3.5 Skill System Reform

[Grazhendul]

3.5 Skill System Reform


Forgery? Decipher script? Really? They might be fun for some fluff, but in the end, which skill monkey really wants to put his valuable ranks in them?


So let’s mash them all together and gain these categories:

Acrobatics (Balance/ Jump/ Tumble/ Climb/…
Arcana (Spellcraft/ Decipher script/ …
Athletics (Jump/ Swim/ Climb/ Ride/…
Deceit ( Disguise/ Bluff/ Forgery/ …
Nature (Survival/ Handle Animal/ Use Rope/ …
Perception (Listen/ Spot/ …
Social (Diplomacy/ Sense Motive/ …
Stealth (Hide/ Move Silently/ …
Streetwise (Gather Info/ Intimidate/ …
Thievery (Disable Device/ Escape Artist/ Open Lock/ Sleight of hand/ Use Rope/ Search/ …
Use magic device

These sets are rather broad and might overlap sometimes. The DM can wing specific situations for sets to incorporate certain detailed skills (Ex. Nature could be used to set up small traps as could thievery, …)


Concentration and heal will be class traits

Concentration: Caster LvL + con mod (All casters)
Heal: Class LvL + wis mod (Rangers, Clerics, Paladins, Druids)
-Can be gained with a feat.

Most knowledges will be attributed to corresponding skills (Nature: know nature, …) or/and made available as a class trait, again gained as an extra with a feat.


But as we’ve cut the amount of skills drastically we need to redefine the amount of skill points gained, I honestly have no idea how to balance this.

Your average class will have +/-3 sets.

But I’m stuck on concrete figures.

What would be balanced?
How can I make None-Class skills suck less?


Should I go with a ½ Class + ability + ranks system?
Or should I go with a 1 rank = 1 SP, 2nd rank = 3 SP System?


As Usual, I’m lost on balance, so help is appreciated.

[Chronos]

Forgery? Decipher script? Really? They might be fun for some fluff, but in the end, which skill monkey really wants to put his valuable ranks in them?A 10th or 15th level character of any class really ought to be able to defeat a small army single-handedly. Forgery (along with a smattering of Disguise and Bluff) is what a skillmonkey uses to do that. Slip into the lines of communication, edit all of the orders, sow chaos in the army's actions, and let it defeat itself. So yes, forgery is a valuable skill worth spending points on.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Slip into the lines of communication, edit all of the orders, sow chaos in the army's actions, and let it defeat itself. So yes, forgery is a valuable skill worth spending points on. Slip into the lines with a Wand of Minor Creation and infect the drinking water with lotus extract, then you'll see them drop like flies. Anyway, the skills haven't been removed, simply rolled into a more comprehensive list, something that I'm all for (there is something in the lines of 40 without it, counting what is gotten from splat books as well.)

[Gnorman]

Bottom line: there are too many skills, but most of them encompass specific usage that it would be counterintuitive to reduce them to the number that you have.

Problem with mashing too many skills together is that suddenly even low skill-point classes can become adequate skill monkeys, further screwing the rogue/bard/beguiler/factotum/whatever out of their special unique place. And it doesn't make any sense that one skill point can both allow you to escape from strong bonds as well as search rooms for traps. Doesn't mesh well.

That being said, there are a few skills that can easily be squished together while still being able to maintain current SP/level amounts. I like what Pathfinder's done with a few. Essentially, only combine skills that hinge on the same attribute.

Spot and Listen should be combined into Perception. Move Silently and Hide should be combined into Stealth. Still opposed rolls, drastically simplified.

I support your Acrobatics idea, but it should only combine Dex-based skills - Balance and Tumble. Jump and Climb are Str, and should be combined with Swim for Athletics. Both should be class skills for fighters. (I might be off on the relevant statistic.)

Concentration and Spellcraft can arguably be mashed together, though it's less logical to do so - I hate the fact that Sorcerers are consistently screwed over in this department, and it at least allows them to spend some of those precious few points on bluff or some other charisma-based skill (I houserule all CHA-based skills 'cept UMD to be Sorcerer class skills). And really, Concentration isn't really a skill. You can't take a master class in it or learn how to do so from a tutor. Not well, at least. So I consider Spellcraft to encompass "how to maintain a spell when distracted" and just use that as the roll for concentration checks.

Gather Information is a stupid skill. There, I said it. It has too much overlap with other social skills and Knowledge (local). I support the Streetwise skill idea, but I am skeptical about it including intimidate. Bluff, however, might be a good combination.

No more than three skills at a time should be combined, I believe. And Perform should be done away with, though that's a discussion for a separate thread (general unfairness of forcing the Bard to invest skill points to unlock class features).

Here's my revised list:

Acrobatics (Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble)
Appraise
Athletics (Jump, Climb, & Swim)
Craft
Disable Device
Handle Animal (encompasses Ride as well, though; Dex-based)
Heal
Infiltration (Forgery and Disguise; Int-based)
Influence (Diplomacy and Intimidate)
Knowledge (Though some less-used skills should be combined - nobility and royalty can be rolled in with history, while geography could feasibly be rolled into nature. Arcana and the planes too, MAYBE, but less likely)
Open Lock
Perception (Spot, Search, and Listen)
Profession
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Spellcraft
Stealth (Move Silently and Hide)
Streetwise (Gather Information and Bluff)
Survival (also encompasses Use Rope [it's a Boy Scout thing]; hinges on Wis)
Use Magic Device

I realize that I have combined a few skills that don't hinge on the same attribute - some of them just work better together thematically.

This way, the skills that are just a little TOO specialized or a little TOO complicated are combined, while still providing balance. This system allows sorcerers to shine a bit more in social situations, and lets rogues and bards branch out beyond their trapfinding, lock-opening, music-playing stereotypes.

An elite array rogue has... what, 13 INT? 12? So 9-10 skill points a level.

Under RAW, all rogues will probably take Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disable Device, Search, and Use Magic Device. Maybe Spot and Listen too. So they've got arguably one to four skills left, forced to specialize heavily as either a social rogue or a slippery rogue or an acrobatic rogue. Let's throw them a bone here.

With this system, they can have two to six open skills. Much more room to play around with things, plus a lot of extra skills encompass more. A 12 INT human could have Stealth, Perception, Streetwise, Open Lock, Disable Device, Infiltration, Use Magic Device, Search, Acrobatics, and Sleight of Hand. Much more powerful, much more useful - a boost a rogue sorely needs.

[Learnedguy]

You can have a lot of fun with forgery and some creativity. Invite yourself to the palace, start a war, inherit a fortune...

The power of the pen is mightier than the sword:smallcool:

[Telonius]

B
Here's my revised list:

Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble)
Appraise
Athletics (Jump, Climb, & Swim)
Craft
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Handle Animal (encompasses Ride as well, though)
Heal
Infiltration (Forgery and Disguise)
Intimidate
Knowledge (Though some less-used skills should be combined - nobility and royalty can be rolled in with history, while geography could feasibly be rolled into nature. Arcana and the planes too, MAYBE, but less likely)
Open Lock
Perception (Spot and Listen)
Profession
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Spellcraft
Stealth (Move Silently and Hide)
Streetwise (Gather Information and Bluff)
Survival (also encompasses Use Rope [it's a Boy Scout thing])
Use Magic Device



I like it, a lot. I'd add a couple more combinations: Open Lock and Disable Device, into a single "sabotage" skill; and rolling Knowledge (architecture and engineering) with Knowledge (Dungeoneering) into a single skill (which gives synergy to Sabotage).

[horseboy]

which skill monkey really wants to put his valuable ranks in them?
Actually I think there's the problems right there. I deny the existence of the "skill monkey" role.
But first let's take a fresh look at the concepts of the skills. Ask yourself "Can can't Joe Schmoe on the street do that?" Some skills, like Perception and Profession *CoughfighterCough* should be Universal skills. Next, what's so hard about being stealthy? It's something children learn playing. Well, anyone can be sneaky but only a real git is stealthy. Okay, so spit balling here, Make the first 4 ranks class skills for some skills. That way everybody can pick up the basics for commonly used cross skills, so a fighter could actually be able to tell little, white lies. Then there's some skills, like UMD (How the Hell does one convince an inanimate object they're actually a wizard anyways?) that require a lot of constant training. They function like "normal" cross-classed skills.

[Gnorman]

Well, you have to remember that ranks in skills go beyond the "I learned how to do this playing hide and seek" thing. Even one rank in a skill represents some sort of professional, dedicated training.

But I highly support adding a few skills to the fighter's list. Perception, definitely. Another houserule I use to is to up every skill total to at least 4 + INT / level. I include lots of skill checks as a DM - and I like to give my players opportunities for creative use. 2 a level doesn't cut it for that purpose.

The nice part about my system (in my own biased reckoning, of course) is that it allows skillmonkeys to be better skillmonkeys while still allowing non-skillmonkeys to contribute better. Sure, a real powergaming group might be able to adventure without a rogue, but they were always able to before. It does unfortunately overpower the Factotum and Beguiler in comparison to the Rogue, as those 2 less skill points a level become less important when you have less to spend them on - but let's face it. The Factotum and the Beguiler are incredibly well-designed classes. And everybody should play them. They're probably my favorite two base classes EVER, though, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

My class list for fighters (and barbarians) would look like this:

Acrobatics
Athletics
Craft
Handle Animal
Intimidate
Perception
Profession
Sense Motive
Streetwise
Survival

They may not be diplomats, but they're rough and tumble socialites and can get the job done when necessary. Paladins would add Diplomacy, Heal and Knowledge (religion); Rangers would add Knowledge (nature), Heal, Stealth, and Infiltration. Rogues are still the wand-activating, trapfinding, lock-opening, pocket-picking wunderkinds, but now martial classes can contribute something more than just "Me smash."

Addendum:

Telonius, I support the mesh of dungeoneering and architecture into something like Knowledge (exploration and structures), though this does allow one to both know how to build a bridge and identify a mind flayer with the same skill. But there are more disparate uses of other skills already.

Open Lock and Disable Device as a Sabotage skill? I was thinking about it. Both are ostensibly about fine mechanical tinkering, whether they be tripwires and pressure plates or tumblers and hairpins. But Sabotage doesn't sound right to me - Mechanical Manipulation maybe? Thievery doesn't cut it, either, as it potentially overlaps with Sleight of Hand. But you know what? All three skills involve manual dexterity and keen observation, so if you chose to combine Disable Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand into one "Thievery" skill, I wouldn't disagree. I prefer to keep at least Sleight of Hand separate personally, as the difference between that one and the other two is much bigger.

[horseboy]

Well, you have to remember that ranks in skills go beyond the "I learned how to do this playing hide and seek" thing. Even one rank in a skill represents some sort of professional, dedicated training.

That's one of those things where "rules says one thing, mechanics say another". This is painfully obvious in things like Knowledge skills, where you're not allowed (by RAW) to even roll unless they've got at least one rank in it.

[Chronos]

You're allowed to make Knowledge rolls untrained; you're just restricted to low DCs when you do so. And as for hide-and-seek, that's reflected in the fact that Hide isn't trained-only. Everyone has played hide-and-seek as a kid, so the base level of 0 ranks already encompasses the amount of hiding skill (not very much) you get from that experience.

[ericgrau]

Consolidated Skill Systems: There are already a lot of consolidated skill systems out there. There's one in my sig even (and a summary of some 3.5 rules including all skill rules no less). The original thread on it is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1017161) if you're interested. The thread also explains which skills got folded into which and why, whereas my sig stuff just tells you the info you need to play with it like skill rules and class skills.

Skill Points: I gave out the same number but made ranks cost twice as much. You could also give out half as many points and have ranks cost the same. That's because most skills I had covered 2 essential old skills, sometimes a 3rd or 4th that's not so popular (like forgery), sometimes only 1 so you're paying more. In your case you might want to charge triple since you give so many skills. But OTOH that discourages people from picking overlapping skills b/c it's kinda a waste. You may want to give a discount for putting ranks in an overlapping skill, until it has as many ranks as the original skill. Skill modifiers, versatility and DCs remain the same, so as for balance you should be more or less ok.

Cross-Class Skills: you should really look at the skill rules and all the DCs. Most are fixed DCs and even the low DCs are useful at all levels. So low modifier skills are still useful. Taking 10's and taking 20's also helps. The real problem comes when DMs focus on spot/listen and maybe a couple thievery skills and nothing else, then sets the DCs according to player level, or makes opposed checks when their shouldn't be. Like spot vs. hide when the monster isn't even hiding or has no cover to hide behind. So it's actually DC 0 plus modifiers, if any. And people like you and me and certain characters without any ranks or wis mod aren't blind to high level monsters for some strange reason. Ranks are only for extraordinary applications, not to see the monster who just shows up with nothing to hide behind. Even 50 feet away (that's DC 5). That's part of why I made the cheat sheets in my sig: so people can easily look up the proper uses of skills during a game. They cover other actions you might do in a session too.

[horseboy]

You're allowed to make Knowledge rolls untrained; you're just restricted to low DCs when you do so. Is this something they "expanded" on outside the PHB? I remember reading it and realizing how incredibly stupid it was that a shepard couldn't mechanically tell the differeance between a wolf, deer or black bear, especially since a bear is a DC 13 roll.
And as for hide-and-seek, that's reflected in the fact that Hide isn't trained-only. Everyone has played hide-and-seek as a kid, so the base level of 0 ranks already encompasses the amount of hiding skill (not very much) you get from that experience.Sure it says that, yet again, mechanically it doesn't fly. When I get talked into playing paintball I inevitably am out there in a white T-shirt because I didn't know I was going to go. That's so an unfavorable condition, compounded by Dex being my dump stat means I've got to be compensating for a -3 mod some how. Given that I've never been "professionally" or "trained" sneaky, the only place it could have come from would be Hide & Seek. This actually works out very similarly to your (I believe it was your, been a while) rebuttal of The Alexandrian's nonsense about everybody being a level 1 idiot munchkinized commoner.

[Theodoriph]

Athletics should not encompass any combination of swimming, jumping and climbing.


Swimming, jumping and climbing have absolutely nothing to do with each other. A good swimmer is not a good jumper, nor a good climber. The same can be said for a good jumper and a good climber.


Combining skills is bad enough, since it reduces the purpose of skill points...but combining skills that have very little to do with each other is even worse.

It also detracts from the game. One of the advantages, as a DM, of having different skills for things like swimming, climbing and jumping, is that I can throw a variety of challenges at my players without having to deal with some overpowered catch-all skill that combines all three. The same can be said for other "combined" skills. There are very few core skills that are not worth having.

[Cheesegear]

Everytime I see it, I still think combining Listen and Spot into one skill is wrong...Your eyes and ears are not the same.

That's about all I have to say on the matter. I wish I could contribute more, but, the above posters have already done that.

[Theodoriph]

Upon some reflection, an alternative is to create a comprehensive (and homebrewed) list of synergy bonuses.

Instead of, for instance, combining Knowledge Architecture and Engineering (since they really are very different things)....then give a +2 synergy bonus to Knowledge Architecture if they have 5 ranks in Knowledge Engineering, a +3 if they have 10 ranks, and a +4 if they have 15 ranks....or something of the sort. :smalltongue:

[TheCountAlucard]

How the Hell does one convince an inanimate object they're actually a wizard anyways?

You put on a fake beard and wear a long, pointy hat. Yes, even the women. Yes, it's in the rules. You just haven't found it yet. Keep looking, it's there. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Everytime I see it, I still think combining Listen and Spot into one skill is wrong...Your eyes and ears are not the same.

That's about all I have to say on the matter. I wish I could contribute more, but, the above posters have already done that.

The idea is that anyone who puts ranks in spots almost always puts them in listen as well, and it's a bit of an oddity for someone to be eagled eyed but not have at least somewhat keen ears. Same for a lot of the other combos, like hide & move silently. The idea is to make skills easier to deal with so that you don't have to look down a list of over 30 skills. I can see some issues with climbing, jumping and swimming being together. And putting search with spot & listen. I dunno what to do about that. Maybe it's a tradeoff, maybe it's an idea killer.

[Draz74]

The idea is that anyone who puts ranks in spots almost always puts them in listen as well, and it's a bit of an oddity for someone to be eagled eyed but not have at least somewhat keen ears.

For the record, I've had a number of characters like that. Or the other way around. I don't find it particularly illogical. On the other hand, I've halfway come around to the idea of combining the two anyway, and just abstracting the difference. Two characters could both have a Notice check of +8, with one who usually "notices" things with his eyes, the other "noticing" things with his ears.

[RandomFellow]

Is this something they "expanded" on outside the PHB? I remember reading it and realizing how incredibly stupid it was that a shepard couldn't mechanically tell the differeance between a wolf, deer or black bear, especially since a bear is a DC 13 roll.

Untrained

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

DC 13 would be avbove the limit. But a shepherd probably would have Knowledge (Nature) 1 and therefore could make the check. :P

[ericgrau]

^ You could know that wolves exist and roughly what they look like without knowing much about them. Just like every Joe commoner knows what about a dragon looks like but couldn't tell you that a pseudo-dragon or T-rex wasn't one. Or that that's a gold dragon and not a "yellow dragon". And the shepherd has profession (shepherd) or other basic knowledge. So he may not know or care that a wolf has a trip attack or that it's really a wild dog not a wolf, but he knows roughly what one looks like and that he should fight it off. Remember that knowledge represents special education, learned in school or through research for example. All skills represent extraordinary abilities, for that matter. Anyone can jump, hide, see, hear or w/e without any special training; skills just mean you do it like a pro. Which is why I hate it when DMs ask for high DC checks for simple uses of these. The DC is negligible, you succeed, you probably don't even need to roll.


Back to consolidation. I dunno, now I'm starting to second guess consolidating skills. On one hand it makes things easier with skills that often come together anyway, on the other it leaves less room for choice. Paying double when you sometimes get 3 or 4 skills errs on the side of still being able to do everything you want, but it lets you do other things that maybe you shouldn't be able to do.

I suppose the real question is what's the best way to get the most out of all the skills from the players? Can you get enough familiarity with the existing system and make it work, as both a player and DM? Or is making it easier worth the compromise? Can you expect players & DMs to actually read all the different rules when selecting skills? Or do you say: "Nope, none of you put ranks in knowledge(local) since you had no idea it'd tell you so much about all these humanoid monsters you're fighting". Or, at the same time, how do you accommodate people saving skill points to do just enough in one area, instead of maxing something out? With athletics, how do you put just enough ranks in swim to tread water while putting just enough ranks in climb to climb the surfaces you want to? Or make the DCs for the simple tumble checks you want while making only the balance DCs you want. Or do you just force someone who doesn't want to max out to not max out two or three things?

[Gnorman]

It's perfectly reasonable to say that a lot of these skill combinations are reductive, nonsensical, or illogical. An Olympic swimmer isn't a mountain climber by virtue of being equally athletic. But it's reasonable to assume that someone who is decently athletic might be DECENT at swimming, climbing, and jumping. They're specialized skills, but I prefer to suspend my disbelief and just make it a catch-all thing.

The point is, it makes the skill system EASIER. Some DMs like the complexity, and that's their prerogative. I personally like to have a group where every skill is covered in some way - it allows for different characters to shine in different situations.

It also allows for higher-powered skillmonkeys, a fix I personally like to see.

[mangashogun]

3.5 Skill System Reform


Forgery? Decipher script? Really? They might be fun for some fluff, but in the end, which skill monkey really wants to put his valuable ranks in them?


So let’s mash them all together and gain these categories:

Acrobatics (Balance/ Jump/ Tumble/ Climb/…
Arcana (Spellcraft/ Decipher script/ …
Athletics (Jump/ Swim/ Climb/ Ride/…
Deceit ( Disguise/ Bluff/ Forgery/ …
Nature (Survival/ Handle Animal/ Use Rope/ …
Perception (Listen/ Spot/ …
Social (Diplomacy/ Sense Motive/ …
Stealth (Hide/ Move Silently/ …
Streetwise (Gather Info/ Intimidate/ …
Thievery (Disable Device/ Escape Artist/ Open Lock/ Sleight of hand/ Use Rope/ Search/ …
Use magic device


A.K.A. 4th Edition

[Gnorman]

A.K.A. 4th Edition

AKA what 4ED got RIGHT, in my opinion.

[Juggernaut1981]

Here's my own build of a 3.5-style Skill System.

Ancient Languages:Read & Write, Speak if you're really lucky. =<3pts is common words, 4-6pts is majority of all texts, 6pts is "Hello Professor of Mesopotamian Dialects"
Appraise: How much is stuff/service worth? Is this thing a fake?
Athletics: I'm fit and can do strong stuff (Climb, Jump, Swim)
Awareness: A know what's going on around me. People don't sneak up on me (Listen & Spot but for SHORT distances)
Balance: Like it says, balancing.
Contort: Squeeze in and out of things, hide in small spaces, etc
Craft: Making stuff, including fakes (replaces Forgery for "goods")
Decipher: Understanding the true meaning of a text
Disable: Open locks, sabotage machinery, cause traps to fail
Focus: When everyone is trying to cut your head off, can you focus on the task at hand? (Spellcasters but also usable for other skill checks)
Handle Animals: Dogs ain't people people. No Diplomacy checks on dogs.
Intimidate: Like it says, intimidating others.
Investigate: Finding things out by talking to other people
Knowledge: Book-learning, including "Magic Theory" (aka Knowledge Arcana)
Language: 1pt = buy food, get house, go to shops. 2pt = talk to professional capably, you can read & write. 3pt = speak it like a local and write it like a scribe
Lie: What you use when you don't want to tell the truth (incl. hiding the truth)
Medicine: Like it says, keeping people alive without magic
Negotiate: Convincing others gently (aka. Opposite of Intimidating them)
Perception: Is what I'm seeing/hearing a load of crap? (aka. Opposite of Lie)
Perform: Public performance arts (music, drama, oratory, poetry, comedy, being a jackass for cash)
Profession: Lawyer, architect, accountant, sage, guide, engineer, tinkerer...
Research: Finding things out by looking in books
Ride: Not falling off horses and things
Search: Finding things
Sleight of Hand: Stealing things, doing magic tricks, shell games
Spellcraft: How well you "do" magic instead of "know" magic (Practical Magic instead of Knowledge Arcana which is Theoretical Magic)
Stealth: Not getting seen, heard or caught.
Survival: Living without the need to buy stuff (hunting, making shelter, getting food, etc)
Tumble: Just cause you can walk a rope doesn't mean you can tumble without hurting your head...
Use Ropes: Sailors can do more with rope than just run it 27-times over the top of the caravan... like I would.

There are Armour Check Penalties (or their equivalent). A few of them give the player the option to modify them with one of two skills. There are training requirements for people wanting to do fancy things (more elaborate sleight of hand than pulling a coin out from behind a 5-year-old's ear for example)

[sonofzeal]

Honestly, I think the reverse might be nice - to use GURPS skills (minus the combat-themed ones), with, of course, drastically increased skillpoints to compensate.

For those not familiar - GURPS has skills for everything. Intimidation and Interrogation are separate (but synergistic), and there's also Criminology, Cryptography, and Detect Lies. You can take ranks in Robotic Engineering as opposed to Electronics or Clockwork (or Weird Science), or train in Ritual Magic as opposed to Religious Ritual or Occultism. Heck, there's even a Freight Handling skill, and my first GURPS character took ranks in it, too! And the system is set up explicitly so that if you have a related skill to the one needed, then you can use it instead at a small penalty. For example, if you don't have the Interrogation skill, you can roll against Intimidation at a -3 penalty, against Psychology at a -4 penalty, or against your Int stat at a -5 penalty. And if Intimidate-3 is better than your basic one-rank skill in it, then you use that as your starting point instead, allowing pairs of related skills to boost eachother up nicely.

In short, rather than try to cover everything with a few broad skills, the system is designed so that you get to choose exactly what your character specializes in, to what degree they specialize in it, and how that's going to affect areas related to your core expertise. The system makes it easy to be a generalist, and to be a specialist, depending on what you want.



...yeah, I have my problems with GURPS, and 3.5e D&D is my game of choice, but the skill system is way awesome.

[Gnorman]

Honestly, I think the reverse might be nice - to use GURPS skills (minus the combat-themed ones), with, of course, drastically increased skillpoints to compensate.

For those not familiar - GURPS has skills for everything. Intimidation and Interrogation are separate (but synergistic), and there's also Criminology, Cryptography, and Detect Lies. You can take ranks in Robotic Engineering as opposed to Electronics or Clockwork (or Weird Science), or train in Ritual Magic as opposed to Religious Ritual or Occultism. Heck, there's even a Freight Handling skill, and my first GURPS character took ranks in it, too! And the system is set up explicitly so that if you have a related skill to the one needed, then you can use it instead at a small penalty. For example, if you don't have the Interrogation skill, you can roll against Intimidation at a -3 penalty, against Psychology at a -4 penalty, or against your Int stat at a -5 penalty. And if Intimidate-3 is better than your basic one-rank skill in it, then you use that as your starting point instead, allowing pairs of related skills to boost eachother up nicely.

In short, rather than try to cover everything with a few broad skills, the system is designed so that you get to choose exactly what your character specializes in, to what degree they specialize in it, and how that's going to affect areas related to your core expertise. The system makes it easy to be a generalist, and to be a specialist, depending on what you want.


Yeah, GURPS is... freakishly detailed. Problem is, there's not a ton of call to use a lot of skills in D&D. No need for Criminology (arguably not invented yet), Clockwork Mechanics... Electrical Engineering... etc. Not that a medieval society couldn't have a broad array of applicable skills, and Eberron and Ravenloft arguably have some of the more specialized sciences operating within them. At least in... say, Breland and Zilargo or Lamordia and Dementlieu. Go go Alanik Ray.

While I agree that GURPS skills are AWESOME, my main goal with D&D is simplification. Why make spot and listen checks or hide AND move silently checks when you can make perception and stealth checks? Half the rolling! Makes DM's life easier (which, as I DM 95% of the time, is my primary concern.)

In a skill-heavy game, though, I definitely support more skills rather than less. But if you're doing a kick-in-the-door dungeon-crawl, merge. Not much call for Forgery in there. Regardless of the setting, I ALWAYS use Perception and Stealth.

[horseboy]

Untrained

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

DC 13 would be above the limit. But a shepherd probably would have Knowledge (Nature) 1 and therefore could make the check. :PAnd recognizing a wolf is a DC 11, that's what it was. Especially given Knowledge: Nature was cross classed for commoners, so for a shepard to reliably (take 10) identify a bear he'd have to be 2nd level. I knew it was something stupid.
In practice I don't have a problem with that as I've had to deal with plenty of City Folk who couldn't tell a fox from a wolf from a bobcat if they were doing the can-can with placards with their names on it.
The problem becomes "What is 'common knowledge'?" A fighter who grew up on the "mean streets" is going to have a very different set of "common knowledge" than a fighter that grew up in a house on top of a hill outside of a small town. Mr. Thugnificent is going to be able to recognize bad neighbourhoods and know that obliviousness is an urban survival technique. While the redneck is going to know that any tree a bear can't climb they could just push over, so the climbing, it does nothing! You can either create a list of things that's "common knowledge" for each character, or you can just use one list of what's what and "open up" a couple of skills as "bonus" class skills at 1st level (hence the 4 ranks) to reflect what is "common knowledge" for said character. Which answered the OP's query about making cross-classed skills more available for players. Or in short, it's an attempt at KISSing into 3.5 what other systems would refer to as "background", "adolescent", or "apprenticeship" skills.
Still not sure if I'm clear, as long nights at work and a short days of sleep lately has made me fuzzy headed.

[Nai_Calus]

What I've done for my campaign is combine some skills, dump some skills, and drop class skills altogether:

Acrobatics - DEX - Check Penalty
Athletics - STR - Check Penalty
Concentration - CON
Craft - INT
Decipher Script - INT
Disable Device - INT - Check Penalty
Disguise - CHA
Escape Artist - DEX - Check Penalty
Forgery - INT
Gather Information - CHA
Handle Animal - CHA
Heal - WIS
Knowledge - INT
Negotiation - CHA
Perception - WIS
Perform - CHA
Ride - DEX
Sense Motive - WIS
Sleight of Hand - DEX - Check Penalty
Spellcraft - INT
Stealth - DEX - Check Penalty
Survival - WIS
Use Magic Device - CHA

The altered/combined skills are as follows:

Acrobatics - Combination of Balance and Tumble
Athletics - Combination of Climb, Jump and Swim
Disable Device - Open Lock has been folded into this
Negotiation - Combination of Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate
Perception - Combination of Listen, Search and Spot
Sleight of Hand - Use Rope has been folded into this.

Profession was dumped, Speak Language is a feat(1+INT mod languages). Appraise is a function of Knowledge: (Whatever) now.

Skillpoints were left the same. 2+INT still seems a little low for the classes stuck with it, but fewer skills and ditching cross class skills helps. I've also dropped synergy bonuses. They were fiddly, led to people taking a bunch of stuff they might not normally take for the bonuses, and half the time people can't even remember to put their *racial* skill bonuses on their sheets, nevermind the synergy bonuses. Hell, I had a character who I thought for ages had +18 Diplomacy who turned out to actually have +20 because I was forgetting the Sense Motive bonus.

It makes it a little less painful to have something you have solely for background/characterization. Nobody's really done anything abusive with it yet.

It doesn't fix it entirely, but it makes it suck a lot less so far.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Say, if you're doing Skill System reform, have you thought about tweaking the mechanics?

I mean, Forgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/forgery.htm) is ridiculous. Only Rogues have it as a class skill, and you need ranks in Forgery to detect a forgery. At most your average NPC will get INT+4 on his check, meaning that the Rogue with INT+Skill Ranks will sweep the floor with them.

At least Aristocrats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/aristocrat.htm) have Forgery as a class skill - otherwise a 5th level Beguiler could make himself a Duke within a week!

[ericgrau]

Actually I took care of the forgery thing in my own system. I shoveled the counter check into perception, and did likewise for incomplete or garbled text. I did a couple other minor mechanical tweaks, but I tried to avoid changes for the most part.

One thing that's been bugging me for my system is appraise and knowledge(architecture & engineering). Now it takes multiple craft skills to cover these, which makes them prohibitively expensive to spend points in. I think I might lower the DCs for appraise & knowledge purposes to counter this. And it kinda makes sense since apprentices would learn the knowledge about the craft before learning how to craft it well. OTOH then I have to rebalance untrained checks, which makes this kinda messy. I dunno, I'm still thinking about it. Maybe if I could find a couple other skills to fold appraise / knowledge (A&E) into.