Hey, what about Xykon?

[Mr. Pin]

Didn't we all predict that V was going to go after him and have a battle of some sort, perhaps destroying him once and for all? Isn't it her duty to take him out now, while she has the power?

She seems to be more concerned with finding Roy and contacting the order! It seems to me that she should really keep her eyes on the big picture.

Any thoughts?

[oxybe]

the big prize is Xykon but V's trying to "make right" what he couldn't. V's always been so sure of his arcane power and that it would always have the answer to all problems.

but it didn't.

he ran out of spells and failed to save the people of azure city.

his power is not strong enough to break the cloister spell and locate Haley.

his spells are not enough to stop the black dragon out for vengeance.

V wasn't dropped a few pegs, those pegs were all unceremoniously removed from under him and he didn't have feather fall prepared that day.

before V can even begin thinking about Xykon he has to prove to himself he's still got it. that his magic can still solve all his problems.

black dragon? polymorph/familicide

azure city? Epic teleport

Haley? powerful divina- "She's in Graysky city" O_o *twitch*

again... taken down a few pegs. just when he thought he had all the answers, the pregnant lady blurted out the answer.

V's falling and it's not going to stop for a few more strips. he's been humbled and humiliated time after time.

[Flickerdart]

Xykon should be amused enough by the undead gladiators to stick around for a while longer. He's not pertinent to the reunification plot anymore.

[North_Ranger]

Give the ol' bag of bones some much-deserved R&R time, will ya? :smalltongue:

Besides, V can't just go in and zap him, his phylactery and a few baker's dozens of goblins just like that. Xykon is still the main villain, and we can't just drop a Deus ex Machina on him.

[Chronos]

Remember, V's schtick is all about the supremacy of arcane power. Being defeated by Xykon, or not defeating him, isn't really a big deal, because he's a wielder of arcane power, too. In fact, his continued existence is probably something of a reinforcement of Vaarsuvius' ideals. Separation from Roy and Haley is more problematic, though, because arcane magic can't deal with either of those, and although it was in fact more arcane magic preventing V from contacting Haley, e doesn't know that.

[David Argall]

Didn't we all predict that V was going to go after him and have a battle of some sort, perhaps destroying him once and for all? Isn't it her duty to take him out now, while she has the power?

She seems to be more concerned with finding Roy and contacting the order! It seems to me that she should really keep her eyes on the big picture.


V has always put a high value on group. So it is quite reasonable that she restore the Order first.

Now an attempt to take out Xykon may well come soon, or even next. It's a good idea of itself. And V needs some way to justify having held onto the splice.

[Undead Prince]

V's falling and it's not going to stop for a few more strips. he's been humbled and humiliated time after time.

Yeah yeah, Break the Haughty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakTheHaughty), How are the Mighty Fallen (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/188450.html) and all that. TVTropes even cites Vaarsuvius as an example.

What interests me more (and always interested in cases of power + hubris, starting from the Greeks and the Bible), is how the hero takes it all.

The price of power is bad karma. The Gods, the Fates, the Stars - they are all seething with envy and will twist the Wheel of Fortune into the blackest disasters awaiting those who have dared to go beyond their allotted stature. It is up to the hero (an archetype of Man) to stand firm against the blows of fate, do what he can, and retain dignity even in the face of insufferable calamity.

Something tells me V is not entirely up to the task and will be broken. But I still hope that he does not betray his dream and will not let petty mishaps ruin a great opportunity.

[Undead Prince]

Remember, V's schtick is all about the supremacy of arcane power. Being defeated by Xykon, or not defeating him, isn't really a big deal, because he's a wielder of arcane power, too. In fact, his continued existence is probably something of a reinforcement of Vaarsuvius' ideals.

Yes, but beyond abstract belief in arcane power, V is also after personal success. Remember, his defeats all came from this same arcane, or in some cases divine, magical power (Redcloak's Death Knight, Xykon's Cloister, the Dragon's Antimagic Sphere etc.). So V is mainly out to prove himself as the Ultimate Wielder of Arcane Power. And owning Xykon has to be on his list of things to do - probably right after getting the Order back together, if at least so that they will all bear witness to his greatness.


Separation from Roy and Haley is more problematic, though, because arcane magic can't deal with either of those,

Actually, the Haley problem was more or less solved by a Sending spell, which is both arcane and divine. And arcane magic can certainly resolve the Roy problem: Dominate a cleric, Teleport to the golemcrafter's castle, order the cleric to Resurrect Roy.


and although it was in fact more arcane magic preventing V from contacting Haley, e doesn't know that.

I'm sure he has an idea. First, what else could close an area from divinations? Second, V obviously thought he had an epic spell that could pierce the protection; to be so sure, he had to have an idea about the nature of the protection.

[King of Nowhere]

I'd really like to see V going after Xykon and getting hir ass wiped. Sure, V is more powerful than Xykon in this form, but Xykon is immune to instant death, and has two high level clerics near him to heal.
Maybe some lines from Redcloack like "fool! I'm a cleric, I can heal more damage than the three of you can deal!" and maybe V will understand the benefit of a party.
I don't think it is going to happen

[Dagren]

[A]rcane magic can certainly resolve the Roy problem: Dominate a cleric, Teleport to the golemcrafter's castle, order the cleric to Resurrect Roy.Wouldn't golemroy have to be destroyed first? If so, this might present a problem because IIRC golems tend to be magic-immune. How exactly would everyone's favourite elf deal with that?

[Undead Prince]

Wouldn't golemroy have to be destroyed first? If so, this might present a problem because IIRC golems tend to be magic-immune. How exactly would everyone's favourite elf deal with that?

Golems are only immune to spells that allow spell resistance.

Quickened Maximised Orb of Acid + Maximised Empowered Orb of Acid from Jephthon ought to be enough to put the Roy golem out of commission in 1 round.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Wouldn't golemroy have to be destroyed first? If so, this might present a problem because IIRC golems tend to be magic-immune. How exactly would everyone's favourite elf deal with that?

A conjuration spell that doesn't allow SR? Buffing/Polymorphing hirself and tearing the golem's head off? Forcecage around the golem?

Hmmm..Ninja'd by a zombie. How embarrassing.

[Ridureyu]

So what happens if V faces Xykon, but gets hit with a disjunction or a splice-ending spell immediately?

"Sorry, your ultimate arcane power just can't stand up against three working brain cells."

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, from what V said the sole purpose for finding Durkon and Elan was so that it could gloat about how its magic did find Haley after all. With that revelation it seems it's got some REALLY screwed up priorities.

[Undead Prince]

Hmmm..Ninja'd by a zombie. How embarrassing.

That's Ju-Ju Zombie to you, Sir. And as such, I have +2 Dex and Improved Initiative, so don't feel too bad.

Actually, the undead I usually end up as is the Necropolitan. Early access, cheap cost, no LA, and no humongous weaknesses like some other undead (looking at you, Vampire! Have to be dead for several days, end up as a slave to the Vampire who spawned me unless arrange for his destruction beforehand, and receive the nice special quality of being utterly destroyed in 1 round of sunlight! Nah, count me out).

But this gives me an idea that ordering the cohort to raise my char as a Ju-Ju Zombie may bring prof!t... have to Resurrect myself first to obtain life again, though... but that Ju-Ju template sure is sweet...

[Undead Prince]

So what happens if V faces Xykon, but gets hit with a disjunction or a splice-ending spell immediately?

1) A disjunction wouldn't hurt V in the slightest. Yeah, it would dispel magical protections, so what? While Xykon was busy disjoining V, V was busy destroying/controlling his undead @$$.

2) We don't know if a splice even can be ended by a spell, and even if it could, it would have to be an epic spell, which has to be researched first. No dice.


"Sorry, your ultimate arcane power just can't stand up against three working brain cells."

Particularly funny coming from someone who just... no, I won't go there. Let's just say - let us not insult comic characters in such a depreciating manner, particularly when our own knowledge of the matter in question is seemingly inferior to these same characters.

[Undead Prince]

I'd really like to see V going after Xykon and getting hir ass wiped. Sure, V is more powerful than Xykon in this form, but Xykon is immune to instant death, and has two high level clerics near him to heal.
Maybe some lines from Redcloack like "fool! I'm a cleric, I can heal more damage than the three of you can deal!" and maybe V will understand the benefit of a party.
I don't think it is going to happen

Yeah, it's not.

Because a duel between two epic spellcasters will be so fast Redcloak wouldn't even have time to react. And the pathetic Tsukiko does not even have a place in the audience.

I was going to add that spellcasters don't usually fight with direct damage spells, but then realised that in OoTS they do just that. Oh well.

[TimelordSimone]

Am I the only one who didn't expect V to go after Xykon?

I mean, when has V actually shown any interest in fighting Xykon?

I entirely expected him to start bringing the group back together again.
He's been obsessed with finding Haley since they got seperated.

[Kaytara]

Am I the only one who didn't expect V to go after Xykon?

I mean, when has V actually shown any interest in fighting Xykon?

I entirely expected him to start bringing the group back together again.
He's been obsessed with finding Haley since they got seperated.

The reason it's likely that V will take a shot at Xykon is this: If he gives the Splice up now, or a few rounds later having teleported Durkon and Elan to Greysky City, he will have chosen the Splice over his family for no good reason. Therefore, he still has to put that power to use to justify having held on to it (and saving the fleet isn't something V considers to be particularly significant at this point).

[factotum]

The reason it's likely that V will take a shot at Xykon is this: If he gives the Splice up now, or a few rounds later having teleported Durkon and Elan to Greysky City, he will have chosen the Splice over his family for no good reason.

It depends on what V considers a good reason. I'm with TimelordSimone on that front--to V, it is more important that he makes up for his past failures than defeat Xykon, and his biggest failure in the last six months or so has been the failure to contact Haley. Azure City he can justify by saying that he was out of spells and there was nothing more he could do, but he doesn't have that excuse for the Haley issue!

[Taelas]

It isn't necessary to contact Haley anymore. His best shot to reestablish how superior arcane might is, and it's stripped away from him by a simple comment from a non-important NPC.

I wouldn't bet on what happens next.

[Undead Prince]

It isn't necessary to contact Haley anymore. His best shot to reestablish how superior arcane might is, and it's stripped away from him by a simple comment from a non-important NPC.

First, Durkon and Elan were summoned by a Sending spell, which is both arcane and divine. So the Haley conundrum was resolved through magic (by pure chance the spell was cast by a cleric and not by a wizard, but I don't see how that makes any difference).

Second, V's best opportunity to show off his skillz is taking down Xykon. Which is what this entire thread is about.

[Undead Prince]

to V, it is more important that he makes up for his past failures than defeat Xykon, and his biggest failure in the last six months or so has been the failure to contact Haley.

Which was due to Xykon's Cloister. So failure to contact Haley = failure to defeat Xykon.

Also, V's pride will tell him to test his mettle against the world's most powerful known magic-user.

I think the Xykon issue will be addressed and resolved in one way or the other. V himself would certainly take up the opportunity to show off. Point is, whether he'll lose the splice before he can take on Xykon, or he'll face Xykon in a weakened state (e.g. with only one soul left) and be defeated, or... there are a number of possibilities, but I don't think any of them involves V voluntarily giving away the splice without trying to defeat Xykon.

[Dagren]

I was going to add that spellcasters don't usually fight with direct damage spells, but then realised that in OoTS they do just that. Oh well.Well, sometimes. Don't forget the ULTIMATE DUEL BETWEEN CLERICS!!!

[Kaytara]

An attack by Super-V could easily be just the thing to shake Xykon and Redcloak out of their stasis in Azure City. So that way, everyone gets moving again. :)

[oxybe]

actually, like Dagren said: spellcaster duels in OotS are not damage fests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

[the_tick_rules]

So go get Haley and the rest back, then go smoke Xykon's bones. Haha get it, smoke bones?

[factotum]

First, Durkon and Elan were summoned by a Sending spell, which is both arcane and divine. So the Haley conundrum was resolved through magic (by pure chance the spell was cast by a cleric and not by a wizard, but I don't see how that makes any difference).

Second, V's best opportunity to show off his skillz is taking down Xykon. Which is what this entire thread is about.

What makes the difference is that it was not V who cast that spell. V may say that he wishes to prove the dominance of arcane magic, but what he really means is that he wishes to prove the dominance of HIS magic. At the back of his mind is the little niggling voice telling him that all his failures have been because he is too weak, and he needs to get more power to solve his problems.

Now, this may very well mean that his next logical target is Xykon, but something must happen to prevent that meeting or else the strip ends here--spliced V is way more than a match for our favourite lich sorcerer.

[King of Nowhere]

Yeah, it's not.

Because a duel between two epic spellcasters will be so fast Redcloak wouldn't even have time to react. And the pathetic Tsukiko does not even have a place in the audience.

I was going to add that spellcasters don't usually fight with direct damage spells, but then realised that in OoTS they do just that. Oh well.

Normally high level spellcasters uses save or dies, but Xykon is a lich, meaning he is immune to all save or die I can think of, and you need damage to kill him. Maybe a maximized disintegrate would do the trick, if the attack roll succeed and Xykon fails the save. Unless you are thinking at some obscure anti-lich spells from some tome of ancient forgotten knowledge sourcebook I've never heard of.
And if V buffs himself before the fight, Xykon won't be able to take him down immediately. That way, the fight will last some rounds, and Redcloack and Tsukiko will get to heal, possibly making the difference.

[Undead Prince]

Xykon is a lich, meaning he is immune to all save or die I can think of, and you need damage to kill him. Unless you are thinking at some obscure anti-lich spells from some tome of ancient forgotten knowledge sourcebook I've never heard of.

Control Undead. PHB. Heightened to epic proportions.


And if V buffs himself before the fight, Xykon won't be able to take him down immediately. That way, the fight will last some rounds, and Redcloack and Tsukiko will get to heal, possibly making the difference.

If V properly buffs himself before the fight, he will win Initiative, and possibly even get a Surprise Round (if he arrives Ethereal and Xykon doesn't have permanent True Sight). A surprise round is all it takes: Quickened Disjunction (swift action) followed by Heightened Control Undead (standard action).

If you want to go by the damage route, Time Stop and a bunch of Delayed Fireballs would do the trick. Or, Quickened Disjunction + Maximised Empowered Meteor Swarm. That's so much damage there won't be a speck of dust left from Xykon. (actually, it's 256 fire + bludgeoning damage with no save, and a 21st level Lich can have no more than 252 hp even if he rolled maximum hp every level, which he couldn't; on average rolls, Xykon would have only 132 hp).

[Laughing Dragon]

I don't really believe that the point is whether V could take out Xykon, it's if s/he would choose to.

I have to vote no for several reasons. First, as already stated V is more about party than going stag. Second, V is all about proving arcane supremecy ... proof in this case requires witnesses. Third, plot mechanics. If V takes out Xykon that deprives Roy of that privelege. Whether V wants X permanently destroyed or not is irrelevent ... it's Roy's job to take him out.

No ... V's next acts will be to rejoin the party and take steps to get Roy back up and running (with his soul back in his body). Because spellcaster or not V does respect Roy as being the next smartest person in the party.

[David Argall]

actually, like Dagren said: spellcaster duels in OotS are not damage fests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

That strip was pointing out that clerics have a relative shortage of distance attack spells, and quite a few touch spells. Mages are not in that condition. See SoD for some examples.

Now can V take Xykon? V is about 60th level. Xykon is about 21st, maybe mid 20's when we add in lich advantages. Either way it's still Super-V vs the dragon again. It lasts as long as V wants it to and ends with bone dust all over the place. And Redcloak and the others just need an extra round or two before they are red smears. All that can save them is that the plot says Xykon is going to be in the story for a lot longer.

Will V attack? All signs say yes. It's a good idea of itself to get rid of the big bad, and V needs some justification for keeping the splice.

[DrGonzo]

Will V attack? All signs say yes. It's a good idea of itself to get rid of the big bad, and V needs some justification for keeping the splice.

Yes, but it would be a serious storykiller. A bit anticlimatic too isn't it?

[JJ48]

As for whether V WILL attack Xykon, I think most of the storyline reasons point to "No", but let's assume for the moment that V will. If that happens, then yes, V probably COULD just pop in and blast Xykon, except for one thing: V likes to talk. Especially, V likes his opponents to understand just what's going on. Granted, not all situations have allowed for this (such as in the middle of the war for Azure City). However, when the opportunity presented itself, V was more than happy to oblige. For instance, in the early comics, V bored an entire group of goblins to sleep while trying to get them to comprehend just how much power he was about to unleash on them. Then, against Momma Dragon, V made sure that she understood exactly what he was doing with the Familicide spell. Something tells me that against a villain as big as Xykon, V would want to make sure that dominance was clearly established before actually destroying the lich. Xykon's uncaring attitude would prolong the process, and possibly frustrate V to the point of not noticing that Redcloak and the others were making preparations.

[The MunchKING]

That strip was pointing out that clerics have a relative shortage of distance attack spells, and quite a few touch spells. Mages are not in that condition. See SoD for some examples.

Now can V take Xykon? V is about 60th level. Xykon is about 21st, maybe mid 20's when we add in lich advantages. Either way it's still Super-V vs the dragon again. It lasts as long as V wants it to and ends with bone dust all over the place. And Redcloak and the others just need an extra round or two before they are red smears. All that can save them is that the plot says Xykon is going to be in the story for a lot longer.

What if she nails Xykon, but overlooks Redcloak? Or more aptly, doesn't know he's holding the Phylanctrary?

She had the justification she needed and in 3d4 days Xycon's as bad as ever.

[David Argall]

What if she nails Xykon, but overlooks Redcloak? Or more aptly, doesn't know he's holding the Phylanctrary?

She had the justification she needed and in 3d4 days Xycon's as bad as ever.
Properly speaking, it shouldn't happen. V now knows about the phylactery, and even lacking information about where it is, is merely an epic divination away from finding it.
Now of course from plot ideas, it might work. V pops into the city, casually dusts Xykon, tells everybody else they can run back to the hills, be nice citizens, or die, and a little later drop the splice as a success, only to realize then that Xykon regenerates.