad influence) on Marvel Earth meeting in secret, essentially agreeing to act as a kind of World Police. They consult and hold themselves accountable to no-one, and surprise--the chickens come home to roost when Hulk comes back to earth and flattens New York, and the Skrulls develop technology to evade detection and come within a hair's breadth of finally conquering earth as a result. Remember the scene where Veranke tells Tony Stark his registration created the divisions and hostility in the superhero community that made the Skrulls' job so easy? She's not lying there.

Because the "leaders" of the Marvel heroes acted like Mavericks, because the government tried to micromanage everything, they ended up making things more dangerous for the people they were trying to protect. It's not a very subtle parallel.

And look at what span out of Civil War. Norman Osborne is now in command of National Security, the leader of the government-sponsored Avengers, and a national darling. Norman Osborne, who is still very clearly a ruthless villain with the occasional lapse into homicidal mania.

The point is, the writers' sympathies were never with the government and its supporters, and it shows. Honestly, I don't know how you get "don't mess with the government" out of Marvels' comics in the last few years. They've been blatantly portrayed as equally controlling and incompetent for years now.

Edit: Oh yeah, TONY STARK led the Avengers into Latveria, blew up Dr. Doom's castle, beat him up and arrested him with NO solid evidence and no legal authority except the right of might. Honestly, it just seems like a really obvious parallel to me and it's definitely not portraying authority in a positive light.

[Oslecamo]

Remember the scene where Veranke tells Tony Stark his registration created the divisions and hostility in the superhero community that made the Skrulls' job so easy? She's not lying there.

Because the "leaders" of the Marvel heroes acted like Mavericks, because the government tried to micromanage everything, they ended up making things more dangerous for the people they were trying to protect. It's not a very subtle parallel.


To be frankly honest, in marvel comics there are aliens/criminal organizations trying to conquer earth(and geting really close to it) every other week to the point it gets boring. They had been doing it for decades now so excuse me if I interpret that as simply more psychological warfare that at the 34529th try they blame the whole registration thingy. They would've tried to conquer earth and come to an air's breath out of it idiotic laws or no idiotic laws, because Earth just seems to have some special aura that draws aliens with uber techonlogy to it like bees to honey.



And look at what span out of Civil War. Norman Osborne is now in command of National Security, the leader of the government-sponsored Avengers, and a national darling. Norman Osborne, who is still very clearly a ruthless villain with the occasional lapse into homicidal mania.


Meh it actually looks like real change. Who knows, perhaps he's really changing. Magneto also used to be a super-terrorrist and then ended up turning into Mr. Reasonable. I greatly await for Osborne's deeds at his new jobs. Give me the maniacal cosplayer who actually cares about his family now and then over the selfish alchoolic who only cares about his toys any time.

Also, considering the horrible work his predecessors did(you can hardly go for a walk whitout steping into some organization bent into conquering/destroy Earth every other corner), Osborn would have to try hard to do a worst job than them.



The point is, the writers' sympathies were never with the government and its supporters, and it shows. Honestly, I don't know how you get "don't mess with the government" out of Marvels' comics in the last few years. They've been blatantly portrayed as equally controlling and incompetent for years now.

The marvel comics government spends trillions of dollars in super high tech to fight their own people and they still get elected and loved by the people(the workers at the end of Civil War who turn against Cap)! How isn't that suport? Even if they are incopetent and controling the marvel civilians are still willing to follow them to hell and back.



Edit: Oh yeah, TONY STARK led the Avengers into Latveria, blew up Dr. Doom's castle, beat him up and arrested him with NO solid evidence and no legal authority except the right of might. Honestly, it just seems like a really obvious parallel to me and it's definitely not portraying authority in a positive light.

Maybe I didn't express myself right. I meant respect the U.S government. Attacking some nonexistant country is completely right. Prepares the people for when you attack an existant country.

Of course, you don't see the marvel team going after all the corrupt and incopetent politicians of their own country do you? Cap even goes to the courts fully knowing they're being run by those same corrupt and incopetent politicians. Who's a good patriotic super-hero? You are, Cap, you are! You had no trouble trashing around the rest of the world, but when it's your own country, Cap will aparently rather roll over and die than try to resist the opression.

[Xondoure]

A lot of people have talked about how wolverine's character is overdone, but when he was first introduced it was a relatively new idea. Don't hate him for being the first.

[GoC]

They consult and hold themselves accountable to no-one, and surprise--the chickens come home to roost when Hulk comes back to earth and flattens New York, and the Skrulls develop technology to evade detection and come within a hair's breadth of finally conquering earth as a result.

Well they're only using their own power so it's only fair they should accountable to only themselves.
And the Hulk was responsible for his own actions.

[Vuzzmop]

He's little more than a stock macho character. but that's the thing; stock macho characters appeal to any given audiences lowest common denominator, which in most cases, makes up a good 80% of that group. Think Halo, people.

[FatR]

But that's not the point. You can put down the book and stop reading after an arc and say that's the end. You don't have to read anymore. The story is resolved, lasting character changes are kept if the writer stays the same, but again "Status quo is God" came out of the times comics were born out of.
How things I can do bear any relation to what comics companies do? Besides, to selectively choose which stories to keep in my personal continuity, I must know the comics series in question really well, i.e., give its wrtiters alot of opportunity to hammer home the fact that in their ''real'' comics universe nothing can ever change (even if I just read the synopsises, like I did when choosing whether to start reading Spider-man or not).

[BlueWizard]

Hugh Jackman nailed the portrayal. I loved the comic, and if you are among the few who don't like it. Well, you just don't cool badasses. Or comics.

[Piedmon_Sama]

To be frankly honest, in marvel comics there are aliens/criminal organizations trying to conquer earth(and geting really close to it) every other week to the point it gets boring. They had been doing it for decades now so excuse me if I interpret that as simply more psychological warfare that at the 34529th try they blame the whole registration thingy. They would've tried to conquer earth and come to an air's breath out of it idiotic laws or no idiotic laws, because Earth just seems to have some special aura that draws aliens with uber techonlogy to it like bees to honey.

That has nothing to do with the point. The writers chose to write plot they did, it's how events unfolded in the story; you can't say Marvel's writers are trying to kiss the government's ass and promote war and then ignore the stories they're actually writing.


Meh it actually looks like real change. Who knows, perhaps he's really changing. Magneto also used to be a super-terrorrist and then ended up turning into Mr. Reasonable. I greatly await for Osborne's deeds at his new jobs. Give me the maniacal cosplayer who actually cares about his family now and then over the selfish alchoolic who only cares about his toys any time.

Now and then. When he's not murdering people for annoying him. Which is what he did to Swordsman (Andreas Strucker), before he framed Doc Samson. Norman is unambiguously still a villain, still leading a team of villains, and associating with other villains (and Emma Frost and Namor). This guy is running the country's defense.

A comic where this guy is running the National Defense and the most powerful superhuman team on the planet, is not one where Authority is Right.


Also, considering the horrible work his predecessors did(you can hardly go for a walk whitout steping into some organization bent into conquering/destroy Earth every other corner), Osborn would have to try hard to do a worst job than them.

Osborn is making backdoor deals with the Red Hood and his superhuman mob. And working with Dr. Doom. It's admittedly the opposite of Iron Man's "kick in the door and blast 'em all" style, but it's just the reverse sign of a big coin of wrongness. This is not an improvement; the real heroes are still the criminals, it's just now the head of national security is a homicidal maniac instead of misguided.




The marvel comics government spends trillions of dollars in super high tech to fight their own people and they still get elected and loved by the people(the workers at the end of Civil War who turn against Cap)! How isn't that suport? Even if they are incopetent and controling the marvel civilians are still willing to follow them to hell and back.

Yeah, people also ate it up when Norman Osborne was "sold" as a hero, despite the fact that he's a convicted murderer. You (the reader) are NOT intended to see this as acceptable. You are supposed to go "oh no! This is terrible! How are the heroes gonna get out of this one?" It's meant to show how the masses are a bunch of easily led sheep, precisely so the reader will see why blindly trusting authority is a BAD thing.




Maybe I didn't express myself right. I meant respect the U.S government. Attacking some nonexistant country is completely right. Prepares the people for when you attack an existant country.

What? Doom had actually done nothing when Iron Man smashed down his door and arrested him. The writers were obviously trying to present Iron Man as shady--even Ms. Marvel starts to doubt him after they defeat Doom. Going around attacking a sovereign country, even a dictatorship run by a supervillain, was questionable and has turned out to bite the Avengers in the ass now that Morgana le Fay is in the present and pissed because of Doom's disappearance.


Of course, you don't see the marvel team going after all the corrupt and incopetent politicians of their own country do you? Cap even goes to the courts fully knowing they're being run by those same corrupt and incopetent politicians. Who's a good patriotic super-hero? You are, Cap, you are! You had no trouble trashing around the rest of the world, but when it's your own country, Cap will aparently rather roll over and die than try to resist the opression.

Cap's always been willing to stand on principal, even when it's nuts. We're not meant to think he's right to do what he's doing. Look at Luke Cage and the underground Avengers. They're the ones the writers' sympathies lie with.


Well they're only using their own power so it's only fair they should accountable to only themselves.
And the Hulk was responsible for his own actions.

Due to the Illuminati's "proactive" stance they not only ended up making the Hulk more powerful, but made him determined to get revenge no matter what the cost to earth. They messed with the Skrull Empire, and ended up giving them the resources needed to infiltrate earth. They acted recklessly, and the planet (or at least the city of New York) was virtually destroyed TWICE because of it. This kind of behavior is why the X-Men basically kicked Professor X off their team, why Iron Man was doomed from the start---they won't trust others, they're convinced of their own brilliance, etc. I'm not saying you're not supposed to have sympathy for these characters, you are, but it's obvious the writers don't agree with their measures since they keep having disastrous consequences, and the parallel to certain recent events in the real world is really obvious.

[WitchSlayer]

How things I can do bear any relation to what comics companies do? Besides, to selectively choose which stories to keep in my personal continuity, I must know the comics series in question really well, i.e., give its wrtiters alot of opportunity to hammer home the fact that in their ''real'' comics universe nothing can ever change (even if I just read the synopsises, like I did when choosing whether to start reading Spider-man or not).

We can argue all day long and not get anywhere. Things do change within a writers particular arc but if a writer prefers/wants to do something with a character that's died/gone out of continuity etc etc then they tend to bring them back. I love the fact that characters have lasted years and years and you don't seem to. Agree to disagree?

[Oslecamo]

That has nothing to do with the point. The writers chose to write plot they did, it's how events unfolded in the story; you can't say Marvel's writers are trying to kiss the government's ass and promote war and then ignore the stories they're actually writing.


What am I ignoring? They are the words of villains who are infamous for deception and seem to also be fanatically blind to some religion("she loves you too" keeps being repeated and repeated, sugesting the srkulls have lost whatever sanity they had left). I would only trust anything coming out of their mouth if they had some truth serum while standing in some magic circle of truth.



Now and then. When he's not murdering people for annoying him. Which is what he did to Swordsman (Andreas Strucker), before he framed Doc Samson. Norman is unambiguously still a villain, still leading a team of villains, and associating with other villains (and Emma Frost and Namor). This guy is running the country's defense.


Yeah, because Tony Starck totally isn't running a giant corporation whose job is to make tools to kill other people! Iron man's armor literally runs in the power of inocent blood since all those trillions of dollars come from war and conflict across the globe. In the day the earth becomes peacefull Tony goes bankrupt and he can't play super-hero anymore.



A comic where this guy is running the National Defense and the most powerful superhuman team on the planet, is not one where Authority is Right.

It's the old WH40K argument "We don't have any other choice to survive, so the Imperium is actually good to you even if it treats you as a slave all your life and then consumes your soul". Osborn is far from perfect, but considering the remaining choices available in the marvel universe, and the endless super-organizations trying to take down the U.S, and how the super-heros either ran way or are playing underground rebels instead of taking down the corrupt government, Osborn is actually the best men for the job.



Osborn is making backdoor deals with the Red Hood and his superhuman mob. And working with Dr. Doom. It's admittedly the opposite of Iron Man's "kick in the door and blast 'em all" style, but it's just the reverse sign of a big coin of wrongness. This is not an improvement; the real heroes are still the criminals, it's just now the head of national security is a homicidal maniac instead of misguided.

If they were real heros they would go after the true culprits(the super corrupt politicians) and set things right. But as it stands they're just content in solving small problems. There are no real heros in the Marvel universe. Just guys who like to dress in fancy clothes to go around showing off whitout actually doing anything meaningfull and powerfull guys who got corrupted themselves.



Yeah, people also ate it up when Norman Osborne was "sold" as a hero, despite the fact that he's a convicted murderer. You (the reader) are NOT intended to see this as acceptable. You are supposed to go "oh no! This is terrible! How are the heroes gonna get out of this one?" It's meant to show how the masses are a bunch of easily led sheep, precisely so the reader will see why blindly trusting authority is a BAD thing.


And the heros seem to think they can solve it with punches and laser beams instead of, I don't know, using their powers to collect evidencies of the political corruption, open the public's eyes and set things right on their own country? They have little trouble giving moral lessons in other countries and planets, why can't they do it at home?



Cap's always been willing to stand on principal, even when it's nuts. We're not meant to think he's right to do what he's doing. Look at Luke Cage and the underground Avengers. They're the ones the writers' sympathies lie with.

Yes, even tough Cage choose to make things worse by destroying billions of dollars of taxpayer money worth of equipment just to show off (he could easily have escaped and hided before the super troops arrived). As I said, no real heros there, just corrupt guys and guys trying to show off. There was almost a masacre on that street and it would've been both sides fault.


As for the remaining points, I realize now I haven't read the respective comics, so I can't discuss them.

[KnightDisciple]

Ok guys, take the discussion about the Civil War, and the implications about real world politics, somewhere else.
This one's for all you 90's cartoon Wolverine fans out there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngcfWu-uguk).

[snoopy13a]

Ok guys, take the discussion about the Civil War, and the implications about real world politics, somewhere else.
This one's for all you 90's cartoon Wolverine fans out there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngcfWu-uguk).

Morph was in that clip :smalltongue:

The greatest of all the X-Men :smallbiggrin: . Then they proceed to "kill" him off and have Beast get captured. Morph comes back (they always do) and I think he becomes a villian.

[Fri]

Iron man's armor literally runs in the power of inocent blood


Someone really gotta use that sentence out of context

[chiasaur11]

Morph was in that clip :smalltongue:

The greatest of all the X-Men :smallbiggrin: . Then they proceed to "kill" him off and have Beast get captured. Morph comes back (they always do) and I think he becomes a villian.

He's the greatest of the X-Men?

Well, then I get to decide the greatest of the Avengers. Only fair.

I pick...

Elephant Steve. All decisions final.

[Starscream]

He's the greatest of the X-Men?

Well, then I get to decide the greatest of the Avengers. Only fair.

I pick...

Elephant Steve. All decisions final.

Dibs on greatest member of the Initiative!

I choose you Squirrel Girl! She can take on all comers blindfolded (and probably has.)

[chiasaur11]

Dibs on greatest member of the Initiative!

I choose you Squirrel Girl! She can take on all comers blindfolded (and probably has.)

Well, that one's a gimmee.

It's like saying Ben is your favorite member of the Fantastic Four.

There's other valid choices (IE everyone who isn't Johnny.), but even if you can think of them, it really feels inadequate.

[Ascension]

There's other valid choices (IE everyone who isn't Johnny.), but even if you can think of them, it really feels inadequate.

Wait, are you including H.E.R.B.I.E. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.E.R.B.I.E.) as a "valid choice"?

[chiasaur11]

Wait, are you including H.E.R.B.I.E. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.E.R.B.I.E.) as a "valid choice"?

Only the Franklin Richards, Son of a Genius version, and the ones from Fin Fang Four.

Not the cartoon one, obviously.

[snoopy13a]

First of all, it looks like Disney (I don't know how they ended up with the rights) is released two DvDs of the 90s X-Men cartoon series later this month :smallbiggrin:

Secondly, the greatest superhero team of all time was the West Coast Avengers* :smalltongue:

* Yep, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, US Agent, War Machinge and for some reason, the Scarlet Witch. They were definitely the B-team of the Marvel Universe. They had the JV verisions of Cap America and Iron Man plus the two central characters didn't even have superpowers (Mockingbird and Hawkeye).

[Ascension]

I actually really liked Force Works, from the 90s Iron Man series (and a very short lived comic series). Now THERE was a strange superhero team.

I'm glad to hear that the X-Men series is coming out on DVD, no matter who's putting it out.

[snoopy13a]

I actually really liked Force Works, from the 90s Iron Man series (and a very short lived comic series). Now THERE was a strange superhero team.

I'm glad to hear that the X-Men series is coming out on DVD, no matter who's putting it out.

Yeah, Force Works was made up of the West Coast Avengers. Think they all quit after Mockingbird and formed up Force Works. I believe Force Works was Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, War Machine, US Agent and I'm probably missing someone.

See the early 90s was pretty much the only time I was into comics and only for about 2-3 years or so. The only groups I kept track of were X-Men (not Uncanny X-Men) and West Coast Avengers/Force Works.

[chiasaur11]

We can't forget the new Fantastic Four.

Ghost Rider, The Hulk, Spider-Man, and Wolverine.

Now that's an odd team.

[Ascension]

We can't forget the new Fantastic Four.

Ghost Rider, The Hulk, Spider-Man, and Wolverine.

Now that's an odd team.

I really should have picked up those issues. That team is such a terrible idea they must have been awesome.

[snoopy13a]

We can't forget the new Fantastic Four.

Ghost Rider, The Hulk, Spider-Man, and Wolverine.

Now that's an odd team.

Now, that's just messed up. I think the marketing people at Marvel must have come up with that one...

[Canadian]

I always liked Wolverine because he's Canadian. You know we all have special healing powers in Canada. We call it universal health care.

[chiasaur11]

Now, that's just messed up. I think the marketing people at Marvel must have come up with that one...

Sort of.

Walt "Awesome" Simonson did it as a parody of the then current Marvel trend of putting those four in every book. The storyline featured killer robots, Skrulls, the Mole Man and his monsters, and a completely unnecessary Punisher cameo.

It was great.

Not even the best part of the run. Trust me. You see any Simonson FF issues, you buy them.

[Starscream]

We can't forget the new Fantastic Four.

Ghost Rider, The Hulk, Spider-Man, and Wolverine.

Now that's an odd team.

The only "alternate" FF member I've ever liked is She-Hulk. She's a bit of a parody character herself, depending on who's writing her. Some fans disagree, but I've always found the "fourth wall awareness" to be her best trait.

[Ascension]

The only "alternate" FF member I've ever liked is She-Hulk. She's a bit of a parody character herself, depending on who's writing her. Some fans disagree, but I've always found the "fourth wall awareness" to be her best trait.

Have Shulkie and Deadpool ever been in a comic together? With their powers combined I think they might knock out the fourth wall entirely.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I think the weirdest thing about the "World's Most Marketable Team" (yes, they called it that) is that it's really not a bad team when you look at it. You've got Hulk in his Mr. Fixit persona as the tough-talking but brilliant (when in Banner form) one. Wolverine is the ultra-experienced and unflappable leader, the guy who's seen it all. Spiderman brings comic relief and some dramatic potential via his supporting cast to the team. And Ghost Rider is the guy with a mission of his own, who tends to stray from the team dynamic but always comes back in time. They cover brute strength, technology, agility, fighting skill AND supernatural power with just four guys.

I've read a few stories with them (one where they fought Arnim Zola in an alternate universe created by Apocalypse during the Twelve, and one where they replayed the events of Infinity Gauntlet and managed to kill Thanos). Their bickering is entertaining and they make a great team. I'd read an ongoing with the Alternate FF.

That said, the hands-down greatest ever superhero team is Nextwave. I can't believe Marvel declared that one out-of-continuity. Spoilsports. :smallsigh:

[chiasaur11]

I think the weirdest thing about the "World's Most Marketable Team" (yes, they called it that) is that it's really not a bad team when you look at it. You've got Hulk in his Mr. Fixit persona as the tough-talking but brilliant (when in Banner form) one. Wolverine is the ultra-experienced and unflappable leader, the guy who's seen it all. Spiderman brings comic relief and some dramatic potential via his supporting cast to the team. And Ghost Rider is the guy with a mission of his own, who tends to stray from the team dynamic but always comes back in time. They cover brute strength, technology, agility, fighting skill AND supernatural power with just four guys.

I've read a few stories with them (one where they fought Arnim Zola in an alternate universe created by Apocalypse during the Twelve, and one where they replayed the events of Infinity Gauntlet and managed to kill Thanos). Their bickering is entertaining and they make a great team. I'd read an ongoing with the Alternate FF.

That said, the hands-down greatest ever superhero team is Nextwave. I can't believe Marvel declared that one out-of-continuity. Spoilsports. :smallsigh:

Well, they tried to declare them non continuity.

Didn't take.

Also, Nextwave is the only canon comic since the last issue of Simonson FF.

The rest? Skrulls. I have evidence!

[Ascension]

Also, Nextwave is the only canon comic since the last issue of Simonson FF.

The rest? Skrulls. I have evidence!

It would actually be pretty awesome if it turned out that it was Skrull Mephisto who nullified a relationship between Skrull Peter Parker and Skrull Mary Jane to save Skrull Aunt May and the real versions of all of the above acted in a sensible manner during OMD.

In fact, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that Quesada is a Skrull.

[chiasaur11]

It would actually be pretty awesome if it turned out that it was Skrull Mephisto who nullified a relationship between Skrull Peter Parker and Skrull Mary Jane to save Skrull Aunt May and the real versions of all of the above acted in a sensible manner during OMD.

In fact, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that Quesada is a Skrull.

Well, there's reason to believe that even aside from Warren Ellis saying so.

I warn you though, it is even geekier than the rest of this discussion.

[Ascension]

Well, there's reason to believe that even aside from Warren Ellis saying so.

I warn you though, it is even geekier than the rest of this discussion.

Ellis said Quesada is a Skrull? And there's evidence? I've got to hear this.

[Starscream]

Have Shulkie and Deadpool ever been in a comic together? With their powers combined I think they might knock out the fourth wall entirely.

I think they might hit it off. With their genre-savvyness they could be running earth 616 within a week.

They'd make a pretty good couple, too. Ambush Bug would have to officiate the wedding.

[Harperfan7]

Wolverine, 300, Rorschach, Rambo, any character Arnie has ever played ever...

People just love badassitude.

And for good reason, I say! I've never been a huge fan of superpowers, and as said earlier, wolverine has the least. I don't want to root for a guy who only wins because he has retardedly awesome powers.

[BlueWizard]

Wolvie's awesome! He just is. :elan:

[TSED]

I think they might hit it off. With their genre-savvyness they could be running earth 616 within a week.

They'd make a pretty good couple, too. Ambush Bug would have to officiate the wedding.


But where would Squirrel Girl fit in?!

[chiasaur11]

But where would Squirrel Girl fit in?!

Same place she always does.

Major Deity.

[zeratul]

I'd say you're definately wrong. My bet would be Deadpool. Possibly Cyclops. Or naked Emma Frosts. :smallwink:


If memory serves me correctly, doesn't Cyclopse have even less fans than Uwe Boll movies and being hit repeatedly?:smalltongue:

[chiasaur11]

If memory serves me correctly, doesn't Cyclopse have even less fans than Uwe Boll movies and being hit repeatedly?:smalltongue:

Oddly, no.

I can count at least one fan of Cyclopes, and that's just using big name famous writers.

(Joss Whedon, if you were wondering.)

[Starscream]

But where would Squirrel Girl fit in?!


Same place she always does.

Major Deity.

"We are gathered here in the eyes of Doreen Green and about 50 X-Men characters nobody cares about, to join together in 4-Color matrimony these two licensed trademarks of Marvel Entertainment.

Jennifer Susan Walters, do you take this horrendously scarred homicidal chatterbox who is currently pinching the rear end of that Irish redheaded bridesmaid to be your lawfully wedded husband?

Wade Winston Wilson, do you take this eight foot tall green skinned anthropomorphic personification of every comic book reader's repression to be your lawfully wedded wife?

If there is anyone present who does not think these two should be wed, let him speak now or forever hold their peace.

Not you, Mr. Quesada, you don't count. Security!

Then by the power invested in me by the Comics Code Authority, I now pronounce the fourth wall officially null and void.

You may stuff the bride into a fridge."

[The Glyphstone]

"WIN."


Thread's over, everyone go home...:smallbiggrin: