GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread

[ErrantX]

Well, the first idea isn't really as complicated as you think, I suspect. Why do so many powers have to be dependent on the psicrystal's personality? Wouldn't just one or two for flavor be sufficient, with the rest of the class more focused on actually manifesting psionic abilities? I also see no reason to keep the power list determined purely by crystal personality. Or, if you do, keep it simple. Grant each crystal access to a Psion discipline (or two, or three), so the combination are easy to make and recognize.

The other options is also amazing, in my mind. I've always loved the flavor of the Reforged class (a Warforged trying to become more human), and this is right in that vein of things.

This is just my opinion, but I'd love to see either of those classes. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: ErrantX...could you take a look at THIS CLASS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116741), and tell me if it fits the criteria (it grants new Bardic Music abilities). I just whipped it up and am rather fond of it, and have considered having it take the place of the Eerie Traveler for this contest...so I'd like to know. Is it a better fit to the contest?

I agree with you in your assessment of Salvonus' Psiforged idea. I say go with it, Salvonus.

As far as your Restless Troubadour, while I like it (I read it over and it is in fact, quite awesome), I do not think that it fits as it does not rebuild or grant its own spellcasting; that is the primary requirement of this contest. It would have been great last contest :P


Ugh, I realized I misunderstood the concept after I posted the class. I could probably tweak it to be in-concept (and it wouldn't be THAT hard), but I can't do that now. Would it be a problem if it stayed up for a day or two before it's completely done?

It's cool, just know that if it doesn't get altered or what have you by the end of the contest, it will not be considered in the voting, that's all. Please, by all means, give it its own individual manifesting abilities and it is ready to rock and roll.

-X

[ErrantX]

Wyrdmage is up!

It doesn't appear up now :(

As it stood it was a very neat class, I'd suggest at the very least reposting it into the main homebrew forum as a solo thing. If you wanted to re-enter it into the contest, that'd be awesome too, it just needs to have its own separate spellcasting to be able to qualify.

-X

[fetfet]

I took it down. It's fine, I've got other ideas for other contests.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I took it down. It's fine, I've got other ideas for other contests.

But...but...but...

Can you at least post it elsewhere? I quite enjoyed the class, personally, and wanted a chance to look over it again...it was something I'd seriously consider using myself.

[fetfet]

Me and Gwynn chan'r Gwyll are making a binder presitge class. Does that involve simply adding vestiges, or something else?

[ErrantX]

Me and Gwynn chan'r Gwyll are making a binder presitge class. Does that involve simply adding vestiges, or something else?

It just has to be a prestige class with it's own progression of something akin to spellcasting. Binding is a perfectly acceptable method, so long as it does not improve on binding from the Binder class with +1 to existing binder level shenanigans :)

-X

[fetfet]

Ah. OK, I'll make sure to inform Gwyn.

[TSED]

I probably won't take a crack at the other idea in my head, though. It's just far too obscure - very few PCs (or NPCs) would ever take it.

... Sir, I invite you to look at MY entry.

An undead / deathless seeking soul-redemption is probably less obscure than a wizard being polymorphed into a small amphibian and liking it.


On the topic of the Reshaped, can I get a PEACH? I kind of whipped it up in a hurry and I think it needs more work done on it, but I don't know what bits need polishing.

Also, any way to keep class-granted SLAs without turning warlocks into unstoppable behemoths of power would be appreciated.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Also, any way to keep class-granted SLAs without turning warlocks into unstoppable behemoths of power would be appreciated.

Honestly? Just do it. Warlocks will have, at most, 6 Invocation, and each will be Lesser or Least Invocations. That may be decent in some cases, but it's far from overpowering.

In fact, I see no reason not to allow any and all class abilities to transfer.

[TSED]

Honestly? Just do it. Warlocks will have, at most, 6 Invocation, and each will be Lesser or Least Invocations. That may be decent in some cases, but it's far from overpowering.

In fact, I see no reason not to allow any and all class abilities to transfer.

Look at the early scale.

A full caster at level 11 getting the best possible spellcasting mechanic (here's some spells, yep, cast them at will) although not quite the best spell list. Oh suddenly you have 5d6 sneak attack on top of being a full caster.

Or imagine an 11th level sorcerer who has a ton of extra 'spells known' in addition to every warlock class feature.

It evens out a bit at the later levels, but early on it's too gestalt-y.

Although that could be a decent class feature, to find a way to get ahold of your old abilities... Hmm.

[ErrantX]

@ozgun92

Hey, if you figured out what you're going to do with your class? I'd love to see it fit the contest here.

I'm wondering if I created a less than interesting contest this time... sad panda. :smallfrown:

-X

[TSED]

@ozgun92

Hey, if you figured out what you're going to do with your class? I'd love to see it fit the contest here.

I'm wondering if I created a less than interesting contest this time... sad panda. :smallfrown:

-X

I think people are just unsure of what direction they should take their class.

I changed 'Slippery' (an ability that didn't do much at all) with 'Relearning.' Now, a 20th level Reshaped has up to 9 SLAs from their prior life and up to 2 (Ex) abilities from their prior life. I think this is rather believable.

[ErrantX]

I think people are just unsure of what direction they should take their class.

Then questions! Ask questions! I want to answer them so I can get a bunch of classes this time too. I was hoping this was a wide open one, but I think it was a little too wide open, ya know? If this one falls short of my expectations, then I know what I did wrong. Either way. Better luck for me next contest :P

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Then questions! Ask questions!

Alright. Questions I can do.

Are you going to look over the classes and offer some critique like I seem to remember you doing for the last one? I'm curious as to how the Eerie Traveler worked out, and I'd love to know anything out of place. :smallbiggrin:

[ErrantX]

Of course Djinn, the past week has been the week from hell for me, and I should be able to sit down and critique this week. My work explodes for me around the beginning of the month so I have mostly just been very tired. Expect critiques starting tomorrowish, as time allows.

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

I've got a few ideas and a few questions:

- Can we submit an entirely new kind of spellcasting?

- Can this "spellcasting" be supernatural abilities (I'm thinking of a PrC for the Harrowed here...)?

That said, I have a few ideas:

Infernomancers are specialists; namely, in blowing **** up. Blood-stained and drawing their might from the ruinous powers of Hell, the Abyss, the Unseelie, or whomever will entreat with them, Infernomancers are to Daemon Magi what nuclear weapons are to land mines. Theme: In the beginning, there was fire.

The Forlorn walk a dangerous path; they open their bodies and souls to the Monster Within, daring to wrench ever-greater power from it at the risk of releasing it from its prison. Daring, audacious, and probably more than a little suicidal, each Forlorn must cut their own path through life, lest they have it cut for them. Theme: When you gaze long into the abyss...

The Wretched are spellcasters cut off from their former source of power. Now broken, scrabbling things, these wretches must steal their power from others, sapping at their souls and minds in order to taste once more the world-shaking might they once possessed. Theme: I'm not addicted. I can quit any time I want to.

[Owrtho]

As much fun as the first and last idea sound, I'd most enjoy seeing the second one. It would be nice to see more done with your harrowed class (speaking of which did you ever take a look at the PRC I made for it (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106072))? Though any discussion of it should be done in either that thread or your harrowed thread to keep this one on topic).
Anyways, after the forlorn I'd most likely suggest the Infernomancers, but thats because I really like fire. The Wretched seems to be the more interesting concept of the two though.

Owrtho

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I think the Wretched fit the feel of the contest better, as the Forlorn seem flavored to progress an already existing ability, thus making them unable to qualify for this contest.

And I think it has to be spells/powers/maneuvers/invocations/binding/shadowcasting and so forth. When I asked about my Restless Troubadour, which learns new Bardic Music, I was told that it did not qualify. So I think you're on more solid ground with the Wretched.

[ErrantX]

As much as I love your Harrowed, I'd say go with your Wretched idea. It fits the theme of the contest better.

If you're going to create a new sort of casting mechanic, make sure to include all the rules needed to run it. I always subscribed to the philosophy of 'Keep It Simple, Stupid." But if you can create a new sort of spellcasting mechanic and want to try it out here, go nuts.

A suite of spell-likes is fine, such as invocations, but just be careful with those (unless they follow the same sort of thing as invocations).

-X

[Ascension]

I want to build a Soulknife upgrade PrC for this contest. Here are my ideas so far, if you wouldn't mind I'd like to hear which one you'd most like to see developed...

Sword of God: The Soulknife swears allegiance to a higher power, binding him or herself to a strict code of conduct in exchange for limited divine casting and various effects based on the alignment of the being s/he agrees to serve.

Bladewarper: Through meditation the Soulknife achieves a greater understanding of his or her mind, thus greater control over his or her mind blade. This class would offer a wide selection of blade shapes, rapid improvement of the mind blade itself, and a selection of spell-esque (I hesitate to say spell-like) "Warp Blade" abilities. Blade warps would be a mixture of buffs applied directly to one's mind blade and spell-esque effects achieved through manipulation of one's blade. Bladewarpers might be able to warp their mind blade into a spear tens of feet long in order to make a line attack, for example, or might manifest their blade in a distant square like a Spiritual Weapon.

The Sword of God is obviously simpler, though I won't even begin to claim that the Bladewarper's abilities would be entirely original... they'd probably simply be reskinned spells for the most part. Given the time frame involved in this contest and the fact that I'm free for the summer, I'm more than willing to try to develop either.

[ErrantX]

@Ascension

Your Sword of God class fits the bill, where as the other one, while really neat (Build it and put it up!) does not fit. I say go with that. Either give it a small pool of divine (easier) OR... give it mantles like an Ardent or Divine Mind (Complete Psionic).

Either would be good, but I must personally say it would be neater for the Ardent or Divine Mind like progression with psionic mantles.

-X

[Ascension]

Problem is I don't have Complete Psionic, and I've never gone near an Ardent or Divine Mind. I'll take that under advice, though.

Sword of God it is... for the contest, at least. I actually think I might expand Bladewarper to a base class and simply present it as an alternative to Soulknife instead of an upgrade pack. Or at least I'll try.

[ErrantX]

Problem is I don't have Complete Psionic, and I've never gone near an Ardent or Divine Mind. I'll take that under advice, though.

Sword of God it is... for the contest, at least. I actually think I might expand Bladewarper to a base class and simply present it as an alternative to Soulknife instead of an upgrade pack. Or at least I'll try.

If nothing else it would make for an excellent PrC or for a great set of ACF's for Soulknife.

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

Alrighty; I'll get the Wretched written up and then try to post 'em sometime within the next week.

Are you accepting ideas for new contests?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alrighty; I'll get the Wretched written up and then try to post 'em sometime within the next week.

Are you accepting ideas for new contests?

Speaking of new contests...I discussed this with ErrantX, and wanted to run it by everyone to see if there was any interest.

Speaking strictly for myself, I want to see more homebrew on the boards...and also always want to submit multiple entries into this particular contest. Thus, in the interest of generating more creations, I've toyed with the idea of starting a second PrC contest that will overlap with ErrantX's. His is six weeks long (42 days). My proposed contest would start 21 days into this (or July 17) and also run for weeks, giving a three week period to create a class for either contest without having to multitask (unless your entry is during the last two weeks of one contest).

I was also debating a new method of setting the "theme." Rather than posting criteria or a written theme, I thought of providing an image to be used for inspiration. The class so created wouldn't need to represent the image completely, but should be, in some manner, drawn from the picture. If the image was a tattooed shaman, for example, a mystic/wiseman class would be appropriate, a spirit shaman or Binder PrC with a bit of nature or spirit flavor, a tattooed caster of some sort, or anything else with some connection to the image...basically, it's a starting point to let your mind wander just like this current contest's prompts, but aiming at a different part of the brain.

Thoughts?

[Lord_Gareth]

That, my friend, sound like a plan ^_^

[Ascension]

I definitely like the idea of using an image as inspiration. For one thing, it'd relieve us of the burden of trying to find a picture representative of the class. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find good pictures for Soulknife prestige classes. Light-swords aren't hard to find, but fully insubstantial blades? No hilt? It's a hassle.

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, I've got a couple of mechanics that I'd like to get critiqued before I start doing the rest of the class:

Siphon Magic (Su): The Wretched can no longer use their own spells, but their addiction still demands to be fed, clawing away at their minds and souls in its hunger. By making a melee touch attack, a Wretched can bestow a single negative level upon a creature that casts arcane or divine spells. Each time the Wretched bestows a negative level this way, that creature loses all prepared spells (or spell slots) in the lowest-level of magic that it still has prepared spells (or slots) available in. The Wretched immediately gains those spells as if he knew them, and may cast them as normal (subject to his spells per day). Spells prepared with metamagic effects are stolen with those effects intact.

Each hour that the Wretched goes without a fresh infusion of spells, he loses the highest-level spells he knows. Should the Wretched go a day or more without spells, he is afflicted with the debilitating madness of his addiction; he is dealt 1 point of intelligence, wisdom, and charisma damage per day that he fails to drain spells in this manner.

[mercurymaline]

I think the stealing spells effect is plenty powerful, without also needing to bestow negative levels. And damage to 3 scores every day for not using it is...a lot. I hope it's a high magic world you're running.

[Lord_Gareth]

The reason they're bestowing negative levels is because they're sapping souls. And the damage/day is sort of an...emphasis. They're the wretched, not, "Those uber badasses that run around stealing everyone's spells, WEEEE!"

[Salvonus]

Hmm... I think I may have found another interesting idea that I might tackle. :smalltongue: Still plenty of time.

[mercurymaline]

The reason they're bestowing negative levels is because they're sapping souls. And the damage/day is sort of an...emphasis. They're the wretched, not, "Those uber badasses that run around stealing everyone's spells, WEEEE!"

Alright, rather powerful ability, hefty drawback. If that's what you're going for, groovy, and I think it does balance. It's just not something I would use, is all I'm saying.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Okay, I've got a couple of mechanics that I'd like to get critiqued before I start doing the rest of the class:

Siphon Magic (Su): The Wretched can no longer use their own spells, but their addiction still demands to be fed, clawing away at their minds and souls in its hunger. By making a melee touch attack, a Wretched can bestow a single negative level upon a creature that casts arcane or divine spells. Each time the Wretched bestows a negative level this way, that creature loses all prepared spells (or spell slots) in the lowest-level of magic that it still has prepared spells (or slots) available in. The Wretched immediately gains those spells as if he knew them, and may cast them as normal (subject to his spells per day). Spells prepared with metamagic effects are stolen with those effects intact.

Each hour that the Wretched goes without a fresh infusion of spells, he loses the highest-level spells he knows. Should the Wretched go a day or more without spells, he is afflicted with the debilitating madness of his addiction; he is dealt 1 point of intelligence, wisdom, and charisma damage per day that he fails to drain spells in this manner.

Since it's the lowest spell level they possess, this is probably fairly balanced. I would, however, make the attack take a standard action (no need to be dealing 3 negative levels/round as WELL as sapping three levels of spells). Also, possibly allow a Will save to negate part (the spell-sapping) or all of the attack.

The drawback is hefty, but understandable, and not to hard to deal with. I like it.

[TSED]

Speaking of new contests...I discussed this with ErrantX, and wanted to run it by everyone to see if there was any interest.

Speaking strictly for myself, I want to see more homebrew on the boards...and also always want to submit multiple entries into this particular contest. Thus, in the interest of generating more creations, I've toyed with the idea of starting a second PrC contest that will overlap with ErrantX's. His is six weeks long (42 days). My proposed contest would start 21 days into this (or July 17) and also run for weeks, giving a three week period to create a class for either contest without having to multitask (unless your entry is during the last two weeks of one contest).

I was also debating a new method of setting the "theme." Rather than posting criteria or a written theme, I thought of providing an image to be used for inspiration. The class so created wouldn't need to represent the image completely, but should be, in some manner, drawn from the picture. If the image was a tattooed shaman, for example, a mystic/wiseman class would be appropriate, a spirit shaman or Binder PrC with a bit of nature or spirit flavor, a tattooed caster of some sort, or anything else with some connection to the image...basically, it's a starting point to let your mind wander just like this current contest's prompts, but aiming at a different part of the brain.

Thoughts?

I'll participate.

I know that I keep wishing that you could make more than one entry to this contest.

[Dante & Vergil]

I have had an idea for a presteige class that gains an some great arcane power at the cost of selling one's soul to dark masters. The problem is I don't have anything in the crunch department to finalize this price, other than not being able to be brought back to life by any means short of divine intervention.

[Emong]

I have had an idea for a presteige class that gains an some great arcane power at the cost of selling one's soul to dark masters. The problem is I don't have anything in the crunch department to finalize this price, other than not being able to be brought back to life by any means short of divine intervention.

Maybe you could use Con penalties to represent the fact that their power wasn't meant to be used by mortals. (Or whatever justification you want to use.)

[Dante & Vergil]

Maybe you could use Con penalties to represent the fact that their power wasn't meant to be used by mortals. (Or whatever justification you want to use.)

That might work, but I'll make it wisdom drain or something if the character is undead. That way there's no evading it.

[TSED]

That might work, but I'll make it wisdom drain or something if the character is undead. That way there's no evading it.

You could make it a penalty to all stats except 2 of their choice, and they cannot choose a stat they don't have a score for?

[Kellus]

My entry is up– the Demon Corsair, a pirate who has sold his soul to the Lower Planes in exchange for a ship of pure evil. :smallamused:

[Kellus]

I finally finished my monster of a stat block, and thought I'd post my thoughts on the other entries. :smallsmile:

Reshaped

Very interesting idea. I really like the idea of somebody embracing their new form, and it allows for all sorts of fairy tale creatures that couldn't really have worked before. The mechanics seem fairly simple, but they work. A hard class to get into, but it certainly offers a lot.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how fond I am of you losing all your previous spellcasting. It makes sense with the character concept, but it would still be pretty annoying to a character to suddenly lose all their previous abilities. Since all reshaped start off pretty much identically at 11th level, there's going to be very little variation between individuals. Unfortunately, I don't really see a solution that keeps the idea of the class. :smallfrown:

Still, it's very nice and the spellcasting formulas work out great so you really just trade your spellcasting in for a new progression. You still get 9th level spells, so it's all good. :smallsmile:

EDIT: See my additional comments at the bottom.

Eerie Traveller

Very very cool. This class has character. The mechanics and the abilities seem to be fairly complex, which is a good thing. There are a lot of cool things you can do with this class, and any number of possible entry paths. Very interesting and very cool. I do like the invoking, but I'd suggest actually writing out the new ones you're making instead of summarizing it in a few words. If people are going to be playing it, they need all the information they'd normally have, such as effective spell level.

Great class, though. One thing that does annoy me a little is that Survival is the requisite skill to get in (which, okay, I guess for a wanderer) but you don't do anything with that skill once you're in the class. It's all about madness and chaos and terrible secrets. Doesn't really make sense. Knowledge (the Planes) would probably be a better bet for the 8 rank skill to get in. I do love the invocation progression, though. You've really thought it out nicely as far as the advancement goes.

Pariahmind

It's a funny one. I guess the basic idea is somebody that discovers latent powers and figures out how to use them by guesswork? It could work, but it strikes me as a concept that might work better as a shorter class that wouldn't interrupt your original path as much. I assume that the class has a medium BAB and a higher HD so as to represent that you're continuing your previous studies at the same time, and it would probably similarly make sense to raise skill points to 4 + Int for the same reason. Also, am I missing something, or does it not say what his manifester level is or the save DC for his powers?

As for his class features, they're very cool and relevant to the theme, but some info's missing. Take for example usurp. Do you get the drained power points? What if the drained power points exceed you total pp/day? Do the drained power power points come from the power points used to manifest the power against him, or from the manifester's unused power points? What if the manifester doesn't have enough power points to pay it? What if the extra power point cost makes him exceed his limit of power points spent on a single power?

Questions that need to be answered. :smalltongue:

Also, sequester is a cool idea, but it's missing a saving throw. As it stands, anybody that touches your mind pretty much dies. A cool concept, but I'd say pretty broken. I don't imagine many players being happy about this when they run into a pariahmind. At least put in a save, or require the pariahmind to spend power points to use it as an immediate action. Also, the text says 9th level, but the table says 10th.

Still, very cool idea that hasn't been explored in psionics so far! Neat!

Geomancer

It's certainly unique! A totally new 'casting' system! I need a bit more time before I can comment on this one, because I need to crunch some numbers and see what all it can actually do. I'll get back to this one!

Knight Unmaker

One of my favourites. Shadowcasting is awesome, and does not get enough support (or any, for that matter). Looks very awesome, and I like that you're making new mysteries for it too. However, and it's a big however, the spellcasting progression doesn't quite make sense. If you enter the class when you're supposed to (7th level?) you get a reasonable progression of shadowcasting. But the longer you delay your entry into it, the more powerful it becomes when you take your first level. Take, for example, a paladin 19/knight unmaker 1. On his first level into the class, he suddenly learns 12 mysteries of up to 9th level. In a single level. Obviously this is an extreme example, but I think it's a mistake to base it on effective paladin level rather than knight unmaker level. I understand the reason you chose to go with it, but I think having just the prestige class grant it might capture the feel of it better.

I LOVE that they cast them as divine spells, though. Does this qualify them to enter prestige classes that advance divine spellcasting? You might want to put a note in there about it. Otherwise, completely awesome. I love the steed, and the abilities fit perfectly. :smallsmile:

Energy Initiate

Never mind. I had a whole comment planned out, but then I realized that he withdrew this one from the contest. My bad! :smalleek:

... Now to start reading the geomancer in detail. :smalltongue:

EDIT: The daelkyr bloodlord, too. Also a very complex class, and I think I'm missing something. I'll have to get back to you on that one too. :smallwink:

EDIT the SECOND– On the topic of the reshaped again. After reading a bit more indepth on how relearning works, it alleviates some of my concerns. On the other hand, most spellcasting classes don't have that many Su or Ex abilities floating around. Also, you use an example of a warlock, who I suppose could enter with an invocation imitating dispel magic or baleful polymorph. But their incovations are spell-like abilities, which aren't applicable to relearning. So he wouldn't be able to relearn his eldritch blast, for example, as you claim.

Another thought I had for it, maybe allow them to retrain some of their feats that might not be relevant anymore? Maybe the same thing for skill points as well.

[mercurymaline]

I had meant for Sequester to mimic the microcosm power, which has no saving throw. Though, it is a 9th level power, and I agree, a bit broken. I'll add a save.

As for the rest, I'm glad for the critique, but it's come just before I leave for vacation. I'll hammer out the kinks as soon as I get back.

[Eurus]

Knight Unmaker

One of my favourites. Shadowcasting is awesome, and does not get enough support (or any, for that matter). Looks very awesome, and I like that you're making new mysteries for it too. However, and it's a big however, the spellcasting progression doesn't quite make sense. If you enter the class when you're supposed to (7th level?) you get a reasonable progression of shadowcasting. But the longer you delay your entry into it, the more powerful it becomes when you take your first level. Take, for example, a paladin 19/knight unmaker 1. On his first level into the class, he suddenly learns 12 mysteries of up to 9th level. In a single level. Obviously this is an extreme example, but I think it's a mistake to base it on effective paladin level rather than knight unmaker level. I understand the reason you chose to go with it, but I think having just the prestige class grant it might capture the feel of it better.

I LOVE that they cast them as divine spells, though. Does this qualify them to enter prestige classes that advance divine spellcasting? You might want to put a note in there about it. Otherwise, completely awesome. I love the steed, and the abilities fit perfectly. :smallsmile:

Ah, I didn't think about the impact of entering it at a later level. Maybe if I altered it so that you can trade in a number of levels of Paladin spellcasting progression up to your Knight Unmaker level, instead of all at once? You'd advance at a fast pace, but only if you have the Paladin levels to back it up.

As to the prestige class question, I'm not entirely sure. The question is, how balanced would it be? Right now I'm leaning toward only letting them qualify for prestige classes that don't specify arcane or divine, like Shadowcasters do. On the other hand, if a Paladin already had levels in a PrC that required divine spellcasting, it would be rather cruel to suddenly deprive them of it...

[Kellus]

Ah, I didn't think about the impact of entering it at a later level. Maybe if I altered it so that you can trade in a number of levels of Paladin spellcasting progression up to your Knight Unmaker level, instead of all at once? You'd advance at a fast pace, but only if you have the Paladin levels to back it up.

As to the prestige class question, I'm not entirely sure. The question is, how balanced would it be? Right now I'm leaning toward only letting them qualify for prestige classes that don't specify arcane or divine, like Shadowcasters do. On the other hand, if a Paladin already had levels in a PrC that required divine spellcasting, it would be rather cruel to suddenly deprive them of it...

Yeah, that's a toughie. What might work would be to specify that even if you enter at a higher level, you still need to have, say, at least one mystery of a lower level before you can learn a higher level mystery.

As for the PrCening, I think it would be fine (and a nice twist) to actually allow them to qualify for "divine caster level x" and "able to cast xth level divine spells" PrCs, and let them stack. Since they never transform them into spell-like and supernatural abilities, shouldn't be a problem. :smallsmile:

Would I be able to get a PEACH on the Demon Corsair? :smalltongue:

[Vaynor]

I'm working on my entry for this right now, gish type with strength based casting. :smallbiggrin:


Question: does the PrC have to use actual spells, or is utilizing magic in some fashion enough?

[Dante & Vergil]

I'm working on my entry for this right now, gish type with strength based casting. :smallbiggrin:


Question: does the PrC have to use actual spells, or is utilizing magic in some fashion enough?

I'm sure any magic is fine. Look at the Geomancer.:smallwink:

[ErrantX]

I'm working on my entry for this right now, gish type with strength based casting. :smallbiggrin:


Question: does the PrC have to use actual spells, or is utilizing magic in some fashion enough?

As Dante & Virgil said, any magic is fine so long as it doesn't advance a different class's casting.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

As Dante & Virgil said, any magic is fine so long as it doesn't advance a different class's casting.

True. It's in the Inferno, canto XII, line 117.

Really.

[Dante & Vergil]

True. It's in the Inferno, canto XII, line 117.

Really.

This is hillarious and awsome!
Edit:It's been sigged!

[Vaynor]

There we go, done with my entry. Thoughts/criticism would be nice.

[Kellus]

Hellfire Blade

Actually a really cool idea. You might want to cite Fiendish Codex II for people that don't actually know what hellfire is, though.

Hellfire Infusion is nice, although I don't think DR/+x exists in 3.5, so that aspects sort of unneccessary. It's enough to count as magic. Also, how exactly do you split +3d6 damage in half for a double weapon? Also, it strikes me that your attacks should also count as lawful-aligned.

The wording on suffering is unclear in two places. I think I know what you mean, but clarify 'the timer resets'. Also, 'double hellfire blade class level + Strength modifier' is a bad way to write it. It could be interpreted two ways.

Hellfire resistance would be really really really REALLY cool if it could recharge hellfirt power when it reduced a hellfire attack to 0 damage. :smallwink:

Hellfire burst is cool, but the DC is written unneccessarily complicated. Just say DC 10 + 1/2 class level + the hellfire blade's Strength modifier. Also, I'd probably make this cost more hellfire power.

Hellfire blast is worse than hellfire burst in almost every way. Also, don't use 1ft. increments. The system works on 5ft. squares.

Hellfire wings is just cool.

I think I'd avoid new feats just for a PrC, though. Prestige classes don't normally have feats specifically for them. Hellforged steel is very cool, though, although I feel like it should have some token benefit relating to hellfire. Maybe if armors also provided 1 point of hellfire resistance and weapons dealt 1 point of hellfire damage on each attack? (Although you'd have to increase the price of weapons with it)

Overall, very nice! We were clearly thinking along the same lines! This is a cool class, although I'm not sure if I'd really consider hellfire power 'spellcasting'. I don't even care, though, because it's awesome. :smallwink:

Any chance I could get some thoughts or criticisms of the demon corsair?

[Vaynor]

Hellfire Blade

Actually a really cool idea. You might want to cite Fiendish Codex II for people that don't actually know what hellfire is, though.

Hellfire Infusion is nice, although I don't think DR/+x exists in 3.5, so that aspects sort of unneccessary. It's enough to count as magic. Also, how exactly do you split +3d6 damage in half for a double weapon? Also, it strikes me that your attacks should also count as lawful-aligned.

The wording on suffering is unclear in two places. I think I know what you mean, but clarify 'the timer resets'. Also, 'double hellfire blade class level + Strength modifier' is a bad way to write it. It could be interpreted two ways.

Hellfire resistance would be really really really REALLY cool if it could recharge hellfirt power when it reduced a hellfire attack to 0 damage. :smallwink:

Hellfire burst is cool, but the DC is written unneccessarily complicated. Just say DC 10 + 1/2 class level + the hellfire blade's Strength modifier. Also, I'd probably make this cost more hellfire power.

Hellfire blast is worse than hellfire burst in almost every way. Also, don't use 1ft. increments. The system works on 5ft. squares.

Hellfire wings is just cool.

I think I'd avoid new feats just for a PrC, though. Prestige classes don't normally have feats specifically for them. Hellforged steel is very cool, though, although I feel like it should have some token benefit relating to hellfire. Maybe if armors also provided 1 point of hellfire resistance and weapons dealt 1 point of hellfire damage on each attack? (Although you'd have to increase the price of weapons with it)

Overall, very nice! We were clearly thinking along the same lines! This is a cool class, although I'm not sure if I'd really consider hellfire power 'spellcasting'. I don't even care, though, because it's awesome. :smallwink:

Any chance I could get some thoughts or criticisms of the demon corsair?

Yeah, I will cite it, I'll add that in in a second. I thought it was a type of DR, but I guess not. I'll change that. To split the damage you'd roll 3d6 and half it. Why on earth would they be lawful aligned? The class requires non-lawful.

I'll rewrite Suffering to make it clearer.

The idea for Hellfire Resistance is awesome. However, hellfire is pretty damn rare, making it mostly useless (except against a hellfire warlock or another hellfire blade). I'll add it in anyways, though, however useless it may be.

I'll rewrite the DC to make it clearer.

It's worse? It does slightly less damage to each target, but it's a pretty good radius. I'll probably end up changing the hellfire power cost for it anyways, so burst and blast are both 2.

Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

I know they don't normally, but I figured they're out there if they want em, and there's no harm in making them available. I know if I was playing one of these I'd probably pick up Maximize at least, maybe Quicken. I'll think about changing the hellforged steel, but I think it works as is. I don't want to make it too expensive.

Thanks a bunch! And I asked if utilizing magic was enough, and he said yes (magical fire), so IMO it's good enough.

I'll look yours over sometime tomorrow, I have to sleep now. :smallsmile:

[Kellus]

Why on earth would they be lawful aligned? The class requires non-lawful.

For the same reason that it makes your attacks evil-aligned; because it's hellfire. Even if you might be a nice guy, you're still channeling the powers of Baator, which is a lawful evil Plane.

EDIT: Actually, that being said, why can't you be lawful evil in this class? You'd think that would be the ideal alignment for someone playing with hellfire.

Also, I think I may have misunderstood the entrance requirements. You say "Any non-lawful evil". I interpreted that as "anything except lawful evil". Did you mean "Any evil except lawful evil"? Because it would probably just be simpler to say "neutral evil or chaotic evil". :smalltongue:

[Vaynor]

EDIT: Actually, that being said, why can't you be lawful evil in this class? You'd think that would be the ideal alignment for someone playing with hellfire.

Also, I think I may have misunderstood the entrance requirements. You say "Any non-lawful evil". I interpreted that as "anything except lawful evil". Did you mean "Any evil except lawful evil"? Because it would probably just be simpler to say "neutral evil or chaotic evil". :smalltongue:

Because, read the fluff. :smalltongue:
They destroy what they want and kill who they please. Anything but lawful.

I'll change the alignment.

Also, I edited the hellfire ability's hellfire power costs. Everything but Hellfire Infusion is now 2 hellfire power. Think that's good, or should I change it again?

[Kellus]

Because, read the fluff. :smalltongue:
They destroy what they want and kill who they please. Anything but lawful.

I'll change the alignment.

Also, I edited the hellfire ability's hellfire power costs. Everything but Hellfire Infusion is now 2 hellfire power. Think that's good, or should I change it again?

Works for me, it's your class. :smalltongue:

I think it was just the alignment requirement that I screwed up on when I was reading it, and I got the wrong idea of what the class was. I was paying more attention to the crunch than the fluff to give you a PEACH, and didn't pick up on what exactly the class was.

Costs look good; honestly, it's a great class! Anything to help out nonspellcasters! :smallsmile:

[Vaynor]

Costs look good; honestly, it's a great class! Anything to help out nonspellcasters! :smallsmile:

Thanks! And hush! It's a spellcaster... >.>

[Kellus]

Thanks! And hush! It's a spellcaster... >.>

No, you misunderstand. Nonspellcasters have the most to gain from going into the class, and I was saying that it's nice to have more and better options for those base classes. (phew!) :smallredface:

[Vaynor]

No, you misunderstand. Nonspellcasters have the most to gain from going into the class, and I was saying that it's nice to have more and better options for those base classes. (phew!) :smallredface:

Ooh, ok, I see what you mean. And yeah, that's the idea. I tried to make a gish-type PrC without requiring a spellcasting base class.

[Vaynor]

Demon Corsair

First off, it seems to me that a d6 hit die is a little low for a pirate. Maybe an increase to d8 would be appropriate. That said, I haven't read the rest of the class yet so I don't know how powerful it is, and will probably modify this sentence momentarily.

In your description of Bound Ship, your wording is slightly confusing. It reads:

profane bonus to its seaworthiness and shiphandling of +1, +1 per 4 class levels
Perhaps a comma (in bold for comparison) would be appropriate.
Also, what happens if someone steals his ship and he can't get it back? He loses out on a whole class feature! Maybe a way to designate a new ship after X days/weeks/months/years.

For the spellcasting, you say:

A demon corsair casts his spells like a sorcerer, and can thus cast any spell he knows at any time.
This can be shortened to "A demon corsair casts his spells spontaneously."

For the Black Wind Blows, what does this bonus refer to:

He gains a profane bonus on checks to gain the advantage in ship battles equal to half his class level.
Do you gain a bonus on attacks made with the ship? Bonus to the ship's AC? Or is there some "Gain the Advantage" ship ability in Stormwrack or otherwise that I'm not aware of?

For Kissed by Darkness, can the demon corsair negate this effect if he does not wish for the ship to be invisible?

[Kellus]

Ooh, thanks for the comments!


Demon Corsair

First off, it seems to me that a d6 hit die is a little low for a pirate. Maybe an increase to d8 would be appropriate. That said, I haven't read the rest of the class yet so I don't know how powerful it is, and will probably modify this sentence momentarily.

Hm. It's already a very potent class, and the d6 HD was based on the rogue. I think I'm happy with it, especially because he fights a lot of his battles from the helm of his ship.


In your description of Bound Ship, your wording is slightly confusing.

Aye. I can stick in a comma to make it easier to read, certainly. As for stealing the ship, that's the pirate's problem. He sold his soul for a demonic pirate ship, and if he can't hang onto it that's not the fiends' problem.


This can be shortened to "A demon corsair casts his spells spontaneously."

I suppose. As far as I can remember, most prestige classes that grant new spellcasting refer to a base class with regards to how it works. I'll double check this in a source, but I'll admit I wrote this bit out on the spot instead of copying the way it's been done in a book.


Do you gain a bonus on attacks made with the ship? Bonus to the ship's AC? Or is there some "Gain the Advantage" ship ability in Stormwrack or otherwise that I'm not aware of?

Mm, right. Yeah, gaining the advantage is part of the narrative naval combat system described in Stormwrack. I'll make sure to mention this in the class description. Ironically, this is the same thing I pointed out in your class with hellfire. :smalltongue:


For Kissed by Darkness, can the demon corsair negate this effect if he does not wish for the ship to be invisible?

Good idea. That would certainly make things a lot easier on him.

Changes will be made shortly.

[Vaynor]

Hm. It's already a very potent class, and the d6 HD was based on the rogue. I think I'm happy with it, especially because he fights a lot of his battles from the helm of his ship.

I was basing it off of the Dread Pirate prestige class (CAd), which grants a d8 hit die.


I suppose. As far as I can remember, most prestige classes that grant new spellcasting refer to a base class with regards to how it works. I'll double check this in a source, but I'll admit I wrote this bit out on the spot instead of copying the way it's been done in a book.

I wasn't looking at a book, it just seemed a little wordy to me.


Mm, right. Yeah, gaining the advantage is part of the narrative naval combat system described in Stormwrack. I'll make sure to mention this in the class description. Ironically, this is the same thing I pointed out in your class with hellfire. :smalltongue:

Gotcha. I figured that would be the case.

[Kellus]

I made the changes you proposed. I think I'll keep the d6 HD, though. The dread pirate is more swashbuckly stabbing things as opposed to the demon corsair who's more about commanding the ship.

I edited the spellcasting, hopefully it's a bit easier to read now. :smallsmile:

Thanks for the comments!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Just a heads up for you homebrewers out there: as ErrantX and I have discussed, I'm going to start running (if there's interest) a PrC competition that cuts halfway between his, to allow homebrewers to create more classes and get a little more competition. :smallbiggrin:

As it's now almost exactly halfway through ErrantX's contest (technically it's tomorrow), mine will be going up.

And here she is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6512299#post6512299)

I'll leave this as the Chat thread (given the two-three week break periods between the flood of homebrew), unless ErrantX wants to differentiate the two. Which would be fine...just let me know, alright X?

[DracoDei]

Sounds to ME like it would just divide people's energies, so that you get about the same total number of entries, but y'all know best I suppose.

If I enter anything in this one, which I might, I think that I will probably do a "Censer Master" who produces area buffs and debuffs via the cloud of smoke from his Censer, and occasionally whacks enemies who get too close in the head with it like a meteor hammer.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sounds to ME like it would just divide people's energies, so that you get about the same total number of entries, but y'all know best I suppose.

We did discuss this. ErrantX's contest gets most of its entries within the first two-three weeks...exactly the amount of downtime before the next contest starts. Then, likewise, most of the entries to the other contest should be finished before Errant's next contest is up.

And, if it fails, then there's very little harm done.


If I enter anything in this one, which I might, I think that I will probably do a "Censer Master" who produces area buffs and debuffs via the cloud of smoke from his Censor, and occasionally whacks enemies who get to close in the head with it like a meteor hammer.

Go for it. :smallbiggrin:

[ErrantX]

Yeah, go ahead Djinn, this is fine. Just make sure that when people are addressing your contest or mine, that they should make sure to specify.

I need to pay more attention to this contest, between work schedule changes and now roofers working on my apartment building directly over my bedroom, I've been so busy. Big thanks to those of you who are fielding questions and critiquing people's works, I will try to get to it this weekend.

-X

[TSED]

1) I really keep meaning to give a PEACH to every class in ErrantX's contest, but... Well, I suck. Let's go with that as an excuse as to why I haven't.

2) Frig, Djinn. I look at that picture and all I can think of is "that is totally a Heathen!" [See signature.] I'm not sure if I want to make a primitive lamp-bearing holy-man or a prestige class for aforementioned Heathen, so it'll take a while for the creative juices to kick in.

[TSED]

So, wow, this is really falling by the wayside right now.

Summer lull and all that jazz, I guess.

[ErrantX]

So, wow, this is really falling by the wayside right now.

Summer lull and all that jazz, I guess.

Basically...

Between new schedule and summer activities, I am well aware of the summer lull.

-X

[blueblade]

Hi,

I'm pretty new to the boards and I've loved looking back at the archive of these contests, the standards of the classes is extremely high and everyone should be very proud of themselves. I can only see X and XI. Are these archived anywhere?

[Vaynor]

All contests are archived in the first post of this thread.

[TSED]

Basically...

Between new schedule and summer activities, I am well aware of the summer lull.

-X

Yeah, but I feel like my entry to Djinn's contest is going to be the only one. :(


EDIT:: And on that topic, can I get a PEACH of the Witchlamp?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, I'm tossing my entry into the hat. I'll stat out the example in the morning.

I've always liked the Prestige Paladin because I think it more accurately represents the Martial Clergy aspect I always envisioned them being. I'm also familiar with 'Shell Shock', or PTSD as it is known today, and would imagine that after facing such horrors as have been dredged up in the depraved dreams of the DM, that some Paladins would suffer from such.

Inspiration from the Sublime Chord, giving Paladins a chance to be more of a caster, particularly if the party is in need of a healbot. Entry requirements are pretty steep because it is only a 5 level PrC.

I'm a bit worried about the vagueness of the spellcasting progression with regard to further increasing the casting progression beyond 5th level.

So, PEACH, how do ya like it so far?

[Kellus]

I'm working on a submission for the newer contest as well, have no fear!

[DeskChairLamp]

Also working on an entry for the second contest... It'll hopefully be done and posted in the next few days...

[fuzzywolf]

Hello, all. Longtime lurker, only rarely a poster. I started running a new D&D game recently, and seeing the new contest entries inspired me to homebrew some nastiness for them.

[ErrantX]

Last day for my contest people, ends at midnight!

-X

[Dante & Vergil]

I know I'm pushing the bar on time here, but is it ok if my class uses a variant of spellcasting that someone else created? I will give credit where credit is due, because I'm not that kind of guy.:smallwink:

[ErrantX]

I know I'm pushing the bar on time here, but is it ok if my class uses a variant of spellcasting that someone else created? I will give credit where credit is due, because I'm not that kind of guy.:smallwink:

That's fine, just credit the source and make sure that the rules for it don't require lots of extraneous reading (i.e. a 30 page word doc that you need to read to find out how to cast these spells).

-X

[Kellus]

Last day for my contest people, ends at midnight!

-X

ErrantX, any chance we can get reviews of the classes before the contest ends so we can tweak them, as you did last time? :smallwink:

[ErrantX]

If time will allow, I will try to do so tonight. I have read everyone's entries, just the past month has been crazy for me. I will endeavor to do so.

-X

[TSED]

ErrantX, any chance we can get reviews of the classes before the contest ends so we can tweak them, as you did last time? :smallwink:

I was going to peach everyone but I didn't, because I suck. ):


I haven't even done more than skimmed half the entries. ):

I am pretty sure I won't be able to do it, because I'm about to D&D as soon as people stop being late.

[ErrantX]

The voting thread is up!

Check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6600900)!

-X

[The Neoclassic]

I want to vote... but I notice several entries aren't complete (particularly the sample encounter section). Is it likely that most will get filled in quickly now since voting has begun?

[Kellus]

I want to vote... but I notice several entries aren't complete (particularly the sample encounter section). Is it likely that most will get filled in quickly now since voting has begun?

Actually, I don't think people are allowed to edit their entries at this point, since voting has started. You'll just have to decide which to vote for based on what's presented to you at this point. The sample character and other stuff isn't mandatory, but it does provide an additional way of showing off your creative chops to potential voters.

[ErrantX]

Couldn't have said it better myself Kellus. Sample stuff is nice, but I don't require it like Dman did. I like it if I get it, but otherwise, it's okay. So long as I get some fluff for the crunch.

-X

[The Neoclassic]

OK, thanks for the response! Time to think a bit more and then vote...

[The Witch-King]

I've posted my entry into the Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words Prestige Class Contest: the Hunting Slave. It's only my fourth homebrew and only my third class so I'd appreciate any comments anyone is williing to make on it, especially towards making it more balanced.

You can find it at:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6670891&postcount=7

Peach away!

Thanks!

[The Neoclassic]

I'm currently working on my entry for A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words. Suggestions or feedback is welcome; the class abilities, world info, and sample NPC are all far from done. :smallsmile:

[TSED]

I've posted my entry into the Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words Prestige Class Contest: the Hunting Slave. It's only my fourth homebrew and only my third class so I'd appreciate any comments anyone is williing to make on it, especially towards making it more balanced.

You can find it at:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6670891&postcount=7

Peach away!

Thanks!


This will be hard to incorporate into most other games. Maybe write a section on adding this empire etc. to other non-this-campaign-setting worlds?

You sure gave them a lot of class features. And then a dead level at 9th. That immediately strikes me as odd.

I don't think you're allowed weapons, which might equal it out a bit, but then you talk about weapons in your sneak attack. This is confusing.

The type changes are pretty powerful, I have to say. On top of your bajillion other class features. I'd say, overall... tone it down a little. You basically get to be most of a barbarian plus some rogue plus no longer susceptible to type-specific effects plus a bunch of natural armour in exchange for being a 'familiar' (share spell makes it even more wonderful, really, as you suddenly have access to NASTY range: personal spells) and not being 'allowed' to use weapons. (Notice the lack of mechanical prevention; it is all pure fluff that denies this. And barely any fluff at that - just a blurb about not being allowed to due to caste and a legal requirement to get into the class. What PC hasn't done illegal things?). There is some genuine prevention from going around in heavy armour, though, so that's fine.

[DracoDei]

They aren't allowed to use METAL weapons I think... so staff, club, sling (with stone bullets), bow or crossbow firing flint or obsidian arrow-heads, great-club, and all the javelin/spear varients with flint heads subbed in. Now granted that is probably a -1 to hit or damage or something for substituting flint for metal, but it is still a possibility.

[The Witch-King]

This will be hard to incorporate into most other games. Maybe write a section on adding this empire etc. to other non-this-campaign-setting worlds?

I addressed some ideas about putting the class into other settings such as having the Hunting Slave be a goblin slave or an Orc or Hobgoblin arcane spellcaster but I suppose I could always add more on that subject.



I don't think you're allowed weapons, which might equal it out a bit, but then you talk about weapons in your sneak attack. This is confusing.


As DracoDei pointed out, they aren't allowed metal weapons but can have wooden ones or ones made of wood and tipped with flint or obsidian. I'll try to make that more clear in the next version.


On top of your bajillion other class features. I'd say, overall... tone it down a little.

Well--I knew someone would say it... :smile:


You basically get to be most of a barbarian plus some rogue plus no longer susceptible to type-specific effects plus a bunch of natural armour in exchange for being a 'familiar' (share spell makes it even more wonderful, really, as you suddenly have access to NASTY range: personal spells) and not being 'allowed' to use weapons. (Notice the lack of mechanical prevention; it is all pure fluff that denies this.

First--I guess I just would like a little explanation about how bad the Type change is because I'm just not getting it. You mention being no longer susceptible to type-specific effects--are there a lot of type-specific effects that work with just the Humanoid type? Like what? As I said, I'm still new to this.

Second--I think you're right about the lack of mechanical prevention, so in the next version, I'm going to write it so that wearing metal armor prevents all benefits gained from Human Familiar. I'm also going to write it so carrying metal weapons disrupts Share Spells and the Empathic and Sending links (which will help if a player decides to run for it--all he or she has to do is grab enough metal and their owner couldn't as easily track them down.)

Thirdly--I'll take any suggestions you might have on abilities you think I should remove from the class as being extraneous. I'd like to keep the flavor of the class but if there's something you think could go without affecting that, please let me know.

Thanks for taking the time to look over my class and comment, I appreciate it! :biggrin:

[TSED]

As DracoDei pointed out, they aren't allowed metal weapons but can have wooden ones or ones made of wood and tipped with flint or obsidian. I'll try to make that more clear in the next version.

Right, right.




First--I guess I just would like a little explanation about how bad the Type change is because I'm just not getting it. You mention being no longer susceptible to type-specific effects--are there a lot of type-specific effects that work with just the Humanoid type? Like what? As I said, I'm still new to this.


Hold person. Charm person. Dominate. Enlarge person. Bane weapons. These are off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more. Anyways, turning into a non-person means you need a 9th level spell (Dominate Monster) instead of a 5th level spell (Dominate). This depends on the campaign and DM as to how big a deal it is, really.



Second--I think you're right about the lack of mechanical prevention, so in the next version, I'm going to write it so that wearing metal armor prevents all benefits gained from Human Familiar. I'm also going to write it so carrying metal weapons disrupts Share Spells and the Empathic and Sending links (which will help if a player decides to run for it--all he or she has to do is grab enough metal and their owner couldn't as easily track them down.)

Take a note from the druid book and any (Su) abilities are lost when using metal armour / weapons?


Thirdly--I'll take any suggestions you might have on abilities you think I should remove from the class as being extraneous. I'd like to keep the flavor of the class but if there's something you think could go without affecting that, please let me know.

I really don't know. There's too much going on to really be able to pinpoint one particular ability and say "do you really need this?" On top of that, a lot of the abilities are fairly inconsequential - +2 here, +2 there. Not that big a deal, right? Well... I don't know, really. Those kinds of things tend to be filler moments between the really cool stuff, but you basically fixed it by throwing a LOT of filler at them. It's not my design style so I really can't say anything.


Thanks for taking the time to look over my class and comment, I appreciate it! :biggrin:

No probs. (Feel free to reciprocate.)

[ErrantX]

New contest is up! Music and Lyrics, somethin' bardy :elan:

Check it out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121195)!

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

New contest is up! Music and Lyrics, somethin' bardy :elan:

Check it out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121195)!

-X

Curse you, Errant. This contest, when I've already put up the Restless Troubadour just a few weeks ago. :smallfrown:

Ah well...time for plan B...

[ErrantX]

Curse you, Errant. This contest, when I've already put up the Restless Troubadour just a few weeks ago. :smallfrown:

Ah well...time for plan B...

I live to spite :wink:

I'm sorry, just got the random tickle for something bardy. I'm thinking my next few contests are going to be based off of base classes and their unique abilities, and how certain prestige classes can improve upon them or bring them to a new level.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Cool. I'm up for base class specific PrCs. And I got a new idea for the Bard angle, so that's alright. :smallbiggrin:

[The Witch-King]

I made changes to the class:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6670891&postcount=7


Hold person. Charm person. Dominate. Enlarge person. Bane weapons. These are off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more. Anyways, turning into a non-person means you need a 9th level spell (Dominate Monster) instead of a 5th level spell (Dominate). This depends on the campaign and DM as to how big a deal it is, really.

I dropped the Magical Beast Type change but I kept the Fey Type change as part of the 10th level cap.


There's too much going on to really be able to pinpoint one particular ability and say "do you really need this?" On top of that, a lot of the abilities are fairly inconsequential - +2 here, +2 there. Not that big a deal, right? Well... I don't know, really. Those kinds of things tend to be filler moments between the really cool stuff, but you basically fixed it by throwing a LOT of filler at them. It's not my design style so I really can't say anything.

I stripped out the lesser abilities in the hopes that the main tropes of the class would come through. I'd appreciate it if you could let me know what you think of it now.


No probs. (Feel free to reciprocate.)

Thanks, I will! And thanks again for the feedback!

[Lord_Gareth]

I'll have something up - a bardic blaster :p I'll begin work on the Sons of Discord tonight ^_^

[The Neoclassic]

The Acolyte of Garfunkel made me laugh. Out loud. Very very hard. :smallbiggrin: Looks a bit powerful crunch-wise, but I still love it!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Acolyte of Garfunkel made me laugh. Out loud. Very very hard. :smallbiggrin: Looks a bit powerful crunch-wise, but I still love it!

Seconded. I'm a huge Simon and Garfunkel fan, so...

That said, if it's so lyric based, Aspect of Simon makes more sense...he did write most of their music. :smallbiggrin:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The Acolyte of Garfunkel made me laugh. Out loud. Very very hard. :smallbiggrin: Looks a bit powerful crunch-wise, but I still love it!


Seconded. I'm a huge Simon and Garfunkel fan, so...

That said, if it's so lyric based, Aspect of Simon makes more sense...he did write most of their music. :smallbiggrin:

It got the name mostly because I decided it was started by a guy named Simon N. Garfunkel, to pun off the duo's name, and going by the last name made more sense. Plus, though Simon did most of the lyrics, his name isn't as obvious; if you mention "Garfunkel" more people get the reference. Glad people like it, though. :smallbiggrin:

[Redikalus]

Wow.... the Empyreal Cantatrice is really powerful... too powerful if you ask me. Auspicious signs is the Luck domain's once per day granted power on every dice you roll... except better. Polyphony of the Moirai is basically an unbreakable, permanent Geas spell... 20 times per day. You can pretty much take over the world in a day or two with this class.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Wow.... the Empyreal Cantatrice is really powerful... too powerful if you ask me. Auspicious signs is the Luck domain's once per day granted power on every dice you roll... except better. Polyphony of the Moirai is basically an unbreakable, permanent Geas spell... 20 times per day. You can pretty much take over the world in a day or two with this class.

To be fair, a regular Diplomancer bard can basically do the same thing....

[DeskChairLamp]

The essential crunch for my class is done, although the samples and fluff aren't up yet. The wording's a bit vague since I've been busy and rather short on sleep. Anyway, hoping someone could give it a PEACH as it is...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6648927&postcount=6

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Wow.... the Empyreal Cantatrice is really powerful... too powerful if you ask me. Auspicious signs is the Luck domain's once per day granted power on every dice you roll... except better. Polyphony of the Moirai is basically an unbreakable, permanent Geas spell... 20 times per day. You can pretty much take over the world in a day or two with this class.

Yes. But bear in mind that Polyphony of the Moirai is a 20th level ability, than you have a poor BaB and only one good save, that you sacrifice the progression of your normal Bardic Music, and that you sacrifice your entire spell progression. You also can't enter the class before 11th level, and you get the abilities around the time that others...oh...let's see...

-Are tossing around Disintegrate and save-or-dies...
-Can cast Unluck several times a day, causing your enemies to have the opposite of Auspicious Signs...
-Can Gate in celestial armies or cast Wish...

And so on. I'm just bringing the Bard up to par in a new way. :smallbiggrin:

[Jogi]

Yay :P, just finished my entry.

Oooooh, at first I thought the Empyreal Cantatrice was kinda overpowered, but then I read what Djinn wrote and agreed. Beetwen, nice class. I enjoyed the flavor.

:smallsmile:

EXPLAINING THE BOW MINSTREL
This is to be read by those who felt curious about abilities names in this class. As a musician, I was thrilled by this contest, and decided to put some effort into giving bards new ways to evolve (As I think they were somewhat weaker than other classes). So, what I did was use real music ideas to create abilities. So, I'll start off with the new bardic musics: they are planned to represent a minor chord. You see, a minor chord is made by a tonic note, a minor third and a fifth (T 3m 5J) and can include a 7th (thus T 3m 5J 7). So, the First Note, Minor Fall, Major Lift and the Seventh Note ideas were taken from this concept (althought two of their names came from Leonard Cohen's Hallellujah). As for the other abilities: Presto and Adagio are the names for two musical dynamics - the first one is of very fast playing, and the second is a rather slow motion. Lastly, the Requiem, is a kind of music intended to honor the dead. Legend tells that Mozart was fooled into writing his own Requiem.
As for the class flavor: I wanted to create something cool (I find it awesome to think that each arrow shot is a sound) but not limited to organizations. Also, I don't really like codes of conduct, so I wanted the Minstrel to be a freebird (ops, another song lol).

PS: for those who didn't notice, Nevotheeb is Beethoven backwards .:smallbiggrin:.

[boomwolf]

Muhahaha! perfect!

Making a combat-oriented bard PrC, the Shockwave Piper.

Sonic attacks were never as cool.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Empyreal Cantatrice is pretty much complete. Thoughts? Does it need more power? More abilities? Would you like new abilities at levels 6 and 9 rather than simply another use of Auspicious Signs?

And, most importantly...does it have good flavor, and would you play it, given the chance?

[Jogi]

The Empyreal Cantatrice is pretty much complete. Thoughts? Does it need more power? More abilities? Would you like new abilities at levels 6 and 9 rather than simply another use of Auspicious Signs?

And, most importantly...does it have good flavor, and would you play it, given the chance?

On the powers:

- Echoes of Heaven is nice, but I think it should still be limited to a single question. I mean, at high levels you got so many uses of bardic music, and you could get too many questions possible.
- Reverberations is great. But maybe there should be some kind of resisted test when it comes to seeing trough illusions.
- Auspicious Undertaking might be hard to work in-game. I also think it is very powerful, maybe too much.
- Maybe new abilities at levels 6 and 9 would be better, as Auspicious Signs is very powerful. Right now it's like, thrice a week, you and your party (mostly) will have your failiure chances halved.

Also, a question: is it somehow possible that a Empyreal Cantatrice would be fooled, if the heavens themselves cursed her? Maybe some of the abilities should be related to her deity, thus, whenever dealing within the domains of the oposite deity, chance of failiure would occour. I dunno. Just ideas.

As for the flavor, it's great! Reminded me a bit of the Sybil of The Blinded Eye. They sound otherworldly, and yet capable of great deeds in this world. Yes, I'd definitely play it, but only in a group who does heavy roleplaying.

PS: can I get comments and ideas on my class too? ^^

[Jogi]

Bumping for great justice :elan: [2]

[boomwolf]

Agreed on the bump.

Moderators should really pin up this contest, it USED to be offical thing, but it seems they abandoned it...


Thinking about it-is any of them even AROUND? I don't remember seeing any of them post for a very long time now.
Silly thing is, we would not know if they are working unless sombody spams/flames, and nobody around here does these days. (a good thing. although quite strange.)

Anyways, Shockwave piper is going well, will be submitted sometime this week.

[Jogi]

Agreed on the bump.

Moderators should really pin up this contest, it USED to be offical thing, but it seems they abandoned it...


Thinking about it-is any of them even AROUND? I don't remember seeing any of them post for a very long time now.
Silly thing is, we would not know if they are working unless sombody spams/flames, and nobody around here does these days. (a good thing. although quite strange.)

Anyways, Shockwave piper is going well, will be submitted sometime this week.

Yay, sounds cool! I really wanted to see good bard classes, as the original bard sounds kinda weaker than other classes.

[TSED]

I originally had this awesome metal prestige class with a ton of subgenre thingummies going on and you could mix and match them for assorted different powers. You could advance one subgenre up to 5 times (once every even level, 10 level class) and either unlock a new ability from another subgenre freely, or an old subgenre at a higher level.

It was awesome.


And I got a natural 1 on my Remember To Save roll.

This is why I haven't posted anything yet. I've been a little discouraged by the death of that project, but have been working in a dual advancement warlock / bard Black Metal prestige class instead. It's almost done, will be posted within the hour for sure, probably somewhere around 15 minutes.

Anyways, I just wanted to mention one thing that I do remember that I liked quite a bit:
Drugs & Alcohol (thrash 2, folk 4). You have warped and twisted your metabolism through heavy use of mind-altering chemicals. You become immune to most fortitude saves, exactly like an object or undead. You may voluntarily choose to attempt a fortitude save you would normally be immune to, but you gain a +6 bonus to the check.

EDIT:: And it's up.

[ErrantX]

Agreed on the bump.

Moderators should really pin up this contest, it USED to be offical thing, but it seems they abandoned it...


Thinking about it-is any of them even AROUND? I don't remember seeing any of them post for a very long time now.
Silly thing is, we would not know if they are working unless sombody spams/flames, and nobody around here does these days. (a good thing. although quite strange.)

Anyways, Shockwave piper is going well, will be submitted sometime this week.

The reason why it is no longer pinned is because Roland very nicely asked me if I minded pulling the pin on it to reduce the number of stickies in the homebrew forum, and while I did not want to, I felt as this is a free service to us that we're all taking advantage of, I thought it would be wrong to say no.

-X

[Jogi]

Haha, I lol'd at black metal vocalist. :D looking forward to see it finished.

Oh, anyone, any thoughts on the Bow Minstrel?

[TSED]

Haha, I lol'd at black metal vocalist. :D looking forward to see it finished.

Oh, anyone, any thoughts on the Bow Minstrel?

It essentially is finished.

I ditched the Metalhead class and all the subgenre-y goodness, because I forgot to save. :smallfrown:

[TSED]

So, uh, any PEACHes for Black Metal Vocalist or Witchlamp?

[Lord_Gareth]

Work is going VERY slowly on the Sons of Discord; this is because I have no internet at home and some PUNK totally stole my flash drive.

[Jogi]

It essentially is finished.

I ditched the Metalhead class and all the subgenre-y goodness, because I forgot to save. :smallfrown:

Oh, sorry I hadn't seen it before. I read it now and I have some peaches:

- Headbang: I wouldn't use it, since being a BMV doesn't give you unnarmed proficiency, you'd get oportunity attacks coming. It also dazzles you, so what's the use in grappling an oponent since you'll be dazzled in a second?

- Spellcasting: I'd limit it to arcane, but that's just me - I don't see black metal together with divine.

- Corpse Paint: I don't really see why change the cold iron thing there.

- Loud Music: Maybe, just maybe, immunity might be too much. I dunno, might be better to have a bonus to save against deafness/damage by sound.

- Terrifying: Radius tripled? Sounds like a lot. But then again it must just not be.

- Inhuman Screech: Well, I dunno. Might have it's uses now and then but I don't see it as a 8th level ability.

[Salvonus]

I do have an idea for this one, but I often get bogged down whenever I attempt to homebrew things. :smallfrown: We'll see if I can produce a quality début entry. :smallwink:

[The Neoclassic]

Well, I entered the Picture is Worth a Thousand Words contest, and my entry is almost complete (just a bit of fluff left). If anyone wants to PEACH, the entry is here: Face of the Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6671801#post6671801).

Thanks! :smallsmile:

[TSED]

Oh, sorry I hadn't seen it before. I read it now and I have some peaches:

Thanks!


- Headbang: I wouldn't use it, since being a BMV doesn't give you unnarmed proficiency, you'd get oportunity attacks coming. It also dazzles you, so what's the use in grappling an oponent since you'll be dazzled in a second?

Good point. I'll specify that it doesn't provoke AoOs, I figured since they were flatfooted they wouldn't get one.


- Spellcasting: I'd limit it to arcane, but that's just me - I don't see black metal together with divine.
Non-good divine casting? Satanism and the occult are stereotypically tied to Black Metal (for some reason), so, yeah. I can see it pretty easily.


- Corpse Paint: I don't really see why change the cold iron thing there.

Only when adorned with corpse paint, though. It's mostly a mechanical bonus, really, to make you want to wear corpsepaint more often.


- Loud Music: Maybe, just maybe, immunity might be too much. I dunno, might be better to have a bonus to save against deafness/damage by sound.

Deafness isn't that big a deal, though. I am speaking anecdotally, but I've *never* encountered something that caused deafness. I remember one character I had lugged around some thunderstones in case he ever needed to inconvenience a spellcaster. He gave up and sold them around 8th level; never regretted it. Is deafness really that big a deal? If so, I'll change it.


- Terrifying: Radius tripled? Sounds like a lot. But then again it must just not be.

My reasoning here was that you were either insanely multiclassed (DN5, War3, Brd2, BMV 5 for total of 15) or playing something with a huge LA (dragons) and so the DCs were too low to matter against 'proper' challenges, so why not let them scare off tons of mooks?


- Inhuman Screech: Well, I dunno. Might have it's uses now and then but I don't see it as a 8th level ability.

Mind affecting abilities on undead? Fascinate the lich? Suggestions to the mindless daemonic horde? I only made it 50% because I was afraid of breaking it, actually.


Thanks for your feedback. I'll go and double the radius instead, and mention that you don't provoke AoOs for headbanging!

[Jogi]

Lol, someone please PEACH the Bow Minstrel :P Im kinda desperate for opinions :smallbiggrin:

[Jogi]

Bumping again, just keeping it alive.

[playswithfire]

Working on something; might be able to get a first draft up on Sunday; Bard/Crusader or Warblade Prc with working title of War Leader.

Will likely PEACH others to help get creativity going.

[Jogi]

Saddly, we've still only got four entries...just bumping again, trying to keep this alive.

[The Neoclassic]

Will the "Worth a Thousand Words" contest's voting thread be up soon?

[The Witch-King]

Will the "Worth a Thousand Words" contest's voting thread be up soon?

So--did this contest just die or what?

[The Neoclassic]

So--did this contest just die or what?

No, it shouldn't've, because it finished and there were plenty of entries... I just wonder what Djinn's been up to. I'd PM him but I don't want to seem pushy...

[Salvonus]

Djinn went away for a day or two... He should be back soon, I think.

[Violet Octopus]

Made a class. Figured bards need to seize the role of creature-identifier away from wizards. I was aiming for something like the Archivist's dark knowledge ability, but more interesting than static bonuses.

I know the 10th level ability needs to be more clearly explained, am working on it.

Any critique is welcome, as are any suggestions for better names for class abilities :smallsmile:

[Jogi]

Thanks!

Non-good divine casting? Satanism and the occult are stereotypically tied to Black Metal (for some reason), so, yeah. I can see it pretty easily.

Hmm, yeah I can see it too now.


Deafness isn't that big a deal, though. I am speaking anecdotally, but I've *never* encountered something that caused deafness. I remember one character I had lugged around some thunderstones in case he ever needed to inconvenience a spellcaster. He gave up and sold them around 8th level; never regretted it. Is deafness really that big a deal? If so, I'll change it.

Oh well, being deaf means 20% chance of arcane failiure in spells that involve speaking :P. It also might mean immune to some sonic damage.



My reasoning here was that you were either insanely multiclassed (DN5, War3, Brd2, BMV 5 for total of 15) or playing something with a huge LA (dragons) and so the DCs were too low to matter against 'proper' challenges, so why not let them scare off tons of mooks?

I see :D



Mind affecting abilities on undead? Fascinate the lich? Suggestions to the mindless daemonic horde? I only made it 50% because I was afraid of breaking it, actually.

Hmmm, I like idea of controling undead :D, but I'll try to suggest something better soon, no ideas right now.



Thanks for your feedback. I'll go and double the radius instead, and mention that you don't provoke AoOs for headbanging!

You're welcome :)

[Forevernade]

I have started another class Algorithmic Composer.
Needs lots of balancing, and unfinished at the moment, but comments and criticisms welcome!

[Siegel]

I would kill to see a Incarnum-Bard Class....

[FirebirdFlying]

Posted a class, the Wardancer; criticisms welcome and appreciated, as I'm a bit leery as to the balance of it.

[Forevernade]

Are we going to get any feed back, let alone votes in this Bard Contest?
Cmon people! this stuff is peach! :smalleek:

[Lord_Gareth]

Witch Doctor ahs updated! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119851)

[The Witch-King]

Was a Voting thread ever opened for the Picture is Worth A Thousand Words contest and if not, would any one mind if we just opened one up ourselves? I think we all put in work on those classes and deserve to see how things turn out.

[The Neoclassic]

Was a Voting thread ever opened for the Picture is Worth A Thousand Words contest and if not, would any one mind if we just opened one up ourselves? I think we all put in work on those classes and deserve to see how things turn out.

A voting thread for it was never opened. I also PM'd Djinn and he never got back to me. I know he's been around the boards, as I've seen him posting elsewhere, but apparently he's abandoned this without explanation. I don't know what the proper course of action would be here, but I do agree that a voting thread would be nice, even if we have to run it ourselves. :smallconfused:

[The Witch-King]

A voting thread for it was never opened. I also PM'd Djinn and he never got back to me. I know he's been around the boards, as I've seen him posting elsewhere, but apparently he's abandoned this without explanation. I don't know what the proper course of action would be here, but I do agree that a voting thread would be nice, even if we have to run it ourselves. :smallconfused:

I PM'd him as well and got no response. I have therefore opened a voting thread. I apologize to Djinn and to the forum but I invested a lot of time and work in my submission to the contest and I'd at least like to see the entries voted on.

The Voting Thread can be found at: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124614

We should determine how long we want to keep voting open and then I'll go back and amend the initial message.

[ErrantX]

Voting thread is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6907591)

Sorry about my recent uninvolvement in the contests, my whole work schedule has changed and thus my whole life has been rearranging itself and I'm trying to get back into the swing of it. Excuses are lame, I know, but just letting you know that while I have not PEACH'd anything, I have at least read over your entries and enjoyed them.

As for Djinn, I have no idea what happened with that. Thank you Witchking for putting up a voting thread and moderating that. Much appreciated, and I'm sure Djinn appreciates it too.

-X

[The Witch-King]

As for Djinn, I have no idea what happened with that. Thank you Witchking for putting up a voting thread and moderating that. Much appreciated, and I'm sure Djinn appreciates it too.

I'm just glad everyone seems to be okay with it.

I set the end of voting for midnight of Monday September 21st--if anyone has an objection, please let me know.

[ErrantX]

I have no interest in continuing a photo contest, so if Djinn doesn't come back around to play with it, or if he's done with it, if you want to Witchking (or anyone else for that matter) let me know and I'll keep posts moderated in this thread for it. If people like that sort of contest, we should keep it going.

-X

[The Witch-King]

I have no interest in continuing a photo contest, so if Djinn doesn't come back around to play with it, or if he's done with it, if you want to Witchking (or anyone else for that matter) let me know and I'll keep posts moderated in this thread for it. If people like that sort of contest, we should keep it going.

-X

I'd be willing to run it from now on if there's interest.

[The Neoclassic]

I'd be willing to run it from now on if there's interest.

I enjoyed it. I'd certainly participate again if it's continued.

[The Witch-King]

The first Worth A Thousands Words contest is over!

TSED's Witchlamp is the winner! Congratulations to TSED for such a fine class!

Worth A Thousand Words II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125849) is up!

[The Neoclassic]

Oooh, this new picture contest is going to be a hard one. I will certainly enter, but it'll probably take me a few days to figure out what I want to do. So many possibilities, and I feel like I shouldn't let myself just stick to my comfort zone...

[ErrantX]

Love that picture, I think it's gonna end up a background :D

Trying to figure out what to do for the next contest, stay tuned!

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...me? Again? But...but...wow. Thanks, everyone. I hadn't even really considered the class finished before I was unceremoniously pulled away from the playground. I guess the forum consensus is that it's fine as it is. :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost, I just want to say that I loved the creativity of your entry. Kudos to you!

And Witchking? Thanks for picking up my slack there, and taking the initiative to run a new one. You are truly a god among forum-goers.

To give a reason behind my unexplained disappearance: my life took a turn for the worse recently, and it involved things such as chronic depression, a lack of willpower to do any of the activities I used to love, a general forgetfulness (where the contest fell), and many visits to counseling and similar things. That said, I feel that I'm back on track, so expect to see me around more in days to come.

[Dante & Vergil]

Well Djinn, nothing cures depression like winning a contest.:smallwink:
In all seriousness though, hope things go well for you.
As for an idea for the next contest, maybe something a little bad*** (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118689) as a base?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

PairO'Dice Lost, I just want to say that I loved the creativity of your entry. Kudos to you!

So close and yet so far....

I really liked your entry as well, though with them being tied I didn't vote for it for obvious reasons. ;) Mine was mostly an off-the-cuff joke entry that turned out well, so I think you definitely deserve the win.

[Jogi]

Congrats Djinn =D, you're an awesome builder!
I hope everything ends up well for you ^^!

[ErrantX]

Well, very sorry to hear about your life troubles Djinn, and of course we all hope the best for you. But without further adieu, Welcome back to the boards! You were missed :smallbiggrin:

Now, on to the next contest... expect to see something here either today or tomorrow.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I really liked your entry as well, though with them being tied I didn't vote for it for obvious reasons. ;) Mine was mostly an off-the-cuff joke entry that turned out well, so I think you definitely deserve the win.

When I saw that they were tied, I felt the same way. As a huge Simon and Garfunkel fan, well, something about yours really appealed to me.

Hmmm...now two simultaneous contests to try my hand at. This will be...interesting.

*heads to the drawing board*

[Lord_Gareth]

Sorry that I haven't been able to participate; my computer time is somewhat limited, sadly. I do, however, have a suggestion for the next contest:

Mass Destruction

[The Witch-King]

And Witchking? Thanks for picking up my slack there, and taking the initiative to run a new one. You are truly a god among forum-goers.


I'm glad to hear you're doing better. Thank you for coming up with such a great idea for a contest. Please let me know if you wish to resume running it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm glad to hear you're doing better. Thank you for coming up with such a great idea for a contest. Please let me know if you wish to resume running it.

I'll let you handle this one, at least, as you seem to have a good start on it. I may pick up the later ones again, if I feel that I'll be reliable enough.

That said, that's a fairly inspiring image you've put up there. Which would you guys rather see?

The Daughter of Dawn: Half mortal being, half spirit of ether and light, the Daughters of Dawn dance and play in the darkest forests and brightest fields, as intangible as the light of morning itself.

The Flowering Briarqueen: Mistress of the forest's cloak of vines and thorns, the Flowering Briarqueen brings her domain in her wake as she travels the woods, hampering foes in the densest undergrowth the ancient forest has to offer.

The Wealding Daemon: Once a living being, now a part of the forest itself, the Wealding Daemon is an incarnation of the verdant majesty of the great woods, manifesting them in both their aged glory and their deep secrecy.

[Sir Shadow]

Flowering Briarqueen! That name reminds me of something...

[The Witch-King]

Something I've been meaning to ask--why is it that we see prestige class contests but not base class contests? Is there something about the base class that makes it less "contestable"? Perhaps that it tends to rely upon more pedestrian abilities than prestige classes or that it needs to be more rugged and less specific? Or is it just that prestige classes are more popular?

[Sir Shadow]

Something I've been meaning to ask--why is it that we see prestige class contests but not base class contests? Is there something about the base class that makes it less "contestable"? Perhaps that it tends to rely upon more pedestrian abilities than prestige classes or that it needs to be more rugged and less specific? Or is it just that prestige classes are more popular?PrC's are a lot easier to IMO, and I think DMs will be more apt to allow them.

However, I think the main factor is Flavour. Base classes have to be general, so that they can cover all "environments", but PrC's are supposed to be flavourful and add to the background, taste, and experience of the PC (or NPC). SO, in a contest like this, with themes and such, PrC's just fit much more than base classes would.

[Lord_Gareth]

Something I've been meaning to ask--why is it that we see prestige class contests but not base class contests? Is there something about the base class that makes it less "contestable"? Perhaps that it tends to rely upon more pedestrian abilities than prestige classes or that it needs to be more rugged and less specific? Or is it just that prestige classes are more popular?

There was a base class contest, actually. I won it ^_^ *Beams with pride* It's just a lot harder to do. If you were to run one, I'd probably submit my Witch Doctor (if I ever finish the goddamn Brews) though :D

[ErrantX]

New PrC contest is up, Hybrid Theory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126592), where you take two base classes and pick an ability to two from them both and synergize those abilities together to for new effects and abilities. Any questions, shoot em, I'll be happy to field em.

Get brewing! :smallbiggrin:
-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

New PrC contest is up, Hybrid Theory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126592), where you take two base classes and pick an ability to two from them both and synergize those abilities together to for new effects and abilities. Any questions, shoot em, I'll be happy to field em.

Get brewing! :smallbiggrin:
-X

Hmmm...this one is actually difficult for me. I tend to make prestige classes after ideas, not mechanical strengths...

Still, I like a challenge, and doubt it will stump me for long. :smallbiggrin:

[ErrantX]

Hmmm...this one is actually difficult for me. I tend to make prestige classes after ideas, not mechanical strengths...

Still, I like a challenge, and doubt it will stump me for long. :smallbiggrin:

Well, outside of the little ideas that any and all are welcome to use that I placed in the opening paragraphs of the contest page, I say get an idea and then see what classes fit it best, and work from there? Good luck Djinn!

-X

P.S. This is to everyone, I'd love to see someone work out an Ultimate Magus style class to hybrid Psion and Wilder together, making use of the Wild Surge of the Wilder and the Discipline focus of the Psion. Just a personal challenge to anyone who has a strong grasp on Psionics :D

[Stycotl]

The sky's the limit. You may draw from any source for base classes from the Wizards of the Coast line...

does this mean that we can't base it off of homebrew classes or homebrew fixes to canon classes? don't think so, but wanted to make sure...

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

You know, I think it's about time I entered another PrC competition.

[ErrantX]

does this mean that we can't base it off of homebrew classes or homebrew fixes to canon classes? don't think so, but wanted to make sure...

Keep it to the books, as it gives everyone a solid standing point. That way, everyone knows where everything is coming from.


You know, I think it's about time I entered another PrC competition.

I'd love to see what you can come up with Krimm. It has indeed been a while!

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You know, I think it's about time I entered another PrC competition.

...there goes my winning streak. :smallbiggrin:

I think I speak for more than myself when I say that I am usually in awe of your work, my good sir Blackleaf.

*wanders off to prepare something worthy of competing against the great and mighty Krimm Blackleaf*

[PairO'Dice Lost]

New PrC contest is up, Hybrid Theory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126592), where you take two base classes and pick an ability to two from them both and synergize those abilities together to for new effects and abilities. Any questions, shoot em, I'll be happy to field em.

Get brewing! :smallbiggrin:
-X

...dammit. I should have saved the Acolyte of Garfunkel for that one.


P.S. This is to everyone, I'd love to see someone work out an Ultimate Magus style class to hybrid Psion and Wilder together, making use of the Wild Surge of the Wilder and the Discipline focus of the Psion. Just a personal challenge to anyone who has a strong grasp on Psionics :D

Strong grasp on psionics, check. Expertise with theurge-type PrCs, check. Challenge accepted, my good man. My homework load should be lightening up by this weekend, so expect something along those lines then.

[ErrantX]

...dammit. I should have saved the Acolyte of Garfunkel for that one.



Strong grasp on psionics, check. Expertise with theurge-type PrCs, check. Challenge accepted, my good man. My homework load should be lightening up by this weekend, so expect something along those lines then.

Hehe, sorry, I am a stinker aren't I? :smallwink:

If you're willing to take on my personal challenge, then by all means, I'm a fan of yours works and I look forward to seeing the results. Good show!

-X

[Lvl45DM!]

I have an idea...needs work but
The Monastic Monk!!!
a divine powered monk!
This way all monks CAN be Jet Li...
but hmm it definitly needs work

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Time for a "what would you rather see" survey!

Minstrel of the Fourfold Cycle: A Bard/Druid PrC channeling the natural powers of the changing year into potent songs infused with the magic of the fey. Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter spill forth from their voices, changing their powers and abilities as the seasons change around them.

Shaman of the Given World: A Binder/Druid PrC offering vestiges not just a vicarious experience at life but a chance to partake of the world once more, forming a bond far deeper than that of a mere bargain; that of true trust and friendship, something most vestiges have long forgotten. In exchange the Shaman receives a power derived from a fusion of the natural and the unnatural, forged into a single cohesive whole.

Ninja of the Shrouded Dawn: A Ninja/Swordsage PrC combining the Desert Wind school of martial maneuvers with the Ninja's natural stealth and mobility to strike quickly and devastate opponents with the dazzling fury of raw sunlight. Perhaps a bit to similar to the Shadow Sun Ninja, although the techniques and abilities are different.

[Lord_Gareth]

I vote Minstrel of the Fourfould Cycle; Bards need MOAR THEURGE!

[Violet Octopus]

I've started on a barbarian/wilder (or psychic warrior, egoist or possibly ardent) class, similar to the rage mage, but hopefully interesting and with clearly written rules. Among other things, it spends PP to augment its rages, hopefully in a way that won't resemble the Pathfinder barbarian.

I'd love to see someone do something with the dragonfire adept, as opposed to the warlock. Maybe a psion/dragonfire adept who emulates gem dragons. Or something combining incarnum with Tome of Battle.


Time for a "what would you rather see" survey!
The Minstrel sounds mechanically interesting - abilities that change depending on the season sound cool. Although, it makes me wonder what would happen when they travel to a place with wet and dry seasons :smalltongue:
Yet I'd also like to see the flavor for the Shaman, and it could have interesting abilities too.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Minstrel sounds mechanically interesting - abilities that change depending on the season sound cool. Although, it makes me wonder what would happen when they travel to a place with wet and dry seasons :smalltongue:
Yet I'd also like to see the flavor for the Shaman, and it could have interesting abilities too.

A bit more about them then. :smallbiggrin:

The Minstrel gains a spontaneous casting list and new Bardic Music abilities based on the current season, but may also expend Bardic Music attempts to temporarily alter the season around himself. The seasons are represented as such: Spring (Healing and Life), Summer (Heat and Light), Autumn (Despair and Decay) and Winter (Cold and Death). So, for example, a high level Minstrel walking around in winter can wail of the banshee his foes into oblivion, or conjure up the blizzards of winter with his song. Yet he can also sing Summer into being, and suddenly rise against his opponents in the blinding glory of the summer solstice, his voice bringing the scourging fires of the sun to bear upon his enemies.

The Shaman wishes to give vestiges a chance to experience life once more, having bonded deeply with his otherworldly comrades. He can draw them into physical forms (having them occupy phantom [or dead...unsure yet] forms of animals), and he can fuel them with his natural magic, sacrificing Vestige abilities to empower his spells and spells to empower his Vestige abilities. He can even allow them to enter his animal companion, sacrificing one of his closest friends as a gift to those forever denied the touch of reality.

[ErrantX]

While I love anything to do with Binders that does not actually suck, I'm thinking I'm gonna have to go for more Bard love, especially Druid/Bard love. While it seems more mechanically complicated, it also seems more flavorfilled and fun. I say go with the Minstrel.

As an aside, I'm also 110% behind anyone who wants to make multiclass feats to go with their classes, i.e. something like Ascetic, Daring, and Devoted feat lines from the various Completes. New feats like Ascetic Bargainer (monk + binder), or Wrathful Performer (Barbarian + Bard), etc etc

-X

[Sir Shadow]

<_< I vote for the Shaman... anything that includes Druid in it is going to be a hit withe me, and I'd love to see the Binder get some good love.

[Violet Octopus]

In that case I have to go for the Minstrel of the Fourfold Cycle, though it was close.

[gdiddy]

I am laying claim on the Vengeful Striker, a Monk Barbarian mash up.

The Alignment switchover will be challenging, but awesome to make a mechanic for.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...the Ministrel isn't coming to me yet, meaning that it will probably be poorly mashed together if I try to force it. The idea is sound, but I'm just not getting the required brain wave. Same, oddly enough, for the Shaman...I can do it, but not as a true hybrid class.

Additionally, for some reason I prefer for my Prestiges Classes to have a truly unique feel to them, and I didn't think that the Ministrel was getting that vibe...it seemed more of a gimmick than a character defining class, which goes counter to my ideas of PrC theory.

Yet at the same time I am feeling exceptionally Bard-y (or Artificer-y for one of them), so can I get some opinions on these? I'm keeping the mechanics out of the loop so that I don't inadvernantly rig the contest by letting people choose the mechanics they like best ahead of time...


Eternal Harmonist: A Bard/Truenamer who eternally sings in harmony with the true song of the universe, the language of creation flowing from parted lips as easily as normal speech...

Harmonious Mastermaker: An Artificer/Bard who weaves song into creation, forging machines that hum and resonate with the human voice, growing stronger when wrapped in a tuneful melody...

Soul Tinker: Bard/Soul Melder who pours fragments of living spirits into inanimate creations, granting the devices a living spark and creating an amalgamation never before seen in the mortal world...

Bloodrage Diva: A Barbarian/Bard whose frantic melodies carry the song of battle, the screams of the wounded, and the last gasps of dying souls...

Twilight Lyrist: A Bard/Shadowcaster whose voice beckons darkness and slumber as they slowing conjure forth the coming of night into the world...

Siren of Dreams: A Bard/Psionic Manifester who sings of their victim's dreams and ambitions, trapping them in a world of their own imagining and weakening their minds against the perils of the real world...

Choirmaster of the Voiceless: A Bard/Necromancer whose voice is carried by thousands of broken throats, sung by corpses animated not through dark magic, but by the music that runs through the soul...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Eternal Harmonist: A Bard/Truenamer who eternally sings in harmony with the true song of the universe, the language of creation flowing from parted lips as easily as normal speech...

I think this would work the best, since (A) the bard and truenamer fit very nicely together fluff-wise and (B) a truenamer/anything really needs some extra oomph.

[ErrantX]

Definitely Twilight Lyrist, I love it :D

-X

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I just had an interesting idea for a PrC, and before I develop it further I'd better check something: Is it possible to do a PrC for more than two classes, specifically psion/wilder/soulknife?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I just had an interesting idea for a PrC, and before I develop it further I'd better check something: Is it possible to do a PrC for more than two classes, specifically psion/wilder/soulknife?

Go for it, PairO'Dice. I was debating a three-class hybrid myself, but...well...I had enough ideas with just the Bard.

Psion/wilder/soulknife though...I'm interested in where you'd go with that, as Wilder and Psion are, in my mind, even more of an overlap than Sorcerer/Wizard, since they don't even have that different casting mechanic. So I'm immensely curious, and want to see the outcome.

I say take the idea and run.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I say take the idea and run.

Alrighty then, I'll do that. Let's just hope I don't trip somewhere along the way. :smallwink:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alrighty then, I'll do that. Let's just hope I don't trip somewhere along the way. :smallwink:

I've seen your work, Dice. You rarely trip. And if you do...well...more votes for me! :smalltongue:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I've seen your work, Dice. You rarely trip. And if you do...well...more votes for me! :smalltongue:

:smallamused: You managed to come out ahead by a hair in the last one, Djinn, I've got too many ranks in Balance to let you pull that again.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

:smallamused: You managed to come out ahead by a hair in the last one, Djinn, I've got too many ranks in Balance to let you pull that again.

*points*

*begins singing*

Unoptimized! Unoptimized! PairO'Dice is unoptimized!

Ranks in balance? Really? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

...ahem.

Back on topic, any other thoughts on which I should do? I have two opinions currently, and if nobody else has a say, I'll start to get to work...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

*points*

*begins singing*

Unoptimized! Unoptimized! PairO'Dice is unoptimized!

Ranks in balance? Really? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

Hey, with my ridiculously prodigious intellect I've got skill points to spare after maxing out all the skills I need; I had to put those ranks somewhere.


...ahem.

Back on topic, any other thoughts on which I should do? I have two opinions currently, and if nobody else has a say, I'll start to get to work...

I still think you should go with the Eternal Harmonist. While the Twilight Lyrist does sound interesting, that particular combination is a bit...derivative after the last contest, don't you think?

[ErrantX]

I just had an interesting idea for a PrC, and before I develop it further I'd better check something: Is it possible to do a PrC for more than two classes, specifically psion/wilder/soulknife?

Sounds busy, but I'm down. I'd see it with a d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, entry of 3 Psion, 1 wilder, 1 or 2 soulknife at that point.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sounds busy, but I'm down. I'd see it with a d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, entry of 3 Psion, 1 Wilder, 1 or 2 Soulknife at that point.

-X

Afraid I must disagree, my good ErrantX. As far as combination classes go, both Wilder and Soulknife bring more abilities to bear by 3rd level, meaning he'd have more to work with. Psion 2-3 gives nothing, but both Wilder 2-3 and Soulknife 2-3 grant new abilities or improvements on existing abilities. Also, if there's any Soulknife mixed in, more HP and a slightly better BaB would be necessary, which more levels of Wilder or Soulknife would provide.

[ErrantX]

Afraid I must disagree, my good ErrantX. As far as combination classes go, both Wilder and Soulknife bring more abilities to bear by 3rd level, meaning he'd have more to work with. Psion 2-3 gives nothing, but both Wilder 2-3 and Soulknife 2-3 grant new abilities or improvements on existing abilities. Also, if there's any Soulknife mixed in, more HP and a slightly better BaB would be necessary, which more levels of Wilder or Soulknife would provide.

I disagree with you here, because a Psion by level 3 brings more Powers to bear than one or two class features, as well as a bonus psionic feat. I say 3 psion for 2nd level powers, 1 wilder for the other side of it, and 2 soulknife for throw mind blade (as a possible power delivery mechanism).

-X

[Sir Shadow]

*points*

*begins singing*

Unoptimized! Unoptimized! PairO'Dice is unoptimized!

Ranks in balance? Really? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:<_<
>_>
you better never play in one of my games... my players have fallen to their untimely demise more than a few times. Plus, balance is necessary for fighting while running on rooftops... which happens more than you'd think.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I disagree with you here, because a Psion by level 3 brings more Powers to bear than one or two class features, as well as a bonus psionic feat. I say 3 psion for 2nd level powers, 1 wilder for the other side of it, and 2 soulknife for throw mind blade (as a possible power delivery mechanism).

-X

I was actually considering requiring discipline focus, wild surge, and 2nd-level powers, so you could either do psion 3/wilder 1 for faster entry or psion 1/wilder 4 for improved class features.

[Violet Octopus]

Most of the entries are shaping up to be psionic, which is an interesting quirk.

I like the Soul Tinker, presuming you meant Artificer, not Bard. I liked the idea of the Dirgesinger, so i'd also like to see where Choirmaster of the Voiceless takes things.

My Psychic Tempest is going well, I think. Currently it advances Wild Surge and Surging Euphoria a little slower than wilder, but I'm considering accelerating Surging Euphoria. Is this a bad idea?

On a more random note, a binder/incarnum class that invests essentia into their vestige binds would be interesting to see.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

On a more random note, a binder/incarnum class that invests essentia into their vestige binds would be interesting to see.

...dammit. Now I'm torn; I do so love binding and incarnum, but I have a cool psionic idea. Decisions, decisions....

[ErrantX]

Bump for great justice.

-X

[Xallace]

I like the Soul Tinker, presuming you meant Artificer, not Bard. .

I thought that too, and if no-one else does it, I want to do it so badly.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I thought that too, and if no-one else does it, I want to do it so badly.

I think I might be picking that one up, actually. My Madspark Eccentric has inspired me to try some unusual hybrids, and Artificer/Incarnate is a pretty obscure one.

'Course, using a less well known class could hurt my chances at winning this thing, but the fun of figuring out how to do it is more important, in my mind. :smallbiggrin:

[Xallace]

I think I might be picking that one up, actually. My Madspark Eccentric has inspired me to try some unusual hybrids, and Artificer/Incarnate is a pretty obscure one.


Curses! Ah well, I guess it just means you'll get my support when the vote rolls around. So long as they can apply Infusions to soulmelds, that is.

Well... I want to do something, I haven't been in any of these contests since "Draw, Partner!" Whatever number that was. Someone give me two random base classes, I'll see what I can do.

[Emong]

Curses! Ah well, I guess it just means you'll get my support when the vote rolls around. So long as they can apply Infusions to soulmelds, that is.

Well... I want to do something, I haven't been in any of these contests since "Draw, Partner!" Whatever number that was. Someone give me two random base classes, I'll see what I can do.

Shadowcaster and Binder. You must do it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Shadowcaster and Binder. You must do it.

Eh...that almost makes sense.

Truenamer and Barbarian. I dare you to manage that! :smallbiggrin:

[Xallace]

Truenamer and Barbarian. I dare you to manage that! :smallbiggrin:


An illiterate Truenamer... I... I think I can do that. Just kinda... guesses at how Truenaming works? Can only Truespeak a general effect, specifics are very random... Truerage? Ragenaming? "In his vehement fury, Krog unleashed a volley of curses unlike the world had ever heard before; or indeed, would ever hear again."

Challenge accepted. :smallbiggrin:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Challenge accepted. :smallbiggrin:

Awesome. Him being illiterate would be difficult though...you'd need a special requirement or feat to somehow allow a Truenamer to use his class abilities without being able to read.

I wish you luck, good sir. And you receive a bunch of points in my book for taking that challenge, especially if it turns out well. :smallbiggrin:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Awesome. Him being illiterate would be difficult though...you'd need a special requirement or feat to somehow allow a Truenamer to use his class abilities without being able to read.

Does a truenamer actually have to be able to read, though? He could always learn his truenaming from some other source--Complete Arcane mentions a variant spellbook composed of various animal totem thingies, so a "truerager" could always use bunches of beads or tiny skulls or something else to represent phonemes, learning the right pronunciation and cadence for utterances without actually learning truename "words."

[The Witch-King]

Just a reminder to everyone: The Worth A Thousands Words II Contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125849) is open to entries through October 9th!

[Mulletmanalive]

I think i might enter this one. My current working idea is Fivefold Bushi a Hybrid of Samurai/Duskblade with as strong a flavour as i can make it.

Though i'll be making a point of accounting for the fact that my group has adopted Weapon Styles, of which Two Swords as One is only one.

Question is, do i adopt the traditional Taiji format of Wood-Fire-Earth-Water-Metal or do i use the Five Rings format of Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Void?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I think i might enter this one. My current working idea is Fivefold Bushi a Hybrid of Samurai/Duskblade with as strong a flavour as i can make it.

Though i'll be making a point of accounting for the fact that my group has adopted Weapon Styles, of which Two Swords as One is only one.

Question is, do i adopt the traditional Taiji format of Wood-Fire-Earth-Water-Metal or do i use the Five Rings format of Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Void?

Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Void probably allows for a better flavor, in my mind. I feel the concept of Void adds more than the idea of Metal.

[Mulletmanalive]

Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Void probably allows for a better flavor, in my mind. I feel the concept of Void adds more than the idea of Metal.

I never really know what to do with void; its not really explained well in the book of 5 rings. Most of the time it's treated as either elemental glue or disintegration, but far as i was able to read, that's not really what it it either...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I never really know what to do with void; its not really explained well in the book of 5 rings. Most of the time it's treated as either elemental glue or disintegration, but far as i was able to read, that's not really what it it either...


Kū or sora, most often translated as "Void", but also meaning "sky" or "Heaven", represents those things beyond our everyday experience, particularly those things composed of pure energy. Bodily, kū represents spirit, thought, and creative energy. It represents our ability to think and to communicate, as well as our creativity. It can also be associated with power, creativity, spontaneity, and inventiveness.

Kū is of particular importance as the highest of the elements. In martial arts, particularly in fictional tales where the fighting discipline is blended with magic or the occult, one often invokes the power of the Void to connect to the quintessential creative energy of the world. A warrior properly attuned to the Void can sense his surrounding and act without thinking, and without using his physical senses.

That help at all?

[Xallace]

In martial arts, particularly in fictional tales where the fighting discipline is blended with magic or the occult, one often invokes the power of the Void to connect to the quintessential creative energy of the world.

Which fits nicely considering the duskblade aspect. Perhaps burning spell-slots to increase martial prowess?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

On an unrelated note, I just wanted to thank you all for turning this thread into what I've always dreamed it would be. I've never before seen so much group effort going towards other people's ideas, and I must say that I love it. I also think it'll make the end results of the contest that much more spectacular.

[Xallace]

On an unrelated note, I just wanted to thank you all for turning this thread into what I've always dreamed it would be. I've never before seen so much group effort going towards other people's ideas, and I must say that I love it. I also think it'll make the end results of the contest that much more spectacular.

High-Fives all around! :smallbiggrin:


Does a truenamer actually have to be able to read, though? He could always learn his truenaming from some other source--Complete Arcane mentions a variant spellbook composed of various animal totem thingies, so a "truerager" could always use bunches of beads or tiny skulls or something else to represent phonemes, learning the right pronunciation and cadence for utterances without actually learning truename "words."

I was actually thinking of a kind of "Verbal Kanji" method, where the barbarian-truenamers are taught that certain syllables match up with certain concepts- like "tree" or "movement" or "goblin." The truenamer simply combines syllables together to try and create an effect. I'm thinking one of the major class features keying off of this would be that even if you fail a Truespeak check to intone the proper utterance, something still happens, as you are still uttering a word of power.


Also, Mulletmanalive. If the "burning spell slots = martial boost" idea doesn't fit your tastes, you could go a kind-of "martial diviner" route. The Void Disciple PrC has a very "true sight" bent, you could take some inspiration from there.

[ErrantX]

On an unrelated note, I just wanted to thank you all for turning this thread into what I've always dreamed it would be. I've never before seen so much group effort going towards other people's ideas, and I must say that I love it. I also think it'll make the end results of the contest that much more spectacular.

2nded. That's why I love running these contests. Even though I really can't enter them as I'm running them, I love reading the flow and helping when I can when everyone gets together and helps in creating something awesome.

-X

[Mulletmanalive]

That help at all?

Thanks Djinn, but I'd already read the Book of 5 Rings and come up short.

Part of that is translation and part is probably Miamoto being pointedly obtuse.

Far as I could gather, Void is actually a variation on the Yin, the inactive counter to a real thing [as Laozi explained in the Daodeching, it's the part of the pot that isn't made of clay that makes it useful].

From that, i can't really come up with an effect that i like...unless it was something about removing the void from the target...

No, causing your opponents lungs to turn into solid blocks is silly. Or is it?

@Xallace:
Your verbal Kanji thing is interesting, partly because that's actually a key evolutionary point of all Sino-form languages.

Damn, now i have this mental image of a barbarian daubing a crude compound symbol on his chest using radicals and then screaming out the root concept to gain the powers of what he's described...

I know that's probably not really what the truenamer does but i think its awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[DeskChairLamp]

Hmm... this begins to interest me. Seeing as idea discussions are well underway, thought I'd get some pre-advising on the ideas bouncing around my head.

Seraph A mix of bard/favored soul, the Seraph's songs strengthen the righteous and weaken the wicked, but above all, they aim to bring peace to the mortal realms.

Shaman of Tiamat A dragon shaman/cleric who, through the worship of the Dragon Queen, attains the might of all chromatic dragons, rather than a single one.

Circle Fencer Swashbuckler/warblade. A warrior who relies as much on his keen intellect as his powerful sword arm. The Circle Fencer's scrutinizing eye allows him to counter his foes' techniques with ease and, at higher levels, copy them for his own use.

[Violet Octopus]

Seraph could be good. I quite like divine bards, and you could come up with interesting fluff on their place within church hierarchy.

The Circle Fencer sounds great fun from a mechanics point of view, imitating maneuvers or maybe even certain class features.

Shaman of Tiamat, I don't know. I was hoping someone would do something interesting with the dragon shaman, injecting some badly needed flavour and general awesome. You might do an excellent job, but on the face of it, cleric doesn't feel right. Maybe because cleric spellcasting would likely overshadow the dragon shaman.

I don't actually know what I would love to see combined with dragon shaman though. Psychic warrior, totemist, perhaps warlock?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

So I'm debating between two possibilities. Both of them have a little work done on them, and surely I'll be getting both done at some point. The issue now is I don't know which one I'd prefer to finish first/enter into this competition. The choices are as follows;

The Jade Disciple
A worshiper of the Jade Uron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123491) that combines both it's skill in artifice with it's divine magic to not only become a better craftsman, but to forge Jade-flecked metal into their very bodies to become more like the Uron themself(meaning humanoids become warforgedy, and warforged become more golemy).

The Sea Witch(or warlock)
Unholy practitioners of black arts in association with the twisted things that lurk beyond the waves. Creatures such as Cthulhu and other Elder Gods that lurked in the sea that was once the material plane slough power and these occultists pick it up. They use the abilities of a spellcasting class(arcane or divine) and with warlock invocations to create effects similar to folkloric black magic effects and lots of lovecraftian water magic mixed in.

I want to see what everyone would prefer before I move onto the completion step.

[Xallace]

Shaman of Tiamat A dragon shaman/cleric who, through the worship of the Dragon Queen, attains the might of all chromatic dragons, rather than a single one.

I would like to see this one, as I am also hoping for some Dragon Shaman awesomeness.

As an aside, I'd also like to see Dragon Shaman / Totemist (with Breath Weapon as Soulmeld!), Dragon Shaman / Dragon Adept (SO. MUCH. DRAGON.), and now that I think about it, Warlock / Incarnate.


The Sea Witch

Yesssss. Although there is already a class by that name, I'm sure we can overlook that. What caster class were you thinking?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Yesssss. Although there is already a class by that name, I'm sure we can overlook that. What caster class were you thinking?

Oh hm. Maybe I can change the name slightly. But as for casting class I was thinking it wouldn't focus on a single casting class, so a wizard could qualify as well for it as a favored soul or a beguiler.

[ErrantX]

@DeskChairLamp:

I definitely vote Seraph, that gave me good thoughts.

@Krimm_Blackleaf:

I'm gonna have to say your Sea Witch idea, if only because anytime you pull something Lovecraftian out of your brainmeats I'm always pleased by it.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Krimm, toss us the Sea Witch, por favor. You + Lovecraft is definitely a winning combination.

[Violet Octopus]

Fourthed for the Sea Witch.

The Psychic Tempest is up, complete with cheesy class member quote. Now to step away from it for a couple of days to figure out if its class features are as cheesy.

Also, writing spells/powers/maneuvers is hard. My already-substantial respect for people who can brew whole disciplines has doubled.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Wow. You've set the bar pretty high. At first glance (I haven't torn it apart yet) it looks like a solid, interesting, and well built class.

That said, I'll admit I was disappointed by the lack of incentive to Wild Surge during a Rage...those two abilities seem so suited to each other that I was surprised not to see anything of the sort in the class abilities.

[Lord_Gareth]

I will give good cash money to anyone who comes up with a Harrowed PrC and/or some feats to go with it.

No I won't, but you will get an internet.

[Dante & Vergil]

Choirmaster of the Voiceless: A Bard/Necromancer whose voice is carried by thousands of broken throats, sung by corpses animated not through dark magic, but by the music that runs through the soul...

Must see... must see... MUST SEE!!! There aren't enough Necromancers here to begin with!!
I think with people with multiple ideas floating around, pick one for the contest, then we should compile every theurge class here into one awsome thread!!!:smallamused:

[Violet Octopus]

Wow. You've set the bar pretty high. At first glance (I haven't torn it apart yet) it looks like a solid, interesting, and well built class.

That said, I'll admit I was disappointed by the lack of incentive to Wild Surge during a Rage...those two abilities seem so suited to each other that I was surprised not to see anything of the sort in the class abilities.
Thankyou! :smallredface: I look forward to said tearing apart.

Regarding incentivising wild surge, there were 2 things I was considering: increasing the cap on wild surge during a rage, and giving a faster surging euphoria progression (which doesn't relate to rage, but encourages interleaving spells and combat). I might implement one or both when I reevaluate balance. Nothing more inventive came to me, alas.

Also, I know nothing about githyanki and githzerai beyond the EPH. If I've mangled them in the flavour section, I'm happy to adjust to make it fit better with canon.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Thankyou! :smallredface: I look forward to said tearing apart.

Good. I may be brutal. But remember...it's all in furtherance of building a better class. :smallbiggrin:


Regarding incentivising wild surge, there were 2 things I was considering: increasing the cap on wild surge during a rage, and giving a faster surging euphoria progression (which doesn't relate to rage, but encourages interleaving spells and combat). I might implement one or both when I reevaluate balance. Nothing more inventive came to me, alas.

Hmm...let's see. Just some random thoughts...

A chance to negate Enervation through a successful Fortitude or Will save.
The ability to delay Enervation until the end of the rage, at the cost of being dazed for 1d4 rounds rather than a mere 1 round.
When raging, the bonus granted from Surging Euphoria is equal to the manifester level increase of your Wild Surge rather than a flat +1.
As a swift action when Wild Surging, you may prematurely end your rage to gain an additional +X bonus to your manifester level, where X is equal to the number of rounds you had remaining in your rage (so if you normally have a +3 Wild Surge and can rage for 8 rounds, but end your rage by Surging at the end of round 3, you lose the effects of your rage but empower your Wild Surge to +8). You are fatigued at the end of your rage as normal.

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually:

Djinn In Tonic, I formally challenge you to create a PrC that combines Harrowed with another class.

Done.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Actually:

Djinn In Tonic, I formally challenge you to create a PrC that combines Harrowed with another class.

Done.

Not for this contest, my friend. Not for this one. I like to use official classes for this contest.

That said, I do have one half-finished on my desktop that I'll dust off shortly. The Ragechained Berserker, if you want to know.

[ErrantX]

Must see... must see... MUST SEE!!! There aren't enough Necromancers here to begin with!!
I think with people with multiple ideas floating around, pick one for the contest, then we should compile every theurge class here into one awsome thread!!!:smallamused:

I may need to do Hybrid Theory Part 2 :P

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I may need to do Hybrid Theory Part 2 :P

-X

Or...*ahem*...allow more entries per person (just kidding).

Not that I'd abuse that, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Salvonus]

i haz an idea...

Actually, it's one that I thought of and started work on for the previous contest, but didn't have the time to finish. I have even less time right now, so it'll probably never see the time of day. :smalleek:

...but, I dunno, the PrC contest seems quite inventive and cooperative this time around. I might see if I can find what I'd written up and see if I could "workshop" it a bit with you guys. :smallsmile:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

[SIZE="1"]...but, I dunno, the PrC contest seems quite inventive and cooperative this time around. I might see if I can find what I'd written up and see if I could "workshop" it a bit with you guys. :smallsmile:

Happy to help "workshop" up anything you care to give us, Sally. I rarely have anything more important to do (sad, but true). :smallbiggrin:

[ErrantX]

@Violet Octopus:

Firstly, let me say that I really dig how you put this together. Integrating rage with the wilder's wild surge for rage augments is really quite inventive and the augments are very fun. For the first time ever, I had the urge to play a wilder. Thank you for that.

The class features are not overwhelming and overall make sense for the class, with the mind fortifying the body and emotions fortifying the mind. I will say, however, that I'd change it from Overchannel and simply to Wild Surge. Psions with overchannel are too handy and easy to have, as well as the anarchic initiate existing... but you do give lots of boosts to those who do not stoop to those tricks. So kudos there. I think that it's just a personal preference for me, others may (and probably will) disagree with me.

The augment list is full and flavorful and with the inclusion of what discipline they come from, you provide a very professional sense of completeness for the class.

All in all, well done.
-X

[Salvonus]

Well, here's the idea...

Demiurgic Worldweaver
A Psion/Bard that reshapes the planes through epic sagas imbued with the metacreative energies of the storyteller.

Predicted Entry: Bard 2/Psion 8 (It's a PrC for levels 10 to 20.)
Entry Requirements: Perform (Oratory) 13, Craft (Composition) 13, Scribe Psionic Tattoo, Knowledge (The Planes) 9, Bardic Music, 1st Level Bardic casting, 4th level Psionic manifesting, and a special requirement of (roughly phrased) "Must somehow alter the mythology of a world/religion in a manner of their own (suitably epic) manner."
Thus-Far Planned Abilities:
Saga of the Exemplar - The Worldweaver fashions an epic tale and inscribes it upon the flesh of their comrade (like a Psionic Tattoo). I see this as the "signature" ability of the PrC, as it would scale over time. It would last 24 hours, but can only be used on a single ally at any one time. I'm not sure what the mechanical benefits will be, but I think it will eventually grow to be quite massive - although probably directed more at Fighter/Skillmonkey enhancement, rather than helping casters/manifesters.
Bastion of the Hyperconscious - "Song" that offers a selective Mind Blank effect to a single ally. (Rising to two allies at some point.) It is "selective", in that beneficial mind-affecting spells may, at the ally's option, "pass through" it. This has a nice psionic theme, and also gets around one of my biggest beefs with the interaction between Bards and Mind Blank - the fact that it renders morale bonuses useless.
Random Other Ideas - "Weapon of Legend" (Summons some sort of Soulknife-esque blade to be used by an ally.); More "Tattoo-based" abilities; Something that emulates the Lyre of Building
A Legend Never Dies - Gained at 10th level, this renders the Worldweaver completely ageless and plants a constant "seed of resurrection" - probably something like the Astral Seed power. It's ECL 20, so I figure I can go a bit overboard with that.
Worldweaving - Also gained at 10th level, the Worldweaver gains their own personal demiplane. This would function along the lines of a much better version of the Genesis power - while you couldn't manipulate planar traits (especially not time), the size would be a lot bigger. Furthermore, you would be able to weave entire civilisations, localised deity-esque powers, mythology, flora, fauna, and so on. The world would probably be "E6" in nature - nothing over, say, CR 8 could be created, so as to limit abuse somewhat. You gain no mechanical benefit for establishing yourself as the deity of your newly-created people, but I suppose it could be a roleplaying gateway to a quest for divine ranks.

I could see the afterlife of the people in your Worldweave as actually being part of your subconscious. In fact, when I think about it, the entire demiplane might exist solely within your mind - people can travel to it if you let them (including you), but it technically exists within you. As a side effect, I suppose you're nearly invulnerable within your own Worldweave - you'd have Dreamscape-like control over it.

As you might have guessed, the idea basically sprung from the Worldweaving capstone... I know it seems super-powerful, but this is ECL 20 that we're talking about. :smallwink:

(By the way, maybe the Worth A Thousand Words contest should be extended...?)

[T.G. Oskar]

Dang, this is the first time I feel tempted to enter a competition. My proposal might bend the rules a bit, since it's legally a "double" hybrid class but it can expand to be a potential "triple" hybrid class.

The proposal name is Initiate of the Diamond Blade. The purpose of the design is to create a prestige class that allows to blend Martial Adept maneuvers with Meldshapers' soulmelds. The basis lies upon forming a literal incarnum weapon from where you can execute maneuvers, and enhance your maneuver DC and damage based on essentia.

And yes, I've noticed the work by Sinfire Titan: note it's a class and not a theurge-inspired PrC, not to mention it is meant to work on a different perspective.

However, there's a slight thing I noticed while at it. When trying to look for a basis to the "Incarnum Blade", the Mind Blade ability of the Soulknife came to mind. So, while you don't have to use a Soulknife to enter this class, it means you can enhance your Mind Blade if you decide to dabble on that class. So technically, you can enter with a initiator class and a meldshaper class alone, but you can get some extra benefit if you enter as a Soulknife.

There's also an idea to make a Monk/Artificer mingling; something that really captures the flavor of the two.

[Salvonus]

Hmm... Have you seen Krimm's take (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55977) on the Meldshaper-Initiator blend? Your idea seems vaguely similar.

[Mulletmanalive]

I didn't realise that we were calling dibs...

Surely, as long as no plagerism occurs, its all fair?

To my mind, calling dibs on combinations will skew the competition as more attention will always go to the more unusual combinations.

I say, let the man play, and he and Krimm post here to say that they're ready and upload the pair of them at the same time.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm... Have you seen Krimm's take (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55977) on the Meldshaper-Initiator blend? Your idea seems vaguely similar.

Hmmm, hadn't seen that. I was pointed to Sinfire's class build, but not to this one. So...does that mean I can't use this idea, or is it legal for me to attempt it? Or at least, to attempt it but at the same time attempting to be different from Krimm's earlier work?

[Salvonus]

Hmmm, hadn't seen that. I was pointed to Sinfire's class build, but not to this one. So...does that mean I can't use this idea, or is it legal for me to attempt it? Or at least, to attempt it but at the same time attempting to be different from Krimm's earlier work?

Oh, I wasn't saying that you shouldn't attempt your idea. :smalltongue: I was just mentioning that there was something similar that you might want to take a look at for purposes of ideas/differentiation/tasty cake.

[Violet Octopus]

Well, here's the idea...
Demiurgic Worldweaver
Two contests where I've learned awesome vocabulary. This sounds like a great class, there aren't enough PrCs for high-level play, and this certainly captures a sense of grandeur that archmages don't.
A Legend Never Dies sounds fine, dread necromancers become liches then and it's hardly OP.
Two questions/quibbles:
The tattoo abilities that enhance one ally to be a legendary companion are cool and suitably mythic, but how would the rest of the party feel?
The worldweaving capstone is awesome, but besides the lyre of building idea and the name of the class, there's nothing building up to it thematically.
Maybe the class could inscribe tattoos onto astral constructs, imbuing them with personality and finer detail. Generally your creations become less rough, more refined as you advance in level, until they're worthy enough to populate a world.

@ErrantX
The trouble with class requirements is that I didn't want to restrict psychic warriors from entering. Generally I don't like hybrid PrCs that are mechanically restricted to just one class combo (unless it's like binding/bardic music or something) unless there's already a generic option and the new class has specific flavour. I'd prefer psions and ardents (except egoists, maybe) not to enter, and went for the simple option of Autohypnosis over more complicated but precise criteria.
I'm glad you like it enough to be tempted to play a wilder, that was what I was hoping to achieve. Though I think I need to add Display entries for the augments.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I didn't realise that we were calling dibs...

Surely, as long as no plagerism occurs, its all fair?

To my mind, calling dibs on combinations will skew the competition as more attention will always go to the more unusual combinations.

Exactly. In fact, I don't even mind if someone takes inspiration from a class feature that I created and manages to do so in a more interesting, more creative way, so long as they don't outright steal my flavor or idea.

I'd actually be interested in a contest where the requirements are more stringent: for example, everyone has to do a Cleric prestige class for Clerics with the Death domain. Something where the variety is constrained, so we're forced to differentiate what could be very similar prestige classes.

But maybe that's just me. :smallbiggrin:

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Posted the Thalassic Witch. Enjoy.

I'm a bit underwhelmed by it myself, so it's likely that if laziness doesn't take over I'll go back and revise it some.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Posted the Thalassic Witch. Enjoy.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Krimm Blackleaf has entered the contest. It is, as usual, beautifully done and surprisingly simple, while still maintaining great flavor. I think you erred on the side of static powers and small bonuses, but, oddly enough, it does work. The statement of underwhelmed is applicable though...it's good, but it's not your best work.

I'll admit Krimm: I am a little worried about full invoking, full spellcasting, and summon monster at will, but I'd have to see it in play before I tell you that you can't have nice things.

I'm also going to apologize: if I end up making the Choirmaster of the Voiceless (still not sure...I'm going back and forth between all my ideas), there will be at least one class feature that may seem uncomfortably close to The Dead Still Speak. Just wanted to let you know ahead of time: I'm not stealing your ideas, just going with something that, in my mind, makes a lot of sense for a Bard/Necromancer.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Krimm Blackleaf has entered the contest. It is, as usual, beautifully done and surprisingly simple, while still maintaining great flavor. I think you erred on the side of static powers and small bonuses, but, oddly enough, it does work. The statement of underwhelmed is applicable though...it's good, but it's not your best work.

I'll admit Krimm: I am a little worried about full invoking, full spellcasting, and summon monster at will, but I'd have to see it in play before I tell you that you can't have nice things.

I'm also going to apologize: if I end up making the Choirmaster of the Voiceless (still not sure...I'm going back and forth between all my ideas), there will be at least one class feature that may seem uncomfortably close to The Dead Still Speak. Just wanted to let you know ahead of time: I'm not stealing your ideas, just going with something that, in my mind, makes a lot of sense for a Bard/Necromancer.

I think I unconsciously made everything a bit static and rigid, which looking back seems to fit the flavor of witchiness I was going for. At least it does in my head. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

I can probably cut off the first level of one and the last level of the other. I try to give full casting to classes like this most of the time because Mystic Theurge Syndrome has made me inappropriately paranoid.

No worries, your constant speak with dead is by far more suiting than mine.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Just added a little extra bit I forgot to add before. Also to balance it some, I added spellcasting/invocation level loss.

[ErrantX]

All in all, yet another strong work Krimm. Good stuff, I think static bonuses was the way to go with this sort of a class, and the caster level/invoker level trade off was worth the price. Mystic Theurge syndrome aside, you could go full and still get away with it, but that would be less balanced and more for keeping up with the Jones'. I especially like all the fluff added, and the adaption section in particular. I could happily see a psion/warlock or shadowcaster/warlock combo entering a class like this and having it be totally awesome. Brine Immortal is both powerful and situational, making it a great capstone and fitting for the flavor of the class. I see this being more NPC in nature, but that's really okay. Adding this to a Stormwrack-centric game or a horror-centric game would be awesome.

Good stuff, great job!
-X

[Mulletmanalive]

Well, Krimm's scored points in my book already because this is just begging to see play as an antagonist. Begging.

That and its the first time his Lovecraftian workings have been generic enough to import without dragging Nyarlathotep into a game.

Sweet work dude!

My one comment is that i've seen a power similar to the Call Forth the Indescribable before and i liked that one a little better because it was still At-Will but had a duration of Concentration, preventing it from being used to just crush your opponents with corpses. Would that work here, do you think, or would that be too limiting?

As it is, the only thing limiting the effectiveness of this power so far is that the creatures will end up chasing fleeing stuff more often than not because you don't have the Move-actions to change their targets. I can't really come up with a good reason to do anything else once i'm able to summon Psuedonatural Megalodons...

[Violet Octopus]

Great class, Krimm. As others have said, it makes for a great antagonist, but also works fine as a PC class. Fulfill desires would be a fun ability to have as a morally dubious/evil PC, though I wouldn't be able to resist calling it "Poor Unfortunate Souls" instead.

Two questions:
When you posted earlier about the class, you said it would be enterable by divine spellcasters. However, I think only the spirit shaman can enter without having a spellcasting stat reduced. Any problems if it gets changed to Cha loss if a cleric enters?

As you progress, you gain improved saves against confusion, eventually immunity. Does this render you immune to the 1st level feature of becoming confused whenever you would be shaken, or only against spells and stuff that directly cause confusion?