PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Starting Fighter Build Help



ViktorStronarm
2009-04-02, 01:32 PM
Hello everyone,

So, I'm new to d&d and I'm joining a 4e game with some people from work. We're all starting brand new characters to play, and I'm looking for some general help with a fighter build. I have a very general knowledge of the system, but would like some opinions.

The DM rules for creation are:
78 points total for attributes, so all attributes add up to 78 (no attribute under 10)
500g to start

So, I have a pretty wide range of what I could accomplish.

My thoughts are:
Human Fighter (I want Human because of the character story I have already)
Str: 16 (+2 human bonus = 18)
Con: 15
Dex: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 10

My goal is to be a sword and shield fighter, take lots of damage and keep things off the rest of the group. I've used the Wizard's char builder to build a couple different templates, but feats are where I think I need the most help. I'm thinking of starting with Bastard Sword Proficiency and maybe one of the shield ones (shield push or distracting shield).

Again, I have no experience actually playing this guy out, so while I can see it on paper, I'm wondering what people who have actually had a chance to play already have for opinions.

Thanks!

oxybe
2009-04-02, 02:07 PM
the numbers look fine, i'd just up the swap Wis and Dex if you really want to max out the numbers.

sword-based fighters (if you're thinking about the long run) want at least a 17 dex by level 21 so they get the top-tier sword-based feats. sword-bolstered powers also generally use dex as their "bonus" stat. pump all the rest of your level up points into str+con.

the feats
for a sword & board fighter? Blade Opportunist & Armor Prof(Plate). at the low levels, the difference between 2d8 and 2d10 is only 2 damage on average. it's a feat you can hold off for a while, at least until you really start getting more feats and more 3+[W] powers. level 7 is when you start getting your first 3[W] attack, so you may want to consider it at level 6 or 8 if you really want the Bastard Sword, though i'm just a sucker for a longsword & heavy sheild.

i really recommend going for the heavier class of armor. unless you want to focus on your Dex instead of your Con (which i advise against), it really makes that much of a difference at the low levels.

at-will
Cleave, Reaping Strike & Tide of Iron

Cleave is your Standard Issue minion killer, and probably the one you'll use most often against normal enemies. the ability to jump among minions and kill 2, or hurt a normal enemy & kill a minion. really anytime you have reason to believe there is a minion (you can probably judge based on DM descriptions) use cleave.

Reaping Strike, on the other hand, is best used against soldier, elites & solos. those 3 monster types tend to have higher then normal AC and the ability to chip, even on a miss, can help.

Tide of Iron is your crowd control. basically use this to put the enemy in a hard to defend area or to move him away from some place you want safe (that place generally happens to be "where the clothies are").

hope this helps!

Kurald Galain
2009-04-02, 02:33 PM
The DM rules for creation are:
78 points total for attributes, so all attributes add up to 78 (no attribute under 10)
That is a novel approach. What is the maximum for attributes, I assume it's 18? With point values like that, you should definitely go for an 18; in general the only argument for not doing so is that it's too expensive, but with this kind of point buy, it's not!

Str 18+2
Con 14
Dex 10
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 10

It pays to focus on two attributes (in this case, Str and Wis) because you get to raise them every couple levels. A bit of con is nice to give you more healing surges, since you're a frontliner. Since you'll be wearing heavy armor, dex and int become much less important, and getting a good offense going is better than trying (and failing) to keep all four of your defenses high. If you want to go first more often (which isn't required for a fighter, really) grab the Imp Init feat.



500g to start
That will net you a +1 weapon now, or a +1 weapon with a potentially nice ability after your first adventure (520 gold). Check if your DM allows upgrading. Be sure to grab a ranged (heavy thrown) weapon, just because you might be unable to get into melee every time.

The best feats out there are the multiclass ones; if you want to do damage, I can recommend the Barbarian MC, or the Ranger one. If you want to hit more often, Avenger is golden.

Bastard sword isn't worth it: it does only one point of damage (on average) more than a broadsword, and that means that there are many better feats.

While the PHB offers little choice in fighter at wills (you get 3, and sure strike Is A Trap), the Martial Power book has a bunch of nice ones. Note that you don't really need Shield Push, per se, because you can always bull rush people if you really need to push them.

ViktorStronarm
2009-04-02, 02:48 PM
Sorry forgot the other two pieces for rules, you both touched on them.

No stat over 18 before racial modified (so taking an 18 to get a 20 is fine)
No magic items to start (no clue about the future...)

I put my wisdom up at 15 in the original because of the bonus to opportunity attacks plus the possible shield feats it opens up. Oxybe, you don't have it there, but added a feat that does +2 attack to opportunity attacks. Would it be good to have both, or is the added dmg not that big on avg?

Also, oxybe, you mentioned wanted Dex for Sword, then Kurald, you left it at 10. Is that something I'll be able to increase later on? Or is that just a matter of deciding what I want later on down the road and whether Wis or Dex will help? I'll admit, I haven't looked at Paragon paths yet to decide on one.

As for feats, I don't know anything about multiclassing, so I'm a little hesitant to jump into it just yet. I'm not against it, I'm just wondering if I should keep it simple for now and retrain later.

oxybe
2009-04-02, 02:55 PM
it depends on your focus. shield style uses a higher wis, while sword style uses a higher dex. i personally prefer axe style but that's a whole different story.

wis is great if you're going pit fighter, which adds it to pretty much all weapon damage.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-02, 02:57 PM
Well, it depends on what you want to do with your build.

Do you expect this campaign to hit level 21, ever? Because if you do, it's worth reading the Epic Level feats and seeing what you want. Will you stick with a sword forever, or consider spear + shield, or hammer + shield, or whatever? Spears work good with wisdom, by the way. If you don't expect to hit level 21, that part becomes irrelevant.

Added damage for a feat isn't worth much. Added to-hit, on the other hand, is very good. Added AC is a bit meh, since with scale armor and shield you'll have plenty of AC anyway; given all the penalties plate armor gives, it's not really worth a feat.

Point is, pick one secondary stat (dexterity for sword, wisdom for opportunity attack bonus, or constitution for slightly heavier armor) and stick with that. Better to be good at one thing than to be mediocre at three. You can retrain feats, but not ability scores.

Darth Stabber
2009-04-02, 03:01 PM
I would recommend that you take Tide of Iron, Cleave and what ever the Invigorating @will in Martial power is. If you are going to use swords almost exclusively you definitely want dex, if you want to use axes, hammer or other such stuff, Dex can dumpstated because it won't matter to you. If you decide not to go with Swords (and 8bit theater fighter would be ashamed) and go with hammer or axes instead(Trading a little accuracy for a little damage) you cut back on your MADness. So i recommend going for Axes or hammers for that reason. Also Plate armor prof and shields are a trap. The AC bonus is unimportant, and you can spend the feats to make yourself better in otherways. Multi-class avenger for Oath once per encounter, and you will appreciate the less missing, more crit'ing, especially against solos. and for your other feat, Action Surge FTW. Action Point Look now I get two attacks with +3 to hit on both. Or take a proficiency feat for the craghammer. d10 Brutal2 Versatile - some good damage there.
Recommended Stats
Str-18+2
Con-16
Dex-10
Int-10
Wis-14 (For bonuses to Opportunity attacks)
Cha-10

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-02, 04:17 PM
My goal is to be a sword and shield fighter, take lots of damage and keep things off the rest of the group. I've used the Wizard's char builder to build a couple different templates, but feats are where I think I need the most help. I'm thinking of starting with Bastard Sword Proficiency and maybe one of the shield ones (shield push or distracting shield).

It sounds like damage-dealing isn't that important to you. And which books can you use - I'm assuming just PHB I at the moment.

Keeping that in mind:

STATS
STR 18+2
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10

OK, here's the breakdown. Your three Non-AC Defenses (NADs) are based off of STR/CON, DEX/INT, and WIS/CHA; this array maximizes your three NADs. It gives you Fortitude 18, Reflex 12+2 (Heavy Shield), and Willpower 14.

Your boosts should go to STR and DEX. In 4E, CON is not as important to HP as it was in previous editions - your raw score + 15 is your base HP and you gain 6 per level. At level 11 you will have STR 23 and DEX 15 - enough to qualify for any STR or DEX feat you wanted. After you reach DEX 15, you can boost CON if you'd like.

FEATS
Depending on your party you should take Toughness or Durable (or both, if you'd like). If you have a Cleric or two Leaders, take Durable - you'll be popping a lot of surges. If not, take Toughness - +5 HP is equivalent to having +5 CON in terms of HP.

As for your second feat, you can take Bastard Sword proficiency. I would advise against Shield Push - you can only use it on a CC Attack which, as an Immediate Action, you can only make once per round. It's just not very good. A Bastard Sword is nice (1d10 damage) but, if you don't care about damage, you might want to take Action Surge or Improved Initiative instead. Action Surge gives you +3 to hit on all attack rolls made on the turn you spend an Action Point (which works very nicely with Burst Attacks); Improved Initiative can help make sure you go first, letting you get into a good position to receive enemies. Your choice.

POWERS

At Will: Tide of Iron, Cleave, and Reaping Strike
These are the 3 good Fighter At-Wills in the PHB

Encounter: Steel Serpent Strike or Covering Attack
If you have a Rogue, go with Covering Attack - it can help get him into Flanking. Otherwise, Steel Serpent Strike is excellent for nailing a dodgy bad guy to the floor.

Daily: Comeback Strike or Villain's Menace
Comeback Strike is a good "emergency healing" power; if you have a cleric or two Leaders, take Villain's Menace.

GEAR
You have a real choice between Spear and Heavy Blade Fighting here. I would go with Heavy Blades because (1) You have a higher to-hit and (2) Heavy Blade Mastery at LV 11. Buy a Longsword or a Bastard Sword, depending on how your Feats are selected, and Scale Armor & Heavy Shield.

Colmarr
2009-04-02, 05:26 PM
Check if your DM allows upgrading.

What do you mean by that? My understanding is that upgrading is "core", unless you mean only paying the difference in price?


I would advise against Shield Push - you can only use it on a CC Attack which, as an Immediate Action, you can only make once per round. It's just not very good.

Personally, I think Shield Push is the feat that most maximises the Fighter's defender potential. Assuming you are adjacent to the ally being attacked, it raises the very real possibility that the enemy's attack will be completely wasted - because by the time they swing they have already been pushed out of range.

It might be conditional, but it's a feat that I include in every guardian build. There's no other feat in the game IMO that quite so eloquently says "You REALLY don't want to attack my friend".

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-02, 05:41 PM
Personally, I think Shield Push is the feat that most maximises the Fighter's defender potential. Assuming you are adjacent to the ally being attacked, it raises the very real possibility that the enemy's attack will be completely wasted - because by the time they swing they have already been pushed out of range.

It might be conditional, but it's a feat that I include in every guardian build.

Perhaps, though most monsters have a back-up ranged attack they can swap in. It has never seemed worth it to me.

IMHO Toughness or even Bastard Sword proficiency is more important to have than Shield Push. If I were to feat out this guy, I'd go:
1 - Toughness, Improved Initiative
2 - Durable
4 - Action Surge
6 - Human Perseverance
8 - Shield Push (retrained to Heavy Blade Opportunist)
10 - Weapon Specialization (Heavy Blades)
11 - Shield Specialization

Since HBO basically lets you Shield Push anytime except for Combat Challenges. BTW, I'd either go Swordmaster or Iron Vanguard at Paragon with this build - both are pretty good defensive PPs.

Colmarr
2009-04-02, 05:56 PM
Perhaps, though most monsters have a back-up ranged attack they can swap in.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

The way I see it is: Monster declares action. Fighter interrupts. Monster finishes.

The monster has to declare which attack it is using, because you need to know whether OAs arise or not. So it declares (eg.) Slam. The fighter then pushes it with Shield Push. Slam then goes off, but automatically misses because it's out of range of the target.


IMHO Toughness or even Bastard Sword proficiency is more important to have than Shield Push. If I were to feat out this guy, I'd go:
1 - Toughness, Improved Initiative
2 - Durable
4 - Action Surge
6 - Human Perseverance
8 - Shield Push (retrained to Heavy Blade Opportunist)
10 - Weapon Specialization (Heavy Blades)
11 - Shield Specialization

I'm not sold on Durable, as it offers only metagame benefits. Ie. you only need it if your DM says you need it. Otherwise, you take an extended rest.

I'm also not entirely sold on Action Surge for fighters, simply because AFAIK all of their OMGWTF powers are reliable. Doubly so if your primary aim is to defend party members, because your mark sticks regardless of whether you hit or not.

I generally dislike Improved Initiative for defenders, because it leads to them getting in the way of area powers. And if you're delaying/reading to avoid that, you may as well not have the feat.

And while I see the value of Human Perseverance, it's IMO far from a must-have feat, especially in a group with cleric or warlord who can grant extra saves or save bonuses.

There's nothing wrong with any of those feats, but I think that most of them don't play to the schtick that ViktorStronarm is aiming for; specifically "keep things off the rest of the group".

TheEmerged
2009-04-02, 05:58 PM
Okay, as I'm reading how you're buying attributes (you start with a 10 in every attribute and then have 18 points to distribute), I *strongly* recommend the 18 in Str. This will amount to a +1 to hit and a +1 damage on effectively every melee attack you make. That will leave you with 10 points to distribute.

Spoilering the rest of this to prevent TL:DR

15 is a good score for warrior CON; it will result in you having 30 HP and 7 HP per surge to start with. 14 would be too low, and 16 isn't giving you as much as you might think.

That leaves you with 5 points left, and a decision to make. For a sword-and-board fighter, there are 2 paragon-level feats you're going to want that require Dex 15 -- and an epic-tier feat that requires Dex 17. Those three feats will give you a +1 bonus to AC & Ref, the ability to use at-will powers for basic attacks (like those from charging and opportunity), and cause attack rolls to go critical on a natural 19 as well. Is a bonus to opportunity attacks really worth more than that?

Personally, I'd say no -- I just don't see enough opportunity attacks for it to be worth it. On the other hand, any bonus to attack is a good one and you will get a couple of ability increases before you hit the paragon tier. Dex will add to your Initiative score. 13 Dex will qualify you for Blade Opportunist -- essentially the same bonus as a 14 Wis.

For at-wills, Cleave is a no-brainer. Personally I prefer Sure Strike over Reaping Strike, but neither is a mistake. Tide of Iron and Footwoork Lure (MP) are both good (especially when you need something moved away from a vulnerable target). Brash Strike (MP) is not a good trade, in my opinion. Dual-Strike (MP) is a good choice, but not for you. I haven't played with Crushing Surge (MP) and the Invigorating keyword yet, but the one test I tried was underwhelming. YMMV.

This brings us to feat selection. As a human you'll get two. I would recommend against WP: Bastard sword as well. Weapon Expertise: Heavy Blade (from PHB2) is a much better choice (+1 attack is worth roughly +2 damage). Stay away from Power Attack (you read the part about +1 attack is worth roughly +2 damage, right?).

The racial feat (Human Preserverance) is not as useful as it may look IMO -- you already have a 55% chance to save, is going to 60% that big a deal? Now, the Sideways Defense feat (MP) might be worth looking at -- giving a +1 defense (not merely AC, but defense) to any ally adjacent to you against attacks made by targets you've marked.

Now, you mentioned not being too good with the mutli-classing feats. Here's how it works: you take one you're qualified for. You learn a skill, and get some other bonus depending on which one you took. You can then qualify to take any feat restricted to that other class, you can qualify as that class's paragon paths, and you can take additional feats (that generally aren't worth taking) to switch out some of your existing powers for powers from that other class.

Generally, almost every charater should take the single multi-class feat they're allowed. The one I see taken the most is "Warrior of the Wild", which you would qualify for via your Str. This would give you an additional skill from the Ranger list (and if there's not something on that list you want, you're not paying attention) and the ability to declare a Hunter's Quarry once per encounter -- a target you'll do 1d6 extra damage to.

Now, if you followed my advice about attributes above you can't take this next feat -- but it might be worth ignoring me for :smallredface: With 13 Int you'd qualify for Arcane Initiate. You'll learn the Arcana skill, which I'm sure you're just overjoyed to learn. More importantly, however, you'll be able to learn either Scorching Burst or Thunderwave (PHB pg 159) as an encounter power -- allowing you to mark multiple opponents (or take out multiple minions). 13 INT would also qualify you for Jack of All Trades, if you want it.

However, PHB2 has given you another option: Defender of the Wild (Multiclass Warden). You get a skill from the Warden list (more likely to be one you want), and the ability to mark every enemy adjacent to you once per encounter as a free action. Now, this mark only lasts until the end of your next turn so it's not a *clearly* better option -- but it's the one I'd recommend.

------------------------------------------

Now, you didn't mention selecting your encounter and daily powers, but let's touch on them. "Conventional Wisdom" (such as it is) says that your encounter should be a power you can use every encounter, while your daily should either be an anti-boss power or a very good special use

Is there a rogue in your party? If so, take a hard look at Spinning Sweep. It's only 1[w], but knocks the target prone -- granting combat advantage, and therefore giving your rogue sneak attack damage. Covering Attack *looks* like it would be a good way for rogues to get into flanking position, but in my experience proved to be too situational.

Passing Attack has its uses, but like Covering Attack it's a little too situational (less situational the Covering Attack, but still too much so). Steel Serpent Strike, on the other hand, is a good choice -- and the best choice of the PHB encounter powers if you don't have a rogue in the party. Insightful Strike (MP) is a decent choice if you've got the Wis for it. Lunging Strike (MP) is somewhat situtational, and frankly most of the time I would rather have the attack roll than the reach. Shield Bash (MP) on the other hand is a good choice for a Sword-n-Board -- the benefit of being able to use it on a charge is easy to underestimate.

Your daily is not such an easy choice, though. Villain's Menace is the prototypical "boss power"; hit with this and you'll get a +2 attack bonus and +4 damage bonus against this mob for the rest of the encounter (miss and it's still +1/+2). Flanking Strike (MP) can be frightning against bosses as well (3[w] damage, plus your Dex mod for every ally adjacent to the target). In the right fights, however, Tempest Dance (1[w] against three targets, with a shift between each target) and Harrier's Ploy (3[w], and for the rest of the encounter you shift Dex squares every time the target moves) can be IWIN buttons.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-02, 06:06 PM
I'm also not entirely sold on Action Surge for fighters, simply because AFAIK all of their OMGWTF powers are reliable.
(1) they're not, and (2) it makes a big difference whether you hit the BBEG now or hit him next turn.

If you really want to keep things off your allies, grab a longspear, Footwork Lure at will, and the feat Polearm Momentum. Voila, you get to slide and throw prone enemies on an at-will power :smallsmile:


15 is a good score for warrior CON
No, unless you're playing a Battlerage fighter, or plan on specializing in hammers. Otherwise, leaving it at 10-12 will give you sufficient surges and value, and you still get to take toughness or durable if you must.


Personally I prefer Sure Strike over Reaping Strike, but neither is a mistake.
Hooo boy! Sure Strike is one of the biggest design flaws in the player's handbook (the other one being the ranger at-will that does roughly the same). It is less effective than a basic attack. Don't take that power, ever.

Oh yeah, to the OP: what books are allowed? Can you pick from Martial Power? How about the PHB2? Just because WOTC calls something "core" doesn't mean all DMs are using it, so is yours?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-02, 06:19 PM
I'm not sure I agree with that.

The way I see it is: Monster declares action. Fighter interrupts. Monster finishes.

The monster has to declare which attack it is using, because you need to know whether OAs arise or not. So it declares (eg.) Slam. The fighter then pushes it with Shield Push. Slam then goes off, but automatically misses because it's out of range of the target.

Hmm... I suppose you're right. I guess it's just that in my group the monsters always seem to be plenty happy chewing on the Fighter - but then again, we generally don't have blocking terrain so it's hard for him to really do point defense.



I'm not sold on Durable, as it offers only metagame benefits. Ie. you only need it if your DM says you need it. Otherwise, you take an extended rest.

No, I don't agree. Fighters, in general, go through Surges a lot faster than the rest of the party - and when your Fighter is out of Surges, you really have to stop for the day. In my build, it also makes up for the relatively low CON 12.

As for Improved Initiative - I'm willing to trade off obscuring an AoE for one round for being able to seize the high ground before the baddies can. Unless you have a lot of nukers, I'm pretty sure the AoE problem won't come up too often.

Action Surge is just good, particularly for combo attacks. My favorite? 2H Fighter uses "Come and Get It" followed by "Thicket of Blades" :smallbiggrin:

Admittedly, it's not as useful for a real Turtle Fighter, but sometimes you really want the effect of your attack to stick. I'm in agreement with Human Perseverance - it's just really handy if you get hit with a lot of Save Ends attacks (and for Death Saves).

OK, revised:
1 - Toughness, Improved Initiative
2 - Shield Push
4 - Durable
6 - Defensive Mobility
8 - Action Surge
10 - Human Perseverance (Retrain to HBO)
11 - Shield Specialization

Defensive Mobility can be helpful if you need to walk around monsters to get into the right position.

Colmarr
2009-04-02, 06:24 PM
No, I don't agree. Fighters, in general, go through Surges a lot faster than the rest of the party - and when your Fighter is out of Surges, you really have to stop for the day.

That's my point. The only downside of not having Durable is that you might end your day a little earlier. Which is only a downside if the DM says it is (ie. s/he's got you racing against the clock).


As for Improved Initiative - I'm willing to trade off obscuring an AoE for one round for being able to seize the high ground before the baddies can. Unless you have a lot of nukers, I'm pretty sure the AoE problem won't come up too often.

Fair enough. My view might be biased because I play in a group with a blaster wizard with +7 init at level 1. He almost always goes first and opens combat with an Area spell.

Although one thing Viktor might take from this whole discussion is that there's no right build for a fighter. It's a decision that it best made by considering the other classes and abilities in the party.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-02, 06:30 PM
That's my point. The only downside of not having Durable is that you might end your day a little earlier. Which is only a downside if the DM says it is (ie. s/he's got you racing against the clock).

Well... presumably most DMs don't give you weeks to get through an adventure that should only take a day; adventure by Event Flag (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EventFlag) can get silly rather fast.

But a larger concern is running out of Surges mid-battle. Like I said, Fighters spend Surges really quickly, particularly if they are taking the brunt of an encounter's attacks.

ViktorStronarm
2009-04-02, 06:48 PM
Oh yeah, to the OP: what books are allowed? Can you pick from Martial Power? How about the PHB2? Just because WOTC calls something "core" doesn't mean all DMs are using it, so is yours?

I can use PHB, PHB2, and MP.

Also, thanks to all in this discussion, I am definitely learning plenty about the options available to the fighter as well as different play styles.

Please continue the discussion!

Edit: Also, I don't have the complete setup of the party yet, there is still one left to decide, but right now it looks like Fighter, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, plus one TBD.