Rules do not apply

[GSFB]

...to epic spells resulting from the Soul Splice.

There is no point trying to determine what may or may not happen with these spells, or what the game mechanics are, or what the DC is, or anything.

The Soul Splice itself is, as explained by the IFCC, not in any rule book.

The power of the spells cast by V is enhanced beyond what they should normally be, because the power of the the three (or two) epic casters is merged, along with V's own power, in a manner that is not in any rule book.

The spells do exactly what the author wants them to do for the purpose of plot, and no amount of postulating on the meaning of the spells and the rules matters one whit.

And, as we have already lost one soul from the splice and V is now close to reuniting with Haley and the rest, odds are the author intends the rest of the splice to slip away soon. There may be a few more epic spells that defy logic, rules, etc., but they will simply be plot devices and there will be no point trying to define them in game rule terms.

But of course, if you have fun doing that, don't let me stop you...

[Roderick_BR]

Technically, no epic spell is in any book (except for the example ones, and a few in some books), so anything is fair play. Look around the forum and you'll find some spells people here made, even more powerful than what was shown in the comic.
But yeah, since all epic spells are "new", so you can expect anything to show up.

Doesn't stop people from guessing how to make up that with epic level's current rules.

[factotum]

The rules for epic spells are pretty unambiguous, though; an Epic spell has a certain spellcraft DC which the caster must roll against their spellcraft skill in that particular area to see if they succeed. A spell like Familicide can be shown to have a spellcraft DC so high that not even the highest level caster would be likely to be able to cast it, which makes the splice irrelevant--it makes V the most powerful arcane caster there has ever been, but it doesn't make him able to ignore spellcraft DC limits.

[Omegonthesane]

The rules for epic spells are pretty unambiguous, though; an Epic spell has a certain spellcraft DC which the caster must roll against their spellcraft skill in that particular area to see if they succeed. A spell like Familicide can be shown to have a spellcraft DC so high that not even the highest level caster would be likely to be able to cast it, which makes the splice irrelevant--it makes V the most powerful arcane caster there has ever been, but it doesn't make him able to ignore spellcraft DC limits.
Depends how you handle it. I'm sure some rules lawyer managed to get a DC 159 Familicide with abuse of the Transport seed, somewhere.

[Undead Prince]

Depends how you handle it. I'm sure some rules lawyer managed to get a DC 159 Familicide with abuse of the Transport seed, somewhere.

The most efficient method involved Contact + Slay.

[Undead Prince]

...to epic spells resulting from the Soul Splice.

There is no point trying to determine what may or may not happen with these spells, or what the game mechanics are, or what the DC is, or anything.

The Soul Splice itself is, as explained by the IFCC, not in any rule book. The power of the spells cast by V is enhanced beyond what they should normally be, because the power of the the three (or two) epic casters is merged, along with V's own power, in a manner that is not in any rule book.

The Splice may be unique, but the casters are not. The author usually pays heed to rules of the game (that's one of the purposes of the comic, to play off of the rules), and Epic Spellmaking rules are very concise and explicit.

We managed to develop a Familicide with a reasonable casting DC that could be cast by a character with combined Spellcraft from 3 reasonably epic mages and one 14th level Wizard.

I don't see any reason at this point to utterly disregard the epic spellcasting rules. It goes against the spirit of the comic, and does not follow from the comic events.



And, as we have already lost one soul from the splice and V is now close to reuniting with Haley and the rest, odds are the author intends the rest of the splice to slip away soon. There may be a few more epic spells that defy logic, rules, etc., but they will simply be plot devices and there will be no point trying to define them in game rule terms.

Please name 1 epic spell that V cast that defied logic and the rules.

[derfenrirwolv]

Well, all rules apply as much as they normally do, but these being epic spells and all they're more like guidelines.

[JJ48]

I think a more likely theory is that the rules don't apply...when it's convenient to the storyline that they don't apply. I mean, yes, the author seems pretty intent on maintaining the rules, but at the same time, given the right circumstances, the rules CAN be broken, if doing so results in a clever and/or funny situation. Two examples of such are the Control Weather that Durkon used to break the druid's trees, and the Symbol of Insanity that Xykon used against the paladins. In the first instance, yes, Thor is a god, and thus has a bit of leeway, but ultimately, the fact that it worked was because it was a clever and humorous way to end the battle.

The Symbol of Insanity is even better proof of this, as, if my understanding is correct, Symbols cannot be used offensively like that. So, again, it worked simply because it was a clever way to clear out the throne room of (living) opponents, for Xykon.

That being said, whether the splice follows existing rules or creates new ones, I think it is evident that any such rules can be broken, if it is dramatically vital that they do so. (Vital to the drama, I mean.)

[Zevox]

The Symbol of Insanity is even better proof of this, as, if my understanding is correct, Symbols cannot be used offensively like that. So, again, it worked simply because it was a clever way to clear out the throne room of (living) opponents, for Xykon.
Actually, that one's quite possible. Just cast the symbol on the ball and set it to activate when touched, then touch the symbol just before tossing the ball. Since Xykon is immune to mind-affecting effects, he doesn't have to worry about being affected by it when it starts going off either.

Zevox

[JJ48]

Actually, that one's quite possible. Just cast the symbol on the ball and set it to activate when touched, then touch the symbol just before tossing the ball. Since Xykon is immune to mind-affecting effects, he doesn't have to worry about being affected by it when it starts going off either.

Zevox

But, if I remember correctly, the caster is immune to activating his own symbols, as well as immune to the effects of them.

...or maybe I'm misreading the whole thing. I think the main point I made still stands, in that the rules CAN be broken, when it becomes necessary to do so.

[derfenrirwolv]

As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can’t trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death’s triggering conditions cannot be changed.

Any creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.

Insert death for insanity. You can't put it on a sword and trigger it to go off, but you CAN put it on a mobile object. The object has to be prominent and not hidden for it to work: the bouncy ball was not hidden and very prominent as it bounced around the room. An old player trick is to put it on a shield with a cover on it and then remove the cover. The symbol was probably set to read or look at, and how do you NOT look at a bouncy ball?

If you want to look at a better example, try V's time spent as a lizard. With baleful polymorph you loose all your class abilities, and casting spells is a class ability, so he shouldn't have been able to do even the spells with no semantic or material components

[MadScientistMat]

Sometimes it appears that Rule of Funny supersedes Rules of d20 here.

[Zevox]

But, if I remember correctly, the caster is immune to activating his own symbols, as well as immune to the effects of them.

...or maybe I'm misreading the whole thing.
You're misremembering it. The caster can choose to attune himself and/or any number of other creatures to the symbol in order to render him/them immune to activating it and to its effects, but does not have to. And if he does not, he can activate the symbol himself, he just has to deal with potentially being affected by it should he do so. But again, not an issue for Xykon, who is immune to mind-affecting affects by virtue of being undead anyway.


I think the main point I made still stands, in that the rules CAN be broken, when it becomes necessary to do so.
Of course. The comic has never followed the rules precisely anyway.

Zevox

[GSFB]

Another interesting wrench in the works for rules lawyers is that, in all probability, the three "epic level" casters have been dead since long before "epic level rules" were published.

In the original comic strip, the Order is "upgraded" to version 3.5.

Haley's dad was a first edition thief.

There was a cave full of monsters from previous editions in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

Clearly, the pattern indicates that, once upon a time, PCs, NPCs and monsters in the OotS World were under the aegis of previous editions.

The three casters spliced to V have, presumably been dead for a very, very long time. They certainly predate the Order of the Scribble, because casters that powerful surely would have become involved with world-changing plotlines.

Thus, we can assume they go back at least as far as AD&D, or Chainmail, or perhaps they PREDATE ALL GAME RULES.

They are 100% creatures of plot, with no connection whatsoever to any game rules, because game rules didn't even come into existence until long after they entered the Lower Planes.

Makes you think, huh?

[factotum]

Not really, no. Haley's dad was a First Edition thief. Haley is age 24, I believe, which means she herself was born long before 3rd edition hit the streets, and her father must have been born before AD&D was even created. Additionally, in SoD:


We see Professor Xavius talking to Xykon about an order of Sorcerers back when Xykon was a teenager, which is some 90 years before the current events. Sorcerers as a class didn't even exist in First Edition, so how did Xykon become one long before Haley's father was a First Edition thief?


In short, you can't take something that was intended as a joke in the early days of the strip (the First Edition thief thing, the monsters from earlier editions, OtOoPCs taking place in original 3rd edition) and extrapolate an entire theory from it, because the later material contradicts that.

[GSFB]

Actually, "sorcerer" is the term for 9th level magic users in AD&D. While the context may not be right, the terminology certainly applies to AD&D -- of course, as you say, you can't read to much into it when it is a joke.

As for Haley being 24: she hasn't been an adventurer the whole time. Even if she had been adventuring for almost 9 years, she would still be a 3E character from the get-go.

Haley's dad may be much older than AD&D, but seeing as how AD&D is over 30 years old and Haley is only 24, it is entirely plausible that Haley's dad began his career as a PC under AD&D rules.

Which again leads up back to the question: what is the deal with characters who predate AD&D, or, for that matter, who predate the very idea of characters in a fantasy setting? What rules would have applied to them?

The answer is: whatever rules the author wants to. If Xykon started casting spells 90 years ago or whatever, he wasn't bound by 3.5, or 3.0, or 2E or AD&D. He was bound by whatever the author feels like retroactively applying. If, for continuity purposes, the author wants to say Xykon could spontaneously cast spells from childhood, then he can -- and that power gets "rule zeroed" into effect upon the arrival of AD&D 30 some years ago.

Ditto for the souls in the splice. They predate rules. The author can make up whatever rules he wants. And, as implied by the IFCC, you won't find rules in any book.

Therefore, it is pointless to try to define their epic spells using 3.5 epic rules or any other rule set.

[hamishspence]

I recall second ed era D&D novels defining sorcery as the summoning of extraplanar beings. Especially R. A. Salvatore.