3.5: The high-powered game

[ChaosDefender24]

Hey guys,



Well, I'm not sure whether I'm going to go through with this or not, but..
I offer to DM a game with level 5's. There's at least 2 guys participating, and maybe a girl (who isn't so familiar with the game, which is why I might tone it down a little).

One of the guys decides to play an anthropomorphic bat druid. The other guy decides to match him and play a glitterdust-tossing wizard. To make matters even more lulzy, the wizard gives the dr00d some of his money so that he can get a monk's belt.


How do I provide a challenge to these guys without steamrolling them altogether?? It gets so hard to judge.

[RandomFellow]

I'd suggest getting a copy of their sheets (w/ spells prepared usually) and running a test encounter or two against them.

Only way to be sure imo.

Also, have the monsters focus (unless they are mindless/stupid) the optimizers instead of the less optimized player.

[Quietus]

Hey guys,



Well, I'm not sure whether I'm going to go through with this or not, but..
I offer to DM a game with level 5's. There's at least 2 guys participating, and maybe a girl (who isn't so familiar with the game, which is why I might tone it down a little).

One of the guys decides to play an anthropomorphic bat druid. The other guy decides to match him and play a glitterdust-tossing wizard. To make matters even more lulzy, the wizard gives the dr00d some of his money so that he can get a monk's belt.


How do I provide a challenge to these guys without steamrolling them altogether?? It gets so hard to judge.

It's easy. Say NO to the anthropomorphic bat druid. You don't HAVE to allow people to play crazy things, you know. And then limit them to buying things worth x amount of their total wealth, rather than spending it all on a monk's belt.

Also, talk to them. remind them "Hey guys, you're going to make the new girl feel like crap. Could you try toning it down a little?"

If they refuse, then have some enemies they come across have big one-shot moves. The enemy leader? He's a paladin/blackguard/something else with Smite ability, who targets the Wizard the moment said Wizard pops a glitterdust on his minions. As for the druid, he isn't high enough level yet to become a true zilla, and he's trying to pull cheese; Don't hesitate to drop a save-or-suck on him. Oh, he likes to Entangle everything? I'll be damned if that Blackguard that just wiped his wizard buddy doesn't have a druid partner, too... who also happens to like Entangle.

Then, give the girl a chance to escape.

[Darrin]

How do I provide a challenge to these guys without steamrolling them altogether?? It gets so hard to judge.

Sounds like a good opportunity for the Ed Greenwood Maneuver: Kill a few gawds, toss all the other gawds down onto the prime material, and the entire campaign world is plunged into an Anti-Magic Field where only large-breasted women with a fetish for dirty old men can cast spells.

[ChaosDefender24]

In case I didn't make it clear enough in the original post, I am well aware of the option of disallowing the characters.

What I'm more interested in is making it work once it starts. And I'd also like to avoid a fight-fire-with-fire if necessary, sure I'll litter the dungeon with wizards as well, but since I have manuals of monsters that I can tweak, I would prefer to do something more novel.

[woodenbandman]

It's easy. Say NO to the anthropomorphic bat druid. You don't HAVE to allow people to play crazy things, you know. And then limit them to buying things worth x amount of their total wealth, rather than spending it all on a monk's belt.

Also, talk to them. remind them "Hey guys, you're going to make the new girl feel like crap. Could you try toning it down a little?"

If they refuse, then have some enemies they come across have big one-shot moves. The enemy leader? He's a paladin/blackguard/something else with Smite ability, who targets the Wizard the moment said Wizard pops a glitterdust on his minions. As for the druid, he isn't high enough level yet to become a true zilla, and he's trying to pull cheese; Don't hesitate to drop a save-or-suck on him. Oh, he likes to Entangle everything? I'll be damned if that Blackguard that just wiped his wizard buddy doesn't have a druid partner, too... who also happens to like Entangle.

Then, give the girl a chance to escape.

...what? That's not a good idea. You're basically telling them by doing this that you hate them.

If they're going to make one person in the party useless and weak/etc, simply talk to them out of character before the game starts. Say "Hey, look, I know you want to play X. But these people aren't going to have much fun if you dominate the encounters. So why don't you either tone down your characters or help them out with theirs, so that everyone can play?"

It's not that you have to challenge these 2 guys. You have to challenge all the people, but you have to make sure that everyone is balanced with each other. If they help the other people with their builds and everyone is this powerful, then you're in a good place.

Besides that, you'll probably have to ambush them. Dispel their buffs, catch them flat-footed, do something. You can't just throw Durk the Ogre at them and give them enough time to cast spells.

[lsfreak]

Roleplaying situations instead of rollplaying situations. They're stuck in a city under siege and have to do negotiation-type stuff. The only thing glitterdust will do is piss off the level 10 bodyguards, and the anthrobat is shunned, feared or seen as nothing more than a pet and risks death by speaking in front of a noble. Now said third player potentially has a chance to shine in noncombat situations, even if the combat is dominated by the others.

That said, you still won't be able to challenge them in combat without making the new player even more useless than she would already be.

[ericgrau]

Hey guys,



Well, I'm not sure whether I'm going to go through with this or not, but..
I offer to DM a game with level 5's. There's at least 2 guys participating, and maybe a girl (who isn't so familiar with the game, which is why I might tone it down a little).

One of the guys decides to play an anthropomorphic bat druid. The other guy decides to match him and play a glitterdust-tossing wizard. To make matters even more lulzy, the wizard gives the dr00d some of his money so that he can get a monk's belt.


How do I provide a challenge to these guys without steamrolling them altogether?? It gets so hard to judge.

Don't let the druid use gear, like monk's belt, in shapechanged form. Argue that it doesn't fit or that it's just plain game breaking, and if you shapechange while wearing it the rules say it melds into your new form and is temporarily disabled. That rule's probably there to prevent this kind of abuse.

Blind creatures aren't out of a fight. Anyone that attacks them in melee immediately gives away their position. A listen check (no action required) lets him know someone is "over there somewhere" and adding +20 to the DC let's him know which square that someone is in. Someone fighting, running, charging, etc. gets a -20 to their move silently, and moving at normal speed (not half) gives a -5. The DC to hear a verbal component of a spell is always 0 (no whispering), so DC 20 to pinpoint the caster's location/square. The monster only knows the creature's location when it does the action; if it moves and it fails its next listen check then it's not sure. If the monster picks the right square, he still has a 50% miss chance on his attack (if he picks the wrong square, he automatically misses). Once the monster finds the target, grappling might be a good idea to keep a lock on him, depending on how high his AC is and how martial the target is (a successful AoO disrupts the grapple) and how good the monster's grapple mod is. Also makes sense fluffwise to grab someone and not let go if you can't see and if he isn't wielding a pointy object you're afraid of.

Alternatively the monster can just run away. Blind creatures simply move at half speed and they have a rough idea which way's which from the DC -10 sound of battle. Glitterdust only lasts a few rounds. Or he or another monster might have a scroll or potion of remove blindness/deafness at very high levels.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't let the druid use gear, like monk's belt, in shapechanged form. Argue that it doesn't fit or that it's just plain game breaking, and if you shapechange while wearing it the rules say it melds into your new form and is temporarily disabled. That rule's probably there to prevent this kind of abuse.While maybe RaI, that is definitely not RaW unless the Druid is stupid enough to shift while wearing them. By 6th level, he can be shaped from dawn until dusk. Befroe breaking camp in the mornings, he drops his gear, Wildshapes, then the Wizard puts it back on. Magic Items automatically resize to fit, other than weapons and armor. The example given is a Beholder wearing Rings on it's eyestalks. A belt on a cat seems downright reasonable after that, doesn't it. :smallwink:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that the Anthromorphic Bat should not be an option. Nobody ever picks that race for any reason but its superior numbers, plus there's not even a 3.5 update for it. There are plenty of more reasonable races to use for a Druid, and his character will still be extremely powerful.

The Wizard probably won't be much of a problem, as long as he stays away from the really broken stuff like Shrink Item. If he does start to be a problem, it can probably be handled with pacing.

Tell the players that their characters did not start out with X amount of gold, they started out with gear appropriate to their level which is valued at that amount. That gear was obtained over a long series of adventures, therefore no item can be worth more than half of that. If they want to sell their gear at half value and pool their wealth for better items, that's their choice, but otherwise there's no way either would be able to have a Monk's Belt.

Whatever the girl decides to make, you could probably make the game cater to her character's strengths. You'll never have to worry about making the other two characters feel useless, so make sure she has fun with the game and it should work out.

[Kroy]

*Snip*

So what? DMs are allowed to say "We're playing by RAI, not strict RAW."

[Quietus]

...what? That's not a good idea. You're basically telling them by doing this that you hate them.

If they're going to make one person in the party useless and weak/etc, simply talk to them out of character before the game starts. Say "Hey, look, I know you want to play X. But these people aren't going to have much fun if you dominate the encounters. So why don't you either tone down your characters or help them out with theirs, so that everyone can play?"

It's not that you have to challenge these 2 guys. You have to challenge all the people, but you have to make sure that everyone is balanced with each other. If they help the other people with their builds and everyone is this powerful, then you're in a good place.

Besides that, you'll probably have to ambush them. Dispel their buffs, catch them flat-footed, do something. You can't just throw Durk the Ogre at them and give them enough time to cast spells.

What, saying no to people who are outright trying to break the game is a bad idea? I have no qualms about saying "You're just trying to play that bat-thing for the bonus to wisdom. No.", or "Look, I know Wizards are CAPABLE of breaking the game. Please don't."

If those players continue to powergame just to spite you, and are RUINING THE NEW PERSON'S FUN... Yes, I will advocate them being eaten by a dragon. Oh, I'm sorry, does that ruin their fun? Then maybe they shouldn't be trying to overshadow the new person. She is NEW TO THE GAME. A fighter with a longsword (random example, but common to new players in my experience) running around doing 1d10+8 is NOT going to feel important next to "Area affect will save or be blinded.", or "Make a save against my DC 26 Baleful Polymorph. If you pass, here's a full attack from my bear/big cat/fleshraker". And that seems to be the route the OP's players are going.

They're level five. That's high enough that the druid and wizard can make any non-optimized character feel useless, but not so high as to make them invincible. Their buffs aren't game breaking yet, it's the Wizard's debuffs that make him a force for the time being, and the fact that the Druid's got a massive Wisdom modifier and a powerful companion. Buffs don't REALLY come into play until mid-levels, when the Druid gets Animal Growth, unless they have advanced warning of what they're fighting.

And even if they help the new player to create a powerful character, a new player isn't going to know how to play it well. I assume these other two do. Hell, I'd assume they cruise these forums, or the WoTC forums, because that's some very specific, standard-response stuff they're pulling. And that new player will get bored if their character comes down to "I charge, power attack, leap attack. 1d12+six quadrillion damage"... or be confused if they're going "So, how does my Cleric get awesome again? Cast Divine Power, Divine Retribution, and Holy *%*% before going into combat? Wait, wasn't there some fancy thing I could do to make that last all day?"

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So what? DMs are allowed to say "We're playing by RAI, not strict RAW."But even by RaI it's questionable. They could have said "Magic items cannot be used by a Druid in Wildshape". They could have said "Any magic item on a Wildshaped Druid is rendered non-functional". They didn't. They went out of their way to make it so magic items only ceased working if you wore them while shifting. He could houserule that glitch away, but by the time you have a Monk's Belt, a Wilding Clasp is usually not far behind.

Also, ericgrau, I pm'd you something about AC I need help with. Thanks.

stupid forum not auomatically notifying members[/grumble]

[ChaosDefender24]

They actually learned absolutely everything from yours truly, who used to have CharOps as his home page.

Still, before this thread becomes totally derailed, I'd like to insist once more that I'm looking for ways to challenge a level 5 anthropomorphic bat druid and wizard in combat (and probably a high-damaging character) without totally overwhelming them, and little more - I've already taken into consideration everything else that has been said. So far I have "grapple them if you're glitterdusted" and "ambush them."

[RandomFellow]

They actually learned absolutely everything from yours truly, who used to have CharOps as his home page.

Still, before this thread becomes totally derailed, I'd like to insist once more that I'm looking for ways to challenge a level 5 anthropomorphic bat druid and wizard in combat (and probably a high-damaging character) without totally overwhelming them, and little more - I've already taken into consideration everything else that has been said. So far I have "grapple them if you're glitterdusted" and "ambush them."

I'd add strong SLA / casting creatures (e.g. Dark Naga), tweak feats to optimize a SLA / spell (e.g. Energy Substitution Empowered Split Ray Scorching Ray with Arcane Thesis and rule it as a +1 SL so 3rd level. 63*[To Hit %] damage/round for 4 rounds.) and give them 1/day-polymorph to raise their to-hit. Not 100% RAW but neither is Anthro Bat :P

[Winthur]

I have another question from these series. Now, our party isn't exactly high-powered (you already know it from Funny Gaming Situations), but I just wanted to help out the guy who's playing a human fighter. We have only 3.0 PHB + Dragonlance material. He wants to play an archer specialist. Ideas? (not for something imbalanced of course, just some general things that can smooth his idea.)

[Sir Giacomo]

To make matters even more lulzy, the wizard gives the dr00d some of his money so that he can get a monk's belt.


A monk's belt exceeds both player's wbl when following the DMG p. 199 rule that no character starting at higher level should have a single item beyond 1/4 his wbl.

Concerning the antropomorphic bat stuff:
Make sure that the disadvantages of turning into an animal are not ignored (not being able to speak, gear getting non-functional. A bat wearing a belt...WHAT?)

Concerning the glitterdust wizard:
No problem at all. At level 5, the wizard should be grateful to be able to survive. He can have great effect with the glitterdust in one encounter, then in the next (with goblins ambushing the party and targeting him with a volley of arrows), he may go down, and thus needs to be saved by the new player.

The easiest thing to keep things interesting for a beginner player alongside the two more experienced ones is then also to keep the rules to core.

- Giacomo

[TheCountAlucard]

Gonna follow the previous recommendation of having copies of their character sheets and using them to playtest your various encounters.

[Olo Demonsbane]

At 5th level, the Bat can't have Natural spell. Make sure that you remind him of that right before he starts to cast :smallwink:

As to how to challenge them....make a Dragonlance-ish campaign. With Dragons as a BIG part. Dragon Magic has some tips. Except for Shivering Touch cheese, Dragons are amazingly powerful and fun for their level. Especially after you add character classes. Plus, Dragons can fly after the bat and down the wizard in one BW.

Dragons FTW!

[kjones]

What kind of character is the third player playing?

[Curmudgeon]

Magic Items automatically resize to fit, other than weapons and armor. This is inaccurate.
Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. Picking up a ring still takes a move action, and putting it on still takes a standard action; that's the easy case. Clothing will take longer. The rules don't include the time to put on garments, but if the Druid changes body proportions significantly -- say from a medium humanoid to a small eagle -- then the time to adjust and don garments should be on the same order as to put on armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#gettingIntoAndOutOfArmor) -- a minimum of 5 rounds. That's still pretty short, compared to finding a tailor to alter the garment for you.

[Sir Giacomo]

Except...size is not the issue when you take on a non-humanoid form, it is whether that new form is suited to wear humanoid gear. An ape maybe, but an eagle wearing a cloak? I do not think so, but it's up to the DM (and since the DM was concerned about overpoweredness....)

- Giacomo

[Myrmex]

They actually learned absolutely everything from yours truly, who used to have CharOps as his home page.

Still, before this thread becomes totally derailed, I'd like to insist once more that I'm looking for ways to challenge a level 5 anthropomorphic bat druid and wizard in combat (and probably a high-damaging character) without totally overwhelming them, and little more - I've already taken into consideration everything else that has been said. So far I have "grapple them if you're glitterdusted" and "ambush them."

Rather than tell you you're doing it wrong, I'll try to be of some help.

I've found in running overpowered characters that anything with CL = to party level is about a CR equivalent challenge. I recommend the fiend folio and MM2 for really nasty, 3.0 monsters. There's a monster in a Faerun book, called a Banelor. It gets wizard and cleric casting equal to its hitdice (maybe HD+2; cant remember), as well as the ability to cast a spell as a free action every round. It also gets decent saves, and is no slouch in melee.

You should look for monsters with CL equal to their HD. Dragons, with a little tweaking, work great. Dragons of Eberron offers both the spell drake and the martial maneuvers drake, where you can swap one of the wyrms second level spells for Iron Heart Surge, for instance. There's also the one +0 CR template that turns a dragons sorc casting into wiz, so you can make even a white dragon dangerous.

Rakshasa, Mindflayers, Sylphs, and those weird creatures from the Ethereal plane all get CL with their HD.

I've also got some pretty good mileage out of giving giants levels in cleric. This gives them decent casting, only increases CR by 0.5, and they have a lot of HP.

For monsters you want to use for story/fluff/nostalgia, but are otherwise too weak out of the book, try templates, changing feats (can really ruin someone's day), or gestalting some class levels. Monster of Legend is a pretty good template, as is Spellwarped, for the purpose of making a monster dangerous, but still look more or less like it originally does (unlike the half-something templates). Beware of Sp that run off HD. Making a half fiend giant with a lot of HD is dangerous, since it gets blasphemy. Also, using 36pb instead of 10 10 10 11 11 11 for monsters can really give a boost.

I like to give my aberrations mindsight (if they have telepathy), and give most constructs and undead lifesense (LM), even if normally they wouldn't have access to feats (being mindless).

Cleverly position monsters, as well. Don't clump them for a single entangle/glitterdust. Use of illusions can be really brutal, as can traps that get switch in battle. It also adds some level of dynamism to a fight.

DR is killer against druids, especially if they're using pounce-type animals. For intelligent enemies with loot, use consumable items. If they blunder into something's lair, have it drink a couple of potions before it initiates combat or use a scroll. This has a couple benefits. The first is that they have access to spells and the like they normally wouldn't. The second is that their NPC WBL is invested in loot the party doesn't get.

Hope that helps, some.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If they're up against humanoid opponents, add in some Warlocks who spam Sickening Blast and Frightful Blast. Maybe include some Dragon Shamans with Entangling Exhalation who make sure to put Endure Exposure on their allies each day. Adepts casting Web, Bless, and Cure Light Wounds (via a familiar) can make an encounter more challenging. Make each encounter 1-3 of the above and 2-4 Warriors with reach weapons and Combat Reflexes and it will end up being Tucker's Kobolds.

Concealment effects such as Blur and Darkness will help opponents survive longer. At the lower levels creatures with DR such as (advanced) Gricks hold up well against players with multiple attacks, such as a Druid in Fleshraker form. Enemies with extra long reach will probably at least get one swing before they're killed. Maybe even give the players max HP per level, but also give the monsters the same just so they'll last longer. Undead opponents would get the greatest benefit, and they're also immune to a lot of the save-or-suck spells the Wizard will be using.

[wadledo]

Or, you could, you know.
Just make a few higher CR creatures(1-2 at most) for the optimizers, and give the new one a bunch of mooks for the first session, just so everybody gets used to it.

Don't rush out of the gate before you know how everything's going to pan out.:smallconfused:

[Mushroom Ninja]

Except...size is not the issue when you take on a non-humanoid form, it is whether that new form is suited to wear humanoid gear. An ape maybe, but an eagle wearing a cloak? I do not think so, but it's up to the DM (and since the DM was concerned about overpoweredness....)


I agree that it would probably be reasonable to look at certain items on a case-by-case basis. The monk's belt, however, would probably fit on almost anything.

Also, out of curiosity, what kind of cloak could a druid want to wear?

[krossbow]

have the villian's be a group of rangers with favored enemies "animal"
This will put a crimp in the druid.


If you really want to be a anti-caster guy, make magic in the world difficult to pull off; make them do a caster power check for each spell as if the world itself had spell resistance.

For the monk's belt, me and my friends just nuked Monks from the game and removed the monks belt with it. the class and its abilities are too weak on their own, too powerful when combined.




As for making your new player feel welcome, talk to her about her character; what are her goals? her backstory and dream? Focus on story rather than unrelated adventures. have the goals of each story LITERALLY take her one step closer to her goal (Whether that be avenging someone's murder, finding an ancient city, or being the first person in the world to craft an airship).

If that fails, give her an artifact sword and pretend she has a destiny while not actually following up; lip service to characters can do wonders. :smallbiggrin:

[Olo Demonsbane]

\If you really want to be a anti-caster guy, make magic in the world difficult to pull off; make them do a caster power check for each spell as if the world itself had spell resistance.

For the monk's belt, me and my friends just nuked Monks from the game and removed the monks belt with it. the class and its abilities are too weak on their own, too powerful when combined.

I don't really think that he is trying to change the campaign world, just trying to create challenging encounters.

OP: You have a double post, by the way...

[Thrawn183]

Fort saves for the wizard.

Monsters with SR for the wizard and the druid.

Multiple encounters in a day so that the casters can't nova.

Anti-caster tactics like casting silence on a rock (either one carried by an enemy or one near a caster). Readied actions from an archer or two to disrupt spellcasting.

Grappling of course you've already picked up on.

AoE damage: the wizard in particular is going to have low hp and will be in far more danger.

Last and most importantly: make sure there are detailed combat environments requiring or at least encouraging the benefit of strength based skills. Have to jump from pillar to pillar? Maybe you have to get to the far side of a small body of water while making swim checks against the current in the middle of the fight for some reason. Make it so a high strength score is useful, something like tearing a small tree out of the ground in the middle of combat. Just anything to make it so that melee combat doesn't have to be full round attacks.

Oh, and don't forget to have the populace be extremely reluctant to talk to the anthropomorphic bat. Have people just straight up refuse to do business with him until he has proven himself in the area via successful adventuring. If something bad happens to him, have no one be willing to go out on a limb to help him. Treat him like a commoner in a world filled with vampires and all sorts of monstrosities would treat a giant bat thing. Probably involves a bit of fire.

[ChaosDefender24]

I don't really think that he is trying to change the campaign world, just trying to create challenging encounters.

OP: You have a double post, by the way...


I don't see the double post, even with the help of Ctrl+F. Then again, it's 12:30 in the morning...

I appreciate everyone's suggestions, though, and I'll definitely get to work playtesting this stuff.

Do you think it's worth doing a campaign diary on here like I see some people doing, once this gets started, simply because of how this is awkward to pull off?

[RandomFellow]

Campaign Diaries are always fun.

Even if they just end up being something to point newbies to so they know what not to do. :P

[Kylarra]

I don't see the double post, even with the help of Ctrl+F. Then again, it's 12:30 in the morning...

I appreciate everyone's suggestions, though, and I'll definitely get to work playtesting this stuff.

Do you think it's worth doing a campaign diary on here like I see some people doing, once this gets started, simply because of how this is awkward to pull off?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108692