"Slice your own throat", huh?

[Kaytara]

This definitely drives the final nail into the coffin on the "alternate plan" of the fiends.

V made the bargain minutes ago.
Durkon has left the fleet days ago.

If Qarr had teleported V's severed head to the paladins, there's nothing anyone could have done.

Which seems to mean that the fiends are capable of lying all they want. Thoughts?

[Belkster11]

Yeah, there was no way the alternate plan would have worked. All it would hav resulted was the paladins having V's head and a very, very dead V.

OK, sure maybe they could somehow contact Durkon and tell him that V died somehow and to rezz the elf, but by then, it would have been too late to get V's master to kick ABD's butt and save Kyrie and the kids.*

I think this is setting V up to be a tragic hero. If he just STUCK it out one more day, he wouldn't be in this mess.

*This, of course, providing that the paladins don't instead give V's head a burial and just walk away.**
**Sure, even then, there's still V's body lying on the island, but no one would know where V's body is since he didn't tell them before leaving.

[MReav]

This definitely drives the final nail into the coffin on the "alternate plan" of the fiends.

V made the bargain minutes ago.
Durkon has left the fleet days ago.

If Qarr had teleported V's severed head to the paladins, there's nothing anyone could have done.

Which seems to mean that the fiends are capable of lying all they want. Thoughts?

They've been able to lie for some time.

[Mystic Muse]

I always thought the alternate plan was too risky. it relies on a bunch of ifs. "OkayI can save my family IF Qarr decides to help me, I can then HOPE durkon is on the boat and not gone for some reason. then I can wait for the sending spell to reach my master so he can save my butt when every single second means that my family is that much closer to being soulbinded.

I don't know enough of 3.5 rules to know how long it'll take to do all of that anyways but I knew it wasn't exactly a good plan.

the fiends were doing this to convince V that he/she had other options and wanted to make sure V did this out of pride instead of actual familial concern.

on a side not V looks mad. I would be too if everybody besides me knew where the person i'd been trying to find for months.

oh and only ONE of the fiends is actually lawful anyways so they are certainly capable of lying and as long as the third uses a technicality what some would consider lying is indeed possible.

[pyrefiend]

They've been able to lie for some time.
Really? When else did they lie? I was going to say that perhaps they couldn't lie about the nature of the soul splice, but that other than that they could deceive as they saw fit.

[The Minx]

They didn't lie about the deal, though they lied about the alternative plan, just to make sure that V would admit to himself that he was doing it for all the wrong reasons.

[The Pilgrim]

It's probable that the fleet has other clerics high level enough to cast Raise Dead. Or at least scrolls to do it.

Anyway, V didn't discarded the alternate plan because it had little chance of success. Gosh, V didn't even evaluated the success chance of the alternate plan. The elf discarded it because that plan involved eating hir pride. And that's the whole point with this issue.

[Kandarin]

They're fiends, beings of absolute and elemental evil. They're not going to suggest something that would genuinely result in the triumph of good over evil.

[RMS Oceanic]

Anyway, V didn't discarded the alternate plan because it had little chance of success. Gosh, V didn't even evaluated the success chance of the alternate plan. The elf discarded it because that plan involved eating hir pride. And that's the whole point with this issue.

This. It was all about V's motivation, not the Rube Goldbergian complexity of the plan.

[Morgan Wick]

It's probable that the fleet has other clerics high level enough to cast Raise Dead. Or at least scrolls to do it.

But do they have Sending?

[The Pilgrim]

But do they have Sending?

Not the point. The fleet could have had Sending, Raise Dead, or even V's Master already on board. And V would have discarded the plan anyway.

If you take a look at strip 634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), V never analyzes the success chance of the other plan (doesn't ever has the time for it, as the Fiends only let hir a few seconds to choose). V does not discard it for being silly, V discards it to avoid having to admit that hir magic failed hir again.

Had V said, when touching the Blue Ball, "the alternate plan you offered me is stupid and incapable of working, so as a parent I still have no choice but to make the sacriffice and accept your accursed bargain", then congratz, the whole point would be yours.

But since V said "I must succeed", that leaves little ground for argumentations about the purity of hir motivations.

[Kaytara]

This thread is not about V's motivation, please. We all know what the fiends wanted to accomplish.

Pilgrim, clerics who cast Raise Dead wouldn't have been enough. You need a whole body for Raise Dead. With only a severed head, you won't get anywhere without Resurrection.

I'm just wondering if this could be a potential loophole to be exploited, since it's the only thing the fiends have definitely lied about before V accepted the bargain. Their reason for helping V was probably technically true, it just wasn't the only reason. This alternate plan, however, is something all three fiends (including the Lawful one, by the way) support and describe as viable. "There is another way to save them." "True, that would work."

If the regulations for infernal pacts prohibit untrue statements prior to the sealing of the deal, V may yet get out of this one, or at least try to.
Not that I think it will happen. The whole "V will suddenly become a mindless puppet of the fiends in front of the next Gate" hypothesis is just too dramatically juicy to be foiled by a random detail like that.

[Haven]

I continue to assume this was a parody of the convoluted plans players come up with in D&D, which are inexplicably expected to work out and sometimes even do.

[SPoD]

I'm just wondering if this could be a potential loophole to be exploited, since it's the only thing the fiends have definitely lied about before V accepted the bargain. Their reason for helping V was probably technically true, it just wasn't the only reason. This alternate plan, however, is something all three fiends (including the Lawful one, by the way) support and describe as viable. "There is another way to save them." "True, that would work."

If the regulations for infernal pacts prohibit untrue statements prior to the sealing of the deal, V may yet get out of this one, or at least try to.

The alternate plan is not part of the deal, for two reasons:

1.) Because it is an ALTERNATE to the deal, not the deal itself. In fact, had V taken the alternate plan, the fiends would have gotten nothing but a dead elf out of it.

2.) Because it is mentioned AFTER the fiend says, "If you accept the deal that we have outlined verbally, touch the blue orb". Basically, that's the cutoff point for them being bound by what they have said, because when V touches the orb later, he is accepting the deal verbally outlined up until the panel when they summon the orbs. What the fiends say between the time they summon the orbs and V finally touches them has no bearing on the deal itself.

It's sort of like someone drawing up a contract, holding it out for you to sign, and then saying, "But we're going to pay you double what it says here." If you sign that, you're a sucker, because they're only bound by what is written on the page.

[Warren Dew]

The really interesting thing about this is that it shows that Vaarsuvius's original reason for taking the deal - "I must, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain" - was actually correct. So we see that the actual reasons are "wrong" only in that Vaarsuvius incorrectly thinks there's a choice when actually taking the deal.


I'm just wondering if this could be a potential loophole to be exploited, since it's the only thing the fiends have definitely lied about before V accepted the bargain.

I doubt it. They're not lying about the deal, here; they're just doing some lying about something basically unrelated to the deal.


I continue to assume this was a parody of the convoluted plans players come up with in D&D, which are inexplicably expected to work out and sometimes even do.

Very true. Heck, there were plenty of people on these boards arguing that Vaarsuvius should use that plan because it was such a sure thing!

[Silverraptor]

Wow. I'm glad that I wasn't in V's exact position when the deal was offered. I would have taken it. Guarantied proof that I'm not right 100% of the time. Whew.:smallsigh: If I was right all the time, I'd be kicked off the forum.:smalltongue:

[spargel]

Wow. I'm glad that I wasn't in V's exact position when the deal was offered. I would have taken it. Guarantied proof that I'm not right 100% of the time. Whew.:smallsigh: If I was right all the time, I'd be kicked off the forum.:smalltongue:

I think you mean that you wouldn't have taken it.

[slayerx]

Which seems to mean that the fiends are capable of lying all they want. Thoughts?

Or maybe they didn't know that durkon had recently left... they have been monitoring V, which means they may not have been keeping and eye on the fleet for the past few days

[factotum]

The only reason the fiends came up with the alternate plan was to tell V what he already knew, deep inside--namely, that selling his soul to fiends was NOT the only solution to his problem. I'm sure he could have come up with his own way to contact Aarindarius without too much trouble, but he could never do that because it would be admitting once again that his own magical resources were not equal to the task of defeating the black dragon.

[X2]

It was just a way to sell the soul splice to V... they are lying fallacious salesmen really.

[David Argall]

Of course, it may be that our writer didn't notice this conflict until now either. So let's not be too sure it proves anything.

[Sotharsyl]

Now it seems clear that the alternate plan coudn't have worked,but you realy don't think V's motives were 95% selfish 5% the plan is too complicated to work.

[Chronos]

We have no more indication now than we ever did that the fiends have lied. They said that Durkon was on a boat, but they never said which one. And in fact, he probably is still on a boat. Neither Durkon nor (probably) Elan has any means of travel faster than a boat, and they were probably several days' sail from Greysky, so they're probably still on their way there.

[Silverraptor]

I think you mean that you wouldn't have taken it.

Oops ya. I meant to say that I would have taken the alternative plan.

[The Minx]

The really interesting thing about this is that it shows that Vaarsuvius's original reason for taking the deal - "I must, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain" - was actually correct. So we see that the actual reasons are "wrong" only in that Vaarsuvius incorrectly thinks there's a choice when actually taking the deal.

Actually, I got the impression that the point of Director Lee's alternative suggestion was to force V to admit to himself that pride was his real motivation all along. So V's statement "I must as a parent, yadda yadda" was basically just V lying to himself about his motivations (even though that statement was technically correct), and the alternative plan was only intended to make him consciously aware of this fact.

[Ridureyu]

I was pretty sure that the point was that there were alternatives, and probably V could have thought of some more plausible ones. Instead, the prideful and easy way was picked.


Anyway, V could have cut his/her(screw it, I'm just saying "he" this post) own throat. What would it have accomplished? Well, V could have retired from adventuring, settled in Greysky, and started a business selling sausages as Cut-Me-Own-Throat Vaarsuvius.

[slayerx]

Actually, I got the impression that the point of Director Lee's alternative suggestion was to force V to admit to himself that pride was his real motivation all along. So V's statement "I must as a parent, yadda yadda" was basically just V lying to himself about his motivations (even though that statement was technically correct), and the alternative plan was only intended to make him consciously aware of this fact.

No V wasn't lying to himself... i mean V had been trying to think of a solution and nothing was coming up so he was just doing it for the sake of being a parent... however, when it comes to people's actions, intent counts... the fiend's being who they are wanted to tempt V into doing something evil/selfish... By presenting an alternate plan, the fiends made it seem like there were other options... by ignoring those options and by taking the deal V CHANGED his intentions

Before he was gonna do it because he knew to hiself that he had no choice... but now, to his mind, he had a choice and thus it was totally up to him whether he should take the deal or not... and he took it

[The Minx]

No V wasn't lying to himself... i mean V had been trying to think of a solution and nothing was coming up so he was just doing it for the sake of being a parent... however, when it comes to people's actions, intent counts... the fiend's being who they are wanted to tempt V into doing something evil/selfish... By presenting an alternate plan, the fiends made it seem like there were other options... by ignoring those options and by taking the deal V CHANGED his intentions

Before he was gonna do it because he knew to hiself that he had no choice... but now, to his mind, he had a choice and thus it was totally up to him whether he should take the deal or not... and he took it

Of course he had been seeking a solution and not fount it, and of course there was no other way. That's why I said that his statement "As a parent I must..." was "technically correct".

But beneath the facade of that technical truth, his motivation for taking the deal was still stubborn pride. The alternative plan removed the facade, not the motivation that was already present. Why should his motivations have changed so drastically and so suddenly simply upon hearing the idea that another plan might be conceivable?

[GoC]

Why do people continue to state "V took the deal out of pride" as though it is fact?
It's an interpretation and should be clearly marked as such.

[The Minx]

Why do people continue to state "V took the deal out of pride" as though it is fact?
It's an interpretation and should be clearly marked as such.

Because while it is an interpretation, it is a pretty obvious one as far as such things go. The fiends said it, and V did not contradict them, but put on a sad face as he touched the orb. Kyrie said it and V did not contradict him, and he should know V better than anyone. And as a theme for V's fall from grace, it totally fits.


BTW: others state the contradictory interpretation as though it were a fact too. Obviously these kinds of things are a matter of interpretation and it's pretty redundant to spell it out. :smallsmile:

[Alair]

I'm just wondering if this could be a potential loophole to be exploited, since it's the only thing the fiends have definitely lied about before V accepted the bargain. Their reason for helping V was probably technically true, it just wasn't the only reason. This alternate plan, however, is something all three fiends (including the Lawful one, by the way) support and describe as viable. "There is another way to save them." "True, that would work."

I don't think there's any way a celestial defense-lawyer could argue this point successfully given that V was already going to accept the Fiends' offer. If they hadn't said anything V would still have damned herself, the only difference would be it would have been with a cleaner conscience than if the Fiends hadn't suggested their "alternative". And we've seen with Roy that this intent matters.

[Warren Dew]

Why do people continue to state "V took the deal out of pride" as though it is fact?

Wishful thinking is my guess.

[The Minx]

Wishful thinking is my guess.

Speak for yourself. :smalltongue:

Nah, I explained it above. :smallsmile:

[Kaytara]

It doesn't even really matter if Vaarsuvius was REALLY lying to himself or not. It's just that, up till that point, Vaarsuvius had actually been unaware of this "I must not fail" schtick he had going. Oh, it was there somewhere, nagging at his subconsciousness, but he wasn't acknowledging it. All the fiends did was bring that to the surface.

It doesn't necessarily mean that Vaarsuvius values his pride ABOVE his family. After all, both solutions were advertised as having good chances of saving his family. The difference was the Splice would boost V's ego, and the other plan would hurt V's ego. What the fiends made V realize is that he would choose his pride over his morals, i.e. that he would pick a solution that boosted his pride even though it would be an evil act.

If Vaarsuvius had had more time to think, and if the other plan were somewhat more plausible, I'd give even chances that V would have said "screw you" to the fiends and tried something else. However, tired, panicked and with only a few seconds to decide, V couldn't quite bring himself to overcome his impulses.

[Optimystik]

Wishful thinking is my guess.

You should really read Minx's post. When we've got the Fiends, Kyrie, and The Giant himself (via the comic's title) all saying the same thing, we can pretty much consider it Word of God by that point.


If Vaarsuvius had had more time to think, and if the other plan were somewhat more plausible, I'd give even chances that V would have said "screw you" to the fiends and tried something else. However, tired, panicked and with only a few seconds to decide, V couldn't quite bring himself to overcome his impulses.

I thought you said his motivation wasn't the subject of this thread? It was pretty clear this was where you were heading in any case.

"His impulses" are precisely the problem here. Just listen to his rant in #643 as he's about to peel back the Cloister. Not only is he full of triumph that he, personally, and nobody else is about to overcome the barrier, he also wasted precious time trying to find Elan and Durkon just so he could do it in front of them and gloat. Just as with his family's safety, his objective has become secondary in importance to the display of power needed to achieve it.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

This definitely drives the final nail into the coffin on the "alternate plan" of the fiends.

V made the bargain minutes ago.
Durkon has left the fleet days ago.

If Qarr had teleported V's severed head to the paladins, there's nothing anyone could have done.

Which seems to mean that the fiends are capable of lying all they want. Thoughts?

Fiends lying? Lawful evil fiends lying? I'm shocked. But the real reason V had no viable alternate plans was that V, despite his arrogance, was ill prepared.

Oh sure V was under a lot of stress but really an evoker looking for seperated friends without Sending prepared in the OotSverse? For shame. In OotS, a Sending spell takes 10 minutes to cast but a Sending scroll takes a standard action, well worth the XP and GP.

But aside from that minor tactical error, the strategic failures by V, trancing or no trancing, were twofold:

1) Not having some sort of protection against scrying, like Detect Scrying (V was never not awake) or False Vision. But this is really more of a strategic meltdown because it seems no one on the fleet had it either, not Durkon, not Elan, not Hinjo. Oh Shojo how we needed you.

2) Not having Limited Wish. You could get away with it if you were a properly prepared generalists or say a conjurer. But a conjuration barred evoker needs Limited Wish, more so if he is tactically unprepared. Can't cast teleport? No problem. Don't have a scroll of sending? No problem. Yes, yes, for all practical purposes a wizard will have only one Limited Wish prepared or on a scroll. But that one spell can save your butt.

On the other hand, depending on how good the dragon's scrying was, if she somehow learned V had Limited Wish, then the dragon would have probably just killed V after letting V know what the she was going to do to V's children. Some times you have to be lucky.

[Beren]

Of course, it may be that our writer didn't notice this conflict until now either. So let's not be too sure it proves anything.

Agreed. It was never Rich's plan to have V reject the deal, so he probably just didn't think it through thoroughly.

[David Argall]

Agreed. It was never Rich's plan to have V reject the deal, so he probably just didn't think it through thoroughly.

Probably is too strong a word. He has clearly thought thru quite a few things and it would be rash to assume this is not one of them. But several times the dramatic idea has been fine, while the actual mechanics of just where everybody is have been suspect.
Another case might be Miko and Samantha, where the bandits have been tied up for hours, meaning Miko is almost on the heels of the party. But the party gets to spend weeks hauling out that dragon gold before Miko finally finds them.