Flesh Golem

[Eloel]

I've seen many ways used to create different "unbeatable"s. Why is it that Flesh Golems are not used? They're quite good with the immunity to magic, and the construct type.

Would someone mind explaining me why they're not seen as a way to reach 'total immunity' ?


Note to anyone with me in Arena of Ascension:
This thread is created AFTER I created the character

[Starbuck_II]

I've seen many ways used to create different "unbeatable"s. Why is it that Flesh Golems are not used? They're quite good with the immunity to magic, and the construct type.

Would someone mind explaining me why they're not seen as a way to reach 'total immunity' ?


Note to anyone with me in Arena of Ascension:
This thread is created AFTER I created the character

1) They go insane; though they can calmed down: you have to think are they worth it?

2) Magic immunity is only SR magic (though numerous): not torches, etc that causes energy damage.

3) They have nothing special compared to others.

Clay Golems have berserk issue as well, but they have cursed wounds at least.

[Starscream]

A wizard still has no trouble against golems if he's prepared. There's even a spell in the SPC called Ray of De-Animation specifically designed to take care of constructs who are immune to this stuff.

[Eloel]

2) Magic immunity is only SR magic

It's all magic. True in that torches can damage. Torches are not magic.

[RTGoodman]

It's all magic. True in that torches can damage. Torches are not magic.

Flesh golems are "immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance." There are a lot of spells out there that ignore it, and spells that are specifically made to shut down golems. The entire line of orb spells, for instance, from Complete Arcane and the Spell Compendium (I think) don't allow SR, so you can kill a flesh golem with them easily.

[Myrmex]

Flesh golems are "immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance." There are a lot of spells out there that ignore it, and spells that are specifically made to shut down golems. The entire line of orb spells, for instance, from Complete Arcane and the Spell Compendium (I think) don't allow SR, so you can kill a flesh golem with them easily.

Not that easily at level 7, and not at all at level 5.

[The Glyphstone]

The Lesser Orb line is all level 1 spells...they don't do a great deal of damage (3d6 at level 5 per shot), but they're almost guaranteed hits and damage considering a Flesh Golem's touch AC - and using Lesser Orb of Cold or Lesser Orb of Fire also slows it.

[Myrmex]

The Lesser Orb line is all level 1 spells...they don't do a great deal of damage (3d6 at level 5 per shot), but they're almost guaranteed hits and damage considering a Flesh Golem's touch AC - and using Lesser Orb of Cold or Lesser Orb of Fire also slows it.

At level 5, your average wizard is going to have what, +4 or +5 to hit with touch attacks? Shooting at a flesh golem with orbs gives you a 15% or 20% of failure, which is like wearing medium armor. If you have a friend in melee, you might as well be wearing plate. Your spells will hit like 60% of the time.

Let's say you're a level 5 wizard, with 14 dex, so you get +4 to hit on ranged attacks. Then you hit 80% of the time. Let's say you've got a 22 int, for a total of 6 first level spells. Let's say your first attack lands, slowing the golem, and you are flying with no allies blocking your shots. If you shoot all 6 orbs, missing 15% of the time, average damage will be about 54. The thing has got 79 HP.

If you wanted to use up all your spells on one encounter and be useless for the rest of the day, you could beat it. I'm not sure I would call that "easy". You also have to prepare mostly orb spells in most of your slots. Which wouldn't be so bad if you went focused specialist conjurer, but personally, I like my level 5 wizards to have a party and a bigger repertoire of spells than the "what if I run into a flesh golem and have to beat it with only my orbs" set.

[kjones]

You could always just use a wand of Lesser Orb of *. Very handy for that SR-ed foe.

[Myrmex]

You could always just use a wand of Lesser Orb of *. Very handy for that SR-ed foe.

750 for 1d6 a round is ok. Better than shooting with a crossbow, anyway.

[kjones]

Even better - a lesser orb spell does 1d8. Lower range than a crossbow, though... but I'll take the touch attack any day.

[SurlySeraph]

And that, children, is why the Orb spells are overpowered.

[Starbuck_II]

And that, children, is why the Orb spells are overpowered.

Nah, just very good: remember Acid Splash is a cantrip that works just as well as the orbs but less damage (due to fact that it is a cantrip).

[ChaosDefender24]

what about glitterdust?

Nothing wrong with glitterdust. Or dragonfire adepts. Or warlocks who took that feat that makes their eldritch blast supernatural.

[Myrmex]

Crap. I fought a flesh golem this weekend with a beguiler, and totally forgot Glitterdust was SR: no.

:(

[Eloel]

There's nothing in 'Magic Immunity' that it only works on SR:Yes.
Supernatural Eldritch Blast won't hurty a flesh golem, who's immunity also protects against Su abilities.

[MeklorIlavator]

There's nothing in 'Magic Immunity' that it only works on SR:Yes.
Supernatural Eldritch Blast won't hurty a flesh golem, who's immunity also protects against Su abilities.

Uh, you're wrong on both counts. Here, let me quote the relevant text:

Immunity to Magic (Ex)
A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Bolded for Emphasis. Note how supernatural abilities are never mentioned, and that it specifically only affects spells/spell like abilities that allow SR.

Furthermore, looking up the text on spell resistance, it specifically mentions that
Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not.

[Eloel]

Which version are you using?


Magic Immunity (Su): At 9th level, a flesh golem
becomes immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural
abilities (except fire, cold, and electricity effects, as
described in the Energy Vulnerability entry). This ability
supersedes the golem’s spell resistance ability.

Here's mine, and it confirms both of my points. It's from Savage Species.

[Dr_Horrible]

Which version are you using?

Here's mine, and it confirms both of my points. It's from Savage Species.

They are probably using the Monster Manual. You know, where Flesh Golems come from. And so, by the Primary Source rule, oh yeah, MM text overrides 3.hybrid Savage Species.

[Eloel]

They are probably using the Monster Manual. You know, where Flesh Golems come from. And so, by the Primary Source rule, oh yeah, MM text overrides 3.hybrid Savage Species.

Not when you're using the racial 'levels'. MM doesn't have those, and if you're using them, SS > MM, which I AM using.
Sorry for not stating the source before, my bad on that.

[MeklorIlavator]

Ah, there's your reason no one uses flesh golems: outside of one of the most broken books(that's not even 3.5), they lack the really great ability, thus no one think's to use them.

[ChaosDefender24]

The immune to supernaturals is a trend I see in other 3.0 golems, for the golems in the MMII and Fiend Folio also have this immunity.

If you want to use 3.0 material in lieu of 3.5, be my guest, but I think we were talking about the most updated version of the flesh golem.

[Thespianus]

The Lesser Orb line is all level 1 spells...they don't do a great deal of damage (3d6 at level 5 per shot), but they're almost guaranteed hits and damage considering a Flesh Golem's touch AC - and using Lesser Orb of Cold or Lesser Orb of Fire also slows it.

Also, using the Reserve Feat "Fiery Burst" from Complete Mage allows you to pound on a Flesh Golem with a (level of fire spell in reserve) x D6 Supernatural (ie not subject to spell resistance) fire-attack until the cows come home. :)

Good stuff! :)

[Khanderas]

And that, children, is why the Orb spells are overpowered.
Nah, just very good: remember Acid Splash is a cantrip that works just as well as the orbs but less damage (due to fact that it is a cantrip).
Well that is one way to look at it. Another is to see that "against this creature non-wizards can have a turn to be needed" except with orbs they aren't. :smallamused:

[Dr_Horrible]

Well that is one way to look at it. Another is to see that "against this creature non-wizards can have a turn to be needed" except with orbs they dont. :smallamused:

Except that enemies aren't supposed to be enemies that Wizards kill while fighters sit around, and enemies that fighters kill while Wizards sit around.

Because then half the players are sitting around every fight. And that sucks.

Instead all enemies should be fought by the whole party, and in that sense, Orbs are freaking perfect against Golems.

They do some damage, but generally speaking not a lot, and in that provide a contribution against golems such that Fighters feel needed and Wizards feel useful. (As compared with facing a whole bunch of punk monsters, where the Wizard feels needed and the fighter [hopefully, but not always] feels useful.)

[Kylarra]

Well according to SRD
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm


Immunity to Magic (Ex)

Golems have immunity to most magical and supernatural effects, except when otherwise noted.

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals electricity damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a flesh golem hit by a lightning bolt heals 3 points of damage if the attack would have dealt 11 points of damage. A flesh golem golem gets no saving throw against attacks that deal electricity damage.

[Khanderas]

Except that enemies aren't supposed to be enemies that Wizards kill while fighters sit around, and enemies that fighters kill while Wizards sit around.

Because then half the players are sitting around every fight. And that sucks.

Instead all enemies should be fought by the whole party, and in that sense, Orbs are freaking perfect against Golems.

They do some damage, but generally speaking not a lot, and in that provide a contribution against golems such that Fighters feel needed and Wizards feel useful. (As compared with facing a whole bunch of punk monsters, where the Wizard feels needed and the fighter [hopefully, but not always] feels useful.)
I am not saying a Wizard should be completly useless when meeting a fleshgolem. Still plenty of buffing, wall of force, floor to mud and such to be done.

I merely felt that this monster has spellresistence, this in order to let the melee shine alittle more then usual. Then the orb spells came and spellresistence was rendered pointless.
With the orb set, a wizard can do damage and slow it (since fire or ice attacks slow it) from a safe distance. With a few choice metamagic or wands, rendering non-wizards obsolete and pointless even on encounters where spellresistence used to be a factor.

Fighters (in the broad, non ToB sense of the word) then reduced from valued partymember to cohort/mopup-crew. What is the point of SR, if any Wizard can just say "SR.. ok ill cast an Orb spell that ignores that" ?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fighters (in the broad, non ToB sense of the word) then reduced from valued partymember to cohort/mopup-crew. What is the point of SR, if any Wizard can just say "SR.. ok ill cast an Orb spell that ignores that" ?News Flash:They could do that long before the Orbs came along. Glitterdust alone is enough to turn a Golem into a shambling idiot. Heck, slowing an enemy alone pretty much makes it useless. Either of those means the Fighter is cleanup crew, whether he realizes it or not.

[Myrmex]

News Flash:They could do that long before the Orbs came along. Glitterdust alone is enough to turn a Golem into a shambling idiot. Heck, slowing an enemy alone pretty much makes it useless. Either of those means the Fighter is cleanup crew, whether he realizes it or not.

I don't follow.
How is the guy who is responsible for downing the creature "clean up crew"? It's like someone in the air force dismissing the marines as "clean up crew". Good luck trying to hold territory with just jets.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't follow.
How is the guy who is responsible for downing the creature "clean up crew"? It's like someone in the air force dismissing the marines as "clean up crew". Good luck trying to hold territory with just jets.Because facing a Blinded enemy gives you a 50% miss chance, as well as making it incredibly hard to locate you. Killing a Blind Golem could be done by a Skeleton, a Planar Bound Demon, a Follower, or a Hireling. That is cleanup duty.

[Myrmex]

Because facing a Blinded enemy gives you a 50% miss chance, as well as making it incredibly hard to locate you. Killing a Blind Golem could be done by a Skeleton, a Planar Bound Demon, a Follower, or a Hireling. That is cleanup duty.

Who's going to be binding demons at level 7?
Also, 7 to 8 rounds is not enough time for a skeleton, a follower, or a hireling to kill something with AC 18 and DR 5/adamantine. Even with a 50% miss chance, that's still around 15 damage/round.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I think he was exaggerating.

What he was saying was that the average fighter can easily do 15 points of damage per round, even if he is a few levels lower than 7.
And if you can kill him easily when he can barely fight back, what are you? Cleanup crew.

[Dr_Horrible]

Who's going to be binding demons at level 7?
Also, 7 to 8 rounds is not enough time for a skeleton, a follower, or a hireling to kill something with AC 18 and DR 5/adamantine. Even with a 50% miss chance, that's still around 15 damage/round.

1) Cohort Fighter gets the job done.

2) Level 7 Wizard can have a 20HD skeleton holding an Adamantium Sword that can definitely take the golem while slowed. Or more realistically, he could have a Fire Giant Skeleton. See how fun that is.

3) You know who else can clean up on a slowed Golem? An AC, like the ones Wizards can have with a variant instead of familiar.

[mostlyharmful]

If you want to think that immunity to magic means the Wizard isn't the key member of the team ok but I'm not inclined to agree (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8043#msg8043)

[Myrmex]

1) Cohort Fighter gets the job done.

2) Level 7 Wizard can have a 20HD skeleton holding an Adamantium Sword that can definitely take the golem while slowed. Or more realistically, he could have a Fire Giant Skeleton. See how fun that is.

3) You know who else can clean up on a slowed Golem? An AC, like the ones Wizards can have with a variant instead of familiar.

1) Oh wow, leadership. Hey look, my fighter has a cohort wizard. There's a reason leadership never gets brought up in serious discussion- it's absurdly broken.

2) Where is a level 7 wizard going to get a 20HD corpse? Or a fire giant skeleton? Besides, how often have your wizards invested in equipping skeletons, much less keeping them around? The dedicated necromancer is rare, because you pretty much have to rely on the DM constantly throwing you bones to reanimate.

3) I wouldn't bet on a badger taking down a golem. Maybe a heavy warhorse. Maybe. And you still have to make handle animal checks (cross class) to keep the badger from fleeing the corpse creature.

[Dr_Horrible]

2) Where is a level 7 wizard going to get a 20HD corpse? Or a fire giant skeleton? Besides, how often have your wizards invested in equipping skeletons, much less keeping them around? The dedicated necromancer is rare, because you pretty much have to rely on the DM constantly throwing you bones to reanimate.

The advantage to equipping a skeleton is that when the skeleton dies, you still have the equipment. Also, you can equip it from the same enemy you created the skeleton.

The reason you don't see that many Wizards using Necromancy is not because it's hard or not powerful, it's because usually those Wizards are in a party with a Fighter, and they care more about their IRL friend having fun then their PC being that much extra awesome.


3) I wouldn't bet on a badger taking down a golem. Maybe a heavy warhorse. Maybe. And you still have to make handle animal checks (cross class) to keep the badger from fleeing the corpse creature.

1) Yes, making the one DC 10 Handle animal check one time is really difficult.

2) I was talking about a Fleshraker. Cause you know, slow means that pinned monsters can't do anything. Sure the Golem has a slightly higher mod, but I the situation heavily favors the Fleshraker.

[mostlyharmful]

1) Oh wow, leadership. Hey look, my fighter has a cohort wizard. There's a reason leadership never gets brought up in serious discussion- it's absurdly broken.

Who casts a full spell level behind the PC wizard.... and oh, look. Now we're playing Wizard vs Wizard plus attendant mook with big sword. Leadership's broken no argument but the Wizard's got loads of ways to get a hp damage minion.


2) Where is a level 7 wizard going to get a 20HD corpse? Or a fire giant skeleton? Besides, how often have your wizards invested in equipping skeletons, much less keeping them around? The dedicated necromancer is rare, because you pretty much have to rely on the DM constantly throwing you bones to reanimate.

All you need is animate dead and Command Undead, available at level three to an undedicated Wizard. And if you want to use Undead mooks you are always on the lookout for good corpses and can upgrade for very little cost. plus wizards guilds in worlds where this is allowed by the powers that be (read the DM) should be selling suitable corpses from their higher level members to their lower level ones for the good of the Art and the profit margin


3) I wouldn't bet on a badger taking down a golem. Maybe a heavy warhorse. Maybe. And you still have to make handle animal checks (cross class) to keep the badger from fleeing the corpse creature.

That's what buff spells are for. Animal growth, magic fang and barkskin go a frik of a long way for free if you're a Druid. If you're a mage using the alternate feature then you have less animal focussed stuff available but more powerful stuff on hand so it balances.