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Zergrusheddie
2009-04-06, 03:29 PM
In our current campaign, I managed to bag myself a Sorcerer henchmen. I've read through loads and loads of Wizard guides (Batman, God) and I love the idea of casting spells that just utterly shut down enemies. The problem is, I have never played a Sorcerer before and with their lack of spell versatility I am completely lost. I know that most Sorcerers go with Blasting, but is a Batman type Sorcerer possible? This is a Core, SRD, and PH2 game and he is level 5; the only spells I can think of taking are Glitterdust, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Enlarge Person (Barbarian uses a Spiked Chain). Seriously, ANY advice would be highly appreciated.

Best of luck to y'all.
-Eddie

RandomFellow
2009-04-06, 03:48 PM
Take Celerity [when you can] (getting that extra hit in) and Celerity, Lesser [I think it is 2nd level so you can take it at start] (moving out of grapple range before they can grapple) as spell's known. Both are PHBII, if cheesy.

My advice is get 1 disable per SL each of which targets a different defense.

1st - Grease
2nd - Glitterdust
3rd - Deep Slumber (trade it out later when 10 HD sleep isn't usable)
4th - Black Tentacles [when you get 4th]

Put the rest into utility spells and take Scorching Ray as your damage spell.
+ Arcane Thesis [Scorching Ray] (PHB II) + Empower Spell + Blistering Spell. Not optimal but you will still be able to do some decent damage for +1 spell level (32 average damage per ray) if you absolutely have to.

Flickerdart
2009-04-06, 03:59 PM
The thing to remember is that you will never be able to swap your arsenal like a Wizard. Therefore only take spells that you expect yourself to use all day, every day. Explosive Runes? No, bad. Evard's Black Tentacles? Yes, good. Solo had a guide somewhere on the boards, unless it got pruned.

So while a Wizard can be prepared for anything by having a billion spells, you have to be prepared by having a few spells that do everything.

Zaq
2009-04-06, 04:14 PM
All of the standard stuff that wizards use, sorcerers can use as well, right up until Quicken becomes viable. That's when wizards make the jump from "awesome" to "uber," and sorcerers are stuck at "awesome."

Wizards can know more spells, this is true, but really, nine times out of ten they'll prepare more or less the same spells every day. You're slightly more limited, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. All the standby spells are still great... mirror image, haste, slow, glitterdust, grease, unluck, assay spell resistance, Orb of X, maybe a summon, benign transposition, the fog spells, whatever illusion spell you fancy, dispel magic, stuff like that. Those'll be useful every single day. Not all at once, of course, but with a good selection of those, you'll have most of your bases covered.

Well, now that I think about it, the other downside to being a sorcerer is that you have a real limbo zone with hours/day spells. A wizard loses very little by scribing Overland Flight into his spellbook, but you have a much greater opportunity cost if you choose to learn it, and since caster level matters, scrolls don't cut it. Still, this isn't the end of the world... you just need to think long and hard about which spells you want to learn when.

Since sometimes you'll only know one or two spells of your highest level, metamagic feats are useful, even if you have to spend a full-round on them. I'm a big fan of ones like Fell Drain or Fell Weaken, though those assume you use damage. Twin or Repeat, though expensive, are useful, and Sculpt Spell is always great. Personally, I really love taking either magic missile or a cantrip (sonic snap is my favorite) and loading up the "If target takes damage from this spell, X" effects, like Deafening Spell, Fell Firghten/Weaken/Drain, Coercive Spell, and what have you.

Don't neglect the ability to swap out spells. It's totally okay to take a spell or two that will only be useful now, since you can swap it out later. Change a low-level save-or-die into a buff or utility spell (for example, once the 12+CHA save DC on Hideous Laughter doesn't cut it anymore, swap it out for Knock or Swim. You won't use it every day, sure, but you have other options, and you'll use it more often than a debuff that won't affect your average monster any longer.

Yeah, wizards are better than sorcerers. This is very sad, because I like sorcerers way more than I like wizards. However, even if "a wizard can do it better!" sorcerers still do not suck, and can be incredibly powerful.

SoD
2009-04-06, 04:28 PM
Read. Now. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801&highlight=solo%27s+sorcerer)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-06, 04:35 PM
Wings of Cover(negating Disintigrate for one slot is awesome)

Wings of Flurry(One blasting spell to make you better than the Warmage at blasting is hilarious)

Keld Denar
2009-04-06, 05:31 PM
Wings of Cover(negating Disintigrate for one slot is awesome)

Wings of Flurry(One blasting spell to make you better than the Warmage at blasting is hilarious)

Both amazing spells, but sadly outside of Core + PHBII.

According to the PHB, your Sorc5 has 6 0th, 4 1st, and 2 2nd level spells known. Knowing that you are a batman wizard, I'd suggest thus.

1st
Ray of Enfeeblement
Grease
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person

2nd
Glitterdust
Web

My reasoning. RoE and Grease are just too good. Take em and keep em. Endure Elements is very situationally useful, but when it is, its a real life saver. You can afford to have a few utility spells known, and this is one that takes fullest advantage of your high spells/day to get the whole party. Enlarge Person is great for the reasons presented.

And then there's Glitterdust and Web. Both are amazing 2nd level spells. If you think you've already got the disable thing going on your own, have your cohort take Dimension Hop. He can use it to teleport on of your melee friends (like the spiked chain guy) into melee range so he can full attack. Its kinda nice.

Next level, your cohort should DEFINITELY take Haste, so that you don't have to worry about it any more on your main character. That should always be his first action in combat until all of your allies pick up Boots of Speed or similar.

Eldariel
2009-04-06, 05:50 PM
Solo's old thread was linked, but the one he updates presently can be found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0). And yeah, most of the good advice has been given - just make sure you can punish any of the 3 saves and don't miss any important, unique effects. Basically, cover touch attacks, save-or-Xs, control, teleportation, flight/mobility and defenses.

An important thing to remember is that Sorcerer is the very worst core class in the sense that it gets nothing by advancing Sorcerer-levels, so it's a good idea to get the f*ck out of Sorc ASAP. For an example of a Core-only Sorc: http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=4511 - obviously you'll want to look into some PHBII goodies (Celerities & Greater Mirror Image, for one - Alter Fortune can also be a very worthwhile spell, although 3-slot is crowded as it stands).

holywhippet
2009-04-06, 06:02 PM
Don't neglect the first level spell: color spray though. It can cause a lot of negative effects and stays useful for many levels.

Chronos
2009-04-06, 06:46 PM
It's not relevant yet, but once you get to higher spell levels, the shadow spells (Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, plus higher-level versions) can offer oodles of versatility for a single spell known each. You might not know what you're going to use them for on any given day, but you can almost always find a use for either.

Zergrusheddie
2009-04-06, 06:52 PM
Is Glitterdust and Web a little overkill though? Or do they fall into the same kind of "save-or" categories with different saves? Also, is Archmage worth the cost of 2 feats?

Jack_Simth
2009-04-06, 07:05 PM
Is Glitterdust and Web a little overkill though? Or do they fall into the same kind of "save-or" categories with different saves?
Exactly. There's even a 2nd level version of Stinking Cloud in the Spell Compendium - Cloud of Bewilderment. You can get all three Save or Lose spells down to 2nd level spell slots - and as a bonus, none of them take SR.

Glitterdust is Will save or be blind for 1 round/level (which is pretty much lose for most characters), Web is Reflex save or be unable to move (which, again, is pretty much Lose for most characters), Cloud of Bewilderment is Fort save or be nauseated for 1d4+1 rounds after leaving the cloud (which is pretty much lose for most characters). All three are Conjuration spells, and none of them permit SR. They're even all area spells, so you can catch multiple opponents (although Cloud of Bewilderment has a tiny area)

FinalJustice
2009-04-06, 07:21 PM
Does anyone else think the Improved Counterspell + Heighten spell a good idea for this cohort. Then, when you face a spellcaster, you can make your sorcerer friend shut him down while you pwn him. Add Celerity to the mix to make it even more fun (with Celerity you may just Orb of Force the opposed spellcaster in the face, but hey...).

Keld Denar
2009-04-06, 07:35 PM
Eh, the problem with a sorcerous cohort is that hes gonna be miles behind the competition as far as counterspelling. A sorc cohort is gonna be 3 full caster levels behind a wizard, and probably 5+ behind a bad guy. Most baddies are gonna open up with their highest level spells, meaning the sorcerer can't counterspell much until the bad guy has exhausted the 2-3 full levels of spells that the sorcerer can't touch.

Better off using more utility spells and buffs that don't depend on a save. Glitterdust is also very handy at revealing invisible creatures, so it has a high degree of utility on top of being a badass disable. Haste is an amazing buff for a sorcerer, since you'll want it nearly every battle, and things like Solid Fog are just awesome to spam.

Zergrusheddie
2009-04-06, 08:46 PM
Ok, so apparently the DM does have an interesting feature: You are allowed one feat/class from different books per character. I am considering taking Sculpt Spell, but considering that the DM likes to run semi-optimized games I do not want to screw myself out of my one chance to break core. Is Sculpt Spell that good or should I be thinking about something else?

Y'all are awesome.
-Eddie

Eldariel
2009-04-06, 09:23 PM
I'd go for a PrC, seeing that Loremaster doesn't really suit Sorcerer, and Archmage is short and comes late, and standard Sorcerer is completely barren of class features. Of course, this raises an interesting conundrom - you can only pick PrCs that don't have out-of-core prerequisites. Mage of the Arcane Order [CArc] - the go-to PrC for Sorcerers - requires two out-of-core feats (Cooperative Spell & Arcane Preparation) and thus probably is off-limits.

Incantatrix [PGtF] would work, of course (and gets you a ton of bonus metamagic feats to boot), but might be a bit too good (although as you won't be Persisting stuff and most of the abilities are derived off Int not Cha, it's not that bad). Then there's of course Ultimate Magus [CM], but entering it with Sorcerer as the primary class takes Precocious Apprentice, yet another Complete Arcane-feat.


Specialization PrCs are of course open, as well as 5-level ones, but I'd personally seek out a 10-level one that fits and is enterable early and rock it for the whole 10 levels. Gets you by with least Do Nothing-levels.

RandomFellow
2009-04-06, 09:24 PM
If you plan to use the scorching ray idea as your damage spell...

Metamagic Spell Focus (Evocation) to cast it 3x a day with no level adjustment.

Otherwise, I'd see if I could talk the DM into letting me get a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell for buffing goodness.

Chronos
2009-04-07, 12:19 AM
Web is Reflex save or be unable to move (which, again, is pretty much Lose for most characters)And even if you make the save, you're still entangled, and probably still can't move anyway (DC 20 Str or Escape Artist check). And in any event, it blocks line of effect, so at the very least you can chop up the battlefield.

Draz74
2009-04-07, 01:10 AM
Ok, so apparently the DM does have an interesting feature: You are allowed one feat/class from different books per character. I am considering taking Sculpt Spell, but considering that the DM likes to run semi-optimized games I do not want to screw myself out of my one chance to break core. Is Sculpt Spell that good or should I be thinking about something else?

Sculpt might be the single best metamagic out there except for Quicken (which isn't good for Sorcs unless they have some other trick to make it work), barring various specific things (like DMM Persist).

Short answer: yeah, for a battlefield-control-friendly caster, Sculpt is absolutely fantastic.

Fizban
2009-04-07, 03:26 AM
For those thinking about counterspelling, consider this: to counterspell, you must ready an action and expend a spell of at least the same level as your oppenent to negate one spell of theirs. For the same readied action, you could instead deal them so much damage they auto-fail their concentration check to cast, dealing them a pile of damage while still negating the spell.

Here's a question that's probably a little off topic (I'll make a new thread if it doesn't work out here): just what is so freaking great about quicken? People do realize that it costs +4 levels right? Every spell the wizard quickens is another top tier save/invicibility buff spell he doesn't have available. If it's an attack, it's either piddly damage the DC is 4 lower. If it's defense or movement (not losing is as important as winning), it will be weak and/or short ranged. Yes, getting two spells in one round is good, and being able to teleport out of dodge without fail even to short range is great, but you're losing major efficiency while hemmoraging those spell slots. At most, I'm guessing a wizard could only have 2-3 quickened spells without becoming worthless in a fight except to stay alive while running.

So, for those purporting that quicken is one of the key factors that makes wizards better than sorcerers, give me some examples, or better yet some top tier spell loadouts at different levels that include what quickened spells make them so good. It can't just be extra spells/round because sorcerers have that with arcane fusion and arcane spellsurge, and both can use imbue familiar with spell ability.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-04-07, 11:16 AM
It is extra spells per round. More actions = More win.

It also lets you set up some of the iconic enemy fixers (I'm looking at YOU Solid Fog).

FinalJustice
2009-04-07, 11:33 AM
So, for those purporting that quicken is one of the key factors that makes wizards better than sorcerers, give me some examples, or better yet some top tier spell loadouts at different levels that include what quickened spells make them so good. It can't just be extra spells/round because sorcerers have that with arcane fusion and arcane spellsurge, and both can use imbue familiar with spell ability.

Sticking with core:
Forcecage (7th) + Quickened Cloudkill (9th). Slow, painfull and save-free death. (Granted, the enemy can't be immune to ability damage, poison and can't wear a Necklace of Adaptation. Also, it cannot be able to teleport without LoS, but a dimension anchor can solve this issue).

But versatility is the reason Wizards are better than Sorcerer, quicken is just a bonus. With the shenaningans you mentioned, a sorcerer can also output a lot of spells in one round. But he has limited capability to actually compose killer combos.

lsfreak
2009-04-07, 12:06 PM
So, for those purporting that quicken is one of the key factors that makes wizards better than sorcerers, give me some examples, or better yet some top tier spell loadouts at different levels that include what quickened spells make them so good. It can't just be extra spells/round because sorcerers have that with arcane fusion and arcane spellsurge, and both can use imbue familiar with spell ability.
It's just the extra spells per round. And sorcerers do get it, but instead of +4 to one of the spell slots, it costs them a third spell slot. Personally, I'll take my +4 and keep my extra spell slot.

And if you really like your quickened spells, there's a feat in Complete Mage that lets you make a second casting of a spell metamagicked without eating up the higher-level slot. Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion in round 1, and the next round you get to do it again but without giving RoEnfeeble the +4 adjustment. If you're into damage, Quickened Scorching Ray + Scorching Ray, and the next round you get Quickened Scorching Ray without the adjustment. It's a good feat that gets a *lot* better with Quicken.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot the more on-topic part.
If you can convince your DM to give you the feats to get into Mage of the Arcane Order, plus the class, definitely do that, since you're only taking the feats to get the class. "I won't use the feats for anything, but I need them to get in the class." If he goes all the way into the class, might even be worth saying you just don't get 2 of your feats in order to enter the class - he just loses them.

For feats, Sculpt is a good one for a more batman-sorcerer. Chain Spell is another very good option (Chained Nerveskitter? yes please), though if your DM doesn't let it work on rays/orbs then it loses quite a bit of its strength. Split Ray if he likes his rays. Possibly Twin Spell, depending on what else he does, but the +4 modifier can be hard to swallow unless you save your non-core thing for later and pick up a higher level rod.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-07, 12:22 PM
In our current campaign, I managed to bag myself a Sorcerer henchmen. I've read through loads and loads of Wizard guides (Batman, God) and I love the idea of casting spells that just utterly shut down enemies. The problem is, I have never played a Sorcerer before and with their lack of spell versatility I am completely lost. I know that most Sorcerers go with Blasting, but is a Batman type Sorcerer possible? This is a Core, SRD, and PH2 game and he is level 5; the only spells I can think of taking are Glitterdust, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Enlarge Person (Barbarian uses a Spiked Chain). Seriously, ANY advice would be highly appreciated.

Best of luck to y'all.
-Eddie

First off, have him trade in his familiar for the ability to do Metamagic without spending a full round to do it. It's the variant from PhB II.

Second: What others have said is mostly true: You don't want blastomancy, you want suckomancy. However, I disagree with Web, it's too easily defeated with a simple torch, it has too many requirements to cast in the first place (must have walls nearby, not too useful on the plains), and you already have both Grease and Glitterdust. You need to either do damage, or target a Fort save. Either that, or something supportive. Remember, this is your Robin, he's not supposed to do everything for you, he's supposed to make you look good.

So, with that in mind, here are my suggestions:

1st: Grease, Enlarge Person, Magic Missile, Feather Fall (to cast on YOU. It's like a free Ring of Feather Fall)
2nd: Glitterdust, then one of the following: Mirror Image (protect your Robin), Invisibility (which can also be cast on party members), Scorching Ray (consistant damage output), or Rope Trick (party utility)

Finally: Equip him with Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt +1. For just over 5k, he has something that is better than Mage Armor. And can be further increased with sufficient buffs.

ericgrau
2009-04-07, 12:29 PM
The sorc can prepare as many or more different spells than the wizard, he just can't swap them out. That'll let you use your henchman to have a lot more prepared spells. I'd give your henchman all the spells you know you cast all the time (so being unable to swap them out isn't an issue) to free up your own slots for other things. Or give him other crowd control & status-effect buff spells you would like to cast all the time but never had room for. Especially those that aren't heavily dependent on caster level or saves. He'll have a lot of spell slots, so use the lower level ones for stat buffs with enough duration to be cast in the morning. The nice thing is that you can mix and match the spells he casts at will without worrying about a spell being gone; maybe 2 of this, 1 of that, 3 of that, etc. That'll be great for spells you may or may not use multiple times.

Zergrusheddie
2009-04-07, 02:10 PM
I'd give your henchman all the spells you know you cast all the time (so being unable to swap them out isn't an issue) to free up your own slots for other things. Or give him other crowd control & status-effect buff spells you would like to cast all the time but never had room for. Especially those that aren't heavily dependent on caster level or saves. He'll have a lot of spell slots, so use the lower level ones for stat buffs with enough duration to be cast in the morning. The nice thing is that you can mix and match the spells he casts at will without worrying about a spell being gone; maybe 2 of this, 1 of that, 3 of that, etc. That'll be great for spells you may or may not use multiple times.

The only problem is the group consists of a Cleric, Barbarian, Rogue, and Dragon Disciple so there isn't a whole load of magic to go around. His third level slots are going to be a problem because there are so many wonderful spells; Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Slow, and Fly. It's like WotC decided to choose 3rd level spells as the time to make Sorcerers want to pull their hair our. :smallannoyed:

I've got the 1st level spells planned out and I'm basically trying to choose between Web, Dimension Hop, or Scorching Ray for the 2nd level. Web would slow things down, Scorching Ray would be great for the times when the BBEG is close to death but melee already went, and Dimension Hop would help in a load of sticky situtations. Glitterdust was too awesome to ignore; it saved the party the first time it was used from 4 Ogre Barbarians.

I am always amazed at the amount of useful information this forum can pump out. Than again, I'm sure that the forum is amazed at the amount of information I lack :smallwink:
-Eddie

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-07, 02:24 PM
The only problem is the group consists of a Cleric, Barbarian, Rogue, and Dragon Disciple so there isn't a whole load of magic to go around. His third level slots are going to be a problem because there are so many wonderful spells; Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Slow, and Fly. It's like WotC decided to choose 3rd level spells as the time to make Sorcerers want to pull their hair our. :smallannoyed:

I've got the 1st level spells planned out and I'm basically trying to choose between Web, Dimension Hop, or Scorching Ray for the 2nd level. Web would slow things down, Scorching Ray would be great for the times when the BBEG is close to death but melee already went, and Dimension Hop would help in a load of sticky situtations. Glitterdust was too awesome to ignore; it saved the party the first time it was used from 4 Ogre Barbarians.

I am always amazed at the amount of useful information this forum can pump out. Than again, I'm sure that the forum is amazed at the amount of information I lack :smallwink:
-Eddie

Seriously, don't forget Rope Trick in your 2nd level spell considerations. In 3 more levels, it'll be up for 8 hours, so you can camp in the Rope Trick unmolested.

Yes, 3rd level spells are a pain. Here are my suggestions:

You want something that will always work for your first spell. That means a buff. Haste should be first, because it hits the whole party. GMW should be next, then followed by something a bit more... irritating.

You've already got Glitterdust to use for a Will save, and Grease for a Reflex save, so how about Stinking Cloud, so you can get some Fort Save action going?

Keld Denar
2009-04-07, 02:27 PM
Meh, GMW doesn't even become relavant until CL8, and even then, probably isn't gonna be missed much til CL12. Past that, its amazing, but I'd grab something like Stinking Cloud earlier when its actually useful, rather than later when most things are gonna make the fort save anyway.

Chronos
2009-04-07, 05:11 PM
Seriously, don't forget Rope Trick in your 2nd level spell considerations. In 3 more levels, it'll be up for 8 hours, so you can camp in the Rope Trick unmolested.Or see if you can get an eternal wand or schema of extended rope trick. You only need it once per day anyway, and a sorcerer spell known is worth a lot more than the few thousand gold for the item.

Zergrusheddie
2009-04-07, 08:28 PM
Ok, so what's the catch with Mage of the Arcane Order Spellpool feature? Can you just cast ANY spell once you get it and it stated that you have to 'pay back' the pool but I didn't find a mechanism for doing so. It seems to me that a Sorcerer would be insane not to go with that PrC.

lsfreak
2009-04-07, 08:50 PM
Imo, you pretty much are, barring specific RP/campaign reasons not to, or if you're going into Ultimate Magus instead (which as a pure sorcerer, you can't).

You pay it back by expending spell slots equal to the spell slot(s) you used. No catch, except for you because of the two feats + the PrC itself.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-07, 08:50 PM
Ok, so what's the catch with Mage of the Arcane Order Spellpool feature? Can you just cast ANY spell once you get it and it stated that you have to 'pay back' the pool but I didn't find a mechanism for doing so. It seems to me that a Sorcerer would be insane not to go with that PrC.

You are limited to (caster level)/2 spell levels per day, which you must pay back by loosing that many spell level slots. So a Sorcerer6/MotAO10/Archmage4 can only use up to 10 spell levels per day in this manner. That's a 9th level spell and a 1st level spell, or two 5th level spells, or any other combination that add up to 10.

See "The Spellpool" sidebar on the bottom of page 49 of Complete Arcane for details.

It also takes a full round action to call it, allowing you to cast it in the following round.

Fizban
2009-04-08, 02:38 AM
Sticking with core:
Forcecage (7th) + Quickened Cloudkill (9th). Slow, painfull and save-free death. (Granted, the enemy can't be immune to ability damage, poison and can't wear a Necklace of Adaptation. Also, it cannot be able to teleport without LoS, but a dimension anchor can solve this issue).

But versatility is the reason Wizards are better than Sorcerer, quicken is just a bonus. With the shenaningans you mentioned, a sorcerer can also output a lot of spells in one round. But he has limited capability to actually compose killer combos.

Ah, I see. Wizard versatility enables spell combos which quicken lets you do all at once. You're still spending two spells on one total attack though, and with quicken it's now two of your highest, of which you only get 2 or 3. It is a pretty good thing to have available though.


It's just the extra spells per round. And sorcerers do get it, but instead of +4 to one of the spell slots, it costs them a third spell slot. Personally, I'll take my +4 and keep my extra spell slot.

And if you really like your quickened spells, there's a feat in Complete Mage that lets you make a second casting of a spell metamagicked without eating up the higher-level slot. Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion in round 1, and the next round you get to do it again but without giving RoEnfeeble the +4 adjustment. If you're into damage, Quickened Scorching Ray + Scorching Ray, and the next round you get Quickened Scorching Ray without the adjustment. It's a good feat that gets a *lot* better with Quicken.
As a sorcerer, you have plenty of spell slots, and a 7th level spell known for Arcane Spellsurge is a small price to pay for quicken all your spells every fight. For a wizard I could see quicken being better in conserving individual slots, but they still both have the ability to speed it up. Or if you're using Arcane Fusion, you get two spells for one slot, and the second one would actually take a higher slot than that to quicken!

As for the feat, I've seen it too, but I'm pretty sure it's not something "most wizards" would take. If used in combat, you're assuming that your first *metamagicked* spell didn't win the fight by preparing an extra non-meta copy, which will be much less useful if you don't use it with the combo, or are prevented from doing so. A sorcerer on the other hand, specializes in beating his head against the wall: recasting the same generally useful spell over and over until someone fails a save, and the feat lets a sorcerer do so without blowing all their high level slots, and without planning to do so ahead of time. Using it on quicken specifically, I just don't think there are many uses aside from Ray of Exhaustion, Enevation, or direct damage, that a wizard could make good use of it.

In any case, I've successfully created a tangent, so assuming I could manage to derail the thread, I'll just get back on topic :smallwink:

Agreed that there is pretty much no catch to taking Mage of the Arcane Order. You get back all the feats you burn to enter it over time, while also gaining the ability to call one top tier spell per day that you don't know: no downsides. I'd see if you could get your DM to let you have the bonus spells known as well, though that's not likely.

Also, don't for get about the Extra Spell feat. If you manage to have feats left over after your metamagic and prerequisites, you can always just grab another spell known: there's always something good to learn.