Just saw The Lion King again for the first time in years.

[Copper8642]

That movie is so good. Like... it's better than most "kid's movies," I'd say it barely qualifies as a kid's movie. It's funny, it's well thought out, it's rather moving, good songs... I used to watch this all the time when I was younger. Now I remember why it was one of my favorite movies.

[Starscream]

Definitely one of Disney's finest. Of course, it has been mostly downhill since (at least as far as traditional animation goes), but it is still a masterpiece.

[X2]

You know I think the Lion King is the most overrated thing in existance. The first time I saw it I was expecting the very same awesomeness that people droned on and on about and by the time it ended I said "That was it?".

I don't know why exactly, everything about the movie is good but I just don't like it.

[Enlong]

Ah, I remember that movie fondly. One of my favorite things about it is that its video-game adaptation doesn't suck. That's a real feat.

[Sneak]

Yes, it was a great movie. Fantasia was amazing as well.

And Aladdin was pretty good, IMO.

[hamishspence]

the first big Disney renaissance- began with The Little Mermaid. Ended, possibly with Pocahontas (a little underwhelming for me)

[Icewalker]

I really loved all the old disney movies. Of course, Hercules and Pocahontas were historically inaccurate almost to the point of physical pain for a history buff, although I'm not much of one.

Still, they were good movies even with that. And all the others were fantastic. Mulan is still one of my favorite movies.

[snoopy13a]

Beauty and the Beast was the high point in my opinion.

I really don't like computer animation so the new stuff doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Saint Nil]

WALL-E wasn't too bad. Lion King is still one of the best in my opinion. The music is simply amazing, I love the characters, and the art-work is gorgeous.

[thegurullamen]

WALL-E wasn't too bad. Lion King is still one of the best in my opinion. The music is simply amazing, I love the characters, and the art-work is gorgeous.

WALL-E's part of the second renaissance which is largely shouldered by Pixar's "accept no crap" policy. But yes, the nineties were a high point for Disney. Hunchback, Lion King, Herc, Aladdin and the Best Picture Oscar-nominated B&tB. Great, great stuff. And now we have...talking CGI hamsters...

[T-O-E]

How come no one's mentioned 'The Fox and the Hound' yet?

[shadowxknight]

Sigh...Disney just don't make movies like Lion King anymore...

Although I just saw Ice Age: the Meltdown today, and I must say it has its charms.
Wall-E wasn't half bad either, although its many thinly-veiled commentaries would probably be lost on kids.

[kpenguin]

Although I just saw Ice Age: the Meltdown today, and I must say it has its charms.

Ice Age is Dreamworks, I believe.

[shadowxknight]

Oh.... I was just pointing out some good recent animated movies :smallredface:

But I guess animated movies as a genre just hasn't been as good as it was back in the 90's.

[kpenguin]

Kung Fu Panda.

[Ascension]

All Pixar movies are superior to all traditionally animated Disney movies. :smalltongue:

[shadowxknight]

Kung Fu Panda.

Touche
:smallsigh:

But I don't think that quite reaches the popularity of movies such as Lion King.

[RTGoodman]

I'll give you a quick hint about how the Lion King stands up to time so well. Go watch it (if you haven't recently), and then go read Shakespeare's Hamlet. Yeah, almost the exact same story. So much so that, at my suggestion, we watched The Lion King at the end of our Hamlet unit in AP English back in high school. :smallbiggrin:

I do still think it's one of Disney's best though - my favorite kids movies from my youth were The Lion King, Aladdin, and Pocahontas, with Mulan coming to the scene a little later and Robin Hood (the one with the foxes and such) being slightly older but a favorite on VHS.


Ah, I remember that movie fondly. One of my favorite things about it is that its video-game adaptation doesn't suck. That's a real feat.

Dude, that was the hardest freakin' game I ever played. It took me months or years to get past the Wildebeest Stampede (not to mention the ostrich riding thing earlier), and I NEVER beat the Elephant Graveyard. And I considered myself a really GOOD gamer in those days (for my age, at least). The only game I played that was harder was Battletoads.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

Pesonally, out of the Disney animated features boom of the 90's, which they've come to call the Disney Renaissance (starting with The Little Mermaid towards the end of '89 through Tarzan in '99), is one of my least favorite. In fact, out of the 10 so-called renaissance films, I'd only put it above Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Tarzan. I personally think that Aladdin is head and shoulders above any of the other Disney animated films of the era. Although these films are what many think of when Disney comes to mind, the real treasures and heyday of Disney was when they started making cartoon full length features. Starting in 1937 with their very first one in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. They then pumped out Pinocchio, Fantasia, Dumbo and Bambi in the span of two years. Then next really noteworthy film came with Cinderella in '50. and through the next three decades or so, they produced some very good and memorable movies such as Peter Pan , 101 Dalmations, Lady and the Tramp, and Sleeping Beauty. But my personal favorites from this time were didn't start until the mid 60's with a wonderful rendition of The Sword in the Stone, followed by The Jungle Book. Although after Aladdin, my next three favorites would have to be The Jungle Book, and two oft forgotten movies in The Rescuers and The Great Mouse Detective. Oh, and I almost forgot Emperor's New Groove is another one I really like.

Now on to the Pixar Films. I think the original Pixar movie in toy Story is still by far the best one. Although I also like Ratatouille, and Finding Nemo. I admittedly still have yet to see Cars and Wall-E. I don't particularly care for A Bug's Life (Dreamworks' Antz is a far better film), Monsters Inc., and The Incredibles. Even with the phenomenal actors lending their voices, I really never could get into Monsters Inc. too much, and I think The Incredibles is highly over-rated, and given far more credit than it deserves.

[Atelm]

The Great Mouse Detective

We have a winner. One of undoubtably the best Disney films ever made.

[Yarram]

I think all the -first- movies that disney makes are great, but all those crappy spinoffs totally ruin it for me.

[Lord Seth]

I'll give you a quick hint about how the Lion King stands up to time so well. Go watch it (if you haven't recently), and then go read Shakespeare's Hamlet. Yeah, almost the exact same story....how? Other than "evil uncle kills main character's father and is the new ruler" there's really not that much in common in terms of plot. Other than the aforementioned setup, the events of the play and the movie are very different. That's not to say that it wasn't inspired by Hamlet, but to say they have "almost the exact same story" is ridiculous.

I think The Lion King is overrated. While I do find Confused Matthew's review (http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Lion-King.php) (warning: Heavy language) of it is to be overly critical and several times left me with a "who cares?" feeling, he definitely points out some pretty big problems in it.

[Eldpollard]

I watched The Lion King fairly recently myself. It was in a fit of boredom that a friend and I decided to watch it whilst playing a drinking game. Such as every time someone talks about life being a circle etc. Needless to say I got horribly intoxicated and we gave up after about a bottle and a half of wine each and the film was only half way through.

[Starscream]

the first big Disney renaissance- began with The Little Mermaid. Ended, possibly with Pocahontas (a little underwhelming for me)

I agree Pocahontas was a bit of a downturn (as was Hercules), but I'd say that both Mulan and Hunchback were fantastic.


Ice Age is Dreamworks, I believe.

I think it's Fox, actually.

I have to admit, I'm loving all the stuff Pixar puts out. I've always been fascinated by cartoons, but have never been able to draw. However, I am pretty good with software such as Maya and 3D Studio (I'm a computer science student), so the idea of creating cartoons with tools like that has always appealed to me.

Dreamworks is a bit less grand, in my opinion. None of their movies have actually been bad, but apart from Shrek and maybe Kung Fu Panda, none have been truly great either.

Or, to put it another way:

http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/pixarvsdreamworks.jpg

[Dervag]

I'll give you a quick hint about how the Lion King stands up to time so well. Go watch it (if you haven't recently), and then go read Shakespeare's Hamlet. Yeah, almost the exact same story. So much so that, at my suggestion, we watched The Lion King at the end of our Hamlet unit in AP English back in high school. :smallbiggrin:That said, Disney completely re-adapted the characters' personalities, and the character dynamics are almost nothing like the ones that play out in Hamlet.

Coming up with a plot is the easy part. Populating your story with convincing characters that advance the plot in ways that keep the audience interested is much harder.

[DraPrime]

Oh wow, I don't think I've watched this movie since I was 5. That's 12 years...

I gotta go see it. Now.

[Tensu]

You know, When I was little I always saw Scar as just the big bad evil guy, but looking back, I realize he's actually the human.

In his attempt to end conflict between the lions and hyenas He creates a large population that the land cannot support. In his effort to end conflict and famine, he only made both worse by not considering the additional consequences of his actions. He is the tragedy of humanity in lion form.

[Jibar]

...how? Other than "evil uncle kills main character's father and is the new ruler" there's really not that much in common in terms of plot. Other than the aforementioned setup, the events of the play and the movie are very different. That's not to say that it wasn't inspired by Hamlet, but to say they have "almost the exact same story" is ridiculous.

Thank you.

The comparison between the Lion King and Hamlet is one of the few things to actually make me angry.
Hamlet does not work that way. At. All.

[Calamity]

I used to watch The Lion King daily, when I was about 6.

It was that good.

[Cristo Meyers]

Heh, that time period wasn't called the Disney Renaissance for nothing. Even the direct-to-video sequels of movies like Aladdin and Lion King were at least passable, if not good in their own right.

[Scorpina]

I'm never that quick to admit it, but The Lion King is pretty good, yeah.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you.

The comparison between the Lion King and Hamlet is one of the few things to actually make me angry.
Hamlet does not work that way. At. All.

I'll agree to that. While yes, Scar does kill Mufasa and take over the pride when Simba leaves, he's no Claudius. Simba is no Hamlet. When Hamlet was at Wittenberg, he wasn't partying with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. He was mourning for his father's death. Claudius at least made the pretense of being friendly with Hamlet. Scar doesn't marry Sarabi, like Claudius did. There's so many other things that separate The Lion King from Hamlet.

When I asked my parents what story The Lion King was based on (I'd only seen Disney films based on books or fairy tales up until then,) they said it wasn't based on anything, that it was an original story. Even though I'm old enough to know now that nothing is truly original, and that the movie has a very weak resemblance to Hamlet, it is still an excellent standalone story in its own right. It may not be based on Hamlet, but it doesn't have to be to be interesting and have it's own merit.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Heh, that time period wasn't called the Disney Renaissance for nothing. Even the direct-to-video sequels of movies like Aladdin and Lion King were at least passable, if not good in their own right.

I'll agree to that too. I actually like The Lion King II and The Return of Jafar. They didn't feel quite as crisp and polished as the first movies, but they had a life of their own. They felt like genuine continuations of the story rather than just a slap-dash project to cash in on the movie's fame.

[Mauve Shirt]

The Lion King is very good. :smallbiggrin: It's always been one of my favorite disney movies.
I thought it was funny when I realized that the first one was Hamlet, Lion King 2 was Romeo and Juliet, and Lion King 1/2 was Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

[Ascension]

Lion King 1/2 was Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

Is it really like R&G are Dead? I wouldn't think theatre of the absurd would translate all that well to children's animation.

That said, an animated Waiting for Godot would be pretty sweet.

[Lord Seth]

I'll agree to that. While yes, Scar does kill Mufasa and take over the pride when Simba leaves, he's no Claudius. Simba is no Hamlet. When Hamlet was at Wittenberg, he wasn't partying with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. He was mourning for his father's death. Claudius at least made the pretense of being friendly with Hamlet. Scar doesn't marry Sarabi, like Claudius did. There's so many other things that separate The Lion King from Hamlet.Exactly. Which is why I'm amazed anyone would say the plots are "almost the same". "Slightly the same" would be far more accurate.

For comparison, if you want to see a film that actually does have "almost the same" plot as a Shakespeare play, look at Throne of Blood (also known as Spider-Web Castle). No seriously, watch it. It's very good.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Some people only make the most obvious connections and forget the fine details.

[Ridureyu]

The fact that Simba's still alive at the end is a pretty big difference.

[Avilan the Grey]

I agree that Lion King is one of the best of that era. I always get goosebumps when viewing the intro (has to be played very loud).

Personal favorite (which I know is not that liked) is Lilo & Stitch. I just love that movie, plus the women are all drawn more or less normal-looking (extreme opposite: Ethno-Barbie aka Pocahontas).

Anyway, short list I guess, top five "After Mermaid" era:

Lilo & Stitch
Mulan
Lion King
The Great Mouse Detective
Aladdin

(all of these are extremely close)

Mixing in other animation though, it is clear that Disney is not the top player (and to make the point we expand from a top 5 to a top 15:

The Incredibles
Kung Fu Panda
Lilo & Stitch
Finding Nemo
Mulan
Lion King
Cars
Monsters Inc.
The Great Mouse Detective
Shrek
Shrek 2
Madagaskar
Aladdin
Ice Age
Ice Age 2

[Tengu_temp]

Ice Age


Am I the only one who thinks the biggest wall banger of this movie is when the "protagonists" basically kill a whole pack of dodos so they can steal an egg from them, and the movie plays it for laughs? Talk about good behaviour model for kids.

[Avilan the Grey]

(About Ice age) Am I the only one who thinks the biggest wall banger of this movie is when the "protagonists" basically kill a whole pack of dodos so they can steal an egg from them, and the movie plays it for laughs? Talk about good behaviour model for kids.

Well probably not. However I have no problems with it; after all all Dodos are dead, and most kids know that. To me it was the absolutely funniest scene in the movie.
Also, to be frank, I find the commond Disneyfication of animals a bigger problem really. When you read enough oppinions in the local paper where people thinks it is a horror that cats eat wild birds, or that hunting deer should be outlawed because it's cruel (because everyone knows that the wolves just politely asks the deer if it wants to die in it's sleep so they can eat it...) your brain starts to hurt after a while...

(That's another reason I like Lion King. They actually point out that they eat Zebras. Disney wuzzed out and made the main character eat bugs, but at least it's a step in th e right direction).

[Tengu_temp]

Well, if you have treated all talking animals as people in your movie before, don't be surprised that people will have issues if your "heroes" suddenly decide "hey, you don't want to give us that egg? F*ck you, we want it and will take it even if it means you'll all end up dead!" - this is little more than sociopathy in such case. And even with moral aspects aside, that scene didn't make me laugh and the movie already wasn't very funny.

And yeah, people using Disney movie standards for wildlife in RL are just facepalm-worthy.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Am I the only one who thinks the biggest wall banger of this movie is when the "protagonists" basically kill a whole pack of dodos so they can steal an egg from them, and the movie plays it for laughs? Talk about good behaviour model for kids.

But protagonists kill people all the time, are you worried about all random deaths or just ones among a species of bird that won't become extinct for 10,000 years?

[Tengu_temp]

But protagonists kill people all the time, are you worried about all random deaths or just ones among a species of bird that won't become extinct for 10,000 years?

But they don't kill innocent people. What these dodos did to them? Nothing. That doesn't look like protagonist material to me.

[Jack Squat]

But they don't kill innocent people. What these dodos did to them? Nothing. That doesn't look like protagonist material to me.

Well to be fair, the dodos took the watermelon (not egg) as the protagonists were about to get it. The crew was trying to get the kid fed, a more noble quest than hoarding 3 watermelons to try and last an entire species several thousand years.

Plus they basically killed themselves off (falling in the pit, running off the cliff). It's not like Sid was competent enough to actually dispatch them.

[Tensu]

Ah, ice age...

I would agree. The Dodos beat themselves. I mean, did anyone in the protagonist's party ever even attack?

I would say the funniest part of the movie was probably:

"No thanks, I choose life!"

"Then I suggest you take the shortcut!"

[Mewtarthio]

Let's not forget that the Dodos also destroyed two other melons through their incompotence. Plus, you could just as easily make the argument that the dodos were evil for refusing to give food to a starving child.

Now, taking the last melon might be considered evil, since that's all the food the dodos had left. However, the last female had already killed herself by that point, so the dodos' cause was moot anyway.

[Brewdude]

I'll give you a quick hint about how the Lion King stands up to time so well. Go watch it (if you haven't recently), and then go read Shakespeare's Hamlet. Yeah, almost the exact same story. So much so that, at my suggestion, we watched The Lion King at the end of our Hamlet unit in AP English back in high school.

Somehow, one of my classmates managed to convince our senior english teacher to show STRANGE BREW after reading Hamlet.:smallsmile:

[Tengu_temp]

Well to be fair, the dodos took the watermelon (not egg) as the protagonists were about to get it. The crew was trying to get the kid fed, a more noble quest than hoarding 3 watermelons to try and last an entire species several thousand years.

Plus they basically killed themselves off (falling in the pit, running off the cliff). It's not like Sid was competent enough to actually dispatch them.

Yeah, watermelon, not egg. Damn my horrible memory.

I know that the dodos basically killed themselves - however, it was a direct result of the good guys' actions, which they noticed but didn't care about in the slightest. And well, nothing says that the protagonists are somehow special and can reserve stuff for themselves - the dodos got the melon first, so it was theirs. "If you don't get things your way, then force it and don't care if it causes anyone's death" is not a lesson for a kids' movie. And I consider Ice Age to be a kids' movie because it failed to make me, an adult, laugh, so I'm apparently not its target audience. Y'know, it might also be the reason why I'm overly critical of this movie...

Hmm, this is getting quite offtopic. Let's hope nobody minds.

[TheEmerged]

I really loved all the old disney movies. Of course, Hercules and Pocahontas were historically inaccurate almost to the point of physical pain for a history buff, although I'm not much of one.

Still, they were good movies even with that. And all the others were fantastic. Mulan is still one of my favorite movies.

RE: the bolded part. Speaking as a history buff? Yes, it was. But for Pocahontas it was worth it just to see the native tribes not depicted as stupid, cowardly weaklings out to scalp everyone. Dangeorusly close to going to the other extreme, mind...

Speaking of physically painful though? We need to talk about your definition of the "old" Disney movies. "Snow White" is an old Disney movie. "Robin Hood" and "101 Dalmations" (animated) were old Disney movies. I was out of college by the time Hercules & Pocahontas came out... :smallredface:

So get off my lawn! :smallbiggrin:

[LurkerInPlayground]

So I heard about this awhile back, but somebody explain this to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimba_the_White_Lion#The_Lion_King_controversy
http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72AVvgRNf2Q

[Tensu]

"If you don't get things your way, then force it and don't care if it causes anyone's death" is not a lesson for a kids' movie.

And "let small children die of starvation" is?

[Fiery Diamond]

Dude, that was the hardest freakin' game I ever played. It took me months or years to get past the Wildebeest Stampede (not to mention the ostrich riding thing earlier), and I NEVER beat the Elephant Graveyard. And I considered myself a really GOOD gamer in those days (for my age, at least). The only game I played that was harder was Battletoads.

Agreed. I only beat the game twice in all the years I played it.




Quote:
The Great Mouse Detective

We have a winner. One of undoubtably the best Disney films ever made.

Oh yes.



Or, to put it another way:

http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/pixarvsdreamworks.jpg


This is the funniest thing I have seen in quite a while.


You know, When I was little I always saw Scar as just the big bad evil guy, but looking back, I realize he's actually the human.

In his attempt to end conflict between the lions and hyenas He creates a large population that the land cannot support. In his effort to end conflict and famine, he only made both worse by not considering the additional consequences of his actions. He is the tragedy of humanity in lion form.

You know, I never thought about that, but it's so true.


That said, an animated Waiting for Godot would be pretty sweet.

... That would be AWESOME!


RE: the bolded part. Speaking as a history buff? Yes, it was. But for Pocahontas it was worth it just to see the native tribes not depicted as stupid, cowardly weaklings out to scalp everyone. Dangeorusly close to going to the other extreme, mind...

Actually, I liked how both sides were depicted as having both good and bad (with the natives more good, but nevertheless...) and my favorite song is the "Savages" song. Such a good portrayal of the foolishness of war.


My favorite Disney is probably Mulan.

[Jack Squat]

Yeah, watermelon, not egg. Damn my horrible memory.

I know that the dodos basically killed themselves - however, it was a direct result of the good guys' actions, which they noticed but didn't care about in the slightest. And well, nothing says that the protagonists are somehow special and can reserve stuff for themselves - the dodos got the melon first, so it was theirs. "If you don't get things your way, then force it and don't care if it causes anyone's death" is not a lesson for a kids' movie. And I consider Ice Age to be a kids' movie because it failed to make me, an adult, laugh, so I'm apparently not its target audience. Y'know, it might also be the reason why I'm overly critical of this movie...

Hmm, this is getting quite offtopic. Let's hope nobody minds.

Tell me, what do you think of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dezXCuPk5_0) or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhKid2EmSA&feature=related)?

[TheFallenOne]

Kudos to all who mentioned Basil the Mouse Detective, best Disney movie ever. God, I loved that flick. When I was like 6 or 7 years old I even named our(new deceased) dog Tobi after the dog taxi in the movie.



Dude, that was the hardest freakin' game I ever played. It took me months or years to get past the Wildebeest Stampede (not to mention the ostrich riding thing earlier), and I NEVER beat the Elephant Graveyard. And I considered myself a really GOOD gamer in those days (for my age, at least). The only game I played that was harder was Battletoads.

Are we both talking of the Sega adaption? I got through that game when I was like 9 years old, though I admit that the second(!) level was really hard, it took me a lot of tries to figure that jumping puzzle out. And with figure out I mean try it again and again until I somehow get past it with sheer dumb luck. Well, luckily it's only the second level, so it's easy to get there again. Plus, it really motivated me not to die in the following levels :smallwink:

[Starscream]

The only part of the Lion King video game I ever had problems with was the blasted waterfall. You had to work your way up by jumping on logs, and they came completely at random so sometimes there really was no right answer.

It wasn't so much lethal as frustrating. You make about 30 jumps and realize you'd gained an inch of height. Then the next log simply wouldn't come and you'd end up back at the bottom.

And all so you could make it to the top to fight a moody orangutan that doesn't even appear in the movie.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So I heard about this awhile back, but somebody explain this to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimba_the_White_Lion#The_Lion_King_controversy
http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72AVvgRNf2Q

Surely it pretty much explains itself.

[kusje]

And "let small children die of starvation" is?

That isn't the alternative. We're talking about the perspective of the movie makers. They could have easily shown another scene.

[snoopy13a]

I think some people should realize that saying that "something is based off of X" doesn't mean that it follows the exact same plot.

The movie Clueless is based off of Jane Austen's novel Emma

The movie O Brother Where Art Thou is based off of Homer's epic poem The Odyssey

The movie My Own Private Idaho is based off of Shakespeare's play Henry IV part I

The play West Side Story is based off of Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juilet

The movie The Magnificient Seven is based off of the Japanese classic movie The Seven Samurai

The movie Cruel Intentions is based off of the French novel Les Liaisons dangereuses

The movie The Producers is based off of the play The Producers which is based off of the movie The Producers (I had to put that one in :smalltongue: )

None of these follow the storylines exactly. What The Lion King shares with Hamlet is the protagonist's uncle killing his father and taking charge. Obviously, there are significant differences such as the The Lion King has a happy ending while in Hamlet almost everyone dies.

[Tensu]

That isn't the alternative. We're talking about the perspective of the movie makers. They could have easily shown another scene.

Children know about death, pain, combat, war, and survival by first grade and know about sex and know most cuss words by fourth grade. I don't see why so many adults think it's their duty to "protect" the children. They already know, hiding it from them will only make you look arrogant.

Any kid who takes it the wrong way had deep-seated problems to begin with.

[Connington]

I've got to admit, even if I know exactly how wrong the mythology is, I still love Hercules.

[Avilan the Grey]

That isn't the alternative. We're talking about the perspective of the movie makers. They could have easily shown another scene.

Hey it was the funniest scene in the movie (and it was a funny movie). Besides, they also showed humans hunting (although no details was shown) and other predators stalking and killing. I like that they are not as Disneyfied as they could have been.

[Avilan the Grey]

I've got to admit, even if I know exactly how wrong the mythology is, I still love Hercules.

Besides, as pathetic as it sounds, Meg is actually, for being a Disney cartoon creation, hot. Unlike 99% of all other Disney women.

[Starscream]

Besides, as pathetic as it sounds, Meg is actually, for being a Disney cartoon creation, hot. Unlike 99% of all other Disney women.

She also comes off as genuinely tough and self sufficient, unlike even most modern Disney girls. I'd say Mulan and Esmerelda are the only other two.

I know Belle is supposed to be intelligent, what with the books and stuff, but where does it have any effect on the plot? I'm pretty sure the story would have played out exactly the same if she were an airhead.

I mean, even the 3 year old teacup was the one who figured out how to escape that cellar.

[Finn Solomon]

I've got to admit, even if I know exactly how wrong the mythology is, I still love Hercules.

I adored Hercules. My fave classic Disney movie along with The Little Mermaid and Lion King.

[DomaDoma]

I've got to admit, even if I know exactly how wrong the mythology is, I still love Hercules.

Ha, you should hear me carry on about Demeter and Persephone sometime. Riddled with lies of omission. Nah, what did it in for me was "Go the Distance", the most blatantly by-the-numbers hero song I've heard before or since. AND THEY KEPT DOING IT. I think I quit at some point where the bumbling minions were making me wince especially hard, but "Go the Distance" is what made me realize it was a terrible movie.

[Jibar]

I think some people should realize that saying that "something is based off of X" doesn't mean that it follows the exact same plot.

The movie O Brother Where Art Thou is based off of Homer's epic poem The Odyssey

The play West Side Story is based off of Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juilet

None of these follow the storylines exactly. What The Lion King shares with Hamlet is the protagonist's uncle killing his father and taking charge. Obviously, there are significant differences such as the The Lion King has a happy ending while in Hamlet almost everyone dies.

Those two examples however are proof of how you can term things based off. Both follow the plots closely, but not exaclty and offer original plots and ideas added onto that they are already emulating.
The Lion King and others are like it are more what I would call inspired by. A general idea is drawn from the source material, such as the uncle murdering the father, but other than that it is entirely original.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't think "evil uncle kills good father to become king" is unique enough to Hamlet to the degree that any work that includes it must be based off Hamlet no matter of differant the plot or characters are.

If I used the Osiris/Set story for the basis of a science fiction story (Isis creates Horus through cloning rather than putting Osiris back together to get pregnant by him), someone would be able to mistake my tale for being inspired by Hamlet even though its based off a tale 3000 years older.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't think "evil uncle kills good father to become king" is unique enough to Hamlet to the degree that any work that includes it must be based off Hamlet no matter of differant the plot or characters are.

Besides, all Shakespeare did was to rewrite the legend of Prince Amled, anyway. He barely bothered with changing the name of the main character...

[Avilan the Grey]

She also comes off as genuinely tough and self sufficient, unlike even most modern Disney girls. I'd say Mulan and Esmerelda are the only other two.

I know Belle is supposed to be intelligent, what with the books and stuff, but where does it have any effect on the plot? I'm pretty sure the story would have played out exactly the same if she were an airhead.

I mean, even the 3 year old teacup was the one who figured out how to escape that cellar.

Agreed, definitely.
Well Nani from Lilo & Stitch is if not heroic, at least not pathetic. She definitely tries to be a mother to her sister.

[thegurullamen]

She also comes off as genuinely tough and self sufficient, unlike even most modern Disney girls. I'd say Mulan and Esmerelda are the only other two.

I know Belle is supposed to be intelligent, what with the books and stuff, but where does it have any effect on the plot? I'm pretty sure the story would have played out exactly the same if she were an airhead.

I mean, even the 3 year old teacup was the one who figured out how to escape that cellar.

Well, sure, but it didn't hurt that he was the only one of the two who had access to a wood-chopping steampunk monstrosity.

I think Belle's bookishness, while not paying off directly, is a large part of what endears her to the Beast. If she were a "boorish, provincial" airhead, do you really think she would have the same empathy she had, or made the same choices? It also establishes a character logic for when she rebelliously refuses to dine with the Beast on her first day with him (or any of her other battles with him. The two were contentious, albeit in a small way.) She's used to being ridiculed (because of having intelligence in that crap town) and knows how to hold up under pressure from those around her.

As for self-sufficiency, I'll give you that one. Belle's not a loner, she's a family woman. She lives with and cares for her father and she likes things that way. At the end, I think it's perfectly fitting that she winds up with an impressively extended family.

[Starscream]

Well, sure, but it didn't hurt that he was the only one of the two who had access to a wood-chopping steampunk monstrosity.

Well yeah, but she was the one who knew what the device was and had seen it in action. She should have had the bright idea of using it. Belle was fully aware her father had invented an automatic chopping machine and still just banged helplessly on the door.

Whereas the annoying crockery just glanced at the thing and not only divined its purpose but also figured out how to work it. Without hands.