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Tarvus
2009-04-02, 08:55 PM
First Hello!

Recently out party ran a dragon-slaying quest to test out the Draconomicon.
During the offer the Lord was giving us, I (NE Wiz) check my Knowledge(Arcana) to see what I knew about dragon anatomy.
I knew enough to set me thinking and planing. . .

When a dragon is slain its hide and scales are taken to create armor, its blood is taken to make elixirs, and its bones and teeth to make weapons. The problem is the armor and teeth-weapons are given to fighters, the bone-bows to the rangers and the elixirs to the rogue (spider climb, sound imitation darkvision, suggestion etc.) and the horde is split between the party, in this case mostly gold with very few magic items and scrolls. But I don't get an item that says I Slew A DRAGON!

So with the Red dragon slain our session ended as we started to split loot, harvest scales and as I ordered the barbarian and paladin to cut deep into the dragons side and remove an organ.

The draconis fundamentum is a gland possessed by true dragons. It is the center of elemental activity inside the dragon’s body. All blood flowing from the heart passes through this organ before going to the body. The draconis fundamentum charges the lungs with power for a dragon’s breath weapon and also plays a major role in the dragon’s efficient metabolism, which converts the vast majority of whatever the creature consumes into usable energy. Blood vessels, nerves, and ducts run directly from the draconis fundamentum to the dragon’s flight muscles, charging them with enormous energy.

Imagine what you could do with such immense power as a spell component or in item creation. The Breath weapons Battery!

This dragon quest leaves me with a few questions plus a few others from the party to save time

1)What would you do with this? (Its been gentle reposed to save time)
2) As a DM how would you react to me doing this? Is it any different from letting blood for elixirs or taking leg-bones for bows?
3) T
Others:
4) Can you cast iron wood on darkwood? To possibly get a wooden plate, as strong as steel, immune to fire, with a +1 enchantment AND half the weight?
5) What is the market price for a dragon scale shield (no enchant, medium size)?
6) The Draco. . . mentions intimidation bonuses when wearing a dragon hide mantle (+2) my DM wants your opinion on a fighter wearing dragon -armor, -slaying dragon tooth weapon, -hide mantle, -scale shield.
7) The market price of a scaled down Gripsoul (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gripsoul) with only a +2 enchantment not 6

Chronos
2009-04-02, 09:36 PM
4) Can you cast iron wood on darkwood? To possibly get a wooden plate, as strong as steel, immune to fire, with a +1 enchantment AND half the weight?You could, but technically by the RAW it wouldn't be a good idea. The Ironwood (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironwood.htm) spell actually uses the original wooden item as a material component and creates the ironwood, rather than targeting the normal wood and turning it into ironwood. And it also states that the substance so created is as heavy as steel. So by using darkwood for the spell, you're increasing the cost, but not actually gaining any benefit.

That said, it'd probably be a perfectly reasonable houserule to do it the way you suggest.

LibraryOgre
2009-04-02, 11:35 PM
A dragon helm. Use the skull to make a magical helmet.

ShadowFighter15
2009-04-02, 11:49 PM
A dragon helm. Use the skull to make a magical helmet.

That probably wouldn't work with most dragons; look at the size of their heads (I mean the physical size; if you include ego then they dwarf the planet). I don't know how much they'd weigh; but in the first chapter of Shadows of Undrentide (the first expansion pack for NWN1) you can kill an ancient white dragon and his skull was listed as being just over 30 pounds, which was very annoying for my STR 8 wizard character.

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-03, 02:29 AM
Keep in mind, according to the Book of Vile Darkness, you can use certain dragon parts as "extra" material components to add power to your spells; what surprised me was the extremely-low cost for said parts, like how a second-level character with normal wealth-by-level could easily have a whole sack full of chromatic dragons' hearts without putting a serious dent in his cash.

JeminiZero
2009-04-03, 02:46 AM
1)What would you do with this? (Its been gentle reposed to save time)


If it were possible (and your DM will most probably not let this happen), I would try and figure a way to graft the organ into myself, so that I would gain the Dragon's efficient metabolism, energy immunity and breath weapon.

Waspinator
2009-04-03, 02:57 AM
For a dragon-skull-helmet, you'd probably need to kill a dragon in the same size category as yourself to get a skull of usable size. Actually, make that your size category plus one so there's room for your head inside of it.

I'd probably argue that said skull could then be used during any PC crafting of magic items to make any of the helm magic items. A bonus to intimidate would seem reasonable to give some benefit to making it this way that won't make every PC want to go out and mass-slaughter dragons so that all of their items can have it. Not that that'd work, anyway. In most settings, the draconic species are rare enough with a slow enough reproductive cycle that it'd be hard to find large numbers of them.

Learnedguy
2009-04-03, 03:17 AM
If it were possible (and your DM will most probably not let this happen), I would try and figure a way to graft the organ into myself, so that I would gain the Dragon's efficient metabolism, energy immunity and breath weapon.

Ye gods, can you imagine the amount of alcohol you could drink with a Dragon Liver:smalleek:?!

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-03, 03:43 AM
If the dragon is enough big, i see better the skull becoming a shield or tower shield (just imagine the lower jaw removed, dragons horns upper).

You could even use the "battery" as a reagent for A LOT, but A LOT of alchemical fire and use it to fuel the flame throwing cannon in Stormwrack. This is cool or useless depending from the campaign.

As a general rule, in my campaing i use monster part, expecially themed ones (death, fire, haste) as reagents for enchant.

As ane example, would be easy, gold and XP wise, enchant a shield with resistance to fire if you use a Red Dragon as a reagent.

Obviously, you have to manage this, probably letting you players do such craft and enchants only after defeating certain monsters, or a certain number of monsters, or other way to mantain balance.

About intimidation, since Dragons are the most powerful beings, could be fine raise to +4 the intimidation bonus if the fighter does not abuse it and you could even balance it bringing diplomacy penalities against dragons of the same colour, or dragons worshipper, if fits with the campaign.

As a general rule, anyway, let players enjoy their deeds and equipment:smallwink:. If becomes broken or boring, you have chances and chances to destroy it. :smallamused:

AslanCross
2009-04-03, 03:45 AM
Ye gods, can you imagine the amount of alcohol you could drink with a Dragon Liver:smalleek:?!

Dragons can metabolize precious metals and other inorganic materials. I'm sure alcohol wouldn't even give you a buzz.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-03, 03:56 AM
Dragons can metabolize precious metals and other inorganic materials. I'm sure alcohol wouldn't even give you a buzz.
Reminds me of the dire straights poor Super Hoo-Man is in in a recent Nodwicks (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/gamespyarchive/index.php?date=2009-03-23)comic.

monty
2009-04-03, 09:08 AM
If it were possible (and your DM will most probably not let this happen), I would try and figure a way to graft the organ into myself, so that I would gain the Dragon's efficient metabolism, energy immunity and breath weapon.

Actually, there's a graft in Races of the Dragon that gives you a breath weapon, and requires fundamentum tissue. Still costs a lot of money, though.

Tarvus
2009-04-03, 09:17 AM
Ye gods, can you imagine the amount of alcohol you could drink with a Dragon Liver?!

Ha! Only problem is you'd need to get the Draco Fund. . . to power it, and the stomach so you can eat metal and (etc) . .. so, um, how much space do you have inside of you, exactly? :P

Ach! I wish we had of read the Ironwood desc. properly. DM probably allow the cheese of it. I think I used up my allowance of leniency with the castle siege, so many inventive uses for spells between my wizard, the cleric and the druid.
The Druid will get over it :)

Zherog
2009-04-03, 11:10 AM
There's an article in Dragon 332 called "Cutting up the Dragon." It goes into exactly what you're looking for - what you can do with this massive corpse after you've killed a dragon. It's a fun read.

Texas Jedi
2009-04-03, 03:03 PM
If I were your DM I would reward your ingenuity for thinking outside the box, and causing me to think on my feet. I loved players that threw a curveball at me every once in a while. It helped keep the DM boredom away.
I would say that you could preserve it and make it a spell focus that could add power to any spell that has a fire descriptor.

If you grafted it into yourself I would say that you would gain a few new powers. First a +2 str and con, that organ would pump more power to your muscles making them harder and your organs would work more effienctly. Second, I would allow you to be immune to fire, but weak to cold. I don't really know about the breath weapon though. I would probably have to say no on that. Third, any spell you would cast with a fire descriptor would be much more powerful but on the flipside any spell with a cold descriptor would be the weaker by the same amount.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-03, 03:12 PM
Should bathing yourself in dragons blood give you a Natural armour bonus? Just watch out for falling leaves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd)!

mikej
2009-04-03, 03:20 PM
Dragons are no different than hunting rabbits, just mention to the DM that I eat some of it and save rest for later. I try to sale the hide for extra money, see if a aristocrat wants a dragon skull for his/her collection ( real good conversation piece at parties ), or use my craft skill to make fun stuff. Other Dragons tend not to like me after awhile, since I prefer Dragonhide Armor.

newbDM
2009-04-03, 03:25 PM
Actually, there's a graft in Races of the Dragon that gives you a breath weapon, and requires fundamentum tissue. Still costs a lot of money, though.

Beat me to the suggestion.

According to Races of the Dragon it needs to be tissue samples from a yet unborn/hatched dragon to grow/create a graft to install in one's self. Think stemcells to make essentially the exact organ described in the Draconomican. It is all truly flavor text, though, and as a DM I would personally rule that if you have the actual organ off a freshly slain dragon, why bother growing your own? The only requirement I see needed is having the Dragongrafter feat.

Also, check out the dragon issue which deals with dragon parts.

Flying dragon boat anyone?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/7-1.png


Or I guess you can open up your own shop...

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/1-2.png



If you want something to show off "I kill a DRAGON!", why not a nice hat?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/5-1.png
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/2-1.png

Talic
2009-04-03, 03:29 PM
My opinions on the organ?

1) Core of a flying castle / airship.

2) Something powerfully elemental, perhaps a component in crafting a staff. Base it off the dragon's color and abilities.

newbDM
2009-04-03, 03:31 PM
Dragons are no different than hunting rabbits, just mention to the DM that I eat some of it and save rest for later. I try to sale the hide for extra money, see if a aristocrat wants a dragon skull for his/her collection ( real good conversation piece at parties ), or use my craft skill to make fun stuff. Other Dragons tend not to like me after awhile, since I prefer Dragonhide Armor.

Well, not quite.

Dragons are clearly sentient beings. Not only that, an average has higher Int, Wis, and Cha scores than only the most noble, educated, and powerful humans/humanoids in all the multiverse. Plus the fact that the young ones are thousands+ years old, meaning that they have experienced, enjoyed, and lived through more things than even the oldest elves ever will.

It is clearly evil to chop up these creature as in the images I posted above. It would be no different than a human wearing elf-skin leather armor, or a dwarf eating gnome or halfling flesh for dinner.

mikej
2009-04-03, 03:45 PM
Dragons are clearly sentient beings. Not only that, an average has higher Int, Wis, and Cha scores than only the most noble, educated, and powerful humans/humanoids in all the multiverse. Plus the fact that the young ones are thousands+ years old, meaning that they have experienced, enjoyed, and lived through more things than even the oldest elves ever will.


It trys to eat me, I eat it.

Also for the same reason its wrong for a dragon to eat a elf, human, or a halfling. They're sentient beings right? If I'm hired to kill a evil dragon thats been ravaging the town, I damn better find ways to get the most out of risking my life. I don't walk into the cave of a gold dragon for no better reason and say, "you taste pretty damn good medium rare"

newbDM
2009-04-03, 03:55 PM
It trys to eat me, I eat it.

Also for the same reason its wrong for a dragon to eat a elf, human, or a halfling. They're sentient beings right? If I'm hired to kill a evil dragon thats been ravaging the town, I damn better find ways to get the most out of risking my life. I don't walk into the cave of a gold dragon for no better reason and say, "you taste pretty damn good medium rare"

I see your point.

However, I see this more of a problem with the DMs. They seem to never portray dragons as more than savage killing and eating machines. They may occasionally strive for power, but I have only seen DMs go about this with nothing but brute force. I feel dragons were meant to be more than that, and to be used for more by DMs than what they have been diminished to.

Waspinator
2009-04-03, 04:02 PM
I'd argue that killing a dragon and grafting bits to yourself would be a good way to justify taking this half-dragon class post-character-creation:
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a

mikej
2009-04-03, 04:08 PM
They seem to never portray dragons as more than savage killing and eating machines. They may occasionally strive for power

Have you seen the white dragon's description entry?

I feel your pain, Dragons are surposed to be very charismatic and can really be good boss monsters. I especially enjoy Eberron because of how Dragons are portrayed in that setting.

Edit: I should have mention this earlier, I tend to play a lot Druids.

newbDM
2009-04-03, 04:27 PM
Have you seen the white dragon's description entry?

I feel your pain, Dragons are surposed to be very charismatic and can really be good boss monsters. I especially enjoy Eberron because of how Dragons are portrayed in that setting.

Edit: I should have mention this earlier, I tend to play a lot Druids.

OK, I'll give you the whites. They are essentially the equivalent of the cousin wearing a helmet, and eating crackers while sitting in the corner at the dragon family reunion.

And yes, I completely agree with them supposed to being characteristic creatures, and their their potential for being great villains (and ally NPCs as well).

I also like the Eberron take on dragons. Just another great part of an already great setting in my opinion. However, I also like how Faerun used them in the book Dragons of Faerun. They inspired me to take my own little twist on dragons for my hoembrewed setting. Although I threw in a bit of the Darksun and Council of Wyrms take on dragons into the mix a well.

ericgrau
2009-04-03, 04:37 PM
Geeze, the ancient black dragon was pissed enough when her husband was turned into a suit of armor. Imagine if all this was done to him.

Waspinator
2009-04-03, 04:54 PM
Of course, you make your dragon helmet and your children are likely to wind up as some other dragon's hat:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html

druid91
2009-04-04, 11:19 PM
dragon steak?

notagain111
2009-04-05, 12:00 AM
How about making it into a semi-organic tank of sorts? Its been done with bullette corpses, so why not make a dragon's corpse into a tank somehow?
even if you just took the lungs and the important bits to build a breath weapon turret it would still be completely awesome. if you could somehow get the legs to work as well that would solve the mobility issue... hmm... now im going to have to refine this idea and use it in my campaign.......

ShadowFighter15
2009-04-05, 12:35 AM
How about making it into a semi-organic tank of sorts? Its been done with bullette corpses, so why not make a dragon's corpse into a tank somehow?
even if you just took the lungs and the important bits to build a breath weapon turret it would still be completely awesome. if you could somehow get the legs to work as well that would solve the mobility issue... hmm... now im going to have to refine this idea and use it in my campaign.......

How on earth do people come up with ideas like this. It's a cool idea, just weird as well.

RS14
2009-04-05, 12:44 AM
If it were possible (and your DM will most probably not let this happen), I would try and figure a way to graft the organ into myself, so that I would gain the Dragon's efficient metabolism, energy immunity and breath weapon.

Oh, I'd totally allow the graft. I'd probably even grant Endurance free with it. Using it seriously though, would require a fortitude save, or result in rejection.

Let me stat this out, even.

The fundamentum is treated as an intelligent item with mental statistics equal to the dragon from which it came. It is not telepathic, nor does it have any other powers. Its "base ego" is equal to half the HD of the dragon, plus the sum of its intelligence, wisdom, and charisma modifiers. It naturally returns to this value at a rate of 1 point of ego per day.

The fundamentum may be grafted into any suitable individual not smaller than the dragon with relative ease (DC18 heal check) or any individual up to two size categories smaller by removing one lung, to be displaced by the liver, and by shifting the stomach and shortening the intestines to accommodate it. This requires two DC28 heal checks: one for success and another to prevent immediate rejection (see below). Although the latter operation is dangerous, the fundamentum is able to augment all the damaged host processes to grant normal function.

The host gains the Endurance feat, the use of a breath weapon, and the ability to temporarily augment his strength.

The breath weapon is related in shape and type to the breath weapon of the dragon from which the fundamentum originated, as a half-dragon. It deals damage equal to [HD/2]d4, with HD being the hit dice of the dragon from which it originated. A successful reflex save (DC 10+HD/2+[Con modifier of the host]) halves this damage. Using the breath weapon is a standard action. After use, it requires 1d4 rounds to recharge.

As an immediate action, the host may add a strength bonus of HD/4 to himself for 1d4 rounds.

However, using either the breath weapon or strength bonus demands an immediate fortitude save (DC 10+HD/2). If it fails, the fundamentum rejects the host. It may still be used, but the host suffers the following immediate consequences:

Fatigue.
Immediate infection with Red Ache, with a DC equal to 10+HD/2 or 15, whichever is higher.
The ego of the fundamentum increases by 1d12.

Immunity to disease protects the host from Red Ache, but he still suffers the other consequences.

Regardless of success or failure, use of either the breath weapon or the strength bonus increases the DC of all such further saves by 2. This increase returns to its normal level at a rate of 1/day.

The fundamentum retains the personality and alignment of the dragon from which it originated, and always considers itself superior to the host. However, it retains no memories of its life.

----

I don't know if it's balanced, but it seems cool.

Waspinator
2009-04-05, 01:02 AM
How about making it into a semi-organic tank of sorts? Its been done with bullette corpses, so why not make a dragon's corpse into a tank somehow?
even if you just took the lungs and the important bits to build a breath weapon turret it would still be completely awesome. if you could somehow get the legs to work as well that would solve the mobility issue... hmm... now im going to have to refine this idea and use it in my campaign.......

Maybe some kind of modified flesh golem with wand "turrets" mounted on it.

Ascension
2009-04-05, 01:31 AM
How about making it into a semi-organic tank of sorts? Its been done with bullette corpses, so why not make a dragon's corpse into a tank somehow?
even if you just took the lungs and the important bits to build a breath weapon turret it would still be completely awesome. if you could somehow get the legs to work as well that would solve the mobility issue... hmm... now im going to have to refine this idea and use it in my campaign.......

I'd make a zombie dragon, cut out its non-breath-weapon-related organs (It's not using them anyway, right?) and build a passenger compartment in the resulting cavity. Maybe knock off an HD or two to handwave the damage caused by permanently removing its vital organs. You could go skeleton and not have to worry about that, but the zombie dragon template is better.

ShadowFighter15
2009-04-05, 01:40 AM
I'd make a zombie dragon, cut out its non-breath-weapon-related organs (It's not using them anyway, right?) and build a passenger compartment in the resulting cavity. Maybe knock off an HD or two to handwave the damage caused by permanently removing its vital organs. You could go skeleton and not have to worry about that, but the zombie dragon template is better.

What would you do about the smell though? And I'm not sure the passengers would appreciate rotting flesh falling on them.

JeminiZero
2009-04-05, 02:40 AM
What would you do about the smell though? And I'm not sure the passengers would appreciate rotting flesh falling on them.


Preserve it by curing it as you would normal meat? Of course your ham zombie dragon would constantly attract carnivores wanting to take a bite out of it.

And if you do it right, you can cut off bits of your dragon for consumption, and then heal it (have a dread necromancer with you) so that it will grow right back!

Leon
2009-04-05, 06:44 AM
The Magic Pudding Dragon

VirOath
2009-04-05, 07:27 AM
Well, going on the spell focus idea, but taking it a step higher.

Grab a few scrap scales and make a staff. Something along the lines of a Free Maximized/Empowered spell with the fire descriptor at about the cooldown for the Breath Weapon of the dragon, or a set number of times per day/hour/minute to limit it's use per combat. Maybe put charges in it to fire off it's breath weapon as listed, ones that slowly regain over days or could be recharged. Or add in some fire spells to it. Or have it so that any spell channeled through the staff has it's damage changed to that of Fire as per the Elemental Subjugation feat.

Pick and choose, or multiple choice, and bring it up to your DM. Really just a good excuse to carry a cool dragon inspired staff with scales. Very distinctive.

Edit: Though I'd allow you to get away with not having to spend EXP, or cutting that cost on the crafting of it, depending on what you were after in it. But I'm also not very fond of the spending EXP to craft items ruling.

Randel
2009-04-05, 01:24 PM
For truly disgusting levels of cheesiness... take a sample of its tissue and use the clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) spell to grow a whole new dragon body to butcher again!

Then you could butcher all the needed parts off of the new dragon body, or if you are feeling particularly amoral you could wait for the dragons soul to re-enter the new body and then kill it again (might be necessary for some of the magical organs to work). This not only lets you truly get your moneys worth out of a single dragon and possibly have enough organs to deck out your whole team with whatever dragon items you feel like (and the potential to start your own dragon-steak fast food restaurant, though you might need a ring of regeneration, some hacksaws, a way to keep the still-living dragon immobile, and a willingness to become all-out chaotic evil)... but since the new body is created one level below the original then you could grab an elder dragon and just repeatedly clone and slay it to oblivion until its reduced to a level 1 decrepit weakling... then let it go free if it promises to behave itself from now on (this assumes that it doesn't just decide to stay in the afterlife.)

Oh, and no dragon-butchering thread would be complete without Doc Terminus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37tB1Jy6pLM).

Myrmex
2009-04-05, 02:05 PM
I like the idea of using the skull as a helmet. You can always use magic to shrink it down to size.

Narmoth
2009-04-05, 03:22 PM
When our group killed our first dragon, we used the skull as headpiece on our flying ship, and the hide to make an air baloon, giving us a zeppeliner-llike construction.

Now, were about to kill another dragon, and half of the group already thinks we should make a 2nd ship :smallbiggrin: