V's Soul Splice all for naught

[JJ48]

It seems that V's quest for more power in order to find Haley and Roy has led to V accomplishing LESS than if V had merely stayed with the ship. Not only would V have been able to receive the cleric's message which seems to have gotten through after all, but V would have also not have had to make a deal with the fiends, as Momma Dragon clearly stated that she wasn't going to put her plan into action while V was with the fleet, as it would have been too much of a risk. Granted, when Momma eventually DID attack, V would have had to rely on his comrades, in order to not have to rely on the Fiends' proposal then, but something tells me that relying on Durkon and Elan (teammates) wouldn't be QUITE as objectionable to V as having to rely on an imp and a former teacher.

I wonder if this will be one of the things that causes the eventual ending of the Soul Splice, as V comes to the shocking realization that in the end, WITH the soul splice, V didn't really accomplish anything more than V would have by simply waiting on the boats with the others.

...well, other than transporting the whole fleet to the island, of course. But I imagine something bad will come from that that will make them wish V HADN'T done it, resulting in things being WORSE than if V had simply remained with the fleet. I guess time will tell.

[Aaron]

...well, other than transporting the whole fleet to the island, of course. But I imagine something bad will come from that that will make them wish V HADN'T done it, resulting in things being WORSE than if V had simply remained with the fleet. I guess time will tell.

I agree. If V had stayed with the fleet, then the ABD wouldn't have attacked V and hir family at that time. And even if/when the ABD attacked, V would have the help of a mid-high level cleric, a bard/dashing-swordsmen, two mid-high level palidins, some low level clerics, and a bunch of 5th or so level soilders. The ABD only wanted to attack V's family AFTER attacking V. Their would have been no soul splice needed, and V would have gotten the message from Haley. Yet V picked pride over party loyalty, and now hir soul will pay the price.

I also agree that V teleporting the fleet turn out very bad, cause now they are a VERY long distance from their homeland...:smallfrown:

[Laughing Dragon]

Yes ... It pretty much prevents them from ever being able to retake Azure City.

All the ramifications of V leaving the fleet do seem to be negative ... it just goes to show that when you're suffering from PTSD you should get some help and not (insanely) persist in doing the same stuff over and over expecting to get a different result.

[Vemynal]

Actually i dont think anything bad will come of the elf island he sent them to, rather i find it interesting *he never mentioned it in the first place*. If he had, the whole wandering around bit would have been done ages ago, they wouldn't have needed the teleport spell. But V didn't care.

So really, if V had simply waited on the boat, and helped the paladin's out a little bit (all he had to give were the coordinates and be done with it) he would be much much better off

[kusje]

I don't understand how you can possibly think that the ABD would not attack V's family. She's been plotting for months!

If V had stayed, they would have gotten Haley's message and left the fleet. We'd have spliced V, dead durkon and dead Elan.

[Griever3216]

I agree with the OP. It is evident that V will eventually lose the splice and there will be long term consequencies (his soul being controlled at the worst possible moment) for which V may or may not worry. However, V will definately look back and see what he accomplished with this so called ultimate arcane power. I personally consider this an integral part of his next character development.

It is true, if he had stayed at the ship, things would have turned out better. However, the ABD would still be lurking and chances are that V would eventually be alone at some point. Probably nowhere close to his comrades either and this is when the ABD would strike and things would evolve like they did. No matter whether the ABD would risk an encounter or not, or the chances of the Order stopping her plan, if the Order was available, V would place some hope on them for a rescue. To V none of this will really matter, it will be the ifs in hir head that will torment hir.

The teleport to that island can serve two purposes; either helping the Azurites for a new beginning, or something bad happening to them. In the latter, V will definately blame himself and the inability of his power to solve problems. However, V is carrying the soul of a third wizard who may shine in solving all the problems in Greysky and speed up the resurrection of Roy. If this fails, then V will be deeply depressed by achieving nothing, but sacrifising so much.

In the case this character development takes place, the question is whether V will realise that arcane power is not the solution to everything. But do not forget, even if V had saved his family without the soul splice, he may have gotten so obsessed over protecting them, like he did when trying to locate Haley. Arcane power can be the solution to many problems, but in this case it was a really bad timing for everything. However, as I said, it will all matter depending how V will think about it.

[The Pilgrim]

I don't understand how you can possibly think that the ABD would not attack V's family. She's been plotting for months!

If V had stayed, they would have gotten Haley's message and left the fleet. We'd have spliced V, dead durkon and dead Elan.

ABD attacked V 'cuz the elf was isolated AND had run out of high-level spell slots trying to disintegrate the Imp.

Those two factors wouldn't had happened if V had stayed in the fleet and later leaved with Durkon and Elan. The elf wouldn't have been isolated, would have had all hir spell slots loaded... and, gosh, chances are high that there are wizards capable of teleporting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) in the fleet* than could have teleported them all straight to Greysky City. So no chance for ABD to catch V in the open.

* Something we're gonna find rather soon. If Durkon and Elan show up on a tiny boat at sea, then there were none. But I think that Durkon and Elan being already on Greysky City via teleport would be better for the current plot developements.

[DUSUCK]

My guess is the dragon would have just went tortured the family then send V a sending.

[Mystic Muse]

the soul splice while maybe not necessary was far from pointless and all for naught. first off as has been mentioned before the island was roughly where china would be if you were sailing from the USA. somehow I doubt they had enough supplies to make it all the way there with all of those people.

secondly there's a mountain of difference between an ancient black dragon and a young black dragon. anybody remember what happened with the YBD? V was the only person who stood a chance. imagine that battle except with an ancient black dragon and it ends in all but vaarsuvious dead and Vaarsuvious having probably not even a ghost of a chance of surviving. plus they took the dragon's hoard. unless you kill the dragon NEVER take their horde or they will pursue you to the ends of the earth and back for no other reason than to kill you for thinking you could do that. even if V had the power to beat the ABD there are several other relatives that would be interested in taking revenge and I don't think V wants a quarter of the black dragons in the world after him/her

and has been mentioned before the slit your own throat method would not work either because it has too many variables and would take at least an hour according to D&D rules at which point the mate would be dead the children would be soul binded and V's mind would be broken.because he LET it happen. oh and he hasn't said the four words yet. the four words are either "I am a guy" or "I am a girl":smallwink::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Nimrod's Son]

I think the fact that the whole soul-splice deal was a total waste of time is the whole point of V's current arc, and a harsh lesson that he will have to learn.


Actually i dont think anything bad will come of the elf island he sent them to, rather i find it interesting *he never mentioned it in the first place*.
Quite. Teleporting the fleet doesn't spoil any chance they had of retaking Azure City; they never had that chance to begin with. At least this way they have time and provisions to recover and, eventually, start anew.

[Souju]

I think the mass teleportation to the island thing was just a convenient excuse so we wouldn't ask questions about the fate of the Azurites while the rest of the story takes place.
It would also give the perfect staging point for a Big Damn Heroes moment when/if they finally go back to Azure City to reseal the portal. Or something.

[The Pilgrim]

Quite. Teleporting the fleet doesn't spoil any chance they had of retaking Azure City; they never had that chance to begin with. At least this way they have time and provisions to recover and, eventually, start anew.

I agree, they don't have a chance to retake Azure City right now. The only people fit for fighting in the fleet are Hinjo an the few people who took part in the battle and survived (and that pretty much accounts for the Katos, Lien, Hinjo himself and little more), and the household troops of the Nobles, who refused to defend Azure City in the first place, so must not be very willing to fight for it now that the odds are much worse.

Their only chance was to enlist the help of nearby friendly nations. And those had already refused to fight the Lich, so...

[Glome]

Staying on the ship would have only delayed the inevitable. The ABD would have eventually found an opportune time when the party was weakened and no match for her and struck. The only way OOTS could have prevented this tragedy is if Durkon really did have a sending scroll and was left alive to use to it, although the fiends could have been lying about that.

And either way, teleporting the fleet half way around the world was no small feat, and resolved an issue that the refugees were unable to solve themselves in several months of trying.

[Mewtarthio]

The irony there being that the one good act V managed to accomplish thanks to the soul splice is also the one act V didn't intend to do. V only rescued the Azurites to stop their whining.

Alright, plus she wiped out a lot of black dragons. The goodness of that act is debatable at best, though.

Of course, V's still got two more shocks to go before losing the splice. One will, of course, be the party's reaction (Haley in particular) once V reaches Greysky, but that still leaves one soul left that V could use to get some good done. Frankly, though, I doubt it will amount to anything, just because.

[derfenrirwolv]

Well, he DID get rid of the dragon and protect his family, which was the primary point of the splice. Without it, the dragon eventually would have taken on the order (good odds on the dragon, especially if she timed it right) or simply gone through with her plans for V's family and sent him a sending.

What WAS for nothing, or little apparently, is V's walking out on his family. He* could have released the soul splice, sat down for a banana nut muffin and calmly explained that the world was in danger, and that if he didn't save it NO ONES children, including his own, would be safe.

[Laughing Dragon]

What WAS for nothing, or little apparently, is V's walking out on his family. He* could have released the soul splice, sat down for a banana nut muffin and calmly explained that the world was in danger, and that if he didn't save it NO ONES children, including his own, would be safe.

I agree. The negative effects on V's family will be difficult if not impossible for V to overcome at this point.

However, this comic (thankfully) is not about V's family and/or their personal relationships. V is acting to drive essential plot elements forward (i.e. a new home for the Azurites). This, and the character development mentioned by Griever3216 is the real reason behind the soul splice.

What will the sorcerer's contribution be? It seems that his first comment had something to do with "undoing creation just to see if you can" ... while others have doubts about the worthyness of what he will contribute, I don't. I have no idea or prediction of what will come of him except that it is likely to be both unexpected and spectacular.

[Cor1]

Actually i dont think anything bad will come of the elf island he sent them to, rather i find it interesting *he never mentioned it in the first place*. If he had, the whole wandering around bit would have been done ages ago, they wouldn't have needed the teleport spell. But V didn't care.

So really, if V had simply waited on the boat, and helped the paladin's out a little bit (all he had to give were the coordinates and be done with it) he would be much much better off

Yeah, that island that might be thousands of miles away? V only could teleport the Azure City fleet because he's spliced with Ganonron, "a conjurer who teleported vast armies to conquer world after world".

Ganonron had to be useful at some point, by the Law of Conservation of Detail. Like Haer(t)a, who used an epic necromantic spell... And now we're waiting for Jephton to make himself useful. An arch-sorcerer? Now in a mage duel that might be interesting...

Especially since Ganonron's speciality has now served a plot purpose : bringing the Azurites to safety. That was admittedly rather minor (as a plot thread), but now that the side-plots of "ABD comes for revenge" and "bring Azure City fleet to safety" have been resolved, I'm left wondering what plot point the third soul will resolve.

(And I think that a Sorc 16/Archmage 5 is an insanely powerful build. 6 spells per lvl per day + bonuses, shapeable, with 30ft reach for all his touch spells, counterspell mastery and energy mastery, and he applies the metamagics on the fly on any spell he knows. For The Epic Win Of Awesome.)

[B.I.T.T.]

I, too, have to say that the soul splice wasn't necessarily all for naught, because it's original intent was for V to go save his family, which he did. What I have to say is all for naught is his actually leaving the boat. The orignal intent being that he could concentrate on finding Haley and the late Sir Greenhilt (and the halfling). This wouldn't have been an issue V had just stayed put.

But I think the main purpose of this entire storyline has been accomplished and that is (in my opinion) have now been given a view on V as a character. He (or she) has children and a spouse who seems to disagree with V's leaving on this quest for ultimate arcane power, especially since that spouse has seen what that quest has wrought.

[evileeyore]

-- Stuff --

Hindsight is 20/20.


I disagree with every point you made: Nothing that has happened could have been predicted. Vaarsuvius did what Vaarsuvius thought was best at the time, based on information possessed at the time.


... i find it interesting *he never mentioned it in the first place*. If he had, the whole wandering around bit would have been done ages ago, they wouldn't have needed the teleport spell. But V didn't care.

We have no idea how far away this part of the elf nation is. It could very well be the Western most part of the Western Islands.

Not something Hinjo would have wanted to sail to right off, being that there are closer islands and lands at hand.

Indeed, you have no way of knowing whether or not Vaarsuvius has told them about it. It may have beent he first idea presented. We weren't shown everything that occurred in the fleet during Roy's family reunion.

[The Minx]

I also agree that V teleporting the fleet turn out very bad, cause now they are a VERY long distance from their homeland...:smallfrown:

I don't know that this is too bad a result. The most pressing issue was getting food and shelter for the refugees, preferably in a secure location. The Epic Teleport made this possible. They were not in a position to retake Azure City anyway in the foreseeable future.

[JJ48]

I disagree with every point you made: Nothing that has happened could have been predicted. Vaarsuvius did what Vaarsuvius thought was best at the time, based on information possessed at the time.

I never said it could have been. I never said that V SHOULDN'T have left, given V's knowledge at the time, only that V's doing so ended up with things being less well than if V hadn't. Yes, this is hindsight, and V had no way of knowing it at the time, but once V realizes how things COULD have turned out, compared to how they DID, I think it will be painfully aggravating, all the same.

I mean, how many times do people make a decision based on what they know at the time, and then beat themselves up when they discover that doing something different would have lead to a better outcome, despite the fact that there was no way of predicting it. And that's with just simple, day-to-day matters. ("Wow, if I had only waited another fifteen minutes, I could have gotten the 'after 5:00' discount on my dinner.") How much moreso when V discovers that achieving a significant boost in arcane power accomplished nothing more than NOT having the power boost.

[derfenrirwolv]

However, this comic (thankfully) is not about V's family and/or their personal relationships. V is acting to drive essential plot elements forward (i.e. a new home for the Azurites). This, and the character development mentioned by Griever3216 is the real reason behind the soul splice.

On the contrary. If this were just about another group of adventurers heading to beat a wizard bent on world domination we would have the recipee for a Uwe Bol flick.

Instead of generic Wizard, what we have here is an actual person, Varsuvious. He* isn't JUST going on an adventure. He's going on an adventure, selling his soul to save his family... and winds up loosing them. V had two chances here to save his family without loosing his soul. If he had touched the orb for the right reasons instead of his pride i doubt the demons would have half the hold on him that they do. If he had dropped the splice with his family instread of trying to show off his arcane power he wouldn't have lost them. This brings up the issues of trying to do good with evil, motivations as compared to results etc. It makes the CHARACTERS interesting and adds to the story, which is otherwise "Ragtag band of adventurers with nothing in common stop bad guy"

There's 100 other ways the party could have been brought back together. This one was chosen specifically to explore what doing it is going to do to V

[Morgan Wick]

The irony there being that the one good act V managed to accomplish thanks to the soul splice is also the one act V didn't intend to do. V only rescued the Azurites to stop their whining.

Alright, plus she wiped out a lot of black dragons. The goodness of that act is debatable at best, though.

Of course, V's still got two more shocks to go before losing the splice. One will, of course, be the party's reaction (Haley in particular) once V reaches Greysky, but that still leaves one soul left that V could use to get some good done. Frankly, though, I doubt it will amount to anything, just because.
I was, quite frankly, a little surprised V didn't lose a splice upon realizing what had just happened and I'm not ruling out 644 starting with Hinjo seeing V and inadvertantly triggering splice loss. Wouldn't it be great if it turned out V just gave him/herself that much longer a trip to Greysky and no longer can teleport? Result: it becomes plot important because it means the OOTS won't meet back up with V until they reach the Western Continent.

Reading this thread, I just got an idea: After the Sapphire Guard retake Azure City, there will be no reason for them to remain involved for the rest of the strip, despite how much they've been involved so far. What if this is the last we see of the exile group for the rest of the book, and the book ends with the OOTS reunited and Roy resurrected, but Azure City doesn't get retaken until the very last book?

[Dagren]

Reading this thread, I just got an idea: After the Sapphire Guard retake Azure City, there will be no reason for them to remain involved for the rest of the strip, despite how much they've been involved so far. What if this is the last we see of the exile group for the rest of the book, and the book ends with the OOTS reunited and Roy resurrected, but Azure City doesn't get retaken until the very last book?How do you figure that? They weren't allowed to interfere in the other gates unless there was a known threat to them all. Sending spell for Xykon? It's quite possible that even if the city is retaken (what would they do with a city with a big rift in the sky?), they remain active in the Order's quest. In fact, that could be interesting if Hinjo and Roy have any differences about how to undertake the quest (which is entirely possible, Paladins can have problems playing nice with others).

[Sutremaine]

We have no idea how far away this part of the elf nation is. It could very well be the Western most part of the Western Islands.

Not something Hinjo would have wanted to sail to right off, being that there are closer islands and lands at hand.
I'd assume until we're told otherwise that it's somewhere to the north. Vaarsuvius' house is up there, as shown by the Familicide strip, and north is the quickest way to the ocean (closely followed by nothwest). Even the island were on the southern edge, the fleet's supplies put a limit on how much ocean they can cross without casualties.