[3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

[DragoonWraith]

So, I've never played D&D, just spent far more time than I should have reading the SRD.

Some friends have a game just started (they've played one game day's worth) that I have the option of joining, if I like. The game is played Core only; really just using d20SRD since most of the players have long-ago lost most of their books and the DM has the most experience with Core. The scenario is homebrewed, sandbox style.

There's a Gnome Druid (just acquired a Wolf companion), a Drow Fighter (at level 1; everyone else is level 3), a Halfling Fighter (who is insane), and a Human Rogue. The Drow Fighter has bow specialization and is planning to get some Wizard and then go Arcane Archer, but other than that the Druid is the only magic in the group.

They are a group of Evil PCs, played as simply having no regard for others beyond what they can get out of them (so reasonably loyal to each other, insofar as they are dependent on each other, but uncaring about the life or property of others). They started by being released from prison, the Druid went and found a Wolf, the others equipped themselves in the market and went looking for people to rob. At a brothel where the Rogue was looking to pick up lockpicks, the Halfling (Fighter...) attempted to pick-pocket a rich fat dude. That ended in an explosion of gold coins, a fight with three guards that very nearly killed the Halfling, and then rousing a female Half-Orc Paladin who had been sitting in the brothel (?!), from whom they fled.

Anyway, I'm interested in joining, and would like to do something magic-related. Since I've read TLN's Batman guide, I'm favoring Wizard - just because I know more about them than the other classes. Arcane sounds cooler than Divine, plus they've already got the Druid, but I don't really know. Information on how the different magic-based classes play (especially guides or thoughts on playing them) would be great, because there's a lot you can't get from just reading the stats.

As for PrC, initially I was considering Mystic Theurge, but a bit of reading indicated that A. Divine Spells aren't as good as Arcane (usually), and thus accessing the opposite spell list isn't great, and B. losing three Caster Levels is unacceptable. My thoughts were to be something like "I have lots of spell slots, but weaker spells - Quicken lots and lots of things" - but choosing an underpowered class with even more forethought necessary seems like a poor choice for a newb. Plus the lower CLs means I don't have that many extra spell slots (which was disappointing to learn).

So now I'm considering Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage, where I'd get Wizard enough to access Loremaster, get a few Archmage levels interspersed in the Loremaster, finishing up probably Wiz5/Lore10/Arch5 (though maybe not Arch5, get extra Wiz or something), but TLN's guide mentioned something with Wizard/Rogue/Archmage/Arcane Trickster, which sounds really cool. I like the idea of something little different from just straight-up mage. He didn't go into a lot of detail on it though.

But then there's Cleric, Druid, Bard, and Sorcerer, about which I know very little (beyond their stats, which are difficult to turn into understanding). There's already a Druid in the group, so I probably wouldn't take that. Information (and especially guides!) on the others would be awesome.

Oh, and I'm also interested in Crafting. The Drow's already crafting bows for himself and the Rogue, and brewing potions for himself ("Drow sleepyjuice" he calls it), but I was thinking Wondrous Item and Rod, maybe Wand. But it's difficult to get a feel for how much I'll be able to actually get crafting done, and how worth it is to get those.

[Keld Denar]

Well, your build idea won't work. Loremaster isn't enterable until after level 7 due to skill point requirements.

More info would be great. What books does your group have available? Divine Oracle is a really good class for a wizard to take before entering Loremaster, and it gives you an ability that is nearly identical to Evasion, and access to a bunch of neato Divination spells.

If you have Complete Mage, I'd highly suggest something more like this:

Focused Specialist Conjourer (banning Enchantment, Evocation, and Abjuration), and focusing on utilizing cloud spells, debuff spells, and various teleport spells to influence the battle. At level 3, you would probably look like this:

Human
Focused Specialist Conjourer1 Extend Spell, Sculpt Spell, Scribe Scroll
Conjourer2
Conjourer3 Metamagic School Focus (Conjouration)

And your spells, assuming an 18 starting int would be

1st
*Sculpted Grease (using MMSF)
*Mage Armor
*Benign Transpostion (in Spell Compendium)
Ray of Enfeeblement
Color Spray

2nd
* Scupted Glitterdust (using MMSF)
* Sculpted Glitterdust (again, MMSF)
* Web
Invisibility

With the * spells being required Conjourations due to Focused Specialist.

The key is to try not to use very many spells per combat. 1-2 should be enough to cripple your foes badly enough that your party can kill them easily. Especially Sculpted Glitterdust. That'll be a killer. This low level build will really make you effective in the party, although your friends will all think they are doing all the work (this is the Batman style of play). Glitterdust is AMAZING, since its a multitarget Blindness, and blinding a foe is almost like casting Greater Invisibility on your whole party. Thats awesome.

Don't go Mystic Theurge. You touched on all the reasons its bad. The worst is the 3 level loss. Thats just inexcusable for any class that claims to be a "primary caster".

[DragoonWraith]

Well, your build idea won't work. Loremaster isn't enterable until after level 7 due to skill point requirements.
Ah, ok, then I could do Wizard 7 / Loremaster 10 / Archmage 3 (though would probably more like Wizard 7 / Loremaster 5 / Archmage 3 / Loremaster 5). Arcane Reach, Arcane Power, and Mastery of Shaping would be fine. I probably would have gotten the SLA High Arcana if possible, but I think that's fine.

Still, I was primarily interested in information on the base classes. Sorry if that was unclear. Especially Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer.


More info would be great. What books does your group have available?
The SRD, and that's about it. I might be able to convince the DM to allow other things, but he'd rather not. He wants to keep things simple and also wants to have all of the information easily looked up on the website. This is largely for the benefit of the group, some of whom haven't played D&D in a while (and me, who hasn't at all). Just less stuff to keep track of.


The key is to try not to use very many spells per combat. 1-2 should be enough to cripple your foes badly enough that your party can kill them easily. Especially Sculpted Glitterdust. That'll be a killer. This low level build will really make you effective in the party, although your friends will all think they are doing all the work (this is the Batman style of play). Glitterdust is AMAZING, since its a multitarget Blindness, and blinding a foe is almost like casting Greater Invisibility on your whole party. Thats awesome.
Yup, had noted Glitterdust as one of the better spells. TLN mentioned that.

But if you only use 1-2 spells, what should you do on the rest of your turns?


Don't go Mystic Theurge. You touched on all the reasons its bad. The worst is the 3 level loss. Thats just inexcusable for any class that claims to be a "primary caster".
Yup, figured that out. Without the 3 level loss it'd be pretty awesome, obviously, heh, being able to be a Cleric or Druid and a Wizard or Sorcerer. *shrug*

[sonofzeal]

But then there's Cleric, Druid, Bard, and Sorcerer, about which I know very little (beyond their stats, which are difficult to turn into understanding). There's already a Druid in the group, so I probably wouldn't take that. Information (and especially guides!) on the others would be awesome.
Druid - powerful, very powerful, mostly due to Wildshape. A Druid with access to the right gear can out-fight just about any Fighter... AND cast top-level spells.

Cleric - similar deal to the Druid, except with Personal-only buffs (Divine Power, Righteous Might) instead of Wildshape. Gets "Turn Undead", which is not so useful for its intended purpose, but with the right feats you can spent it on awesome things (like free metamagic!)

Bard - jack of all trades, as-written sucks at about all of them. Except lying; bards are the best liars in Core D&D, rivaled only by Beguilers from PHB2 out of core. They can be turned into awesome powerhouses, but it takes a lot of effort. Definitely not newb-friendly.

Sorcerer - more spells per day, but much less flexibility, as compared to a Wizard. Loses out overall, but are good for those who dislike the bookkeeping of Wizard spellcasting. Honestly not a bad choice for a newb spellcaster, as long as you pick a good set of spells (hint: you'll want something targeting each of Fort, Ref, Will, touch AC, as well as at least one flexible illusion, summoning, and buff spell).



Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage is a good idea. Specializing is also a good idea, since spells-per-day are so valuable. Pick what spells you want (remember that you get 2/level, plus more for money), find what schools have the least, and ban those.


That help?

[Ernir]

Ohi. Sure, you can join. :smallbiggrin:

If you are new, and want to play an Arcane Caster with a bajillion spell slots - I say Sorcerer is definitely the way to go. It lacks the bookkeeping mess that comes with "prepared" casters, and can spam more spells than anyone else (in the PHB, anyway).

The Wizard is widely regarded to be the more potentially powerful class of the two, yes.
It is just that it is also the one that is easier to screw up and more difficult to bring to its peak potential, I'd say. =/

(I have an Evoker in my flesh-and-blood group. You have read TLN's guide, so 'nuff said.)

But of course, if you want to play a bookwormy master-of-the-universe caster, screw my advice and play a goddamn Batman Wizard. You seem interested in it and you do have a nice plan for it. :smalltongue:

As for that:

Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage is a good idea. Specializing is also a good idea, since spells-per-day are so valuable. Pick what spells you want (remember that you get 2/level, plus more for money), find what schools have the least, and ban those.

Consider this signed.


What books does your group have available?

(Chimes in, his DM here)

Just the SRD, so far. The group has the problem of being scattered across the globe AND across the entire 3.5 experience curve. Since the most experienced player seems to be content with it, I decided to limit this to stuff we can link and show to one another.

So far this means that I can't scare them with Mindbenders or rip them to pieces with Frenzied Berserkers either, but that is the price I paid to keep everyone in the loop. =/

Stumbled across this guide to free D&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=00e335f1b6d3a915c0205de27cc583 43&topic=1109.0) a few days ago, though, was always about to share it...

[Rhiannon87]

Okay, as far as the base classes go:

Cleric: Full spell casting progression. If you're playing an evil cleric, you will be able to convert any of your non-domain prepared spells into inflict wounds spells, which means you touch an enemy and they take Xd8 worth of damage. You'll probably be expected to be the party healer, which means you'll have to memorize healing spells. Clerics have decent hit points and can wear heavy armor, which means in theory they can enter into combat, and get some pretty cool spells. Take a look at the cleric spell lists for more info. Plus, they get domains, which grant them extra abilities and allow them to take one domain spell for each spell level; domain spells often come off the arcane casting list, so you can have a cleric who might know teleport or something like that.

Sorcerer: Very similar to the wizard. Instead of having access to whatever spells are in your spellbook (and having the ability to add more spells to your spellbook as you go), a sorcerer knows a fixed list of spells that they can cast a higher number of times per day. For example: a first level wizard might have five first level spells in his spellbook. He memorizes three of them for that day, and once those are cast, he's done. A sorcerer only knows two first level spells, but he can cast those spells five times a day. (These numbers are pulled completely out of the clear blue sky, they're not really accurate). Sorcerers are based on Charisma rather than Intelligence, and get a slightly different set of skills, iirc.

Druid: Full spell progression, decent hit points, and the ability to turn into animals. They have a decent selection of divine spells, and their wild shape ability makes them pretty useful in combat.

The party you've described is lacking in both a primary healer AND a primary arcane caster, which is a problem. Basically, you need to decide if you want to be able to provide healing for the party (if you don't, you're all going to be spending cash on potions/scrolls/wands), or if you want the incredible piles of useful spells that an arcane caster can bring. I'd suggest going with the wizard-- you seem more interested in it at this point, and you've got a couple divine-ish casters already.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

They do have a Healer, the Druid. Vigor makes him better than the Cleric at that.

@The OP:My favorite caster for simplicity, usefulness, and fun is the Beguiler. You literally can't make bad decisions while building them, just put everything into Int and you're good. It's non-core, but one of the group might have access. Spontaneous casting from a pre-chosen list with very good spells on it, light armor, and 6+Int skills give you a lot more options than a standard Sorcerer and it's a lot easier than picking up a Wizard for the first time. Pretty much, it's Arcane Trickster out of the box.

[lsfreak]

But if you only use 1-2 spells, what should you do on the rest of your turns?

Whatever you want, really; if you've already won the encounter, no point in wasting spell slots or gold (scrolls, wands, whatever), unless you *know* you won't need them. If you need more spells to win, by all means use them.

After all the enemies are minimal threats, I usually get out the xbow/bow at that point and doing my awesome 1d6 points of damage, making sure I'm in a position where I can cast more spells if needed, without being in range of pointy things or in an area where reinforcements are likely to come from.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Whatever you want, really; if you've already won the encounter, no point in wasting spell slots or gold (scrolls, wands, whatever), unless you *know* you won't need them. If you need more spells to win, by all means use them.I bought a tea service for my Malconvoker once, so that I could drink tea during combat while my demonic hordes tore apart the souls of my enemies.

I liked that character. :smallbiggrin:

[Xuincherguixe]

As much fun as wizards can be, if your party is lacking a divine type it might be better to go Druid.

While a wizard can certainly end encounters if done right, if you're just shy of right, the team could end up getting roasted.

Druids get a bit of destruction type spells. And while not nearly as fun as breathing deadly gases and exploding peoples heads, it sounds like you the group needs good support magic.

[DragoonWraith]

Druid - powerful, very powerful, mostly due to Wildshape. A Druid with access to the right gear can out-fight just about any Fighter... AND cast top-level spells.

Cleric - similar deal to the Druid, except with Personal-only buffs (Divine Power, Righteous Might) instead of Wildshape. Gets "Turn Undead", which is not so useful for its intended purpose, but with the right feats you can spent it on awesome things (like free metamagic!)

Bard - jack of all trades, as-written sucks at about all of them. Except lying; bards are the best liars in Core D&D, rivaled only by Beguilers from PHB2 out of core. They can be turned into awesome powerhouses, but it takes a lot of effort. Definitely not newb-friendly.
Hmm... None of those sound up my alley, really. Thanks!


Sorcerer - more spells per day, but much less flexibility, as compared to a Wizard. Loses out overall, but are good for those who dislike the bookkeeping of Wizard spellcasting. Honestly not a bad choice for a newb spellcaster, as long as you pick a good set of spells (hint: you'll want something targeting each of Fort, Ref, Will, touch AC, as well as at least one flexible illusion, summoning, and buff spell).
Yeah, tough call. Things to like about both, from my perspective.


Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage is a good idea. Specializing is also a good idea, since spells-per-day are so valuable. Pick what spells you want (remember that you get 2/level, plus more for money), find what schools have the least, and ban those.
That sounds like a solid plan. Would Sorcerer/Lore/Arch be substantially different (beyond the normal differences between Wizard and Sorcerer), if I decided to do that?


That help?
Certainly does!


Ohi. Sure, you can join. :smallbiggrin:
:sheepish: Heh, hi Ernir. Thanks.


If you are new, and want to play an Arcane Caster with a bajillion spell slots - I say Sorcerer is definitely the way to go. It lacks the bookkeeping mess that comes with "prepared" casters, and can spam more spells than anyone else (in the PHB, anyway).

The Wizard is widely regarded to be the more potentially powerful class of the two, yes.
It is just that it is also the one that is easier to screw up and more difficult to bring to its peak potential, I'd say. =/

(I have an Evoker in my flesh-and-blood group. You have read TLN's guide, so 'nuff said.)

But of course, if you want to play a bookwormy master-of-the-universe caster, screw my advice and play a goddamn Batman Wizard. You seem interested in it and you do have a nice plan for it. :smalltongue:
So the Sorcerer sounds good but then so does the Wizard. Ah! Hard to say. I see the Sorcerer as more flexible per day (cast any known spell), but perhaps less forgiving to big mistakes later (since it's more difficult to learn new spells)? I'm a bit overwhelmed by the spell list; picking out favorite spells is easier said than done.


Stumbled across this guide to free D&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=00e335f1b6d3a915c0205de27cc583 43&topic=1109.0) a few days ago, though, was always about to share it...
That's awesome! Cool, thanks. The Archivist is about the only one that really interests me... but he just seems like a Divine Wizard, I think I'd rather just go Arcane. But I've heard reference to the Archivist as potentially even more powerful - how so?


My favorite caster for simplicity, usefulness, and fun is the Beguiler. You literally can't make bad decisions while building them, just put everything into Int and you're good. It's non-core, but one of the group might have access. Spontaneous casting from a pre-chosen list with very good spells on it, light armor, and 6+Int skills give you a lot more options than a standard Sorcerer and it's a lot easier than picking up a Wizard for the first time. Pretty much, it's Arcane Trickster out of the box.
Sounds awesome; I don't have... whatever book it's from. Not available freely, either, as far as I can tell. Thanks for the advice though.


Whatever you want, really; if you've already won the encounter, no point in wasting spell slots or gold (scrolls, wands, whatever), unless you *know* you won't need them. If you need more spells to win, by all means use them.

After all the enemies are minimal threats, I usually get out the xbow/bow at that point and doing my awesome 1d6 points of damage, making sure I'm in a position where I can cast more spells if needed, without being in range of pointy things or in an area where reinforcements are likely to come from.
I bought a tea service for my Malconvoker once, so that I could drink tea during combat while my demonic hordes tore apart the souls of my enemies.

I liked that character. :smallbiggrin:
Haha!

OK, now what if I wanted to do more of a summoner type character? I'm not certain I do - just curious. TLN implies that there are better choices than Wizard for that, and regardless it's not Batman anyway.

[Keld Denar]

Beguiler is in the PHBII, a neato little book. Also contains the Duskblade, a martial caster who hits things with spells. Fun fun!

If you really want to summon, check out the Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel. Its all about being a good guy, then summoning evil things and tricking them into fighting other evil things for you. Very powerful and very flavorful. Wizard is a great base for it, especially if you are a Conjourer. There is a Conjourer Alt Class Feature in UA (and consequently on www.d20srd.org) that allows you to trade away your familar for the ability to cast summon spells as a standard action instead of a full round action. This is really good for summoning. Other than that, bind a big demon, buff it to hell, cast a couple disable spells on your enemies, and then watch your pet devour their immortal souls. Its fun!

[Myrmex]

I recommend caring flasks of alchemist's fire and acid, as well as smoke sticks, caltrops, oil, and sunrods. And some tindertwigs.

Alchemist's fire are great for throwing at strange things growling in the dark, acid is useful for getting around things, smokesticks are a great way to get instant concealment (ie, protection), caltrops can cover your exit, and sunrods work in wet places, and are cheaper to throw away than everburning torches (brighter, too). This works for like the first 7 levels. Also, you can spend a turn throwing alchemist's fire or acid instead of using a spell. The splash damage on them is quite nice.

[streakster]

Oh, hey!

I noticed you have a wizard guide. Should you be contemplating sorceror instead, enjoy Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorceror Stratagems. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0)

Should you decide to try summoning, if the book would be allowed (I notice you said core only) enjoy Treantmonk's guide to the Malconvoker. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918792) Even if you can't play one, it has and links to great advice for all summoners.

Above all, have fun!

[DragoonWraith]

Beguiler is in the PHBII, a neato little book. Also contains the Duskblade, a martial caster who hits things with spells. Fun fun!

If you really want to summon, check out the Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel. Its all about being a good guy, then summoning evil things and tricking them into fighting other evil things for you. Very powerful and very flavorful. Wizard is a great base for it, especially if you are a Conjourer. There is a Conjourer Alt Class Feature in UA (and consequently on www.d20srd.org) that allows you to trade away your familar for the ability to cast summon spells as a standard action instead of a full round action. This is really good for summoning. Other than that, bind a big demon, buff it to hell, cast a couple disable spells on your enemies, and then watch your pet devour their immortal souls. Its fun!
All sounds awesome. Don't have access to those, though. Having never played D&D before, I don't intend to go out and buy a bunch of books at the moment... maybe at some point.


I recommend caring flasks of alchemist's fire and acid, as well as smoke sticks, caltrops, oil, and sunrods. And some tindertwigs.

Alchemist's fire are great for throwing at strange things growling in the dark, acid is useful for getting around things, smokesticks are a great way to get instant concealment (ie, protection), caltrops can cover your exit, and sunrods work in wet places, and are cheaper to throw away than everburning torches (brighter, too). This works for like the first 7 levels. Also, you can spend a turn throwing alchemist's fire or acid instead of using a spell. The splash damage on them is quite nice.
Ah, that's great advice. Thanks!


Oh, hey!

I noticed you have a wizard guide. Should you be contemplating sorceror instead, enjoy Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorceror Stratagems. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0)

Should you decide to try summoning, if the book would be allowed (I notice you said core only) enjoy Treantmonk's guide to the Malconvoker. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918792) Even if you can't play one, it has and links to great advice for all summoners.

Above all, have fun!
Awesome! Those were exactly the kinds of things I was looking for!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If this is the first time you are playing an arcane caster, I cannot stress enough how much more hassle and paperwork the Wizard is.

Seriously, go Sorcerer. Read Solo's Guide, which has a LOT of 'Core Only' ideas.

Sadly, sorcerers can't go Loremaster easily, due to the requirement of having SEVEN different Divination spells and FOUR different feats.

There really isn't a decent PrC for sorcerers in Core. The Theurge is actually not looking... too bad. Particularly not if you pair it with Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) from the SRD. Bunch of spontaneous spells available to you. Choose your Domains carefully, because those spells are added to the Spells Known. If you grab the Healing domain and the Liberation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#liberationDomain) domain, you pick up all your healbot spells gratis, so you can focus on grabbing useful spells to compliment your sorcerer spell list. Like picking up Protection from Evil on your Cleric list, and picking up Hold Person a spell level sooner.

True, it isn't perfect, you will never cast 9th level spells, but at least you will have a broader versatility. If that's not your thing, go Sorcerer16/Archmage4. It sucks, but hey, it's better than nothing.

[Nohwl]

But if you only use 1-2 spells, what should you do on the rest of your turns?


Yup, figured that out. Without the 3 level loss it'd be pretty awesome, obviously, heh, being able to be a Cleric or Druid and a Wizard or Sorcerer. *shrug*

battles dont last for a lot of rounds, so hopefully that wont come up. use your lower level spells if its not worth using a higher level spell, and you should be fine. you wont run out of spells per day (unless the dm gives you 6 combats or more combats in a day) once you learn to manage them.

if you ever use splatbooks, you could use an archivist to play something similar to a mystic theurge. it's the exception to the rule arcane magic is better than divine magic. the problem with mystic theurge is that you dont have enough actions to cast all of your spells, and you just cant use them all.

[ericgrau]

I like to break spells into ranked categories:
1. Crowd Control. Barriers, area of effect debuffs, etc. Make large groups into more manageable small ones.
2. Status Effect Buffs. A control similar to crowd control, but targets friendlies. Think of it as the difference between blindness and invisibility.
3. Direct Damage. Almost as strong as the first two, and it's easier to switch energy types than to overcome immunities/counters to the first two. Especially good for area, since the total damage adds up. A more reliable backup.
4. Save or dies. Anything strong enough to be worth hitting alone (rather than using an area spell) probably has a good save, making DD usually faster. But not always. Not to be confused with area debuffs (see #1).
5. Stat buffs (+X). Usually too weak to be worth a round or spell slot. Use your leftover lower level slots for these, outside of combat.
6. Utility spells. Used so rarely you're usually better off with a scroll. You only need a couple per spell since you barely use them, making the scrolls plenty affordable. Don't bog down your prepared spell list with them. Not to be confused with #2.

X. Misc (not ranked). Clever illusions and other misc. spells can be situationally useful. Give them some thought at least.

For your first caster I'd stick to full casting for maximum effectiveness and minimum complication. Go wizard or sorcerer then prestige into lore master and/or archmage if you want. Be especially careful about spell selection if going sorcerer since you can't swap them later. So sorcs may be less work but they're harder to make. Other than that the strategy is the same between the two.

[AmberVael]

Be especially careful about spell selection if going sorcerer since you can't swap them later.
Well... actually you can, to an extent.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows...
And etc. etc, you get the gist.

Also, I support Sorcerer over Wizard. Wizards are way annoying to keep track of- you have to figure out what spells to prepare every day, you have to figure out how to get new spells (because even being AS good as a sorcerer requires you to find spell scrolls/spell books/ways to learn spells and invest in them). For a new player less used to regulating their power, a Wizard is more difficult since they have significantly less spells per day, as well.

Wizards require tons of managing, and in the end I disagree with Ericgrau- they're just as difficult to make as a Sorcerer is, because they're based on all the same mechanics. If you know how to make a Wizard, you can make a Sorcerer. If you don't know how to make either, you might as well go for a Sorcerer because it is less confusing, and spells are the emphasis (and if you don't know the spells and how to use them properly, you'll be just as ineffective- if not more- with a wizard, who has less power per day to throw around).

[Nohwl]

my first character was a divine metamagic cleric and it worked out fine. hes read the guides to wizards and knows what spells to pick. he is not going to have many problems. its a bit work intensive to start out, but after that its not bad.

i think he will do good as a wizard.

[sonofzeal]

That sounds like a solid plan. Would Sorcerer/Lore/Arch be substantially different (beyond the normal differences between Wizard and Sorcerer), if I decided to do that?
Loremaster is hard to enter as a Sorcerer. Wizards can get a lot more spells and easily pick up the 7 Divination spells, but for Sorcs that's really going to hurt a lot. That's almost half of your spells known at the point when you can start gaining access to it! Also, it requires two knowledge skills, and Sorcs only have one as a class skill, and few enough skillpoints already. It's possible (and there's tricks to help), but it's prohibitively difficult to go straight in like that. To be honest, if I was in a core-only game and I wanted to go that route, I'd consider playing a Sorcerer 6 / Wizard 1 (or Cleric 1, or Druid 1) / Loremaster X. All will get you in much more easily than straight Sorcerer, without putting you so far behind that you couldn't still function. That said, there's plenty of other good PrCs out there that Sorcs can enter just fine.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

-snips a textblock which basically said the same thing I said an hour and a half ago- That said, there's plenty of other good PrCs out there that Sorcs can enter just fine.

Not in Core, there isn't... read the OP again.

[Waspinator]

Answering the question of "what do you do after your 1 or 2 control spells?", if you go outside of core to a book called "Complete Mage", there are these feats called reserve feats that let you use a spell-like ability at will as long as you have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet used. For example, there is a feat called "Fiery Burst" that lets you create a five-foot radius mini-fireball as long as you have a fire spell of second level or higher prepared, doing 1d6 per level of the spell, reflex save halves. Beats a wizard using a crossbow any day. Plus, you can pretend to be Roy Mustang.

Dedicated damage spells will of course be more powerful, but this way you can burn things all you want while only requiring a single spell slot to be held in reserve.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Answering the question of "what do you do after your 1 or 2 control spells?", if you go outside of core to a book called "Complete Mage", there are these feats called reserve feats that let you use a spell-like ability at will as long as you have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet used. For example, there is a feat called "Fiery Burst" that lets you create a five-foot radius mini-fireball as long as you have a fire spell of second level or higher prepared, doing 1d6 per level of the spell, reflex save halves. Beats a wizard using a crossbow any day. Plus, you can pretend to be Roy Mustang.

Dedicated damage spells will of course be more powerful, but this way you can burn things all you want while only requiring a single spell slot to be held in reserve.

1) Core Only

2) Most reserve feats SUCK. Fiery Burst is the worst feat to get as a Sorcerer. He has so much greater damage potential with a great many other things at his disposal.

3) A Sorcerer who only has one or two spells worth casting in combat needs to go hang up his character sheet and roll a Fighter.

Seriously, by round 3, Murphy's Laws of Combat will have begun reshaping things, and you can situationally either use Save or Loose effects on stragglers, buff allies, or just look that damn cool by striking an awesome pose while the rest of combat is going on about you.

If you want blasting all day long, go Warlock. At least they do it better than reserve feats.

[sonofzeal]

Not in Core, there isn't... read the OP again.
Ah my apologies, I missed your post. My comments about dip-entry to Loremaster still stand; it's maybe not the most optimized build ever, but certainly entirely playable and will get him in without much muss and fuss.

As to Core-only PrCs... well, he didn't actually say "Core", he said "SRD". And in SRD there's Battle Sorcerer 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) / Fighter 1 / Eldritch Knight X (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm), which is again maybe not the most optimized, but very easy to play, will give him good hands-on experience with arcane magic, and should be at least reasonable even if he messes up spell selection. Battle Sorc will improve his gish-ness and let him actually wear armor (a weakness in Eldritch Knight as-printed), and he'll still hit 9th level spells eventually.

[Juggernaut1981]

Using Core books only:

Sorcerer (Cannon) = Cannon + Heartbeat. You walk around and blast things from a long way away... (you could be the dude who could create an entire illusionary world around other beings 24/7 if you want...)

Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) = Everybody gets neutered. Hold Person, Enfeeblement, Grease... if it is an enchantment/necromancy and likely to make someone else's life harder... that's your kind of spell.

Wizard (ALL KINDS) = "I believe I have Rary's Rather Large Rat Repellant Emanating Fog of Lavender in my scrollcase here somewhere... oh there it is right next to Mordenkainen's Magnificent Cutlery Set" Seriously, if its on a scroll buy it and write in your book, then copy it out of the book onto a Scroll and have a scroll case that was single-handedly responsible for the Deforestation of the Great Desert... Most people seem to forget about Downtime and Scribe Scroll... Wizards should NEVER run out of spells, if you run out then the next time you go to town... BUY LOTS MORE PAPER YOU TWIT!!!!

Cleric = I am the impenetrable walking fortresss of smackdown. Spells + Heavy Armour... even just using the Core Books... seriously well-done Clerics are HARDCORE. This is before you include the overpowered cheese that allow you to burn turning attempts to power metamagic feats... (Which peanut brained crack smoking chimpanzee thought that was a balanced mechanic????)


My personal choice: Wizard. But then I have played Wizards and Rogues for almost every single one of my characters... the party got the poos with my Saintly Paladin and another time my Cleric basically died when the rest of the party was nerfed at the same time (but there was comedy GOLD leading up to that point, including the Cleric impersonating the god of Kuotoans)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah my apologies, I missed your post. My comments about dip-entry to Loremaster still stand; it's maybe not the most optimized build ever, but certainly entirely playable and will get him in without much muss and fuss.

As to Core-only PrCs... well, he didn't actually say "Core", he said "SRD". And in SRD there's Battle Sorcerer 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) / Fighter 1 / Eldritch Knight X (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm), which is again maybe not the most optimized, but very easy to play, will give him good hands-on experience with arcane magic, and should be at least reasonable even if he messes up spell selection. Battle Sorc will improve his gish-ness and let him actually wear armor (a weakness in Eldritch Knight as-printed), and he'll still hit 9th level spells eventually.

Only... he actually wants to be useful at casting...

Seriously, battle sorcerer sucks. Less spells known = fail. Particularly as he will be the Primary Arcane Caster in the party, he is going to need MORE flexibility, not LESS. Just grab Mirror Image to make yourself practically immune to Melee, and start flinging spells. Never in your career should you ever consider getting into melee reach with ANYTHING.

[Quietus]

For a first character, if someone wants to go arcane spellcaster... or any spellcaster, to be honest... I ALWAYS recommend Sorcerer. I also suggest they ask the DM if he'll be a little lenient in allowing switching of spells known, at least at first, as the new player grows into his character.

I find the easiest way to go is with a human sorcerer, picking up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. There's a lot of nice rays, and these two feats combine to A) Add accuracy and B) Reduce problems involving party members in combat with your target. For nice usable rays, look at Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray, just from first and second level spells respectively. Point Blank Shot will also add a comparably significant amount of damage to Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, if you're starting at 1st level, 1d3+1 is proportionately nicer than just 1d3.

Try and keep a decent fort, reflex, and will save around - Grease is a nice reflex save, as is Web, though Web is higher level. Glitterdust, as mentioned, is nice for Will. And Scorching Ray will make for nice damage, if you need to do it, once you hit level 4. At either third or sixth level, I'd pick up Heighten Spell, so you can keep your save-or-sucks known to a minimum, casting Glitterdust as a 4th level spell instead of having to know it AND a 4th level Will is very helpful.

[ericgrau]

Well... actually you can, to an extent.

And etc. etc, you get the gist.

Also, I support Sorcerer over Wizard. Wizards are way annoying to keep track of- you have to figure out what spells to prepare every day, you have to figure out how to get new spells (because even being AS good as a sorcerer requires you to find spell scrolls/spell books/ways to learn spells and invest in them). For a new player less used to regulating their power, a Wizard is more difficult since they have significantly less spells per day, as well.

Wizards require tons of managing, and in the end I disagree with Ericgrau- they're just as difficult to make as a Sorcerer is, because they're based on all the same mechanics. If you know how to make a Wizard, you can make a Sorcerer. If you don't know how to make either, you might as well go for a Sorcerer because it is less confusing, and spells are the emphasis (and if you don't know the spells and how to use them properly, you'll be just as ineffective- if not more- with a wizard, who has less power per day to throw around).

Technically sorcerers can change a couple spells, but not many. I was well aware of that. You still have to pick carefully. Initially both a sorcerer and wizard are equally difficult, but if you screw up a wizard you can change your mind later. I'm just saying if he goes sorcerer to be careful and spend a good deal of time on spell selection. And planning for that matter; because ideally you want the good spells in your high level slots and out-of-combat buffs in lower level ones... which used to be your high level slots. That consumes a lot of your spell swapping right there. The wizard is more work later, but as for difficulty in making a character the sorc can give trouble to new players that don't spend enough time beforehand.

DragoonWraith: If you want more help with the your spell list, feel free to ask. Maybe pick spells according to your own personal preference and post it so we can weed out problems. A sorcerer whom you knew for sure had a good spell array from the get-go would give the best of both worlds in terms of ease of play. Or just do it by yourself and be real careful, read the spell descriptions carefully, think of how they'd be used, etc.

[DragoonWraith]

Using Core books only:

Sorcerer (Cannon) = Cannon + Heartbeat. You walk around and blast things from a long way away... (you could be the dude who could create an entire illusionary world around other beings 24/7 if you want...)
Cannon? Heartbeat? Sounds interesting, but I don't know what you mean.


Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) = Everybody gets neutered. Hold Person, Enfeeblement, Grease... if it is an enchantment/necromancy and likely to make someone else's life harder... that's your kind of spell.
That sounds more like what I'll be aiming for. I figure the two Fighters + Rogue can handle damage.


Wizard (ALL KINDS) = "I believe I have Rary's Rather Large Rat Repellant Emanating Fog of Lavender in my scrollcase here somewhere... oh there it is right next to Mordenkainen's Magnificent Cutlery Set" Seriously, if its on a scroll buy it and write in your book, then copy it out of the book onto a Scroll and have a scroll case that was single-handedly responsible for the Deforestation of the Great Desert... Most people seem to forget about Downtime and Scribe Scroll... Wizards should NEVER run out of spells, if you run out then the next time you go to town... BUY LOTS MORE PAPER YOU TWIT!!!!
That's a great idea. Thanks, I never would have thought of that.


Cleric = I am the impenetrable walking fortresss of smackdown. Spells + Heavy Armour... even just using the Core Books... seriously well-done Clerics are HARDCORE. This is before you include the overpowered cheese that allow you to burn turning attempts to power metamagic feats... (Which peanut brained crack smoking chimpanzee thought that was a balanced mechanic????)
Personal buffs are less interesting to me. *shrug* But how does one accomplish that cheese, anyway?


My personal choice: Wizard. But then I have played Wizards and Rogues for almost every single one of my characters... the party got the poos with my Saintly Paladin and another time my Cleric basically died when the rest of the party was nerfed at the same time (but there was comedy GOLD leading up to that point, including the Cleric impersonating the god of Kuotoans)
That sounds amusing.


For a first character, if someone wants to go arcane spellcaster... or any spellcaster, to be honest... I ALWAYS recommend Sorcerer. I also suggest they ask the DM if he'll be a little lenient in allowing switching of spells known, at least at first, as the new player grows into his character.
Yeah, I definitely will be asking Ernir for a little leniency there, if I go that route. That, or get a very good idea of what I'm looking for here.


I find the easiest way to go is with a human sorcerer, picking up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. There's a lot of nice rays, and these two feats combine to A) Add accuracy and B) Reduce problems involving party members in combat with your target. For nice usable rays, look at Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray, just from first and second level spells respectively. Point Blank Shot will also add a comparably significant amount of damage to Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, if you're starting at 1st level, 1d3+1 is proportionately nicer than just 1d3.
Rays sound cool, but TLN suggested that damage is a waste of time - for Wizards. Is it different for Sorcerers, or do you simply disagree?


Try and keep a decent fort, reflex, and will save around - Grease is a nice reflex save, as is Web, though Web is higher level. Glitterdust, as mentioned, is nice for Will. And Scorching Ray will make for nice damage, if you need to do it, once you hit level 4. At either third or sixth level, I'd pick up Heighten Spell, so you can keep your save-or-sucks known to a minimum, casting Glitterdust as a 4th level spell instead of having to know it AND a 4th level Will is very helpful.
Heightened Spell seems amazing for the Sorcerer. Will keep that in mind.

Metamagic on a Sorcerer seems a little weaker, though, because of the extra time thing.


Technically sorcerers can change a couple spells, but not many. I was well aware of that. You still have to pick carefully. Initially both a sorcerer and wizard are equally difficult, but if you screw up a wizard you can change your mind later. I'm just saying if he goes sorcerer to be careful and spend a good deal of time on spell selection. And planning for that matter; because ideally you want the good spells in your high level slots and out-of-combat buffs in lower level ones... which used to be your high level slots. That consumes a lot of your spell swapping right there. The wizard is more work later, but as for difficulty in making a character the sorc can give trouble to new players that don't spend enough time beforehand.

DragoonWraith: If you want more help with the your spell list, feel free to ask. Maybe pick spells according to your own personal preference and post it so we can weed out problems. A sorcerer whom you knew for sure had a good spell array from the get-go would give the best of both worlds in terms of ease of play. Or just do it by yourself and be real careful, read the spell descriptions carefully, think of how they'd be used, etc.
Thanks, I will definitely do that.

[streakster]

A sorcerer can be quite a good blaster. Generally, its not considered effective for Wizards to blast because its more effective for them to leave all the enemies naked, hogtied and upsidedown for the fighter to coup-de grace.

A sorcerer has the spell slots to blast, if he wants to. Generally, this is even the sorcerer's archetypical role in combat: "casts the spells that makes the mans fall down."


There's a variant sorcerer that gets better metamagic, but again, not in core. I personally don't take much metamagic as a sorcerer, no.

[Keld Denar]

Its good for a Sorcerer to have a little bit of damage, and for damage, you really can't go wrong with Scorching Ray. Its low level, but scales better than a lot of other damage spells (caps at 12d6). It also responds well to being Empowered, and I highly suggest you pick up Empower spell because there are plenty of other spells that respond well to Empower as well (mostly necromancy spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation).

If you don't want to take any blasty spells, consider dropping 2 feats on Draconic Heritage (Copper or Black depending on alignment) + Draconic Breath. This allows you to convert spell slots into 60' streams of acid that deal 2d6 damage per level of the spell slot, with a reflex DC based on the level of the spell slot. This also allows you to pick up some utility and debuff metabreath spells like Blinding Breath or Dispelling Breath from the Spell Compendium to get more bang for your breath. This allows you to blast AND disable with the same action, and it scales with level. Plus, reflex saves tend to go down relatively as you gain levels, due to dex penalties associated with larger sizes. Definitely a versitile tactic.

[Crel]

My personal recommendation? Sorcerer. With the wizard's "save or fail" and "save or die" spells, what many people forget is that the monsters that you really want to put down usually have a good enough save to ignore it. Against a bunch of orcs etc, they do great. Against the inevitable big ol' dragon? not so much. A sorc would also prolly be really good for your party, because from what I can tell, you probably don't have a member with a high Charisma, aka a liar/diplomacy bitch. If you do end up with access to Complete Mage and Reserve feats, take Heighten Spell. Why, you ask? Because, a scorching ray could theoretically be heightened to however high you want, and still be "prepared" because a sorc doesn't have to choose his spells in the morning, which allows you to get more bang for your feats with level-based variables in Reserve feats.

If you want the loremaster setup though, definitely choose wizard. Sorcerers (at least mine) almost never have a great int, and so, whats the point in having a character based on intelligence based skills?

Summary of my ramblings: Sorcerer = versatile blaster; Wizard = party casting bitch that can pull up almost anything; Both = dead in melee combat.

[Berserk Monk]

Go sorcerer. Many people will tell you that wizard is better, but if this is your first character ever, it's better to got the path of sorcery (more spells per day and you have less variety in spells to worry about casting). Now, you mentioned thinking of going Mystic Theurge. My advise, take some levels of cleric and do it. Think about it: as a cleric, you can use strategy to plan ahead, and as a sorcerer, you can just rely on spontaneous spells to get you out of dire situations you didn't plan for.

[ericgrau]

On scrolls, metamagic and sorcerers:

Utility scrolls are a good idea for sorcerers to carry too. Just buy them instead of scribing them. Get a wide variety; since they're low level and you use them so rarely, they'll be cheap. You'll be ready for every weird little thing, so it's well worth it to get them as soon as you're high enough level to afford them for hardly any coin.

Metamagic is actually a very good idea for sorcerers, probably a major advantage of taking the class for all but quicken. Spending a full round action instead of a standard to cast a spell usually isn't a big deal, and the added versatility of being able to apply metamagic on the fly is nice. Heighten is a major one that benefits a sorc much more than a wizard, as mentioned. But, others like extend are helpful too. Blasty metamagic like empower and maximize are equally good for both wizard and sorcs, since wizards can usually tell ahead of time which spells they want to apply it to. Still good for sorcs though. Note that they also applies to other variable numeric spells like false life and ray of enfeeblement.

[streakster]

On scrolls, metamagic and sorcerers:

Utility scrolls are a good idea for sorcerers to carry too. Just buy them instead of scribing them. Get a wide variety; since they're low level and you use them so rarely, they'll be cheap. You'll be ready for every weird little thing, so it's well worth it to get them as soon as you're high enough level to afford them for hardly any coin.

Metamagic is actually a very good idea for sorcerers, probably a major advantage of taking the class for all but quicken. Spending a full round action instead of a standard to cast a spell usually isn't a big deal, and the added versatility of being able to apply metamagic on the fly is nice. Heighten is a major one that benefits a sorc much more than a wizard, as mentioned. But, others like extend are helpful too. Blasty metamagic like empower and maximize are equally good for both wizard and sorcs, since wizards can usually tell ahead of time which spells they want to apply it to. Still good for sorcs though. Note that they also applies to other variable numeric spells like false life and ray of enfeeblement.

Huh, weird. The full-round thing has always been a massive disadvantage for me.

Ah well, diff'rent strokes.

[Keld Denar]

You still get your 5' step. And its a full round action, not a full round (like summoning), so it still happens on your turn. Really, if you have to move, move and don't use metamagic. But, if you don't have to move, why not slap a little Empower on that Ray of Enfeeblement? You know you want to!

[Quietus]

Rays sound cool, but TLN suggested that damage is a waste of time - for Wizards. Is it different for Sorcerers, or do you simply disagree?

I find that having SOME damage capability is good, just don't rely on it. There will be times when you'll be happy to have one or two damage spells, in addition to save-based spells. That being said, there's lots of other great rays, such as Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+1/2 caster level str penalty for 1min/level), or Enervation (1d4 negative levels), where landing them can make a huge pain in the ass for your target. Point Blank Shot is nice for this, but the main reason I recommend PBS is to get Precise Shot. Precise Shot makes it so you don't take a -4 penalty for something being in melee, which IS a big deal.



Heightened Spell seems amazing for the Sorcerer. Will keep that in mind.

Metamagic on a Sorcerer seems a little weaker, though, because of the extra time thing.

It's annoying, sure, but it won't break you. Sometimes you'll not have any use for your move action, and sometimes you'll need it - but it's nice to have metamagic options for those times you aren't going to be moving around. You don't really need to run from that horde of Orc Barbarians, when you have a couple friendly meat shields, so you won't use that Move action most likely. Why not crank up the save of your Glitterdust spell to counter their Rage bonus to Will with that spare time?

[Suedars]

I find that having SOME damage capability is good, just don't rely on it. There will be times when you'll be happy to have one or two damage spells, in addition to save-based spells. That being said, there's lots of other great rays, such as Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+1/2 caster level str penalty for 1min/level), or Enervation (1d4 negative levels), where landing them can make a huge pain in the ass for your target. Point Blank Shot is nice for this, but the main reason I recommend PBS is to get Precise Shot. Precise Shot makes it so you don't take a -4 penalty for something being in melee, which IS a big deal.

I wouldn't bother with these feats. At low levels you don't have the feats to spare to dump 2 feats into boosting your ranged touch attacks, and at high levels touch attacks are easy enough to land that you'll consistently be hitting.

[Quietus]

I wouldn't bother with these feats. At low levels you don't have the feats to spare to dump 2 feats into boosting your ranged touch attacks, and at high levels touch attacks are easy enough to land that you'll consistently be hitting.

What else would you suggest a Human Sorcerer get for feats, then?

[DragoonWraith]

Curious as to the answer to that, myself.

By the way, started looking at the Spell list... I think if I were to be a level 3 Sorcerer, my spell list would be this:
5 level-0 spells:
Resistance
Message
Read Magic
Detect Magic
Prestidigitation
3 level-1 spells:
Mage Armor
Ray of Enfeeblement
SleepThoughts?

[sonofzeal]

Curious as to the answer to that, myself.

By the way, started looking at the Spell list... I think if I were to be a level 3 Sorcerer, my spell list would be this:
5 level-0 spells:
Resistance
Message
Read Magic
Detect Magic
Prestidigitation
3 level-1 spells:
Mage Armor
Ray of Enfeeblement
SleepThoughts?
Sleep is great at low level and becomes useless fast - a prime candidate for trading-out. You might want to consider "Ray of Clumsiness" instead of Enfeeblement, as it's exactly the same thing but for Dex (and hence debuffs AC and Ref Saves, and save-reducers rock). Grease is a classic at 1st level, too.

[Keld Denar]

Um, starting at level 3, Sleep is already starting to become lackluster. I'd go with Grease instead. Its not a game winning, but its still really really really good and continues to be good for the rest of your life (this spell single handedly disables most golems completely!).

Other than that, looks good!

Glitterdust should be your first spell next level. Its hands down probably the best 2nd level spell for a primary caster ever written.

[DragoonWraith]

You might want to consider "Ray of Clumsiness" instead of Enfeeblement, as it's exactly the same thing but for Dex (and hence debuffs AC and Ref Saves, and save-reducers rock).
Not in the SRD. Otherwise, yes, I would. What school does that fall under, by the way?


Other than that, looks good!

Glitterdust should be your first spell next level. Its hands down probably the best 2nd level spell for a primary caster ever written.
Thanks! Yeah, that's been mentioned several times, and I have every intention of it.


Sleep is great at low level and becomes useless fast - a prime candidate for trading-out. [...] Grease is a classic at 1st level, too.
Um, starting at level 3, Sleep is already starting to become lackluster. I'd go with Grease instead. Its not a game winning, but its still really really really good and continues to be good for the rest of your life (this spell single handedly disables most golems completely!).
Ah! I was right the first time. Switched Grease for Sleep at the last minute.

So my two questions, I guess, are "do I want to do summoning?" (seems like it might be a lot for me to keep track of, all the different summons with all their different abilities...), and "is getting involved in Crafting a good idea?"

And thoughts on a final spell selection (level learned) [School]:
level-0
Resistance (1) [Abjur]
Detect Magic (1) [Div]
Read Magic (1) [Div]
Message (1) [Trans]
Prestidigitation (2) [Univ]
Ghost Sound (4) [Illus]
Mage Hand (6) [Trans]
Dancing Lights (8) [Evoc]
Arcane Mark (10) [Univ]
level-1
Ray of Enfeeblement (1) [Necro]
Mage Armor (1) [Conj]
Grease (3) [Conj]
Magic Weapon (5) [Trans]
Identify (7) [Div] -> Comprehend Languages (16) [Div]
level-2
Glitterdust (4) [Conj]
Eagle's Splendor (5) [Trans]
Mirror Image (7) [Illus] -> See Invisibility (10) [Div]
Rope Trick (9) [Trans]
level-3
Ray of Exhaustion (6) [Necro]
Major Image (7) [Illus]
Fly (9) [Trans] -> Haste (14) [Trans]
Arcane Sight (11) [Div] -> Tongues (18) [Div]
level-4
Enervation (8) [Necro]
Greater Invisibility (9) [Illus]
Dimension Door (11) [Conj]
Dimensional Anchor (13) [Abjur]
level-5
Shadow Evocation (10) [Illus]
Persistent Image (11) [Illus]
Overland Flight (13) [Trans]
Mirage Arcana (15) [Illus]
level-6
Anti-Magic Field (12) [Abjur]
Veil (13) [Illus]
Geas (15) [Ench]
level-7
Greater Shadow Conjuration (12) [Illus]
Ethereal Jaunt (13) [Trans]
Greater Arcane Sight (15) [Div]
level-8
Greater Shadow Evocation (16) [Illus]
Irresistable Dance (17) [Ench]
Mind Blank (19) [Abjur]
level-9
Shades (18) [Illus]
Time Stop (19) [Trans]
Dominate Monster (20) [Ench]Thoughts?

[Keld Denar]

That is actually kinda funny. While Ray of Enfeeblement is Necromancy, Ray of Clumisiness is Transmutation. I mean, other than that, they are the exact same spell if you hit Ctr + F and find/replace Str with Dex.

Personally, I like Ray of Enfeeblement better. Dropping a foes str drastically lowers damage output, while dropping their dex only slightly affects AC and reflex saves. Ray of Cluminess is useful for setting up 1-2 punches with strong reflex based spells, but for general use, I'd rather RoE.

Plus, depending on the tactics of whatever you are fighting, if you drop your foes Str down to 12 or less, they can't use Power Attack (requires 13+ str) or any PA related feats or class features. Thats awesome. Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement will pretty much neuter any humanoid str based melee character on a decent roll. Its a good thing!

EDIT:
Magic Weapon at the level you get it is kinda...meh. I wouldn't get it.

Eagles Splendor, by the time you get it, is also rather lack luster. You should have a +2 cha item by then, at which point its only giving you a +1 DC. Keep in mind that you don't get extra spell slots from temporary increases in cha.

You should get Haste right at 6th. Its soooooo strong at that point. Seriously. Then get Fly at 7th and then maybe Ray of Exhaustion at 9. That would be my suggestion.

Enervation is decent as your first pick at level 8, but I'd probably take Solid Fog instead. SF is a no-save, no-sr nearly uncounterable time out for 2 rounds spell. It will probably be the first spell you cast every combat that you fight more than a single foe, since it effectively removes 1-2 combatants from the game, giving you 2 rounds to mop up their friends before turning your busy blades on the clueless baddies emerging from it. As a Sorcerer, you can literally SPAM it because its that good.

While I like Dim Door, if you aren't taking it until 11th level, swap it for the 5th level Teleport instead. TP is everything Dim Door is and more. That frees up another 4th level slot to take Evards Black Tenticles. That spell ends fights against anything medium sized or smaller. If you have a cleric or bard on your team that can drop a silence on the area in tandem with your EBT, thats pretty much good game over.

Other than that, looks ok.

[Starbuck_II]

If you want the loremaster setup though, definitely choose wizard. Sorcerers (at least mine) almost never have a great int, and so, whats the point in having a character based on intelligence based skills?

Summary of my ramblings: Sorcerer = versatile blaster; Wizard = party casting bitch that can pull up almost anything; Both = dead in melee combat.

What? My Wu Jen survived melee, but then he wore a +1 Twlight Mithral Chain Shirt (5000 gp) and +1 Mithral Buckler (2000 gp).
Surviving melee combat: Priceless.

[DragoonWraith]

That is actually kinda funny. While Ray of Enfeeblement is Necromancy, Ray of Clumisiness is Transmutation. I mean, other than that, they are the exact same spell if you hit Ctr + F and find/replace Str with Dex.

Personally, I like Ray of Enfeeblement better. Dropping a foes str drastically lowers damage output, while dropping their dex only slightly affects AC and reflex saves. Ray of Cluminess is useful for setting up 1-2 punches with strong reflex based spells, but for general use, I'd rather RoE.

Plus, depending on the tactics of whatever you are fighting, if you drop your foes Str down to 12 or less, they can't use Power Attack (requires 13+ str) or any PA related feats or class features. Thats awesome. Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement will pretty much neuter any humanoid str based melee character on a decent roll. Its a good thing!
Sounds awesome!


Magic Weapon at the level you get it is kinda...meh. I wouldn't get it.

Eagles Splendor, by the time you get it, is also rather lack luster. You should have a +2 cha item by then, at which point its only giving you a +1 DC. Keep in mind that you don't get extra spell slots from temporary increases in cha.

You should get Haste right at 6th. Its soooooo strong at that point. Seriously. Then get Fly at 7th and then maybe Ray of Exhaustion at 9. That would be my suggestion.

Enervation is decent as your first pick at level 8, but I'd probably take Solid Fog instead. SF is a no-save, no-sr nearly uncounterable time out for 2 rounds spell. It will probably be the first spell you cast every combat that you fight more than a single foe, since it effectively removes 1-2 combatants from the game, giving you 2 rounds to mop up their friends before turning your busy blades on the clueless baddies emerging from it. As a Sorcerer, you can literally SPAM it because its that good.

While I like Dim Door, if you aren't taking it until 11th level, swap it for the 5th level Teleport instead. TP is everything Dim Door is and more. That frees up another 4th level slot to take Evards Black Tenticles. That spell ends fights against anything medium sized or smaller. If you have a cleric or bard on your team that can drop a silence on the area in tandem with your EBT, thats pretty much good game over.

Other than that, looks ok.
OK, then revised list: Charm Person instead of Magic Weapon, Mirror Image instead of Eagle's Splendor and taking See Invisibility at 9, reworks of 3rd and 4th level spells, Teleport instead of Persistent Image.
level-0
Resistance (1) [Abjur]
Detect Magic (1) [Div]
Read Magic (1) [Div]
Message (1) [Trans]
Prestidigitation (2) [Univ]
Ghost Sound (4) [Illus]
Mage Hand (6) [Trans]
Dancing Lights (8) [Evoc]
Arcane Mark (10) [Univ]
level-1
Ray of Enfeeblement (1) [Necro]
Mage Armor (1) [Conj]
Grease (3) [Conj]
Charm Person (5) [Ench]
Identify (7) [Div] -> Comprehend Languages (16) [Div]
level-2
Glitterdust (4) [Conj]
Mirror Image (5) [Illus]
See Invisibility (7) [Div]
Rope Trick (9) [Trans]
level-3
Haste (6) [Trans]
Fly (7) [Trans]
Major Image (9) [Illus]
Arcane Sight (11) [Div] -> Tongues (18) [Div]
level-4
Solid Fog (8) [Conj]
Enervation (9) [Necro]
Greater Invisibility (11) [Illus]
Black Tentacles (13) [Conj]
level-5
Shadow Evocation (10) [Illus]
Teleport (11) [Conj]
Overland Flight (13) [Trans]
Mirage Arcana (15) [Illus]
level-6
Anti-Magic Field (12) [Abjur]
Veil (13) [Illus]
Geas (15) [Ench]
level-7
Greater Shadow Conjuration (12) [Illus]
Ethereal Jaunt (13) [Trans]
Greater Arcane Sight (15) [Div]
level-8
Greater Shadow Evocation (16) [Illus]
Irresistable Dance (17) [Ench]
Mind Blank (19) [Abjur]
level-9
Shades (18) [Illus]
Time Stop (19) [Trans]
Dominate Monster (20) [Ench]

[ericgrau]

Sorry, I wrote what's below after reading your first list, so some things may have changed. The tips between the lists are good and I'd agree.

Magic weapon only gives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. You can already get +1 AB from getting masterwork weapons. The spell is pretty much for breaking DR, that's it. Too situational, put on a scroll if anything. Identify should also be on scrolls; you're already paying 100gp, might as well pay another 25 and it's situational anyway. You don't necessarily need it during an adventure, maybe just pay an NPC after. Eagle's splendor should be replaced by a cloak of charisma at later levels. If you want to cast it outside of combat early on that's fine (+X buffs are too weak to use in combat), but I'd swap it out at later levels. See invisibility is likewise situational; unless you fight invisible foes on a daily basis I'd buy it on a scroll or scrolls. Comprehend languages, tongues and dimensional anchor are likewise situational, and belong on scrolls. Dimensional anchor is 4th level, which is a bit expensive for a scroll, so that one's up to you.

I'd avoid getting too many spells that do the same thing, if possible. Sometimes they're different enough that you just have to have both, but you'll be more versatile if you can just get one of each. I also wouldn't count on shadow evocation and conjuration to replace all or even most of the evocation and conjuration spells. Just the misc ones, perhaps (and I'd keep a list so you can remember them). There are a lot of good ones where you'll want the real thing. My favorites are the walls (especially stone & force) and solid fog to divide the enemy, plus a nice source of metamagicked out backup damage, but I don't want to sway your focus if you're shooting for something else.

You don't seem to have many high level combat spells, unless you want illusions to be your focus. Which is awesome, just make sure you have a plan for your illusions. And consider the [greater] spell focus (illusion) feat[s] if you go this route. Otherwise I generally consider spells numbered 1-3 on my previous list to be good "combat spells". You already have some at lower levels, like grease, glitterdust and haste.

[DragoonWraith]

Sorry, I wrote what's below after reading your first list, so some things may have changed. The tips between the lists are good and I'd agree.
It's cool, it's really good advice, I think. I was thinking too much like a Wizard, I think. Still tempted to go back to Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage, actually - I like the versatility of knowing lots and lots of spells. Might make crafting worthwhile, too (I decided against crafting as the Sorcerer because most cool things require little spells like Eagle's Splendor that I don't want to get otherwise). But I think for my first game versatility is only going to make things difficult, and make me spend more time on this than I can afford at the moment (though I think I'd enjoy it). Next time, perhaps.

Therefore, new list, though mostly the old one with suggested tweaks and some going over the spell list. Ditched a lot of Divination spells that I'd taken in a half-assed attempt to qualify for Loremaster - just not going to happen, sadly. The lack of PrCs for Core Sorcerers is disconcerting, seeing as they get almost nothing from base class levels (everything I've read suggests that Familiars are usually useless, and making them not-useless usually requires not-Core material).

Also, new format - what I'll grab each level. If anyone would prefer the old format, I can get it pretty easily - I have my spells in an Excel document that self-updates. It's very convenient.

(Sor 1)
0 Resistance [Abjur]
0 Detect Magic [Div]
0 Read Magic [Div]
0 Prestidigitation [Trans]
1 Ray of Enfeeblement [Necro]
1 Mage Armor [Conj]
(Sor 2)
0 Message [Trans]
(Sor 3)
1 Grease [Conj]
(Sor 4)
0 Ghost Sound [Illus]
2 Glitterdust [Conj]
(Sor 5)
1 Charm Person [Ench]
2 Mirror Image [Illus]
(Sor 6)
0 Mage Hand [Trans]
3 Haste [Trans]
(Sor 7)
1 Protection from Law [Abjur]
2 Scorching Ray [Evoc]
3 Fly [Trans]
(Sor 8)
0 Dancing Lights [Evoc]
4 Solid Fog [Conj]
(Sor 9)
2 Rope Trick [Trans]
3 Wind Wall [Evoc]
4 Enervation [Necro]
(Sor 10)
0 Arcane Mark [Univ]
5 Shadow Evocation [Illus]
(Sor 11)
3 Magic Circle against Law [Abjur]
4 Greater Invisibility [Illus]
5 Teleport [Trans]
(Sor 12)
6 Anti-Magic Field [Abjur]
Forget Protection from Law [Abjur], learn Alarm [Abjur]
(Sor 13)
4 Black Tentacles [Conj]
5 Magic Jar [Necro]
6 Acid Fog [Conj]
(Sor 14)
7 Greater Shadow Conjuration [Illus]
Forget Solid Fog [Conj], learn Wall of Force [Evoc]
(Sor 14 / Arch 1)
5 Mirage Arcana [Illus]
6 Veil [Illus]
7 Reverse Gravity [Trans]
(Sor 14 / Arch 2)
8 Greater Shadow Evocation [Illus]
(Sor 14 / Arch 3)
7 Project Image [Illus]
8 Scintillating Pattern [Illus]
(Sor 14 / Arch 4)
9 Shades [Illus]
(Sor 14 / Arch 5)
8 Mind Blank [Abjur]
9 Time Stop [Trans]
(Sor 15 / Arch 5)
9 Dominate Monster [Ench]

[ericgrau]

Seems good for the most part. Wind wall, protection from law and magic circle against law seem a bit too situational, unless there's something about your campaign I don't know about. I went back over your list a second time to make sure you'd have combat spells on all levels (so you wouldn't be groaning until you leveled up a couple times), and it mostly checked out good. Levels 5 & 6 are missing combat spells, but you have plenty from levels 1-4 to carry you until you get level 7 spells. I think a sorcerer I played didn't have any of those kinds of spells on levels 5 & 6 either, except for a level 4 spell I put in level 5 b/c I ran out of level 4 slots and really wanted it. Maybe there just isn't much available. You don't seem to have many long-lasting buffs at lower level, which may leave you with more spells per day than you can use at mid to high levels. Some examples are energy resistance, protection from energy, greater magic weapon, heroism and stoneskin if you can find the space for them. Preferably you'd swap them in later, rather than making them your highest level spells at any point. Other between battle spells like detect thoughts to scout through wooden doors could work too. Again these are only for extra spell slots that you wouldn't have time to use otherwise; they're weaker than other spells. Or even if you leave the list as-is, I think it's good to go. Have fun.

While getting into loremaster is a royal pain, you can shoot for archmage fairly easily. Of the 3 feats required there's only 1 feat you wouldn't want to get anyway (skill focus - spellcraft), and even that can be semi-useful. And at level 14 you'll have at least 5 feats. The skills are probably skills you'll be maxing out anyway, though you may want a 12 int so you can get a good concentration check too. I'd probably put the spell focuses into illusion and conjuration, given your spell list and b/c a lot of those spells have saves. For your other two feats heighten spell and greater spell focus are possible options, or another metamagic.

[DragoonWraith]

I'm Human, so I get the extra Feat. Currently I'm planning on Improved Initiative (Human Bonus Feat), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (1st), Heighten Spell (3rd), Empower Spell (6th), Spell Focus: Illusion (9th), Spell Focus: Conjuration? (12th), Improved Counterspelling (15th), Reactive Counterspelling (18th) (if DM allows it; won't get Improved Counterspelling if not). Assuming I understand the Feat-gaining rules correctly (which I may not; it's not on the SRD as far as I can tell, so I'm almost guessing that it's 1 per 3 levels).

But lots of saves? I was trying to determine what my second Spell Focus should be, and I was having a lot of trouble. Grease and Glitterdust have saves (Reflex and Will, respectively), but as far as I can tell those are my only Conjuration spells that do. Solid/Acid Fog don't, Black Tentacles don't, and Mage Armor is cast on myself.

I was actually considering going with Enchantment for the second one. After getting Acid Fog I'd switch Solid Fog to Charm Monster, which would give me Charm Person, Charm Monster, and Dominate Monster. Also considering replacing Anti-Magic Field with Mass Suggestion - just not sure I see the point in an AMF that's centered on me. At any rate, those are all Will saves, and spells that do best against stronger (i.e. likely higher save stats) opponents than weaker ones.

The only other spell with a save that I have (other than Illusions) is Reverse Gravity [Trans] (Reflex). I don't have any Fortitude-save spells, though I have plenty of no-save spells that should handle that (yes?).

Unless... If I Shadow Evoke or Shadow Conjure, does the simulated spell's saving throw get affected by Spell Focus: Evocation or Conjuration, or is it still Illusion?

As for Protection from / Magic Circle against Law, we're a band of evil and/or chaotic individuals (two NE, two CN, one CE) in a Lawful Evil town. I figure we're very likely to come into conflict with the government, and those protection spells will be useful for that. The only fight the group has had thus far has been with a Paladin. Plus, they grant immunity to possession or compulsion by anything, at least as I read it. If we end up moving away from the town, I'll swap them, though.

Wind Wall, well, I'd just heard it was really good. Complete protection from arrows (and gases; not sure how common that's going to be) seems pretty good, even if it is "only" arrows. Still... yeah, looking again, Dispel Magic, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon... lots of probably better choices.

[Juggernaut1981]

I cannot recommend Evard's Hentai Black Tentacles enough. Very good spell and ironically the best place to cast it I have found is BEHIND the front-line combat monkeys of your enemies. That way you hit all of the ranged attackers and spellcasters who can't grapple for cheese.

The build for your Sorcerer generally looks pretty good.

To explain the Sorcerer (Cannon) and the Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) further.

Sorcerer (Cannon) takes a lot of direct damaging spells (Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Fireball, etc) and just pommels the crap out of anything within range that is still walking. Upside = room full of goblins just became room full of charcoal. Downside = Rogues/Assassins/Stuff with Reflex saves... they will dance all over your explosions and fillet out your kidneys.

Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) takes a lot of crippling spells (Grease, Glitterdust, Hold Person/Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc) and ensures that as many of the enemies are busy barely able to walk in their armour while your guys take out their trusty "Slashy McNecksnapper" and go to town. Upside = big bad mean nasty enemy turns into bumbling moron in about 3 spells, you sit back and maybe ping a few arrows/sling bullets at him to add insult to injury. Downside = Clerics/Intelligent Undead... these things have saves that are worth it, immune to most of the stuff you're doing and then cast a pile of nasty stuff back at your party.


It's always a good plan to have a small pile of scrolls with spells you may need but:
a) won't need every encounter, and
b) probably won't need more than once between trips to town


Good call on taking the Sorcerer to start with. I started with 3.5 Wizards (after 2E Wizards... *sighs*...) but for newcomers, Sorcerers are the probably the best way into playing a "my job is to cast spells in the combat" type of character.

[DragoonWraith]

I cannot recommend Evard's Hentai Black Tentacles enough. Very good spell and ironically the best place to cast it I have found is BEHIND the front-line combat monkeys of your enemies. That way you hit all of the ranged attackers and spellcasters who can't grapple for cheese.
Enough that I should try to get it earlier? It's currently my third 4th level spell, after Solid Fog and Enervation.


The build for your Sorcerer generally looks pretty good.
Thanks... I think I'm going to mess it up, though (see below).


To explain the Sorcerer (Cannon) and the Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) further.

Sorcerer (Cannon) takes a lot of direct damaging spells (Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Fireball, etc) and just pommels the crap out of anything within range that is still walking. Upside = room full of goblins just became room full of charcoal. Downside = Rogues/Assassins/Stuff with Reflex saves... they will dance all over your explosions and fillet out your kidneys.

Sorcerer (Squirrel-Puncher) takes a lot of crippling spells (Grease, Glitterdust, Hold Person/Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc) and ensures that as many of the enemies are busy barely able to walk in their armour while your guys take out their trusty "Slashy McNecksnapper" and go to town. Upside = big bad mean nasty enemy turns into bumbling moron in about 3 spells, you sit back and maybe ping a few arrows/sling bullets at him to add insult to injury. Downside = Clerics/Intelligent Undead... these things have saves that are worth it, immune to most of the stuff you're doing and then cast a pile of nasty stuff back at your party.
Heh, Squirrel-Puncher is definitely much more my style, methinks. Thanks for the info.


It's always a good plan to have a small pile of scrolls with spells you may need but:
a) won't need every encounter, and
b) probably won't need more than once between trips to town
Will have to remember that!


Good call on taking the Sorcerer to start with. I started with 3.5 Wizards (after 2E Wizards... *sighs*...) but for newcomers, Sorcerers are the probably the best way into playing a "my job is to cast spells in the combat" type of character.
Heh. Unfortunately, I think my preference would be for Wizard with the "my job is to cast spells, all spells"; I just don't want to deal with preparation or the relatively few spells/day of the Wizard my first time through.

Also, I like Prestige Classes. This... is going to cost me.

As I said, I think I'm probably going to mess up my pretty solid Sorcerer to do something a little different - namely, to get Prestige Classes some time before 15. Prestige Classes are simply more interesting to me...

So my new tentative plan is Sor 4 / Paragon 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 5 / Sor 1.

Cons: one lost caster level (groan), three less than ideal spells chosen (three Divinations are 0-level and I don't care, and Detect Thoughts is actually a spell I wanted anyway), one wasted feat
Pros: a lot of skills, two bonus feats, +2 Ability bonus, +3 Hit Points, +2 on 2 of Will/Fort/Ref saves, a Bonus Language (maybe useful, maybe), at-will Identify (whatever), Int-based special Gather Information (*shrug*)

It's basically something more interesting than Familiar improvement, fits character flavor somewhat better (though really I only came up with that flavor after thinking about this path), and interests me more.

I end up with just Detect Undead, True Strike, and Arcane Eyes as spells that I would have rathered replace with something else.

If my DM allows it, I may try to take another 0-level Divination (I have all of the Core ones, but there's one other I've found that's freely available on the Internet, namely Seeker's Chant) so I can get one of my higher level (probably 1st, but whatever) spells back. In the same vein, Lesser Telepathic Bond might be a better choice for 3rd level Divination than Arcane Eyes (thoughts?).

So, new list. Now includes Feats and other bonuses. Ability bonuses are purely guesses; I know Charisma is my most important stat followed by Constitution and Dexterity, but I don't know the relative value of these. Plus Loremaster makes Intelligence... well, worth considering, anyway.

Also, I'd be getting a Skill Focus in a Knowledge. Thoughts on which? I really have very little idea of how Knowledge comes up in game.

And the question of my second Spell Focus is still up in the air. I have Ench down here, mostly because after Illusion it seems like the only school with significant saves to buff. Matches character flavor well too.

My starting stats:
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 16

Level 1 (Sor 1)
Improved Initiative (Human Bonus Feat)
Extend Spell (1st)
Spells:
0 Resistance [Abjur]
0 Detect Magic [Div]
0 Ghost Sound [Illus]
0 Prestidigitation [Trans]
1 Charm Person [Ench]
1 True Strike [Div]
Level 2 (Sor 2)
0 Detect Poison [Div]
Level 3 (Sor 3)
Heighten Spell (3rd)
Spells:
1 Grease [Conj]
Level 4 (Sor 4)
Charisma +1 (4th)
Spells:
0 Read Magic [Div]
2 Glitterdust [Conj]
Level 5 (Sor 4 / Para 1)
Adaptive Learning: Diplomacy, perhaps, or maybe Use Magic Device
Level 6 (Sor 4 / Para 2)
Empower Spell (6th)
Skill Focus: Knowledge: (I dunno, one of em) (Paragon Bonus Feat)
Spells:
1 Detect Undead [Div]
2 Detect Thoughts [Div]
Level 7 (Sor 4 / Para 3)
+2 Constitution (Paragon Bonus Ability)
Spells:
0 Mage Hand [Trans]
3 Arcane Sight [Div]
Level 8 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 1)
+1 Charisma (8th)
Secret: Secret Health
Spells:
1 Mage Armor [Conj]
2 Ray of Enfeeblement [Necro]
3 Haste [Trans]
Level 9 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 2)
Skill Focus: Spellcraft (9th)
Lore
Spells:
0 Message [Trans]
4 Solid Fog [Conj]
Level 10 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 3)
Secret: Secrets of Inner Strength
Spells:
2 Rope Trick [Trans]
3 Fly [Trans]
4 Enervation [Necro]
Level 11 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 4)
Bonus Language: something
Spells:
0 Arcane Mark [Univ]
5 Shadow Evocation [Illus]
Level 12 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 5)
+1 Charisma (12th)
Spell Focus: Illusion
Secret: Lore of True Stamina
Spells:
3 Dispel Magic [Abjur]
4 Black Tentacles [Conj]
5 Teleport [Trans]
Level 13 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 6)
Greater Lore
Spells:
6 Mass Suggestion [Ench]
Level 14 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7)
Spell Focus: Enchantment (Secret: Applicable Knowledge)
Spells:
4 Charm Monster [Ench]
5 Magic Jar [Necro]
6 Greater Heroism [Ench]
Level 15 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 1)
Improved Counterspelling (15th)
High Arcana: Spell Power
Spells:
7 Greater Shadow Conjuration [Illus]
Level 16 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 2)
+1 Charisma (16th)
High Arcana: Mastery of Elements
Spells:
5 Mirage Arcana [Illus]
6 Veil [Illus]
7 Reverse Gravity [Trans]
Level 17 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 3)
High Arcana: Mastery of Counterspelling
Spells:
8 Greater Shadow Evocation [Illus]
Level 18 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 4)
Reactive Counterspelling (18th)
High Arcana: Spell-like Ability
Spells:
7 Project Image [Illus]
8 Scintillating Pattern [Illus]
Level 19 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 5)
High Arcana: Mastery of Shaping
Spells:
9 Shades [Illus]
Level 20 (Sor 5 / Para 3 / Lore 7 / Arch 5)
+1 Charisma (20th)
Spells:
8 Mind Blank [Abjur]
9 Time Stop [Trans]

[Keld Denar]

If you take Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion to get into Loremaster, you can take 2 levels in Divine Oracle (CDivine)...but oh wait...thats not core. Crap. That would be perfect too, and would give you Evasion, which is always fun.

EBT might be better to take than Solid Fog. Solid Fog is GREAT, but EBT ends encounters SOOOOO fast against certain things. Really, if you are fighting mostly medium sized foes, EBT is probably better. If you are fighting a lot of 2-3 creature large+ foes, Solid Fog is definitely the winner.

Another funny thing. With Loremaster 4, you get a free language. There is NO restriction on what you can pick for this language. So....pick DRUIDIC! lol, then taunt those tree humping in their own language. Maybe their mother really WAS a hampster!

[DragoonWraith]

Heh, I must say I'm pretty thrilled with the first response. I pretty much assumed people would be like "well, you can if you really want to..."


If you take Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion to get into Loremaster, you can take 2 levels in Divine Oracle (CDivine)...but oh wait...thats not core. Crap. That would be perfect too, and would give you Evasion, which is always fun.
Damn, that does sound good. Evasion (or the lack thereof) eliminated the Magelord option, which would have been excellent for the original incarnation of flavor-thoughts. Ohhh well.


EBT might be better to take than Solid Fog. Solid Fog is GREAT, but EBT ends encounters SOOOOO fast against certain things. Really, if you are fighting mostly medium sized foes, EBT is probably better. If you are fighting a lot of 2-3 creature large+ foes, Solid Fog is definitely the winner.
Will keep that in mind when I get that high.


Another funny thing. With Loremaster 4, you get a free language. There is NO restriction on what you can pick for this language. So....pick DRUIDIC! lol, then taunt those tree humping in their own language. Maybe their mother really WAS a hampster!
Win. My current Bonus Language is Undercommon, cuz there's a Drow in the party and I thought it'd be amusing. Adding Druidic would be perfect.

[Keld Denar]

Damn, that does sound good. Evasion (or the lack thereof) eliminated the Magelord option, which would have been excellent for the original incarnation of flavor-thoughts. Ohhh well.

Well, technically its not evasion. Its called Prescience Sense. Its worded exactly like evasion, minus the whole "only in light or no armor" clause. Not that that really matters for a full caster, but regardless, its not REALLY evasion, just acts as evasion. The PrC also has a d6 HD, better than your sorc or other caster PrCs.

Not that it really matters anyway, since its in Complete Divine. lol...

[DragoonWraith]

I'm thinking either Knowledge: History or Knowledge: Local for my second Knowledge skill. History gives me +2 to my Lore checks, and Local gives me +2 to regular Gather Information checks. Not quite certain which is better.

Nobility and Royalty strikes me as also useful (+2 Diplomacy and I could see putting the Knowledge to use), but not really very in-character, I think.

As for my Skill Focus: Knowledge feat, Arcana seems most likely. Yay for knowing lots about magic.

[Keld Denar]

The big 6 are fairly simple:

Religion - Undead
Arcana - Magical Beasts, Dragons, Constructs
Nature - Plants, Fey, Animals
Dungeoneering - Abberations, Oozes
Planes - Outsiders
Local - Most humanoids

Those ones you want to keep maxed, since they give you insight on the foes you fight. Consult your PHB for information on those.

Otherwise, Knowledge skills are basically a way for your character to get more information from your DM about something. Say....you are in a cave. You inspect the cave walls and ask if you can make a Knowledge Architecture check. If your DM agrees, you roll the check, and based on the results, your DM tells you that the walls were carved by Dwarves, or naturally occuring, or shaped by magic, or something useful that might help you deduce information. Its like mini-divinations, except they don't require spell slots. The big 6 listed above are very important, and the others can be simulated with a Lore check, provided your Lore check is high enough.

[DragoonWraith]

Aha. OK, so Local seems likely then. Would it be worthwhile to get 5 in History for the +2 to Lore? Would it be worthwhile to spend a few points in the others? I'm guessing yes; the Paragon and Loremaster gain a lot of skill points (for casters), by the end of those I'll have gained 60 skill points from them. I'll want a bunch in Spellcraft, Concentration, and obviously 15 in Knowledge: Arcana and 10 in another.

Various "talking to people" skills are also high on my list; let's take advantage of that Charisma! So Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and maybe Sense Motive would be high on my list. Gather Information seems related, too. And I want Use Magic Device, though that's lower priority. Four of those, the Loremaster doesn't get as Class Skills; I'll get one as Adaptive (probably Bluff, since it's currently my highest and likely to remain that way), but that probably means pumping the other three while I can. Unfortunately, the need to pump the two Knowledges comes first...

What are good levels for Concentrate and Spellcraft? Spellcraft obviously needs to be at least 15; I plan on the Counterspelling feats, which means recognizing spells is eminently useful. Is 15 enough, or should I expect to need more? How about Concentrate - if I stay back, should I not have to worry about being interrupted, or will it be a big problem if I don't get Concentrate high? How high? I'm looking for "enough", generally.

Also, just how much Bluff means you can lie your way out of damn near anything? I could potentially get 27 (Rank 23 + 4 Cha Mod + 1 Trait) Bluff without trying too hard if I choose it for my Adaptive Learning. Is that overkill? According to the SRD, it's their Sense Motive + 20 for something completely absurd; I'd get between 28 and 47 on my Bluff check, meaning on average I could beat anything with Sense Motive less than 17 (and a half, technically) - what kind of Sense Motive scores should I be expecting around 20?

[ericgrau]

Spells: Good point on the saves and X against law. Saves aren't as important for grease and glitterdust as they are for charm monster, because you get repeat tries on the first two and they tend to be against groups of weaker monsters. Ok go spell focus (enchantment) and keep the law spells. If you face archers every day then you can keep wind wall on your list instead of on scroll(s). It does consume a combat action though (something you want to avoid when possible), and you could also try scrolls of protection from arrows (for non-magical arrows) or gloves of arrow snatching. Heroism is nice b/c you can cast it in the morning but I'm not a big fan of greater heroism because the lower duration prevents this. Even so, if you have a buffing round and you're already done with the good spells like haste, you can dedicate that to greater heroism. Just don't spend a combat round on it; even direct damage will hurt baddies a lot more.

Loremaster: While loremaster doesn't technically say you can't take druid as your language, I think it's implied in the system that no non-druid can learn druid. And whichever druid you learn the language from or whoever slips you a written guide (how he has time to write one unnoticed, I dunno), would be barred from druidism. The 5 ranks in history to get +2 to lore must be ranks; feats and other bonuses don't count. The same goes for pre-requisites for prestige classes; that number is the number of ranks you must have not your total modifier.

skills: You can read the skill descriptions and find the DCs so you can get enough of each one. To boost your cha skills, try a circlet of persuasion to get a +3 for only 4500 gp. Yes, staying in back so you don't even have to make a concentration check to cast defensively is ideal when you can. And remember there are no natural 1's on skill checks. If you're gonna focus on anything like counterspelling then ya try to get spellcraft as high as possible or high enough for auto-success if you can. Otherwise skills should be a secondary priority, since they're severely limited in scope (times you can use them). And be sure to use skills only according to their scope; bluff only for telling lies, for example. Otherwise you get stupid game stuff like "He's acting like a chicken b/c I told him he was one, look at him peck." No... he just believes you're telling the truth, and that you're probably crazy or else you have a long awaken animal + polymorph story to tell him why he's human now.

[Keld Denar]

Um, I'd go with Knowledge Planes as your 2nd Knowledge skill. Outsiders tend to have a lot of wonky resistances, immunities, and special abilities, so learning about them is pretty important. Local is kinda buggy, since you only learn about the base creature type. For example, if you encountered a level 20 orc wizard and a level 20 orc fighter and you rolled Knowledge Local on both, you would get the same info. Orcs are strong, have darkvision and light sensativity, etc. There just isn't a lot to know about them. Whereas if you did a Knowledge Planes check on a Nalfeshnee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#nalfeshnee), you might learn that it has a Stench ability, Lightning Immunity, Blasphemy as a spell-like, and the ability to gate in more demons. Thats much more useful than learning that orcs have darkvision. Knowledge Local has a lot of other RP aspects (such as finding out if the duke has a daughter, or learning about the debts a certain merchant family may have) but that can also be obtained by a Lore check, so it may not be a huge issue if you don't have many ranks in it. Another good idea, especially when you get your loremaster levels, would be to drop 1 rank in ALL knowledge skills. Knowledge skills are trained only, so you can only roll if you have at least 1 rank. Who knows, you may roll high.

UMD is great. Its probably the best skill in the game. Seriously. Its also on the Loremaster skill list, so use those levels to drop as many points into it as possible.

Really, as a sorcerer, with Cha focus instead Int, its hard to get all the skills you need. I'd keep one social skill maxed (Bluff is a class skill for sorcs), along with Concentration. Then put some points in knowledges to qualify for Loremaster and in Spellcraft to qualify for Archmage. Other than that, keep UMD up and you should be good.

Also, don't forget your +5 ability points over 20 levels that you'll be putting in Cha, and probably your +6 Cha cloak at some point, and maybe even a Wish or 2 if you are lucky. Those all factor into your skill checks as well!

Also, Sense Motive is only a class skill for a select few classes. Most monsters and most NPCs won't have very many, if any, ranks in it. Your biggest issue would be pulling a fast one on Rogues, Bards, Clerics, and Paladins, although Clerics and Paladins don't have a ton of skill points to be throwing around anyway so they probably won't be much of an issue unless the NPC is a high level cleric judge or lawyer or something...

[DragoonWraith]

Spells: Good point on the saves and X against law. Saves aren't as important for grease and glitterdust as they are for charm monster, because you get repeat tries on the first two and they tend to be against groups of weaker monsters. Ok go spell focus (enchantment) and keep the law spells.
Since I can't ditch them now (not getting Sorcerer levels), I figure I only want a single against Law spell. I currently have a bunch of Protection against Law scrolls, which can probably do me until I can get Magic Circle against myself. My level 3 spells are Arcane Eyes (need for Loremaster), Haste, Fly, and Dispel Magic. Even in this situation, I'm not sure Magic Circle against Law is necessarily what I'd want...


If you face archers every day then you can keep wind wall on your list instead of on scroll(s). It does consume a combat action though (something you want to avoid when possible), and you could also try scrolls of protection from arrows (for non-magical arrows) or gloves of arrow snatching. Heroism is nice b/c you can cast it in the morning but I'm not a big fan of greater heroism because the lower duration prevents this. Even so, if you have a buffing round and you're already done with the good spells like haste, you can dedicate that to greater heroism. Just don't spend a combat round on it; even direct damage will hurt baddies a lot more.
Wind Wall replaced with Dispel Magic and/or Arcane Eyes (and/or Magic Circle against Law); Greater Heroism replaced with ... not sure. Could get Greater Dispel Magic and replace Dispel Magic with Magic Circle against Law. Could get Geas, which seems amusing, but it's not that great in combat (?). I could take Contingency but I'll be able to Shadow that a level later. There's the ever-popular Anti-Magic Field... but again, I don't see the point of it when it's centered around me. Acid Fog is very good but I already have Solid Fog; I could lose Solid Fog but that would be 5 more levels without either. Mislead could be nice for escaping, and Permanent Image may be useful - though Project Image seems much better and I'd get that 2 levels later. Thoughts?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and it has to be Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, or Evocation, or I can't qualify for Archmage (need 5th or better level spells from five schools; already have Shadow Evocation , Teleport [Trans], Magic Jar [Necro], and Mass Suggestion [Ench] at that point). So that eliminates Geas... and Greater Heroism, for that matter.


Loremaster: While loremaster doesn't technically say you can't take druid as your language, I think it's implied in the system that no non-druid can learn druid. And whichever druid you learn the language from or whoever slips you a written guide (how he has time to write one unnoticed, I dunno), would be barred from druidism. The 5 ranks in history to get +2 to lore must be ranks; feats and other bonuses don't count. The same goes for pre-requisites for prestige classes; that number is the number of ranks you must have not your total modifier.
Oh, I know they must be ranks. I wouldn't be having so much trouble, otherwise. As for Druidic, I'll ask the DM when the time comes.


skills: You can read the skill descriptions and find the DCs so you can get enough of each one. To boost your cha skills, try a circlet of persuasion to get a +3 for only 4500 gp.
Yup, going to.


Yes, staying in back so you don't even have to make a concentration check to cast defensively is ideal when you can. And remember there are no natural 1's on skill checks.
Key there is "when I can". I guess there's no way to know how often I will be forced to put myself in danger of losing concentration, but it makes it very hard to know how much of the skill is worth getting. Never failing a check is awesome - unless you only get checked once in a blue moon. If I have to pass the check several times a day, then I don't want to fail it often at all. Etc.

But at level 7 I can Fly. Oh.


If you're gonna focus on anything like counterspelling then ya try to get spellcraft as high as possible or high enough for auto-success if you can.
Yes... but what is "high enough for auto-success"?


Otherwise skills should be a secondary priority, since they're severely limited in scope (times you can use them). And be sure to use skills only according to their scope; bluff only for telling lies, for example. Otherwise you get stupid game stuff like "He's acting like a chicken b/c I told him he was one, look at him peck." No... he just believes you're telling the truth, and that you're probably crazy or else you have a long awaken animal + polymorph story to tell him why he's human now.
Ah, I have no intention of being a **** about it. Plus, ya know, the DM is not the kind of guy who would go for that.

Though my entrance into the story was appearing in the mad Halfling's spaghetti (spell back-fire during a time warp since the characters were essentially sitting around waiting for the Drow to brew his sleepyjuice), and I'm currently attempting to bluff (in Undercommon) that I am a spaghetti genie and that I'll grant them three wishes. Mostly because it amused me to say it; the character's just trying to buy time while he figures out what the hell happened and how he can get away from (among other things) the mad Halfling with a too-large spiked chain, a Drow in the middle of coating his arrows with poison, and a very, very large wolf...


Um, I'd go with Knowledge Planes as your 2nd Knowledge skill. Outsiders tend to have a lot of wonky resistances, immunities, and special abilities, so learning about them is pretty important. Local is kinda buggy, since you only learn about the base creature type. For example, if you encountered a level 20 orc wizard and a level 20 orc fighter and you rolled Knowledge Local on both, you would get the same info. Orcs are strong, have darkvision and light sensativity, etc. There just isn't a lot to know about them. Whereas if you did a Knowledge Planes check on a Nalfeshnee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#nalfeshnee), you might learn that it has a Stench ability, Lightning Immunity, Blasphemy as a spell-like, and the ability to gate in more demons. Thats much more useful than learning that orcs have darkvision.
Aha, ok then. Cool, I kind of wanted to take Planes anyway, just because [i]I want to know about them, heh.


Knowledge Local has a lot of other RP aspects (such as finding out if the duke has a daughter, or learning about the debts a certain merchant family may have) but that can also be obtained by a Lore check, so it may not be a huge issue if you don't have many ranks in it. Another good idea, especially when you get your loremaster levels, would be to drop 1 rank in ALL knowledge skills. Knowledge skills are trained only, so you can only roll if you have at least 1 rank. Who knows, you may roll high.
Will attempt to do so. Probably also going to stick another 4 in History.


UMD is great. Its probably the best skill in the game. Seriously. Its also on the Loremaster skill list, so use those levels to drop as many points into it as possible.
Fully intend to.


Really, as a sorcerer, with Cha focus instead Int, its hard to get all the skills you need. I'd keep one social skill maxed (Bluff is a class skill for sorcs), along with Concentration. Then put some points in knowledges to qualify for Loremaster and in Spellcraft to qualify for Archmage. Other than that, keep UMD up and you should be good.
OK, sounds good.


Also, don't forget your +5 ability points over 20 levels that you'll be putting in Cha, and probably your +6 Cha cloak at some point, and maybe even a Wish or 2 if you are lucky. Those all factor into your skill checks as well!
Yup, I know it. Should I dump all my extra points into Cha then? I get 7, by the way - Human Paragon 3 comes with 2 bonus points.


Also, Sense Motive is only a class skill for a select few classes. Most monsters and most NPCs won't have very many, if any, ranks in it. Your biggest issue would be pulling a fast one on Rogues, Bards, Clerics, and Paladins, although Clerics and Paladins don't have a ton of skill points to be throwing around anyway so they probably won't be much of an issue unless the NPC is a high level cleric judge or lawyer or something...
Very good to know. Cool. My own Sense Motive is limited to as high as I can get it during Human Paragon, since it's the only time I'll have it as a class skill...

By the way, we have a question about skills and multiclassing. The Human Paragon's Adaptive Learning special seems to imply that a class skill is only a class skill while you're leveling in that class (so after I stop leveling Sorc, I stop having Bluff as a Class Skill - unless I Adaptive Learn it, which I probably will). However, the online character sheet thingy we have doesn't seem to support "previously but not currently class skills". It's pretty well made in general, so now I'm questioning things. How does this work?

[Keld Denar]

Yea, online character sheets are notoriously bad with skills and multiclassing. Best way is to just figure it out, level by level.

There are 2 things to remember. Max ranks, and cost per rank.

Max ranks are determined by whether or not a skill has EVER been a class skill. Even if it was just for 1 level, and you didn't put any ranks in it then, the max ranks are ALWAYS LVL+3. If you've never taken a class with a skill as a class skill, its crossclass and max ranks are (LVL+3)/2 until the point where you take a level in a class that has a skill as a class skill.

Cost per rank is determined by what class you are taking at each level. If its a class skill for that class, you buy ranks 1 per point. If its not, you buy ranks 1 per 2 points.

Note that some things affect this. Human Paragon and Loremaster both make certain skills class skills for all of your classes. When this happens, pencil that skill in as a class skill for all classes and PrCs you take and buy ranks accordingly.

Make sense?

[DragoonWraith]

Cool. That was also the answer one of the guys came up with.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would highly suggest avoiding Magic Jar. Since you don't seem to have Conjuration, may I suggest Cloudkill? Guaranteed Con damage to all opponents is not a bad option.

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, Magic Jar is kind of a weird thing to have on my list, and probably just a bad idea. Unfortunately... can't take Cloudkill because I already have Teleport as a fifth level Conjuration, and I need different schools to qualify for Archmage. The other one I'd like is Feeblemind, but I already have Dominate Person. I have to take Abjuration, Divination, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation. Not really sure what the best way to handle that is.

[Keld Denar]

Cloudkill is decent, but I really don't like the fact that it moves away from you. Thats kinda stupid, I'd rather it either stays put, or moves where I want it.

And yea, Magic Jar is kinda hit/miss. Its rather difficult to use it effectively, and you can end up with a lot of missed actions in combat trying to get into someone's head, and unless you get a lot of out of character help, you some times end up accidentally hitting friends.

Like I said, wonky...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, Magic Jar is kind of a weird thing to have on my list, and probably just a bad idea. Unfortunately... can't take Cloudkill because I already have Teleport as a fifth level Conjuration, and I need different schools to qualify for Archmage. The other one I'd like is Feeblemind, but I already have Dominate Person. I have to take Abjuration, Divination, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation. Not really sure what the best way to handle that is.

Options:

1) Contingency. It's one of the few good Evocations, unless you really plan on (ab)using Greater Shadow Evocation

2) Baleful Polymorph. Effectively Fort Save or Die. One of the few Polymorph spells that isn't Polycheeze. If you don't have a whole lot of Fort save takedowns, this is a good one from the Transmutation college.

3) Overland Flight. It's a Bird, It's a Plane, it's YOU! Seriously, when is flying all day long NOT fun? Also a Transmutation, if you've already got Fort SoD covered elsewhere.

4) Prying Eyes. While the Greater version is so much better due to True Sight, you may consider it worth your while to summon a bunch of scouts for you.

5) Wall of Force. Another one of those rare good Evocation spells, and this one at 5th level.

6) Dismissal. Extraplanar Outsider? Punk'd.

[DragoonWraith]

OK, so this seems like the final plan. See any glaring flaws?


Level 1 (Sor 1)

Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana (Human Bonus Feat)
Extend Spell (1st)
0 Read Magic [Div]
0 Detect Magic [Div]
0 Ghost Sound [Illus]
0 Prestidigitation [Trans]
1 Charm Person [Ench]
1 Ray of Enfeeblement [Necro]
Level 2 (Sor 2)

0 Detect Poison [Div]
Level 3 (Sor 3)

Heighten Spell (3rd)
1 Grease [Conj]
Level 4 (Sor 4)

Charisma +1 (4th)
0 Seeker's Chant [Div]
2 Glitterdust [Conj]
Level 5 (Sor 4 / Para 1)

Class Skills: Knowledge: Arcana (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Bluff (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Concentrate (Con), Spellcraft (Int), others
Adaptive Learning: Bluff (Cha)
Level 6 (Sor 4 / Para 2)

Empower Spell (6th)
Spell Focus: Enchantment (Paragon Bonus Feat)
1 True Strike [Div]
2 Detect Thoughts [Div]
Level 7 (Sor 4 / Para 3)

Charisma +2 (Paragon Bonus Ability)
0 Mage Hand [Trans]
3 Arcane Sight [Div]
Level 8 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 1)

Charisma +1 (8th)
+3 HP (Secret: Secret Health)
1 Mage Armor [Conj]
2 Scorching Ray [Evoc]
3 Haste [Trans]
Level 9 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 2)

Rapid Metamagic (9th)
Lore
0 Message [Trans]
4 Solid Fog [Conj]
Level 10 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 3)

Willpower +2 (Secret: Secrets of Inner Strength)
2 Minor Image [Illus]
3 Fly [Trans]
4 Enervation [Necro]
Level 11 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 4)

Bonus Language: something
0 Arcane Mark [Univ]
5 Shadow Evocation [Illus]
Level 12 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 5)

Charisma +1 (12th)
Quicken Spell (12th)
Fortitude +2 (Secret: Lore of True Stamina)
3 Hold Person [Ench]
4 Black Tentacles [Conj]
5 Teleport [Trans]
Level 13 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 6)

Greater Lore
6 Mass Suggestion [Ench]
Level 14 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 7)

Spell Focus: Illusion (Secret: Applicable Knowledge)
4 Charm Monster [Ench]
5 Feeblemind [Ench]
6 Greater Dispel Magic [Abjur]
Level 15 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 8)

Skill Focus: Spellcraft (15th)
Bonus Language: ???
7 Greater Shadow Conjuration [Illus]
Level 16 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 8 / Arch 1)

Charisma +1 (16th)
High Arcana: Spell Power
5 Waves of Fatigue [Necro]
6 Disintegrate [Trans]
7 Project Image [Illus]
Level 17 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 8 / Arch 2)

High Arcana: Mastery of Counterspelling
8 Greater Shadow Evocation [Illus]
Level 18 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 9 / Arch 2)

Arcane Thesis (18th)
Reflex +2 (Secret: Knowledge of Avoidance)
7 Reverse Gravity [Trans]
8 Scintillating Pattern [Illus]
Level 19 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 9 / Arch 3)

High Arcana: Mastery of Shaping
9 Dominate Monster [Ench]
Level 20 (Sor 4 / Para 3 / Lore 9 / Arch 4)

Charisma +1 (20th)
High Arcana: Spell-like Ability
8 Mind Blank [Abjur]
9 Time Stop [Trans]

[Keld Denar]

What are you writting your Arcane Thesis on? The most obvious answer, IMO, would be Enervation, although I notice a distinct lack of the Split Ray feat. Split Ray Empowered Enervations are stupid good, especially if you roll well. At the price of a 6th level spell, thats awesome. Burn an 8th level slot on Quickened Split Ray Enervation, or a 9th level on Quickened Split Ray Empowered Enervation for a 1-2 punch that packs 8-12 negative levels. Giving someone that much of a penalty to hit, not to mention 40-60 hps lost and the severe drain of high level spell slots is game ending for just about anyone.

Also, I'd move Master of Shaping down, and not even bother with Master of Counterspells. Take Spell Like twice if you have to. Once for Time Stop and once for...Teleport? Otto's? Greater Shadow Evocation?

[DragoonWraith]

What are you writting your Arcane Thesis on? The most obvious answer, IMO, would be Enervation, although I notice a distinct lack of the Split Ray feat. Split Ray Empowered Enervations are stupid good, especially if you roll well. At the price of a 6th level spell, thats awesome. Burn an 8th level slot on Quickened Split Ray Enervation, or a 9th level on Quickened Split Ray Empowered Enervation for a 1-2 punch that packs 8-12 negative levels. Giving someone that much of a penalty to hit, not to mention 40-60 hps lost and the severe drain of high level spell slots is game ending for just about anyone.
I'd have to ask the DM if Split Ray is allowed... have to ask about Arcane Thesis, too, for that matter. And Rapid Metamagic and Seeker's Chant; if I can't take the other level-0 Divination, that kind of hurts quite a bit early on, and obviously Quicken Spell is useless with out Rapid.

Anyway, I hadn't really thought too much about what to take the Thesis in... how does it work, exactly? I've seen lots of examples, and I know the general idea, but not the specifics. I just know that it's good.


Also, I'd move Master of Shaping down, and not even bother with Master of Counterspells. Take Spell Like twice if you have to. Once for Time Stop and once for...Teleport? Otto's? Greater Shadow Evocation?
The thought with Master of Counterspells was that I could Quicken things relatively easily, and then Ready for the standard part of my action if I'm around a nasty spellcaster. Greater Dispel Magic should mean that countering it shouldn't be impossible, plus I'll have plenty of Spellcraft for identifying the spell. That was the thought, anyway.

Anyway, Otto's? Not sure which one that is. The list on the SRD drops the names...

Also, if I don't get Master of Counterspells, I could (if I wanted) take Lore 10 instead of SLA a second time and get True Lore; is the 1/day free, instant Analyze Dweomer or Legend Lore any good?

[Keld Denar]

Otto's is Irresistable Dance. The PHB name, anyway.

Counterspelling in general is bad unless you are hyper-specialized in it. Since you aren't, its not worth the effort. You are better off readying an action to do something else that'll disrupt the spellcasting. Solid Fog blocks Line of Sight, which kills more targeted spells. Otherwise, an Archmaged Reached Irresistable Dance shuts a spellcaster down just as fast midcast. Something else that would work would be just about any damage spell. Even if it only does ~35 damage, thats a DC50 +spell level concentration check. Scorching Ray can handle that, and its only a 2nd level spell!

Arcane Thesis does 2 things. When you select it, you pick a spell. Your caster level for that spell is increased by 2. When you apply metamagic to that spell, the level adjustment is reduced by 1. The sage ruled that the total adjusted level of the spell can't be less than the origional level of the spell (so no Energy Subbed Fireballs as 2nd level spells), but for Enervation, its amazing. You will want to Empower your Enervations, and with AT, your Empower only increases it to a 5th level spell, instead of the usual 6th. Sometimes you'll want to Quicken your Enervations. AT reduces Quicken to a +3 for Enervation, so a Quickened Enervation is a 7th level spell, instead of 8th. And its effects stack. So a Quickened Empowered Enervation is (4 + 3 + 1)=8th level spell, instead of 10th (uncastable). Its really good if you plan on using one spell a lot, and Enervation is pretty universally accepted as one of the best core spells to take AT for.

As for your last question, take Archmage again and get another SLA. Its better than True Lore. WAY better. SLA effectively turns one of your 5th level slots into a 8th or 9th level slots. Thats a great trade up!

[ericgrau]

You need skill focus (spellcraft) not (arcana) to get into archmage.

[DragoonWraith]

OK, so that brings up another interesting point. Originally I was taking Irresistable Dance and Arcane Reach... but then I discovered that Irresistable Dance was my only Touch spell (other than perhaps Shadowed Evocations/Conjurations), so I swapped out Irresistable Dance and just didn't get Arcane Reach. Mistake?

And good to know on the Counterspelling. Will keep that in mind. Why so, though? I assume "hyper specialized" means Improved Counterspelling, Reactive Counterspelling, and Mastery of Counterspelling - but Improved Counterspelling doesn't do me a lot of good because almost all of my high level spells are Illusion or Enchantment. Reactive Counterspelling is good, but completely eliminates my next turn - instead of letting me cast a Quickened spell and use Ready. The way I figured it, Greater Dispel Magic and Quicken could allow me to almost match Improved/Reactive Counterspelling. Is there more to it that I don't realize?

Also, if SLA's are so good - should I try to get more? I was a little worried that I was losing a lot of 5th level slots... My 5th level spells are rather good, IMO (Dominate Person, Teleport, Feeblemind, Waves of Fatigue). I'm already losing one for Spell Power, and another for the first SLA. I'd get 6 total; I'm down to 4 and you're suggesting going down to 3... Not really sure the best way to play that is.

Finally Arcane Thesis. Sounds excellent, though it seems weird that a Illusion/Enchant character is going to do his thesis on one of his 3 Necromancy spells...

@ Eric: Yes, and I have that - the Skill Focus: Arcana is for Loremaster, which requires focus in one of the Knowledge skills.

[ericgrau]

Oh, whoops.

Quicken spell lets you cast as a swift action not an immediate action. So you couldn't use it to cast a counterspell when it's not your turn - you still have to spend a standard action to ready your swift action - unless you have some kind of feat for that which I didn't see.

[DragoonWraith]

Oh, whoops.

Quicken spell lets you cast as a swift action not an immediate action. So you couldn't use it to cast a counterspell when it's not your turn - you still have to spend a standard action to ready your swift action - unless you have some kind of feat for that which I didn't see.

Well the idea would be to use a Quickened Spell on my turn, and then still be Ready for Counterspelling afterwards.

Is Project Image worth it? At first I thought it read "The projected can't cast any spells on its own except for Illusion spells", implying that the Image could get its own turn on which it could cast Illusion spells (and on my turn could be the originator of other spells), in effect giving me an extra spell per round provided one of them was Illusion. I was all over that. But reading more carefully reveals that it can only cast Illusion spells on itself, i.e. when I cast self-targeting Illusion spells I can have them target the Image instead of myself (unlike self-targeting spells of other schools). That's massively less powerful. Still potentially useful, but not nearly as much so, especially since I already have Permanent Image at that point. Thoughts?

[ericgrau]

What am I thinking? Sorcerers can't quicken spells anyway, because all metamagic takes a full round action for them (including quicken).

Project image seems to say that you can cast spells from the image instead of yourself any time you want, from any school, but still only once per turn regardless of the kind of spell. You don't get an extra spell each turn no matter what. The difference with illusion spells is that when you cast from the image's POV the image can target itself (with other kinds of spells it can't). It could also target others with the illusions. I suppose you could use it to get better targetting angles or cast safely from around a corner (but still in view of the image), but otherwise I don't see much use for it. Perhaps not the best thing to dedicate a known spell to, unless you've thought of a way to use it all the time. But with its short duration, you'll probably only want to use it when you have a prep round (or else you'd blow a combat round on something questionably useful), which is a major downside.

[Keld Denar]

Hes taking Rapid Metamagic from Complete Arcane at level 9, which means he will be able to quicken spells as a sorcerer. 9th level is the earliest he can take it due to the required 12 ranks though.

And as for Projected Image, I don't really like it for the reasons Eric specified. Its just kinda unwieldly for standard D&D encounters. If you get the chance to really set it up, you can have some fun with it, but odds are you won't. Spells like that are generally bad to take as a sorcerer, since you want to make sure you get maximum versitility out of all of your spells. Maybe consider True Seeing instead? If you can stomache the 150g per casting. Still, when you need it, its pretty freakin amazing. Or maybe Lim Wish. Lim Wish has a bit of an xp component, but the things you can do with it are pretty amazing.

And like I said, its really better to not try to counterspell with a GDM because there is a significant chance to fail. If you counterspell with say....Empowered Scorching Ray (effectively 18d6 or 54 average damage) it forces a concentration check so high that its impossible to make even on a 20. Now, this doesn't work ALL the time (like if your target is Mirror Imaged), but its still pretty effective. Most of the time, however, you can just shut the caster down with something like an EBT or Solid Fog or other nasty spell and then wait till your team can devote all of their resources to making short work of the caster than trying to counterspell all the time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hes taking Rapid Metamagic from Complete Arcane at level 9, which means he will be able to quicken spells as a sorcerer. 9th level is the earliest he can take it due to the required 12 ranks though.

And as for Projected Image, I don't really like it for the reasons Eric specified. Its just kinda unwieldly for standard D&D encounters. If you get the chance to really set it up, you can have some fun with it, but odds are you won't. Spells like that are generally bad to take as a sorcerer, since you want to make sure you get maximum versitility out of all of your spells. Maybe consider True Seeing instead? If you can stomache the 150g per casting. Still, when you need it, its pretty freakin amazing. Or maybe Lim Wish. Lim Wish has a bit of an xp component, but the things you can do with it are pretty amazing.

And like I said, its really better to not try to counterspell with a GDM because there is a significant chance to fail. If you counterspell with say....Empowered Scorching Ray (effectively 18d6 or 54 average damage) it forces a concentration check so high that its impossible to make even on a 20. Now, this doesn't work ALL the time (like if your target is Mirror Imaged), but its still pretty effective. Most of the time, however, you can just shut the caster down with something like an EBT or Solid Fog or other nasty spell and then wait till your team can devote all of their resources to making short work of the caster than trying to counterspell all the time.

Actually, Scorching Ray may well be the best way to take out someone who is Mirror Image'd. Consider, you've got 3 rays, then another 3 rays, all with separate attack rolls. So either you start blowing all his illusions away, or you start doing damage to him. Either way, you win.

[ericgrau]

Ah I thought there might be something for quicken. Even so, using your quickened spell to cast a spell 3 levels lower than normal is kinda weak. Though with spells like glitterdust it might be something. The thing is, greater dispel isn't guaranteed to work. If the caster is worth countering, his level will be around yours, making your chances around 50:50. If you had improved counterspell and a variety of schools on each level, you might stop some spells... or waste a readied action if not. Not much better. And you can't ready a full round action, so that kills heighten for counterspelling. EDIT: oh right, does your metamagic thingy fix that too?

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, Scorching Ray may well be the best way to take out someone who is Mirror Image'd. Consider, you've got 3 rays, then another 3 rays, all with separate attack rolls. So either you start blowing all his illusions away, or you start doing damage to him. Either way, you win.
Good to keep in mind. Scorching Ray seems pretty sweet.

By the way, the DM OK'd Seeker's Chant (specifically "That spell looks thoroughly bad. You can have it. :D"), Reactive Counterspelling ("if you want"), and Rapid Metamagic ("powerful, but not broken").

As for Arcane Thesis, the DM was... hesitant. He's familiar with Thesis abuse, and said that's not going to happen (not that I intended it, which he knows; sort of a "but still" scenario). He mentioned Enervate specifically (though it was in reference to some kind of cheese where a Quickened Maximized Twin Rayed Chained Enervate somehow was a 5th level spell). We kind of left it at "we'll worry about it when I hit 18".

So then... Considering my character is focusing on Bluff, Knowledge, and Illusion and Enchantment spells, what "appropriate" spells would be best with Thesis? The DM didn't say it had to be particularly appropriate, but I'd rather it be. I'm planning on Heighten, Extend, Empower, and Quicken.

The Charms/Dominates are probably the most appropriate, but I think my Metamagics are useless with those. Heighten helps all of them but Dominate Monster (which I can't get a Thesis in anyway, since all my level 9 spells are on 19 and 20), I guess, but Thesis does nothing for that (I assume!), and the other three seem pointless.

Irresistable Dance is another high level Enchantment that I plan on getting, and Extend would be useful with it, as would Quicken which I'd only be able to use by getting my Thesis in that spell. Possibly.

Greater Shadow Evocation/Conjuration are also possibilities - if that's allowed. Being able to apply that bonus to such a wide variety of spells may not be. If it is... maybe I want to get Shades instead, then. Except that I can't get Shades until after Thesis. So Greater Shadow Evocation, then, probably. That seems like my best choice so far.

Other than that, I'm looking at spells that aren't really "appropriate". *shrug* Actually, considering that I'm getting four Metamagics and Rapid Metamagic, I may want to re-think my spell selection... not a lot of these see much improvement from them...

[dragonfan6490]

Me personally, I would go for the Sorcerer. There's alot less book keeping and its really simple for a newb to pick up. All you have to do is decide which spells you want to know and go after it. Think Vivi or another spellcasting character from Final Fantasy.

[DragoonWraith]

Me personally, I would go for the Sorcerer. There's alot less book keeping and its really simple for a newb to pick up. All you have to do is decide which spells you want to know and go after it. Think Vivi or another spellcasting character from Final Fantasy.
Heh, thanks, but we're way past that point now. :smalltongue: Thanks for the advice, though, I do appreciate it. Always good to find a community which is cool with newbs.

[Keld Denar]

Hey, we were all noobs once...I just like crunching characters. Its really become a hobby of mine. I dunno, I was explaining it to a girl yesterday. I was telling her about how much fun it is to try to get the best results out of a character, to be the best at what it does (within reasons....see Practical Optimization). Then she asked if it was kind of like shopping, and trying to find the best shoes and accessories to go with the right outfit without looking too flaunty or exagerated.

I was like...errrmmmm....yea.....something like that....

:P

[DragoonWraith]

:smallamused:That's the best explanation of shopping that I've ever heard. Hell of a lot better than my girlfriend has managed. I don't get shopping.

[Keld Denar]

Since you have some non-core feats, you might want to consider Able Learner from Races of Destiny. It lets you buy all skills as class skills. That means that with Human Paragon levels, the skills you take there will essentially be class skills forever. Take that instead of Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes and skip Loremaster. That'll save you goodly bit of skill points while still allowing you to keep the skills you really want (Bluff, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, UMD, etc) maxed out for only 1 skill point each.

Also, it'd probably be pretty good if you lost a few redundant Enchantments. Scintilating Pattern is...meh. Mass Charm...charms are kinda hit/miss. You can't really use them in combat because of the inherant hostility. Thus, if you don't cast it before fighting actually breaks out, its not terribly useful. And if you don't get ALL of your foes, the ones who resist can help break their allies out. I dunno, I just don't really like charms. They just don't pack the punch that Dominate does.

[ericgrau]

Scintillating pattern seems like it still may be useful because it has no save, though the HD cap limits it a bit. So maybe, maybe not.

Charm person/monster can still be used during combat, they just get a +5 to their save... and only if you don't get it off early enough. The advantage of a mass spell over a single target one is that you'll at least charm some enemies. Against a mass of weak enemies your chance of affecting each will drop from around 75% to around 50% due to the +5, unless you can get it off out-of-combat (against a BBEG, that's ~25% to ~5%, and not such a great idea). Since the charmed creatures perceive your actions in the most favorable way possible, say that you're just trying to settle this peacefully and that you're only defending yourself against the charmed creatures' allies. Get your party to mix in some nonlethal damage with the lethal (you can still knock someone out even with only partial nonlethal) and you may even be able to get the charmed creatures to help with their own nonlethal. If that seems plausible but still not something the monster would normally do, it's an opposed charisma check to nudge him. And you're a sorcerer. Oh, and the circlet of persuasion applies. Combine this with bluff and/or diplomacy for sorting things out afterwards and you can really get somewhere.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Good to keep in mind. Scorching Ray seems pretty sweet.

By the way, the DM OK'd Seeker's Chant (specifically "That spell looks thoroughly bad. You can have it. :D"), Reactive Counterspelling ("if you want"), and Rapid Metamagic ("powerful, but not broken").

As for Arcane Thesis, the DM was... hesitant. He's familiar with Thesis abuse, and said that's not going to happen (not that I intended it, which he knows; sort of a "but still" scenario). He mentioned Enervate specifically (though it was in reference to some kind of cheese where a Quickened Maximized Twin Rayed Chained Enervate somehow was a 5th level spell). We kind of left it at "we'll worry about it when I hit 18".

So then... Considering my character is focusing on Bluff, Knowledge, and Illusion and Enchantment spells, what "appropriate" spells would be best with Thesis? The DM didn't say it had to be particularly appropriate, but I'd rather it be. I'm planning on Heighten, Extend, Empower, and Quicken.

The Charms/Dominates are probably the most appropriate, but I think my Metamagics are useless with those. Heighten helps all of them but Dominate Monster (which I can't get a Thesis in anyway, since all my level 9 spells are on 19 and 20), I guess, but Thesis does nothing for that (I assume!), and the other three seem pointless.

Irresistable Dance is another high level Enchantment that I plan on getting, and Extend would be useful with it, as would Quicken which I'd only be able to use by getting my Thesis in that spell. Possibly.

Greater Shadow Evocation/Conjuration are also possibilities - if that's allowed. Being able to apply that bonus to such a wide variety of spells may not be. If it is... maybe I want to get Shades instead, then. Except that I can't get Shades until after Thesis. So Greater Shadow Evocation, then, probably. That seems like my best choice so far.

Other than that, I'm looking at spells that aren't really "appropriate". *shrug* Actually, considering that I'm getting four Metamagics and Rapid Metamagic, I may want to re-think my spell selection... not a lot of these see much improvement from them...

Depends on the metamagics you are getting

I cannot suggest Silent Spell enough for you. I know my GM loves to toss things that cast Silence at me to get me to shut up. Even cast it area effect to bypass the whole will save thing. Sure, you are casting at +1 CL, but at least you can still cast.

Also, you want to get those Charm spells off easier? Invisibility + Silent Spell. Your targets never even knew a spell had been cast at them.

Heighten Spell simply lets you blow higher level slots for a higher DC on the resist. This is how you bag a BBEG with a Charm, even at higher levels.

Extend Spell is probably not too useful for you, it only doubles the duration. Generally, that is not an issue.

Reach Spell might be valuable to you if you want to cast all those touch spells at a range of 30'. Pretty handy to combo with Chain Spell for group-buffing

Speaking of Chain Spell, it's an extremely handy spell. Basically, you not only hit primary targets, you ALSO get secondary targets. So Charm Person + Chain Spell = Mass Charm Person. This can help you free up some useful spells known slots at higher levels. Oh, and Chain Spell + Greater Magic Weapon = millions of gold in savings on only getting +1 weapons of x, y, and z while swinging as +5 weapons of the above enhancements.

Persist Spell is a bugger. On the one hand, a personal spell now has a duration of 24 hours. Like Mirror Image. On the other hand, +6 CL bites. Now, you can Thesis this to make it less painful, and there is another feat which reduces the cost of a specific metamagic feat by one (minimum of +1) that you can also apply to Persist to take some sting out as well. However, it is very potent.

Now here is the cheeze that goes with Persist that you should probably consider avoiding: It also works with spells that have a fixed range. Like, say, a spell which you Reached for a fixed range of 30'. So you can persist a Reach Invisibility onto an ally, who will remain invisible until he attacks. With Thesis and the feat which specifically reduces the cost of a metamagic feat by +1 (minimum +1), you can actually Persist a Reach Greater Invisibility. Then Chain it. For the entire party being invisible for the whole day. Even after attacking. Yea, that's crack, and I wouldn't suggest doing it. However, normal uses of Persist is to make your rounds/level self-buffs last all day long, and is perfectly usable.

[DragoonWraith]

Since you have some non-core feats, you might want to consider Able Learner from Races of Destiny. It lets you buy all skills as class skills. That means that with Human Paragon levels, the skills you take there will essentially be class skills forever. Take that instead of Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes and skip Loremaster. That'll save you goodly bit of skill points while still allowing you to keep the skills you really want (Bluff, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, UMD, etc) maxed out for only 1 skill point each.

Also, it'd probably be pretty good if you lost a few redundant Enchantments. Scintilating Pattern is...meh. Mass Charm...charms are kinda hit/miss. You can't really use them in combat because of the inherant hostility. Thus, if you don't cast it before fighting actually breaks out, its not terribly useful. And if you don't get ALL of your foes, the ones who resist can help break their allies out. I dunno, I just don't really like charms. They just don't pack the punch that Dominate does.
Well, the reason I'm bothering with Paragon and skills at all is in order to get Loremaster. Mostly because I want to not-level-as-Sorcerer as much. I wouldn't take the lost caster level from Paragon otherwise. Taking Able Learner would be good and would fit well flavor-wise, but would defeat the purpose of Adaptive Learning entirely, plus I am very much not full of feats.

As for Scintillating Pattern and Mass Charm... neither are currently on my planned list. Scintillating Pattern became Irresistable Dance, Mass Charm... My 5th and 6th level spells got moved around a lot, actually. Any changes in that area are tricky because of qualifying for Archmage...


Scintillating pattern seems like it still may be useful because it has no save, though the HD cap limits it a bit. So maybe, maybe not.
The HD cap seems to make it not as worthwhile. Took Irresistable Dance, instead, like I said.


Charm person/monster can still be used during combat, they just get a +5 to their save... and only if you don't get it off early enough. The advantage of a mass spell over a single target one is that you'll at least charm some enemies. Against a mass of weak enemies your chance of affecting each will drop from around 75% to around 50% due to the +5, unless you can get it off out-of-combat (against a BBEG, that's ~25% to ~5%, and not such a great idea). Since the charmed creatures perceive your actions in the most favorable way possible, say that you're just trying to settle this peacefully and that you're only defending yourself against the charmed creatures' allies. Get your party to mix in some nonlethal damage with the lethal (you can still knock someone out even with only partial nonlethal) and you may even be able to get the charmed creatures to help with their own nonlethal. If that seems plausible but still not something the monster would normally do, it's an opposed charisma check to nudge him. And you're a sorcerer. Oh, and the circlet of persuasion applies. Combine this with bluff and/or diplomacy for sorting things out afterwards and you can really get somewhere.
Interesting. Will consider it.


<quotes need to have text in between or they get removed>
I love your Joker guide, by the way.


Depends on the metamagics you are getting

I cannot suggest Silent Spell enough for you. I know my GM loves to toss things that cast Silence at me to get me to shut up. Even cast it area effect to bypass the whole will save thing. Sure, you are casting at +1 CL, but at least you can still cast.

Also, you want to get those Charm spells off easier? Invisibility + Silent Spell. Your targets never even knew a spell had been cast at them.
OK, Silent Spell I like the look of. More than Extend. Will take. Need to have Invisibility for that latter trick, but I want to get that in there somewhere.

Is Still Spell also valuable? If I were to take Still/Silent/Eschew Materials, the only spell I wouldn't be able to cast no matter what would be Permanent Image. Tempting... except I may never need it. I have plenty of things without Material or Focal requirements, so probably wouldn't bother with Eschew. Teleport, Irresistable Dance, and Time Stop are non-somatic - Teleport's probably enough to get out of whatever situation has me not moving...


Heighten Spell simply lets you blow higher level slots for a higher DC on the resist. This is how you bag a BBEG with a Charm, even at higher levels.

Extend Spell is probably not too useful for you, it only doubles the duration. Generally, that is not an issue.
Sound reasonable. Heighten was specifically pointed out as "This is why Sorcerers don't need higher level versions of things"


Reach Spell might be valuable to you if you want to cast all those touch spells at a range of 30'. Pretty handy to combo with Chain Spell for group-buffing
I currently have only one spell I'd be trying to touch someone else with (Irresistable Dance), and I'd have Arcane Reach by that point. Even among buffs, it's only Mage Armor, Fly, and Teleport. Not sure.


Speaking of Chain Spell, it's an extremely handy spell. Basically, you not only hit primary targets, you ALSO get secondary targets. So Charm Person + Chain Spell = Mass Charm Person. This can help you free up some useful spells known slots at higher levels. Oh, and Chain Spell + Greater Magic Weapon = millions of gold in savings on only getting +1 weapons of x, y, and z while swinging as +5 weapons of the above enhancements.
Greater Magic Weapon is something I've been trying to sneak in there somewhere. Tricky. Anyway, Chain seems really cool, but as a non-Core Metamagic I need permission. Will look into that.


Persist Spell is a bugger. On the one hand, a personal spell now has a duration of 24 hours. Like Mirror Image. On the other hand, +6 CL bites. Now, you can Thesis this to make it less painful, and there is another feat which reduces the cost of a specific metamagic feat by one (minimum of +1) that you can also apply to Persist to take some sting out as well. However, it is very potent.

Now here is the cheeze that goes with Persist that you should probably consider avoiding: It also works with spells that have a fixed range. Like, say, a spell which you Reached for a fixed range of 30'. So you can persist a Reach Invisibility onto an ally, who will remain invisible until he attacks. With Thesis and the feat which specifically reduces the cost of a metamagic feat by +1 (minimum +1), you can actually Persist a Reach Greater Invisibility. Then Chain it. For the entire party being invisible for the whole day. Even after attacking. Yea, that's crack, and I wouldn't suggest doing it. However, normal uses of Persist is to make your rounds/level self-buffs last all day long, and is perfectly usable.
This is interesting. Persist Haste, Persist Fly, Persist Arcane Sight, Persist Mage Armor. Might be worthwhile. But my DM very specifically stated that he will not allow Arcane Thesis to stack with any other Metamagic penalty-reducers. Even +5 CL means the above are three 8 spells and a 6 spell. That's half my level 8 spells. And I like my level 8 spells. Worse if it's +6 and those are level 9...

So I want to have a discussion on my feats. I get 10 total (7 from levels, 1 from being Human, 1 each from Paragon and Loremaster), but four are burned getting PrCs (two each of Skill and Spell Focus). I'm also required to get 3 Metamagics (or Crafting feats) before Loremaster - which means Quicken, which I cannot use until after Rapid Metamagic, cannot be one of the three. Assuming I do take Rapid Metamagic and Quicken, I get 1 more Feat - at 18. Is Quicken the right call here, considering how few Feats I have available? If not, is Rapid Metamagic still worth it? Which three Metamagic feats (other than Quicken) are best? I'm currently thinking Heighten, Empower, and Silent. And what's best for my final Feat?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, there IS a way to get Quicken Spell before Rapid Metamagic, however it is non-core. PhB II variant, loose the Familiar to cast spontaneous metamagic without spending extra time, however you can only do it 1+Int Mod number of times per day. This at least qualifies you for Quicken earlier

Another metamagic feat in the SRD you may want is Repeat Spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#repeatSpell) For a +3 SL, you get to have the same spell cast again the next round for free. It's like a delayed-blast quicken, only without eating another spell slot for the repeated spell. Very handy for laying down covering fire and battlefield control spells en masse.

Still Spell really isn't that valuable to you. Dimension Door/Teleport doesn't have any somatic components, which gets you out of any situation where you would want to cast a spell Stilled. It is primarily useful to Gish builds who want to cast spells in full plate.

Also, Mage Armor is obsolete. +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt costs 5k and gives a +5 armor bonus to AC, all day long, without any Arcane Spell Failure Chance. Grab Shield instead. Even better, grab Shield if you want to Persist it. Flat immunity to any and all Magic Missiles for all day long, and the +4 Shield bonus to AC doesn't hurt either.

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, there IS a way to get Quicken Spell before Rapid Metamagic, however it is non-core. PhB II variant, loose the Familiar to cast spontaneous metamagic without spending extra time, however you can only do it 1+Int Mod number of times per day. This at least qualifies you for Quicken earlier
Hmm... 1+Cha mod would be a lot nicer; that would start at 4 and eventually hit 7. 1+Int will only be 2. Hard to say whether or not I'm going to want to Metamagic as a standard action more than twice a day... It's useful for more than just Quicken. Considering the rather wide variety of Metamagic that I'm looking at, I think I'll want Rapid Metamagic anyway. Plus the bonus save, Alertness, and eventually Imbue Familiar with Spell are all pretty good. Thoughts?


Another metamagic feat in the SRD you may want is Repeat Spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#repeatSpell) For a +3 SL, you get to have the same spell cast again the next round for free. It's like a delayed-blast quicken, only without eating another spell slot for the repeated spell. Very handy for laying down covering fire and battlefield control spells en masse.
Aha. That is interesting. Now I have lots of possible Metamagic that I want. Hm.


Still Spell really isn't that valuable to you. Dimension Door/Teleport doesn't have any somatic components, which gets you out of any situation where you would want to cast a spell Stilled. It is primarily useful to Gish builds who want to cast spells in full plate.
Yeah, that was the conclusion I came to.


Also, Mage Armor is obsolete. +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt costs 5k and gives a +5 armor bonus to AC, all day long, without any Arcane Spell Failure Chance. Grab Shield instead. Even better, grab Shield if you want to Persist it. Flat immunity to any and all Magic Missiles for all day long, and the +4 Shield bonus to AC doesn't hurt either.
As I don't see Twilight Mithral anywhere in the SRD, I'm not sure I can count on finding that in any dungeons or shops. Plus Mage Armor can be cast on allies, and lasts 60x as long... meaningless with Persist, but then it's costing a level 7 slot...

OK, so desirable Metamagic: Heighten, Silent, Empower, Quicken, Repeat, Chain, and Persist. That's seven, I can get at most five - six if I don't get Quicken and Rapid Metamagic (or if I go with the variant above and don't get Rapid).

At level 3, my character has Heighten and Silent (which I could probably change since my character hasn't used them yet; they're still just notes on the character sheet at this point).

I need to get another with either my level 6 feat or my Paragon feat (which also happens at level 6) - the other of which pretty much has to be Spell Focus if I want Archmage on time. I was originally going to go Empower, but I don't have a particularly large number of Empower-able spells (10 + possibly Shadow Conj/Evoc), though Enervation, Disintegrate, EBT, and Greater Dispel Magic are all very solid choices for that. Notably, at level 6, Ray of Enfeeblement is my only one (though I get Scorching Ray at 8)... At the same time, I'm having a hard time envisioning how and with what spells I would use Repeat or Chain on. Like, which spells benefit especially from those Metamagics. Getting Persist would be ridiculous because I don't get a level 6 slot until 13. Even for Chain/Repeat, 3rd spells are a level away, and 4th spells (so I can Chain or Repeat something useful) are three levels away...

Get Rapid Metamagic at 9, and Quicken (probably) at 12. My Loremaster and level 15 feats have to be the other Spell Focus and Spellcraft Focus, so I can get Archmage at 16. That leaves level 18 for one last Metamagic.

[lsfreak]

Twilight is in MIC, BoED, and PHBII (sidebar in Duskblade section), if any of those are available. Also, you need Extend Spell in order to get Persist.

[Starbuck_II]

As I don't see Twilight Mithral anywhere in the SRD, I'm not sure I can count on finding that in any dungeons or shops. Plus Mage Armor can be cast on allies, and lasts 60x as long... meaningless with Persist, but then it's costing a level 7 slot...

Mithral is from DMG: reduces ASF by 10% (besides other benefits).
Twlight is from BoED and MIC. +1 enhancement.

Both on Chain Shirt are awesome.


You could also take 1 level in Complete Warrior class Spellsword: reduces ASF by 10%

You don't need both Spellsword and Twlight: one or the other (unless you are wearing Mithral Breastplate)

[DragoonWraith]

BoED, MIC, PHB2, and Complete Warrior are all not available. The general requirement for non-Core stuff so far has been "can you find it online somewhere free?" - hence Rapid Metamagic, Reactive Counterspelling, and Arcane Thesis, all of which exist on WotC's site in some form (primarily little tables). Seeker's Chant came from CrystalKeep's spell lists. Chain Spell I can only find in forum posts, which means I might have trouble using it, but Feats are generally pretty simple so it might not be a problem.

Spellsword's not in WotC's excerpt from Complete Warrior, which means that's not going to happen; classes are too complicated to attempt to use without the full details. Twilight doesn't appear in the PHB2 excerpt, and neither the Magic Item Compendium nor the Book of Exalted Deeds (I did get the right books for your abbreviations, right?) have any excerpts on the site, plus the availability of it would be up to the DM even if we were using those books. I could ask, but I'd somewhat doubt it.

Further, Mithral, which is in the SRD, only reduces ASF by 10%. Chain Shirts have 20% ASF; I'm not really interested even in a 10% ASF. Still, it's an interesting option I wasn't aware of before. Now I'm considering a Light Mithral Shield or Mithral Buckler at some point... But the +1,000 gold is a bit beyond my means at this point. *shrug* But since I can get a shield and not an armor, Mage Armor looks even better now. Yes?

[Bluebeard]

Considering the rather wide variety of Metamagic that I'm looking at, I think I'll want Rapid Metamagic anyway. Plus the bonus save, Alertness, and eventually Imbue Familiar with Spell are all pretty good. Thoughts?
I always grab Rapid Metamagic for just those reasons. And because I find Familiars incredible with the Fighter-Wizard and Rogue/Wizard builds I usually play.


OK, so desirable Metamagic: Heighten, Silent, Empower, Quicken, Repeat, Chain, and Persist. That's seven, I can get at most five - six if I don't get Quicken and Rapid Metamagic (or if I go with the variant above and don't get Rapid).
Repeat requires enemies to stand still, more or less.
Persist requires fixed range. That means it won't apply to much of anything on your list.

Chain is for Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation, Arcane-Reached buff spells & teleports... that sort of thing. With a spell list like yours, I use it often.

Order is more or less a matter of taste. But I wouldn't take heighten until 6th level. If that early.

If you can tweak levels you've already taken, it'll help in the long run to put Paragon 1 at level 1. The extra Skills will make everything easier. Especially turning Tumble, UMD or somesuch into a class skill.

[DragoonWraith]

I always grab Rapid Metamagic for just those reasons. And because I find Familiars incredible with the Fighter-Wizard and Rogue/Wizard builds I usually play.
Good to know.


Repeat requires enemies to stand still, more or less.
Persist requires fixed range. That means it won't apply to much of anything on your list.
OK, I think I'll probably pass on those.


Chain is for Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation, Arcane-Reached buff spells & teleports... that sort of thing. With a spell list like yours, I use it often.
Interesting. Yeah, I want Chain.


Order is more or less a matter of taste. But I wouldn't take heighten until 6th level. If that early.
Unfortunately, none of the Metamagics are particularly good this early but I have to take them early. I could take Spell Focus early instead, but I won't have a particularly large number of Enchantments or Illusions early. Still, I may be using Charm Person a lot early... Hmm...


If you can tweak levels you've already taken, it'll help in the long run to put Paragon 1 at level 1. The extra Skills will make everything easier. Especially turning Tumble, UMD or somesuch into a class skill.
Heh, that's not going to happen.

I was going to take Bluff as my Adaptive skill. I'm only getting 4 levels of Sorcerer, so I lose it as a class skill early - plus I'm getting 9 levels of Loremaster, who has UMD as a class skill anyway (a fact which I intend to take advantage of). But Tumble? First time anyone's mentioned it. It seems pretty good, except I at least hope to avoid being particularly close to enemies most of the time...

EDIT: OK, so now my Feats look like this:

1: Knowledge: Arcana Focus
1: Enchantment Focus (Human)
3: Silent Spell
6: Chain Spell
6: Heighten Spell (Paragon)
9: Rapid Metamagic
12: Quicken Spell
14: Illusion Focus (Loremaster Secret)
15: Spellcraft Focus
18: ???

Spell Penetration seems somewhat interesting. I have a handful of no-SR spells, but it might be nice to have.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

BoED, MIC, PHB2, and Complete Warrior are all not available. The general requirement for non-Core stuff so far has been "can you find it online somewhere free?" - hence Rapid Metamagic, Reactive Counterspelling, and Arcane Thesis, all of which exist on WotC's site in some form (primarily little tables). Seeker's Chant came from CrystalKeep's spell lists. Chain Spell I can only find in forum posts, which means I might have trouble using it, but Feats are generally pretty simple so it might not be a problem.

Spellsword's not in WotC's excerpt from Complete Warrior, which means that's not going to happen; classes are too complicated to attempt to use without the full details. Twilight doesn't appear in the PHB2 excerpt, and neither the Magic Item Compendium nor the Book of Exalted Deeds (I did get the right books for your abbreviations, right?) have any excerpts on the site, plus the availability of it would be up to the DM even if we were using those books. I could ask, but I'd somewhat doubt it.

Further, Mithral, which is in the SRD, only reduces ASF by 10%. Chain Shirts have 20% ASF; I'm not really interested even in a 10% ASF. Still, it's an interesting option I wasn't aware of before. Now I'm considering a Light Mithral Shield or Mithral Buckler at some point... But the +1,000 gold is a bit beyond my means at this point. *shrug* But since I can get a shield and not an armor, Mage Armor looks even better now. Yes?

It shouldn't be too hard to find the books at half-priced bookstore, since Monopolies of the Coast are strongly encouraging players to dump them at the 1/2 priced bookstore to get their 4e books...

Persist is good when either paired with Reach (for static range), or for buffs like Shield (complete immunity to magic missiles and +4 shield bonus to AC). Repeat Spell is good when paired with Solid Fog or Black Tentacles to hold opponents in place, then Repeated Blastomancy to eliminate them with extreme prejeduce.

Best defense? Mirror Image. Beats any Mage Armor with an ugly stick. And this is the single reason why you want Persist as well, because it is normally rounds/level, but with Persist, can last all day long. I'd rather have a flat 12.5% chance of being hit than jacking up my AC against certain attacks. It works against touch attacks (which mage armor doesn't), and is probably worth 40+ AC equivalent worth of odds of opponents missing.

[DragoonWraith]

It shouldn't be too hard to find the books at half-priced bookstore, since Monopolies of the Coast are strongly encouraging players to dump them at the 1/2 priced bookstore to get their 4e books...
Mm, but rules of the game. We're playing online, so we're only using the things we can all see online.


Persist is good when either paired with Reach (for static range), or for buffs like Shield (complete immunity to magic missiles and +4 shield bonus to AC). Repeat Spell is good when paired with Solid Fog or Black Tentacles to hold opponents in place, then Repeated Blastomancy to eliminate them with extreme prejeduce.
Hmm... interesting. I do have a bit of "you're not moving for a while". Good idea. Maybe I should stick Hold Person back in there...


Best defense? Mirror Image. Beats any Mage Armor with an ugly stick. And this is the single reason why you want Persist as well, because it is normally rounds/level, but with Persist, can last all day long. I'd rather have a flat 12.5% chance of being hit than jacking up my AC against certain attacks. It works against touch attacks (which mage armor doesn't), and is probably worth 40+ AC equivalent worth of odds of opponents missing.
When you put it that way... wow. OK. I had Mirror Image, then it found it's way off the list. I'll try to get it back.

My 2nd level spells:
Glitterdust (4)
Detect Thoughts (5) (need for Loremaster)
Scorching Ray (7) (only damage spell I have until Disintegrate)
Invisibility (9)

Thoughts?

And would you then recommend this:
Arcana Focus (1)
Enchantment Focus (1, Human)
Silent Spell (3)
Heighten Spell (6)
Repeat Spell (6, Paragon)
Rapid Metamagic (9)
Quicken Spell (12)
Illusion Focus (14, Loremaster)
Spellcraft Focus (15)
Persist Spell (18)

[ericgrau]

If you still want extend spell for your lower level spells, you can grab a rod of lesser extend for not too much gold.

Silent spell may be great for the person who suggested it, but it depends on whether or not the DM is tossing silences at you all the time. I've also heard of a player who grabbed gloves of arrow snatching because their DMs had archers ready attacks to disrupt their spells all the time. Or a ring of freedom of movement and/or combat casting / skill focus (concentration) to stop grappling. I took wall of force because - among other reasons - I had a DM sending an anti-magic field apprentice at us every fight. Etc. Or casters that just plain dominate b/c their DMs don't know or use any anti-caster tactics at all. Ideally DMs would use them all and yet not go overboard on any one. What actually happens depends on your campaign.

IMO keep empower spell at later levels (8++) since you can apply it to both ray of enfeeblement and scorching ray. False life is another handy spell to empower if you're looking for more applications. Especially if you're gonna get into melee for that irresistable dance. Or take another feat entirely. 2-3 spells is a bit limited. I just mean to take something you'll actually use often. If your DM does toss silences left and right, then ok take silent spell.

[DragoonWraith]

If you still want extend spell for your lower level spells, you can grab a rod of lesser extend for not too much gold.
Yeah, I'm not getting Extend.


Silent spell may be great for the person who suggested it, but it depends on whether or not the DM is tossing silences at you all the time. I've also heard of a player who grabbed gloves of arrow snatching because their DMs had archers ready attacks to disrupt their spells all the time. Or a ring of freedom of movement and/or combat casting / skill focus (concentration) to stop grappling. I took wall of force because - among other reasons - I had a DM sending an anti-magic field apprentice at us every fight. Etc. Or casters that just plain dominate b/c their DMs don't know or use any anti-caster tactics at all. Ideally DMs would use them all and yet not go overboard on any one. What actually happens depends on your campaign.
Yeah, I have absolutely no idea what to expect in that area. But I was also thinking that it could be useful to apply to Charm Person for a more subtle Charm. Ahhh, I don't know what to do!


IMO keep empower spell at later levels (8++) since you can apply it to both ray of enfeeblement and scorching ray. False life is another handy spell to empower if you're looking for more applications. Especially if you're gonna get into melee for that irresistable dance. Or take another feat entirely. 2-3 spells is a bit limited. I just mean to take something you'll actually use often. If your DM does toss silences left and right, then ok take silent spell.
Well, see above for thoughts. Chain, Repeat, Persist are also contenders. As are Silent and Empower. But I wouldn't be going into melee for Irresistable Dance - I get Arcane Reach the level before Dance. At this point, Heighten and Quicken are the only ones that have been pretty consistently recommended... but neither's been suggested for level 3. Which is problematic, because it means I don't know which one to pick for level 3, and I need to make that decision very soon.

[Keld Denar]

I would get Empower Spell as your 3rd level feat. It won't be useful for you until at level 6 (when you can Empower RoEnfeeblement), and from 8 on you can Empower Scorching Ray for a bit o' fiery death on command.

Up to you though.

[mostlyharmful]

Yeah, I'm not getting Extend.


Well, see above for thoughts. Chain, Repeat, Persist are also contenders. As are Silent and Empower.

Unfortunately Extend is a prereq for Persist, it's also not a bad choice for third level feat since you can use your second level slots to extend things like mage armour to all day sooner than you get the free cash to splash on a rod of lesser extend and long term buffs at level four without extend tend to crap out half way through the day.

[Seffbasilisk]

Take the Planning Domain and you get Extend Spell for free.

[DragoonWraith]

I would get Empower Spell as your 3rd level feat. It won't be useful for you until at level 6 (when you can Empower RoEnfeeblement), and from 8 on you can Empower Scorching Ray for a bit o' fiery death on command.

Up to you though.
Unfortunately Extend is a prereq for Persist, it's also not a bad choice for third level feat since you can use your second level slots to extend things like mage armour to all day sooner than you get the free cash to splash on a rod of lesser extend and long term buffs at level four without extend tend to crap out half way through the day.
Ah, so many choices! My current feeling is that "sort of" like Persist, and I "sort of" like Extend, but... not an awful lot. Empower/Chain/Repeat seems better than Extend/Persist/something, in general. I'm not a huge fan of getting Empower so early, though, either. Drr.

But then Extend/Repeat/Persist seems good because I can hold things for so long and then make with the Repeating. Ah!

Well, it will be a long time before I get the third Metamagic. Mostly, it seems to come down to Persist vs. Chain for me...

But then I still kind of like Silent. Boo. Impossible to know if it's something I'm going to need often or never...


Take the Planning Domain and you get Extend Spell for free.
Uh... how exactly am I taking any Domain as a Sorcerer?

[The Glyphstone]

Twilight can be found online too, in Crystalkeep's Magic Weapons And Armor section, so don't discount it just yet. You'll still have to get approval for it, but it's an option at least.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Even without Silences being tossed about, Silent Spell is still very powerful to tandem with a form of Invisibility, because it lets you remain silent and unseen even during casting. With Greater Invisibility, you won't betray your presence with verbal components to make a Listen check to find your general area, so they don't even have a square to attack at 50% miss chance.

This is also how you prevent the +5 bonus on Charms in a Hostile Situation. You move in while invisible, then Silent Charm Monster. Since he wasn't aware of your presence, he's not recognizing you as being hostile. Sure, you show up, but by that time, he's already your best friend, and who wouldn't want their best friend to show up?

[DragoonWraith]

Even without Silences being tossed about, Silent Spell is still very powerful to tandem with a form of Invisibility, because it lets you remain silent and unseen even during casting. With Greater Invisibility, you won't betray your presence with verbal components to make a Listen check to find your general area, so they don't even have a square to attack at 50% miss chance.

This is also how you prevent the +5 bonus on Charms in a Hostile Situation. You move in while invisible, then Silent Charm Monster. Since he wasn't aware of your presence, he's not recognizing you as being hostile. Sure, you show up, but by that time, he's already your best friend, and who wouldn't want their best friend to show up?
Yeah, this is the only reason I'm really interested in Silent Spell. It is so up this character's alley...

Plus, my allies would not mind this at all... especially the Rogue. Greater or regular, do you think? If I get Greater (4th level spells: Solid Fog [8], Enervation [9], Black Tentacles [11], Charm Monster [13]; I'm thinking EBT), I can replace Invisibility on my 2nd level spell list with Mirror Image, which is nice. Considering Invisibility was coming at level 9 anyway... just getting Greater seems to make sense.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, this is the only reason I'm really interested in Silent Spell. It is so up this character's alley...

Plus, my allies would not mind this at all... especially the Rogue. Greater or regular, do you think? If I get Greater (4th level spells: Solid Fog [8], Enervation [9], Black Tentacles [11], Charm Monster [13]; I'm thinking EBT), I can replace Invisibility on my 2nd level spell list with Mirror Image, which is nice. Considering Invisibility was coming at level 9 anyway... just getting Greater seems to make sense.

Greater Invisibility combos very well with Persist, although you need Thesis or some other way to reduce SL to pull it off. It is flat out all day long invisibility, no matter how many hostile acts you can take. You are completely immune to any and all encounters that are not permanently seeing invisible, which is why I still point it out to you as an option. It really is strong with a LOT of different spells on your list.

Definately go Greater. 2nd level has too many spells you are wanting, but there are fewer absolutely critical 4th level spells. Stoneskin is a trap, it costs too much to be worth adding as a Spell Known. Black Tentacles and Solid Fog are both very good, but you may want to choose one or the other, since they both do similar things. Dimension Door is handy, but Teleport is just next level, and you don't need them both. Confusion is a Save or Loose spell, but it is mind-affecting. Seriously, it might be right up your alley, though. Re-read it. Phantasmal Killer has TWO saves, AND is Mind-Affecting, so it has too many ways to NOT work. Enervation, however, is a MUST have.

So you have Black Tentacles/Solid Fog, Enervation, and... confusion. You've still got another slot you can afford to throw Greater Invisibility into, and that way you don't get revealed when you start screwing people over. You can charm a whole encounter by yourself before having to reveal yourself.

[DragoonWraith]

Greater Invisibility combos very well with Persist, although you need Thesis or some other way to reduce SL to pull it off. It is flat out all day long invisibility, no matter how many hostile acts you can take. You are completely immune to any and all encounters that are not permanently seeing invisible, which is why I still point it out to you as an option. It really is strong with a LOT of different spells on your list.
The +2 CL would be somewhat wasted with Greater Invis, though. Metamagic Focus would probably be better.


Definately go Greater. 2nd level has too many spells you are wanting, but there are fewer absolutely critical 4th level spells. Stoneskin is a trap, it costs too much to be worth adding as a Spell Known. Black Tentacles and Solid Fog are both very good, but you may want to choose one or the other, since they both do similar things. Dimension Door is handy, but Teleport is just next level, and you don't need them both. Confusion is a Save or Loose spell, but it is mind-affecting. Seriously, it might be right up your alley, though. Re-read it. Phantasmal Killer has TWO saves, AND is Mind-Affecting, so it has too many ways to NOT work. Enervation, however, is a MUST have.

So you have Black Tentacles/Solid Fog, Enervation, and... confusion. You've still got another slot you can afford to throw Greater Invisibility into, and that way you don't get revealed when you start screwing people over. You can charm a whole encounter by yourself before having to reveal yourself.
OK, that was more or less the conclusion I had come to. I think ditching EBT makes more sense.

On the subject of Teleport... How dumb would it be to not get it at 11, and wait til 14 for Greater Shadow Conjuration?

[ericgrau]

You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.




Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)


I'm afraid you're stuck on teleport. Based on the flavor text of shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, I'd question certain applications of shadow evocation like contingency as well. 'Cuz it's not a quazi-real shadow.

[DragoonWraith]

I'm afraid you're stuck on teleport. Based on the flavor text of shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, I'd question certain applications of shadow evocation like contingency as well. 'Cuz it's not a quazi-real shadow.
Oh hey. Did not see that. Will have to double-check that there aren't Conjurations that I want then...

At least Core RAW, Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, and Teleport Object are the only Conj/Evoc spells (under the appropriate level) that I cannot shadow.

[ericgrau]

Calling, healing and teleportation are the other 3 kinds of conjuration. AFAIK, healing only applies to cure spells and the like.

[DragoonWraith]

Calling, healing and teleportation are the other 3 kinds of conjuration. AFAIK, healing only applies to cure spells and the like.
I just read the SRD's description of all of the Conjuration Sorc/Wiz spells; Healing does not appear on any of them. You are right about Calling, though - I had noticed that Gate has it, missed that (Lessar) Planar Binding also has it. So I won't be able to get those. Minor point there, though; I've mostly decided to avoid getting into much summoning. I do intend to try it out at some point, probably Malconvoker style, but not this character.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The biggest reason why you do not want Shadow Conjuration si because it allows SR and grants a Will save to spells that normally don't allow either one, making it much less useful.

[DragoonWraith]

That's... interesting. I assumed I wanted them for the versatility; the Focus in Illusion and high Cha, I was thinking, would mean that I could get past the Will saves most of the time... as for SR, really? I didn't realize that. Oh, I see... Does that mean SR comes into play twice for spells that allow it? Once for Shadow Conj/Evoc, and again for the spell? Ouch...

But the really interesting thing is... I'm not sure I want any of those spells terribly much. Scorching Ray seems likely to do me for blasting until Disintegrate, and then I get Finger of Death... Forcecage and Grasping Hand look solid-ish but not amazing. Contingency I could simply get for real... Cloudkill and Acid Fog might have been somewhat useful but Solid Fog should do. Hmm. Though, getting Contingency when I could get Greater Shadow Evocation that would allow me to do so much more seems... desirable... I'd get Contingency earlier, but not massively... unless I got it with my first or second 5th spell, which I don't really want to do...

I'm not even sure I'd know what to do with Contingency if I had it, anyway...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's... interesting. I assumed I wanted them for the versatility; the Focus in Illusion and high Cha, I was thinking, would mean that I could get past the Will saves most of the time... as for SR, really? I didn't realize that. Oh, I see... Does that mean SR comes into play twice for spells that allow it? Once for Shadow Conj/Evoc, and again for the spell? Ouch...

But the really interesting thing is... I'm not sure I want any of those spells terribly much. Scorching Ray seems likely to do me for blasting until Disintegrate, and then I get Finger of Death... Forcecage and Grasping Hand look solid-ish but not amazing. Contingency I could simply get for real... Cloudkill and Acid Fog might have been somewhat useful but Solid Fog should do. Hmm. Though, getting Contingency when I could get Greater Shadow Evocation that would allow me to do so much more seems... desirable... I'd get Contingency earlier, but not massively... unless I got it with my first or second 5th spell, which I don't really want to do...

I'm not even sure I'd know what to do with Contingency if I had it, anyway...

The standard powergame tactic is Contingency Celerity, which grants you a free standard action. This is generally used to cast the spell you need to get out of the trouble which triggered the contingency.

Spells like Solid Fog don't allow a save, and don't permit SR to interfere... with Shadow Conjuration, they would. It makes a "No Save, you just suck" spell into a "Will save or suck, but only in a limited area", which makes it worse than Slow. So you blow a 7th level spell (Greater Shadow Conjuration) to produce a 4th level effect (solid fog) that is nerfed to the point where it would be better to cast a 3rd level spell (Slow). How is that an effective use of magic?

Besides, 7th level has Mordikain's Magnificent Mansion Love Shack. It's like Rope Trick's bigger brother without the hassle of having to shinny up a rope, and with efficient staff that comes entailed with the property! While not directly combat effective, it gives you a 'reset button' on your spells. When you run low, pop your MMM and take a nap, then come back out refreshed and renewed for the next day of murder and mayhem.

Greater Teleport is also a 7th level spell, and one you should 'trade up' for.

Forcecage is a trap. It costs 1500 gp per casting. Use Greater Shadow Evocation instead. While it grants a Will save (if he makes the save, the forcecage vanishes) it doesn't cost components, and like you said... with the sky-high saves on your illusion spells, it's not going to be easy to make.

Prismatic Spray is another good one, since you are a Sorcerer and not a Wizard who banned Evocation. Roll higher than a 3 and it's a Save or Loose effect. Roll an 8 and it could be TWO Save or Loose effects. In a Cone-shaped burst. Cone of LOSE!

Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity are also nice 7th level spells to have.

[DragoonWraith]

The standard powergame tactic is Contingency Celerity, which grants you a free standard action. This is generally used to cast the spell you need to get out of the trouble which triggered the contingency.
Non-SRD, can't use it.


Spells like Solid Fog don't allow a save, and don't permit SR to interfere... with Shadow Conjuration, they would. It makes a "No Save, you just suck" spell into a "Will save or suck, but only in a limited area", which makes it worse than Slow. So you blow a 7th level spell (Greater Shadow Conjuration) to produce a 4th level effect (solid fog) that is nerfed to the point where it would be better to cast a 3rd level spell (Slow). How is that an effective use of magic?
Well, I actually know Solid Fog, and wouldn't Shadow that. I was talking about Acid Fog, a level 6 spell. Still, point taken. Also, looking at the list... I don't see a lot of Conjuration spells I'd like to have that I don't already know anyway. So Greater Shadow Conjuration is probably out.

Greater Shadow Evocation... It would mean losing a 5th-level spell if I wanted Contingency. Celerity's out, but that doesn't mean I won't want some Contingency. If I ditched Teleport and got Greater Teleport (see below), then I could get Contingency there...

As for the 8th level spell replacing it, Greater Shout and Sunburst seem the most interesting to me. Probably Sunburst. Thoughts?


Besides, 7th level has Mordikain's Magnificent Mansion Love Shack. It's like Rope Trick's bigger brother without the hassle of having to shinny up a rope, and with efficient staff that comes entailed with the property! While not directly combat effective, it gives you a 'reset button' on your spells. When you run low, pop your MMM and take a nap, then come back out refreshed and renewed for the next day of murder and mayhem.
Hmm... Possibly useful. I don't see much point to the servants, though, to be honest. Rope Trick could offer me about as much at CL 9... and I wasn't even planning on getting Rope Trick. The necessity of it is determined almost entirely by how hard the DM makes it for us to get a night's rest, of which there's no way of knowing...


Greater Teleport is also a 7th level spell, and one you should 'trade up' for.
Greater Teleportation seems like a pretty obvious choice, but I already have Teleport, don't want both, and am not taking any extra levels of Sorcerer with which to forget things. I was planning on Teleport at 11 and couldn't get Greater Teleport til 14. Is it worth waiting three levels for Greater?


Forcecage is a trap. It costs 1500 gp per casting. Use Greater Shadow Evocation instead. While it grants a Will save (if he makes the save, the forcecage vanishes) it doesn't cost components, and like you said... with the sky-high saves on your illusion spells, it's not going to be easy to make.

Prismatic Spray is another good one, since you are a Sorcerer and not a Wizard who banned Evocation. Roll higher than a 3 and it's a Save or Loose effect. Roll an 8 and it could be TWO Save or Loose effects. In a Cone-shaped burst. Cone of LOSE!

Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity are also nice 7th level spells to have.
I have Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity. Rev Grav is nice because it's no-SR; Finger of Death because it's die or damage, which I like.

Issues with Forcecage are noted.

Prismatic Spray... I have a fair number of save-or-loses. And a fair number of no-save you-sucks. Is there any particular reason why that one is better? Three of those are "just" damage, two of them kill any loot the enemy may have had... etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Non-SRD, can't use it.


Well, I actually know Solid Fog, and wouldn't Shadow that. I was talking about Acid Fog, a level 6 spell. Still, point taken. Also, looking at the list... I don't see a lot of Conjuration spells I'd like to have that I don't already know anyway. So Greater Shadow Conjuration is probably out.

Greater Shadow Evocation... It would mean losing a 5th-level spell if I wanted Contingency. Celerity's out, but that doesn't mean I won't want some Contingency. If I ditched Teleport and got Greater Teleport (see below), then I could get Contingency there...Well, you could get DimDoor at 4th level, skip Teleport, then go straight for Greater Teleport. It's worth the slot due to a lack of error chance.


As for the 8th level spell replacing it, Greater Shout and Sunburst seem the most interesting to me. Probably Sunburst. Thoughts?Greater Prying Eyes. It's True Sight... without components... and dozens of little spies running around and telling you exactly what is going to come up.

Greater Shadow Evocation. For mimicing Forcecage, Contingency, Force Wall, or any other Evocation-type spell you may want.

Mind Blank. If you get ANY 8th level, get this one. Immunity to mind-affecting and scrying. If you can get a way to cheapen Chain Spell down to a +1 SL, you can chain it to your entire party as well.

Dimensional Lock. Nothing is more annoying than your opponent teleporting away, laughing at you, only to return and kill you in your sleep, or when otherwise preoccupied. Heck, I remember one nasty critter decided to port out, then scry the party from a distance. When we were engaged in a fight for our lives, he teleported in right behind us and started ripping us from a different direction. Ouch. Also, usable while Time Stopped (since it is area effect), to combo with Forcecage and Cloudkill for a very obnoxious combo.

Telekenetic Sphere. Yea, a lot of people overlook this, but it is one of the most valuable defensive spells in the game. Simply drop it down on yourself, and move around to wherever you need to be. It doesn't block Line of Sight, so you can continue casting through it, although you are immune to physical damage.

Polymorph Any Object. Polycheeze at its worst. Turn a Dragon into a Lizard. Permanently. Or, turn yourself into something suitably annoying. One of my favorite combos is PAO the ground underneath an opponent into Lava. 20d6/round, and drop a Forcecage on top to cap it off so he can't get out.



Hmm... Possibly useful. I don't see much point to the servants, though, to be honest. Rope Trick could offer me about as much at CL 9... and I wasn't even planning on getting Rope Trick. The necessity of it is determined almost entirely by how hard the DM makes it for us to get a night's rest, of which there's no way of knowing... Basically, the servants and the food are there gratis. You get your rest, a back massage, the kinks worked out of your shoulder, and a full 9 course banquet, while waited on hand and foot by invisible servants. Talk about standards of living!


Greater Teleportation seems like a pretty obvious choice, but I already have Teleport, don't want both, and am not taking any extra levels of Sorcerer with which to forget things. I was planning on Teleport at 11 and couldn't get Greater Teleport til 14. Is it worth waiting three levels for Greater? If you spent a 4th level spell on Dimension Door, then probably. Explain to the party why you want to wait for Greater, and why you can't trade out Teleport for Greater when you gain 7th level spells.


I have Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity. Rev Grav is nice because it's no-SR; Finger of Death because it's die or damage, which I like. Finger of Death also does not affect some things, because it is a death effect. Any cleric able to cast 4th level spells will yawn in your face, being completely immune thanks to Death Ward. Undead will thank you for casting it on them.


Prismatic Spray... I have a fair number of save-or-loses. And a fair number of no-save you-sucks. Is there any particular reason why that one is better? Three of those are "just" damage, two of them kill any loot the enemy may have had... etc.

It's a fun spell, because it is an area effect Save or either Damage or Dead. It's your only Area Effect Save or Dead that doesn't cost a BUNCH in diamond dust. Plus, it looks cool. Still, not really a 'must have', you've got to have your other bases covered as well.

[DragoonWraith]

Well, you could get DimDoor at 4th level, skip Teleport, then go straight for Greater Teleport. It's worth the slot due to a lack of error chance.
Ah, not a bad idea... but not sure which 4th level spell I'd ditch. I'm getting Solid Fog, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, and Charm Monster. The first two are extremely good, the third you recommended yourself and I like having, and the fourth is just appropriate to the character.


Greater Prying Eyes. It's True Sight... without components... and dozens of little spies running around and telling you exactly what is going to come up.
I had certainly considered that. Just sort of frustrating to get another Divination spell when I already have three I don't really want.


Greater Shadow Evocation. For mimicing Forcecage, Contingency, Force Wall, or any other Evocation-type spell you may want.
See, this is what I meant, this is why I was getting it to begin with.


Mind Blank. If you get ANY 8th level, get this one. Immunity to mind-affecting and scrying. If you can get a way to cheapen Chain Spell down to a +1 SL, you can chain it to your entire party as well.
I know this, don't worry, I've got it. But Chain Spell at +1 isn't going to happen.

The Real Question is when. Currently I'm getting it on level 20, at which point it almost doesn't matter because I don't imagine we'll be playing much at level 20. Irresistable Dance and (currently) Greater Shadow Evocation are my other two 8th spells (at 19 and 17, respectively).


Dimensional Lock. Nothing is more annoying than your opponent teleporting away, laughing at you, only to return and kill you in your sleep, or when otherwise preoccupied. Heck, I remember one nasty critter decided to port out, then scry the party from a distance. When we were engaged in a fight for our lives, he teleported in right behind us and started ripping us from a different direction. Ouch. Also, usable while Time Stopped (since it is area effect), to combo with Forcecage and Cloudkill for a very obnoxious combo.
Mm... powerful, if I have a lot of teleporting foes. Difficult to gauge. Considering I only get three 8th-level spells...


Telekenetic Sphere. Yea, a lot of people overlook this, but it is one of the most valuable defensive spells in the game. Simply drop it down on yourself, and move around to wherever you need to be. It doesn't block Line of Sight, so you can continue casting through it, although you are immune to physical damage.
Hm... this one's really cool. I like the idea of floating myself around. Heh.


Polymorph Any Object. Polycheeze at its worst. Turn a Dragon into a Lizard. Permanently. Or, turn yourself into something suitably annoying. One of my favorite combos is PAO the ground underneath an opponent into Lava. 20d6/round, and drop a Forcecage on top to cap it off so he can't get out.
Yeah... I don't really want to go there. I haven't taken any of the morph spells and I'm pretty much avoiding it. Disguise or Alter Self would be nice, but I have other things to do with those spell slots.


Basically, the servants and the food are there gratis. You get your rest, a back massage, the kinks worked out of your shoulder, and a full 9 course banquet, while waited on hand and foot by invisible servants. Talk about standards of living!
Heh, considering I have a trait that gives -2 to Survival and prevents me from using it as an untrained skill, it may be fitting. But I'm also not playing a character who is overly interested in material wealth or luxury. He's lived his life as lower-middle class but comfortably because he doesn't have overly expensive taste (and because he got the money he had as a con-artist, which means he didn't really have to work for it).


If you spent a 4th level spell on Dimension Door, then probably. Explain to the party why you want to wait for Greater, and why you can't trade out Teleport for Greater when you gain 7th level spells.
Oh, I'm sure they'll be cool with whatever. It's a pretty casual group.


Finger of Death also does not affect some things, because it is a death effect. Any cleric able to cast 4th level spells will yawn in your face, being completely immune thanks to Death Ward. Undead will thank you for casting it on them.
I'm aware of the Undead, but I assumed those immune to Death effects would still take the damage (as if they had saved). Is this incorrect?


It's a fun spell, because it is an area effect Save or either Damage or Dead. It's your only Area Effect Save or Dead that doesn't cost a BUNCH in diamond dust. Plus, it looks cool. Still, not really a 'must have', you've got to have your other bases covered as well.
Ah, AOE. Had not considered that. Plus rolling is fun. Hmm, hmm, hmm. Not a bad idea, by any means. I could use more AOE. Especially since I am going for Mastery of Shaping.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah, not a bad idea... but not sure which 4th level spell I'd ditch. I'm getting Solid Fog, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, and Charm Monster. The first two are extremely good, the third you recommended yourself and I like having, and the fourth is just appropriate to the character. I'd skip the Charm Monster, personally, but that's just my taste. Those are all really solid spells, I don't know what to suggest here.



I had certainly considered that. Just sort of frustrating to get another Divination spell when I already have three I don't really want. Yea, qualifying for Loremaster as a Sorcerer really, REALLY sucks[/quote]


The Real Question is when. Currently I'm getting it on level 20, at which point it almost doesn't matter because I don't imagine we'll be playing much at level 20. Irresistable Dance and (currently) Greater Shadow Evocation are my other two 8th spells (at 19 and 17, respectively). When will you need to be immune to mind-affecting and scrying? If you find your party (or any weak-willed people in the party) are getting hit a lot by charms, fears, confusions, and the like... grab this FIRST. Drop it on the Party Tank, who normally has a low Will save, and you won't have to worry about your buddy turning into another opponent.



Mm... powerful, if I have a lot of teleporting foes. Difficult to gauge. Considering I only get three 8th-level spells... Again, this is one of those spells that you need to get the feel of your GM to determine use. If you find opponents teleporting, using Ethereal or Astral to dodge, or something of that nature, then it is worth it. Keep in mind, friendly fire... it will keep YOU from teleporting in that area as well.


Hm... this one's really cool. I like the idea of floating myself around. Heh. If you have any friends who play WoW, just say "Hey, could be worse... at least I'm not a Ret Pally". They'll get it. And laugh. And probably throw dice or books at you.


Yeah... I don't really want to go there. I haven't taken any of the morph spells and I'm pretty much avoiding it. Disguise or Alter Self would be nice, but I have other things to do with those spell slots. Don't blame you, but I thought I'd mention it.


Heh, considering I have a trait that gives -2 to Survival and prevents me from using it as an untrained skill, it may be fitting. But I'm also not playing a character who is overly interested in material wealth or luxury. He's lived his life as lower-middle class but comfortably because he doesn't have overly expensive taste (and because he got the money he had as a con-artist, which means he didn't really have to work for it). Consider it this way: You aren't living beyond your means, you are merely providing yourself those creature comforts that you simply do not wish to do without.


I'm aware of the Undead, but I assumed those immune to Death effects would still take the damage (as if they had saved). Is this incorrect? Nope, the damage is Negative Energy, so they're immune to that as well. Also makes them immune to Enervation. To kill Clerics quickly, I highly suggest Solid Fog and point your meat shield/charmed or dominated guy in it's direction. Failing that, area saturation with blastomancy. Their reflex save generally sucks, this is one of those few situations in which blasting works. In other words, Greater Shadow Evocation for Delayed Blast Fireball. It's still 80% 'real' if he makes his Will save.


Ah, AOE. Had not considered that. Plus rolling is fun. Hmm, hmm, hmm. Not a bad idea, by any means. I could use more AOE. Especially since I am going for Mastery of Shaping.

Yea, it's all kind of cracktackular good with Mastery of Shaping...

[DragoonWraith]

I'd skip the Charm Monster, personally, but that's just my taste. Those are all really solid spells, I don't know what to suggest here.
That was pretty much the conclusion I came to. But I feel as if convincing most monsters to do what I want shouldn't be hard, so Charm should be useful. Plus, like I said... I'm Focusing in Enchantment. I know, mind-immune stuff becomes a problem later, but that's what my illusion and conjuration are for.



Yea, qualifying for Loremaster as a Sorcerer really, REALLY sucks
It really wasn't that bad. I got a 0th-level spell that's awful (Seeker's Chant), another that is solid but I wasn't planning on getting (Detect Magic), a 1st level that's good but I might have chosen something else for (True Sight), and a 3rd that, again, is okay but not my top choice (Arcane Sight). The Skills were the big problem - I had to take Paragon to get those, which costs a caster level. But still... pure-Sorc bored me.


When will you need to be immune to mind-affecting and scrying? If you find your party (or any weak-willed people in the party) are getting hit a lot by charms, fears, confusions, and the like... grab this FIRST. Drop it on the Party Tank, who normally has a low Will save, and you won't have to worry about your buddy turning into another opponent.

Again, this is one of those spells that you need to get the feel of your GM to determine use. If you find opponents teleporting, using Ethereal or Astral to dodge, or something of that nature, then it is worth it. Keep in mind, friendly fire... it will keep YOU from teleporting in that area as well.
Heh, obvious, I should have figured that out. OK, will keep it in mind.


If you have any friends who play WoW, just say "Hey, could be worse... at least I'm not a Ret Pally". They'll get it. And laugh. And probably throw dice or books at you.
Heh, they'd have a hard time throwing anything at me (I'm at least 2000 miles from the nearest one), but I don't think any of them play WoW.


Don't blame you, but I thought I'd mention it.
Info is always good.


Consider it this way: You aren't living beyond your means, you are merely providing yourself those creature comforts that you simply do not wish to do without.
Oh, I know. I just... I dunno, doesn't seem right for the character. Hiring servants (or creating them through magical effort) would strike him as silly: why pay for someone to do something that you can convince them to do for free? That's how he operates.


Nope, the damage is Negative Energy, so they're immune to that as well. Also makes them immune to Enervation. To kill Clerics quickly, I highly suggest Solid Fog and point your meat shield/charmed or dominated guy in it's direction. Failing that, area saturation with blastomancy. Their reflex save generally sucks, this is one of those few situations in which blasting works. In other words, Greater Shadow Evocation for Delayed Blast Fireball. It's still 80% 'real' if he makes his Will save.
Right. So Greater Shadow Evocation is still a good idea. Check.


Yea, it's all kind of cracktackular good with Mastery of Shaping...
Hehe.

Well, I am still looking at Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Prying Eyes, Telekinetic Sphere, Mind Blank, Color Spray, and Irresistable Dance for my three 8th-level spell slots. Tough call.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That was pretty much the conclusion I came to. But I feel as if convincing most monsters to do what I want shouldn't be hard, so Charm should be useful. Plus, like I said... I'm Focusing in Enchantment. I know, mind-immune stuff becomes a problem later, but that's what my illusion and conjuration are for. Then just settle for Teleport, and don't bother with Greater


It really wasn't that bad. I got a 0th-level spell that's awful (Seeker's Chant), another that is solid but I wasn't planning on getting (Detect Magic), a 1st level that's good but I might have chosen something else for (True Sight), and a 3rd that, again, is okay but not my top choice (Arcane Sight). The Skills were the big problem - I had to take Paragon to get those, which costs a caster level. But still... pure-Sorc bored me. Yea, the knowledge skill prerequsites hurt hard.

Are you talking True Strike or True Seeing the 6th level spell? True Strike is pretty darn nifty, particularly when paired with Enervation. Detect Secret Doors can short-circuit a dungeon-run when used properly, and entirely in fitting with your character.


Heh, obvious, I should have figured that out. OK, will keep it in mind.


Heh, they'd have a hard time throwing anything at me (I'm at least 2000 miles from the nearest one), but I don't think any of them play WoW. To let you in on the joke, A Paladin in WoW is also derogatorily called a 'Bubble Boy', due to a spell they have which makes them temporarily immune. Generally, you will hear about 'bubble hearth', which is drop immunity, then use the Hearthstone to gate back to their home town before the immunity wears off.


Info is always good.


Oh, I know. I just... I dunno, doesn't seem right for the character. Hiring servants (or creating them through magical effort) would strike him as silly: why pay for someone to do something that you can convince them to do for free? That's how he operates. Cost? What cost? There's no expensive material component cost to cast MMM... still, I suppose if it isn't in character, it is a spell you can afford to miss.

Yet another use for Greater Shadow Evocation is to mimic Tiny Hut, which should suffice for your needs.



Right. So Greater Shadow Evocation is still a good idea. Check. Yea, it's all kinds of fun to play with an entire college with a single spell.



Hehe.

Well, I am still looking at Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Prying Eyes, Telekinetic Sphere, Mind Blank, Color Spray, and Irresistable Dance for my three 8th-level spell slots. Tough call.

Okay, let's examine these spells

Greater Prying Eyes = True Seeing + disposable scouts. You will never fall for the 'illusionary floor over a pit' trick, or 'the real door is an illusion of a wall, and the thing that looks like a door is really an illusion over a nasty trap' trick. Very nice utility, and with a duration of Hours/level, can be left up all day long

Telekenetic Sphere is good to 'bubble' with and protect yourself. While nifty looking, you've probably got better ways of protecting yourself physically in a fight. While it does have utility to 'bubble' an ally in trouble, this is a spell you can probably afford to skip if you had to.

Mind Blank is very useful, not only for you but for your party. Cast it on the party members with low Will saves, or even the entire party if you have enough spell slots. The immunity to scrying makes it particularly handy if the party is trying to ambush a caster. However, if you aren't facing a lot of mind-affecting stuff, it may be safely skipped over.

Irresistable Dance is a no-save-screwed, but it requires Touch. Unless you plan on getting Arcane Reach from Archmage, this spell can put you in more danger than it can get you out of. It's a very good spell, but you need to combo it with reach to be able to avoid killing yourself trying to get it off.

Color Spray is an Area Effect Save or Possibly Dead. With Mastery of Shaping, you have a good chance at killing (or at least seriously inconveniencing) several opponents without harming your allies in the process.

So, which ones you take will depend on which ones you plan on using or need to use. If you face a lot of mind-affecting or opponents who like to watch you on the Crystal Ball Network, then Mind Blank is your friend, otherwise not so much. If you can get some kind of Reach on Irresistable Dance, then you've got a no-save-just-suck spell which will be a staple of your repitoire, otherwise it's too dangerous to use. Greater Prying Eyes is just plain useful and utility. The little floating eyeballs can be used for all kinds of non-combat stuff, and nothing says you cannot cast Invisibility on the eyes to have invisible scouts with True Seeing on them floating about...

[DragoonWraith]

Then just settle for Teleport, and don't bother with Greater
Sad bit is, I don't really feel much need for the 7th-level spells.


Yea, the knowledge skill prerequsites hurt hard.
Yup.


Are you talking True Strike or True Seeing the 6th level spell? True Strike is pretty darn nifty, particularly when paired with Enervation. Detect Secret Doors can short-circuit a dungeon-run when used properly, and entirely in fitting with your character.
Well, I'm taking True Strike... as a 1st-level spell. True Seeing I want to take, but again, so limited. Detect Secret Doors is a maybe; I'd have to give up Mage Armor or Shield (depending on the status of Twilight enhancements for the game) for it, which is leaving me perhaps more squishy than I'd like...


To let you in on the joke, A Paladin in WoW is also derogatorily called a 'Bubble Boy', due to a spell they have which makes them temporarily immune. Generally, you will hear about 'bubble hearth', which is drop immunity, then use the Hearthstone to gate back to their home town before the immunity wears off.
Aha.


Cost? What cost? There's no expensive material component cost to cast MMM... still, I suppose if it isn't in character, it is a spell you can afford to miss.
Cost of the effort to learn it, mostly.


Yet another use for Greater Shadow Evocation is to mimic Tiny Hut, which should suffice for your needs.
Yup.


Yea, it's all kinds of fun to play with an entire college with a single spell.
Think that's the call.


Okay, let's examine these spells

Greater Prying Eyes = True Seeing + disposable scouts. You will never fall for the 'illusionary floor over a pit' trick, or 'the real door is an illusion of a wall, and the thing that looks like a door is really an illusion over a nasty trap' trick. Very nice utility, and with a duration of Hours/level, can be left up all day long
This is really solid.


Telekenetic Sphere is good to 'bubble' with and protect yourself. While nifty looking, you've probably got better ways of protecting yourself physically in a fight. While it does have utility to 'bubble' an ally in trouble, this is a spell you can probably afford to skip if you had to.
This would be so much fun, but yeah, doesn't fit.


Mind Blank is very useful, not only for you but for your party. Cast it on the party members with low Will saves, or even the entire party if you have enough spell slots. The immunity to scrying makes it particularly handy if the party is trying to ambush a caster. However, if you aren't facing a lot of mind-affecting stuff, it may be safely skipped over.
Aye. Only can cast six 8th-level spells per day, though, so getting the entire party with it would require all but one...


Irresistable Dance is a no-save-screwed, but it requires Touch. Unless you plan on getting Arcane Reach from Archmage, this spell can put you in more danger than it can get you out of. It's a very good spell, but you need to combo it with reach to be able to avoid killing yourself trying to get it off.
Will have Arcane Reach at that point. If I don't get Irresistable Touch, in fact, it's probably not worth getting Arcane Reach.


Color Spray is an Area Effect Save or Possibly Dead. With Mastery of Shaping, you have a good chance at killing (or at least seriously inconveniencing) several opponents without harming your allies in the process.
Mm, without it I'm not sure Mastery of Shaping is worth it, either. Don't have a lot of area effect things...


So, which ones you take will depend on which ones you plan on using or need to use. If you face a lot of mind-affecting or opponents who like to watch you on the Crystal Ball Network, then Mind Blank is your friend, otherwise not so much. If you can get some kind of Reach on Irresistable Dance, then you've got a no-save-just-suck spell which will be a staple of your repitoire, otherwise it's too dangerous to use. Greater Prying Eyes is just plain useful and utility. The little floating eyeballs can be used for all kinds of non-combat stuff, and nothing says you cannot cast Invisibility on the eyes to have invisible scouts with True Seeing on them floating about...
Considering I don't have True Seeing myself (at least, it's not currently on the list), Greater Prying Eyes are quite tempting. Same with Color Spray, I could use an AoE. But Irresistable Dance is so strong, and losing Greater Shadow Evocation causes me more problems...



By the way, as an aside... my character sucks at spells. He's cast Grease twice - and gotten two natural 1's. WTF.

Bluffing, on the other hand, he's rather good at. Talked a random NPC on the street out of 134 gp, convinced another that his sister (who doesn't exist) was dying on the other side of town, convinced a Paladin Half-Orc that he was on her side...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, I'm taking True Strike... as a 1st-level spell. True Seeing I want to take, but again, so limited. Detect Secret Doors is a maybe; I'd have to give up Mage Armor or Shield (depending on the status of Twilight enhancements for the game) for it, which is leaving me perhaps more squishy than I'd like...You misunderstand. I was talking about taking Detect Secret Doors *INSTEAD* of True Strike, as a Divination spell to be used as a prerequisite for Loremaster. Since you basically have to have 1 divination spell as a 1st level spell if you want to be able to qualify for Loremaster ASAP, you may as well make it one you can make more use out of if you aren't using True Strike.

[DragoonWraith]

Ah, I see what you mean. Hmm. Enfeeblement, Scorching, Finger of Death, and Irresistable Dance are my only attack spells requiring a Touch attack. I do have 14 Dex, so I'm not awful in that department. True Strike might not be worth it, I think you're right.

Any thoughts on swapping Arcane Sight for something? It really seems like the biggest weakness in my list right now... Tongues and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance don't seem so great, either, though. Crystal Keep lists a few more 3rd Divinations, but most are rather specific to certain campaigns (Discern Shapechanger, where Shapechangers are prevalent, Detect Portal, in games with lots of Plane movement)... the only one that stands out as not awful is Lesser Telepathic Bond, but that's still pretty poor. Which is all a shame, since there are non-Divination 3rd spells that I would be quite interested in.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah, I see what you mean. Hmm. Enfeeblement, Scorching, Finger of Death, and Irresistable Dance are my only attack spells requiring a Touch attack. I do have 14 Dex, so I'm not awful in that department. True Strike might not be worth it, I think you're right.

Any thoughts on swapping Arcane Sight for something? It really seems like the biggest weakness in my list right now... Tongues and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance don't seem so great, either, though. Crystal Keep lists a few more 3rd Divinations, but most are rather specific to certain campaigns (Discern Shapechanger, where Shapechangers are prevalent, Detect Portal, in games with lots of Plane movement)... the only one that stands out as not awful is Lesser Telepathic Bond, but that's still pretty poor. Which is all a shame, since there are non-Divination 3rd spells that I would be quite interested in.

Tongues does, indeed, suck. Clairvoyance/audience is okay for scouting, but likewise nothing worth writing home about.

Arcane Sight can be hella-abused. It's a personal spell, so it can be Persisted for all-day-long. This can let you spot invisible things (spot the aura from the invisible spell), be able to tell if something is a caster or not, and lets you get a general idea of what a magic item is with a Spellcraft check. Pretty darn useful, if ya ask me.

[DragoonWraith]

Alright, I feel a bit better about that, then.

Persist probably isn't going to happen. Mostly, I have to choose my Metamagic Feats early, and I just can't be too sure that I'll really want it... +6 is an awful lot. I can choose Persist at 18, but I'd have to get Extend early, and I don't want extend unless I'm also getting Persist, and I'm not really ready to make that decision.

I'm thinking Silent, Chain, Heighten, Quicken, and Repeat, possibly Twin.