Problems from the destruction of a/the god(s)

[krossbow]

Speculating here; is there specifically anything really bad that would happen were one or more of the Gods in D&D to kick the bucket and not be replaced?



Asking this because half of them are really pretty crappy individuals; even the good ones seem more focused on themselves than their followers. And half of their domains are really fairly unimportant things; i doubt that the world will fall apart if the god of Tyranny or hate for example dissapear, or even if the god of the moon was gone.





Is there any stated reason for their existence in the flow of the world?

[RandomFellow]

As long as you loosely interpret (e.g. I get 'Shadow & Illusion' Domains 'cause I worship Illusions o0) where Divine Magic comes from you can have a No God world without issue.

[Tempest Fennac]

It depends on how much influence the gods have, and what they do; for instance, Pelor is the sun god, so if he died, it may mean the sun would cease to function, but if Yeenoghu disappeared, it probably wouldn't affect how steriotypical Gnolls act (they could just switch to worshiping the ideals of killing and eating other humanoid races easily). If all the gods died, it would be a huge problem for Clerics unless you allow Clerics of causes, in which case, it wouldn't make much of a difference for them (they would still have influence in society due to their healing magic).

[krossbow]

Just musing on things; with the state of the gods, i'm having a hard time finding reasons (besides moral ones) of why mortal heroes shouldn't kill the gods to put the destiny of the world into mortal hands.

[Tempest Fennac]

There may not be any. Are things likely to change without the gods as far as actual "things" like the oceans, weather or sun are concerned, though? (Even the moon god dying could have disasterous consequences due to the effect the moon has on tides.)

[Learnedguy]

Just musing on things; with the state of the gods, i'm having a hard time finding reasons (besides moral ones) of why mortal heroes shouldn't kill the gods to put the destiny of the world into mortal hands.

I always do that if I get a chance:smalltongue:

[Kris Strife]

Isnt this a WotC setting already?

[Killer Angel]

Speculating here; is there specifically anything really bad that would happen were one or more of the Gods in D&D to kick the bucket and not be replaced?


It's all a matter of fluff. What kind of campaign do you want, and what kind of consequences there will be for the death of a God?
Maybe the Gods are literally immortal: they are the personification of a principle or a force of nature, so even if you destroy one of them, the same god is going to reborn, thanx to the laws of (your) universe.
Maybe the "Gods" are only ancient adventurers who gained the epic power, and so they can be killed (and replaced) without problems.
Once, i DM a campaign in which the (temporary) death of Corellion, caused the weakening of the space continuum, and the Prime material plane was at risk to be shattered and engulfed by the Elemental Planes.
And so on...

You can decide the setting you'd like more.

[bosssmiley]

Just musing on things; with the state of the gods, i'm having a hard time finding reasons (besides moral ones) of why mortal heroes shouldn't kill the gods to put the destiny of the world into mortal hands.

I think I see a fatal flaw in your master plan right there.

To whit: who would trust the world to a pack of deicides prepared to crawl to the top over the bodies of those who stand in their way? :smallwink:

[Narmoth]

Well, that depends on how you define replaced.
1st definition:
If the god dies and no one else takes his place (St.Cuhbert dies and no new god of law and retribution appears) another god would assimilate his sphere of influence (Hextor taking the retribution part, and Heironeus taking the law part)
Thus the god that assimilates the power becomes more powerful. And the evil gods would try more than the good gods to assimilate other gods domains. (You have this in 4th ed, where The Raven Queen and Orcus fight over the death domain)

2nd definition:
The god dies, but no one takes the domain or assimilates it. You then lack a divine overseer over the moon, or law, or tyranny (depending on which god dies). The domains agenda is thus less watched over, which could lead to things like:
- the moon dissapears from the sky or have wrong phases, panicking villagers all over the world (comet effect)
- the cause of law is neglected, leading to the decline of grand civilisations and the rise of smal chaotic entities of people
- tyrants get less divine suppourt, their domains crumble and the people they oppressed with an iron fist rise up more often, and with greater success

You could very well combine both effects, making the 2nd definition in force until a new god or gods consolidate (s) the sphere of influence

[VelvetThunder]

I had always thought that the True death of a god came from a lack of followers. That as faith in that particular god wanes so does its power. So if your goal was to kill off a god, You'd have to end worship of it to a considerable extent before it could be killed in such a way that it would not simply come back into being by the will of the people.

That aside... I'm all for God Battle. What better an opponent than one who creates the world and weaves the cosmos.

[dspeyer]

What the gods actually do (besides empowering clerics) is never made very clear. Read Hogfather for one perspective (actually, just read Hogfather -- it's very good).

Practically speaking, the destruction of a god would probably disempower an entire order of clerics (if it didn't backlash and kill them all). For the primary church of a region, it would seriously curtail healing. Since mundane medicine probably doesn't exist in DND (why would anyone bother), this could lead to rampant plagues like the historical dark ages.

[krossbow]

The issues just that, with the exception of a few of the more powerful gods such as mystra, none of the gods really do anything relating to their domain.


I mean for example, its not like People would stop curb stomping one another if Hextor kicked the bucket, and I doubt people would be overcome with love and forget to punish criminals if Cuthbert died.
While a few Gods have domains that could possibly harm the populace, it almost seems more like a bluff at times than a true job.




Since 4.0 makes it much easier to off the gods than 3.0 or 3.5 I'm just trying to see if there are any universal reasons not to do so.

[Eakin]

I always just assumed some other entity would ascend or pop into being to fill the power vacuum. If other gods didn't take over the domain first.

My take is that the gods just kinda ARE. Existing for no deeper meaning or purpose than their own ontological inertia

[Kylarra]

Since 4.0 makes it much easier to off the gods than 3.0 or 3.5 I'm just trying to see if there are any universal reasons not to do so.Well there's a pretty realistic reason that has to do with status quo. Say you killed a god and usurped their power. The other gods are going to notice, see, gods may not like each other all that much, but when some outsider comes up and kills a god? That would make them take notice. You're likely to find yourself with a whole host of gods on your metaphorical doorstep ready to kill you to prevent you from doing it again.

[krossbow]

If the point is to Usurp their power yes. I'm thinking if you just leave it be, and let the world itself handle its own issues.


Basically, killing the god and making sure the seat stays empty basically. Kind of the view of letting the world handle itself and getting rid of the "supervisors."

I'm wondering if any of the settings have anything written into the laws of the universe requiring a god to fill a position.

[Kylarra]

Uh, after god 2 or 3, you're going to be in the same position as if you'd tried to usurp their power (possibly after god one depending on who is running the campaign), ie the rest of the pantheon is going to come down on you.

To use a real world analogy, think of the gods like the mafia. If you kill one of them, the rest of the mafia may not have particularly liked that one, but they're still going to make you pay for your hubris.

[Lamech]

Well the cleric's would lose their power if they worshipped the deceased god. Depending on your interperation of what gods do any number of bad things could happen, as well. On a side note unless you break their soul they have a high probablity of coming back from the dead; then killing you.

[Kylarra]

I dunno if clerics would necessarily lose power. By RAW you don't have to worship a particular deity, so even if you're worshipping a now defunct deity, you'd still have the access to spells et al (of course specific campaigns and DMs can and generally do say otherwise to prevent weird mishmashes of domains).

[Thajocoth]

In 4e, it's possible for an adventurer to become a god after level 30 as their Epic Destiny... And they do mention some gods as having died in the past (Such as Io and Tyr). So I see the list of gods as ever-changing and impossible to remove permanently.

Though, in my campaign, the players don't know this yet but...

I have the gods held at bay by the threat of death. An ever-ongoing ritual in a certain region that feeds off divine power and will pull it from anything that comes too close, even a god, stripping their power, bringing them down to a more mortal level. Several are watching closely for if the one maintaining that ritual ever steps just outside it's bounds as he's not a god...

Since the ritual absorbs most of the miracles and such sent to the area, many think their gods have forsaken them. Clerics can still exist and heal and stuff, but only minor miracles can occur. This has led to things like the following:
A - A Deva successfully died in the region.
B - A very large pack of Gnolls asked Yeenoghu for great strength before a battle against 7 armies that had them surrounded. They didn't receive this strength (despite the miracle being sent to them), so they were quickly defeated and are now nomadic scavengers that think Yeenoghu forsook them.
C - The Drow think Lolth forsook them, so they've started trying to pray to various other gods (to no avail).
D - Far less NPCs mention the gods... Phrases like "May the benevolent gods watch over you." and such are far rarer.
E - A group of lawful good paladins of Torm, an order created to protect The Dome in a Jedi-ish sort of way, wind up championing torture and genocide and they don't fall.


So, the examples above of what I'm doing in my campaign with greatly diminished divine influence are the sorts of things I'd think would occur in the cases of dead gods, though not forever, as somebody, whether another god or an adventurer, would take that god's old seat.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think one important thing is being forgotten. If a bunch of PC's kill a god, then the other gods are going to be very angry at the mortals involved, unless they all thought the god who was killed was a prick.

I'm reminded of the story of Adapa. He was a priest who went out fishing and when the South Wind started blowing and messed up his fishing trip, he cursed the South Wind and broke his wing. The gods were rightfully p*ssed at Adapa's insolence, and demanded he stand before them and be judged. One of the other gods whispered to Adapa what he was in for, and warned him not to eat or drink anything while there, since it was the bread and drink of death. Adapa did as he was told, but then the gods revealed that they had tricked him. The bread and drink was actually the bread and drink of life, and in not tasting it, Adapa had doomed all of mankind to mortality. Later, when Adapa went out fishing after the incident, the South Wind capsized Adapa's boat, causing him to drown as punishment for his injury.

Gods can be vicious bastards when crossed, and doing harm to one of them will have the rest of them up in arms to punish the offender, and likely the offender's entire species.

[VelvetThunder]

Well the cleric's would lose their power if they worshipped the deceased god. Depending on your interperation of what gods do any number of bad things could happen, as well. On a side note unless you break their soul they have a high probablity of coming back from the dead; then killing you.

Worshipping a dead god... That makes me think of the Vestiges from Tome of Magic. Perhaps they would still function then, just in a different Fashion. I can't help but think of how cool it would be to bind Pelor as a Vestige though.

[Xuincherguixe]

I think one important thing is being forgotten. If a bunch of PC's kill a god, then the other gods are going to be very angry at the mortals involved, unless they all thought the god who was killed was a prick.

I'm reminded of the story of Adapa. He was a priest who went out fishing and when the South Wind started blowing and messed up his fishing trip, he cursed the South Wind and broke his wing. The gods were rightfully p*ssed at Adapa's insolence, and demanded he stand before them and be judged. One of the other gods whispered to Adapa what he was in for, and warned him not to eat or drink anything while there, since it was the bread and drink of death. Adapa did as he was told, but then the gods revealed that they had tricked him. The bread and drink was actually the bread and drink of life, and in not tasting it, Adapa had doomed all of mankind to mortality. Later, when Adapa went out fishing after the incident, the South Wind capsized Adapa's boat, causing him to drown as punishment for his injury.

Gods can be vicious bastards when crossed, and doing harm to one of them will have the rest of them up in arms to punish the offender, and likely the offender's entire species.

... So, you're argument is that the gods are bastards and you shouldn't try to kill them, because they'll be jerks about it?

Seems to me if the reason to not start offing gods is that they'll gang up on you that one should simply employ a better strategy.

[Narmoth]

Actually, I think the gods would think twice before attacking anyone powerful enough to kill a god. They would fear that he could kill at least a few of them before they get taken down. And everyone would fear that they would be one of those killed.
Since the gods are already not great at cooperation, I think they'd spend more time forging alliances and discussing tactics of taking you down, preferably by the use of minions, than attacking you in person

[Kylarra]

Actually, I think the gods would think twice before attacking anyone powerful enough to kill a god. They would fear that he could kill at least a few of them before they get taken down. And everyone would fear that they would be one of those killed.
Since the gods are already not great at cooperation, I think they'd spend more time forging alliances and discussing tactics of taking you down, preferably by the use of minions, than attacking you in personActually I don't think they would think twice about attacking someone who killed a god. They'd just make sure that they had the advantage before doing so. Remember, they've been gods for a long time and will have all the cheese they need to get their revenge, assuming you cheesed a victory somehow. If it is an unreplicatable epic battle, you might be able to get away with it, but then you're not going to be able to continue your goal of mass deicide.

[krossbow]

Then again, power does tend to breed laziness and sloth; A god who's been used to having his way with things might simply have the strategy of "Punch Things harder!"


Kind of like at the end of God of war 2 when Zeus goes into his big speech about stomping the threat before them, ect.






Though on the previous myth, yeah, thats not really a good example, given how pessimistic the view of the gods was of those people. Really, it just seemed to me that it would have ENCOURAGED people trying to kill them :smalltongue:





That being said, Hell, Mystra died, and that did screw up alot of things. But if someone like that can die without destroying the world completely, it stands to reason that none of the gods are truly unreplaceable.

[Ascension]

It entirely depends on the specific campaign setting. Some are more dependent on gods than others.

[Kylarra]

Then again, power does tend to breed laziness and sloth; A god who's been used to having his way with things might simply have the strategy of "Punch Things harder!" Or we could assume that they're not sitting on 20+ INT and WIS scores and degenerating into Half-Orc barbarian mode.


That being said, Hell, Mystra died, and that did screw up alot of things. But if someone like that can die without destroying the world completely, it stands to reason that none of the gods are truly unreplaceable.That's why the direct consequences of godslaying depends on the campaign. I could cite my campaign where destroying a god, even a lesser one, has the possible consequence of unmaking all creation. The relevance would be the same (read: none) but it's amusing nonetheless.

Also note:
Not necessary for continual function of the multiverse != slayable with impunity.

Knocking off a deity is going to have some severe consequences unless you've somehow garnered an alliance with someone of divine rank or an equivalent power level to shelter you from the resulting backlash. Note: cheese should not be able to do this as any gods will be able to do what you plan and better.

[Narmoth]

Actually I don't think they would think twice about attacking someone who killed a god. They'd just make sure that they had the advantage before doing so. Remember, they've been gods for a long time and will have all the cheese they need to get their revenge, assuming you cheesed a victory somehow. If it is an unreplicatable epic battle, you might be able to get away with it, but then you're not going to be able to continue your goal of mass deicide.

Yes, if you want to have a battle of HD and Min/maxing. But if you're campaign is more story oriented, where the players killed the god not because they had more hd and dmg ability than the god, I wouldn't simply cheese out a bunch of god-monsters to kill the players. That's what's falling rocks are for

[Archpaladin Zousha]

... So, you're argument is that the gods are bastards and you shouldn't try to kill them, because they'll be jerks about it?

Seems to me if the reason to not start offing gods is that they'll gang up on you that one should simply employ a better strategy.

Come on, they're gods! You don't think they're powerful enough and clever enough to outsmart a mere mortal. They have Intelligences in the upper 30's and 40's, where the most a mortal can muster is probably 26 tops.

What I'm trying to say is that the gods will not sit idly by and let one of their own be killed unless there's a very good reason for it (Say the god neglects his duties, or is a total jerk-off to the other gods.) But if that reason isn't there, and the mortals are just killing a god for giggles, then I'd say there's no better strategy to employ. The gods will likely all gang up on the mortals and possibly obliterate them. Unless you've got the firepower to take out the entire pantheon at once, you shouldn't go god-killing.

And IF you have enough firepower to kill off an entire pantheon, it'll likely spell the end of the world, since without the gods to run the various aspects of creation, everything spirals out of control, like that episode of Disney's Hercules where Hades tricks all the gods out of their memories, and the mortal world descends into chaos, snow in the summer, Spartan warriors sleeping on the job, dogs and cats livin' together, MASS HYSTERIA! because the only god who's still managing something is Hades (and Trivia, the god of where three roads meet, who assists Hercules in setting things right, and voiced by Ben Stein no less.)

[Narmoth]

You know, if you're players are "just killing a god for giggles", you've done something very wrong in your campaign, and however you stat your other gods, and whatever brilliant tactics and heavy cheese you employ with them, aren't going to remedy that.

[krossbow]

Come on, they're gods! You don't think they're powerful enough and clever enough to outsmart a mere mortal. They have Intelligences in the upper 30's and 40's, where the most a mortal can muster is probably 26 tops.

What I'm trying to say is that the gods will not sit idly by and let one of their own be killed unless there's a very good reason for it (Say the god neglects his duties, or is a total jerk-off to the other gods.) But if that reason isn't there, and the mortals are just killing a god for giggles, then I'd say there's no better strategy to employ. The gods will likely all gang up on the mortals and possibly obliterate them. Unless you've got the firepower to take out the entire pantheon at once, you shouldn't go god-killing.

And IF you have enough firepower to kill off an entire pantheon, it'll likely spell the end of the world, since without the gods to run the various aspects of creation, everything spirals out of control, like that episode of Disney's Hercules where Hades tricks all the gods out of their memories, and the mortal world descends into chaos, snow in the summer, Spartan warriors sleeping on the job, dogs and cats livin' together, MASS HYSTERIA! because the only god who's still managing something is Hades (and Trivia, the god of where three roads meet, who assists Hercules in setting things right, and voiced by Ben Stein no less.)



Thats the thing though; does the world truly spiral out of control without the gods? my query was if there was written consequences to such things. After all, if War only happens because the god of war exists, then we are literally nothing but puppets with only an illusion of free will.



As was stated quite well though, i guess it is just up to the DM. A dm can state it destroys the world or it does nothing. This topic just popped into my head since i've been playing Final fantasy 12 recently and half the characters keep repeating ad infinum about putting destiny back in the hands of mankind.

[Kylarra]

Yes, if you want to have a battle of HD and Min/maxing. But if you're campaign is more story oriented, where the players killed the god not because they had more hd and dmg ability than the god, I wouldn't simply cheese out a bunch of god-monsters to kill the players. That's what's falling rocks are for... are you even reading my post? I said that if it were an epic battle you could probably get away with it once.


If it is an unreplicatable epic battle, you might be able to get away with it, but then you're not going to be able to continue your goal of mass deicide.

Cheese was only mentioned in the case of people using cheese to kill gods (pun-pun anyone?)


Remember, they've been gods for a long time and will have all the cheese they need to get their revenge, assuming you cheesed a victory somehow. Emphasis mine (though the words are mine anyway).

[Elurindel]

Just musing on things; with the state of the gods, i'm having a hard time finding reasons (besides moral ones) of why mortal heroes shouldn't kill the gods to put the destiny of the world into mortal hands.

That is actually the entire premise of my campaign. Except then my party has been taking whatever divine power it can get hold of. So far we've slain at least three Divine Rank 1 creatures

[Darth Stabber]

I've gm'd that kind of epic before, and It really makes you ponder the Theology of your campaign setting, and how different it is from the way different religions are today. A Christian and a Muslim argue Philophy it is about the same deity, whereas in D&D, You can worship Pelor and still know the vecna, and bahamut are still out there, it's just you don't agree with their philosphy.

Onto the issue of deicide, clerics, world ending catastrophe, and other leisure pursuits. My solution was that all clerics are really clerics of causes, just their cause happened to be that which the deity stood for. Favored souls received power from the gods, clerics from their belief in said gods. If the deity died the cleric would not be depowered by the lack of patron, but by a shaking of belief. If a cleric did not know that their deity had died, they would keep on casting, as would a cleric who accepted the death of their patron but still believed in what the deity stood for. Favored souls make a fort save( DC=20 +highest spell lvl they can cast) or die instantly, the survivors find themselves with out any abilities that do not work inside an AMF, and have to either find a new patron or just be in a sucky place.

The gods themselves under this model are mostly figure heads, they are powerful, and can interfere should the need arise, but are very hands off, they rely of Clerics, pallys, and favored souls to do the grunt work. Their death has about as much effect on the world as the death of a leader of a nation, causes chaos and a power vacuum, but doesn't unravel reality.

That's the model I use, feel free to use it in part or full in anyway you like.