GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread [Archive] - Page 5 - Giant in the Playground Forums

boomwolf

2010-01-09, 11:46 AM

Good to see I'm that obvious.

But I wonder even more what do you think about this latest creation of mine. (altough fluff is still in work-I think you are a bit familiar with the fluff of this class from -other- sources.)

As for my toughs:

Golden Ninja:
A highly restrictive class, that very few will qualify from by "accident", and only straight aiming for it will ever work. a problem in my book, but the highly unique nature of the class might make it worthy (stealth by light is a nice spin.)
Powerful abilities, great flavor, but it seems to by light on it (no pun intended)
Add some more flavor dude!

Lancer:
So...you have a lance, and you are damn good with it. while the abilities are solid in mechanics, they don't seem to have much flavor there. I mean-you just pile bonuses and widen the area you can effectively attack-but that's it, nothing "new" comes out of it.
I mean, its all either highly situational or nothing more then a bonus to attack/damage/range.

Combat Opportunist:
First thing first-what on earth is "Dancing Leaf"?
Other then that, the fact this class grants new maneuvers as class abilities is interesting, but risky. and some abilities are amazingly easy to overcome the "limit" (a DC 20 skill check is easy to bypass even without magic items.)
The capstone is a whole other story. its so over-the-top powerful that I don't even want to start. Its a potential 7 full attacks per round BEFORE magic items gets involved.

Dynamist:
Intresting. speed was always a loved topic with, but you didn't seem to take it into too many special places.
The additional attacks are nice, and vastly more effective then the monk's, but the sprinting, especially the capstone, is really underwhelming.
Another issue is that "Improve Pounce" is confusing like hell. how exactly does it work?
Final problem lies with the fact that you encourage both full attacks, and movement. and you can't do both at once until very late.

Voidblade Eliminator:
I love it, it got flavor and it got abilities. It actually makes the Mindblade viable!
The only complain I've got is the gender separation. it a ground for problems with politically correct, and you know it. I'd advise to remove the "unique female entry" from the entry requirements.
On another note, I'm not sure the cold part of the capstone is fitting, after all even undead can be hurt by freezing it. you still got living tissues, and they ARE effected by sever cold. heck even a rock is damaged by cold.

White Lion Knight:
Ranger/Paladin. you should have submitted it in the hybrid contest methinks. anyways I like it alot. ninth level is a bit weak-but its the quite before the storm that is the capstone.
High potential there. need time to look more into it.

Underdog:
Don't want to be harsh, but I dislike the concept as a whole, and the abilities themselves seem like just another style of a rouge rather then a real PrC. it also seems unfinished. it clearly needs some more work.

Phantom:
Another hybrid? what? people keep submitting work they didn't finish in time for last contest? same on you people!
Kidding.
Anyway, I love the luckstealer concept. but I don't think the maneuver advancement is really necessary here. and all maneuvers can be easily worked out of the class and leave it completely viable, with only one or two abilities and a new entry requirement to replace manouvers need to be made. the manovers really add nothing to the class but dead wight

White Raven Commander:
Obvious concept, yet still cute. seems quite undone though. cute anyway. I want to see the aura's made.
Never been a great fan of White Raven myself. but this has its own potential. just need some more clarification on that sub-school because I don't quite get it.

Dashing Swordsman:
Boomwolf! its great to see you are back in the scene, may I say I admire your works? I hope you win this one!
:P

Master of Perception
Interesting concept, and solid structure. but the post need to be organized as its in a total mess right now, and not all readers got good perception (pun is intended this time.)

Didn't look into the others yet, and got no time to do so. sorry folks.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-09, 06:36 PM

Another hybrid? what? people keep submitting work they didn't finish in time for last contest? same on you people!

Mine's a hybrid also... :smalleek: I actually do have a class that I was working for on that and never finished on time. But it isn't a warrior class so I'm waiting until the next hybrid contest or some other more appropriate contest to post it. Hybrids are fun.

Vaynor

2010-01-09, 07:09 PM

Ok the fluff is up and my class is done.

Any comments/criticisms?

JoshuaZ

2010-01-09, 08:01 PM

Ok. Going through. Some of them I don't have anything substantive to say and so will skip them. I can't guarantee that comments I do make will in fact have any substantive value.

Ninja of the Golden Sun

I like this one fluff wise a lot. The mechanics and fluff fit very well together.

Voidblade Eliminator

Another class I like a lot. Minor nitpick:

Armor of Absence (Su): At eight level and higher, whenever a Voidblade Eliminator expends her psionic focus to activate her Shed Spells calss feature, she is also ignored by all unwanted spells and supernatural effects that are currently affecting her or that include her in their areas for one round; the Voidblade Eliminator is treated as though she simply wasn’t there to be affected. The spells and effects resume affecting her, if they are still able, at the end of this ability’s duration, though the Voidblade Eliminator’s round of absence does still count against their duration.

A Voidblade Eliminator may use this ability to act in defiance of a time stop spell or effect.

That's not how Time stop works. From the SRD:

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds.

This may still work with slight fluff readjustment. I would suggest that the Armor of Absence pulls in the extra time from the spell to surround the Voidblade as well or something like that.

White Knight Lion

Blah, blah, blah, another good guy crusading against evil. We've all... wait, they get white lions as companions that will rip people apart? That's awesome!

Phantom

This seems ok. The class name seems to not have much to do with what it does.

White Raven Commander

I like the general idea. I don't see any description of what disciplines they can learn maneuvers in so that should be thrown in (I presume that it is going to be White Raven and some small list of others).

Dashing Swordsman

There have been a few versions of this class done already but this one looks like it is independently interesting. I like the style point mechanic.

Silver Sword Mageslayer

Putting those pesky wizards in their place is always a good thing. Other people have commented on Track Teleportation already. To make it maybe more useful maybe add an ability somewhere that allows them to know the direction and distance to any mage they've injured recently? Maybe within the last class level * days? That would be useful.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-09, 09:43 PM

Alright, this has been mentioned several times already, so I'm going to deal with it now:

Waaaah, Girls Get Special Treatment: Tough luck. D&D, as has been repeatedly mentioned, is not the real world, and the Voidblade Eliminators are trained by an organization, which has its own policies, personalities, and problems. Is there any special reason that Eliminators need to be women? Probably not. But they think there is, and in any event they've been giving men the short shrift for quite some time already. So what if it's not politically correct? The game setting isn't politically correct.

That's all I have to say on the matter. End of discussion.

Arbitrarious

2010-01-09, 10:55 PM

Phew, I've been moving so I haven't updated the White Raven Commander as much as I intended. I put most of the meat on and will be laying the fluff on shortly.

If there is interest I may go ahead and write up a finished Wing Legion, but I don't know if I should put it with the White Raven Commander or post it separately.

Vaynor

2010-01-09, 11:51 PM

@DaTedinator: Naked Knight seems very overpowered for a first level ability, and very easily taken advantage of. Because of the amount of AC boosters that aren't armor, a class such as a sorcerer could easily boost his AC to an extreme amount just by taking a single level in this class, and then using the normal ways of boosting AC (such as ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, etc).

ErrantX

2010-01-09, 11:56 PM

Good. Lord.

I have a lot of entries! This is probably the largest amount of entries in the history of this contest! Wow!

-X

DragoonWraith

2010-01-09, 11:59 PM

I still have mine, which I've been working on. Can't quite get it where I want it... I'm not entirely sure of the direction I've been taking the fluff in, and might want to change it.

Xallace

2010-01-10, 12:32 AM

@DaTedinator: I think the bonus granted by Naked Charge should be a morale bonus, personally. That or it applies a penalty to the target's AC, and thus should be [Mind-Affecting].

Eurus

2010-01-10, 02:01 AM

@DaTedinator:Are you sure you don't want to open your PrC up to females, too? It'd require renaming it, of course, but it'd also provide an explanation for all of those pictures of pathetically armored fantasy women. :smallwink:

Vaynor

2010-01-10, 02:08 AM

DaTedinator

2010-01-10, 01:08 PM

Vaynor, yeah, I had those same thoughts, and I think I'ma change it to an armor bonus to avoid stacking with bracers of armor, that sort of thing. And Xallace, a morale bonus is exactly what it should be, you're right.

And fear not, I did indeed have naked ladies in mind! Just with the comments about female-only classes, and my difficulty coming up good names for class abilities, I thought it would be funny to make it male-only, and then stick this in the "adaptation" section:

Adaptation: It takes about three seconds worth of effort to change the Sons of Adam, shirtless and pantless Conan-esque warriors, into the Daughters of Eve, a chainmail-bikini wearing group of buxom young blondes. It's just flavor.

But, you're probably right, I should just name the class the naked knight and find different names for the abilities. Also, I found a nice picture for both genders!

Golden-Esque

2010-01-10, 02:56 PM

Ranger/Paladin. you should have submitted it in the hybrid contest methinks. anyways I like it alot. ninth level is a bit weak-but its the quite before the storm that is the capstone. High potential there. need time to look more into it.

I'm SORRY! I didn't start entering the Homebrew contests until the "Where the Wyld Things Are" contest! Wait ... no ... stop it! Stop ... lashing ... meeeeeeee!

Anywho, 9th level used to have an ability, but it got axed because it was too confusing and potentially broken. It essentially let your lion turn into a copy of you while you were a lion. You know, the old switcheroo game. I never bothered to try and fill in that gap because the whole class is pretty ability-rich.

DracoDei

2010-01-10, 04:15 PM

Ok, my Leap Dragoon should be ready for initial PEACHing... lot of abilities I am not sure of:

The damage multiplier - it is just supposed to (approximately) make up for not getting in a full attack the previous turn as far as damage output goes, not sure how fast to progress it for that purpose.
Item Affinity - Designed to evoke the cheapness of curative/restorative items from the games.
Pheonix Down - Powerful enough to get its own listing apart from the above... will have a limit on number of rounds since death, but other than that it is going to be True Ressurection with a full action casting time (not full round, so hard to interupt), and probably without the material component... might tone it back to Ressurection but then nobody will use it hardly ever.

And, yes, I know Spears of the Heavens is only sketched out... but it should be enough to give the idea.

Other things I may do:
Examine the Sohei Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7465208#post7465208) so I can see about maybe making entry easier for both it and Paladins.
EDIT: Sohei Adept should be fine... it has to dip cleric (or Wizard or Sorcerer) to get the casting, but pretty much any character trying to get into Leap Dragoon needs to multiclass a bit.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-10, 05:45 PM

Finally posted mine - I'd love to hear input!

dawnsolara

2010-01-10, 05:54 PM

My class is almost completely up, ready for critiques . . . just need to figure out how I want their mount to progress, and I'd like to write a feat or two for them. Does anyone have any thoughts on introducing a new bonus type or not?

Thanks

DaTedinator

2010-01-10, 06:13 PM

Finally posted mine - I'd love to hear input!

Your class sucks and nobody likes it! HAH! Bet you didn't love to hear that input!

...:smallcool:

All seriousness aside, I like it. I avoid grappling like the plague, so I'd never use it, but it seems balanced, and it's certainly flavorful. I'd let one of my players use it, sure.

The only three things that stick out at me would be...
(A) at first level, your primary class ability is a penalty. I mean, you get +1 BAB, +2 to two saves, and a maneuver known and readied, not to mention grapple bonuses, so on second thought it's fine, nevermind that one, I only have two things that stick out at me.

So real (A) would be that, while not allowing them to use any class abilities while not in the chains is fine, forcing them to keep track of which maneuvers they learned with this class seems a little much. I don't think it would be a problem to let them use their maneuvers without the chains.

And (B) would be the constricting damage from Unbreakable Chains could get a little ridiculous. Seeing as it's based on an opposed roll, and not to mention the fact that he's certainly going to be optimized for grappling, if he happens to roll really high and his opponent happens to roll really low? There could be some crazy damage happening there. With Chains of Destiny it only gets higher.

---
Sigh. Dawnsolara, asking for help while I'm already giving some makes me feel like I have to give some to you too.

First off, I severely dislike the huge penalties for a dead mount. Having a gap of time where I can't get a new mount sucks enough already, but to lose a level? Hardcore sucks, it's why so many people completely ignore familiars. If you won't get rid of anything, at the very least change it to a negative level that doesn't go away until they have a new mount, but that never results in actual level loss.

I wouldn't bother introducing a new bonus type. It'd already stack with everything else; unless you're planning on coming up with stacking rules, and more classes/feats/whatever that implement bond bonuses, I'd just leave it with unnamed.

Final note would be the wording of the wording of Mounted Supremacy II and III:

When you get this class feature, you may choose any two of the following abilities whose prerequisites you meet, or an ability from Mounted Supremacy I [or II] whose prerequisites you meet.

It makes it sound like I can get two from the current list, or one from the previous list. As opposed to Mounted Supremacy IV:

When you get this class feature, choose any two of the following abilities or previous Mounted Supremacy abilities whose prerequisites you meet.

Which is clearly how the previous ones work too. Plus it doesn't even mention specific numbers, you could just copy/paste that two the previous two.

Kallisti

2010-01-10, 06:36 PM

Finally posted mine - I'd love to hear input!

The flavor is...obscenely awesome. If you don't tone it down, you'll hurt somebody. Best flavor so far, although Djinn's entry looks like it'll be awesome too once it's finished.

I'm less fond of the mechanics. It's focused on chain weapons and uses the Chthonic Serpent discipline, so it seems like it'd encourage a high-dexterity character, but it gets a max dex bonus of +4, which really really hurts. Chains That Bind is too massive a penalty to make the class worth it to Dex builds. Besides, looking at your picture he's wearing robes, not armor, but Chains That Bind makes unarmored fighting much, much more likely to get you killed. Armor Check Penalty is fine, though. If I were you, I'd increase the Armor Check Penalty by maybe 4 or 5 points, or more if you feel it's necessary, and leave off the max dex bonus.

Bound In Iron is decent, but nothing to write home about since it's based off class level and not character level. It'll stop being relevant pretty quickly. I'd use 1/2 HD, instead, if I were you. That's more standard anyway.

Chains of Regret is kind of cool, but won't have too much mechanical effect.

Bound By Sorrow is more like it. I like that one.

Chains of Honor is also pretty cool, and more likely to get used than Chains of Regret, but the mitigation to the penalty from Chains That Bind is not enough to make up for having a relatively-low max dex bonus on a class like this.

The DC on Bound By Oath is pretty low, but it's at-will so I'm not entirely sure how that works out. Still, it won't last very long since Hold Monster allows a save every round.

Unbreakable Chains is a good one.

Bound in Blood is a good one.

Chains of Destiny is good.

Bound by Fate is a very nice capstone. I might increase the penalty to -15, though, since thanks to Unbreakable Chains he's already got a +8 Size mod. Unless Unbreakable Chains stacks with Bound By Sorrow.

All in all, most of the lower-level abilities are too weak and Chains That Bind is way too harsh, but other than that I like it.

Vaynor

2010-01-10, 07:15 PM

Wow we just hit 23 entries. That's quite a lot. I wonder if this is the most.

Also, an immediate problem I see with the SssSsSss is determining whether or not it is plural.

Owrtho

2010-01-10, 07:17 PM

I decided to put up an entry for this contest. It was kinda thrown together so I'm not sure how good or balanced it is. Input would be appreciated.

Owrtho

DragoonWraith

2010-01-10, 08:06 PM

Your class sucks and nobody likes it! HAH! Bet you didn't love to hear that input!

...:smallcool:
:smalltongue:

All seriousness aside, I like it. I avoid grappling like the plague, so I'd never use it, but it seems balanced, and it's certainly flavorful. I'd let one of my players use it, sure.

The only three things that stick out at me would be...
(A) at first level, your primary class ability is a penalty. I mean, you get +1 BAB, +2 to two saves, and a maneuver known and readied, not to mention grapple bonuses, so on second thought it's fine, nevermind that one, I only have two things that stick out at me.
Yeah, making the initial level be something of a penalty was meant to make it less of an "obvious" take, since initially it didn't have any Feat requirements and 4 ranks in two skills seemed just too easy. I'll have to tone it down now that I've added the Law Devotion requirement, though, I think. More on that in response to Kallisti.

So real (A) would be that, while not allowing them to use any class abilities while not in the chains is fine, forcing them to keep track of which maneuvers they learned with this class seems a little much. I don't think it would be a problem to let them use their maneuvers without the chains.
The reason I did that is because the class gives a lot of maneuvers. It's a 10/10 maneuver progression; that's matched only by the Swordsage itself. Maybe a more normal progression would make more sense, though.

And (B) would be the constricting damage from Unbreakable Chains could get a little ridiculous. Seeing as it's based on an opposed roll, and not to mention the fact that he's certainly going to be optimized for grappling, if he happens to roll really high and his opponent happens to roll really low? There could be some crazy damage happening there. With Chains of Destiny it only gets higher.
Yeah, unfortunately I have very little experience with grappling, so I'm not sure. The real issue is humanoids and monsters, I think. Some monsters have utterly ridiculous grapple checks. Colossal vermin typically have like +50. The Tarrasque has +81. I think the answer is to not make it based on the opposed check, so it doesn't do nothing against these creatures.

The flavor is...obscenely awesome. If you don't tone it down, you'll hurt somebody. Best flavor so far, although Djinn's entry looks like it'll be awesome too once it's finished.
Wow, thanks! Took a long time to get the flavor where I wanted it. Glad you like it.

I'm less fond of the mechanics.
Aw.

It's focused on chain weapons and uses the Chthonic Serpent discipline, so it seems like it'd encourage a high-dexterity character
Huh... Chthonic Serpent certainly is intended to make Dexterity-based grapplers possible, but I'm sort of surprised that you expect the discipline's PrC to be good at it. Still...

Besides, looking at your picture he's wearing robes, not armorThis is true. Mostly, it comes down to being the only even remotely appropriate image I could find (and honestly, though the lack of armor is not exactly as I pictured it, I love the way that image looks. Really captures the remorse I was going for). Still, considering that it is the image I have, I'll reconsider Chains that Bind.

but it gets a max dex bonus of +4, which really really hurts. Chains That Bind is too massive a penalty to make the class worth it to Dex builds. [...] Chains That Bind makes unarmored fighting much, much more likely to get you killed. Armor Check Penalty is fine, though. If I were you, I'd increase the Armor Check Penalty by maybe 4 or 5 points, or more if you feel it's necessary, and leave off the max dex bonus.
I agree with all of this, it's just a question of intent. Honestly, the +4 was meant to be a minor penalty, much in the way that -1 armor check penalty or 5% ASF is minor. Assuming I wanted to keep any max Dex, what would be an appropriate number? EDIT: I made it +6. Let me know if that is still too much impediment. You'll note that Alika is now Dex-based.

What if I made the chains themselves a kind of armor, giving a Deflection bonus to AC? EDIT: Gave +2 Armor bonus.

Not saying that I'm not going to do things exactly as you say - I'm tempted to - but I'd like to consider my options, and so input on this would be nice.

Bound In Iron is decent, but nothing to write home about since it's based off class level and not character level. It'll stop being relevant pretty quickly. I'd use 1/2 HD, instead, if I were you. That's more standard anyway.
Uhh... 10 + 1/2 HD ranges from 13 to 20, from level 7 (2) when you get the ability to 20 at level 20. 10 + Lv. ranges from 12 to 20, from level 7 (2) when you first get it, to level 15 (10) when you finish the class. You get the same numbers, but more quickly. How would 1/2 HD improve things?

Chains of Regret is kind of cool, but won't have too much mechanical effect.
Just seemed fitting. You're also getting a Stance at that level, so it seems OK.

Bound By Sorrow is more like it. I like that one.
Well, Freedom of Movement is one of the immediate and obvious problems with grappling. I figured I had to deal with it somehow.

Size issues are the other problem. So boom.

Chains of Honor is also pretty cool, and more likely to get used than Chains of Regret, but the mitigation to the penalty from Chains That Bind is not enough to make up for having a relatively-low max dex bonus on a class like this.
That's actually a typo; I meant to waive the max Dex of the chains at that point, too. Does that make it better? EDIT: Fixed this typo.

Anyway, I rather like the effect of Chains of Honor. I felt like a class like this needed a way to make everyone absolutely certain he was telling the truth - and a way to make others equally truthful. I actually made it 1/day so that the Bound can lie without everyone being like "Why don't you use Chains of Honor and prove you're telling the truth?"

The DC on Bound By Oath is pretty low, but it's at-will so I'm not entirely sure how that works out. Still, it won't last very long since Hold Monster allows a save every round.
Oops, that should have an ability modifier in there somewhere, shouldn't it? And maybe a higher base than 10. Will fix. EDIT: Left the base at 10, but let you use Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution for the DC - any of your grapple-improving abilities.

Unbreakable Chains is a good one.
Heh, that ability went through sooo many iterations. I tend to like it too, but DaTedinator brings up some really good points about the possible disparities between grapple scores...

Bound in Blood is a good one.
Of course, that's pretty standard for a ToB PrC at this point, I think. Heh, I like it, anyway.

Chains of Destiny is good.
Yeah, I was really unsure of the penalty there. But I felt like it was really fitting, and I wanted some drawbacks to the class. I'd love more feedback on that system there. I should clarify that it's eight hours of rest after he's stopped being unlawful. EDIT: Added this clarification.

Bound by Fate is a very nice capstone. I might increase the penalty to -15, though, since thanks to Unbreakable Chains he's already got a +8 Size mod. Unless Unbreakable Chains stacks with Bound By Sorrow.
Doesn't stack, will clarify that. EDIT: Did clarify that.

I want him to be able to use it on big beasties, too, though... I think I'll make the penalty scale depending on the law/chaos alignment of the target.

All in all, most of the lower-level abilities are too weak and Chains That Bind is way too harsh, but other than that I like it.
Well, lemme know what you think about my responses; I'm not sure I agree about all of them that you say are too weak. Certainly Bound by Oath requires a higher save, but other than that? As for Chains that Bind, will think about how I want to change that one.

EDIT: I've updated it a bit, more feedback would be nice. Alika's now a Swordsage, and I think it's increased his power considerably. Thoughts?

Hyooz

2010-01-11, 01:52 AM

Got my entry in. I will be making tweaks here and there on advice from friends and hopefully, you GitPers.

Questions and comments on the Grammaton Cleric? I'd love input.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-11, 11:08 AM

I haven't really read through yours, but I would point out that someone's already done the Grammaton Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57103). Never seen the movie, can't really comment on which works better.

Glimbur

2010-01-11, 04:24 PM

I really shouldn't be allowed to name classes. Besides that problem, and the various restrictions making the SssSsSss difficult to qualify for, what do y'all think?

JoshuaZ

2010-01-11, 04:56 PM

Ok. I think my Knight of the Grave is now in good enough shape to ask people what they think of it.

Vaynor

2010-01-11, 05:09 PM

I really shouldn't be allowed to name classes. Besides that problem, and the various restrictions making the SssSsSss difficult to qualify for, what do y'all think?

Well I'm not sure what you mean by "Know: Religion", I'm assuming you mean "Knowledge (religion)" but you may want to clarify.

And, holy crap, Timeless Strike is incredibly overpowered. It's a very high DC, and usable very often. If you remove the aging affect and change the DC to 10 + 1/2 SssSsSss level + Str mod it might be ok.

Other than that it looks pretty good, I like the bardic knowledge and the abilities are interesting.

DracoDei

2010-01-11, 05:30 PM

DaTedinator

2010-01-11, 05:40 PM

Might I suggest, well before it becomes an issue, that a run-off may be appropriate here? So the best entry really wins, and not as subject to random fluxuations in voting? With this many entries...

P.S. And can I get some reviews?

I second all of that. Including reviews, though given how many people are asking for them, you can put me at the bottom of your list to review, I'm pretty okay with the way it turned out.

Owrtho

2010-01-11, 05:49 PM

I also agree with the idea for a run off. I'd like to get some reviews, but don't know that the chances of mine winning would be much improved by them.

Owrtho

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-11, 05:50 PM

Might I suggest, well before it becomes an issue, that a run-off may be appropriate here? So the best entry really wins, and not as subject to random fluxuations in voting? With this many entries...

P.S. And can I get some reviews?

I would agree that this may be the best course of action, assuming no class wins by an enormous margin. If there is, for example, a 10 point lead, this might not be necessary.

Also, over the next two days, I will be finishing up the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void. Keep an eye out...it's coming. :smallbiggrin:

JoshuaZ

2010-01-11, 05:52 PM

Might I suggest, well before it becomes an issue, that a run-off may be appropriate here? So the best entry really wins, and not as subject to random fluxuations in voting? With this many entries...

That's a really good point. We have now 24 entries and almost a month to go before the contest ends. It might make sense to have a run off of the top 3 or 4.

P.S. And can I get some reviews?

Hmm, I'm not sure how to comment on this one. It seems like it is based on something but I have no idea what. Without more fluff details it is hard to comment in that regard. Ok. Based on Freya Crescent. Got it.

The balance looks mainly ok (with the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on that at all). However, some of the abilities (especially Greater Leap Attack and Leap Attack (float)) seem overly wordy. That might be solved simply be using more paragraph breaks.

Also on the spell list, what is Phoenix Down? That's a not a spell I recognize. Is there some FF thing here I'm missing? I don't know if anyone has made a version of that spell from the games. Whatever it is you are going to need to stat out what it is. A note in advance of that: if it does anything like what that does in the games then having it as a 4th level spell may present issues for other classes. In particular, the spell can then be duplicated by a Wish or Lesser Wish. So it might make sense to add a note that the spell counts as some higher level (maybe 7th or 8th level) for purposes of duplication.

Additional for crafting (Caster level must be at least twice the spell level minus 1, use Sor/Wiz and Cleric lists to determine levels): Cure X Wounds, Calm Emotions, Death Ward, Delay Poison, Dispel Magic, Neutralize Poison, Raise Dead, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Ressurrection, Lesser Restoration, Negative Energy Protection, Stone to Flesh, True Ressurection, Restoration

This may need some wording explanation. I presume you mean something like "A Leap Dragoon is also considered to have access to the following spells for purposes of item crafting:"

DragoonWraith

2010-01-11, 05:52 PM

I have every intention of reading through all the classes and giving what feedback I can... it's just rather daunting.

Owrtho

2010-01-11, 06:02 PM

I have every intention of reading through all the classes and giving what feedback I can... it's just rather daunting.

Then why not start small and do mine first? It's only 5 levels.

Owrtho

DracoDei

2010-01-11, 06:16 PM

The balance looks mainly ok (with the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on that at all). However, some of the abilities (especially Greater Leap Attack and Leap Attack (float)) seem overly wordy. That might be solved simply be using more paragraph breaks.

Also on the spell list, what is Phoenix Down? That's a not a spell I recognize. Is there some FF thing here I'm missing? I don't know if anyone has made a version of that spell from the games. Whatever it is you are going to need to stat out what it is.
I have that written up, but I wanted to look over the spells before posting them.

A note in advance of that: if it does anything like what that does in the games then having it as a 4th level spell may present issues for other classes. In particular, the spell can then be duplicated by a Wish or Lesser Wish. So it might make sense to add a note that the spell counts as some higher level (maybe 7th or 8th level) for purposes of duplication.
VERY good catch. It does do pretty much exactly what it does in the games. (although I might have it only restore CON to 1 and not heal any ability score damage to other abilities and some other nerfs).

This may need some wording explanation. I presume you mean something like "A Leap Dragoon is also considered to have access to the following spells for purposes of item crafting:"
Yes, that is what I mean.

DracoDei

2010-01-11, 06:44 PM

Ok, have made initial attempts at fixing everything except the whole "Phoenix Down" thing (since I am at a library at the moment).

Kallisti

2010-01-11, 07:15 PM

1. Wow, thanks! Took a long time to get the flavor where I wanted it. Glad you like it.

2. Aw.

3. Huh... Chthonic Serpent certainly is intended to make Dexterity-based grapplers possible, but I'm sort of surprised that you expect the discipline's PrC to be good at it. Still...
This is true. Mostly, it comes down to being the only even remotely appropriate image I could find (and honestly, though the lack of armor is not exactly as I pictured it, I love the way that image looks. Really captures the remorse I was going for). Still, considering that it is the image I have, I'll reconsider Chains that Bind.

4. I agree with all of this, it's just a question of intent. Honestly, the +4 was meant to be a minor penalty, much in the way that -1 armor check penalty or 5% ASF is minor. Assuming I wanted to keep any max Dex, what would be an appropriate number? EDIT: I made it +6. Let me know if that is still too much impediment. You'll note that Alika is now Dex-based.

5. What if I made the chains themselves a kind of armor, giving a Deflection bonus to AC? EDIT: Gave +2 Armor bonus.

6. Not saying that I'm not going to do things exactly as you say - I'm tempted to - but I'd like to consider my options, and so input on this would be nice.

7. Uhh... 10 + 1/2 HD ranges from 13 to 20, from level 7 (2) when you get the ability to 20 at level 20. 10 + Lv. ranges from 12 to 20, from level 7 (2) when you first get it, to level 15 (10) when you finish the class. You get the same numbers, but more quickly. How would 1/2 HD improve things?

8. Just seemed fitting. You're also getting a Stance at that level, so it seems OK.

9. Well, Freedom of Movement is one of the immediate and obvious problems with grappling. I figured I had to deal with it somehow.

Size issues are the other problem. So boom.

10. That's actually a typo; I meant to waive the max Dex of the chains at that point, too. Does that make it better? EDIT: Fixed this typo.

11. Anyway, I rather like the effect of Chains of Honor. I felt like a class like this needed a way to make everyone absolutely certain he was telling the truth - and a way to make others equally truthful. I actually made it 1/day so that the Bound can lie without everyone being like "Why don't you use Chains of Honor and prove you're telling the truth?"

12. Oops, that should have an ability modifier in there somewhere, shouldn't it? And maybe a higher base than 10. Will fix. EDIT: Left the base at 10, but let you use Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution for the DC - any of your grapple-improving abilities.

13. Heh, that ability went through sooo many iterations. I tend to like it too, but DaTedinator brings up some really good points about the possible disparities between grapple scores...

14. Of course, that's pretty standard for a ToB PrC at this point, I think. Heh, I like it, anyway.

15. Yeah, I was really unsure of the penalty there. But I felt like it was really fitting, and I wanted some drawbacks to the class. I'd love more feedback on that system there. I should clarify that it's eight hours of rest after he's stopped being unlawful. EDIT: Added this clarification.

16. Doesn't stack, will clarify that. EDIT: Did clarify that.

I want him to be able to use it on big beasties, too, though... I think I'll make the penalty scale depending on the law/chaos alignment of the target.

17. Well, lemme know what you think about my responses; I'm not sure I agree about all of them that you say are too weak. Certainly Bound by Oath requires a higher save, but other than that? As for Chains that Bind, will think about how I want to change that one.

EDIT: I've updated it a bit, more feedback would be nice. Alika's now a Swordsage, and I think it's increased his power considerably. Thoughts?

1. Quite welcome. This is probably the best take on the "Knight-penitent" archetype I've seen in an RPG, and I love my mental image of a Bound in combat.

2. Sorry.

3. I...totally failed to pick up on that, sorry. Most of the Chthonic Serpent "soft weapons" are the kinds of things I'd expect to see on a Dex build, like a TWF, Trip or AoO build (or a TWF Trip AoO build, which is what I'm running for Long Shadows and Bright Steel), but after reading the maneuvers more closely I can see a Str-based character doing well with it. Which reminds me, I still need to find a way to use Dex instead of Str for grappling and tripping... But OK, for a Str-based build Chains that Bind is much less of a deal-breaker. I think +6 is fair, especially if the Max Dex gets waived about halfway through the class. That way if you go in immediately it'll be a minor penalty, but if you delay entering it could be a pretty significant penalty until you hit that mid-level. Which for such a flavor-focused class works well.

4. See above, and I still haven't looked at the build for Alika. I will soon, though.

5. Sounds good.

6. Of course not. It's your class, do what you think works, not what I say. Besides, somebody else probably disagrees with me about some of this. You can't please everyone, so please yourself first.

7. I meant total character HD. You first get the ability at 11th character, 6th PrC. So it'd range from 16 to 20 as written, and 15 to 20...wait...and this is why math and I don't mix:smallsigh:. The standard formula is 10 + 1/2 HD + Attribute, and the problem was lack of attribute. OK, nvm, you already fixed that. Ignore me, I only pretend to be stupid.

8. As I said, cool ability. They don't all have to be powerful. In fact, a few abilities that are more flavorful than useful are usually a good idea. That said, you don't get any of the real powerhouse abilities until 6th--although Bound by Sorrow at fourth is a very nice boost that covers one of the most critical weaknesses of the build, it won't come into play very often, it'll just be a lifesaver when it does--so I'd worry about the Bound beginning to lag behind. That's why I think you should keep the maneuver progression full--to keep the character at regular ToB power levels until he really starts to shine midway through.

Besides, full maneuver progression is a nice boost, but the ToB multiclassing rules are very forgiving and there's always Master of Nine, or True Master of Nine if it's allowed, for a character really thirsting for manevers. Besides, the class is highly flavor-focused, so dips being abused is highly unlikely.

9. Agreed.

10. It works pretty well now. It'll be a penalty just large enough to make itself felt, but by the time you've amassed enough power for it to be a major issue, it'll be gone.

11. I wondered why it was limited like that. Good call. Besides, limited-use means it'll have a lot more dramatic power when it's used, which is a good thing for any class, especially a flavorful one.

12. See my above math fail. Letting you use whichever modifier seems generous, although not overbalancingly powerful. I'd be wary of allowing Constitution, because it's harder to justify fluff-wise, but it's your call. Mental scores are more traditional for this kind of power, so I'd at least toy with the idea of basing it off wisdom, but again, up to you.

13. Ehh, true, I suppose. Grapple isn't too hard to pump. I'd consider changing it to maybe d6's of constrict damage based off your Use Rope (from Chthonic Serpent, since none of the maneuvers seem to require the skill), Grapple score, BaB, or Str/Dex score, with maybe a small bonus for having acted perfectly in accordance with alignment for the past 24 hours or a similar flavor bonus.

14. It's a classic, yeah, but only because it works.

15. Well, it makes sense. I see the Bound going through the class knowing the law is not perfect and knowing he's had to violate it, but wishing he hadn't, and getting closer and closer to the perfectly lawful being he wishes he were while still being able to do what he has to if he absolutely must. This latest just means he needs a partner-in-crime to unbind him.

16. Right, opponent's size mods, I forgot. Still, with Coils of Rapture...no, Coils halves all size mods. A scaling penalty is a good idea. Maybe a floor of five (or probably higher) with an additional penalty for neutral targets and another for lawful targets.

17. Well, I hadn't really considered the impact of full BaB and full maneuver progression, so with the cap for Chains that Bind raised I say it looks pretty good.

DracoDei

2010-01-11, 10:08 PM

Ok, crude cut and paste of the new spells done... they were in an MS Word document and were written for 3.0, not 3.5... note that I WILL be leaving some of the 3.0 limitations on Phoenix Down (namely that it doesn't cure ability drain and damage very well, and that it only raises them to a few hitpoints.

Glimbur

2010-01-11, 10:39 PM

Well I'm not sure what you mean by "Know: Religion", I'm assuming you mean "Knowledge (religion)" but you may want to clarify.

And, holy crap, Timeless Strike is incredibly overpowered. It's a very high DC, and usable very often. If you remove the aging affect and change the DC to 10 + 1/2 SssSsSss level + Str mod it might be ok.

Other than that it looks pretty good, I like the bardic knowledge and the abilities are interesting.

Yeah, that was just an abbreviation.

Timeless Strike is a significantly weaker version of an 8th level spell. You have to hit with a melee attack and they actually get a save. The only way to resist Maze normally is SR. So it's a downgraded version of an 8th level spell 1/encounter, at ECL 16 (15 with LA buyoff). This isn't any sooner than a wizard could cast it, and Maze is nice but by itself it doesn't win encounters.

Also the save DC is the standard 10+PrC level+ability mod formula, 1/2 class level is for base classes.

The aging effect is mainly for flavor. It could be useful against short lived enemies like thri-kreen or azurin, or abused to help out dragons, but to an average monster 5 years isn't a big deal. If the PC's were invading a lizard nation and had to fight many lizardmen with Timeless Strike it could be an unrezzable TPK, but as a rare ability it should be ok.

Vaynor

2010-01-11, 10:53 PM

Yeah, that was just an abbreviation.

Timeless Strike is a significantly weaker version of an 8th level spell. You have to hit with a melee attack and they actually get a save. The only way to resist Maze normally is SR. So it's a downgraded version of an 8th level spell 1/encounter, at ECL 16 (15 with LA buyoff). This isn't any sooner than a wizard could cast it, and Maze is nice but by itself it doesn't win encounters.

Also the save DC is the standard 10+PrC level+ability mod formula, 1/2 class level is for base classes.

The aging effect is mainly for flavor. It could be useful against short lived enemies like thri-kreen or azurin, or abused to help out dragons, but to an average monster 5 years isn't a big deal. If the PC's were invading a lizard nation and had to fight many lizardmen with Timeless Strike it could be an unrezzable TPK, but as a rare ability it should be ok.

I wouldn't have a problem with the ability if it weren't for the aging, as it is a frequently usable and irreparable damage. Perhaps add apparent aging that fades with time for fluff, but actually aging is a bad idea in my opinion.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-11, 11:30 PM

Initial flavor and requirements for the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void are now up.

Thoughts?

Owrtho

2010-01-12, 12:07 AM

I wouldn't have a problem with the ability if it weren't for the aging, as it is a frequently usable and irreparable damage. Perhaps add apparent aging that fades with time for fluff, but actually aging is a bad idea in my opinion.

As a suggestion, how about making it so that while it instantly ages them 5 years, they then are in reverse for the next 2.5 years (and multiple instances would stack this reverse aging). Thus they would end up at the same age as normal at the point the reverse aging stopped.

I like the fluff for the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void. Though I noticed that at the beginning of the intro it says "let along contain". I take it this was supposed to be "let alone contain".
Also, I can't help but wonder how it would be if they tried fighting a Believer of the Void (in the other homebrew link of my sig).

Owrtho

Vaynor

2010-01-12, 12:21 AM

As a suggestion, how about making it so that while it instantly ages them 5 years, they then are in reverse for the next 2.5 years (and multiple instances would stack this reverse aging). Thus they would end up at the same age as normal at the point the reverse aging stopped.

I like the fluff for the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void. Though I noticed that at the beginning of the intro it says "let along contain". I take it this was supposed to be "let alone contain".
Also, I can't help but wonder how it would be if they tried fighting a Believer of the Void (in the other homebrew link of my sig).

Owrtho

Because aging them 5 years immediately could easily kill a PC permanently.

Owrtho

2010-01-12, 12:36 AM

DracoDei

2010-01-12, 12:44 AM

Regarding Ghost-Blade: The term you are looking for for the Con decrease is Ability Burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn).

Vaynor

2010-01-12, 12:46 AM

First, it already ages them 5 years from what I could tell. Also, I don't see how thats a huge or fatal time for a game character unless you like playing rather old characters (or short lived races, so maybe it should be scaled to average life span). Also it wouldn't have to be permanent death if they still aged reverse even if they died from the initial age increase (though they might still require a res).

Owrtho

I was under the impression that a character who died of old age could not be resurrected.

And after some quick checking:

You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age.

Edit: I know it's not going to happen often, but the save is pretty high for a possible permanent death. If you want it to be just for flavor then don't have it have such a harsh effect.

Owrtho

2010-01-12, 01:45 AM

Well, thats where you just put a qualifier in stating that if they do die of old age from this they can be resurrected upon reverse aging enough that they would no longer have died of old age. Or you could just state that they can't die from this aging effect.

Regarding Ghost-Blade: The term you are looking for for the Con decrease is Ability Burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn).

Thanks. So would that be called Constitution burn then? Since saying Constitution ability burn seems a little wordy.

Owrtho

Glimbur

2010-01-12, 02:06 AM

I dropped it back to one year of aging. I'm also considering a youthening effect, as they are warriors of the past and all, but that also has issues.

Any thoughts on the soulmelds? It seems to me that the Claws are the strongest part of the class; Gestalting this with Totemist would be obscene.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-01-12, 02:44 AM

Thanks. So would that be called Constitution burn then? Since saying Constitution ability burn seems a little wordy.

Yeah, it's just Con burn, like you'd say "Str drain" instead of "Str ability drain" or whatever.

Owrtho

2010-01-12, 03:02 AM

Fixed it. I still left in the note that it couldn't be healed though for those not familiar with it.

Owrtho

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-12, 03:46 PM

A mechanical quandary for you fine folks. What say you to the following mechanics for the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void?

Allowing you to choose a Meditation when gaining your Psionic Focus. One Meditation per Focus.
Meditations grant ongoing effects, similar to ToB Stances.
To use Chakra Flooding Resurgence, you must expend your Psionic Focus.
Each Meditation has a different effect that it applies to the Chakra Flooding Resurgence above and beyond the normal dazing effect.

For example:

Meditation of Oblivion's Edge: When in the Meditation of Oblivion's Edge, the Enlightened Master's attacks bypass all damage reduction. Damage dealt while in this meditation cannot be healed by Fast Healing or Regeneration.

When you end your Meditation of Oblivion's Edge to activate Chakra Flooding Resurgence, your energies burst from you as a ring of blades formed of raw Void stuff. All enemies within the area take damage equal to your Sudden Strike damage. This damage bypasses all damage reduction, and cannot be healed by Fast Healing or Regeneration.

On the round following your use of Chakra Flooding resurgence, all enemies who suffered damage from this ability must succeed on a Will save or suffer the effects a second time.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-12, 03:51 PM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-12, 03:52 PM

I like the mechanic. Balancing them may be tough.

I'm working from the Ninja here. I have a lot of leeway. :smallwink:

DragoonWraith

2010-01-12, 05:12 PM

I think that sounds flippin' awesome. You're incredible, Djinn.

DracoDei

2010-01-12, 05:23 PM

Ok, STARTING to review "Knight of the Grave" here...

Overall flavor is good for a fairly standard image. Although traditionally the rider would ALSO be undead, but that is irrelevant and for all I know the base classes that would best lead into this PrC might give an undead appearance...

There are some line wrap problems in the class skills area, don't THINK there are any outside of it.

First level ability section in the table has a typo. Should be "Rider OF the Dead".

That particular ability is a bit miss-worded. For on thing it sounds like you can ditch a cantrip to cast Summon Undead II. It should require at least a 2nd level spell slot. Also, the horse should probably arrive equipped, because riding a skeleton bare-back isn't my idea of a good idea. Even some barding might be nice at higher levels. I would consider giving bonus HD equal to the class level, rather than 1/2 class level... maybe even 1/2 CHARACTER level so it keeps pace even after you complete the class.

I would strongly consider giving them "Share Spells" with a summoned mount.

The "Spells" section is not in the usual place, and thus easy to miss.

Necromantic Prowess:
Could MAYBE be clearer that you get the bonus to ALL necromancy spells, even if they don't summon undead (not sure that there are any).

"Secrets of the Grave" COULD be read to imply that you don't get Spell Mastery for the spell added unless you already have Spell Mastery for at least one spell. This is because of the word "additional". I might say "If you have prepared casting, you may prepare the spell without the aid of a spellbook, as if you had if you had the feat Spell Mastery and it was one of the spells you had selected for that feat." That is probably too wordy, and the whole thing may be irrelevant, but there you go.

"[i]Sticky Saddle[/i ]" <-typo

Reduced Spell Failure helps make the character fit the mental image I have... The progression here for most characters (in case you hadn't figured it out and assuming they want 0% ASF is going to be: Bracers of Armor at 1st, Padded Armor at 2nd, Mithril Chain Shirt at 5th, and Mithril Breast-Plate at 8th.

"that sees you must make a will save any b must make a will save" <-typo.

"Master Rider" : Listing the location ("at the end of this post" or something) more precisely would be good.

((Skipped a bunch of stuff for the moment.))

"Dealer of Sublime Death" - A pretty weak feat, given that most maneuvers don't scale with initiator level. I would CONSIDER saying that you CAN use it to learn maneuvers and stances, BUT that you lose access to any that you don't otherwise meet the initiator level requirement to learn when you are not so mounted. So you can't initiate them, but you can still prepare them. Refreshing such maneuvers while not so mounted is borderline to me.

"Necrocarnum Mount" : Line wrap problem.

I shall probably say more later.

Xallace

2010-01-12, 05:39 PM

Golden-Esque

2010-01-12, 07:03 PM

I'm trying to think up some more good flavor for the Ninja of the Golden Eclipse, at the behest of several reviews. Right now, I'm digging the idea of the group having splintered from the church for believing an unorthodox text about the Big Shiny. The main church of Pelor considers them so absolutely heretical that when asked, the usual response is "They are not Pelorites." Problem is, I don't want to go the "Pelor the Burning Hate" route with this, so I'm a little stumped.

So far I've gone through "The Golden Eclipse is metaphor for Pelor's death, a big bad beastie that will consume him utterly unless we stop it first," but that didn't seem heretical; and "The Golden Eclipse is Pelor's shadow-self, a dichotomous mirror that represents his dark (but not evil!) side," but I wanted to put that on the back burner.

Any other ideas? I've considered removing the heretic aspect, though that seemed to remove some of the fun, too.

Make a Moon Deity that is Pelor's wife. The Ninjas serve the means and ends of both deities (hence an eclipse). The moon is also a symbol for a lone eye in the darkness, which could be interpreted as a force of good working in the night; a shadowy world. Hence, your good-aligned assassins :).

Hyooz

2010-01-12, 07:29 PM

I'm having issues making an interesting capstone for my Grammaton Cleric interesting. Any thoughts?

DracoDei

2010-01-12, 08:02 PM

"Frightening Charge" : Please provide a reference for where "Fearful Charge may be found.

"Death Moves Quick": Very nice way of stoping short of giving Pounce. Shouldn't this also apply to the mount's attacks? A technical quibble is that you can't make a full attack THEN do the movement but that option would be used much less. Still I would put it in for completeness. Would it be easiest way to state it is that you can make a full attack as a standard action under those conditions, but there might be some way to cheese that that I am not seeing. Might be nice to have an upgraded version later that allows you to spread the attacks out as you please along the movement. Maybe only if you have the Ride By Attack feat(but as part of the base ability, rather than as an upgrade)?

"Awaken Mount" : Flavorful. I am curious what the mechanical advantages would be, but I would leave it in regardless of if it is actually useful.

"Vampiric Hooves" Just begs for riding a dragon or other mount with a lot of attacks... but since it gives only 3 hitpoints max, and they don't stack, this is almost entirely about the extra damage.

"Undead Symbiosis" : Mostly just enhancing existing abilities that are probably already high enough they don't come up much at this time (maybe after you leave the class). Replacing Saves is where this really comes in handy (this only works when you are riding it, right?), makes this a capstone...

"Playing a knight of the grave" : Pretty much standard mounted combat stuff, right? Well, except for the part about interactions with other spellcasters... Except that a lot of the abilities focus on NOT charging, so recommending that as a blanket option isn't a good idea.

Quotes after the "Playing..." section seem a bit generic, but if the reader is low on imagination, I guess they would help.

You mention them serving as mercinaries, but why wouldn't some be parts of standing armies (mostly for highly expansionist lords and ladies)?

You also mention mobility, but how are they any more mobile than any other mounted combatant?

"alive today" might want to change to "alive (and undead) today.

I would like to see a feat that would let you summon cooler mounts (at the cost of extra HD, like how Druid's animal companions come in different tiers.

More later (perhaps).

Kallisti

2010-01-12, 08:52 PM

I'm trying to think up some more good flavor for the Ninja of the Golden Eclipse, at the behest of several reviews. Right now, I'm digging the idea of the group having splintered from the church for believing an unorthodox text about the Big Shiny. The main church of Pelor considers them so absolutely heretical that when asked, the usual response is "They are not Pelorites." Problem is, I don't want to go the "Pelor the Burning Hate" route with this, so I'm a little stumped.

So far I've gone through "The Golden Eclipse is metaphor for Pelor's death, a big bad beastie that will consume him utterly unless we stop it first," but that didn't seem heretical; and "The Golden Eclipse is Pelor's shadow-self, a dichotomous mirror that represents his dark (but not evil!) side," but I wanted to put that on the back burner.

Any other ideas? I've considered removing the heretic aspect, though that seemed to remove some of the fun, too.

They could just act without the authority of the Church. Any church would be pretty angry about a band of unauthorized, uncontrolled assassins running around murdering people in the name of their God.

Or perhaps the Golden Shadow represents the place for darkness, it's use, it's good side. For a church where darkness is effectively synonymous with everything their god stands against, a cult of assassins murdering in the name of Pelor and espousing the cirtues of a balance between light and darkness is pretty heretical.

Also, quick question: Djinn in Tonic, did you ever make more Fae lords for the Seiðkona of the Iron Bands?

Xallace

2010-01-12, 09:45 PM

They could just act without the authority of the Church. Any church would be pretty angry about a band of unauthorized, uncontrolled assassins running around murdering people in the name of their God.

See, that's what I was going for initially. Then a good number of critiques came in saying that wasn't fluffy enough, so in the interest of the contest I wanted to see what more could be done. But... I couldn't come up with anything better than "Pelor's church just doesn't like assassins, so these guys work outside the holy laws."

So... I'm not sure what to do.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-12, 10:42 PM

Ok, STARTING to review "Knight of the Grave" here...

Wow. This is a very extensive review. thanks. Minor fixes not quoting below just the major ones.

Overall flavor is good for a fairly standard image. Although traditionally the rider would ALSO be undead, but that is irrelevant and for all I know the base classes that would best lead into this PrC might give an undead appearance...

If one started as a dread necromancer one would get that undead appearance. I actually wanted that to be not mandatory since I thought it might be interesting to have an NPC or the like who is all armored up with an undead mount and then they take off their helm and look perfectly normal.

That particular ability is a bit miss-worded. For on thing it sounds like you can ditch a cantrip to cast Summon Undead II. It should require at least a 2nd level spell slot.

Good catch.

Also, the horse should probably arrive equipped, because riding a skeleton bare-back isn't my idea of a good idea. Even some barding might be nice at higher levels. I would consider giving bonus HD equal to the class level, rather than 1/2 class level... maybe even 1/2 CHARACTER level so it keeps pace even after you complete the class.

Hmm, I'd like to discourage low-level dips into the class. Possibly HD per class level and half for non-class level. That's probably not too powerful although a bit complicated.

I would strongly consider giving them "Share Spells" with a summoned mount.

Good point.

Could MAYBE be clearer that you get the bonus to ALL necromancy spells, even if they don't summon undead (not sure that there are any).

Clarified.

"Secrets of the Grave" COULD be read to imply that you don't get Spell Mastery for the spell added unless you already have Spell Mastery for at least one spell. This is because of the word "additional". I might say "If you have prepared casting, you may prepare the spell without the aid of a spellbook, as if you had if you had the feat Spell Mastery and it was one of the spells you had selected for that feat." That is probably too wordy, and the whole thing may be irrelevant, but there you go.

Yeah, that's a better phrasing.

Reduced Spell Failure helps make the character fit the mental image I have... The progression here for most characters (in case you hadn't figured it out and assuming they want 0% ASF is going to be: Bracers of Armor at 1st, Padded Armor at 2nd, Mithril Chain Shirt at 5th, and Mithril Breast-Plate at 8th.

Hmm, so that should be what percentages? Sorry, I've never been really good at figuring out ASF.

"Dealer of Sublime Death" - A pretty weak feat, given that most maneuvers don't scale with initiator level. I would CONSIDER saying that you CAN use it to learn maneuvers and stances, BUT that you lose access to any that you don't otherwise meet the initiator level requirement to learn when you are not so mounted. So you can't initiate them, but you can still prepare them. Refreshing such maneuvers while not so mounted is borderline to me.

That's a good point. I don't really see an issue with refreshing the maneuvers because if you can prepare them when not mounted, presumably you should be able to refresh since that's even simpler a behavior than preparing them.

I shall probably say more later.

Ok. I see your other post. I'll take a look at the points there in the morning. Thanks very much. This has been a very helpful critique. (And certainly much more extensive than mine of your class).

Kallisti

2010-01-13, 12:28 AM

Or perhaps the Golden Shadow represents the place for darkness, it's use, it's good side. For a church where darkness is effectively synonymous with everything their god stands against, a cult of assassins murdering in the name of Pelor and espousing the cirtues of a balance between light and darkness is pretty heretical.

Afraid this isn't much better either, sadly...Well, either you'll think of something or you won't. It doesn't really matter because Djinn always wins:smallwink:. And yet I always mentally give him second place...it's like people don't always agree with everything I say...weird.

ErrantX

2010-01-13, 12:52 AM

Afraid this isn't much better either, sadly...Well, either you'll think of something or you won't. It doesn't really matter because Djinn always wins:smallwink:. And yet I always mentally give him second place...it's like people don't always agree with everything I say...weird.

I wouldn't be so sure this time.

We have 20+ entries right now and still over half the month to finish them and prepare for possibly more.

I wanna see a lot of votes this contest. A bloody truck load of them. :smallamused:

-X

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-13, 12:15 PM

It doesn't really matter because Djinn always wins:smallwink:. And yet I always mentally give him second place...it's like people don't always agree with everything I say...weird.

:smallfrown:

Please don't rub it in...I feel bad enough about it already. I actually seriously considered (and am still considering) not entering/removing my entry from this month's contest because of it. I mean, I don't want to tell people to not vote for me, 'cause that's even worse (and getting votes always makes me feel warm and fuzzy), but...well...I just feel kinda bad about the whole thing.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-13, 12:21 PM

*Gives Djinn a hug*

I still think you should make a Harrowed PrC for one of these contests, if only because it'll get you to make those feats you promised me :p

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-13, 12:24 PM

*Gives Djinn a hug*

I still think you should make a Harrowed PrC for one of these contests, if only because it'll get you to make those feats you promised me :p

I concede, you heartless slave driver. When my entry is done, I'll get to work on some feats. :smallbiggrin:

ErrantX

2010-01-13, 12:30 PM

This contest has overwhelmed me, there are a lot of entries. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to critique them all. :( I will try to critique as many of them as I can though.

Just wow. Lots of new homebrewers in this contest.

-X

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-13, 12:32 PM

Yay! I'm a heartless slave-driver! I've never felt so LOVED :smallbiggrin:

DracoDei

2010-01-13, 12:54 PM

Considering allowing Leap Dragoons who come into the class with Mystic Cobra Maneuvers to replace the spellcasting abilities with full IL and limited progression of maneuvers known and readied, and maybe even gain a single stance (Perhaps only from Mystic Cobra, but maybe allow Shadow Hand, Devoted Defender, and/or Diamond Mind as well). Depending on the number of disciplines they get access to I might or might not also make them lose the item creation skills, otherwise they can still make items of those spells, they just can't prepare them.

What do people think of that?

DaTedinator

2010-01-13, 03:16 PM

:smallfrown:

Please don't rub it in...I feel bad enough about it already. I actually seriously considered (and am still considering) not entering/removing my entry from this month's contest because of it. I mean, I don't want to tell people to not vote for me, 'cause that's even worse (and getting votes always makes me feel warm and fuzzy), but...well...I just feel kinda bad about the whole thing.

Djinn and ErrantX, if either/both of you think that popularity of the person making the class affects things enough to skew votes, perhaps some manner of keeping who submitted what a secret could be used in the future? Like, everyone e-mails their entries to ErrantX, who posts them, then reveals the creators afterwards? It'd be a lot of work for you, ErrantX, but I'm just throwing ideas out there.

And please, don't take this as me being all, "Yeah, sheesh, Djinn, give everyone else a chance," because that's totally not how I mean it. :smallbiggrin: I've just been in a similar position as you, Djinn, and I know it can get really awkward.

DracoDei

2010-01-13, 03:19 PM

The major problem I see with that is that it makes the process of critique and revision that I see as the main benefits of these contests almost impossible.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-13, 03:20 PM

Djinn and ErrantX, if either/both of you think that popularity of the person making the class affects things enough to skew votes, perhaps some manner of keeping who submitted what a secret could be used in the future? Like, everyone e-mails their entries to ErrantX, who posts them, then reveals the creators afterwards? It'd be a lot of work for you, ErrantX, but I'm just throwing ideas out there.

And please, don't take this as me being all, "Yeah, sheesh, Djinn, give everyone else a chance," because that's totally not how I mean it. :smallbiggrin: I've just been in a similar position as you, Djinn, and I know it can get really awkward.

ErrantX and I actually discussed this when I raised my concerns to him...we determined that it would largely undermine the balancing and critique process, as responses would be difficult to give, and that that process was an important enough part of the contest (and, in my mind, one of the best parts of the contest) that we shouldn't compromise it by making people have to hide their work.

That, and people have very distinctive styles.

And, finally, I'm not sure if it's popularity skewing it, or I've just been on a roll...or both. I know I don't consider myself especially popular on these forums (at least outside of this contest, perhaps), but...well...I just have no idea. :smallfrown:

DracoDei

2010-01-13, 03:38 PM

One solution MIGHT be that a new account is created (like the one used for editing the homebrewer's compendium) and everyone uses it for making their posts and edits. Might run into problems with people knocking eachother offline (especially when things get down to the wire), and I don't know how the admins would feel about ErrantX giving out the username and password to anyone who PMs him...

DragoonWraith

2010-01-13, 03:56 PM

Personally, I really do think that Djinn wins because he does excellent work. Then again, I haven't been following these contests for very long.

I've actually gotten a lot of really positive feedback on the Bound (well, most of it's from Kallisti, but there've been some other people too!), so even if I don't win, this contest has done its job for me: I've gotten a lot of feedback and critique on my work, which is what I want.

ErrantX

2010-01-13, 03:59 PM

Xallace

2010-01-13, 04:47 PM

Hah, well, even if I can't make more intense fluff I feel like I stand a chance this time around (of course, votes will decide whether I'm right on that or not). I kinda put in a rushed entry last time, but this time I'm feelin' strong.

And no, Djinn: Don't take your entry out. You make really good stuff, even if it's not always to my taste. And besides that you shouldn't even feel bad about winning! It inspires people (well, me at least) to try even harder with each passing contest. If you dropped out of the running, I wouldn't be able to gloat at you when I finally kick your genie arse. :smallbiggrin:
For serious, there are absolutely no hard feelings.

Alright, so I think tomorrow, I'm gonna do a mass critique. Feels like that time again. Can't tonight, because Chem classes are unnecessarily long.

DracoDei

2010-01-13, 05:20 PM

Great! That should give me just about enough time to get the backbone of the history behind the class typed up.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-13, 05:28 PM

"Death Moves Quick": Very nice way of stoping short of giving Pounce. Shouldn't this also apply to the mount's attacks? A technical quibble is that you can't make a full attack THEN do the movement but that option would be used much less. Still I would put it in for completeness. Would it be easiest way to state it is that you can make a full attack as a standard action under those conditions, but there might be some way to cheese that that I am not seeing. Might be nice to have an upgraded version later that allows you to spread the attacks out as you please along the movement. Maybe only if you have the Ride By Attack feat(but as part of the base ability, rather than as an upgrade)?

Good point. Done.

"Awaken Mount" : Flavorful. I am curious what the mechanical advantages would be, but I would leave it in regardless of if it is actually useful.

I'm not aware of any actual mechanical advantage that one gets in this circumstance. The primary advantage of awakened entities is that they get some of their old intelligence score back (which doesn't matter here) and that they get their extraordinary abilities back if they are of a type of undead that would lose them (but horses don't have any extraordinary abilities to start with). They do get a +2 bonus to Turning also but that shouldn't matter much.

"Undead Symbiosis" : Mostly just enhancing existing abilities that are probably already high enough they don't come up much at this time (maybe after you leave the class). Replacing Saves is where this really comes in handy (this only works when you are riding it, right?), makes this a capstone...

Yes, that's more or less what was intended. Varsuvius isn't going to be disintegrating this undead horse. Good point about specifying when riding.

"Playing a knight of the grave" : Pretty much standard mounted combat stuff, right? Well, except for the part about interactions with other spellcasters... Except that a lot of the abilities focus on NOT charging, so recommending that as a blanket option isn't a good idea.

Quotes after the "Playing..." section seem a bit generic, but if the reader is low on imagination, I guess they would help.

You mention them serving as mercinaries, but why wouldn't some be parts of standing armies (mostly for highly expansionist lords and ladies)?

Yes. I mentioned that possibly briefly. I've expanded it.

You also mention mobility, but how are they any more mobile than any other mounted combatant?

Hmm, looks like something got lost at some point. Cavalry of the Dead was supposed to also give a movement bonus. Added back in.

I would like to see a feat that would let you summon cooler mounts (at the cost of extra HD, like how Druid's animal companions come in different tiers.

I'll think about it. That sort of thing might require careful balancing. An undead dire wolf for a mount would be pretty neat though.

Again, thanks very much for your input.

Kallisti

2010-01-13, 05:29 PM

:smallfrown:

Please don't rub it in...I feel bad enough about it already. I actually seriously considered (and am still considering) not entering/removing my entry from this month's contest because of it. I mean, I don't want to tell people to not vote for me, 'cause that's even worse (and getting votes always makes me feel warm and fuzzy), but...well...I just feel kinda bad about the whole thing.

Butbutbutbut...it was a sneaky compliment. You win because you do really good work. I recently went through the old threads looking for something to play, and yours has always won because it deserved it. I voted for somebody else's work because of a personal preference--I don't like the class your PrC was for, or yours was the best serious entry but somebody else's joke entry was hilarious or something--but you've always won on merit.

...please don't stop competing, I love reading your submissions.

I'm sorry. I totally didn't realize you might feel guilty about winning. That was...really thoughtless of me.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-13, 05:55 PM

I'm sorry. I totally didn't realize you might feel guilty about winning. That was...really thoughtless of me.

Eh, no worries. I'm probably just over sensitive about it...I have a truly phenomenal inferiority complex, so when I do well I really worry about how everyone else feels...

That said, let's get back to the topic on hand: competition! And, just to embrace this phenomena of me winning and offer some friendly incentive to take me down...

This will go to the first person to beat me by a margin of at least 25% of the votes my entry gets (minimum of a 2 vote lead required). I will add the winner's name and a Djinn-certified seal to the final product.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Djinn_in_Tonic/g3771.png?t=1263423699

Owrtho

2010-01-13, 11:14 PM

This will go to the first person to beat me by a margin of at least 25% of the votes my entry gets (minimum of a 2 vote lead required). I will add the winner's name and a Djinn-certified seal to the final product.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Djinn_in_Tonic/g3771.png?t=1263423699

...
It's so shiny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120197&posted=1#post6640394). I must have it!

Anyway, if anyone has time I'd like to see some more feedback on the ghost blade.

Owrtho

Hyooz

2010-01-13, 11:25 PM

I would also appreciate further feedback on the Grammaton Cleric PrC version.

I had no idea there was a base class version out there, and they're entirely different, so it shouldn't effect things too much.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-13, 11:31 PM

...
It's so shiny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120197&posted=1#post6640394). I must have it!

Anyway, if anyone has time I'd like to see some more feedback on the ghost blade.

Owrtho

Ok. Does the Ghost Life ability apply to all forms of death not just hit point damage? If so, that's an extremely powerful ability. If it only applies to hit poins you should say. Either way, I'd try to be explicit about it.

There's very little fluff filled out so there's not much to comment on there. It also makes it hard to see what exactly you are going for. I don't for example see why they need ranks in tumble but hopefully the fluff will explain that.

Owrtho

2010-01-13, 11:40 PM

Ghost life applies to all forms of death (though I should likely make it not apply to age related death).
The ranks in tumble are due to the idea that people wishing to become like a ghost would likely have practiced moving around without getting hit. After a certain point in the class though they no longer need worry.

I likely should try coming up with some fluff. About all I had when I came up with the class was the idea that it would be fun to make a class that has the ability to respond to an attack by ghosting through the opponent to the other side of them and then counterattack.

Owrtho

Golden-Esque

2010-01-13, 11:59 PM

Personally, I really do think that Djinn wins because he does excellent work. Then again, I haven't been following these contests for very long.

I agree, I think Djinn wins because his work is fun and flavorful. His descriptions and lore are great, and his writing style really puts you into his class's feel. You can just imagine how his characters fit into the world.

Latronis

2010-01-14, 12:09 AM

Eh, no worries. I'm probably just over sensitive about it...I have a truly phenomenal inferiority complex, so when I do well I really worry about how everyone else feels...

That said, let's get back to the topic on hand: competition! And, just to embrace this phenomena of me winning and offer some friendly incentive to take me down...

This will go to the first person to beat me by a margin of at least 25% of the votes my entry gets (minimum of a 2 vote lead required). I will add the winner's name and a Djinn-certified seal to the final product.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Djinn_in_Tonic/g3771.png?t=1263423699

That's awesome, I've never taken part in these things before but i wants it!

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 12:18 AM

That's awesome, I've never taken part in these things before but i wants it!

Then submit an entry, my good sir!

Latronis

2010-01-14, 12:27 AM

Someone hid the topic on me!

took me a good 2 minutes to find it!

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 12:45 AM

OK, starting from the top:
Narmy - Corrupted Slayer of Fiends
OK, first, I'm sorry to nit-pick grammar, but you misuse periods all over the place here. You have several subordinate, introductory clauses, which should be followed by a comma and lead into the rest of the sentence, but are instead followed by a period, as if they were their own sentence. This probably only bothers me, but it really is jarring for me as I try to read the class's fluff.

For example, this:

Although frowned upon and deemed evil by most who take sight or hear of a Corrupted Slayer of Fiends. They are not evil at heart.
Should be this:

Although frowned upon and deemed evil by most who take sight or hear of a Corrupted Slayer of Fiends, they are not evil at heart.
Also, in this case, the construction "take sight or hear of" is awkward. It should be "see or hear" or "take sight or sound of" (I guess?), mixing the two is weird.

Anyway, critique of the actual class:
Fluff: Demonspawn going after demons is not the most original of fluffs (off the top of my head, Dante from Devil May Cry, and he was hardly the first or the last), but that's not the end of the world; this kind of thing crops up because it's compelling. Certainly acceptable for a PrC.

Requirements: Probably should say "Must have fiendish heritage", unless you specifically want to exempt those who are descended from Yugoloths and the like. More concise, too. Other than that - you should include a reference for where Improved Iron Will comes from; I'm not familiar with that one. For the special requirement, well, you've got one of those half-sentences that should have a comma but has a period going on there, and also it would probably be easier to say your alignment becomes that of your ancestor, rather than trying to list the various options. Also, I'd avoid the verb "shift" here, since (at least personally), that makes me think you're moving towards that alignment, rather than automatically becoming it.

Skills: Well, this is Pathfinder specific; I'm not actually clear on the rules and whether or not that's acceptable. You should include the key ability modifier for each skill in parentheses. The list is also very short for a 4 + Int modifier class, I think.

Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: As a prestige class, Corrupted Slayers of Fiends gain proficiencies; stating that they are proficient in light armors, and more significantly, are not proficient in shields, is problematic if the entry class was proficient in shields - do they lose proficiency? Presumably not. Instead, say that they gain proficiency in light armor, if they do not already have it, but not shields. That said, it's somewhat unusual for a PrC to give proficiencies. Most don't. Considering that this is a martial class, it's furthermore probably unnecessary.

I don't know if you need to list proficiencies in natural attacks. Seems weird to, but whatever.

Inherited Aura: I like this from a fluff perspective, but ouch, that's hard in a black-and-white-alignment setting. Whatever, this is fitting and cool. But you have another of those wonky not-sentences here.

Detect Fiends: Demons or devils, but not other fiends? I think you may have thought that demons and devils are the only types of fiend, but that's not the case. You need to describe how this effect works. Do you automatically know where they are always, in any direction? Does it work if they're invisible, incorporeal, on the astral or shadow planes? Does it see through disguises, magical and/or mundane? Do they have to see the creature to know that it is a devil or demon, or do they just know it's there no matter what?

If this is just "any fiend in the area, you automatically know it's there and where it is," I think this is overpowered. Especially once it goes out to 120 ft. That's pretty much immunity to a fiend sneaking up on you. Never having a succubus trick you. Completely destroy a Hellcat's main ability. Just does not seem reasonable.

Finally, the table lists this at level 2. The text doesn't list a level, it just says Slayers can do this. That means all Slayers, even level 1 ones. You should specify that you get this at level 2. And to avoid confusion, move it after everything you get at level 1. Always list features in the same order they're listed in the table.

Foe of Fiends: You might as well just call this Favored Enemy: Fiends; that's what it is, and it can help Slayers out by allowing them to qualify for feats and PrCs that require the Favored Enemy class feature. Other than that, it's fitting.

Inherited Aspect: Shouldn't this be I, II, and III, if you get something on 1st, 2nd, and 6th? That would make more sense to me. Actually, better still would be Inherited Aspect (Claws), Inherited Aspect (Hide Claws), Inherited Aspect (Magic Claws, Wings). Finally, you should probably get two claw attacks, one for each arm...

Telepathy: Seems sort of odd, but whatever, it's balanced enough. Has the same problem as Detect Fiends, though, in that it does not list a level and is listed before you finish all the things you get at level 1.

Flesh of the Bloodline: Brute seems far and away the best here. By a lot. You get damage, AC, and DR. SR and Resistances are nice, but I'm not sure either is nice as even one of the three things that Brute gives.

Face Your Fears: Those bonuses are pretty strong, and I'm not sure how fitting they are. Seem kind of just thrown in there. Then again, when Paladins are just outright immune to fear, this is probably OK.

Fiendish Smite: OK, pretty standard stuff. Smite is weak, IMO, but that's whatever. But for the added effect: it's really confusing to say "while Smite is in effect" when you haven't even defined that it is anything other than an instantaneous effect (like other Smites) yet. Instead, just say "against any creature that the Slayer strikes with his Smite attack, he gains a Deflection bonus to his AC equal to his Charisma modifier, until that creature has died or the Slayer regains his uses of this ability". Also, do Slayers have to sleep to regain the ability? Pretty sure Paladins don't. This matters quite a bit for those who don't sleep (Warforged, for one)

Fiendish Binding: This seems reasonable enough. Cool, fitting ability.

Quote: The possessive of "blood" is "blood's", not "bloods".

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-14, 10:14 AM

...Wraith, I'm so sorry to tell you, but Narmy's entry has been disqualified. Repeatedly.

DracoDei

2010-01-14, 10:19 AM

I just finished the first draft(in the main post now, rather than the overflow placeholder post) of the "HISTORY" section for Leap Dragoon, as well as the "BECOMING A LEAP DRAGOON" section.

DragoonWraith: Make sure you don't miss those in your review. You don't have to say anything about them of course, just saying that if you had a single tab of the submissions open and didn't refresh it, you might miss where I inserted all that stuff.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 11:41 AM

...Wraith, I'm so sorry to tell you, but Narmy's entry has been disqualified. Repeatedly.
Interesting. Ah, well, the feedback's important nonetheless. Maybe I should PM it to him, though, then, since he may not be checking here.

ErrantX

2010-01-14, 11:44 AM

Interesting. Ah, well, the feedback's important nonetheless. Maybe I should PM it to him, though, then, since he may not be checking here.

Obviously not, as I've repeatedly asked him to take it down :P

-X

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 12:05 PM

I PMed it to him, and mentioned the DQ and that he should take it down.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 12:38 PM

OK, next one:
Xallace - Ninja of the Golden Eclipse
OK, I for one like the fluff on this class. You could add a bit more to it, but you're in the right direction. Give more information about why they're shunned by the rest of the Pelorites, what exactly they believe that is borderline heretical, what methods they use that are not sanctioned, etc.

Also, some more fluff under Becoming a Ninja of the Golden Eclipse is probably a good idea. How do they get initiated, what kinds of beliefs do they have, etc. Is your typical Ninja a recent ninja convert to the faith, or are these existing believers of Pelor who have taken their beliefs in a non-standard way? What kinds of training do the Ninjas undertake? That kind of thing.

Requirements: Where's True Believer from? Not familiar with it. Also, you should probably explicitly state that you need to believe in Pelor; True Believer (Pelor) presumably requires it, but just in case there's some shenanigans going on.

Skills: Looks as to be expected. Does Ninja normally get UMD? That's the only one where I considered that maybe you would want it.

Sacred Ki: Brilliant ability, I really like this. Makes this an exceptional dip, though, just fair warning. The belief requirement probably waives a lot of that.

Sacred Weapon Training: Another really sweet ability.

Radiant Dawn: Fitting and appropriate. Without Hide in Plain Light, though, that's going to be awkward for a few levels. Not really a problem, just saying.

Deathless Strike: My only concern here is confusion regarding the (Deathless) subtype. Since the Deathless are supposed to be Good, Positive Energy, Undead (as stupid as the concept is, IMO - should just let your regular old negative-energy undead be Good every now and then). Mechanically, this is appropriate and awesome.

Sudden Strike: Yay.

Mercy of Pelor: The ability to do nonlethal damage is fine. The immediate Coup de Grace... seems fine to me, but that's an ability that WotC has put some value on (why, I don't really know). Eh. I like it, anyway.

Morning Light: Why does this require two uses of Ki? Doesn't seem that powerful. Anyway, it's very solid, nice.

Brilliant Strike: It's kind of weird for bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage to suddenly become fire+divine, especially since fire is far more commonly resisted than weapon damage. I guess you'd use it against people with high DR, but really this seems kind of weird; I don't see it getting very much use. You should make it, at least, change the type of the entire attack instead of just the SS damage, since presumably you'd want to do that in the rare instances where you would want to use the ability.

Heavenly Swiftness: Nice, nice. I like this ability.

Illumination of the High Sun: This is awesome. See, this I could see as worth 2 uses of Ki. Dispelling darkness effects? Not so much. I really like this.

Advanced Sacred Weapons Training: Seems kind of unnecessary to say "once per round as a swift action" - you normally only get one swift action, anyway. I'd actually just make it a free action; I don't see this as worth burning up your Swift action for a round most of the time.

Hide in Plain Light: Whoo! This ability is incredible, obviously. I don't think it's overpowered, though, just awesome. This is why you play the class, methinks.

Scorching Day: This is fine, except your Caster Level is going to be very low. Either ditch the limit of only one per use of Radiant Sun, or make the Caster Level higher somehow, I think.

All-Seeing Sun: Oh, this is awesome. Very nice, very nice. I actually wonder if this wouldn't be a bit OP, though... with TWF and a reasonable Wis (18 would not be hard by this level), you could make sixteen attacks per round with a single shuriken. That's quite a lot. I dunno. Compared to a Tier 1 caster? Nothing, don't worry about it. Compared to other Ninja PrCs? This seems rather strong. Probably more a problem with the Ninja than your class, but I tend to try to have PrCs be reasonably balanced with their logical entry.

Blessed Insight: Looks good, very reasonable.

Burning Dusk: Fitting, though probably rarely used. I like it, though.

Sacred Weapon Mastery: This is awesome, but I'm kind of confused as to how this all works out. I suppose you're TWF'ing with a mace and a shuriken? I'm a bit confused, is all.

Shining Eclipse: This is excellent. Very, very nice capstone.

In the World Fluff: All looks good, I like it. Though I didn't realize that the Ninjas were publicly priests; you should say that in the Becoming a Ninja of the Golden Eclipse section or the intro, I think.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 01:06 PM

Next!
Kira the 5th - Lancer
Whee, I love me a Lancer (this should not be surprising, given my name, though the Dragoon bit does not come from Final Fantasy [nor StarCraft]). Fluff is solid, nice. The bit about Barbarians rarely joining... eh. Rage doesn't mean not using tactics. Not sure about that.

Requirements: I don't like the Alignment restriction. It seems unnecessary and a bit arbitrary. I get what you're going for, but like I said, tactical thinking is not necessarily non-chaotic. Chaotic characters are not supposed to be utterly random; Chaotic Stupid is a bad thing. For a pure martial class, I don't think any alignment requirement is fitting.

Class Skills: OK, personally, the only classes that should have 2+Int skills are Int-based casters. I know that's now how things actually go, but I'm just saying. That's brutal. 4+Int would not be out of line, and would really be much nicer to players. Then again, I'd make Fighters get 4+Int also. As for the class skill list, having the .... in there is weird, but the list seems fine.

Improved Short Haft: Excellent, perfect, etc. Yes, this is what the class should have. Prime dipping material, but frankly I consider that a good thing here.

Anti-Charge Tactics: I'm not sure if the game makes a technical distinction about what is and is not a polearm. Still, this is decent. Frankly, with only this is makes 2nd level a bit dull.

Insightful Attack: Nice. Bizarre how common this is (much easier to get Int to damage than Dex to damage), but it's a good feature and makes sense for the fluff.

Improved Flanking Tactics: Very nice and fitting. I like this.

Lance Defense: Shouldn't this be a Shield bonus, since you're blocking with it? As is, it would stack with a Buckler if they have Improved Buckler Defense... which is not really the end of the world, but was that intentional? Other than that, seems fine.

Escape Interrupt: Nice, but I imagine the Lancer's going to have a hard time making that Sense Motive check against dedicated Tumblers. Maybe a feature to add Int to Sense Motive for this purpose? Would help MAD.

Piercing Spear: Nice, nice.

Anti-Charge Mastery: Ooh, very nice.

Improved Piercing Spear: I'd just say that it ignores Armor and Shield bonuses to AC, rather than that it gets the Brilliant Energy enhancement. One, the Brilliant Energy enhancement has some drawbacks that don't seem necessary (especially when you can choose when to use it), and two, it makes this a rather supernatural (as in, not just skill but magic, rather than Su versus Ex) ability, which does not seem fitting.

Heaven Piercing Strike: Awesome! Though you might want to try to work the jumping thing in sooner. Also, maybe the Lancer can land on the enemy, polearm pointing straight down? Would to a great deal of damage, methinks.

Ultimate Pikeman: Very powerful, well, the reach bit is, anyway. You should specify, though, whether or not they keep the ability to strike those 10 ft. away.

Overall: Very nice, but it seems a little lean. Over ten levels, you get some nice abilities, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to get a little more. One suggestion is to work in a jumping attack a little earlier, to progress up to Heaven Piercing Strike. But overall I like this, and you hit the major notes on what a polearm user needs.

The other thing to consider is maybe offering a few maneuvers from the Mystic Cobra discipline.

Playing a Lancer: All looks good, though I think you might reconsider suggesting that anyone take more than 2, 4, or 6 levels of Fighter...

Lancers in the World: All looks good. Again, not really sure why Evil Lancers would be all that unusual; Devils, after all, are quite focused on teamwork as a way to power.

boomwolf

2010-01-14, 01:18 PM

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-14, 01:20 PM

*Heroically prevents Wraith from triple-posting*

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 01:33 PM

*Heroically prevents Wraith from triple-posting*

Sadly, an equally heroic Ninja has stolen the honor. :smalltongue:

ErrantX

2010-01-14, 01:34 PM

Sadly, an equally heroic Ninja has stolen the honor. :smalltongue:

Win.

Also, I love that pic Djinn, that's an awesome Trophy. Topple the mighty Djinn In Tonic and get a free pic! Awesome.

-X

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-14, 01:39 PM

*Will win that trophy if he has to pry it from his competitor's cold, dead hands*

Guess who doesn't **** around? ~_^

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 01:53 PM

Also, I love that pic Djinn, that's an awesome Trophy. Topple the mighty Djinn In Tonic and get a free pic! Awesome.

Two free pics, actually. A signature sized one cleared for permanent display, and a spoiler-sized on if you prefer.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Djinn_in_Tonic/flowRoot3608-02-9-1-1.png?t=1263495660

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Djinn_in_Tonic/flowRoot3608-02-9-1-21.png?t=1263495661

Obviously with my own name to prevent someone undeserving snatching it for themselves. :smalltongue:

Glimbur

2010-01-14, 01:56 PM

No comments on my swordsman yet? balance? flavor? is it even badass?

And did Owrtho STEAL my idea? it even has the same name!

Anyways, I think I should consider it an honor that one uses my own ideas as his contest submission.

When I read "provoke", it makes me think of provoking an attack of opportunity. Perhaps "incite" or even "taunt" instead?

Spending style points looks like it should generally be a free action, it might help to specify that.

Insult to Injury: Did you mean goad, provoke, feint and demoralize, or did you mean to use an 'or' there?

Goad is also already a feat, for the effect of making them too angry to fight well, try "incense" or "infuriate".

Mechanically, it seems kind of weak. I'd put Cha to hit instead of Str as about a third or fourth level ability, with no expenditure of style points. It would be cool if there were new maneuvers you could use via style points instead of just spending them to get plusses to various things. For example, opposed Cha checks for a disarm, daze with a Taunt check, other unusual things.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-14, 01:56 PM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 02:08 PM

Y'know Djinn, this is another one of those cases where, given a wide-open theme, we come up with concepts that have an identical root (the Void, in this case) but completely different interpretations. Remember that monster contest, when you had the Unspoken Chorus and I made the Daughters of Silence? Or our ideas in the last contest for deal-based abilities? The manner in which our minds work in such dissimilar similarity is eerie.

Yeah...I'm unsure as to why this is, because I know that I'm not taking ideas from you (except possible subconsciously), and I'm also positive that the reverse is true as well. Chalk it up to us secretly being the same person, I suppose. :smallbiggrin:

That's why we work well together though...we come up with two different interpretations of the exact same idea, and can then bounce them off each other. If ever there's a tag-team PrC contest...well...we will destroy everything. :smallbiggrin:

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-14, 02:13 PM

The only thing I have to say to that is:

Your future is in good hands.

Now, out of sheer curiosity, what would the Enlightened Masters of the Inner Void think of the Voidblades? Here, surely, is the Void made manifest in beings not devoted to their philosiphy and (undoubtably harsh) training regimen. For their end of things, Voidblades would likely be nervous and untrusting; the Masters are, from their point of view, playing with fire, and the Voidblades don't want to be there when things go boom in a big way.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 02:20 PM

Now, out of sheer curiosity, what would the Enlightened Masters of the Inner Void think of the Voidblades? Here, surely, is the Void made manifest in beings not devoted to their philosiphy and (undoubtably harsh) training regimen. For their end of things, Voidblades would likely be nervous and untrusting; the Masters are, from their point of view, playing with fire, and the Voidblades don't want to be there when things go boom in a big way.

Honestly? They'd be rather disdainful of the whole group, as the Voidblade use are, to them, using brute force to accomplish what is, in their minds, a highly delicate and focused process. Imagine a master dwarven architect watching a group of goblins building a bridge: it might work, but, even if it does, the architect has zero appreciation for the process and is rather annoyed at the result.

So I suppose they look at each other the same way: the Voidblades, with their attempts to work with something as all-consuming as the Void without the proper focus and training, are playing with fire...and the Masters don't want to be there when things go boom in a big way. :smalltongue:

Xallace

2010-01-14, 02:54 PM

Chalk it up to us secretly being the same person, I suppose. :smallbiggrin:

Now that you mention it, I've never seen you two in one room at the same time... :smallbiggrin:

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 03:16 PM

Now that you mention it, I've never seen you two in one room at the same time... :smallbiggrin:

Damn! Our secret is out!

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Djinn_in_Tonic/path5755-6.png

...this may be the single most terrifying thing I have ever created. :smalleek:

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-14, 03:41 PM

We should do a team-based PrC contest one of these months; complimentary classes, maybe, or Two Sides of the Same Coin.

Then again, we could just leave it up to F.A.T.E.

Arbitrarious

2010-01-14, 03:42 PM

I am having a quandary. I know the image I want to use. It's the Urza's Legacy card Knighthood by Kev Walker, however I can't seem to find a decently sized version. Does anyone happen to know a good Magic Card gallery where I can find a larger image. Google has failed me.

Any help is appreciated. If nothing turns up I'll just hit the game stores and buy/scan the card.

Owrtho

2010-01-14, 03:45 PM

And did Owrtho STEAL my idea? it even has the same name!

Anyways, I think I should consider it an honor that one uses my own ideas as his contest submission.

Actually I hadn't even realized you did something similar. But thinking back, wasn't yours a soul knife PRC? I'd originally planned to call mine a ghost slayer, but realized that there is a PRC of the same name in the Ghostwalk book (which is where a number of the better feats for my entry are which could make it somewhat confusing).

Also, I agree with the idea for a team-based contest.

Owrtho

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 03:52 PM

And it continues!
dangerprawn - Combat Opportunist
Heh, reminds me (in the fluff) of my Dualist. I like it. Well done. You should probably put something in the Becoming section about who becomes one and what they do to do it.

Requirements: Nice, I like these a lot. BAB requirements are low enough for Swordsages, skill requirements are low enough for people with few skills and those cross-class, the feat's obvious, and the maneuvers are sweet. Nice.

Skills: List seems a little short, but otherwise looks fine.

Maneuvers: Pretty standard, doesn't seem anything amiss. I sort of feel like only two disciplines is a bit low-ish, but there's plenty of precedent for it in ToB. The progression looks fine.

Reactive Reach: Interesting... very powerful. I could see a lot of people dipping for that. Full BAB makes this pretty easy, too. Outside of a dip, though, I don't think there are any problems. I'd consider possibly moving it back a few levels, though. I'm all for useful dips, but this is a rather significant bonus for just one level.

Baffling Combatant: "showing her enemy her deceptive positioning"? That sounds weird, sounds almost like she's giving the trick away. Anyway, that's just fluff. I'd combine the lines "By making a special Sleight of Hand check she may perform the listed actions without provoking an attack of opportunity, regardless of whether her opponents Spot checks surpasses her Sleight of Hand check. If the combat opportunist makes a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check she is able to perform these actions without provoking an attack of oportunity." into "By making a special Sleight of Hand check (DC 20), she may perform the listed actions without provoking an attack of opportunity," I don't think you need to mention their Spot check, since you said it had a flat DC, not an opposed roll.

At any rate, the list looks fine, eliminates the need for a lot of dumb feats (but doesn't make them useless), and is all around solid. Good ability. Again, though, you are giving a lot on level 1.

Missed Opportunity: I like it, but I think the description could use clarification. Does it count as any of the schools she uses? Does she need to be able to reach her opponent, or anything of the sort?

Accelerated Tumbling: Simple, fitting, useful. I'll call this good.

Evasion: You could just say "As the Rogue feature", if you wanted. But you don't have to and it's fine as-is.

Strike Without Warning: I like it.

Opportunity Knocks Twice: Solid, actually quite powerful. But fitting.

Skilled Opportunist: You have a typo there, "opponenets" should be "opponent's". Does this stack with the relevant Improved feats? If so... that's pretty powerful... but if not, then those feats have now been made pretty useless. Still, it fits. 5th level has a lot going for it, though.

Forge Opportunity: Awesome, I like this.

Skill Mastery: Would make sense for this to work on Escape Artist, too.

Stand Still: Great feat, my only concern is that such a character likely would have liked to have already taken it.

Improved Evasion: As the Rogue, fitting and sensible.

Stunning Retort: Nice, I like this.

Chasing Opportunity: Whoa. OK, it's a capstone, you're level 15... OK, I think it's probably OK. But wow, is that powerful.

Overall: You get a lot of stuff here. As a whole, it's probably not too much, but it is a lot. Plus maneuvers. Eh... Actually, it might be too much. In particular, at levels 1 and 5, you get two abilities each that are both very powerful. I think you should definitely consider spreading those out a little more. Another feat requirement would not go amiss, especially something that isn't as "I want that anyway" as Combat Reflexes.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-14, 03:56 PM

*Heroically prevents a double-post*

dawnsolara

2010-01-14, 04:34 PM

I've added three new feats to the bottom of my class, and changed the penalties for losing a Bonded Mount, as suggested. I'm also trying to streamline the class abilities, without leaving too many gaping holes for infinite loops or abuse (since I'm an optimizer, I can get rather picky about holes). Any ideas on that, or are the class abilities not too lengthy and complicated?

Sample NPC is partially up, and fluff is slowly going up.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 05:33 PM

Oh, ErrantX, I just noticed something: in the example class section, for the CLASS NAME IN THE WORLD bit, you say "how your class is persevered" - that should be "perceived".

DracoDei

2010-01-14, 05:57 PM

dangerprawn and/or DragoonWraith: It is "Combat Opportunist", but I like your name better.

Still continuing to get as much edited in as possible before Dragoon Wraith reviews mine...

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 06:49 PM

Fixed it. No idea where I got "Canny Opportunist" from.

Kallisti

2010-01-14, 06:58 PM

Enlightened Master of the Inner Void

"You sit within your tower, your guards around you, weapons drawn, ready to leap into action at the slightest noise. You claim that nothing can defeat you. Yet their ears will not hear my footsteps, and their eyes will not see me pass. Your walls, iron though they be, will not hinder my progress. I say this to you, who claim that nothing can defeat you..."

"...I say that I am he who is One with Nothing. Thus will you prove correct."

-Words whispered into the ear of Okanu mak Ilmar, Warlord of the Golden Spire, moments before he was inexplicably struck dead in a room full of armed guards.
Nice. A little melodramatic, but it works.
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6605/rszsplittingtheskyintwo.jpg
...ooh, shiny. You drew this? Nice.
Kenjin al Kah, an Enlightened Master of the Inner Void, erupts amongst his foes in a glorious Chakra Flooding Resurgence

*****

There exists a space outside of time, space, and even reality. Called the Void, it is an anathema to existence, representing nothing more nor less than the very absence of being. Within it nothing moves, nothing grows, and nothing dies: it is forever in perfect harmony.

For a living being to touch the Void means nothing but complete and utter destruction. Yet for all that the Void is an anathema to everything in our physical realm, it can exist within the mind of those strong enough to contain it. Through force of will, rigorous training, and long hours of meditation, it is possible to push the mind past mortal concerns and into the quiet, empty tranquility of the Void.

For some, it transcends even that. To those who have truly mastered the art of achieving Shunya, the state of Oneness with Nothing, the gap between the mental and metaphysical Void begins to shrink. Proper meditative techniques can bring the Void into the mind of the enlightened, channeling it as a weapon, or even entering it and becoming One with Nothing in both body and soul.

These are the Enlightened Masters of the Inner Void, and damned indeed is the uninitiated who is unfortunate enough to brush up against a Void beyond their mind's ability to comprehend, let alone contain...

BECOMING AN ENLIGHTENED MASTER OF THE INNER VOID
Enlightened Masters of the Inner Void are almost always either disciples of other masters or students of monasteries devoted to the arts. Yet exceptions do exist: those of sufficiently strong will often discover the focusing energies of the Void, and of those a rare few manage to achieve Shunya with no outside intervention.

One unifying trait, however, is that all Enlightened Masters of the Inner Void have had some Ninja training, whether self-taught or apprenticed to a master or monastery. Only those who already are able to draw upon their inner power to fade from the world can achieve such a closeness to the emptiness of the Void, and disappear into it so easily.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Feats: Iron Will, Psionic Meditation, Wild Talent
Class Abilities: Ki Power, Ghost Step, Ghost Strike
Skills: Autohypnosis 5 ranks, Concentration 11 ranks
Special: Must have spent at least one full, uninterrupted week in meditation, with no pauses even for sleep, food, or water.

Class Skills
The Enlightened Master of the Inner Void's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + Intelligence

Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Absence Overflows, Meditation of Oblivion's Edge

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Empty Footsteps of the Void Wraith, Sudden Strike +1d6

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Sunyata's Lingering Caress, Chakra Flooding Resurgence

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Meditation of the Silent Echo

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Here Stands Naught, Sudden Strike +2d6

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|Meditation of the Worldblind Shroud

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|Sudden Strike +3d6

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|Class Ability

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|Meditation of the Empty Soul[/table]

Weapon Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.
Put all the different class abilities in here!
Should probably have the stock "no proficiencies" line. Hell, ErrantX might want to add that to the template, since very few PrCs grant proficiencies and when they do that's a pretty significant feature.
Empty Footsteps of the Void Wraith (Su): When an Enlightened Master of the Inner Void uses her Ghost Step ability, she wraps herself in the emptiness of the spiritual void, achieving a perfect state of meditation. Her physical form is transcended by harmony with nothingness, and she all but vanishes from the material realm. When using the Ghost Step ability, you may choose to also use the Empty Footsteps of the Void Wraith ability.

While using Empty Footsteps of the Void Wraith, you gain immunity to all spells, effects, obstacles, and damage while invisible, and you cannot be perceived by anything but the senses of divine beings. All spells and effects currently affecting you have their effects removed for the duration of your invisibility (this time counts normally against their duration), and retake effect upon your reappearance. You may move through objects as if incorporeal, although you only retain your normal movement modes: an Enlightened Master of the Inner Void without a fly speed is still limited by the location of the ground and the limits of her jumping speed, although she could jump through a ceiling if she desired. Finally, you may attack material creatures as if you were both corporeal and material while using your Ghost Step ability.

Once you have used Empty Footsteps of the Void Wraith, you may not use the ability again for one full round.
Wow...that's very, very powerful. Especially since you'd be getting this at 2nd, which could be as early as 10th character level. Total immunity to being perceived, total damage immunity, incorporealness, and the ability to attack material creatures. This feels like a capstone. If you removed the ability to attack material creatures, or delayed it until later in the class, that'd be a lot more balanced. It'd still be powerful, though, but not broken as all hell.
Chakra Flooding Resurgence (Su): When an Enlightened Master of the Inner Void steps out of a Ghost Step and rejoins the world of material beings, she may, through strength of will, pull the energies of the spiritual void along with her and cast them amongst her foes. As a free action, an Enlightened Master of the Inner Void may choose to end her Ghost Step (or may have it expire normally). When she returns to the physical realm, she may choose to trigger a Chakra Flooding Resurgence. If she does so, all foes within 20 feet who possess an intelligence score must succeed on a Will saving throw (DC 10 + the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void's class level + the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void's Wisdom modifier). Failure indicates that the opponent in question is dazed for 1 round.

Once you have used Chakra Flooding Resurgence, you may not use your Ghost Step ability for one full round.
Not bad. A pretty cool power.
Sunyata's Lingering Caress (Su): As an Enlightened Master of the Inner Void steps forth from the void itself, a fragment of Sunyata, or the spiritual emptiness, envelopes her even as the energies ravage her foes. For one full round following the use of the Empty Footsteps of the Void Wraith ability, the Enlightened Master of the Inner Void gains immunity to negative energy effects, ability damage, ability drain, death effects, and energy drain. Additionally, all attacks against her during this time suffer a 50% miss chance.
I like it. It's pretty powerful, but comes late-ish, so it works.
Here Stands Naught (Su): By focusing her ki energies, an Enlightened Master of the Inner Void can briefly ignore the restraints of the material world, allowing what might have been a grievous injury to slide through a facade of void energies. As an immediate action, you may expend your Psionic Focus to negate the effect of a single attack or spell that would have affected you. You may use this ability before the attack roll is resolved or before the saving throw (or damage) is rolled.
This seems pretty abusable, since there are a lot of ways to regain focus, but you can only refocus on your turn, so I guess you'd need to be using cheese anyway to abuse it. Still, it's pretty powerful.
PLAYING AN ENLIGHTENED MASTER OF THE INNER VOID
Brief description on how to play the class you are designing.
Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat.
Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power.
Resources: What resources might a member of this PrC be able to draw on..

ENLIGHTENED MASTERS OF THE INNER VOID IN THE WORLD
A quote of somebody else talking about your class!

A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world.
Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class.
Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class).
Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards.

NPC Reaction
This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class.

ENLIGHTENED MASTERS OF THE INNER VOID IN THE GAME
This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically.
Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting.
Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class.
Red pen are my comments, obviously.

Good work so far. I like the flavor a lot.

Golden-Esque

2010-01-14, 07:00 PM

Fixed it. No idea where I got "Canny Opportunist" from.

... Canned Djinn? Now with more unnatural preservatives.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 07:03 PM

Red pen are my comments, obviously.

Good work so far. I like the flavor a lot.

Thanks! You made a lot of good comments.

Sadly, the picture was not mine. I'm nowhere near that good. :smallfrown:

I think Empty Footsteps of the Void Wraith will stay though. The Ninja needs the boost in a major way, and it is a limited number of times per day, and only every other round if you do want to burn through your daily uses like candy.

Owrtho

2010-01-14, 07:22 PM

Not sure if I asked this before, but can they walk up the inside of walls while using that ability?

Owrtho

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 07:24 PM

Not sure if I asked this before, but can they walk up the inside of walls while using that ability?

Owrtho

:smalleek:

Um...

...I suppose? Didn't think of it that way...

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 07:26 PM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 07:33 PM

I tend to agree, that's too much, too early. If some of those were spread out over the levels, that would be more reasonable. I'm not familiar with the Ninja, though - do the requirements require eight levels of Ninja? How long does Ghost Step last for - Footsteps doesn't list a duration, so I assume it lasts as long?

Ghost Step lasts one round. You gain 1/2 Ninja level + Wisdom modifier uses per day.

And the entry requirements require 8 full levels of Ninja.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 07:44 PM

You gain 1/2 Ninja level per day? Jesus, what were they thinking...

Does Enlightened Master stack with Ninja for daily uses?

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 07:47 PM

You gain 1/2 Ninja level per day? Jesus, what were they thinking...

Does Enlightened Master stack with Ninja for daily uses?

It either stacks or gives a flat 1 use/day/level. Not sure which yet.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 07:50 PM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 07:51 PM

Still, even if for 4 or 5 rounds, you're talking about complete immunity, absolute ability to ignore obstacles, and being utterly impossible to detect. That seems like far too many "No." buttons, if you ask me.

Fair enough. Just to check though...it's to much even if it's ever other round at the most?

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 08:01 PM

Oh, that's true. It might be hard to do very much in one round. Hmm...

DracoDei

2010-01-14, 08:01 PM

If you think that ability is too powerful, I would be interested(when you get to me) in your opinion on how it stacks up against the 2nd level version of my Leap Attack ability, Leap Attack(Ethereal), which can be used at-will. Perhaps also the 5th level version, since that is where you start to be REALLY hard to get at for that round.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 08:05 PM

Oh, that's true. It might be hard to do very much in one round. Hmm...

Yeah...all it does is buy you a round of ignoring debuffs, moving undetected (no AoOs, and following/perceiving you is difficult), and not getting attacked. Next round anything that's not stunned from your Chakra Flooding Resurgence is gunning for you.

Also, remember that this is at the level of Improved Invisibility, Blur, Displacement, and similar spells. You're also not a damage machine, as your Sudden Strike is nerfed a bit, and it in and of itself is a nerfed Sneak Attack.

Xallace

2010-01-14, 08:18 PM

We should do a team-based PrC contest one of these months; complimentary classes, maybe, or Two Sides of the Same Coin.

Well, next month is St. Vally's Day. What better way to honor it than with PrCs that mesh?

I like it. I say go. Now I just need a partner.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-14, 08:23 PM

Well, next month is St. Vally's Day. What better way to honor it than with PrCs that mesh?

I like it. I say go. Now I just need a partner.

PERFECT.

Lord Gareth, will you be my Valentine? :smalltongue:

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 08:35 PM

Moar! This one's incomplete, but I'll critique what's there.
Pie Guy - Poison Blade
You've got an extraneous [/color] tag on your title. Just sayin'.

The Becoming... section spells out the fluff nicely, but you should give some fluff in the intro, too. Or at least eliminate the instruction text that ErrantX put there.

As for the fluff itself - it makes sense. A decent poison-using build would be interesting.

Skills: Well, you need to fill this in. Same comment about 2+Int skills as above: I don't like it unless you're talking about a Wizard.

Hit Dice: d8? Seems low for any martial class. Sure, they're dastardly, but they're not exactly stealthy, are they?

Basic Poison: You don't get enough of these, and you can't use them often enough. At best, you're applying one per round, and losing your full attack to do it. Big ouch. Ability damage is good, but there are better ways to do it, that don't require what this does. One poison per round, maybe OK, but it should be stronger and you should still be able to get your iterative attacks. Better would be a poison that does 1 ability damage, but could be used on every attack in a TWF full attack. That would get interesting.

Poison Use: Well, it's the standard.

Quick Apply: So... why not just make this the default, if you're giving it at 2?

Annd... that's it. OK, you should finish your class.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-14, 09:09 PM

OK, that one hardly counted. Moar!
Random person - Dynamist
Sprinted for a full week? Well, that sounds promising, what are we waiting for?[/Avi] Anyway, sweet. Seems to me that ungodly fast characters are underrepresented in 3.5. I like this one.

Requirements: +6 BAB? May I ask why? I mean, OK, I guess its not really any harder for a 3/4 BAB character than a full BAB character, relatively speaking (an extra level each), but it is unusual. *shrug* Three feats is an awful lot, especially Run and Dodge. I'd consider dropping Dodge, personally.

Skills: My, that's a short list. And with 2+Int, I guess that's fitting, but I don't like 2+Int, as I've said several times. *shrug* I'd do 4+Int and more class skills, personally. Though I realize this is more consistent with other classes in 3.5. Balance, at the least, would make a lot of sense.

Fast Movement: And boy do they get a lot of it. Which makes sense and is fitting. Good.

Pounce: All for it, good thing. No worries about dips with those feat requirements, either.

Sprint: Should probably say "cannot be fatigued or exhausted" instead of "fatigued or worse" - exhausted is not actually considered a "worse state of tiredness" than fatigue, the way frightened and panicked are specifically worse versions of each other. Other than that, wow, that's really fast. Ten times your already super-high move speed? Combine with Jump and various feats that increase your damage on jumps (there are several), and that could get silly... I'm not sure about that one, to be honest.

Evasion: Appropriate and fitting.

Mobility: Solid, makes sense. If you ditch the Dodge prereq, I'd actually give Mobility as a bonus feat even without Dodge, personally.

Additional Attack: So TWF with a single weapon? Kinda cool. Plus the opportunity to actually TWF. Pretty powerful, but not overly so. Tis cool.

Enhanced Speed: Oh wow, this seems really good. I'm going to be honest, though, I'm not familiar enough with high level play to know how important this is.

Quick Mind: Neat, I like this.

Improved Evasion: Right, fitting, makes sense.

Speed Burst: This is disgusting in gestalt where you can be a spellcaster as well as Dynamist, but outside of that this is fine, I think.

Improved Pounce: This is awesome and fitting. I like this a lot. This is called Supreme Pounce in the table though, you should fix that.

Unbelievable Speed: Two Sprint actions in one round? Sprint doesn't have an associated action, you just "are sprinting" like a Barbarian "is raging", as far as I can tell. What does this mean?

Overall: It seems like a non-magical Swiftblade. Which is awesome. Good job.

Playing a... Err... what Momentum ability? I think you may have renamed some things after you wrote this.

In the World: Cool. Though the quote's a little cheesy, it all works out nice enough.

DracoDei

2010-01-14, 11:57 PM

I am wondering if their is a better place for the history section than where I put it... not sure where that would be though...

Hyooz

2010-01-15, 12:27 AM

I think I'm finally getting to a point where I am mostly happy with my class. I mean, I'll probably fill in more flavor as time goes on, but mechanically, I'm pretty pleased with the way it looks.

Golden-Esque

2010-01-15, 01:12 AM

My only real concern at this point is not getting sued by Dracodei for making the sample character a Mephfolk for my own amusement :[.

In other news, I'm happy with the fluff and mechanics of the White Lion Knight, so I'm just gonna keep sitting here and twiddling my thumbs until someone offers a critique or its voting season.
**Tips long-brimmed hat over eyes**

DracoDei

2010-01-15, 01:49 AM

My only real concern at this point is not getting sued by Dracodei for making the sample character a Mephfolk for my own amusement :[.
Sue you? I am highly complimented!

boomwolf

2010-01-15, 04:38 AM

When I read "provoke", it makes me think of provoking an attack of opportunity. Perhaps "incite" or even "taunt" instead?

Spending style points looks like it should generally be a free action, it might help to specify that.

Insult to Injury: Did you mean goad, provoke, feint and demoralize, or did you mean to use an 'or' there?

Goad is also already a feat, for the effect of making them too angry to fight well, try "incense" or "infuriate".

Mechanically, it seems kind of weak. I'd put Cha to hit instead of Str as about a third or fourth level ability, with no expenditure of style points. It would be cool if there were new maneuvers you could use via style points instead of just spending them to get plusses to various things. For example, opposed Cha checks for a disarm, daze with a Taunt check, other unusual things.

Yes, you are right, a few renaming might be in order.
Maybe Irritate instead of Provoke and Distract instead of Goad?

Style points usage IS a free action. good to specify that.

Cha instead Str to hit will kina remove the whole "weapon finesse" requirement from being logical at all. but I did made it an addition at seventh level. might want to take it a few levels down. considering it now.

Insult to injury means you can make one of the following. the and was a mistake.

Gave it a bit of a power up to some abilities (4th, 5th and 9th level abilities), and made others a bit clearer and easier to understand.

New abilities are in order. and the daze is a GREAT idea. it WILL be used.

Actually I hadn't even realized you did something similar. But thinking back, wasn't yours a soul knife PRC? I'd originally planned to call mine a ghost slayer, but realized that there is a PRC of the same name in the Ghostwalk book (which is where a number of the better feats for my entry are which could make it somewhat confusing).

Also, I agree with the idea for a team-based contest.

Didn't actually made one but I wrote down in the chat topic:

Hummm...
I CAN do a tie-in skill right?
Because I am considering to finish my work on the "taunt" skill, and make the Dashing Swordsmen based off on it. (charisma IS the most important ability score!)

If not-then I got two options:
Ghostblade-leaves his body behind and charges in as a spirit
Thunder Warrior-a gish with a focus on lightning attacks.

Not a pure steal per see, but that's and Idea I had as well. even with the same name.
Great minds think alike? or maybe you read it, forgot, and your subconscious gave it to you as your own idea?

BTW-I also agree on the next contest being a teamworkish contest. I do believe we have yet to do that, and official sources as so few of these.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-15, 10:32 AM

PERFECT.

Lord Gareth, will you be my Valentine? :smalltongue:

*Blushes Prettily*

Oh dear heart, of course I will be your Valentine.

I am highly secure in my manhood

DracoDei

2010-01-15, 11:37 AM

Pie Guy - You might want to take a look at BOTH PrCs (and maybe some of the surrounding discussion), in THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4889524#post4889524) thread.

Arbitrarious

2010-01-15, 11:59 AM

Well I'm rewriting the class. It was too complex mechanically and has strayed from the theme I had originally set out for. I'm still using the same concept, but I think the new version will be truer to the intent.

boomwolf

2010-01-15, 03:39 PM

*Sigh*

Between gareth and djinn I don't know if I even stand a chance in this one.

Back to my own attempt at winning this:
Added another ability, renamed Provoke and Goad to Irritate and Distract in order to avoid terminology problems with other preexisting abilities.
Added a bit more fluff around, still working on the notable NPCs and sample encounter.

Anyways, I would like to raise back an old question that might become necessary now that we have many contestants-should one be allowed to vote for himself?

I personally vote for a no here.

I mean-we got freaking 19 legal entries! (and some more that is not legal/unfinished)

ErrantX

2010-01-15, 03:46 PM

Anyways, I would like to raise back an old question that might become necessary now that we have many contestants-should one be allowed to vote for himself?

I personally vote for a no here.

As much as I normally think the smaller contests we've had in the past people have voted for the class they felt was best, even if it was not theirs, in this contest... I'm actually becoming inclined to agree. You bring up a good point Boomwolf. What say the rest of you?

JoshuaZ

2010-01-15, 04:07 PM

As much as I normally think the smaller contests we've had in the past people have voted for the class they felt was best, even if it was not theirs, in this contest... I'm actually becoming inclined to agree. You bring up a good point Boomwolf. What say the rest of you?

I don't have any strong opinion about that either way. I suspect that even given the large number of people the total vote set may not be proportionally larger so the restriction still makes sense. But that's not a strong argument.

I do think that it is more important for us decide in advance if we are going to have some sort of run-off system and if so, how it will be run.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-01-15, 04:10 PM

DaTedinator

2010-01-15, 07:20 PM

I'm against voting for your own work, for pretty much all the same reasons already listed, especially when we've got so many contestants.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-15, 07:31 PM

I feel like a win means more if it's from your fellow 'brewers, so I think it's better to have us vote for not-our-own.

Arbitrarious

2010-01-15, 10:17 PM

I'm gonna say no self voting. It just feels like it's in bad taste.

Vaynor

2010-01-15, 10:33 PM

I think self voting is ok if you truly believe yours to be the best entry.

DracoDei

2010-01-16, 01:01 AM

Have been tweaking some of the the Leap Dragoon spells to be closer to Freya's abilities in the game... not sure if this is a good thing... I might go ahead and do White Wind as a 3rd level that restores one 1st or 0th level spell, 1 or 2 powerpoints, or readies (and, if necessary, grants) a single maneuver of 2nd level or lower to each ally (including the Leap Dragoon themself). Six Dragons, and Dragon's Crest I am almost certainly NOT going to do...

dyslexicfaser

2010-01-16, 01:40 AM

I've been checking out your entry Draco (because I'm a pretty big FF Dragoon fan, myself), and I'm kind of confused. The requirements are all over the place.

You could use a ToB shadow hand maneuver to qualify - but it doesn't advance initiator maneuvers. And otherwise you need arcane casting - which it also doesn't advance, but instead gives you... divine spells? And you need both tumbling and heavy armor proficiency?

So would the easiest way to qualify be some heavy armor class with a Swordsage (since you need shadow hand and.. mystic cobra, which I'm assuming is a homebrew discipline?) dip? I'd rather not take the prescribed fighter/cleric/rogue before level 7, since that seems needlessly complicated and not very optimal.

DracoDei

2010-01-16, 03:22 AM

Ah... I suppose some explanation is required... my means of constructing it was based on the concept that almost everything the class can do from a fluff perspective, you should already be able to do a LITTLE of. Thus it isn't built for any one class or "common sense" multiclassing to get into.

Let me break it down, requirement by requirement.

Alignment: Lawful Good or Neutral Good
The dragoons struck me as very noble types, but Freya is good friends with a thief.

Feats: Mobility, Spring Attack
Get in, do your damage, get out, necessary for the elusive nature of the dragoon, wanted to have some precedent for that in the character before they enter the class.

Weapon Focus (Any 1 Dragoon Weapon)
Gotta be good with a spear.

Skills: Jump 10 Ranks,
Gotta be able to jump like crazy.

Knowledge (The Planes) 2 ranks
You are going to end up being able to travel to the Ethereal Plane as of 2nd level, and later the Astral Plane. Before these two you are screwing around with gravity, or perhaps getting a "toe-hold" on the Ethereal to allow yourself part of the flight-like ability that typifies movement there. Yeah... that second sounds like good fluff.... finally, at 10th level you are bending not only dimensional travel, but time. Makes sense to me that you would need to start out with a firm grounding in dimensional theory... although that MIGHT be argued to be Arcana. Two ranks is only a token amount, quite possible for a non-human fighter with a 12+ Intellegence or a human fighter or with a 10+ Int. A sohei (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7465208#post7465208) gets 4+Int skill point basis, so they have an even easier time of it (well, they probably ALSO want to put some points in their disciplines' associated skill, but whatever).

Special: Acrobatic Feat OR Skill focus (Jump) OR Tumble 5 ranks
Note the "OR"s... this basically comes down to you have to have something that gives you a bonus to Jump, to represent that you have REALLY trained HARD, with great devotion. The same fighter I mentioned can also cross-class the Tumble requirements if they what to save a feat.

Special: Proficient with Heavy Armor
Adds weight to strikes, and fits the fact that the characters in the games could ONLY wear heavy armor.

Special: Weapon Specialization (Any 1 Dragoon Weapon) OR Two Maneuvers from the Mystic Cobra Discipline, at least one of which of is of at least second level
You gotta be all about the spears (or tridents or whatever). Actually Sohei get Weapons Specialization at 6th level I think, but this might let them get into the PrC a level or two earlier. Mystic Cobra
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7472197#post7472197) is indeed a homebrew discipline (by Shyftir) and it is focused on pole-arms. Sohei (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7465208#post7465208) (also by Shyftir) get access to it.

Maneuvers OR Spell Casting: Any Maneuver with the [Teleportation] Descriptor OR Ability to cast at least one spell that allows movement through or to Ethereal or Astral Space or to another plane or allow becoming part of another object. This includes but is not limited to: Absorb Weapon, Astral Projection, blink, Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Gate, Greater Planar Ally, Greater Planar Binding, Lesser Planar Ally, Lesser Planar Binding, Maze, Meld into Stone, Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Plane Shift, Shadow Walk, Summon Instrument, Summon Nature’s Ally (Any), Summon Monster (any), Teleport, Teleport, Greater , Teleportation Circle, Transport Via Plants, Tree Stride, and Word of Recall
This basically says you gotta be able to do a bit of dimensional travel already, I should probably work in options for psionics now that I think of it. There are both arcane and divine spells on the list... originally I also had a requirement to cast Cure Light Wounds but I dropped it.

Equipment: At least one Dragoon Weapon of at least masterwork quality, Armor that is Heavy Armor or Armor that would be Heavy Armor would be if it was made out of ordinary materials (So Mithril Full-Plate, Half-Plate, etc count). If the character later loses such equipment, they do NOT lose the benefits of this class, but they require said equipment to properly train to advance as a Leap Dragoon and thus can't gain levels in this class until they replace it.
Gotta have the gear to properly train with.

As for the mis-matched spell-casting, that was my way of reproducing a few aspects of the game (like never needing to worry about food and water), as well as Freya's magical abilities such as "Reis' Wind" (which turns into Regeneration Ring), and "Cherry Blossom". The item creation stuff is meant as a subtle nod to the cheap availability and ease of use of potions, softs, and, of course, Pheonix Down.

I am considering allowing an option to dump the casting for full IL advancement and a slow progression of maneuvers (3 or 4 over the 10 levels) and stances(just 1 probably). Access would be to Mystic Cobra (definitely), and maybe one or more of the following(hard to decide which ones):
-Diamond Mind (Freya seems very reserved and only breaks once, that I can recall, and that was from an incident that would put most people into years of therapy. Eh, as I check her dialogue on a fan web-page she also was afraid to see the Burmecian palace in ruins so, maybe not...)
-Shadow Hand (Mobility)
-Iron Heart
-Devoted Spirit (I dunno... I just get that paladin-esque vibe off of them...)
-Army of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173) (Sohei get it, so it is worth a look tonight, rather than after I wake. Jump into the middle of your foes, then demonstrate that you aren't surrounded, you are in a target rich environment... could work)

Despite the fact that Tiger Claw is based on Jump... I just don't see the two philosophies going together THAT well... I mean leap dragoons are about running away really well every other round, and tiger-claw is full-tilt berserker.

White Raven might or might not have fit the Dragoons of Cleyra, but both Freya and Fratley were lone travelers at critical times in their developments. Thus, any training regimen they created might be hard to adapt to such things. Plus any commander who is incommunicado half the time in a fight isn't going to be very effective.

"Cherry Bomb" could conceivably imply access to Desert Wind (the animation looks firey, even if it is untyped damage), with its ability to hit multiple opponents at once easily, but... yeah, not strong enough of a link...

((Will edit in about selected homebrew disciplines either in a few minutes, or after I sleep. Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71422), Gentle Breeze (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40885), Placid Lake (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/guardian_of_the_frozen_grotto_and_placid_lake_scho ol) ))

Owrtho

2010-01-16, 03:35 AM

DracoDei

2010-01-16, 03:51 AM

In the case of the maneuver of spellcasting thing, I'd suggest also allowing abilities to qualify. That way if your a race or class that grants one of those (or an equivalent) as a spell-like or supernatural ability (or even extraordinary if there are any), you would be able to use that for the requirement.

Owrtho

Good catch... hard to believe I missed that one... in it will go, along with psionics... and, anyone feels like giving me the ways to word it, shadow-casting, incarnum, binding, true-naming, and/or invoking.

Owrtho

2010-01-16, 03:59 AM

Maybe something like "Some form of dimensional travel, be it from feats, racial abilities, spells (from any form of magic), maneuvers, psionics, and/or class features. Examples include but are not limited to..."
Might take a little rewording as I'm not sure if it was dimensional travel or something slightly different including it, but that seems like the easiest way that could cover most everything.

Owrtho

DracoDei

2010-01-16, 04:16 AM

Yeah... that would work, as long as nobody is going to whine that it is too vague, or that munchkinry will result when someone argues that Create Water qualifies or something...

EDIT: Also, if it is that obnoxious to get into, is it powerful enough to make up for it? Should I change the Will save to Good?

Fortuna

2010-01-16, 06:02 AM

And I just did another burst of work on it. Not much changed, just fluff for the most part, but I would love opinions on that.

Flarp

2010-01-16, 12:57 PM

Not to toot my own horn or anything, but, by merit of walkover, I technically won the second aPiWaTW contest.

Just sayin'.

Have we had any word from Witchking on when we'll be seeing another of those? I'd be willing to drum up another one, should the need arise.

DracoDei

2010-01-16, 02:35 PM

Leap Dragoons now have even more fluff (and more yet to come), plus rules for a sublime-way path.

DaTedinator

2010-01-16, 08:24 PM

Leap Dragoons now have even more fluff (and more yet to come), plus rules for a sublime-way path.

DracoDei, you remind me of my best friend. I like you, and I like your stuff, but you're very verbose. You write good stuff, but I mean, compare just Leap Attack (Float) with, say, Vaynor's entire class. Just your one class ability is about 850 words, his entire class is only 950.

I mean, adding fluff is fine, but I think with the place things are at now, your primary concern should be cutting rather than adding.

Again, I like your stuff, it's good stuff! But since you have all this time to work on things, I'd work on simplifying if I were you.

Vaynor

2010-01-16, 08:27 PM

You write good stuff, but I mean, compare just Leap Attack (Float) with, say, Vaynor's entire class. Just your one class ability is about 850 words, his entire class is only 950.

I'm not sure if this is a compliment or an insult, but I'll take it as the former. :smalltongue:

DaTedinator

2010-01-16, 08:29 PM

Oh, compliment. :smallbiggrin: I appreciate conciseness.

EDIT: Probably because I'm so bad at it. :smalltongue: I mean, I like to think I write concise stuff, but believe you me, that's only after some serious editing down. I start big and whittle.

DracoDei

2010-01-16, 08:55 PM

But since you have all this time to work on things, I'd work on simplifying if I were you.

I am... not so good at simplifying things. I can throw less important stuff (like the list of example spells that qualify you for entry into the class, and the entire history section at the start, and the maybe even the feats (but those are easy enough to skip for those who don't care), but the mechanics... well, that is where I need a little help on simplifying things (I don't want to change the mechanics, just my explaination of them). I can try, of course, but I don't have the highest hopes.

DaTedinator

2010-01-16, 09:08 PM

Don't get discouraged! I used to be really bad about making things long and complicated, but after making it a goal to be shorter, eventually I was able to learn how to whittle my stuff down. And I'm more than willing to help you work on it! I won't do it for you, but I can certainly help you. Just, not tonight, I have a headache. :smallsigh:

But seriously, we can do Leap Dragoons, or anything else of yours that you think would be good to whittle down. Just drop me a PM.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-17, 01:00 AM

Two Meditations for the Enlightened Master are up...opinions are welcome.

Golden-Esque

2010-01-17, 01:26 AM

dyslexicfaser

2010-01-17, 01:33 AM

Two Meditations for the Enlightened Master are up...opinions are welcome.

For pure style, you just can't be touched, Djinn.

That said... it seems too good. Ninja is inferior to a regular old rogue, so some scaling up is desirable, but... an Enlightened Master can sneak past all defences, drop a daze effect on any guards, and then having our pick of cutting through all DR and regeneration and leaving the enemy a mangled, un-healable wreck (and don't forget the negative levels), or silencing any Batmen in the audience (and then for a cherry on top, 50% miss chance plus mirror images so no one's going to be able to hit you any time soon) ... and we're only up to level 4 in the class.

Talk about the ultimate assassin.

Xallace

2010-01-17, 08:56 AM

I really like the idea of getting a prize for beating the current undefeated champion, but my only question is "What if I want to put the bottled Djinn on my counter as a trophy instead of violently smashing it to the ground?"

Well, he is a genie, so maybe he should grant the winner a wish? :smalltongue:

Also, Djinn, if you win this contest I think you should wear the banner. Possibly alter the image to be confused at this prospect, just for effect.

DracoDei

2010-01-17, 12:01 PM

I believe the idea was that the banner would be around, motivating us, until someone actually won it, rather than it being specific to this contest.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-17, 12:03 PM

Agreed. Besides, Djinn can't really kick Djinn's ass.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-17, 12:11 PM

So, Wraith...when am I gonna see your PEACH on the Eliminators? :P

Xallace

2010-01-17, 12:17 PM

I believe the idea was that the banner would be around, motivating us, until someone actually won it, rather than it being specific to this contest.

I really just thought it'd be funny.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-17, 12:29 PM

So, Wraith...when am I gonna see your PEACH on the Eliminators? :P
Hehe, I've read over the class like four times at this point, but haven't sat down and written up my thoughts. I'll get to it, I promise!

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-17, 12:37 PM

Four times? Why?

Hyooz

2010-01-17, 05:05 PM

Yours'll get a read over way before mind does, though >.> so be happy about it.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-18, 12:39 AM

Four times? Why?
Primarily because I keep looking at it, starting to read it, but getting distracted... I've had a bunch of stuff come up IRL over the past few days, so I kind of got stopped in my tracks there.

Arbitrarious

2010-01-18, 01:23 AM

Primarily because I keep looking at it, starting to read it, but getting distracted... I've had a bunch of stuff come up IRL over the past few days, so I kind of got stopped in my tracks there.

I hope everything is ok.

DracoDei

2010-01-18, 01:41 AM

Err.. I hope so as well...

Arbitrarious

2010-01-18, 12:24 PM

First draft of part 2 is up

DracoDei

2010-01-18, 01:33 PM

Random Person:

Skills section: Missing commas after "Escape Artist (Dex) " and "Survival (Wis)".

Pounce: Giving this at first level makes this class eminently dipable, especially for higher level fighters with nothing better to do with their feats. Still... why not?

Sprint: Flavorful, not so useful in most cases. Also, when does the fatigue end if they stop moving early (such as if they are closing range to melee a ranged-striking enemy who appeared a ways off?).

Evasion: Makes sense for this class. Might consider swapping this and Pounce. But only maybe.

Mobility: Good choice.

Extra Attack: Good mechanics... BAB is about where it should be, especially with Pounce.

Enhanced Speed: "gins" should be "gains". Other than that, yeah, it helps out with some of the problems with full-attacks... but just enough to keep things interesting. Thus more flavor than power.

Quick-Mind: Useful. Especially the "never surprised" bit and chance to act in a surprise round. The +4 wouldn't be THAT useful without those.

Improved Evasion: Obvious choice given that they get Evasion.

Speed Burst: Eh... the flavor of missing your next action doesn't QUITE fit to me, but that could just be me, and it is definitely mechanically necessary.

Improved Pounce: Nice... is it a pre-existing mechanic, or did you make it up yourself? Don't know about the attacks having to be in order, but whichever.

Unbelievable Speed: "Automatically Succeed" makes me wary, especially with Epic uses. Maybe a +20 bonus? Take 20 (but I don't think that natural 1's are auto failures for skill checks, so this would be pretty weak)?

All in all a pretty powerful class, but fighting types need the love...

Dynamists in the world: You quote is missing the closing quote-mark.

"They will usually be intensely focused while doing so, but are frequently quite relaxed the rest of the time.": "Relaxed" isn't the sort of word I would associate with this class... try "casual"?

"to the point of actively and openly campaigning for "Dynamocratic leadership"." : I giggled...

Example character is obviously not finished, but you knew that.

Fortuna

2010-01-18, 02:49 PM

Improved Pounce was my own mechanic, so thank you for the nice critique of it.

Epic uses were why I said automatically succeed. Tumble: you can stand up as a free action, you can ignore falling damage, and you can move 20 feet straight up. Balance: you can run on clouds. Now tell me that is overpowered or not awesome.

DracoDei

2010-01-18, 03:51 PM

Well, it seems I was wise to reserve that second post... the "sample encounter" section, complete with example character (in progress), now resides there, so nobody think I left that section out.

Random_Person:
As for "running on a cloud" that was exactly what I had in mind when I said "overpowered"... now that I consider further I realize that flight has been available for many levels by that time, so it is indeed "awesome" rather than "overpowered".

Admiral Squish

2010-01-18, 03:59 PM

I might have to start doing this contest, too...

Lvl45DM!

2010-01-18, 06:33 PM

Help! i dont play 3.5 so i need PEACH on my Sagesword and some help with the creating a sample character

Owrtho

2010-01-18, 06:41 PM

In the opening quote, you have 2 't's in terrifying and it should probably say renders instead of causes.

Owrtho

JoshuaZ

2010-01-18, 06:50 PM

Help! i dont play 3.5 so i need PEACH on my Sagesword and some help with the creating a sample character

You should probably note which abilities are su, ex, or sp.

Brians Over Brawn:

I can't tell if this typo is deliberate. But it is hilarious.

Once a day, against a creature of a major area of study, the Sagesword may automatically score a hit with max damage, and a critical is threatened.

The wording here needs work. Do you mean something like "Once a day, a Swordsage may have an attack role automatically succeed against a creature within an area of major study. All damage dice are also maximized and the attack threatens a critical hit as usual." You may want to specify if this applies only to beings normally subject to critical hits or all beings. For example, this ability is useless against undead as written. (This is assuming that I understand what you want here)

Some of the other abilities could you slightly better wording. "You Kids Are My Life" for example.

I'm not sure what you mean in the requirements by Knowledge (any monster type) since knowledge skills for specific monster types don't exist (some of them did in 3.0 but that's different). Do you mean a Knowledge skill which corresponds to knowledge about some type of creature?

Vaynor

2010-01-18, 06:54 PM

The wording here needs work. Do you mean something like "Once a day, a Swordsage may have an attack role automatically succeed against a creature within an area of major study. All damage dice are also maximized and the attack threatens a critical hit as usual." You may want to specify if this applies only to beings normally subject to critical hits or all beings. For example, this ability is useless against undead as written. (This is assuming that I understand what you want here)

I think it should be changed so that even if they are immune to critical hits, the damage is doubled against them due to the Sagesword's intimate understanding of the way their bodies work. So it may not be a critical hit, but it functions as one.

Also this ability isn't so terribly good that it should be 1/day, I think you could manage 1/encounter and have it be fine.

Lvl45DM!

2010-01-18, 07:01 PM

Thanks guys :D
And Brians over Brawn was a mistake...but i think im keeping it that way

Admiral Squish

2010-01-18, 07:15 PM

Question: Do you NEED to do a sample encounter/character to qualify? My time is stretched as it is...

Vaynor

2010-01-18, 07:42 PM

Question: Do you NEED to do a sample encounter/character to qualify? My time is stretched as it is...

As far as I know, all entries must complete the prescribed format.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-18, 07:47 PM

As far as I know, all entries must complete the prescribed format.

Our contest overlord ErrantX has been flexible about some aspects in the past. In particular, note that in the last contest ErrantX considered some to be sufficiently complete to be votable even though they did not have samples. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134760) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131375).

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-18, 07:59 PM

As far as I know, all entries must complete the prescribed format.

Nope. I personally have never completed a sample encounter, and have often neglected or cut sections of the fluff. It is, to my knowledge, optional, although possibly some of it (enough to give a feel of the class) is required.

Admiral Squish

2010-01-18, 07:59 PM

I'm gonna go ahead and call it optional. I might have to stat Simon up anyway, just for giggles.

On that note, you have until I finish this to figure out which Simon I'm talking about. Aaaaaaand... GO!

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-01-18, 08:21 PM

Quick note on the Sagesword's skills. Knowledge (any pertaining to monsters) should be simplified to either just (any) or to the obvious from here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)

DracoDei

2010-01-18, 10:03 PM

Well, that will be a load off my mind... at least in future, since this time around finishing out all the aspects shouldn't prove TOO taxing for me.

Lvl45DM!

2010-01-18, 10:13 PM

Well i think my note explains it, but ill put that link. Thanks kitty

Golden-Esque

2010-01-18, 10:20 PM

Quick note on the Sagesword's skills. Knowledge (any pertaining to monsters) should be simplified to either just (any) or to the obvious from here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)

I agree. {Any Pertaining to Monsters} is a little too general :P.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-01-19, 01:11 PM

I agree. {Any Pertaining to Monsters} is a little too general :P.

Just to note, with liberal interpretation, the only Knowledge skill that doesn't cover "monsters" would be (Architecture and engineering), and so help you if you come across an animated fortress.:smalltongue:

Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, and The planes all explicitly list creature types, while Geography, History, and Nobility and royalty list things such as "people," "royalty, wars..." and "family trees," which all could be "monsters" of some shape or form.

Personally, I'd just go with (any) for both prerequisites and class skills and call it a day.

Hyooz

2010-01-19, 02:03 PM

Just to note, with liberal interpretation, the only Knowledge skill that doesn't cover "monsters" would be (Architecture and engineering), and so help you if you come across an animated fortress.:smalltongue:

Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, and The planes all explicitly list creature types, while Geography, History, and Nobility and royalty list things such as "people," "royalty, wars..." and "family trees," which all could be "monsters" of some shape or form.

Personally, I'd just go with (any) for both prerequisites and class skills and call it a day.

Actually, liberal interpretation continued could allow engineering to apply to certain clockwork constructs and architecture to more finely crafted colossal golem types.

And really, what other Knowledge will you roll against the dreaded Gazebo?

JoshuaZ

2010-01-19, 03:41 PM

Just to note, with liberal interpretation, the only Knowledge skill that doesn't cover "monsters" would be (Architecture and engineering), and so help you if you come across an animated fortress.:smalltongue:

Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, and The planes all explicitly list creature types, while Geography, History, and Nobility and royalty list things such as "people," "royalty, wars..." and "family trees," which all could be "monsters" of some shape or form.

Personally, I'd just go with (any) for both prerequisites and class skills and call it a day.

I don't think that this is intended to apply to things like humans and the like so it might make sense to just explicitly list the first subset and leave out Geography, History, Nobility and Royalty. I think the point is you shouldn't be able to qualify for this based on knowledge(baked goods). Hmm, now I want to make a monster that explicitly uses knowledge(geography) as the relevant skill. Maybe some variation of a genius loci?

JoshuaZ

2010-01-20, 08:55 PM

Ok. I've added a few more feat options for the Knight of the Grave. If people could take a look at those and let me know if they are balanced and make sense that would be good. I may add a few additional spell options to Secrets of the Grave but other than that think the class is close to done.

Fortuna

2010-01-20, 09:09 PM

I just got a completely random idea for the next PrC contest: masters of the skies. I don't know whether you take requests for themes, but I'll put it out there, just in case. I already have an idea if you do accept it.

dyslexicfaser

2010-01-20, 09:23 PM

Hell, if Errant takes suggestions, I'd like to put forth Contest XVII: Dragonforce.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-21, 12:12 PM

I still do like the Valentine's Day themed Linked Classes or Two-Headed Giant (two creators, one class) concept...it fits with the season.

Also, I'm having some serious design issues with the Enlightened Masters, which may require a complete revision of the class...and I've got only 10 days to go.

Fun. :smallfrown:

Hyooz

2010-01-21, 01:37 PM

Only ten days? Oh noes!

Lol, you'll be fine.

Lvl45DM!

2010-01-22, 01:25 AM

How about Charisma based classes for the Valentines day season?

JoshuaZ

2010-01-22, 01:31 AM

How about another hybrid contest for Valentines? Joining together disparate mechanics and fluff in a warm embrace.

DragoonWraith

2010-01-22, 02:35 PM

Too soon after the last one, I think (even though those are my favorite type of class to design), plus I like the idea of the tag-team designed classes (even though I have no idea who I might work with).

Maybe ask in the Board/Site Issues forum for permission to allow design teams to create a special shared account between the two of them, so something like "Djinn in Tonic/Lord Gareth" that they both know the password for, and so can both work on the class?

DracoDei

2010-01-22, 11:48 PM

D.W.: Any estimates about when you might be getting back on the PEACHing horse? It is really helpful...

A.J.Gibson

2010-01-23, 12:51 AM

I totally didn't see this when I posted my gish prestige class earlier this week. Can I post if as part of the contest, or would that count as 'previously posted' and disqualify me?

DracoDei

2010-01-23, 09:15 PM

Well, since the person in charge hasn't responded I guess I will give you an interim answer by saying that I would THINK it would be in the spirit of the contest for you to be allowed to enter it, even with that situation.

ErrantX

2010-01-23, 10:45 PM

I totally didn't see this when I posted my gish prestige class earlier this week. Can I post if as part of the contest, or would that count as 'previously posted' and disqualify me?

As you just posted the class a few days ago and are new to the site, I will let it slide this time. You may enter the class.

-X

A.J.Gibson

2010-01-23, 11:43 PM

As you just posted the class a few days ago and are new to the site, I will let it slide this time. You may enter the class.

-X

Thanks a lot. I don't expect to win, of course, given the caliber and experience around here, but it's fun competing!

Golden-Esque

2010-01-24, 01:56 AM

Thanks a lot. I don't expect to win, of course, given the caliber and experience around here, but it's fun competing!

Aye, it is.:smallbiggrin:

Xallace

2010-01-24, 09:53 AM

Alright, well I've finally expanded and updated the fluff of my class. Here's hopin' it's enough. :smalltongue:

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-01-24, 12:44 PM

Hmmm...I may actually have to withdraw from this one...I'm just not getting any inspiration.

One week to go...we'll see what happens.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-24, 10:29 PM

And yea, the Lord, known as Gareth, did stretch forth his mouse hand, and with great solemnity, did cause through his instrument, the mouse, the mighty Reply button to be clicked, and with this done, he did turn his fingers to his other instrument, the board of keys, and craft for the thread a bump of such power and fury that it was brought to the top of the page.

Xallace

2010-01-25, 12:13 AM

Hmmm...I may actually have to withdraw from this one...I'm just not getting any inspiration.

One week to go...we'll see what happens.

No way, man, you're almost there!

OK, so skimming your class briefly: From just looking at your flavor text, it looks like you've created an antimatter ninja, which may be the most pants-wettingly terrifying class concept I've ever thought about.

But skimming briefly over the class, I see we are a psychic ninja who utilizes Void to be better at ninja-ing.

That sounds like an excellent beginning, and I think we can go places with it, but not the direction you took (no offense). Firstly, I would cut out the Void. Not philosophically, mind you, but as the actual power source of the class. Instead, I think you should focus more on the psionic side of things to realize the "void" philosophy. Now, hear me out here.

When I think of abilities relevant to a psionic ninja, the first one to come to mind is easy: Remove your "existence" from the perceptions of your target! A telepathic ninja doesn't need to sneak around when his target simply ignores him! And you could have all sorts of fun void-flavored abilities out of this: you could "strike from the void" with a death-attack-style ability, you could make yourself only perceivable by a single creature (such as the target) to make yourself all scary or "send a message," you could create false images and perceptions in a target, and eventually you could kill a target by simply forcing them to perceive that they're dying; and then they do! No murder weapon, no visible wounds? Sounds right to me!

Similarly, I would consider adding in a small psionics progression. Some PP (ala Psionic Fist) and a short set of power known (from the Telepathy discipline, I'd wager). The ability to convert PP into Ki, and perhaps Ki into PP, would also be an ability with precedent.

Perhaps when you achieve Psionic Focus, you can cause your target to ignore you. You can expend Ki on additional effects, such as Death Strike.

And I think you'd barely have to refluff the class! Heck, you'd just have to change the flavor text and tweak the mechanics somewhat on most of the class features you already have!

I hope I helped in any way at all there, Djinn.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-25, 12:54 AM

Ok, my quick review of the Eldritch Sword:

Ok. So seems like a standard gish sort of PRC, fairly heavy on the magic side.

Formatting could use a little work. Generally, ability titles are Bolded, with (su), (ex), etc. to denote what category the ability falls into. This makes it much easier to read.

The character may cast a spells an suspend

Pretty sure "an" should be "and".

Now as to more substantive remarks:

I'm concerned about the Arsenal being too powerful. The right spells, especially those that have long-casting times could be released all of a sudden in a way that is potentially extremely broken. Essentially you are gaining much more than the quicken metamagic without any of the cost in higher spell slot levels.

Related to that: An immediate action is not necessarily "quicker" than a swift action. If you mean people can use an immediate action instead of a swift action when not their turn, that's a different claim. Also, note that swift v. move is not always clear cut in terms of which one functionally is better to give up.

I'm concerned about the "Arcane Talent" options.

The "Full Casting" option is broken. That's much more powerful than a standard feat. I can do some very broken stuff with that ability if I take it at level 2 of the prc and then branch out into other stuff. It also doesn't fit the gish flavor very well at all since that's much more the "I'm a badass wizard" sort of thing. I'd also be worried about someone combining that with ultimate magus for ridiculously high caster levels.

"Full Toughness" basically makes their casting classes retroactively have effectively d8s rather than d4s. Consider what happens if I take exactly 2 levels in this class and then go on to just continue my normal magical progression.

The Eldritch Sword can duplicate the effects of any combat feat that would normally be available to fighters as a bonus feat. They can may do this a number of times per day equal to their base attack, and each usage lasts one round. Multiple feats can be active at the same time (even multiple copies of the same feat), and activating any number of feats is a swift action. The Eldritch Sword may choose any feat they meet the base attack prerequisite for, but they may ignore attribute prerequisites. If they choose a feat with prerequisite feats they must duplicate those feats as well. This talent may only be taken once.

This again looks potentially broken. At least it only lasts 1 round, but the ability to add say cleave, or mounted combat, or point blank shot more or less at will is potentially very broken. I'm a bit confused why you let multiple feats be active at the same time. Is there any easy way to get multiple swift actions in a single round?

Potent Spells (Supernatural Ability)
The Eldritch Sword learns how to make their lower level spells more effective. For any spell with a level less than level 4, the Eldritch Sword calculates the save DC as if it were a level 5 spell; thus a level 1 spell would have a save DC that is 4 higher, and so forth. This talent may only be taken once.

So effectively this is multiple copies of heighten for free? One word: Glitterdust. And I suspect people who know a lot more than me can point to stuff outside core that would also be a bit ridiculous with this ability.

Bonus Meta-Magic Feat (Extraordinary Ability)
The Eldritch Sword may learn a meta-magic feat in place of an arcane talent. When a feat is bought this way, the Eldritch Sword can ignore any pre-requisites for the feat. This feat may be taken multiple times.

Oh my. So could I take Improved Heighten Spell, Intensify Spell or Enhance Spell all of which are normally epic? And even if we rule out epic, there would likely be some pretty broken stuff I could do if I looked through Complete Arcane or almost any other splat book (metamagic feats with prerequisites are not uncommon) Completely removing prerequisites is just asking for trouble.

There's a problem here also with Arcane Talent. Most (although not all) of the Arcane Talent options don't fit with the fluff at all. These are all options that might make sense for a heavy-duty caster. It isn't clear where a warrior-wizard should be getting these from. The only exceptions are the spell failure improvement and the hit point increase.

Eldritch Swords often spend time preparing for battle. Eldritch Swords who come from a fighting background are eager to use their powers, and Eldritch Swords from a spellcasting background are generally eager as well: if they were more patient they would be spending all their time studying magic instead of learning proper sword technique.

I'm confused by the last line. Proper sword technique is difficult as well. Also, if they are so much neglecting studying magic why are they 8/10 progression?

Since there is no formal definition of what an Eldritch Sword is (in fact, most don't even call their selves Eldrtich Swords), it is difficult to list any of note, but the term Eldritch Sword was first coined by a human warrior who studied magic with elves and used the resulting powers to make up for her athletic short-comings.

So you mean this is more of an enhancement class than an essence prestige class using the distinction made by Djinn here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137641)? I get that sort of feel from what you say above. To make a core comparison, this is closer to the Mystic Theurge than the Shadowdancer or Dwarven Defender. But that doesn't seem to fit well with the last sentence about the term being explicitly coined in the game.

Possibly more comments later. First JZ get sleep.

Edit: Added in comments about last few sections of fluff.

DracoDei

2010-01-25, 01:50 AM

I have been PMing with DaTedinator, getting some tips for simplifying my explanations of things.

Also, just another random note: you might want to throw a little love at Sublime Way Dragoons at 8th level, since spellcasters get better item crafting. At 4th Sublime Way-types get a readied maneuver, so it's fine there.

Eh... this brings up an interesting point... I want the maneuver using side to PROBABLY be a bit weaker than the spell-casting/item-making side, since Sohei Adept BETTER be stronger than Fighter. 8th level is much to late to have the difference show up though... Quite frankly I designed the table of initiator benefits without regard for the rest of the class, just picking patterns that looked good (and a bit weaker than Sohei Adept's progression)

Also, at some point (not necessarily before the end of the contest) I need to make a second example character who is a Human Sohei Adept perhaps with a 1 level Sword-sage dip for Shadow-Hand Maneuvers.

A.J.Gibson

2010-01-25, 01:52 AM

I'm concerned about the Arsenal being too powerful. The right spells, especially those that have long-casting times could be released all of a sudden in a way that is potentially extremely broken. Essentially you are gaining much more than the quicken metamagic without any of the cost in higher spell slot levels.

Related to that: An immediate action is not necessarily "quicker" than a swift action. If you mean people can use an immediate action instead of a swift action when not their turn, that's a different claim. Also, note that swift v. move is not always clear cut in terms of which one functionally is better to give up.

The idea is that the ES can put up their buffs at the beginning of combat immediately, instead of having to wait for their turn. If they do badly in initiative, then an encounter (and by this time they'll be at least level 17) could have a whole round to hit them while they are completely undefended.

The "Full Casting" option is broken. That's much more powerful than a standard feat. I can do some very broken stuff with that ability if I take it at level 2 of the prc and then branch out into other stuff. It also doesn't fit the gish flavor very well at all since that's much more the "I'm a badass wizard" sort of thing. I'd also be worried about someone combining that with ultimate magus for ridiculously high caster levels.

When I originally posted ES in it's own thread, several people said to remove this option, because it was so weak it was worthless. I can see how it could be misused now; perhaps a simple 'you can count your martial levels towards your arcane caster level without limit'. The idea here is that it becomes more attractive to take fighter levels.

"Full Toughness" basically makes their casting classes retroactively have effectively d8s rather than d4s. Consider what happens if I take exactly 2 levels in this class and then go on to just continue my normal magical progression.

I'm willing to dump this, but frankly it doesn't seem that strong. The character will still be no stronger than a cleric, and compared to the Stalwart Sorcerer, it seems pretty tame. Still, maybe I should remove it, to give more incentive to take fighter levels.

Ah, what the hell, I'll change it.

This again looks potentially broken. At least it only lasts 1 round, but the ability to add say cleave, or mounted combat, or point blank shot more or less at will is potentially very broken. I'm a bit confused why you let multiple feats be active at the same time. Is there any easy way to get multiple swift actions in a single round?

This feature is designed to produce more opportunities to have fun with a character; player's can go through the PHB and try out random feats for fun. And frankly, feats just simply aren't that powerful. So what if the character can get +1 to hit within 30' at will? That's hardly a game breaker.

The ability to duplicate multiple feats at once was to make it possible to take feats with complicated prerequisites, but still be able to penalize them for going for the bigger power. A character could duplicate Whirlwind Attack, for example, but they would have to duplicate all the prerequisite feats as well, this making it more expensive.

So effectively this is multiple copies of heighten for free? One word: Glitterdust. And I suspect people who know a lot more than me can point to stuff outside core that would also be a bit ridiculous with this ability.

Okay, this one somehow got f*cked up, I put the new version in it's place. Basically, you can bump the DC of the spell up to half the maximum spell level you can cast, so Glitterdust wouldn't have the DC of a 5th level spell until you could cast 9th level spells.

Oh my. So could I take Improved Heighten Spell, Intensify Spell or Enhance Spell all of which are normally epic? And even if we rule out epic, there would likely be some pretty broken stuff I could do if I looked through Complete Arcane or almost any other splat book (metamagic feats with prerequisites are not uncommon) Completely removing prerequisites is just asking for trouble.

I think it goes without saying that you can't have an epic feat before epic. Most of the feats in CA have a prerequisite of either 'any meta-magic' (a lame prerequisite). What abuse are you concerned about happening? All this effectively does in most cases if you 2 feats, and one of them you can never use.

There's a problem here also with Arcane Talent. Most (although not all) of the Arcane Talent options don't fit with the fluff at all. These are all options that might make sense for a heavy-duty caster. It isn't clear where a warrior-wizard should be getting these from. The only exceptions are the spell failure improvement and the hit point increase.

I'll see if I can come up with some more warrior-centric talents.

I'll try to fix the formatting, too.

Thanks for your input!

Edit: Now I have to edit my post to comment on your edit in your post. Yes, the ES is an enhancement class. I thought the Eldritch Knight wasn't really offering anything unique, and I keep seeing people using the Spellsword as a dip, because ASF reduction is so ridiculously hard to come by for a sorcerer or wizard.

Owrtho

2010-01-25, 01:59 AM

A telepathic ninja doesn't need to sneak around when his target simply ignores him!

You mean give them an SEP Field? That would be quite the boon to any profession relent on stealth.

Owrtho

Latronis

2010-01-25, 03:51 AM

Hmmm...I may actually have to withdraw from this one...I'm just not getting any inspiration.

One week to go...we'll see what happens.

Damnit Djinn I've almost finished my entry for the special prize you can't pull out now!

DracoDei

2010-01-25, 04:35 AM

Quick Note regarding the bound.

and so is equally capable of imbuing his attacks with law and cutting through the protections of chaos.
Both clauses of this part seem to be saying the same thing... Law breaks the protections of Chaos in D&D. I know what you are trying to say, but you didn't say it quite right.

I am going to TRY to review your work in thanks for all the reviews you have given.

Admiral Squish

2010-01-25, 06:10 AM

STUPID BRAIN AM NOT WORKING! T.T

Yeah, this idea is not working well at all. I believe I have to withdraw my non-entry.

DracoDei

2010-01-25, 07:26 AM

STUPID BRAIN AM NOT WORKING! T.T

Yeah, this idea is not working well at all. I believe I have to withdraw my non-entry.

Well, keep a copy if at all possible (I see it is already gone from the thread), so if you get inspired later you can finish it.

Admiral Squish

2010-01-25, 08:02 AM

Well, keep a copy if at all possible (I see it is already gone from the thread), so if you get inspired later you can finish it.
I am like unto a ninja. >.> <.< Muahahaha.

ex cathedra

2010-01-25, 09:36 AM

My work-in-progress entry and Latronis' have so much in common I'm not sure if I should still post mine. I haven't yet posted it because some of the fluff and the example character aren't complete. :smallconfused:

Latronis

2010-01-25, 09:37 AM

ex cathedra

2010-01-25, 10:06 AM

You don't even know. It's uncanny, how similar some of our ideas were. Though, great minds think alike, and all that. :smallwink:

DracoDei

2010-01-25, 10:19 AM

Seeing as we are already up to page 42, with 6 days left to go plus voting... I think we may need to start on a fresh thread (with links forward and back between them) for the next contest. That will make sure all the commentary is in one play for that contest.

JoshuaZ

2010-01-25, 12:33 PM

I'm willing to dump this, but frankly it doesn't seem that strong. The character will still be no stronger than a cleric, and compared to the Stalwart Sorcerer, it seems pretty tame. Still, maybe I should remove it, to give more incentive to take fighter levels.

Ah, what the hell, I'll change it.

Maybe if the bonus was capped out at class level? Then it would scale well and it defeats the take at level 2 and then go do something else trick.

This feature is designed to produce more opportunities to have fun with a character; player's can go through the PHB and try out random feats for fun. And frankly, feats just simply aren't that powerful. So what if the character can get +1 to hit within 30' at will? That's hardly a game breaker.

Ok. But what if they decide to take cleave? Or if they decide to take Mage Slayer on a round they aren't casting? This seems potentially very powerful if they make the right choices. It also isn't clear fluff-wise what is happening here.

I think it goes without saying that you can't have an epic feat before epic. Most of the feats in CA have a prerequisite of either 'any meta-magic' (a lame prerequisite). What abuse are you concerned about happening? All this effectively does in most cases if you 2 feats, and one of them you can never use.

Well, the epic abuse is the main concern (and this will still be an issue as soon as you hit level 21 since you'll be able to get some feats 6 levels early if you time it right, but that's a much more minor concern). I guess overall this isn't necessarily broken, just very powerful.

Hmm, given that this is intended as an enhancement PrC it may be one of the better mage-warriors out there. I agree that the standard Eldright Knight is very meh.

A.J.Gibson

2010-01-25, 02:08 PM

Maybe if the bonus was capped out at class level? Then it would scale well and it defeats the take at level 2 and then go do something else trick.

Ok. But what if they decide to take cleave? Or if they decide to take Mage Slayer on a round they aren't casting? This seems potentially very powerful if they make the right choices. It also isn't clear fluff-wise what is happening here.

Well, the epic abuse is the main concern (and this will still be an issue as soon as you hit level 21 since you'll be able to get some feats 6 levels early if you time it right, but that's a much more minor concern). I guess overall this isn't necessarily broken, just very powerful.

Hmm, given that this is intended as an enhancement PrC it may be one of the better mage-warriors out there. I agree that the standard Eldright Knight is very meh.

I don't particularly want to cap at class level because it effectively becomes a hit point bonus to the class, instead of what it's meant to be: a way for more mage heavy ES's to be a bit closer to their tanking counter parts. I've changed it so that the hit point bonus is equal to the character's base attack, so they'll get more hit points for their fighter classes. This will make taking fighter levels more attractive (one of my goals, I think the fighter is too weak, so I like to tie things to base attack so taking more fighter levels actually gets you something).

Cleave really isn't all that strong. So what if you get an extra attack, it's only about half as good as being under a haste spell. And because it has a prerequisite, it might end up being twice as expensive for the the ES if they don't have Power Attack. Should I maybe cut down on the uses per day? Say half base attack, rounded down? Then the typical ES would have 5-10 uses.

I hadn't thought about the Mage Slayer thing, I'll make a fix to prevent that.

I'm not too worried about people taking a 2-level dip in this class to get an arcane talent. You'll note the prerequisites for this class requires a martial class level and a feat, and the first level of this class doesn't advance spellcasting. Anyone who wanted to dip would lose two levels of spellcasting! Once a character reaches level 2, there is no advantage to them not advancing to level 6, unless they really want a better familiar.

One of the hardest things about making this class was trying to balance it. Eldritch Knight and Spellsword are both considered underpowered, so I had little to compare it to. I also see spellcasting levels as really powerful, so giving up 2 is a big deal. I also wanted to throw some things in that made gishing a little easier. At the same time, though, I wanted it to be generic, so people could make their own idea of what a gish is.