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krossbow
2009-04-03, 09:45 PM
This is just a bit of musing. Now, i realize the reason why this works in the D&D universe, but just kicking the idea around a bit.



Undead are fueled by negative energy. This is one of the most basic tenets of their design, and is a very commonly understood one.

However, then when one starts to think about demons, it just kind of always hit a kink there for me. Demons, despite being forces of darkness and evil, still require positive energy for healing spells, and negative energy spells will harm them. They don't possess "unlife" like an undead, and presumably work the 'right' way, but still. It seems somewhat off that the epitome of evil in the universe still requires benefits from healing energy.




I may just be nitpicking; but it just always bothered me that incarnations of evil aren't harmed by energy generally regarded as "good" in nature, and harmed by energy regarded as evil in nature.

Anyone feel similiarly on the subject?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-03, 09:50 PM
Positive Energy is not Good, Negative Energy is not Evil. All living things are animated by Positive Energy, Undead are animated by Negative Energy. Demons count as living, therefore they are animated by Positive Energy. Alignment never enters into it.

Xuincherguixe
2009-04-03, 09:53 PM
Positive Energy is not Good, Negative Energy is not Evil.

... Except when it is. The rules are a little inconsistent.

krossbow
2009-04-03, 09:55 PM
Positive Energy is not Good, Negative Energy is not Evil. All living things are animated by Positive Energy, Undead are animated by Negative Energy. Demons count as living, therefore they are animated by Positive Energy. Alignment never enters into it.



When good Clerics stop channeling Cure spells and Evil clerics stop Channeling Inflict wounds spells, then i'll consent to that. As is, Which type of energy you channel is very clearly tied to alignment for many.

SurlySeraph
2009-04-03, 10:04 PM
When good Clerics stop channeling Cure spells and Evil clerics stop Channeling Inflict wounds spells, then i'll consent to that. As is, Which type of energy you channel is very clearly tied to alignment for many.

The way I see it, destructive (negative) energy is more often useful to evil beings, and creative (positive) energy is more often useful to good creatures. Neither is inherently good or evil, it's just a matter of which a given cleric will want to have available more often.

Innis Cabal
2009-04-03, 10:09 PM
... Except when it is. The rules are a little inconsistent.

Except that when they are either good or evil its through a spell not the nature of the "element" itself.

Collin152
2009-04-03, 10:14 PM
Well, Consecrate and Desecrate describe their effects as imbuing an area with, respectively, positive and negative energy. Good and evil effects differing only in which energy they tap.

krossbow
2009-04-03, 10:14 PM
It is open to interpretation of why a cleric channels his energy, and i will admit it is a valid point. A good cleric will most likely find positive energy to be more useful, and an evil one negative. That being said, with that interpretation, i think it would be good to change the cleric class to just require one to choose upon creating their character which type they'd rather channel. I for one, when i play lawful evil clerics, believe its better to heal your allies to go kill more foes than to get giggles out of melting a face, and would gladly have chosen to channel positive energy if it is a matter of usefulness.



With that interpretation, there'd be no issue with demons being healed by positive energy. Its just with the interpretation implied by other wording that exists that i had issues.

newbDM
2009-04-03, 10:37 PM
From what I understand, negative energy represents decay and atrophy. Positive energy represents creation and life.

It supposed to be a universal balance. Without positive energy there would literally be nothing. Without negative energy there would be way too much, and no more room for positive energy. Together they create change and progress.

The problem I see is that too many people instinctive relate evil with things such as destruction, death, and decay, while instinctively relating good with things such as creation, life, and order. This is one of the reasons I love the pre-4.0 four-part alignment axes. An evil lawful government/nation is just as interested in increasing it's people(s) population, creating cities and incredible monuments, keeping order, and similar things as a good lawful government/nation would be. The same could probably be said about chaotic evil communities vs. chaotic good ones, minus the construction and order parts. The key difference is that the evil ones are not as concerned about their neighbors' welfare.

It is just that a good 99.9% of the people on this forum were raised in communities/cultures/nations where we were taught to associate certain traits (exp.decay vs. growth, life vs. death, order vs. chaos, etc) with either good or evil.

I would go a step further and guesstimate that the vast majority of us come from communities/cultures/nations where we are also raised to associate said traits (decay vs. growth, life vs. death, order vs. chaos, etc) with either chaos or law. Can you guess which are associated with which?

Hat-Trick
2009-04-03, 10:43 PM
Ain't this an eye opener. I've been an advocate for benign Necromancy for a while and this actually gives some of my necromancers a new argument for the next paladin that attacks him in the library. Death isn't evil, if anything it's lawful. It does it's job, doesn't discriminate, and follows the laws of the universe. It's those chaotic bastards who mess with the system by resurrection that need a good thumping.

monty
2009-04-03, 10:44 PM
Look at the descriptions of the positive and negative energy planes. Notice that they have no alignment descriptors.

Collin152
2009-04-03, 10:48 PM
I am suddenly reminded of my idea of a line of spells and such that mixes Negative Energy with a little Shadowstuff. The idea being that neither are inherantly evil, but negative energy is hard to find completley good (Or, say, Exalted, :p) uses for and the plane of Shadow tends to be reeeally unnerving and creepy, but ultimatley neutral, thus creating edgy not-quite-evil spells.
I'll get back to you on that.

But to the original topic, I think some fiends should be composed of Negative energy, as it does, in fact, just make sense.

lsfreak
2009-04-03, 10:51 PM
Look at the descriptions of the positive and negative energy planes. Notice that they have no alignment descriptors.

Of course, then look at the fluff in BoVD (and to a lesser extent, Libris Mortis). Animating undead in its very nature is evil, because it brings negative energy into the world. :smallsigh:

krossbow
2009-04-03, 10:58 PM
Ain't this an eye opener. I've been an advocate for benign Necromancy for a while and this actually gives some of my necromancers a new argument for the next paladin that attacks him in the library. Death isn't evil, if anything it's lawful. It does it's job, doesn't discriminate, and follows the laws of the universe. It's those chaotic bastards who mess with the system by resurrection that need a good thumping.


The undead argument goes hand in hand somewhat with lichdom. Becoming a lich is stated to be an undeniably evil process, yet there exist in the forgotten realms some good liches.
Truth be told, lots of D&D fluff is contradictory on the subject.

Hat-Trick
2009-04-03, 11:16 PM
They need to clear up the "Liching Process." I've always thought it needed life sacrifices within the hundreds range lashed to death and then the imbibing of their blood, sweat, and tears, or something. Then they say "Oh and you can be good to," and now I have to visualize some sort of good version of all that. I like that it isn't evil anymore, but how do you become a lich? Good or Evil? The confusion, it ensues.

Collin152
2009-04-03, 11:32 PM
They need to clear up the "Liching Process." I've always thought it needed life sacrifices within the hundreds range lashed to death and then the imbibing of their blood, sweat, and tears, or something. Then they say "Oh and you can be good to," and now I have to visualize some sort of good version of all that. I like that it isn't evil anymore, but how do you become a lich? Good or Evil? The confusion, it ensues.

Oh, it's just a matter of submitting some paperwork. It's just that the only feasible way to get it done in any kind of timely manner involves the senseless slaughter of the millions of people in line ahead of you. Until now.

Agrippa
2009-04-04, 12:41 AM
The lich is not a thing of this world. Although it was once a living creature, it has entered into an unnatural existence. In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard.
Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state.

2nd edition ingredients for the lichdom potion:

2 pinches of pure arsenic
1 pinch of belladona
1 measure of fresh phase spider venom (less than 30 days old)
1 measure of fresh wyvern venom (less than 60 days old )
The blood of a humanoid killed by a phase spider
The blood of a humanoid killed by a mixture of arsenic and
belladona,
The heart of a humanoid killed by wyvern venom
1 quart of blood from a vampire or a human infected with
vampirism.

All this items must be mixed and drunk by the light of a full moon, when he drinks it, roll a percentile die:

01-10. No effect, start over.
11-40. Fall into coma for 2-7 days. The potion works.
41-70. Feebleminded until dispelled. The potion works.
71-90. Paralyzed for 4-14 days. 30% of 1-6 DEX pts lost
the potion works.
91-96. Permanently deaf, dumb or blind, only wish can regain
senses. The potion works.
97-00. Dead. Start over if you can be resurrected.

This is pretty much what it took to become a lich in 2nd edition. Wish Wizards of the Coast was this explicit on lichdom in 3rd edition?

TheOOB
2009-04-04, 12:52 AM
Fiends really don't have any connection to negative energy. It is just as deadly to them as it is to humans(barring the odd resistance), and positive energy heals them.

While true positive energy is easier to use to good ends, and negative energy is easier to use to evil ends, there is nothing good or evil about the energy itself. They are life and death, creation and destruction, they are no more good or evil then any of the other primal elemental forces in D&D(fire, water, earth, and air).

Note that both the plane of positive and negative energy are exceedingly dangerous to mortals.

ghost_warlock
2009-04-04, 01:03 AM
Fiends really don't have any connection to negative energy. It is just as deadly to them as it is to humans(barring the odd resistance), and positive energy heals them.

While true positive energy is easier to use to good ends, and negative energy is easier to use to evil ends, there is nothing good or evil about the energy itself. They are life and death, creation and destruction, they are no more good or evil then any of the other primal elemental forces in D&D(fire, water, earth, and air).

Note that both the plane of positive and negative energy are exceedingly dangerous to mortals.

Welcome to the positive energy plane! You now have cancer! =D

Welcome to the negative energy plane! You now have lupus! =D

Hat-Trick
2009-04-04, 01:12 AM
Positive plane is more heart explodes from sheer power being forced into it, which also goes with the you blow up part of being there.

Icewalker
2009-04-04, 01:28 AM
It's all relative stuff. The elements themselves aren't inherently either. In my campaign world, there are two major gods, one of whom is the god of Life, Time, Fire, and is borderline evil, worshiped by the corrupt oppressive nation. The other god is the god of Magic, the Ocean, and Death, and is more leaning towards good. Mostly this is just to break convention, because that almost always makes for more interesting set ups.

Anyways. Neither are inherently aligned, as many have said. I've heard an interesting idea for a necromancer who is entirely good, raising only bodies that are stone-to-fleshed statues, and not the actual dead.

Baalthazaq
2009-04-04, 01:37 AM
I wish people would stop repeating the rules to the original poster.

He knows what negative energy does. Repeating to him that demons get healed is pointless when he opens his post with
Demons, despite being forces of darkness and evil, still require positive energy for healing spells, and negative energy spells will harm them.

"Demons get healed by positive energy". He knows. He even goes so far as to explain he understands why that would be.

Having said all that, it makes more sense for demons to be healed by negative energy than undead. If you want to call negative energy "just destructive, but not inherently evil" then it should just blast away more of the thing.

It is made of exactly the same stuff as it was while living, yet it's doing the opposite thing to harming it now? If I raise someone somehow as an intelligent undead, how am I doing anything different from a resurrection?

This is not cut and dry at all.

krossbow
2009-04-04, 01:50 AM
While a horrifically painful way to deal with the situation, a mortal can easily circumvent problems arising from the positive energy plane by just knifing themselves in the spleen every few seconds.

Tam_OConnor
2009-04-04, 02:03 AM
Well, you can always do what I do. For certain fiends (especially nabassus and other things with negative energy or [death] effects), give them the [Necrotic] subtype.

Benefits: Healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy. Immune to physical ability damage and drain.

Just a simple way to switch them over.

Noble Savant
2009-04-04, 02:37 AM
It is made of exactly the same stuff as it was while living, yet it's doing the opposite thing to harming it now? If I raise someone somehow as an intelligent undead, how am I doing anything different from a resurrection?

This is not cut and dry at all.

Negative Energy is what gives the undead their twisted equivalent of life. That's the reason why it heals them. Not because it's evil and they are evil. They may be evil themselves, but the energy is simply another force.

A force that is the exact opposite of the positive energy which keeps most people alive. And a force that was tapped to bring them back to life.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-04, 02:47 AM
The whole 'positive/negative' energy thing is based on the old, almost instinctive (as we are not born with microscopes), but in our world unscientific, idea of a vital force. That something is intrinsically different about life and non-life and un-dead. This is described as 'positive' and 'negative' energy. One is as hostile to the other as oxygen is to an anaerobic organism. I personally don't see either as evil, as a strongly positive aligned plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveEnergyPlane) is quickly deadly even to 'positive' life. An example of too much of a good thing I would gather.They are merely the animating forces for different creatures. No more, no less. With all the connotations of 'positive' and 'negative', you might as well call them noughts and crosses, cheese and crackers, milk and tea.
In-game, the biggest advantage is that it allows the priestly type, usually with few strictly offensive spells, to kick absolute butt against their traditional fantasy foe, the undead, by simply doing what they do best, healing.

krossbow
2009-04-04, 02:48 AM
Actually, this reminds me of a debate me and my friends got into about Vampires.


We personally were of the mind that vampires should be susceptable to critical blows and the like, and possess organs in their physical structure so as to better blend in with mortals, differing from the Undead template that is stated for them.

This brought up the question of though, WHY were vampires undead then? In such a situation, they'd have working organs, hearts, blood, all the things normally seen in living humans.

The only real reason we were able to come up with was their life force; by being fueled by Negative energy, a natural anathema to life, the being would thereby be classified as undead and an enemy of normal living beings, irrelevent of other Characteristics.






By that definition that we use for vampires and undead, it would beg the question of the true definition of Evil outsider for their definition. As the current state is, it merely requires them to be corrupt and live on a plane differing from the material one, as "devils" and "demons" are just one of the different subtypes of outsiders.

BlueWizard
2009-04-04, 02:50 AM
Negative is merely the opposite of Positive.

Baalthazaq
2009-04-04, 03:26 AM
Negative Energy is what gives the undead their twisted equivalent of life. That's the reason why it heals them. Not because it's evil and they are evil. They may be evil themselves, but the energy is simply another force.

A force that is the exact opposite of the positive energy which keeps most people alive. And a force that was tapped to bring them back to life.

But then healing spells shouldn't be healing. You're channeling positive energy into someone and it all becomes very metagamey. "I'm giving this person 20 hitpoints" rather than "I'm curing wounds" or "inflicting wounds".

You're healing the body with positive energy, flesh, muscle and sinew are coming back together, bones are uncracking, bruises are evening over and regaining their colour.

Now a hero does the same to a zombie, and now positive energy cannot mend the same sinew, muscle, flesh and bone. Even if this is the same person as it was last round but has been the victim of Demise Unseen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/demiseUnseen.htm) or something.

I was also speaking specifically to the Negative = Destructive, Positive = Creative crowd.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-04, 03:47 AM
But then healing spells shouldn't be healing. You're channeling positive energy into someone and it all becomes very metagamey. "I'm giving this person 20 hitpoints" rather than "I'm curing wounds" or "inflicting wounds".

You're healing the body with positive energy, flesh, muscle and sinew are coming back together, bones are uncracking, bruises are evening over and regaining their colour.



Elan Vital meets Different strokes for Different folks. Maybe an un-metagame way to think of it, is that the positive energy is what positive energy life runs on. By adding more, locally, you accelerate drastically the bodies own healing mechanisms. The closest real world analogue is over pressure oxygen from an oxygen tent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_tent). Still thinking in-game here, maybe why zombies and such do that whole rotting corpse thing is that negative energy is not so much Evil, as alien. The weird effects come incompatibilities.

krossbow
2009-04-04, 04:02 AM
Doctor who here;


"REVERSE THE POLARITY!" :smallbiggrin:


All we need to believe is that doctor who is in charge of how the universe works and it all makes sense.

Pronounceable
2009-04-04, 07:18 AM
Hey, demons are people too! Live and let live...with positive energy!

hamishspence
2009-04-04, 08:38 AM
While not exactly demons, the Kir-lanans from faerun are helaed by nagative and harmed by positive energy.

They were born from the energies released from deaths of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul- these energies combined to produce them.

elonin
2009-04-04, 12:37 PM
Though these examples have been bought up before I'll stick by them. Undead are definative in this the vast majority exist on negetive energy and the only example of good undead are animiated by postive enegy. Also clerics are dictated as to which type of energy to use (only a few really get a choice). So while the RAW doesn't say it in so few words the de facto rule is that positive enegy is good and negetive energy is evil. There are also a few spells that have alignment and energy descriptors and I can't think of any examples of positive energy spells being labeled with the evil descriptor (or any examples of the reverse).

kamikasei
2009-04-04, 12:54 PM
the only example of good undead are animiated by postive enegy.

Ghosts can be good-aligned, and are animated by negative energy.

chiasaur11
2009-04-04, 01:02 PM
Ghosts can be good-aligned, and are animated by negative energy.

Can't there be good mummies too?

I'm a little rusty on this bit.

kamikasei
2009-04-04, 01:24 PM
Can't there be good mummies too?

I'm a little rusty on this bit.

You're correct; mummies, unlike most undead, are only "usually <evil>" rather than "always <evil>" (lawful evil in this case). More properly I should say that ghosts have no alignment restrictions at all, not even a specified bias in any direction.

monty
2009-04-04, 01:36 PM
Also, necropolitans - even the sample creature is neutral.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-04, 01:46 PM
Though these examples have been bought up before I'll stick by them. Undead are definative in this the vast majority exist on negetive energy and the only example of good undead are animiated by postive enegy. Also clerics are dictated as to which type of energy to use (only a few really get a choice). So while the RAW doesn't say it in so few words the de facto rule is that positive enegy is good and negetive energy is evil. There are also a few spells that have alignment and energy descriptors and I can't think of any examples of positive energy spells being labeled with the evil descriptor (or any examples of the reverse).
In 3.5, Inflict *amount* Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm) deals negative energy directly, and while it is under Necromancy, it isn't under the [Evil] descriptor.
As for evil undead, skelies and zombies make no sense, having as little minds as the stupidest constructs. But, for vampires, gholes and ghasts,always evil makes perfect sense as all three feed upon the sentient living to survive. Certain variation of liches can be good, without having to be reanimated by positive energy, though I don't own the book in question. But with mummy's and ghosts, the lack of alignment restrictions also makes sense . A mummy does not need to feed on the living to sustain it's undead existence, neither does a ghost. Except for the mindless undead, which honestly should be neutral like other creatures bereft of freewill, it seems the always evil undead are those that kill to keep going.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-25, 07:52 PM
The lich is not a thing of this world. Although it was once a living creature, it has entered into an unnatural existence. In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard.
Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state.

2nd edition ingredients for the lichdom potion:

2 pinches of pure arsenic
1 pinch of belladona
1 measure of fresh phase spider venom (less than 30 days old)
1 measure of fresh wyvern venom (less than 60 days old )
The blood of a humanoid killed by a phase spider
The blood of a humanoid killed by a mixture of arsenic and
belladona,
The heart of a humanoid killed by wyvern venom
1 quart of blood from a vampire or a human infected with
vampirism.

All this items must be mixed and drunk by the light of a full moon, when he drinks it, roll a percentile die:

01-10. No effect, start over.
11-40. Fall into coma for 2-7 days. The potion works.
41-70. Feebleminded until dispelled. The potion works.
71-90. Paralyzed for 4-14 days. 30% of 1-6 DEX pts lost
the potion works.
91-96. Permanently deaf, dumb or blind, only wish can regain
senses. The potion works.
97-00. Dead. Start over if you can be resurrected.

This is pretty much what it took to become a lich in 2nd edition. Wish Wizards of the Coast was this explicit on lichdom in 3rd edition?
I think a less detailed version of that is used for dracoliches (see Dracomiconon).


Having said all that, it makes more sense for demons to be healed by negative energy than undead. If you want to call negative energy "just destructive, but not inherently evil" then it should just blast away more of the thing.

It is made of exactly the same stuff as it was while living, yet it's doing the opposite thing to harming it now? If I raise someone somehow as an intelligent undead, how am I doing anything different from a resurrection?

This is not cut and dry at all.
Living things are powered by positive energy. Thus they are healed by it and harmed by its opposite, negative energy.
Living Unliving things are powered by positive negative energy. Thus they are healed by it and harmed by its opposite, negative positive energy.
The healing/harming occurs because of some mystic force assumed to exist, partly because of SPELLCASTERS and DEITIES and MAGICAL CREATURES and SO FORTH.
Demons (and, for that matter, devils; why are they being left out? They are as evil as demons! But I digress.) are living. "Thus they are healed by it and harmed by its opposite, negative energy." and not "healed by {negative energy} and harmed by its opposite, negative positive energy."
Oh...Darn it! After I typed this all up...Ah, well, Noble Savant nonwithstanding, I'll post my interpretation.

Khanderas
2009-06-26, 03:27 AM
I disagree with the OP and I feel the system makes perfect sense insofar:

* Positive and Negative energy are opposites.
* Anything living is healed by Positive energy and damaged by Negative.
* Anything undead is harmed by Positive energy and healed by Negative.
* Alignment has no application on the energy itself (you dont negate / take extra damage or heal more / less from being any alignment combination)

Therefore even outsiders coming from and made from "the essence of evil" or whatever fluff, counts as either living or undead and like native creatures dont have any alignment impacts regarding if they are targetted by Positive and Negative energy.

Now if you are using Holy and Unholy that is a different story, but then we stopped talking about neutral forces and into the devine / infernal.


A lich is always (Drizzit always anyway) evil after his conversion since the rituals that transform you include several unforgivenable blasphemies as well as irrevocably twist the undead creature into an evil self-serving mindset.
Unintelligent undead themselves are tools, tools rarely used for good I grant, but tools nonetheless and should therefore not be more evil then a sword (a sword has only one use and that is hurt stuff with it).

Fishy
2009-06-26, 03:41 AM
Not as weird as the Elementals, beings of pure elemental force who are nevertheless harmed by positive energy and healed by negative energy.

Except for the Necromentals from Libris Mortis.

And the gods who grant their clerics the ability to turn and rebuke elementals.

And now I'm not sure where I was going with this.

bosssmiley
2009-06-26, 04:25 AM
Can't there be good mummies too? I'm a little rusty on this bit.

Yep.

Positive and Negative energy have always varied in the good/neutral/evil Y/N stakes, depending on who's writing about them (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248). It's almost a bad joke.

Just to really confuse the whole Pos/Neg issue, during the 1E-2E era Mummies were actually powered by Positive Energy. The Ravenloft "Van Richten's Guide to the Ancient Dead" had a lot of fluff on how and why this worked.