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Fixer
2009-04-03, 08:32 AM
I am not referring to the Healer class. I am referring to a character type. A character who does not engage in combat, period. A truly exalted healer and man of peace.

My first inclination, of course, is to use a cleric and go with the Vow of Peace/Poverty/Non-Violence route. This would allow the use of turning attempts to grant fast healing to companions, and access to the obvious spontaneous cure spells.

My curiosity, however, makes me wonder if someone else has already thought about this using other classes. I thought about the Dragon Shaman's auras and Touch of Vitality features (using Gold Dragon as a base for Heal skill) but was wondering about converting his draconic breath into something healing. I am unaware of any such feat or ability.

Therefore, I am putting forth to the braintrust that is GiTP and asking for your favorite healing combinations. My hope is there is some way of combining certain aspects of the various characters to make an Ultimate Healer.

imperialspectre
2009-04-03, 08:39 AM
Cleric 5/Combat Medic 5/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 probably works fine as is. You'll have a fairly ridiculous number of turn attempts, which you can convert into healing as you mentioned above.

Combat Medic is from Heroes of Battle, Radiant Servant is from Complete Divine.

Oh, and you're probably just as well off without the Vows. Mostly they just make life suck for your party members, and that's no fun for anybody.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-03, 08:52 AM
Oh, and you're probably just as well off without the Vows. Mostly they just make life suck for your party members, and that's no fun for anybody.

I had a game where I did have all three of those Vows.

None of the other players complained.

That said, the biggest fight in the game was with a player character (who was a vampire paladin of Kelemvor), so it wasn't exactly a standard game.

Fixer
2009-04-03, 09:11 AM
My biggest problem with the Radiant Servant of Pelor is he doesn't get great domains (Healing is good, the others not so much). Otherwise I agree that would make a great healer. I don't see what Combat Medic offers comparatively, though. It doesn't seem that great of an addition.

But, that sort of healer is 'normal'. I was hoping someone had experience with another kind of healer that wasn't so normal.

Starscream
2009-04-03, 12:13 PM
How about the alternate druid class feature Spontaneous Rejuvenation? It isn't very powerful, but it has the advantage of affecting all your party members (within 30 feet anyway) at the same time, and doesn't require touching them.

In a combat situation standing back and using that to grant everyone fast healing for a few rounds might be a better overall deal than healing people one at a time.

Fixer
2009-04-03, 12:34 PM
Ok, that's not bad. Have you ever used it? How does it work during play?

Scorpina
2009-04-03, 12:39 PM
In terms of not a good healer in the walking-bandage sense of the term, Healer[Minatures Handbook]/Combat Medic [Heroes of Battle] seems like it might be a good way to go. I forget why, since I don't have the books in front of me, but I seem to remember thinking that a Healer/Mystic Wanderer [Magic of Faerun] would also work well.

Fixer
2009-04-03, 12:44 PM
The Healer class, honestly, seemed terribly weak to me. I cannot imagine justifying it in any build over a cleric.

Combat Medic looks like a gimmick prestige class and, after reviewing, doesn't appear to offer anything worthwhile to a healer that can't be obtained easier through other means.

Draz74
2009-04-03, 12:45 PM
The Lifebond Vestments Soulmeld might open up some interesting possibilities.

Heal an ally up to a certain amount per hour, take half the damage yourself. This is especially good if you have a way to heal yourself automatically (e.g. Vow of Poverty at high levels, or Dragon Shaman Vigor aura if your health is already below half).

The amount of healing from the soulmeld is pretty good if it's filled to maximum essentia capacity -- which means, if you don't want to be a full meldshaper, I recommend being a psionic character and picking up the Psycarnum Infusion feat. Expend psionic focus to treat any soulmeld as "full" of essentia for 1 round.

As long as we're talking about incarnum, though, there's another soulmeld that augments any healing on its wearer.

So ... Wilder / Dragon Shaman / Incarnate? (Wilder for CHA synergy and a couple of healing powers, mostly Body Adjustment. Plus access to Psycarnum Infusion.) Hmmm. Still might not be as good a healer as a simple cleric, just because of the failures of multiclassing. But if you're not looking for a "better than a cleric" healer, just a dedicated healer who uses unusual methods to keep the party up, I'm sure you could do ok with a build like this, plus Exalted feats.

At the very least, I'm pretty sure a Cleric with an Incarnate dip comes out to be a better healer than a straight Cleric.

Scorpina
2009-04-03, 12:50 PM
The Healer class, honestly, seemed terribly weak to me. I cannot imagine justifying it in any build over a cleric.

From a powergaming point of view, probably not. It's deisgned to be a healer and little or nothing besides. That's the advantage it has from a roleplaying standpoint, it lets you play a healer without having to play an armoured killing machine too.

Also, unicorns are awesome.

Fixer
2009-04-03, 12:54 PM
So ... Wilder / Dragon Shaman / Incarnate? (Wilder for CHA synergy and a couple of healing powers, mostly Body Adjustment. Plus access to Psycarnum Infusion.) Hmmm. Still might not be as good a healer as a simple cleric, just because of the failures of multiclassing. But if you're not looking for a "better than a cleric" healer, just a dedicated healer who uses unusual methods to keep the party up, I'm sure you could do ok with a build like this, plus Exalted feats.

This is the sort of uniqueness I was searching for. I am not sure how viable it is, but it does meat the uniqueness qualification. Thanks. Still hunting for more, though.


From a powergaming point of view, probably not. It's deisgned to be a healer and little or nothing besides. That's the advantage it has from a roleplaying standpoint, it lets you play a healer without having to play an armoured killing machine too.

Also, unicorns are awesome.Alas, the groups I play with tend to be a powergaming crowd and not role-players. As a result, I need to make certain that my Ultimate Healer can withstand dangerous opposition (not necessarily defeat or destroy, just withstand).

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-03, 12:56 PM
But, if I remember correctly, Healer must prepare all spells, and lacks any unique spells. Therefore, a cleric can be a better healer than the healer class. Cue Irony.

Starscream
2009-04-03, 01:18 PM
Ok, that's not bad. Have you ever used it? How does it work during play?

I used it once, but it was sort of an afterthought. Basically I was playing a druid who focused on Wild Shape, and saw no need to spontaneously summon, so I took this instead.

But it came in handy pretty often. Because it lasted for 3 rounds every time, I could cast it and then go do other things while it benefited both me and my party members. And because I was mostly wild shaper I had no problem with sacrificing the spell slots.

It was pretty good for out of combat healing as well. Other than affecting everyone, the main advantage is that you know exactly how much will be healed without any random element. Makes it almost like a mass Lay on Hands in that respect. Of course a cleric's cure spells can technically heal more, but you need multiple castings to affect everyone, and if your rolls stink.

In fact, the only downside is that the feature you are giving up is such a good one. But if you want to focus on healing it isn't a bad choice. Druids can take this feature, cast cure spells, and use the Vigor chain of spells.

Of course, druids can do EVERYTHING, often better than the classes who are specifically designed to do it.

Draz74
2009-04-03, 01:50 PM
This is the sort of uniqueness I was searching for. I am not sure how viable it is, but it does meat the uniqueness qualification. Thanks. Still hunting for more, though.

Hmmm, maybe drop the Dragon Shaman aspect of it ... which means you don't need CHA synergy anymore, so you'll be better off with a Psion or Ardent instead of a Wilder.

Neither Psion nor Ardent has access to all the best healing powers, so either one will have to use Expanded Knowledge to access some things. Which means Psion is probably better, since it has bonus feats. (Besides, who needs Medium BAB or armor proficiency on a Vow of Peace character?)

Yeah, I think Azurin Psion (Egoist) 17 / Incarnate 3 could be an awesome healer indeed. At least if liberal magic-psionics transparency is in effect (so that the Therapeutic Mantle soulmeld, for example, will work with powers instead of spells).

Key soulmelds:
Lifebond Vestments, Therapeutic Mantle

Key feats:
Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Expanded Knowledge (x2), Psicrystal Affinity, Psycarnum Infusion, Psionic Meditation, Linked Power, Practiced Manifester

Key powers:
Open Lesser Chakra, Vigor, True Metabolism, Mend Wounds, Share Pain, Empathic Transfer, Body Adjustment, Psionic Revivify, Psionic Restoration, Restore Extremity, Hustle, Schism

Fixer
2009-04-03, 02:17 PM
Actually, those are pretty good. Let me see what I can do with those.

If you are an Elan with Lifebond Vestments (from the Shape Soulmeld feat, for example) you can convert PP to HP healing directly (using Resilience to prevent the damage you deal to yourself) at a rate of 1 PP for 4 HP (or 1PP for 8HP if you are using Enhanced Elan Repletion, which I think is the wrong name for the feat). All you need to do is get an essentia pool to boost the limit on Lifebond Vestments.

Hmmm... wonder how I can tweak that one.

Rhiannon87
2009-04-03, 02:21 PM
My biggest problem with the Radiant Servant of Pelor is he doesn't get great domains (Healing is good, the others not so much). Otherwise I agree that would make a great healer. I don't see what Combat Medic offers comparatively, though. It doesn't seem that great of an addition.

But, that sort of healer is 'normal'. I was hoping someone had experience with another kind of healer that wasn't so normal.

You can always talk to your DM and see if they'll let you tweak the Radiant Servant PrC to something else. In one of my games we've got a Radiant Servant of Lliira. I think that just so long as one of your domains is healing, the rest is just fluff.

Complete Divine also has some great feats for this sort of thing. Augment Healing: add +2/spell level points of healing (so you'd add an extra 4 points to a cure moderate wounds spell); Sacred Boost (burn a turn attempt, maximize all healing spells cast w/in 30 ft of you for the next round, including a spell you might cast on your next turn); and Sacred Healing (give allies fast healing 3). Grab Extra Turning for more turn attempts per day, and you're healing on a stick.

Fixer
2009-04-03, 02:42 PM
Yeah, but those all revolve around the vanilla-type healer we all know about. I was wondering if there were other options.

Right now I am working on the elan egoist/incarnate concept and keep hitting the 16hp / hour / person limitation of Lifebond Vestments (with 3 points of essentia at level 6). Now, 2PP for 16 points of healing per person per hour is about on-par with two cure light wounds spells cast by a 5th level caster, if that caster was limited to casting those two spells per hour per person, which he is not.

Of course, it completely fails the same comparisons at higher levels. :/ Too bad, it was a decent concept.

EDIT: Actually, comparing that to a Lesser Vigor spell, you still don't have the same kind of efficient healing: 1 PP healing 8HP at level 6 compared to 1 spell level (essentially the same) healing 15HP at level 5.

Baalthazaq
2009-04-03, 03:10 PM
One thing you might want to try:
Dragon Magazine 347 has "Domain Focus" Clerics which get 1 domain instead of 2, but get to double the effect of the domain.

For healing that's +2 Caster levels to all healing.

You might want to combine this with Domain Casting from PHB 2. You lose nothing as you still convert to the other cure spells, but you gain heal and mass heal instead of the cures in those two slots.

Complete divine lets you (with any degree of neutrality, Neutral Good I'd assume here?) and 4 ranks of knowledge nature you can spontaneously use Summon Nature's Ally too. (So what?) So you can summon Unicorns, which heal. (Here don't forget the use of the D3 or the D4+1 Unicorns at higher levels, and hell, you can always use it to summon something bigger in an emergency (Even with a vow of non violence, D4+1 Earth Elementals will block any door, or grapple any foe).

Also, as a house rule, you might want to ask for even more unicorns at higher level. So a level 8 summon actually gives you D3*D3*D3*D3 unicorns, or D4+1*D4+1 unicorns. (Then sudden maximize if you really want to be abuse your GM's kindness. :))

Spirit Domain from Dragon 312 will let you perform touch spells on one (predetermined) person up to long range. PGF has a domain with auto Contingency Cure light wounds on <0 HP once per day.

Complete Divine's Contemplative will give you extra domains too if you're lacking.

Finally, never underestimate something like Timestop for heals. Regulars don't work but any mass cures or mass heals will. Taking the time domain gives you improved initiative, which also lets you hold an action for special occassions and makes sure you act in a timely manner.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-04-03, 03:25 PM
Ok so I like where you are going with the Egoist.
I think taking into account a psicrystal, Share pain, body adjustment, empathetic transfer, and vigor you could make a decent healer

I would highly sugest taking a 1 level dip in dragonshaman, Vigor is to good to pass up plus the d10 hp will help alot. Then 5 in egoist so you get all the correct psi powers. Also want to set empathetic transfer up with vigor on your psicrystal.


so i would sugest.
5 egoist/1 DS /2-3 incarnate
Feats of
Bonus:Psicrystal affinity
1st:Empower power
3rd:Psicrystal Containment
6th: Psi body
etc
Also make sure your Psicrystal takes Psi body/wildtalent for its feats.
I wonder if we can expand on it any or find a race with fast healing or some sort of healing ability.


Also ps my browsers acting funny so sory ahead of time if i double post.



Edit: OO just though of sum thing...

What about egoist 3/DS1/Dread necro 1
Race is some sort of undead tomb tainted or necropolitan. Just use empathetic transfer to heal... with Psi crystal thats gonna be alot you can absorb then heal your self with dread necro... all the while still projecting vigor as it isn't positive or negative energy.

Draz74
2009-04-03, 03:26 PM
Right now I am working on the elan egoist/incarnate concept and keep hitting the 16hp / hour / person limitation of Lifebond Vestments (with 3 points of essentia at level 6). Now, 2PP for 16 points of healing per person per hour is about on-par with two cure light wounds spells cast by a 5th level caster, if that caster was limited to casting those two spells per hour per person, which he is not.

First of all, where are you getting the 16 hp limit from? Psion 3/Incarnate 3 can do 19 hp/hour per ally. Psion 5/Incarnate 1 can only do 13 hp/hour per ally. Somewhere there's a misunderstanding here.

Secondly, I think in practice, 19 hp/hour is quite a lot of healing at Level 6. If your party is taking much more than 19 damage per character per battle, they're probably doing something wrong.

But on the other hand, I never intended for the Soulmeld to be this build's only kind of healing. By Level 6, you should definitely have access to Empathic Transfer to fill in the gaps when the Soulmeld has been maxed out for an hour.


EDIT: Actually, comparing that to a Lesser Vigor spell, you still don't have the same kind of efficient healing: 1 PP healing 8HP at level 6 compared to 1 spell level (essentially the same) healing 15HP at level 5.

Ah, but that's why you shouldn't be powering the soulmeld (or Empathic Transfer for that matter) with Elan Resilience. The Vigor power is much more efficient.

1 PP gets you 5 temp HP. That's 9-10 HP of allies that you can heal with the soulmeld, for a mere 1 PP. That's almost as efficient as Lesser Vigor.

Not good enough? OK, that's why you have a psicrystal. Share the Vigor power with your Psicrystal, then manifest Share Pain on it. At level 6, that means you can give yourself, effectively, 60 temporary HP for 9 PP. Which means you can heal allies up to 120 HP. That's more efficient than Lesser Vigor ... and Share Pain lasts for hours, so you won't have to re-use 3 PP on it very often.

As a bonus, if you're using Vigor instead of Elan Resilience, you can be another race. Like an Azurin (bonus feat and 1 racial essentia).

Tar Palantir
2009-04-03, 03:45 PM
Also, I'm AFB so I don't know specifics, but I believe there's a cleric alt class feature that lets you spontaneously cast domain spells instead of cure/inflicts. Combine with Radiant Servant and Healing Domain, and say hello to free empowered, maximized, or empower/maximized cure spells!

RagnaroksChosen
2009-04-03, 03:55 PM
Hmm also 3rd level necro spell healing touch 1d6 per two caster levels healed to target.

I'm sure a good necro could find a way to get that back or to get temp hp to deal with the dmg.

Or just be a Warforged necromancer and heal a pc then case repair spells.

I think i need to go shower after saying that Warforged necromancer.... ick

Arcane_Snowman
2009-04-03, 04:41 PM
Healing is a dastardly inefficient role, because there is no difference between being on 1 hit point or 100, other than you're that much closer to death. This makes healing in combat an ungrateful endeavour, especially seeing as you could be killng the enemy instead of trying to ondo their work.

If you really want to be healing everyone, do this instead, get Divine Metamagic Persistent, Nightsticks then Persist Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium/Complete Divine); this will provide everyone with one hit every round, that's 10 hp every minute, 600 every hour, that means that resting to regain hit points is no longer a factor.

Waspinator
2009-04-03, 05:00 PM
Hmm also 3rd level necro spell healing touch 1d6 per two caster levels healed to target.

I'm sure a good necro could find a way to get that back or to get temp hp to deal with the dmg.

Or just be a Warforged necromancer and heal a pc then case repair spells.

I think i need to go shower after saying that Warforged necromancer.... ick

Look at this, and despair!

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2779/warforgednecromancerbyd.jpg

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-03, 05:09 PM
Or just be a Warforged necromancer and heal a pc then case repair spells.

I think i need to go shower after saying that Warforged necromancer.... ick'There is no real difference between a live body and a dead one. They have the same basic structure. So why should I not attempt to use them to further my own ends? Is tricking a live person into helping any morally better than compelling a corpse?'

I should do that now. Sounds awesome.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-04-03, 05:32 PM
I don't care what you guys say warforged necros feel wrong.


So on the drive home though of some thing

Dragonwrought kobold
Egosit 5/sorc 4/rest in cerebremancer
Taking all the psicrystal stuff before + dragonic vigor and some of the necro spells...

False life
and all the other drain ish spells
sounds like a fun idea now.

arguskos
2009-04-03, 05:36 PM
Do warforged qualify for Tomb-Tainted Soul, and if so, does it get around the whole "half-effective healing" clause they've got going on? If so, then a Warforged TN Cleric who spontaneously converts to Inflict, takes Spontaneous Healing (so he can convert to either Cure of Inflict), and takes Tomb-Tainted Soul for himself would be a.. different sorta healer. Still basic Cure spells, but it's a twist on the traditional Healbitch role. Esp if you play up the whole necromancer aspect.

AmberVael
2009-04-03, 06:03 PM
'There is no real difference between a live body and a dead one. They have the same basic structure. So why should I not attempt to use them to further my own ends? Is tricking a live person into helping any morally better than compelling a corpse?'

I should do that now. Sounds awesome.

That sounds disturbingly similar to something that Dr. Manhattan might say (or, in fact, already said).

Anyways... unique super healer, huh?

How about...
Cleric 3/Warlock 2/Eldritch Disciple X (you only need one level, but you can keep going for dual casting)/Something Else

Focus on eldritch blast shaping invocations and then get Healing Blast. Infinite healing every day, and with the right invocations you can get some great healing going.
Eldritch Spear allows you to have some pretty good range for your healing, while Eldritch Chain will let you target all of your allies.
You could also be wacky and get Eldritch Glaive and full attack your allies with a healing glaive. That would be fun. :smalltongue:

Also, it might be worth looking into a different class than cleric for your three casting levels. Favored soul has Cha synergy and spontaneous casting (fun fun) but unfortunately you'd need four levels of it. Ur-Priest would be interesting to toss in, but since Eldritch Disciple requires you worship a deity, the contrast between those classes would need to be figured out...

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-03, 06:10 PM
Note that the ability that you're using there requires a turn attempt to use, so Cleric is your best bet. Also, Doom could work.

Launchpad
2009-04-03, 07:15 PM
The nice thing about Combat Medic is that it gives you the ability to spontaneously cast heal even if it's not on your class spell list.

And it only requires you to cast cure light wounds. So a Bard would qualify.

Getting the 8 ranks in heal takes some time (or the halfling variant from dragon magic) but its a way for bards to cast Heal. If you combine it with Sublime Chord you can cast heal faster and some other nice spells most healers won't get.

It might not be the Ultimate Healer you are looking for but it should be something unusual.

Atsu333
2009-04-03, 07:49 PM
Wasn't there a ToB build that basically punched people to heal them, and he had a decent flurry?

Os1ris09
2009-04-03, 08:13 PM
Healing is a dastardly inefficient role, because there is no difference between being on 1 hit point or 100, other than you're that much closer to death. This makes healing in combat an ungrateful endeavour, especially seeing as you could be killng the enemy instead of trying to ondo their work.

If you really want to be healing everyone, do this instead, get Divine Metamagic Persistent, Nightsticks then Persist Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium/Complete Divine); this will provide everyone with one hit every round, that's 10 hp every minute, 600 every hour, that means that resting to regain hit points is no longer a factor.

Where is the Divine Metamagic Persistant feat? Which book?

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 08:28 PM
The Healer class, honestly, seemed terribly weak to me. I cannot imagine justifying it in any build over a cleric.
It's viable with a few small changes....

1) Expanded spell list. Any spell with the "healing" subtype, or that removes status afflictions, should be on their list, as well as Sanctified spells. I can send a good list drawn from many different sources. Still not the flexibility of a Cleric, but at least an improvement.

2) Base casting off of Cha. This lets you get the most of all your various Cha-based class features. Honestly, I don't know what they were thinking with the divided attribute focus.

3) Allow spontaneous casting off the "Healing Domain" list. Stupid move, not having this in the first place.

3) Allow metal armor. Seriously, the guy who needs to patch everyone up is supposed to be the one most likely to need patching? Light armor I can see, but no metal is just a slap in the face.

...yeah, that's about it. Healers get some nice boosts to their healing spells (mine was healing 6 hp with a Cure Minor, and 1d8+13 with a Cure Light), unicorns are pretty awesome, and Rez as an SLA bypasses costs. With a Cha focus they'll play very differently than Clerics, and, really, they can be made to work. "Cloudy Conjuration" is your friend, as is taking the role of party leader.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-03, 08:31 PM
Where is the Divine Metamagic Persistant feat? Which book?

Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are both in Complete Divine (they're two seperate feats).

Divine Metamagic is selected for a metamagic feat ("that you know" was errata'd in), and lets you spend turn attempts to spontaneously apply the metamagic feat, rather than needing to use the higher-level spell slot in advance.

Persistent Spell is a metamagic feat (available in the Divine section on d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell)) that is a +6 metamagic adjustment to change a spell's duration to "1 day" rather than whatever it was prior (there's some limits).

But for a three feats and seven turn attempts (which you may need to get more feats for...) and a 3rd level (or higher) spell slot, you can give the entire party fast healing all day.

"Traditionally", though, it's used for the C-Zilla by using the rather nifty personal Cleric buffs. It goes much better on all-party buffs, though.

Salvonus
2009-04-03, 08:49 PM
That sounds disturbingly similar to something that Dr. Manhattan might say (or, in fact, already said).

Anyways... unique super healer, huh?

How about...
Cleric 3/Warlock 2/Eldritch Disciple X (you only need one level, but you can keep going for dual casting)/Something Else

Focus on eldritch blast shaping invocations and then get Healing Blast. Infinite healing every day, and with the right invocations you can get some great healing going.
Eldritch Spear allows you to have some pretty good range for your healing, while Eldritch Chain will let you target all of your allies.
You could also be wacky and get Eldritch Glaive and full attack your allies with a healing glaive. That would be fun. :smalltongue:

It sounds pretty cool... But don't you have to expend a turn undead attempt each time you use a healing blast? On second reading, I'm really not sure. Sorta confusing...

As for other ways to go about healing... Well, it's not the strongest option, maybe, but the Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) is a unique way to be a psionic healer.

Aside from that... Well, if you're looking for a Cleric PrC that isn't Radiant Servant, the Singer of Concordance from Races of the Dragon is kinda neat. The Aspects aren't amazingly powerful, but they're quite flavourful. The capstone is actually pretty amazing, if your DM lets you get away with it. :smalltongue:

Os1ris09
2009-04-03, 08:57 PM
Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are both in Complete Divine (they're two seperate feats).

Divine Metamagic is selected for a metamagic feat ("that you know" was errata'd in), and lets you spend turn attempts to spontaneously apply the metamagic feat, rather than needing to use the higher-level spell slot in advance.

Persistent Spell is a metamagic feat (available in the Divine section on d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell)) that is a +6 metamagic adjustment to change a spell's duration to "1 day" rather than whatever it was prior (there's some limits).

But for a three feats and seven turn attempts (which you may need to get more feats for...) and a 3rd level (or higher) spell slot, you can give the entire party fast healing all day.

"Traditionally", though, it's used for the C-Zilla by using the rather nifty personal Cleric buffs. It goes much better on all-party buffs, though.

Couldn't you though just buy alot of nightsticks. Like four or so and have a high CHA to cover most of your spell's.

Say 4x Nightsticks (16 turn attempts) [30,000 gold pieces :smallfrown:] and a CHA of 20 (5 + 1) to get 22 times so you could divine persist 3/day?

Jack_Simth
2009-04-03, 09:00 PM
Couldn't you though just buy alot of nightsticks. Like four or so and have a high CHA to cover most of your spell's.

Say 4x Nightsticks (16 turn attempts) [30,000 gold pieces :smallfrown:] and a CHA of 20 (5 + 1) to get 22 times so you could divine persist 3/day?
Depends on the DM. Some will let them stack, others cite the "same source" rule, and they don't ... but the Healer really only needs to persist the one spell. Others, while useful, aren't necessary to the primary goal.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-04-03, 09:16 PM
I think the OP was looking for alternate healing sources then vigor and cure line. Though DMM Persist Mass Lesser vigor is wicked nice.

Wasn't there a warlock PRC that allowed healing?

Fixer
2009-04-03, 09:44 PM
Actually, I am looking for non-cleric healers that are functional outside the pure RP department. Everyone knows how to make a cleric into a healer, that doesn't require any real effort. I am trying to find other viable healers that don't rely on the cleric class, or extensive multiclassing that weakens the character to the point of being unplayable in a reasonably powered campaign.

sonofzeal
2009-04-03, 09:52 PM
Actually, I am looking for non-cleric healers that are functional outside the pure RP department. Everyone knows how to make a cleric into a healer, that doesn't require any real effort. I am trying to find other viable healers that don't rely on the cleric class, or extensive multiclassing that weakens the character to the point of being unplayable in a reasonably powered campaign.
Artificer with Metamagic Item Infusion and an Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor?

Binder who favours Buer?

Crusader who heals with punches?

Dread Necromancer with Tomb Tainted Soul?

...that covers the major ones...

RagnaroksChosen
2009-04-03, 09:55 PM
Actually, I am looking for non-cleric healers that are functional outside the pure RP department. Everyone knows how to make a cleric into a healer, that doesn't require any real effort. I am trying to find other viable healers that don't rely on the cleric class, or extensive multiclassing that weakens the character to the point of being unplayable in a reasonably powered campaign.

Awsome.. Hows that egoist coming?

Did you see the spell Healing touch[heals 1d6/2 levels you take that much]? (necro 3rd lvl)
Mabye some sort of necro/egoist build?

PinkysBrain
2009-04-03, 10:11 PM
Combat Medic looks like a gimmick prestige class and, after reviewing, doesn't appear to offer anything worthwhile to a healer that can't be obtained easier through other means.
DC 15 + class level + wisdom modifier + 4 (from VoN) sanctuary effect on every healing spell is pretty good ... very much worth the single level dip.

Vortling
2009-04-03, 10:52 PM
Actually, I am looking for non-cleric healers that are functional outside the pure RP department. Everyone knows how to make a cleric into a healer, that doesn't require any real effort. I am trying to find other viable healers that don't rely on the cleric class, or extensive multiclassing that weakens the character to the point of being unplayable in a reasonably powered campaign.

A pair of options for you from the lovely Tome of Battle, different but neither of them really meshes with your requirement for a peaceful fellow:

Crusader 20. Zero out of combat healing, but the in combat healing they can produce is both useful and amazing. They also heal as part of their melee attack so no lack of actions from healing.

Unarmed Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/ Unarmed Swordsage 14. Use Touch of the Shadow Sun to punch people, then heal your allies for the same amount you damage the enemy.

Both of these will work quite well in a reasonably power-gamed environment.

AmberVael
2009-04-03, 11:18 PM
It sounds pretty cool... But don't you have to expend a turn undead attempt each time you use a healing blast? On second reading, I'm really not sure. Sorta confusing...

Yeah, I thought that was in there, but it took me like five times to find it, and I only noticed after posting my advice. :smallsigh:

But if you're a charisma focused person (which you should be), and pick the right feats and domains, it might be worth it anyways.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-03, 11:29 PM
Actually, I am looking for non-cleric healers that are functional outside the pure RP department. Everyone knows how to make a cleric into a healer, that doesn't require any real effort. I am trying to find other viable healers that don't rely on the cleric class, or extensive multiclassing that weakens the character to the point of being unplayable in a reasonably powered campaign.

Ah. Let's see...
1) Wizard with the Repair line in a party of Warforged.
2) Wizard with the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat (complete mage), and a weapon with the Vampiric property (magic item compendium; Summon Elemental, hit it with weapon to heal a small amount, repeat; hand the weapon off to the other person if someone else is injured)
3) In a sufficiently large party, three Wizards, Sorcerers (or other arcane casters, although they need Obtain Familiar, as well) with Improved Familiar (Formian Worker) can do infinite non-combat healing in a party of Warforged (Make Whole). Eight of them can do it in a party of the living (Cure Serious).
4) A Ghost with Malevolence (Racial pick), Drainging Touch (Racial Pick), and the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat can do infinite self healing... and with Malevolence, the Ghost is the other person (Summon elemental, drain it to heal a small amount, repeat; posess injured party member, Summon Elemental, drain it to heal a small amount, repeat)

RagnaroksChosen
2009-04-04, 01:33 AM
A feat that may help,

Magic of the land.

add that to the list of egoist/necromancer....

I think going

Venerable desert Kobold
Egoist 3/ sorc 4/ ceribmancer thing 10/3 egoist
1Psi affinity/Dragonwrought
3psi containment
4 familiar
6 draconic vigor
9 magic of the land
12 any metapsi feat sugestion would be empower

Build starts to shine around lvl 9
When you have all you heal abilies and drain abilites

Abilites needed:

Psi:
Vigor, Share pain, Empathetic transfer, body adjustment

Spells:
False life, Vampirice touch, Healing touch


So you have a few options to heal with. Empathetic transfer or healing touch.

you should have share pain up on your psi crystal and your familar... so you will have a ton of HP to throw around..

Im sure there are other things to add... i may have to run this character at soem time as the "healer".

Comments or sugestions

Launchpad
2009-04-04, 04:48 AM
Actually, I am looking for non-cleric healers that are functional outside the pure RP department. Everyone knows how to make a cleric into a healer, that doesn't require any real effort. I am trying to find other viable healers that don't rely on the cleric class, or extensive multiclassing that weakens the character to the point of being unplayable in a reasonably powered campaign.

In case it was ignored the first time:

The nice thing about Combat Medic is that it gives you the ability to spontaneously cast heal even if it's not on your class spell list.

And it only requires you to cast cure light wounds. So a Bard would qualify.

Getting the 8 ranks in heal takes some time (or the halfling variant from dragon magic) but its a way for bards to cast Heal. If you combine it with Sublime Chord you can cast heal faster then the normal Bard (and as fast as druids) and some other nice spells most healers won't get.

It might not be the Ultimate Healer you are looking for but it should be something unusual and playable in a reasonably powered campaign.

Chronos
2009-04-05, 03:26 PM
Remember, a healer has to do more than just cure HP damage. You also need to be able to fix all of those nasty status afflictions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm) like ability damage, disease, negative levels, curses, petrification, nauseated, and dead. Clerics (and cleric-like divine casters like Favored Souls, with the right spells known) can handle all of these, but very few non-divine classes can. Dragon shamans can fix many of these with their Touch of Vitality, but not until level 11; psionic classes can do some but not all with powers that simulate spells like Restoration, Psionic; and truenamers (ugh) can fix most things with Breath of Cleansing or Breath of Recovery, but not until level 10 and 18 respectively. And so far as I know, nobody but a full divine spellcaster can bring back someone who's been dead for more than a few rounds, until you get into the realm of Wish.

imperialspectre
2009-04-05, 03:35 PM
Reality Revision allows psions to revive the dead, but it's 9th-level. Limited Wish can duplicate a Raise Dead spell, so that works for arcane casters.

So a bard with Combat Medic (to get heal) and Sublime Chord (to get limited wish) could do everything except negative levels.

Assassin89
2009-04-05, 03:51 PM
Has anyone considered the feat Augment Healing from Complete Divine? As it does +2 per spell level, it is very useful and the only requirements are 4 ranks in healing, meaning a bard or any other class that has heal as a crossclass skill could qualify at 5th level, assuming maximum ranks in the heal skill.

Deth Muncher
2009-04-05, 04:00 PM
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2779/warforgednecromancerbyd.jpg

That is made of awesome. From what is that?

Jack_Simth
2009-04-05, 04:04 PM
Theoretically, a pure Core sorcerer could pull it off - unlike most spellcasters, the Sorcerer's Spells line says "primarily from", rather than "from" when referencing the spell list. Every other Core caster uses "from" - the Sorcerer, "Primarily from". Theoretically, you could have a Sorcerer with Druid spell, Cleric spell, Wu Jen spells, or whatever. That could do it.

Zaq
2009-04-05, 04:15 PM
A War Weaver requires arcane spells to enter, but you can put whatever spells you want into the tapestry. You can load up a bunch of healing spells into the tapestry and use them much more swiftly and efficiently than you could casting them one by one. You could use a bard to qualify (because they can cast Cure spells), or you could take a few levels of wizard/DN/sorc/whatever to qualify and use those spells to focus on buffs and abjurations, then use your divine spells to actually heal damage. Your caster level might suffer a bit, but it's doable. You could also go Bard/Weaver/Lyric Thaumaturge to get more bard spells per day, if you want to focus on pure bard spellcasting. Sublime Chord is another possibility, but meh, who needs it? It's powerful, but you're looking for something unique, not cookie-cutter strength.

Also, it's pretty obvious, but the Healing Lorecall spell (from spell compendium, and probably complete divine or complete adventurer) is a must-have for any dedicated healer.

Chronos
2009-04-05, 04:24 PM
Oh, and if we're going to be going a spell route, another very useful feat is the Touch of Healing reserve feat, from (I think) Complete Champion. As long as you have a 2nd-level or higher healing spell available to cast, you can bring everyone up to half for free, meaning you can conserve your spell slots or other limited resources better.

And Touch of Healing or the dragon shaman's Vigor aura either one synergize well with Incarnate. First of all, you can get everyone up to half, then use Lifebond Vestments to get them all up to full, then heal yourself back up to half again. Then, you can take essentia out of your Vitality Belt, heal yourself up to half again, and then put the essentia back into your belt, leaving you with more like 3/4 your maximum HP total. This latter only really works well if you're primarily an incarnate, though, since Vitality Belt is one of the rare few soulmelds that depends on your meldshaper level.

Waspinator
2009-04-05, 04:45 PM
That is made of awesome. From what is that?

http://d-mac.deviantart.com/art/Warforged-Necromancer-67143865

The "toadforged" is hilarious.

Myrmex
2009-04-05, 05:15 PM
Is there anyway to use positive energy to give people lots of temp. HP, like a planar bubble from the positive energy plane or something? Or just plane shift your allies into the positive energy plane for a little bit, then bring 'em back before they pop.


Healing is a dastardly inefficient role, because there is no difference between being on 1 hit point or 100, other than you're that much closer to death. This makes healing in combat an ungrateful endeavour, especially seeing as you could be killng the enemy instead of trying to ondo their work.

If you really want to be healing everyone, do this instead, get Divine Metamagic Persistent, Nightsticks then Persist Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium/Complete Divine); this will provide everyone with one hit every round, that's 10 hp every minute, 600 every hour, that means that resting to regain hit points is no longer a factor.

In general, this is true, but if you are in fights when the beat stick goes down in one or two hits, it's useful to be able to keep them up.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-05, 07:22 PM
How about...
Cleric 3/Warlock 2/Eldritch Disciple X (you only need one level, but you can keep going for dual casting)/Something Else

Focus on eldritch blast shaping invocations and then get Healing Blast. Infinite healing every day, and with the right invocations you can get some great healing going.
Eldritch Spear allows you to have some pretty good range for your healing, while Eldritch Chain will let you target all of your allies.
You could also be wacky and get Eldritch Glaive and full attack your allies with a healing glaive. That would be fun. :smalltongue:

Also, it might be worth looking into a different class than cleric for your three casting levels. Favored soul has Cha synergy and spontaneous casting (fun fun) but unfortunately you'd need four levels of it. Ur-Priest would be interesting to toss in, but since Eldritch Disciple requires you worship a deity, the contrast between those classes would need to be figured out...

Healing Blast does indeed eat up Turn Attempts... not that you are going to be short of these, however it can be twinked somewhat better:

First off, I direct you to Spontaneous Divine Caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) rules.

At first, it looks like Fail, because of the craptastic number of spells known. However, it's a spontaneous caster who gets spells on the same level as the guys who prepare, which is a plus, and you get all your domain spells automatically known. So, here's what we do:

Get a Spontaneous Cloistered Cleric that has the Healing domain, the free knowledge domain, and some other domain with a bunch of useful spells that you feel you will use frequently (I use Protection for the Mind Blank spell, but YMMV). You can trade out for Knowledge Devotion, if you like. You can also switch out the Protection domain for the Travel domain and get a bunch of actions with Travel Devotion.

Then combine this with Warlock and Eldritch Disciple. Not only Healing Blast, but also Protective Aura is good. Circle of Protection against Evil for a turn attempt? Sign me up! But the fun part is the Eldritch Spellweave ability. Consider Glaiving the aforementioned Healing Blast and healing allies with a weapon of pure positive energy.

Healing Blast is good, but not for 'infinite healing'. It's good because it is ranged healing. Ever been half way across the battlefield when someone almost goes down? Yea, here's your answer to that.

Make sure to take the neck-slot item that increases your EB by 2d6, and if you want, pick up a Warlock's Rod, which can dramatically increase your EB output for a round, at the cost of charges.

It gets even better...

Pick up Fell Flight and either Walk Unseen or Retributive Invisibility. You're the healer. That is hard to lock down and hit. Follow up with Flee The Scene for making it even MORE difficult to lock you up (since you can DimDoor without somatic components, which means you can do it in a grapple).

Finally, for when you DO get cheezed off at something, Utterdark Blast + Chain Blast = 2 negative levels on all opponents. Or, if you just want to get sick and nasty, Utterdark Blast + Eldritch Glaive + Divine Power = Dead Opponent.

Keld Denar
2009-04-05, 08:52 PM
Pick up Fell Flight and either Walk Unseen or Retributive Invisibility. You're the healer. That is hard to lock down and hit. Follow up with Flee The Scene for making it even MORE difficult to lock you up (since you can DimDoor without somatic components, which means you can do it in a grapple).

Nit pick...ALL spells from the Teleport Subschool are Verbal only. Warlocks SLAs that emulate spells of the Teleport Subschool are Verbal only. Regardless, casting or using a SLA in a grapple requires a Concentration check, even if that spell has no components.

So, if you are a Warlock or a Sorcerer or a Horizon Walker trying to use a Dim Door like spell or SLA, it won't ever have Somantic or Material components, but still requires a Concentration check to use in a grapple.

Most people forget those 2 things. There is no reason to memorize a Stilled Dim Door, a Stilled Teleport, or a Stilled Benign Transposition. And you always have to make a Concentration check to use a spell or SLA in a grapple, even if it doesn't have components or is a Swift/Quickened spell.

Myrmex
2009-04-05, 09:04 PM
Pick up martial study at some level for one of the shadow jaunts (standard, move or swift). Problem solved.

olentu
2009-04-05, 10:59 PM
I have a vague recollection that the rules compendium may not allow using a SLA or most maneuvers while grappling but I can not recall for sure. I also seem to remember that for the warlock all their SLAs have somatic components.

In any case if you are the correct type of divine caster freedom of movement is available so that might be a good choice to avoid grapples if they are a problem.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-05, 11:15 PM
Nit pick...ALL spells from the Teleport Subschool are Verbal only. Warlocks SLAs that emulate spells of the Teleport Subschool are Verbal only. Regardless, casting or using a SLA in a grapple requires a Concentration check, even if that spell has no components.

So, if you are a Warlock or a Sorcerer or a Horizon Walker trying to use a Dim Door like spell or SLA, it won't ever have Somantic or Material components, but still requires a Concentration check to use in a grapple.

Most people forget those 2 things. There is no reason to memorize a Stilled Dim Door, a Stilled Teleport, or a Stilled Benign Transposition. And you always have to make a Concentration check to use a spell or SLA in a grapple, even if it doesn't have components or is a Swift/Quickened spell.

So you SLA on the defensive. If you keep Concentration capped, you can almost never fail the check. Big whoppin' deal. You can still DimDoor out of a bad situation by rolling 15+spell level. The DC for doing so in a grapple is a flat 20, which is laughable. I can reliably hit that with a 1st level character. By 10th level, you should never be able to fail at this.

Book Wyrm
2009-04-06, 01:49 AM
The Hellfire Warlock PrC drastically ups you Eldritch Blast by 6d6 in only 3 levels with the Hellfire Blast ability. By the RAW Hellfire Blast isn't an essence invocation, so you could theoretically combine it with Healing Blast from Eldritch Disciple. Pick up the strongheart vest soulmeld that negates the Con damage and some Nightsticks to fuel your Healing Blasts. Cleric 3/Warlock 2/Eldritch Disciple 6/Hellfire Warlock 3/Eldritch Disciple 4/Warlock 2 would net you a 14d6 healing blast every round at 60 ft. Add in a Warlocks rod and that other item that ups eldritch blast and your set. Unfortunately you have no way to heal ability damage, status afflictions, or bring people back to life.

Keld Denar
2009-04-06, 12:26 PM
So you SLA on the defensive. If you keep Concentration capped, you can almost never fail the check. Big whoppin' deal. You can still DimDoor out of a bad situation by rolling 15+spell level. The DC for doing so in a grapple is a flat 20, which is laughable. I can reliably hit that with a 1st level character. By 10th level, you should never be able to fail at this.

Close, but a little wrong. First of all, defensive casting never comes into play. Defensive casting is only to prevent the provocation of AoOs while threatened. Grappling creatures do not threaten, even each other, unless one of them takes a voluntary -20 penalty to be considered not grappling.



Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You donít have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

So...Dim Door is a 4th level spell DC24, and the earliest achieveable level is 7. Assuming max ranks, you have about a +14 (10 ranks, +2 Con score, +2 masterwork competance tool). Thats sucess on a 10 or higher, or a 45% success rate. I'm not willing to gamble on that. Bumping up higher to level 10, we now have 13 ranks, and maybe a +2 con item, bringing the total to +18. Better, but still a 25% chance of failure. There is also the potential for a +5 competance magic item like a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting, but doesn't stack with a tool since they are both competance bonuses. Thus, you'll probably have a +21 to +22 at level 10, depending on your Con. Still a 10 or so percent chance of failure. Nearly failproof, but not completely.

Just sayin...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-06, 02:04 PM
Close, but a little wrong. First of all, defensive casting never comes into play. Defensive casting is only to prevent the provocation of AoOs while threatened. Grappling creatures do not threaten, even each other, unless one of them takes a voluntary -20 penalty to be considered not grappling.



So...Dim Door is a 4th level spell DC24, and the earliest achieveable level is 7. Assuming max ranks, you have about a +14 (10 ranks, +2 Con score, +2 masterwork competance tool). Thats sucess on a 10 or higher, or a 45% success rate. I'm not willing to gamble on that. Bumping up higher to level 10, we now have 13 ranks, and maybe a +2 con item, bringing the total to +18. Better, but still a 25% chance of failure. And since this isn't casting defensively, Combat Casting won't help. Skill Focus: Concentration will, but who actually takes that? I've seen it suggested, but have never seen it in a build. There is also the potential for a +5 competance magic item like a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting, but doesn't stack with a tool since they are both competance bonuses. Thus, you'll probably have a +21 to +22 at level 10, depending on your Con. Still a 10 or so percent chance of failure. Nearly failproof, but not completely.

Just sayin...

Close...
We look at the chart for the skill here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm).

There's that handy little footnote that says:


If you are trying to cast, concentrate on, or direct a spell when the distraction occurs, add the level of the spell to the indicated DC.

But I'm not trying to cast, concentrate on, or direct a spell. I'm using a SLA, which is not the same thing. So while I *DO* have to make a Concentration check while in a grapple, due to the specific wording which includes it


Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldnít normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.

However, no where does it say I have to increase the DC by the spell level for a SLA. In fact, given the inclusive nature of the language of the second quoted paragraph, that a lack of inclusion in the former quoted paragraph indicates that one is NOT necessary for a SLA.

Keld Denar
2009-04-06, 02:42 PM
Wow, so the rules in Grapple DIRECTLY contradict the rules in Concentration. That is interesting. That quote I quoted above? I found it here. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling

This quote might be relevant:


A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

So, it takes the same casting time as a spell, check. It can not be counterspelled, check. It can not be used to counterspell, check. Its a mental action with no VSM components (from the paragraph right before it), check. In all other ways, its a spell.

As a spell, it requires concentration. So...do you use the rules under Concentration (DC20), or do you use the rules under Grappling (DC20 + SL)?

Odd

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-06, 03:10 PM
Wow, so the rules in Grapple DIRECTLY contradict the rules in Concentration. That is interesting. That quote I quoted above? I found it here. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling

This quote might be relevant:


So, it takes the same casting time as a spell, check. It can not be counterspelled, check. It can not be used to counterspell, check. Its a mental action with no VSM components (from the paragraph right before it), check. In all other ways, its a spell.

As a spell, it requires concentration. So...do you use the rules under Concentration (DC20), or do you use the rules under Grappling (DC20 + SL)?

Odd

Grapple rules also only mention spells, not SLA's.


Cast a Spell

You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You donít have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Again, it only mentions spells. In fact, it doesn't mention SLA's at all.

Also, the passage you quoted concerning 'treating SLA as a spell in all other ways' ends in a colon, and is followed by the following paragraph:


Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

So it is talking about provoking AoO, being disrupted, subject to SR, and being dispelled. Nothing about grappling either.

I suppose this will have to be a GM's call, because both interpretations are equally valid.

Of course, a magic item with a +5/+10 to Concentration makes the whole point moot, but that's getting into the realm of Magic Item Creation Abuse, and not the sort of cheeze which I would like to realistically base any assumption off of in any situation which the suggestion is actually intended to be used in a real game.

monty
2009-04-06, 03:28 PM
Do SLAs even have a spell level? Seems like it'd be hard to add something that doesn't exist.

Chronos
2009-04-06, 07:25 PM
Do SLAs even have a spell level? Seems like it'd be hard to add something that doesn't exist.Generally, they'll have the same level as the equivalent spell, or a level (or equivalent spell) will be given if it's not identical. This is also necessary for determining the saving throw, if any, of an SLA.

Keld Denar
2009-04-06, 07:26 PM
Do SLAs even have a spell level? Seems like it'd be hard to add something that doesn't exist.

Yea. SLAs are always derived from wiz/sorc spells, unless proven otherwise. Check out this quote (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities):


Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monsterís spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

So, a Horizon Walker with the Shifting Terrain Mastery would be using Dim Door as a SLA and if someone attempted to disrupt him, he would have to make a concentration check based on the fact that its a 4th level spell.

If it doesn't copy a spell, then it isn't a SLA, its a SU. Most SUs don't provoke though, so its kinda a moot point.

And Shneekey, you don't even have to delve into the grim world of custom magic item creation. MIC has the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting with a +5 bonus for 2500g, and the Third Eye: Concentrate for a +10 bonus for 10,000g. They do follow the formula set out in the DMG perfectly though (bonus^2 *100g).

Dixieboy
2009-04-06, 08:06 PM
Anyone suggested going for apostle of peace? :smallconfused:

Seems pretty good to me, except for the whole. "Can't fight" thing.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-06, 08:12 PM
Anyone suggested going for apostle of peace? :smallconfused:

Seems pretty good to me, except for the whole. "Can't fight" thing.
The caster level and spells per day don't really cut it for a serious healer. Otherwise it's useful. Might go well with a Sorcerer/Apostle of Peace/Mystic Theurge, I suppose, using an arcane trick to heal.

sonofzeal
2009-04-06, 09:00 PM
The caster level and spells per day don't really cut it for a serious healer. Otherwise it's useful. Might go well with a Sorcerer/Apostle of Peace/Mystic Theurge, I suppose, using an arcane trick to heal.
There's also the rampantly self-contradictory text on material possessions. If you're going to play one, I'd remove "Vow of Poverty" from the list. Vow of Peace is actually pretty good though, depending on the campaign. Note that the +4 DC from Vow of Nonviolence applies to the Vow of Peace abilities.

Chronos
2009-04-07, 12:22 AM
Vow of Peace is actually pretty good though, depending on the campaign.You definitely want to check with the other players, though. Some folks really won't like not being allowed to kill things, while others won't have a problem with it.

sonofzeal
2009-04-07, 12:56 AM
You definitely want to check with the other players, though. Some folks really won't like not being allowed to kill things, while others won't have a problem with it.
The feat itself doesn't actually work that way (though it's a small jump, and certainly within the RP suggested by it). Unlike the Paladin oaths which can make you Fall if you even associate with evil creatures, Vow of Peace isn't broken unless you, personally, willingly cause lethal damage, ability score damage, or use a death effect, on a living creature. You can still deal nonlethal damage, you can still inflict all sorts of debuffs, and your allies can still kill. There's a minor penalty your allies can take, if they willingly kill a surrendered or helpless opponent and are within a certain distance from you, but dropping an enemy straight to "dead" with a solid hit is not penalized at all. Now, some campaigns are such that enemies will be incapacitated but alive fairly often, and will be a significant liability if left alive... but honestly, I haven't yet played in any like that.

So yeah. A VoPeace character can run around with a party of CE Blastificers and Warmages and Necromancers without causing too much of a rules-wise issue. RPing it might be awkward, but the vow itself is honestly not so bad.

monty
2009-04-07, 01:05 AM
No, Vow of Peace also says that you can't help kill anything. That means you can't take offensive action of any kind against anything your party fights. Taking it further, you could argue this to mean you can't even buff or heal your allies during combat, since that's still technically helping them kill something.

dspeyer
2009-04-07, 01:14 AM
Horliman Whitestar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75327#post4075709)

Why is he the ultimate healer? Because after him, there won't be any more.

sonofzeal
2009-04-07, 01:48 AM
No, Vow of Peace also says that you can't help kill anything. That means you can't take offensive action of any kind against anything your party fights. Taking it further, you could argue this to mean you can't even buff or heal your allies during combat, since that's still technically helping them kill something.
That's an unnecessarily strict reading of the rules in question (buffing teammates is helping them not die, debuffing enemies is also helping allies not die, and SoL is helping the enemy not die). And the fact that nonlethal damage is given the green light implies that isn't the reading the writers had in mind. If your DM goes down that road, fine, but it's by no means RAI or even RAW.

monty
2009-04-07, 01:55 AM
That's an unnecessarily strict reading of the rules in question (buffing teammates is helping them not die, debuffing enemies is also helping allies not die, and SoL is helping the enemy not die). And the fact that nonlethal damage is given the green light implies that isn't the reading the writers had in mind. If your DM goes down that road, fine, but it's by no means RAI or even RAW.

Only if they don't kill the enemy. If you look at the post you originally quoted, it says "Some folks really won't like not being allowed to kill things" (emphasis mine). If your friends like capturing everything they run across, then go ahead, but as soon as they try to actually kill something, you better be careful.

Fixer
2009-04-07, 07:56 AM
If a VoP character deals enough subdual damage, the opponent with the subdual damage will drop from the combination of subdual and real damage prior to dying. That only leaves the after-battle problem of what to do with survivors, which is a role-playing matter, not a tactical one. If your party hates RP, then this character REALLY shouldn't be in it as all the exalted feats require real RP.

So, the VoP character can be very insistent about not killing helpless creatures, but can still participate in combats to protect their comrades on the promise that surviving opponents will not be murdered, but dealt with in some other fashion (circumstances depending) that prevents them from being threatening. With VoP, a simple promise from the surviving opponents can suffice, as the protection from the VoP character is canceled if those opponents attack while under their promise. (IIRC)

Berserk Monk
2009-04-07, 03:15 PM
Radiant Servant of Pelor:

All healing spells treated as Empowered and Maximized by level 10 without using up a higher spell slot.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-07, 03:28 PM
Radiant Servant of Pelor:

All healing spells treated as Empowered and Maximized by level 10 without using up a higher spell slot.

Both of which made completely obsolete by the Heal spell, which cannot have either applied to it, cures more than any Cure x Wounds spell even if they ARE maxed and empowered, and also fixes most common status ailments.

sonofzeal
2009-04-07, 08:17 PM
Only if they don't kill the enemy. If you look at the post you originally quoted, it says "Some folks really won't like not being allowed to kill things" (emphasis mine). If your friends like capturing everything they run across, then go ahead, but as soon as they try to actually kill something, you better be careful.
They can actually kill things. Absolutely nothing in the feat gives any sort of penalty to anything whatsoever if the mage next to you casts fireball on a bunch of goblins and kills 20 of them. You are not responsible for his actions, or the actions of anyone else on your team except yourself. You may be breaking your vow if you tell him to fireball those goblins, or otherwise encourage such actions. But absolutely nothing in the text in question says you need to prevent him from doing so, or even discourage him from doing it again. Playing a VoPeace character in a bloodthirsty party is all about an attitude of studied neutrality, but that's really not that hard a line to walk. Again, the only time it comes up is when the enemy is rendered helpless or surrenders before it dies, and even then the text explicitly states that your allies can kill it anyway if they want to without any lasting harm.

Paramour Pink
2009-04-07, 08:36 PM
Wait. Someone has actually read the Exalted feats section, and isn't just repeating the same ridiculously strict interpretation of Vow of Peace they heard someone else say...? Wow. :smallsmile:

Chronos
2009-04-07, 09:55 PM
The point remains, there are at least some circumstances where the other party members will be at least somewhat disincentivized from killing, and that's enough of a restriction that some players will find it odious. And even aside from the mechanics of it, the role-playing could also cause a problem, since the character with the exalted feat is likely to end up lecturing the others whenever an enemy ends up dead unnecessarily.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-07, 09:58 PM
Both of which made completely obsolete by the Heal spell, which cannot have either applied to it, cures more than any Cure x Wounds spell even if they ARE maxed and empowered, and also fixes most common status ailments.

And when you run out of Heal spells for the day and are in a very dire situation...? Honestly, Radiant Servant of Pelor is like being a cleric (you continue to gain spell levels and count the levels from the prestige class to turning undead at the same rate) except you get like a crap load of awesome abilities.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-07, 10:07 PM
And when you run out of Heal spells for the day and are in a very dire situation...? Honestly, Radiant Servant of Pelor is like being a cleric (you continue to gain spell levels and count the levels from the prestige class to turning undead at the same rate) except you get like a crap load of awesome abilities.

Correction, you get like a crapload of mostly flavor abilities that have little to no actual use. The best part about it is the free domain at 5th level, but since you have to get a worthless domain (Sun) to qualify for the PrC, that hardly balances out.

Lesser Vigor is in every way superior to any of the Cure spells for over-time healing, and Heal is superior for OMGWTFBBQ situations. If you are running into that many OMGWTFBBQ situations that you are running out of Heal spells, then tell the wizard to pop a Teleport and get the party out of the rathole it's in.

sonofzeal
2009-04-07, 10:28 PM
The point remains, there are at least some circumstances where the other party members will be at least somewhat disincentivized from killing, and that's enough of a restriction that some players will find it odious. And even aside from the mechanics of it, the role-playing could also cause a problem, since the character with the exalted feat is likely to end up lecturing the others whenever an enemy ends up dead unnecessarily.
Emphasis mine. Really, you're quibbling here. To phrase it otherwise: in some groups, there will occasionally be minor inconveniences if a VoPeace character is in the party. They'll either have to {a} make sure the person dies without going through "helpless", {b} incapacitate them then send someone back to finish the job later, {c} bite the -1 to attack rolls (oh woe!), or {d} tie the poor sap to a tree and hope animals get him, or {e} turn him in to proper authorities, depending on the location. That's hardly a game-destroying ultimatum.

There's worse and more common inconveniences associated with having a Dwarf in Full Plate and Tower Shield in the party, namely the utter inability to sneak around. Is that "odious"? Well, kinda. I mean, anyone who's played a sneak and had to travel with someone getting negative Move Silently checks has probably ground their teeth in frustration at least once.

What if someone wants to play an orc and it'll cause difficulty in towns and cities? What if someone wants to play a Necromancer, in a setting where undead are frowned upon? What if someone wants to play an Heir of Siberys in an Eberron Campaign? There's all sorts of builds that are inappropriate in certain contexts and with certain groups. I'll admit that VoPeace is one of them. But that's hardly the end of the story; there's all sorts of situations in which all of the above are perfectly viable and can integrate naturally into an existing group. And hey, running it by the other players and the DM isn't a bad idea. But it's really not that big a deal in most neutral-to-good heroic groups.


As to roleplay, well, yeah, you can roleplay it that way and be an utter jerk about it. You can also do the same with just about any other characters with strong opinions on any subject. Nothing in the feat itself requires you to be a jerkass about it - unlike the Paladin who is contractually forced to cause a major scene if he finds out a party member is evil. If your problem is that VoPeace characters sometimes lecture inappropriately, then your problem is with the players, not the feat.

monty
2009-04-08, 12:53 AM
stuff that doesn't actually contradict what I said

Did you even read the previous post I made?


No, Vow of Peace also says that you can't help kill anything. That means you can't take offensive action of any kind against anything your party fights. Taking it further, you could argue this to mean you can't even buff or heal your allies during combat, since that's still technically helping them kill something.

I never said the party couldn't kill things. I said they can't kill things if you help them, which could arguably be extended to buffing. If you follow this path, then you are essentially nothing but a healbot, which although technically goes with what the OP asked for, is a really ineffective character.

Chronos
2009-04-08, 11:54 PM
OK, so I finally got fed up enough with the divine-caster near-monopoly on healing to homebrew up something (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108961).

sonofzeal
2009-04-09, 01:16 AM
I never said the party couldn't kill things. I said they can't kill things if you help them, which could arguably be extended to buffing. If you follow this path, then you are essentially nothing but a healbot, which although technically goes with what the OP asked for, is a really ineffective character.
Since you're ever so convinced, perhaps you could quote me the line where it says that. I've got BoED open right in front of me, page 48, all the text on Vow of Peace, and I honestly cannot see what you're talking about. The closest is that one line about not incapacitating enemies so that others can kill them. "If you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner" and all that jazz. But none of that kicks in unless you, specifically, are the one that incapacitates the enemy. The VoPeace Cleric who casts Heal on the Evoker isn't the one who incapacitates the enemy; the VoPeace Druid who casts Bull's Strength on the Fighter isn't the one who incapacitates the enemy; the VoPeace Illusionist who casts Hallucinatory Terrain isn't the one who incapacitates the enemy. Absolutely nothing in the rest of the text that I can see even comes close to your interpretation. Please, if it's in there, point it out to me. Give me a line number if you're worried about the TOS. Otherwise, accept it as a houserule and move on.