Isn't V more powerful now that xykon? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zevox

2009-04-06, 11:20 PM

Most likely, yes, V is presently more powerful than Xykon. Xykon is "just" a low-epic level character (22-23 is our best guess). V has the souls of two of the most powerful evil epic-level casters ever to exist bound to her and full access to their powers. Most likely, Haera, Ganoron, and Jephton were all individually more powerful than Xykon, possibly significantly so. Together they outclass him just that much more.

V won't go after Xykon, though. He's not really her concern. He has always been more Roy's enemy than anyone else's within the Order, so V cares little about him personally. V's concern at the moment is to get the Order reunited. Even after that, if she still has the splice, she likely wouldn't risk it. She may outclass Xykon, but he's still not an inconsiderable foe - no epic-level character ever is. And he's not alone, but has an entire army at his beck and call, including a few powerful allies like Redcloak and the MitD. And she has no idea how long the splice will last, too. Unless V's ego is completely unchecked by her rational mind at this point, she's not going to run the risk of storming Xykon in his power base all by herself.

Besides which, the plot would be ruined if Xykon bit the dust now anyway. He and Redcloak are the comic's main antagonists. They have to stick around until the end or close to it. Who else is going to be a credible threat to the world in their place? The Linear Guild? I don't think so. The IFCC might be able to pull it off, but I find it rather ridiculous to think that the Giant would just throw out Xykon and Redcloak in favor of that group, particularly so quickly after introducing them.

...well, have we EVER seen Xykon use a teleportation spell? In fact, have we ever seen him use a spell from the Conjuration school at all? (I dunno if sorcerers have that "barred school" limitation or not, I just know they can't pick their spells out of a spell book like wizards can)
Xykon has used conjuration spells before, in Start of Darkness (Cloudkill). And he does know teleport (he comments here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) that he can't use it because his tower is warded against it, implying he does have it to use).

For Sorcerer mechanics, no, they do not have barred (or specialized) schools. What they have is a pool of spells they simply know, with no restrictions on the schools they can pick from and no need to memorize them each day, and the ability to cast a certain number of them from each spell level per day. They can choose which ones they use their slots for on the fly, unlike wizards, who have to memorize each spell in advance, and once they use it up, its gone. The disadvantage is that sorcerers only learn a very limited number of spells, while wizards can pick and choose from any that they have in their spellbook each day for memorization.

Zevox

Cracklord

2009-04-07, 04:37 AM

V has power, but no finesse. Xykon has hap lots of experience dealing with very powerful characters. Fyron had a mean repotiore of spells (outclassing him at that point significantly), The druidess was epic, and so was Durokan. None of them have survived a fight with Xykon.
Xykon and V seem to just lob spells at a problem until it can't fight back. Now, V has better attacks, but Xykon has more experience AND a bunch of seriously tough minions AND is far more Evil then V could ever be. In a straight fight, V. But in an assult on Xykon's power base? V's a wizard, not a god.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 05:28 AM

V's been using the splice to try and put right h** failures at Azure City. Failing to defeat Xykon wasn't one of those, so I suspect it's not on h** priority list.

Failing to defeat Xykon was his main failure at Azure City. He failed to defeat Xykon's Death Knight, failed to save the Azurites from Xykon's army, and failed to find Haley because of Xykon's Cloister.

Moreover, V's pride would dictate him to challenge the other most powerful known magic user, in order to show off his Ultimate Arcane Power.

Theodoriph

2009-04-07, 05:41 AM

Epic Teleport in and of itself says nothing about their respective power levels. Epic spells have to be researched. We have no clue what, if any, spells Xykon has researched.

As to who's more powerful...V is at the moment. That doesn't mean Xykon couldn't kill her. V doesn't have many hitpoints...Xykon could easily kill her, but in terms of power with regards to an objective standard...V.

When Ganonron leaves, assuming he's the next to go, it'll be trickier, since Jepthon's sorceror levels won't stack with V's wizard levels. Depending on Jepthon's spell selection (and Xykon's level), V could easily be more powerful...or be weaker.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 05:41 AM

Unless V's ego is completely unchecked by her rational mind at this point, she's not going to run the risk of storming Xykon in his power base all by herself

Round 1: Time Stop. Moment of Prescience, Epic Dispel, Epic Scrying, Greater Teleport.
Round 2: *With +25 bonus to opposed Dexterity check from MoP, V wins Initiative.* Quickened Disjunction, Heightened Control Undead.

Good bye, Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich. Hello, Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich V's obedient puppet.

Ridureyu

2009-04-07, 06:05 AM

Mind you, I could see V getting off the first syllable of that before falling for Xykon's batman-level insta-win sneaky rules exploit.

Xykon: "Hey look, another higher-level character. Check that one off."

Xykon won't go down until the correct dramatic plot moment for Xykon to go down. if this means beating V in an unfair fight, that's what'll happen.*

*Mind you, this could all be a big setup to toss Xykon out the window and make V the new big bad, but I highly doubt it. Also, even though Xykon has nearly lost in the past, he's also shown incredibly amounts of resourcefulness and taken down higher-level opponents before. I could easily see V deciding to gloat right before attacking, and not even finishing one sentence before failing a Finger of Death save, or finding out that it's only a Xykon hologram over an epic-level Rune of Insanity/Explosiveness, or that a gigantic bolt of lightning causes a random sonic boom which knocks V into a Rancor's nest, or something else like that.

Or it turns out that Xykon is pretty danged powerful, and V doesn't pick the right spells. You never know!

MuLepton

2009-04-07, 06:40 AM

Good bye, Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich. Hello, Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich V's obedient puppet.
And when the splice inevitably ends, you get Good bye Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich V's obedient puppet, hello Xykon the Epically Pissed Off Epic Sorceror Lich?

Cizak

2009-04-07, 07:32 AM

...well, have we EVER seen Xykon use a teleportation spell? In fact, have we ever seen him use a spell from the Conjuration school at all?

He used Teleport as a human in SoD.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-07, 08:34 AM

Round 1: Time Stop. Moment of Prescience, Epic Dispel, Epic Scrying, Greater Teleport.
Round 2: *With +25 bonus to opposed Dexterity check from MoP, V wins Initiative.* Quickened Disjunction, Heightened Control Undead.

Good bye, Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich. Hello, Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich V's obedient puppet.

Case 1:
:xykon: Made my saving throw[+13 base, +1/3 for wis, + eventully magic buff, not unlikely] . My turn now? Meteor swarm!

:vaarsuvius: What are you doing, simpleton? high level casters don't fight with damage... wait, was that 80 damage without saving throw? Let me check my total hp... CRAP!

Case 2:
:xykon: Command, master!
:redcloak: (or Tsukiko) He dominated Xykon! Luckily I prepared the right spell this morning - cast some form of mental shield
:xykon: Everything is clear now. Meteor swarm!

Case 3
:xykon: Command, master!
:redcloak: Disintegrate!
:vaarsuvius: Fool! did you think a single disintegrate could kill me in this form?
Tsukiko: Disintegrate!
:vaarsuvius: One single disintegrate no, but two, in fact... yes, they could
ZAP

Case 4
One hundred hobgoblin archers see V and shoot at hir
:vaarsuvius: I knew I was going to only fight spellcasters, so I didn't tought buffing my AC would be needed... WHAT KIND OF IDIOCY IS THAT? AN EPIC CASTER KILLED BY LOWLY HOBGOBLINS??? I WON'T EVEN GET XP FOR KILLING YOU, that's why I didn't took you into account when I cast protective spells before the fight
Hobbo guy: Well, you have an AC of 11, so half of us did hit. It's 50 d6 of damage...

I can think of other possibilities.

But seriously, we don't know the powers of the soul splice. We know for sure it gives V some spell resistance because the dragon's finger of death failed with no effort (but not too high a spell resistance, because V still felt the need to buff against spells), and some extra hp because V took a hell of damage from the strikes even with stoneskin, but we have no idea how the CD of the saving throws against V's spells, or V's own saving throws/defenses, are affected.
Since basically in such magical duel the first who fail a saving throw is the loser, we cannot judge V's real power without knowing such data. It is already possible that Xykon would have the upper hand in single fight, or that Xykon would be obliterated in the first round. We cannot know without knowing how the saving throws are affected.
I don't understand why lot of people think it just takes a save or die spell to solve a fight. It's called "SAVE or die", not "die and shut up!"

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 09:18 AM

And when the splice inevitably ends, you get Good bye Xykon the Epic Sorceror Lich V's obedient puppet, hello Xykon the Epically Pissed Off Epic Sorceror Lich?

*sigh*

V: Destroy your phylactery, then kill yourself while I watch the show.
Xykon: Yes, Master.

It's called *Save-or-Lose* for a reason.

MuLepton

2009-04-07, 10:19 AM

a) Why the exasperated sigh? You didn't specify he'd just order Xykon to kill himself. And... it doesn't seem like he can predict when a soul leaves him/the splice ends, so using Xykon as a puppet might come back to bite him if he doesn't order the "suicide" immediately.
b) What is?

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 10:23 AM

Case 1:
:xykon: Made my saving throw[+13 base, +1/3 for wis, .

Xykon has 13 Wis according to Class & Level. Assuming he has a magic item that gives as much as +6 to Wis, that's 19 Wis, or a +4 bonus on Will saves (where did you get the idea that he'd get "1/3" of something? Liches don't recalculate their saves). So it's a 17 bonus. With a fantastic roll of 19, that's a 36 score.

The DC is 10 + 7 (base spell level) + Unknown INT bonus, but likely around 13 (18 start +8 from, let's say, 32 levels of the relevant soul +5 inherent + 6 Circlet of Intellect = 37 INT, and that's assuming the Intelligence bonuses of the Splice don't stack) + 13 Heighten Spell = 43 DC. And that's not even counting any Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus/Epic Spell Focus or other DC boosters the spliced souls could have.

Xykon can save only if he rolls a natural 20.

Now, if we factor in Twin Spell and Improved Metamagic (at least one of the souls must have either of those): 40 DC twice. So even if Xykon rolls a natural 20, he's still screwed.

+ eventully magic buff, not unlikely

Disjuntion, remember?

Case 2
He dominated Xykon!

At this point, both V and Controlled Xykon would already be killing the minion in question.

Luckily I prepared the right spell this morning - cast some form of mental shield

LOL, good luck casting a spell that doesn't exist.

Anyway, Dispel Magic won't work due to V's insanely high Caster Level, neither Redcloak nor Tsukiko has Disjunction, and Protection from Evil is touch range and would require Redcloak to defeat Xykon's Will save. Plus in the latter case, it's nothing V couldn't immediately fix with a targeted quickened Greater Dispel Magic.

Case 3
:xykon: Command, master!
:redcloak: Disintegrate!
:vaarsuvius: Fool! did you think a single disintegrate could kill me in this form?
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Disintegrate!

Both minions in one room with Xykon? Sure, why not.

Round 1:
:vaarsuvius: Time Stop. | Quickened Ethereal Jaunt, Moment of Prescience, Quickened Protection from Spells, Epic Dispel, Epic Scrying, Greater Teleport |

Round 2: Surprise Round
:vaarsuvius: Quickened Disjunction, Heightened Control Undead
:xykon: Someone dispelled the Clois... oh crap. *disjoined* *Controlled*
:redcloak: ?! *disjoined*
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png ?! *disjoined*

Round 3:
:vaarsuvius: *wins Initiative due to MoS*
:vaarsuvius: Heightened Wail of the Banshee.
:redcloak: DED
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png DED
:vaarsuvius: Where is your phylactery, lich?
:xykon: Right there, Master.
:vaarsuvius: Quickened Disintegrate. Now kill yourself while I watch.

Case 4 etc etc

V would be well aware of the situation due to the Epic Scrying. Nothing you've offered poses any danger to a properly prepared epic caster. And it's weird that you proceed from the assumption that even though V has 30+ Int and an insane Spellcraft, he would still be stupid in his choice of buffs.

But seriously, we don't know the powers of the soul splice. We know for sure it gives V some spell resistance because the dragon's finger of death failed with no effort

FoD requires a failed Fort save. V had Protection from Spells (+8 to all saves), plus probably has high base saves thanks to the splices.

The little damage from FoD on a successful save was likely just too minor to register (although I do agree it should have been at least somehow visible).

we have no idea how the CD of the saving throws against V's spells, or V's own saving throws/defenses, are affected.

We can reasonably speculate, as I've done above. It would mainly be hinged on what level the epic casters are, and whether their intelligence scores stack.

It is already possible that Xykon would have the upper hand in single fight, or that Xykon would be obliterated in the first round.

If played intelligently, both Xykon and V could emerge the winners. To arrive at this conclusion, however, we have to do some examination. Just to state this off the top of your head would have been groundless.

I don't understand why lot of people think it just takes a save or die spell to solve a fight. It's called "SAVE or die", not "die and shut up!"

Because when properly used, a save-or-die becomes a die-and-shut up. Such as, when your DC is so high / the enemy save is so low the target can't possibly save, and there are even numerous ways to negate a lucky natural 20.

There are also numerous non-damaging spells that don't even allow a save. Such as, for instance, Blasphemy. Or, Ghoul Glyph.

But of course, damaging spells have their place as well. As I have stated, mages don't usually fight with direct damage spells. In some situations, a damaging spell may prove useful (although, IMHO, such situations are few and far between).

In fact, one of the simplest ways Xykon could be defeated is Quickened Time Stop + a ton of Delayed Blast Fireballs. But that would be lame and boring and repetitive.

Having the megapowered adversary as your own handpuppet is much more fun, IMHO.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-07, 10:29 AM

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 12:08 PM

Er no...Cloister is still in effect.

That's why there's an Epic Dispel, right?

You have to be in the afterlife for Epic Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

LOL!.. I mean, um, the afterlife is a prerequisite only for the non-epic shmucks. And even to them, afterlife's pretty easy place to visit via plane shift, Greater Teleport, or Gate.

unless that's Jephton's spell.

Or Ganonron's.

And Epic Dispel, depending on how it's formulated, may not get rid of the Cloister since according to Celia, it was an overkill spell.

And Celia knows much about epic spellcasting and Soul Splices. No, really.

The area and every creature in it are targets of the spell an are protected from scrying. Bringing down the area effect, which is not guaranteed, does not necessarily dispel the scry protection from Xykon.

It's still the same spell. If it's dispelled *poof* it's dispelled.

So yeah, if V-splice had all the required epic spells, he could attempt it, but it is far from a certain outcome. Xykon may not have a high Int score but he's not fool unlike some characters.

Unless Xykon has been scrying on V, he has no idea what's going on. We haven't seen him take any precautions apart from Cloister - and that only because he found a convenient focus, which amounts probably to a recorded epic spell. For all we know, Cloister is the only epic spell in Xykon's arsenal, and new epic spell research takes many days. Xykon is not a fool, but he's also lazy, easily distracted and can't be bothered most of the time.

With the element of surprise on his side, and more raw magical power (all those known epic spells!), V could easily overtake Xykon.

Of course, if Xykon were played intelligently and invested greatly in magical protections, he could thwart V's assault despite being lower level.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-07, 12:29 PM

Xykon has 13 Wis according to Class & Level. Assuming he has a magic item that gives as much as +6 to Wis, that's 19 Wis, or a +4 bonus on Will saves (where did you get the idea that he'd get "1/3" of something? Liches don't recalculate their saves). So it's a 17 bonus. With a fantastic roll of 19, that's a 36 score.

The DC is 10 + 7 (base spell level) + Unknown INT bonus, but likely around 13 (18 start +8 from, let's say, 32 levels of the relevant soul +5 inherent + 6 Circlet of Intellect = 37 INT, and that's assuming the Intelligence bonuses of the Splice don't stack) + 13 Heighten Spell = 43 DC. And that's not even counting any Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus/Epic Spell Focus or other DC boosters the spliced souls could have.

Xykon can save only if he rolls a natural 20.

Now, if we factor in Twin Spell and Improved Metamagic (at least one of the souls must have either of those): 40 DC twice. So even if Xykon rolls a natural 20, he's still screwed.

Disjuntion, remember?

At this point, both V and Controlled Xykon would already be killing the minion in question.

LOL, good luck casting a spell that doesn't exist.

Anyway, Dispel Magic won't work due to V's insanely high Caster Level, neither Redcloak nor Tsukiko has Disjunction, and Protection from Evil is touch range and would require Redcloak to defeat Xykon's Will save. Plus in the latter case, it's nothing V couldn't immediately fix with a targeted quickened Greater Dispel Magic.

The 1/3 was not intended as one third but as a bonus between +1 and +3.

(18 start +8 from, let's say, 32 levels of the relevant soul +5 inherent + 6 Circlet of Intellect = 37 INT, and that's assuming the Intelligence bonuses of the Splice don't stack) + 13 Heighten Spell = 43 DC.

That's a reasonable assumption.
But I see as equally reasonable that V is not getting any bonus to int from the splice, so every spell's CD is calculate from hir INT or that of the soul that actually have the spell. Also, in the geekey thread V is stated to not having a headband +6, but +4 or +2, and the inerhent bonus from wish may or may not come from one of the souls. The headband of intelligence may not influence the INT of the soul, or the spell may come from the sorceror. 13 levels of heighten spell may not be available.
So it may well be that the DC would be plain 10 + 7 (spell level) + 6 (actual V's bonus int according to the geekery), for a 23 that Xykon is likely to survive.
Or it may be 10 + 7 + 10 (hypotetic bonus of the soul who actually had control undead) + 2 (hypotetic greater spell focus of that soul), for a 29 that Xykon may or may not survive.
Also, we know V can cast 10th level spells, but we don't know how much improved metamagic he's got. It may be that quickened disjunction is out of hir range. The other metamagic feats you proposed are from sourcebook that may or may not exist in oots.

The idea of Redcloack casting a spell, I was thinking at mind blank, but it is an 8th level wizard spell, and I'm not sure clerics got it, or if it dispels already existing dominations. I'm a bit rusty on that aspect, but something like that should exist, at least in one sourcebook. I was thinking in the hypotesys that V act first (dominate Xykon), Redclaock 2nd (dispel it), and Xykon 3rd (kill V).

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just saying that we don't really know what powers V really has. Let's put it that way: if V teleported to Azure city and killed Xykon, I won't be surprised. But neither I would if Xykon killed him.
And Rich will never give us complete explanation of the soul splice, because that way he can direct the plot more freely, without becomin neurotic about powers and numbers, so it will go as the story needs.

In fact, one of the simplest ways Xykon could be defeated is Quickened Time Stop + a ton of Delayed Blast Fireballs. But that would be lame and boring and repetitive.

That's the tactic I would choose, since it is the most accident-proof. This is the only tactic I see no way Xykon can survive, neither by luck or resistances (unless a complete immunity to fire exist) or extern intervention.

Because when properly used, a save-or-die becomes a die-and-shut up. Such as, when your DC is so high / the enemy save is so low the target can't possibly save, and there are even numerous ways to negate a lucky natural 20.
I know. I played in NWN 2 an epic sorceror who kept casting banshee's wail with a CD of 47. It was boring after the first times. But you must assure that the saving is really too high for the opponent. Otherwise, damage is most safe, since you can stay sure that the opponent cannot survive more than x times, while he can possibly pass any number of saves.
In this case, we really have no idea about such saves. They may easily range from 25 to 50.

Lamech

2009-04-07, 12:53 PM

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just saying that we don't really know what powers V really has. Let's put it that way: if V teleported to Azure city and killed Xykon, I won't be surprised. But neither I would if Xykon killed him.
This is correct, a battle could go either way. Here's why...
Case V dies: Anticipate teleport, readied disjoin scroll, readied attack by the MitD. V dies for attempting to teleport up to Xykon.
Note: If we give V celerity, Xykon might have it as well, so Xykon will simply counter with a celerity: meteor swarm, disrupting V's concentration.
Case Xykon dies: See undead prince.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-07, 01:52 PM

LOL!.. I mean, um, the afterlife is a prerequisite only for the non-epic shmucks. And even to them, afterlife's pretty easy place to visit via plane shift, Greater Teleport, or Gate.

I see. So you are saying in OotS dead spirits can see the living but cannot interact with them. But if you are living or undead caster, you can plane shift to the afterlife and use epic afterlife scrying. Of course then, as a living or undead caster, you can plane shift back and act on your information. And this is the way you know it works in OotS. OK.

Or Ganonron's.

Well the necromancer's spell killed things, the conjurers teleported things and the sorcerer, well we don't know what he's got. But I gather that what you are saying is that one of the two remaining splices could have an Epic Scrying spell. OK.

And Celia knows much about epic spellcasting and Soul Splices. No, really.

Well obviously she does not know as much about them as you. But I was not judging the character's ranks in Knowledge:Arcana. I was quoting Celia because I thought the author was using her for exposition on certain aspects of the Cloister spell. That's why I thought the author had Celia state that the Cloister made her teeth rattle, to set a mood. (Am I the only one thinking know about which spells would vibrate other parts of Celia?)

It's still the same spell. If it's dispelled *poof* it's dispelled.

That is just mere negation. That each creature in the area was also targeted by the Cloister and that the effect lasted after the area meant that the Cloister affected each creature individually. Dispelling one effect, would not dispel the effect on all of them. So if your Epic Dispel had a given area effect then it could affect the Cloister on AC and the creatures in the dispel area but not creatures outside the dispel area, assuming Cloister and Epic Dispel interacted this way. Correct me if I am wrong.

Unless Xykon has been scrying on V, he has no idea what's going on.

I imagine Xykon could tell if the Cloister came down even if that was only 1 rounds warning. 1 round is enough for a lot of things to happen as you point out.

We haven't seen him take any precautions apart from Cloister -

Well aside from the army, Redcloak, the MitD, TeeVo you are correct again. If we do not see him take precautions they don't exist. Gotcha.

and that only because he found a convenient focus, which amounts probably to a recorded epic spell. For all we know, Cloister is the only epic spell in Xykon's arsenal, and new epic spell research takes many days.

And liches have so little time...

Xykon is not a fool, but he's also lazy, easily distracted and can't be bothered most of the time.

Yeah probably when he walks up to one of those epic gate things which imprison the god killing abomination he's just going to wing it.

With the element of surprise on his side, and more raw magical power (all those known epic spells!), V could easily overtake Xykon.

Seriously now, I agree with you.

Of course, if Xykon were played intelligently and invested greatly in magical protections, he could thwart V's assault despite being lower level.
And again we agree, seriously.

And there's the rub. I think your saying that V-splice is more powerful than Xykon. And I agree. And V-splice could prepare in such a way that Xykon is taken out in 1 or 2 rounds. I agree too. However, as you state, it could also go the other way. So I think that V would not go for a direct attack. That's my take on the character. This is my in story reasoning.

Now some others have stated that although V-splice may be more powerful than Xykon, it is not Xykon's time to end yet so he has story immunity. I agree with them too. This is out of story reasoning.

And so we see our author has been very careful to keep his story consistent...at least I see it that way.

David Argall

2009-04-07, 04:39 PM

King of Nowhere

2009-04-07, 04:43 PM

Xykon is not a fool, but he's also lazy, easily distracted and can't be bothered most of the time.

Generally this is true, but Xykon is pretty good at figuring out how to cast spells. I mean, (little SoD spoiler) he could cast lightning bolt and animate dead when he was 13!. And Xykon is also very resourceful. If he wants to overcome an obstacle, he WILL overcome it. He is the kind of guy that, when really want something, will eventually figure out a way to do it.
He mainly fights obstacles blindly and lazily with brute strength, but only because he know that 90% of the time that would be effective. If not, he fights with more strenght, knowing that most of the time this would suffice. If strength is not enough, he will find a way. So Xykon probably can cast epic spells, and has a decent number of them.
Or, it is also possible that he saw researching them as a waste of valuable XP, and thus decided to focus on regular spells.

Omegonthesane

2009-04-07, 04:48 PM

We are talking 60+ levels vs 20. This is not a contest, except to find ways the obvious result can be avoided. V stomps whatever she pleases.
The only thing that saves Xykon is that this is a story and his role is not done. So he is going to survive.

IIRC we don't know the details of the splice, and have no proof that caster level stacks. For all we know, in terms of pure power, V's probably just a "normal" relatively high power wizard who can command two epic casters to cast spells through him at their usual strength.

Assuming this is the case, and allowing for Redcloak and Tsukiko to defend Xykon, V would still have the edge, but it wouldn't take an implausible run of good luck for Team Evil to win that encounter.

cdrcjsn

2009-04-07, 04:54 PM

I think it would be pretty funny for Xykon to always be "killed" but redcloak always managing to get away with his phylactery.

Make it a running gag.

Maybe it's just me though.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-07, 04:54 PM

Generally this is true, but Xykon is pretty good at figuring out how to cast spells. I mean, (little SoD spoiler) he could cast lightning bolt and animate dead when he was 13!

Well that is one sure way to get a date.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 05:18 PM

I see. So you are saying in OotS dead spirits can see the living but cannot interact with them. But if you are living or undead caster, you can plane shift to the afterlife and use epic afterlife scrying. Of course then, as a living or undead caster, you can plane shift back and act on your information. And this is the way you know it works in OotS. OK.

In OoTS, Celestials (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) come to use the Afterlife Scrying. Celestials are not dead spirits, they are living creatures. Therefore, the Scrying works for the living as well. And if you will insist that the Scrying would work only for Celestials - well, shapeshifting into one is no prob.

But that's not what was so funny about your statement. You seemed to believe that just because Mt Celestia had some sort of a permanent epic scrying effect going, only dead people can ever actually use epic scrying.

I merely reminded you that any epic spellcaster can develop and cast an epic scrying spell.

And V was obviously casting such a spell, coupled with an epic dispel against the Cloister, when he was interrupted by Katos.

Well the necromancer's spell killed things, the conjurers teleported things and the sorcerer, well we don't know what he's got.

1) Every epic soul would have at the very least three epic spell slots.

2) Divination and dispelling are useful for any kind of mage, and Divination can't even be banned, so either Ganonron, or Jephthon, or both could be the source of V's epic dispel + scry.

But I gather that what you are saying is that one of the two remaining splices could have an Epic Scrying spell. OK.

You know, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your sarcasm.

V was actually shown in the comic to be casting an epic dispel + scrying spell. His spell was made irrelevant by the Katos revealing Haley's location, which got V mad. #643. In case you missed it.

Well obviously she does not know as much about them as you.

Does your sarcasm serve any actual point except trying to insult the opponent?

But I was not judging the character's ranks in Knowledge:Arcana. I was quoting Celia because I thought the author was using her for exposition on certain aspects of the Cloister spell. That's why I thought the author had Celia state that the Cloister made her teeth rattle, to set a mood.

Celia is what, a lowly sylph with levels in Expert [lawyer]. Any epic magic could make her teeth rattle. And V's caster level is so much higher than Xykon's it's not funny.

(Am I the only one thinking know about which spells would vibrate other parts of Celia?)

Ooh, oooh! I know! IMPLOSION!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/3/4242531_5de6fe755a.jpg

And you know the most amusing part? Called Outsiders killed outside their home plane can't be raised or resurrected. Only wishes or true resurrection (9th level spell) could work.

That is just mere negation. That each creature in the area was also targeted by the Cloister and that the effect lasted after the area meant that the Cloister affected each creature individually. Dispelling one effect, would not dispel the effect on all of them. So if your Epic Dispel had a given area effect then it could affect the Cloister on AC and the creatures in the dispel area but not creatures outside the dispel area, assuming Cloister and Epic Dispel interacted this way. Correct me if I am wrong.

Indeed, the Epic Dispel would not concern itself with finding all targets of the Cloister - it would just dispel all spells in the area of Azure City. And Xykon (we assume) is in Azure City, so he will be subject to the Dispel and the subsequent Scrying.

Unless you mean to say that Xykon's not in Azure City anymore? In which case it certainly gets trickier. Where could he possibly be? Maybe... umm... Girard's Gate? Named by the Oracle as the one Xykon would first go to, among the remaining Gates?

So it's just an issue of casting one more spell.

I imagine Xykon could tell if the Cloister came down even if that was only 1 rounds warning. 1 round is enough for a lot of things to happen as you point out.

Yes, Xykon could probably tell when his spell was dispelled. But he won't have any rounds to react, because V is coming at him immediately after the dispel. See my scenario above for details.

Well aside from the army

A bunch of low-level hobgoblins? Totally useless.

, Redcloak

Easily neutralised. See scenario.

the MitD

This particular creature has proved to be beyond useless during the entire comic.

TeeVo

It's just a crystal ball, i.e. a mundane scrying item. It does not give Xykon automatic warnings in advance about Epic Spliced Elves coming to destroy him.

If we do not see him take precautions they don't exist. Gotcha.

No, you did not *get* it. I said we did not see him take any precautions. We may presume he took some, but nothing tells us he did. For all we know, he's perfectly content under Cloister.

Anyway, his *precautions* would just be dispelled or suppressed, along with all other spell effects and item abilities, by the Epic Dispel.

Yeah probably when he walks up to one of those epic gate things which imprison the god killing abomination he's just going to wing it.

He's not going to let the Snarl loose, that's for sure. He likes the world, at least for the time being, remember.

And there's the rub. I think your saying that V-splice is more powerful than Xykon. And I agree. And V-splice could prepare in such a way that Xykon is taken out in 1 or 2 rounds. I agree too. However, as you state, it could also go the other way. So I think that V would not go for a direct attack. That's my take on the character. This is my in story reasoning.

You forgot V's PRIDE. The thing that forced him to damn his soul and conclude a pact with Archfiends. His pride is hurting quite severely now. He killed the dragon, but he failed to connect to his family. He teleported the fleet, but he failed to find Haley (she was found before he got around to it). Perhaps they'll manage to resurrect Roy without his help as well. Xykon is basically the only opportunity left for V to heal his wounded ego. It's also a fulfillment of his life dream - after all, CaTUAP can only exist if it is actually used. Otherwise it's just a Schroedinger's cat.

With proper preparation, V will have a very high chance of success against Xykon. Enough to risk it, IMHO. Putting life on the line is the adventurer's way.

Now some others have stated that although V-splice may be more powerful than Xykon, it is not Xykon's time to end yet so he has story immunity. I agree with them too. This is out of story reasoning.

And I have already provided, on several occasions, scenarios where V gets an epic standoff with Xykon, yet the main quest remains unresolved.

V could lose to Xykon for a variety of reasons. That's not what we're discussing here. If you remember, the original question was whether V could win, and how to do it.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 05:25 PM

IIRC we don't know the details of the splice, and have no proof that caster level stacks. For all we know, in terms of pure power, V's probably just a "normal" relatively high power wizard who can command two epic casters to cast spells through him at their usual strength.

V's Disjunction vs. ABD's Antimagic Field.

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-07, 05:43 PM

Uh, I know nothing but epic spellcasters but everyone is assuming that V has all these spells like Epic Dispelling, Control Undead, Delayed Blast Fireball and such when its shown no proof of actually having any of them...

Llama231

2009-04-07, 05:46 PM

Dr. Roboto

2009-04-07, 05:51 PM

You've also got to take into account that V hasn't tranced in a while, enough to make lines on hir face. I'm not a doctor, but that can't be good, and neither can hes judgement.

Also, V cast a lot of spells in the battle with the dragon. It seems almost redundant protection if (s)he had a polymorph prepared and was aware of the particular tactic that (s)he would use. This further shows (at least, to me) that hes judgement is flawed.

JJ48

2009-04-07, 05:55 PM

And Xykon is also very resourceful. If he wants to overcome an obstacle, he WILL overcome it. He is the kind of guy that, when really want something, will eventually figure out a way to do it.
He mainly fights obstacles blindly and lazily with brute strength, but only because he know that 90% of the time that would be effective. If not, he fights with more strenght, knowing that most of the time this would suffice. If strength is not enough, he will find a way. So Xykon probably can cast epic spells, and has a decent number of them.

I agree. So far, all the times Xykon has come across as somewhat "dim" have been times when he simply didn't care about the result. If brute strength and sacrificing minions can get you what you want, why bother with another route? (In his mind, at least.) However, when it comes down to what DOES interest him (challenging fights and gaining power), he has shown incredible ingenuity.

Additionally, there is one fatal flaw that V has that would give Xykon the upper hand, I think. V likes to talk. Yes, V can, and has, outright destroyed creatures when time is of the essence, but I believe that against so central an enemy as Xykon, that V wouldn't simply pop in and kill everyone before they could react. Rather, he would spend some time rambling about something or other to Xykon, possibly losing his focus on maintaining the Soul Splice in the process. Assuming that Ganonron leaves before the encounter, and that Jephton is the only soul left, I think it would go something like this:

:vaarsuvius:: Your time is at an end, vile creature of undeath!

:mitd:: Hey, Redcloak, why's he calling you that?

:redcloak:: <sigh> I believe that SHE is actually talking to Xykon.

:xykon:: Wait, I know you. You're one of the companions of...um...that guy I killed. "Scarletsheath", or something like that.

:vaarsuvius:: The name you are seeking is "Greenhilt", and yes, I would be one of his allies. But know that you face now no mere mid-level adventurer! I have the abilities of one of the most potent spellcasters ever banished to the lower planes! With this power at my command, I could lay waste to your entire army! I could shatter your bond to this mortal plan, and trap your soul in an eternity of torment! I could rewrite reality so that you never even existed!

Jephton's soul: Oh, sweet! Do we actually get to DO that?!

:vaarsuvius:: I could-

:xykon:: <yawn> Wake me up when you get to a point. (pretends to sleep) Zzzz...

:vaarsuvius:: HEY! Listen to me as I spell out your demise!

Jephton's soul: Meh, the lich is right; this elf is getting boring. Hey! The elf broke concentration! I'm free!

(Jephton's soul leaves.)

:vaarsuvius:: Um...perhaps you would allow me to retract my previous statements of threat?

pyrefiend

2009-04-07, 06:16 PM

V's Disjunction vs. ABD's Antimagic Field.
That doesn't prove anything. V had could have destroyed the Antimagic Field whether or not the caster levels stack, it's was just more likely to work if they did.

I certainly will. The Epic Dispel would not concern itself with finding all targets of the Cloister - it would just dispel all spells in the area of Azure City. And Xykon (we assume) is in Azure City, so he will be subject to the Dispel and the subsequent Scrying.
You're not correcting him, you're agreeing with him. Nothing you've said here goes against his explanation of the interaction between Epic Scrying and Cloister.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 06:17 PM

The 1/3 was not intended as one third but as a bonus between +1 and +3.

Okay; I just thought you got Liches mixed up with Skeletons (their Fort and Ref saves are recalculated and equal 1/3 their HD).

That's a reasonable assumption.
But I see as equally reasonable that V is not getting any bonus to int from the splice, so every spell's CD is calculate from hir INT or that of the soul that actually have the spell.

That's what I was doing. Calculating the INT for the epic soul from whence Control Undead comes.

Otherwise, V would have over 80 INT. Which means a naked DC of 50 + spell level.

Also, in the geekey thread V is stated to not having a headband +6, but +4 or +2,

It's actually +4 there. Weird, I remember at some point it being +6. Anyway, that's only -1 to DC, and we have plenty to spare (43 vs. Xykon's 37 maximum).

and the inerhent bonus from wish may or may not come from one of the souls.

The inherent bonus is called inherent for a reason. It has the same nature as a level-gained ability increase (see PHB, p. 58). So it's always with the character.

The headband of intelligence may not influence the INT of the soul

Why wouldn't it? By all logic it should. The souls are casting spells through V, they can't do it independent of the host.

or the spell may come from the sorceror.

That's true. But even in this worst-case-scenario, it's still only -2 to DC.

13 levels of heighten spell may not be available.

That's what you get for this intelligence score. If the spliced soul has higher level than 32, it goes even higher.

So it may well be that the DC would be plain 10 + 7 (spell level) + 6 (actual V's bonus int according to the geekery), for a 23 that Xykon is likely to survive.
Or it may be 10 + 7 + 10 (hypotetic bonus of the soul who actually had control undead) + 2 (hypotetic greater spell focus of that soul), for a 29 that Xykon may or may not survive.

Now you're just gimping V.

An Ancient Black Dragon has a Fort save bonus of +23. Yet, the ABD seemed to fail her save against Spliced V's Disintegrate (on a successful save, Disintegrate does a particularly miniscule amount of damage, and she seemed to be quite sorely affected). Therefore, V's DC must at least be significantly higher than 23.

If it's as low as you suggested, V wouldn't bother with save spells like Disintegrate and Delayed Blast Fireball.

Also, we know V can cast 10th level spells, but we don't know how much improved metamagic he's got. It may be that quickened disjunction is out of hir range. The other metamagic feats you proposed are from sourcebook that may or may not exist in oots.

There are tons of sourcebooks in OoTS. And what spellcaster would go around without Complete Arcane? Particularly if it's an epic evil munchkin wizard who gets tons of bonus metamagic feats.

The idea of Redcloack casting a spell, I was thinking at mind blank, but it is an 8th level wizard spell, and I'm not sure clerics got it,

Protection domain. Redcloak probably doesn't have it though.

or if it dispels already existing dominations.

It could be read as suppressing existing dominations. However, it still requires an unwilling subject to fail his Will save.

I'm a bit rusty on that aspect, but something like that should exist, at least in one sourcebook.

Weren't you the one casting doubt on existence of splatbooks in OoTS?

I was thinking in the hypotesys that V act first (dominate Xykon), Redclaock 2nd (dispel it), and Xykon 3rd (kill V).

With a simple precaution like Ethereal Jaunt, V would have a Surprise round. And don't forget V can cast at least two spells per round, three if he's got Celerity.

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just saying that we don't really know what powers V really has.

We could make some very reasonable speculations in that area. We could have an idea of what V is very likely to have, or very unlikely to have. We also know some things for certain, both from V's own actions in the previous strips, and from the Splice's actions in the recent strips.

Let's put it that way: if V teleported to Azure city and killed Xykon, I won't be surprised. But neither I would if Xykon killed him.

Actually, I would be kinda surprised if V managed to croak Xykon. I'm pretty sure he will try, but the Fates are ready to screw him over one last time.

And Rich will never give us complete explanation of the soul splice, because that way he can direct the plot more freely, without becomin neurotic about powers and numbers, so it will go as the story needs.

I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of an all-powerful plot device. The comic's strength so far has been in its adherence to the rules. It made the world and characters more "believable", and it's generally a mark of good taste/good writing. I would be quite disappointed if the author decided to ditch this approach in the current very important segment.

That's the tactic I would choose, since it is the most accident-proof. This is the only tactic I see no way Xykon can survive, neither by luck or resistances (unless a complete immunity to fire exist) or extern intervention.

Complete immunity to fire does exist. Example: Ring of Fire Immunity or Ring of Universal Energy Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm). Another example: Shapechange into a Fire-immune creature. But, these effects should be neutralised by the Epic Dispel (although it would have to beat Xykon's Will save).

And Xykon will surely survive. He's a lich, remember. If he took some precautions, his phylactery might now be separated into a hundred parts, each under epic protections, and each necessary to destroy to prevent him coming to life.

Not to mention other ways of cheating destruction, such as Death Pact, Contingent Revive Undead etc.

The benefit of Control Undead is that Xykon would be forced to inform V about the proper way to destroy himself.

I know. I played in NWN 2 an epic sorceror who kept casting banshee's wail with a CD of 47. It was boring after the first times. But you must assure that the saving is really too high for the opponent.

That's what we're doing.

Otherwise, damage is most safe, since you can stay sure that the opponent cannot survive more than x times, while he can possibly pass any number of saves.

Or target the weaker save. Or lower the save. Or slap a Twin Spell. Or use a no-save.

But, sure, if V's DC is abysmal, and he doesn't have the INT for Heighten Spell, and he doesn't have any good no-saves, then a Quickened Meteor Swarm followed by a Maximised Meteor Swarm should do the trick.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 06:36 PM

That doesn't prove anything. V had could have destroyed the Antimagic Field whether or not the caster levels stack, it's was just more likely to work if they did.

If caster levels don't stack, V had only a 14% chance of Disjoining the Antimagic Field. With such a small chance of success, and every round counting with the Dragon poised to kill/soulbind his family, V would certainly not rely on Disjunction. Even simply lobbing an Epic spell would have a higher chance of success (25% vs. 14%); but the easiest and quickest way would be to Gate in a few powerful Outsiders to take care of the Dragon.

You're not correcting him, you're agreeing with him. Nothing you've said here goes against his explanation of the interaction between Epic Scrying and Cloister.

Yeah, I might have missed the point. Corrected.

Anyway, if Xykon isn't in Azure City, the only other place he could reasonably be is Girard's Gate. Scry there, and voila.

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-07, 06:44 PM

Wait, V DOES have Delayed Fireball. my bad. The rest stands though.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 06:51 PM

You've also got to take into account that V hasn't tranced in a while, enough to make lines on hir face.

Did you also by any chance noticed that the lines disappeared after the soul splice? Well, that was because as per terms of the fiendish contract, at the moment of splicing V got a full rest with all spells replenished.

Also, V cast a lot of spells in the battle with the dragon. It seems almost redundant protection if (s)he had a polymorph prepared and was aware of the particular tactic that (s)he would use. This further shows (at least, to me) that hes judgement is flawed.

First, it was Shapechange, not Polymorph. Second, V wanted a spectacular victory. Just frying the dragon with delayed fireballs would be lame. What he did was, well, worthy of CaTUAP. It's not bad judgment, it's good taste.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-07, 07:05 PM

In OoTS, Celestials (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) come to use the Afterlife Scrying. Celestials are not dead spirits, they are living creatures. Therefore, the Scrying works for the living as well.

Yup. Dead spirit. Celestial working for diety. Mortal caster. No difference.

And if you will insist that the Scrying would work only for Celestials - well, shapeshifting into one is no prob.

Hey if you can plane shift to an afterlife realm, shapeshift into a Celestial, use a power divinity does not give to mortals and get away with it, you've got my respect.

But that's not what was so funny about your statement. You seemed to believe that just because Mt Celestia had some sort of a permanent epic scrying effect going, only dead people can ever actually use epic scrying.

I said that?

I merely reminded you that any epic spellcaster can develop and cast an epic scrying spell.

And I merely agreed with you that they may

And V was obviously casting such a spell, coupled with an epic dispel against the Cloister, when he was interrupted by Katos.

Obviously

You know, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your sarcasm.

Well it's better than shooting myself somewhere else

V was actually shown in the comic to be casting an epic dispel + scrying spell.
Obviously

Does your sarcasm serve any actual point except trying to insult the opponent?

If you remember

Er no...Cloister is still in effect.

That's why there's an Epic Dispel, right?

I mean I'm was not offended or upset by it. I was just responding in kind. But I will tone down the sarcasm. At the end of my previous post I did tone down the sarcasm...in case you missed it. And I agreed with basically what you said though I drew different story conclusions.

The Epic Dispel would not concern itself with finding all targets of the Cloister - it would just dispel all spells in the area of Azure City. And Xykon (we assume) is in Azure City, so he will be subject to the Dispel and the subsequent Scrying.

Epic Dispel may work that way.

Yes, Xykon could probably tell when his spell was dispelled. But he won't have any rounds to react, because V is coming at him immediately after the dispel. See my scenario above for details.

Yes well, to repeat myself, I said, following your scenario, that Xykon would have 1 round of warning not rounds of warning. And, as you yourself pointed out, a properly prepared epic spellcaster, like Xykon, can do a lot in 1 round. And as you stated at the end of your last post, the encounter could go Xykon's way depending on the circumstances. I was just pointing out in this small detail, how despite what you stated about Xykon possibly being able to win the confrontation, that you claimed your scenario was a sure win. And I think you still hold that position, no?

A bunch of low-level hobgoblins? Totally useless.

Not quite useless. They can be used to distract V but that may be enough. But I think you missed the point.

(Redcloak) Easily neutralised. See scenario.

The scenario is not foolproof. And the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle may not be so easy to neutralize. But I think you may have missed the point.

(MitD) This particular creature has proved to be beyond useless during the entire comic.

Only because of the needs of comedy. A monster with enough DR to be immune to Miko's hits, who can hurl horse and rider hundreds of feet and who can create an earthquake by stomping the ground when someone has taken its toys is not completely useless. But you may have missed the point.

It's just a crystal ball, i.e. a mundane scrying item. It does not give Xykon automatic warnings in advance about Epic Spliced Elves coming to destroy him.

Well we know it could record things he wanted to watch. It's a resource whose possible uses go beyond the scope of our debate but I would point out that you claimed "We haven't seen him take any precautions apart from Cloister." That statement implied that he had taken no precautions at all against any threat other than Cloister. I was just pointing out that he had various defenses at his disposal which could be used against a variey of threats, not all threats being soul-spliced uber-casters.

No, you did not *get* it. I said we did not see him take any precautions. We may presume he took some, but nothing tells us he did. For all we know, he's perfectly content under Cloister.

OK then you did not miss the point. Then why are you so vehement in your agreement with me? You agree that Xykon might win given the circumstances. Our only difference seems to me that you think the scenario you presented is foolproof and I do not think it is.

Anyway, his *precautions* would just be dispelled or suppressed, along with all other spell effects and item abilities, by the Epic Dispel.

In a foolproof plan, yes.

He's not going to let the Snarl loose, that's for sure. He likes the world, at least for the time being, remember.

And what has that got to do with whether Xykon has epic spells? My point was that aside from being able to cast Cloister using what Xykon called "the material focus for the most powerful abjuration ever", his need to be able to control a gate (epic magic items), if he ever gets possession of one, implies Xykon has epic spells (with one designed to try to control the gate).

You forgot V's PRIDE. The thing that forced him to damn his soul and conclude a pact with Archfiends. His pride is hurting quite severely now. He killed the dragon, but he failed to connect to his family. He teleported the fleet, but he failed to find Haley (she was found before he got around to it). Perhaps they'll manage to resurrect Roy without his help as well. Xykon is basically the only opportunity left for V to heal his wounded ego. It's also a fulfillment of his life dream - after all, CaTUAP can only exist if it is actually used. Otherwise it's just a Schroedinger's cat.

With proper preparation, V will have a very high chance of success against Xykon. Enough to risk it, IMHO. Putting life on the line is the adventurer's way.

Well that is your interpretation of the character. Yes V's pride is hurt. But pride is not the only thing that is affecting V. To me, Vaarsuvius seemed quite contented with his new found power in destroying the black dragon and its kin. V was not so happy with the reaction from his family. V was contented in his power to transport the fleet and to try to divine the whereabouts of Haley. He was not happy at being interrupted in the middle of exploiting his powers. It would seem to me that ultimate arcane power is not what it's cracked up to be...at least not in terms of getting closure.

V seems intent on reconnecting with Haley. What will happen then is anybodies guess but I will bet it may not turn out so good. Whether V then goes on to single-handedly take on Xykon remains to be seen. Though there is glory in it there is also risk. I would guess, whether V goes on to attack Xykon, nothing will woork out nice and neat. Not only does this make sense to me in terms of the meta-story (it's not time for Xykon to go bye bye) it also makes sense from an in-story perspective. That is, I can see where Xykon pulls out a win. I don't know how but it would not blow suspension of disbelief for me. Your mileage may vary.

And I have already provided, on several occasions, scenarios where V gets an epic standoff with Xykon, yet the main quest remains unresolved.

V could lose to Xykon for a variety of reasons. That's not what we're discussing here. If you remember, the original question was whether V could win, and how to do it.
So then why be so vehement in your defense of a scenario that requires V-splice to have specific epic spells (which V-splice may or may not have) and for Xykon to have no countermeasures in place (epic and non-epic)?

The scenario you point out is simply an epic scry-buff-teleport. It is what the dragon pullled on V. I have posted elsewhere that from a role-playing, not story, perspective this is hard to believe. Characters of 13th-15th level in a game often need to be legitimately concerned about scry-buff-teleport tactics. But OotS is a story and so negligence of scry-buff-teleport defenses for the OotS does not break suspension of disbelief, specially not when you consider how compressed the timeline is for the heroes.

However, that Xykon, epic big bad evil that he is, has no scry-buff-teleport defenses does break suspension of disbelief for me, specially when he, Xykon, has all the tools to carry out scry-buff-teleport attacks himself.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Undead Prince

2009-04-07, 07:28 PM

Just a quickie ATM.

Yes well, to repeat myself, I said, following your scenario, that Xykon would have 1 round of warning not rounds of warning.

No, he wouldn't. Round 1: V casts Epic Dispel, Epic Scrying, and Greater Teleport inside a Time Stop, Round 2: V's Surprise round, Round 3: First round when Xykon gets to act, and V has won Initiative thanks to MoP.

However, that Xykon, epic big bad evil that he is, has no scry-buff-teleport defenses does break suspension of disbelief for me, specially when he, Xykon, has all the tools to carry out scry-buff-teleport attacks himself.

1) He already has the ultimate abjuration, Cloister. According to Celia, it blocks all divination, communication, and teleportation magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). If that doesn't count as a counter against scry-buff-teleport, I don't know what does.

2) Once again, Epic Dispel. No Cloister, no Dimension Locks, no Anticipate Teleportation, no Sequesters. No nothing.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-07, 07:45 PM

He already has the ultimate abjuration, Cloister. If that doesn't count as a counter against scry-buff-teleport, I don't know what does.

And before he found that epic hippie headband? And after he leave's AC for Girard's Gate? What then?

You don't get to be big bad evil guy like Xykon without having some protection on at all times IMHO.

That Xykon was defeated by Roy the first time because Xykon did not take the OotS seriously. He did not repeat his mistake a second time.

And Xykon was nearly defeated by Soon because of Soon's from beyond the grave epic paladin coolness.

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-07, 08:30 PM

I say again, there's no proof that V even knows Epic Dispel or Epic Scrying.

Cracklord

2009-04-07, 08:48 PM

Yes. But Soon is an awesome combination of Paladin and Gengis Khan, who makes Paladin not only look badass but is so loyal death by old age isn't enough to slow him down. V sold his/her soul for power. When it comes to stregnth of character, who's the stronger one?
And this argument is relative, as there are to many factors we are unaware off. I mean, for all we know Soon was a level 70 paladin/Cleric/Samurai who killed Hae(t)ra and Ganonron in the first place and killed the Tarrasque with his teeth (Funny storry in my setting, actualy). All we know about Xykon is he's at least level 21, Redcloak is probably around 18th level, and we know nothing about the souls bound to V except two custom spells, that they're all epic and apparently Hae(T)ra was the strongest. Unless the Giant, in his infinite wisdom decides to give us more to work with, then we will never know.
Personally I feel that once wizards get to a certain level it all becomes realtive, and that Xykon has a fair chance of winning, but it depends entirely on the context.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-07, 10:35 PM

:vaarsuvius:: Your time is at an end, vile creature of undeath!

:mitd:: Hey, Redcloak, why's he calling you that?

:redcloak:: <sigh> I believe that SHE is actually talking to Xykon.

:xykon:: Wait, I know you. You're one of the companions of...um...that guy I killed. "Scarletsheath", or something like that.

:vaarsuvius:: The name you are seeking is "Greenhilt", and yes, I would be one of his allies. But know that you face now no mere mid-level adventurer! I have the abilities of one of the most potent spellcasters ever banished to the lower planes! With this power at my command, I could lay waste to your entire army! I could shatter your bond to this mortal plan, and trap your soul in an eternity of torment! I could rewrite reality so that you never even existed!

Jephton's soul: Oh, sweet! Do we actually get to DO that?!

:vaarsuvius:: I could-

:xykon:: <yawn> Wake me up when you get to a point. (pretends to sleep) Zzzz...

:vaarsuvius:: HEY! Listen to me as I spell out your demise!

Jephton's soul: Meh, the lich is right; this elf is getting boring. Hey! The elf broke concentration! I'm free!

(Jephton's soul leaves.)

:vaarsuvius:: Um...perhaps you would allow me to retract my previous statements of threat?

Heh. That was pretty good.

Silverraptor

2009-04-07, 10:42 PM

factotum

2009-04-08, 01:37 AM

But Xykon's strategy is always to keep hitting things until they fall down...

No it isn't. He trapped Miko in a moderately-escapable forcecage so he could use her to find out the location of Soon's gate, and he killed the paladins in the throne room using a Symbol of Insanity scribed onto a bouncy ball. I think both of them were his plans (note the way he explained his reasoning to Redcloak in #376), and some of the stuff he did in SoD showed an evil intellect at work, too:

I mean, the whole "Get Redcloak to kill his own brother so I can be sure I trust him?". It took a lot of brains to think that one up.

Killer Angel

2009-04-08, 02:11 AM

lord_khaine

2009-04-08, 03:39 AM

I could say that V. is now stronger that Xykon, given the fact that, thanx to the soul splice, now V. has a wider spell selection than X. (and almost certainly stronger ones).
But you know? the winner (in this hypothetical challenge) will be decided by the Giant himself. Merely by fluff and story necessity.

i dont belive the giant would put in a victory that he could not justify, when Miko defeated the order he put down a blow by blow description of the fight to show it was not just dm fiat.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-08, 04:13 AM

I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of an all-powerful plot device. The comic's strength so far has been in its adherence to the rules. It made the world and characters more "believable", and it's generally a mark of good taste/good writing. I would be quite disappointed if the author decided to ditch this approach in the current very important segment.

Rich already do that kind of things all the time.
For example, he never established the details of the character's sheets because, if he needs that someone has / has not a certain ability, he can make it so.
He never wrote the dashing swordsman class, because if he need some ability he can put that in.
And he won't write the soul splice, at least not until it is over.
It's not bad adherence to the rules, and it son't make the comic absolutely less believable. It's just leaving us uninformed of some details. Once he establish something, it stays so.

13 levels of heighten spell may not be available.
That's what you get for this intelligence score. If the spliced soul has higher level than 32, it goes even higher.

I just read the description of heighten spell to make sure: it don't do this. If you have a 7th level spell, to give it a +13 with heigthen spell you need to use (virtaully) a level 20 slot. Also, from my knowledge of the epic levels, 30 is the top. If Haerta was the most powerful by a fair bit, the others can't be higher than 28.
With that scenario, the DC would be in the 30-35 range (10 + 7 (spell level) + from 9 to 12 (INT or CHA bonus, eventaully modified by headband) + from 3 to 6 (heighten spell)+ possible from 1 to 3 (spell focus)) : favorable for V, but still decent chance of save.

i dont belive the giant would put in a victory that he could not justify, when Miko defeated the order he put down a blow by blow description of the fight to show it was not just dm fiat.
This is a very good example: the order together was more powerful than Miko, yet a few bad tactics and some unluck with saving throws reasonably led to Miko's victory. With high level wizards, a single lucky/unlucky roll can make for half a dozen levels of difference, and arrogance can justify suboptimal tactics on both parts. Obscure stuff from sourcebooks can make for many other levels. So Rich can write a believable fight whatever outcome he needs from it.

Killer Angel

2009-04-08, 04:14 AM

i dont belive the giant would put in a victory that he could not justify, when Miko defeated the order he put down a blow by blow description of the fight to show it was not just dm fiat.

Very true, but if there's a need to keep Xykon "alive" (sorry for the pun :smallwink:), saving him for a grand final confrontation with all the Order, I don't think there will be too much problems.
After all, Xykon IS powerful (the Cloister is just one example), and I think he has a lot of aces up his sleeves. Maybe only a contingency, teleporting him in a safe place, while the soul splice fades away.

Undead Prince

2009-04-08, 04:14 PM

13 levels of heighten
spell may not be available.

Looking back, I've accidentally added the base spell level twice (as such, and as part of Heighten) which is of course not right.

OTOH, I forgot to add the age bonus (the epic spellcasters would likely be very old, despite Ganonron's youngish appearance: for epic mages, extending one's lifespan is nothing, and there are also body-switching options).

Thus, if we assume the epic soul is level 32-ish and human, its INT (or CHA, in Jephthon's case) would be 18 + 8 (levels) +3 (age) +5 (inherent) = 34. For Ganonron, the circlet gives +4, total 38.

With Improved Spell Capacity (which any epic mage has), Ganonron can metamagic spells up to 14th level, Jephthon to 12th. With Improved Metamagic (again, a must for every metamagic-using mage, which is basically every mage) all metamagic feats cost 1 less spell level.

So Ganonron's DC for Control Undead would be smth like: 10 + 14 (INT) + 15 (Heightened to 14 level, and +1 for Improved Metamagic) = 39 (vs. Xykon's maximum 36 save). If we throw in Twin Spell to negate the 5% chance of a natural 20, DC becomes 36 vs. Xykon's 36.

Xykon has no chance.

If Jephthon is the caster, then DC = 10 +12 (INT) +13 (Heightened) = 35. Xykon saves only on a natural 20 (5% probability). With Twin Spell, it becomes two saves at 32 DC each: probability of escape 0.15*0.15 = 0.0225, roughly 2%.

I'd say that a 98% win chance is pretty reasonable for V to try his luck.

If at least one of the two souls invested in Necromancy spell focuses, and it's highly likely as Necromancy has the best Save-or-Dies and is generally so evil, Ganonron's DC becomes 39 with Twin Spell, and Jephthon's 35 with Twin Spell. 99.975% chance of success for V.

This is without any epic spells. Every epic mage has an epic spell that would boost his primary casting stat (Seed: Fortify). Judging from the power of Familicide and Epic Teleport, a spell that gives +30 to INT or CHA for 20 hours is a piece of cake. +30 bonus to casting stat would mean +15 DC from the ability, and another +15 DC for Heighten Spell (as with Improved Metamagic every +2 to casting stat gives you a new spell level).

So the Control Undead would have like a 69 DC.

The above is nothing special for moderately epic mages. It is not specifically geared towards Control Undead; it's based on feats, abilities and spells any epic wizard or sorceror is likely to have.

As to the general choice of Control Undead over some sort of destruction - V has to find out about the phylactery, and what is more reliable and expedient than making the lich himself tell about it.

Undead Prince

2009-04-08, 04:29 PM

I just read the description of heighten spell to make sure: it don't do this. If you have a 7th level spell, to give it a +13 with heigthen spell you need to use (virtaully) a level 20 slot.

LOL, you ninjaed me to it 8=) see my post above.

Also, from my knowledge of the epic levels, 30 is
the top.

Nope. But I suspect where you'd got that idea - CRPG level cap, huh? Well, in NWN with expansions, you could go all the way to level 50.

With high level wizards, a single lucky/unlucky roll can make for half a dozen levels of difference

99,75% probability of win. Without epic spells.

and arrogance can justify suboptimal tactics on both parts.

That is definitely true. However, first consider V's Intelligence and Spellcraft levels. Second, consider V's combat behaviour in all instances before the Splice. Third, consider V's fight vs. ABD.

I think we can say that even though V is (and always was) arrogant, it would not preclude him from properly preparing and conducting the fight.

Obscure stuff from sourcebooks can make for many other levels.

Just in case: Control Undead, Heighten Spell, Improved Metamagic and Improved Spell Capacity are all from the SRD.

So Rich can write a believable fight whatever outcome he needs from it.

That is certainly true.

But it's no fun just going with the flow, right? Not if we can deconstruct the situation and reconstruct our own possible scenarios.

Undead Prince

2009-04-08, 05:24 PM

Yup. Dead spirit. Celestial working for diety. Mortal caster. No difference.

Once again, your statement has zero value and your sarcasm achieves nothing. A mage Shapeshifted into a Celestial is, for all creature type purposes, a Celestial.

And it's dEIty. From "deus", not "die".

Hey if you can plane shift to an afterlife realm, shapeshift into a Celestial, use a power divinity does not give to mortals and get away with it, you've got my respect.

Do point out where is it ever stated that the Epic Scrying on Mt. Celestia is of Deific nature. Or that it is in any way restricted only to a certain type of creature. All we know is that it's an epic spell effect, and is located at the base of Mt. Celestia. Any decent spellcaster can get to Mt. Celestia. As the "evil adventuring party" proved.

In fact, Deities (in Deities & Demigods) are not epic characters. Their deific powers (salient abilities etc) are of a different nature and come from divine status rather than worldly experience.

But that's not what was so funny about your statement. You seemed to believe that just because Mt Celestia had some sort of a permanent epic scrying effect going, only dead people can ever actually use epic scrying.

I said that?

Let's see for ourselves, shall we?

You have to be in the afterlife for Epic Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) unless that's Jephton's spell.

LOL!.. I mean, um, the afterlife is a prerequisite only for the non-epic shmucks. And even to them, afterlife's pretty easy place to visit via plane shift, Greater Teleport, or Gate.

I see. So you are saying in OotS dead spirits can see the living but cannot interact with them. But if you are living or undead caster, you can plane shift to the afterlife and use epic afterlife scrying. Of course then, as a living or undead caster, you can plane shift back and act on your information. And this is the way you know it works in OotS. OK.

Seems pretty clear (once the reader wades through all that sarcasm), that you expressed a belief that to use epic scrying one has to be: a) a dead spirit in the afterlife, or b) Jephthon.

To which I countered that: a) Celestials also use the Mt Celestia epic scrying; b) any decent caster can travel to Mt Celestia; c) high-level non-epic mages can Shapeshift into a Celestial; d) any epic mage can have epic scrying spells. I.e. Ganonron.

[empty, pointless sarcasm snipped]

The Epic Dispel would not concern itself with finding all targets of the Cloister - it would just dispel all spells in the area of Azure City. And Xykon (we assume) is in Azure City, so he will be subject to the Dispel and the subsequent Scrying.

Epic Dispel may work that way.

Epic Dispel does work that way. Read Seed: Dispel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) + Developing Epic Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm).

If you remember

Er no...Cloister is still in effect.

That's why there's an Epic Dispel, right?

I mean I'm was not offended or upset by it. I was just responding in kind.

So your sarcastic surges were all due to that single phrase? It didn't even have any sarcasm. It's as straight as they come. I mean, you make an assumption that Cloister is still in effect, even though the very sentence you're responding to contains the Epic Dispel provision. I just point it out. Where's the sarcasm?

And don't tell me you "weren't offended or upset". You were so upset your next several posts were 80% sarcasm and 20% sense.

But I will tone down the sarcasm.

Obviously, it provides you with some sort of comfort in the face of a disbalance in your mental equilibrium caused by my *Epic Dispel* remark. I wouldn't want to deprive you of such consolation. It will just be snipped in my replies anyway, so knock yourself out.

I was just pointing out that he had various defenses at his disposal which could be used against a variey of threats, not all threats being soul-spliced uber-casters.

Well, our threat is a soul-spliced uber caster. Who can tear down all of Xykon's magical defenses with a single Epic Dispel.

And what has that got to do with whether Xykon has epic spells?

Then what did you mean by "wing it"?

My point was that aside from being able to cast Cloister using what Xykon called "the material focus for the most powerful abjuration ever", his need to be able to control a gate (epic magic items), if he ever gets possession of one, implies Xykon has epic spells (with one designed to try to control the gate).

He may have an epic spell for the Gate. Or maybe he only intends to develop one. Jephthon and Ganonron, OTOH, have two lifetimes of developing various epic spells. Compared to them, Xykon's a newcomer. He may very well have nothing except for Cloister.

In any caste, it's all moot. Any other epic or non-epic protections he has would also be dispelled.

shadowkire

2009-04-08, 05:31 PM

I love how people on this thread forget sorcerers use Charisma for spells.

Oh and please don't forget that Xykon managed to kill Dorukan, I don't know what level he was but he went on adventures with Soon who was a level 70 character. It isn't a stretch to imagine Dorukan was at least level 60, and Xykon still managed to beat him. This implies Xykon is higher than level 21

And one last thing: figuring out that Xykon, as a lich, has a phylactery that needs to be destroyed in order to finish him off for good would require a Knowledge(religion) check, a cross-class skill for both wizards and sorcerers.

P.S. (I just keep thinking up more things) If Redcloak is a level 18 cleric like others have said he can cast true resurrection to bring back Xykon if he gets away.

P.S.S. (last one I swear) Control Undead is a great tactic and all but the most likely spliced soul to have it already broke free.

Jahkaivah

2009-04-08, 06:03 PM

If V is unable to beat Xykon, it certainly hasn't been explained well.

Way I see it, V will get round to it and something happens causing him/her to lose hir powers.

But even given this, it counts as a plot hole as V's logic would have considered killing Xykon as the only neccissary action to fix this whole mess (after saving hir family of course).

David Argall

2009-04-08, 06:04 PM

Oh and please don't forget that Xykon managed to kill Dorukan, I don't know what level he was but he went on adventures with Soon who was a level 70 character. It isn't a stretch to imagine Dorukan was at least level 60, and Xykon still managed to beat him. This implies Xykon is higher than level 21
Now where do you get these level estimates? Soon and Dorukan were presumably in the low 20's.

And one last thing: figuring out that Xykon, as a lich, has a phylactery that needs to be destroyed in order to finish him off for good would require a Knowledge(religion) check, a cross-class skill for both wizards and sorcerers.
The entire party has been informed of the phylactery in comic.

P.S. (I just keep thinking up more things) If Redcloak is a level 18 cleric like others have said he can cast true resurrection to bring back Xykon if he gets away.
So far we have no proof that Redcloak is even 16th level.

Assassin89

2009-04-08, 06:13 PM

Now where do you get these level estimates? Soon and Dorukan were presumably in the low 20's.

And one last thing: figuring out that Xykon, as a lich, has a phylactery that needs to be destroyed in order to finish him off for good would require a Knowledge(religion) check, a cross-class skill for both wizards and sorcerers.

Strange, I though Knowledge(Religion) was a cross class skill for sorcerers as wizards get all knowledges as skills.

Dagren

2009-04-08, 06:23 PM

And one last thing: figuring out that Xykon, as a lich, has a phylactery that needs to be destroyed in order to finish him off for good would require a Knowledge(religion) check, a cross-class skill for both wizards and sorcerers.It's already been pointed out that Eugene already told the Order about the Phylactery. Besides that, though, where are you getting this about a Knowledge check? It doesn't mention anything about that in the SRD page for Liches.

P.S. (I just keep thinking up more things) If Redcloak is a level 18 cleric like others have said he can cast true resurrection to bring back Xykon if he gets away.That is an interesting idea. The description of Resurrection says you can't resurrect an undead, but you can resurrect someone who has been turned into an undead and then destroyed. Would that mean that Xykon could still come back even if his Phylactery is destroyed? I wonder. It's a seeming contradiction in the rules as written.

Undead Prince

2009-04-08, 06:24 PM

I love how people on this thread forget sorcerers use Charisma for spells.

ORLY?

its INT (or CHA, in Jephthon's case)...
...a spell that gives +30 to INT or CHA...

from 9 to 12 (INT or CHA bonus...

You were saying?

And one last thing: figuring out that Xykon, as a lich, has a phylactery that needs to be destroyed in order to finish him off for good would require a Knowledge(religion) check, a cross-class skill for both wizards and sorcerers.

????!

First, Wizards have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

Second, all Epic spellcasters invest into Knowledge (religion) because it gives bonus epic spell slots.

Third, everyone knows liches have phylacteries. It's like, common knowledge. Especially spellcasters, who may themselves become liches. The only requirements to make your own phylactery is be a spellcaster, have Craft Wondrous Item, and have a caster level of 11. There's nothing about Knowledge (religion) checks. If you want a check, it might just as well be Knowledge(arcana), on the nature of the arcane magic involved in lichification.

Finally, V already witnessed Xykon's return after being tossed into the Gates. If nothing else, he would at least have an idea that Xykon has some special anti-death trick. And would just ask the Controlled lich about it.

P.S. (I just keep thinking up more things) If Redcloak is a level 18 cleric like others have said

Redcloak hasn't done anything that would peg him above level 16.

he can cast true resurrection to bring back Xykon if he gets away.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Xykon would be restored to life as a human, losing the lich template. I'm not sure he'd like it (although tasting coffee again might appeal to him).

Revive Undead is only a 5th level spell for Deathbound domain, which Redcloak can get via Substitute Domain.

Control Undead is a great tactic and all but the most likely spliced soul to have it already broke free.

Control Undead is like the single best spell vs. sentient undead. And the mages, being evil, would anyway prefer controlling undead to destroying them outright.

Undead Prince

2009-04-08, 06:27 PM

Would that mean that Xykon could still come back even if his Phylactery is destroyed? I wonder. It's a seeming contradiction in the rules as written.

There is no contradiction. There are tons of ways to bring back undead (either as undead, or as living creatures). Revive Undead, Death Pact, Resurrection, True Resurrection to name but a few.

Undead Prince

2009-04-08, 07:15 PM

This is correct, a battle could go either way. Here's why...
Case V dies: Anticipate teleport...

Dispelled by Epic Dispel. Case closed.

Note: If we give V celerity, Xykon might have it as well, so Xykon will simply counter with a celerity: meteor swarm, disrupting V's concentration.

No one gave V celerity yet. It was only Quicken Spell (which he was shown to have).

Playing around with Celerity (and thus screwing Initiative) requires a separate scenario.

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-08, 07:30 PM

For the third time, no proof that any of the spliced souls actually knew Epic Dispel.

Same with Control Undead actually. And it's even more likely that V doesn't know the spell with Haer(t)a gone.

JJ48

2009-04-08, 07:40 PM

For the third time, no proof that any of the spliced souls actually knew Epic Dispel.

Same with Control Undead actually. And it's even more likely that V doesn't know the spell with Haer(t)a gone.

We also have no proof that he doesn't. If we're limiting ourselves to only what has been actually seen in the comic, and not to what COULD be there, then we have rather little information to go on, indeed.

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-08, 07:44 PM

We also have no proof that he doesn't. If we're limiting ourselves to only what has been actually seen in the comic, and not to what COULD be there, then we have rather little information to go on, indeed.

But it makes any kind of actual discussion moot. How can there be a fair assessment based on spells and feats being pulled out of the air like this?

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-08, 07:50 PM

ORLY?
Just letting you know that was sarcastic and some people might get upset by that.

Theodoriph

2009-04-08, 07:54 PM

It's really not that complicated. In a fair fight, whoever wins initiative likely wins the fight. :smalltongue:

I mean hell...a level 5 character could kill V in one round in a fair fight. :smalltongue:

factotum

2009-04-09, 01:27 AM

Xykon would be restored to life as a human, losing the lich template. I'm not sure he'd like it (although tasting coffee again might appeal to him).

Wouldn't he be, like, 110 years old? Or would the thirty-odd years he spent as a lich not count toward his age?

Killer Angel

2009-04-09, 03:24 AM

We also have no proof that he doesn't. If we're limiting ourselves to only what has been actually seen in the comic, and not to what COULD be there, then we have rather little information to go on, indeed.

Yes, but there should be a limit.
Redcloack has done nothing to let us think he's greater than lev. 16, but who knows? maybe he's 18°, and didn't cast his 9 lev. spells 'cause there was no need.
Or he has just leveled 17°, while eradicating the resistance in Azure city.
I know it's funny imagining all the way Vaarsuvius can kill Xykon, but giving him full access to all the existing spells and feats it's kinda excessive. IMO.
Maybe we can consider that, with no more necromancer in the souls splice, V. could have only necromantic spell present in Core, and no more higher than 7° lev.?
I would also dictate no more epic spells... otherwise it's too easy.
Heck, maybe Ganonron has died a loooong time ago, when ToM had still to be published... :smallamused:

rangermania

2009-04-09, 03:29 AM

I'm sure V can actually "arrange something good" for Xykon but deeper in my heart I know that I want another "Who is that guy with the green hilted sword?" pun :smallbiggrin:

I can't get enough of those

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 05:59 AM

ORLY?

Just letting you know that was sarcastic and some people might get upset by that.

You should read the definition of sarcasm (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm). Its key quality is "Saying something that is opposite of what is intended to be meant", which was prominently featured in your many sarcastic remarks.

ORLY = Oh, really? = Is that really so? = straight question, meaning exactly what it was intended to mean. Note that I immediately answered this question by following up with examples which amply demonstrated that it really wasn't so.

Likewise, there was no sarcasm in my phrase:

That's why there's an Epic Dispel, right?

It meant exactly what was intended to be meant, and not the opposite, unlike your subsequent avalanch of empty sarcastic retorts.

Really, if you get thrown out of balance by something as innocent as that, I do not envy your existence in the internets.

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 06:04 AM

It's really not that complicated. In a fair fight, whoever wins initiative likely wins the fight. :smalltongue:

But there are ways to give yourself the Initiative (e.g. Moment of Prescience), or get a Surprise Round where the enemy doesn't get to act at all (e.g. Ethereal Jaunt + Teleport), or screw Initiative altogether (Celerity), or make yourself immune to the enemy's favored mode of attack (Invisibility + Fly comes to mind vs. melee tanks)... etc. etc.

I mean hell...a level 5 character could kill V in one round in a fair fight. :smalltongue:

Go ahead, give us a scenario. It's gonna be fun. No Pun-Puns, though (keep it civil).

King of Nowhere

2009-04-09, 06:05 AM

Thus, if we assume the epic soul is level 32-ish and human, its INT (or CHA, in Jephthon's case) would be 18 + 8 (levels) +3 (age) +5 (inherent) = 34. For Ganonron, the circlet gives +4, total 38.

With Improved Spell Capacity (which any epic mage has), Ganonron can metamagic spells up to 14th level, Jephthon to 12th. With Improved Metamagic (again, a must for every metamagic-using mage, which is basically every mage) all metamagic feats cost 1 less spell level.

This is without any epic spells. Every epic mage has an epic spell that would boost his primary casting stat (Seed: Fortify). Judging from the power of Familicide and Epic Teleport, a spell that gives +30 to INT or CHA for 20 hours is a piece of cake. +30 bonus to casting stat would mean +15 DC from the ability, and another +15 DC for Heighten Spell (as with Improved Metamagic every +2 to casting stat gives you a new spell level).

So the Control Undead would have like a 69 DC.

The above is nothing special for moderately epic mages. It is not specifically geared towards Control Undead; it's based on feats, abilities and spells any epic wizard or sorceror is likely to have.

Huh... thanks for reminding me why I hate the epic rules. You clearly knows well those, but for me everything that allows you to cast with a DC of 69 just makes no sense.

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 06:19 AM

For the third time, no proof that any of the spliced souls actually knew Epic Dispel.

V *powering up*: The time has come at last to peel back the shroud that has obscured my vision for so long. With the unrivaled power that I now possess, no secret shall remain hidden. For now, it is MY hand that will shatter the barrier that has prevented me from locating Haley Sunshine, for I shall wrest my knowledge from..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)

It seems pretty obvious that V was casting some epic dispel + scrying spell. "Peeling back the shroud" and "shattering the barrier" pretty explicitely implies that Cloister was going to be dispelled. And according to Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloister can only be defeated by epic magic. Ergo, Epic Dispel.

Same with Control Undead actually. And it's even more likely that V doesn't know the spell with Haer(t)a gone.

Once again, Control Undead is an extremely useful, common, and evil way of dealing with sentient undead. As an epic wizard, Ganonron probably knows at least all the spells from the PHB, and it's very likely that Jephthon has it among his spells known as well. That one of them has a Control Undead at hand is quite probable.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-09, 06:21 AM

I mean hell...a level 5 character could kill V in one round in a fair fight.

Go ahead, give us a scenario. It's gonna be fun. No Pun-Puns, though (keep it civil).

The level 5 character is a rogue with 2 weapon fighting. He get a potion of invisibility and a potion of haste. He uses alchemist fire on his blades for extra fire damage.
Surprise round: the rogue breaks invisibility and sneack attack V. Another sneack attack for haste.
First round: the rogue wins initiative thanks to high dex. He full sneack attack on V, plus an extra attack for haste. Total of 5 attacks before V gets to act.

Every attack is 1d6 base + 3 d6 sneack attack + 1d6 fire, + bonus STR + +1 weapons. Let's say 5 d6 +2. V got 1d4+1 hp per level, so 15 d6 have an even chance of dropping hir. It just takes that 3 attacks on 5 hit to get 15 d6 + 10, good chance of kill.
Suppose the rogue was an elf with 20 dex and weapon finesse, it has a 5 (for dex) + 3 (bab) + 1 (weapon enhancement)= +9 to hit. An extra +2 to the first attack because he was invisible. An extra +2 to all the other attack if the potion was of greater invisibility. V looses dex bonus to CA because flatfooted. Add in a potion of cat's grace to get another +2 to hit, and better chance of winning initiative, if you don't feel safe enough

And that's how a 5th level character could defeat a 14th level character without any equipment he's not supposed to have. Ok, tecnically sneacking on someone with invisibility that way is not a fair fight, but I don't think we were using that definition of fair.

EDIT: Forgot the -2 penalty to hit for two weapon fighting. Still enough bonuses. The better chance for V is winning initiative with a -4 on hir opponent. Feel free to make the rogue a human, to give him the extra feat improved initiative at the price of a -2 to dex.

kusje

2009-04-09, 06:29 AM

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 06:57 AM

I'm in a bit of a hurry now, so just a quickie.

The level 5 character is a rogue with 2 weapon fighting. He get a potion of invisibility and a potion of haste. He uses alchemist fire on his blades for extra fire damage. Surprise round:

Invisibility (unlike, for instance, Ethereal Jaunt) does not silence the character. V will still get to roll a Listen check vs. the rogue's Move Silently. With the Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm), V gets a +25 bonus on his roll. There is no surprise round.

More probably, he has Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm)active. Can't be surprised.

The simplest way of all - permanent See Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeinvisibility.htm)(a must for any decent wizard).

And the real deal behind approaching a high-level mage: it's not V, it's just V's Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). Which makes the entire fight irrelevant.

the rogue breaks invisibility and sneack attack V. Another sneack attack for haste.

Haste only gives an extra attack on a full attack action. During surprise round, characters can only make a standard action or a move action.

First round: the rogue wins initiative thanks to high dex.

Moment of Prescience gives V a +25 bonus on the Initiative check. There is no way the rogue can win.

Every attack is 1d6 base + 3 d6 sneack attack + 1d6 fire, + bonus STR + +1 weapons.

STR goes only to main hand. Off hand gets 1/2 STR.

Suppose the rogue was an elf with 20 dex and weapon finesse, it has a 5 (for dex) + 3 (bab) + 1 (weapon enhancement)= +9 to hit. An extra +2 to the first attack because he was invisible. An extra +2 to all the other attack if the potion was of greater invisibility.

You forgot to factor in the penalty for two-weapon fighting (-2 to attack).

V looses dex bonus to CA because flatfooted.

Foresight - can't be flat-footed, +2 to AC. Mage Armor: 1 hour/level duration (so always active), +4 to AC. Only with these, and with a +3 robe, V has an AC of 19 vs. the rogue's +9 attack. The rogue has only a 50% chance of landing a hit on V. After which, Stoneskin would reduce the damage by 10.

That's it for now. Will come back later.

P.S. Oh yeah, and V's flying. So just get out of range, and kill.

Lamech

2009-04-09, 07:14 AM

Dispelled by Epic Dispel. Case closed.

How big is the radius of this epic dispel? A city? If she can hit all of azure city you're arguing its really freaking big. And getting in range to dispel the anticipate teleport (or even cloister) is really dangerous, if Xykon has researched an emergency destroy based spell. 500-1500 points of damage from two miles away, yeah no.

Another problem would be divinination everyday + oracle if they get a "your in danger". And Xykon is quite probably mind blanked and therefore unscryable unless V has a well designed counter epic spell. Which she might not.

And yes if V is careful about Xykon's precautions and has the right spells she could beat him, but she hasn't been. When she attacked the dragon he could have time stopped before porting but didn't. She taunted the dragon when his family was in danger. She isn't being careful.

She might win, she might not, but there is no guarentee of victory. It would be unsurprising if V died attacking Xykon.

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 07:25 AM

And that's how a 5th level character could defeat a 14th level character without any equipment he's not supposed to have.

Weren't we talking about spliced V?

Anyway, mid-level mage tactic: Permanent See Invisibility (caster level 10, 1000xp cost) + Permanent Arcane Sight (CL 11, 1500 XP) + Overland Flight + Mage Armor + Stoneskin + Protection from Arrows. This is a very primitive array. See Invisibility & Arcane Sight are permanent, Stoneskin is 140 minutes, other spells have 14 hour durations.

In your Rogue example, the mage would feel the Rogue's magic items (weapons etc) in a 120 ft range, and would see through the Invisibility. Once alerted, he will fly out of the Rogue's range and unleash hell.

I'm gone.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-09, 07:27 AM

I'm in a bit of a hurry now, so just a quickie.

Invisibility (unlike, for instance, Ethereal Jaunt) does not silence the character. V will still get to roll a Listen check vs. the rogue's Move Silently. With the Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm), V gets a +25 bonus on his roll. There is no surprise round.

More probably, he has Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm)active. Can't be surprised.

The simplest way of all - permanent See Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeinvisibility.htm)(a must for any decent wizard).

And the real deal behind approaching a high-level mage: it's not V, it's just V's Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). Which makes the entire fight irrelevant.

Haste only gives an extra attack on a full attack action. During surprise round, characters can only make a standard action or a move action.

Moment of Prescience gives V a +25 bonus on the Initiative check. There is no way the rogue can win.

STR goes only to main hand. Off hand gets 1/2 STR.

You forgot to factor in the penalty for two-weapon fighting (-2 to attack).

Foresight - can't be flat-footed, +2 to AC. Mage Armor: 1 hour/level duration (so always active), +4 to AC. Only with these, and with a +3 robe, V has an AC of 19 vs. the rogue's +9 attack. The rogue has only a 50% chance of landing a hit on V. After which, Stoneskin would reduce the damage by 10.

That's it for now. Will come back later.

P.S. Oh yeah, and V's flying. So just get out of range, and kill.

Geez, I was supposing the rogue was sneaking on V while V was not expecting it. Don't tell me a wizard always run around with an 8th level and two 9th level spells always turned on, even when at home, or at his business, or relaxing?
1) I was supposing V is not under the soul splice. No moment of prescience, that is 8th level, or foresight or astral projection, that are 9th level. Even if V had 8th level spells, he may be unwilling to waste a slot of hir highest level for that spell, prefering something more world-shattering.
2) Except for moment of prescience that last 1 hour per level, the other spells have a limited duration. You don't turn them on if you don't suppose an ambush. Even if you are 20th level and prepare foresight, it last less than 4 hours. You don't have it active all day.
3) Permanent see invisibility is good, but we know V don't have it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) 8why cast the spell on the moment, otherwise?); still the rogue may just use normal hiding. Suppose that V is on holyday, in a crowded street. He's unlikely to notice someone coming after him.
4) Haste don't give an extra attack on surprise round, ok still 4 attacks and only 3 need to hit. If V is on holyday, I don't think he'll wander around full of protective items.

Of course, if the wizard expect it, the 5th level character has no chance at all. If we call the wizard and say "look, a guy is going to try to kill you in the next hour", ok, the wizard cast some spells that protects him and that's it. What, you want someone to kill a character that has 9 levels on him without even the advantage of surprise?

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-09, 08:41 AM

V *powering up*: The time has come at last to peel back the shroud that has obscured my vision for so long. With the unrivaled power that I now possess, no secret shall remain hidden. For now, it is MY hand that will shatter the barrier that has prevented me from locating Haley Sunshine, for I shall wrest my knowledge from..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)

It seems pretty obvious that V was casting some epic dispel + scrying spell. "Peeling back the shroud" and "shattering the barrier" pretty explicitely implies that Cloister was going to be dispelled. And according to Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloister can only be defeated by epic magic. Ergo, Epic Dispel.

Or he could have been about to do something completely different. We'll never know unless V does it in the next few strips. Personally it sounds more like V's usual yammering when it gets on a magic kick and ends up failing to deliver rather than any kind of proof.

Once again, Control Undead is an extremely useful, common, and evil way of dealing with sentient undead. As an epic wizard, Ganonron probably knows at least all the spells from the PHB, and it's very likely that Jephthon has it among his spells known as well. That one of them has a Control Undead at hand is quite probable.

'Probably' and 'Very likely' are all well and good but not definite. Any of them might know the spell but you have to admit that they might not and you'd be devising a strategy around resources that aren't available. Which is fine, but they need to be taken with salt.

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 10:07 AM

Geez, I was supposing the rogue was sneaking on V while V was not expecting it.

Yes, that's why I said V would roll a Listen check vs. the rogue's Move Silently.

And in DnD, you always expect danger. There are only different stages of preparedness.

Don't tell me a wizard always run around with an 8th level and two 9th level spells always turned on

That's what wizards do, if they want to stay alive. If a wizard has access to 5th level spells, he permanises Arcane Sight & See Invisibility, and has constant Overland Flight (1 hr/lvl). If he has access to Necromancy, he Magic Jars himself into, for instance, one of his own undead minions.
6th level - constant Shadow Walk + Non-detection (has enough 3rd level slots to afford).
7th level - makes a Simulacrum of himself, + constant Detect Scrying (has enough 4th level slots).
8th level - constant Moment of Prescience + Mind Blank.
9th level - permanent Astral Projection. Foresight when possible (e.g. Incantatrix free persist).

That's, like, the basics. Otherwise, you get screwed by anyone who can Scry and Teleport. Or, by 5th level rogues with a grudge. Or just by a particularly big and angry monster.

even when at home, or at his business, or relaxing?

That's when the bad DM comes for you - when you're relaxing.

And that's why I prefere my characters to become undead ASAP. No need to eat, sleep, or relax. Pursuit of power 24/7. It's the way to survive in the jungle.

1) I was supposing V is not under the soul splice.

Well, you should have said so. Reference to "V" by default means "current V", i.e. soulspliced.

Then, you said

And that's how a 5th level character could defeat a 14th level character

making a different impression of examining a case against a generic 14th level character (not necessarily V).

Decide on what you want to do.

No moment of prescience, that is 8th level, or foresight or astral projection, that are 9th level. Even if V had 8th level spells, he may be unwilling to waste a slot of hir highest level for that spell, prefering something more world-shattering.

Moment of Prescience, Foresight and Astral Projection are plenty shattering. With them, you're never surprised, you always win Initiative, and even if you get killed - you just wake up in your haven thanks to the Astral Projection.

And V actually cast Mind Blank already.

2) Except for moment of prescience that last 1 hour per level, the other spells have a limited duration.

Astral projection is permanent. Foresight can be persisted via Incantatrix cohort. Overland Flight and a ton of other spells are 1 hr/lvl.

You don't turn them on if you don't suppose an ambush.

I agree.

And since you always suppose an ambush, you keep them always on.

3) Permanent see invisibility is good, but we know V don't have it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)

Permanency takes only 2 rounds to cast. V has access to it (Universal), and to See Invisibility (Divination, unbannable).

8why cast the spell on the moment, otherwise?); still the rogue may just use normal hiding. Suppose that V is on holyday, in a crowded street. He's unlikely to notice someone coming after him.

Wizards in pursuit of CaTUAP don't usually take holidays. And why would V mingle with the rabble (and subject himself to unknown sneaky dangers)? Much safer and faster to just fly. As for noticing, again, Permanent Arcane Sight senses all magic items in 120 ft range.

4) Haste don't give an extra attack on surprise round, ok still 4 attacks and only 3 need to hit.

And even with the most basic armor bonuses, the rogue would get at best 2 hits.

Not to mention, the wizard is flying, so no melee attacks at all. And what does your rogue have in terms of ranged sneak attacking?

Anyway, if V feels himself in any sort of danger (like, Arcane Sight tingling), he just flies away (Run for 1 round at 40ft flight speed = 160 ft away), casts some buffs (Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility) and returns to fry the threat.

If V is on holyday, I don't think he'll wander around full of protective items.

Now this is where it gets ridiculous. Characters strive to always wear their best protective items. And the only protective item I mentioned was a +3 robe. We haven't ever seen V without his robe, have we? (well, except that one time when he got polymorphed).

Of course, if the wizard expect it, the 5th level character has no chance at all. If we call the wizard and say "look, a guy is going to try to kill you in the next hour", ok, the wizard cast some spells that protects him and that's it.

The point is, by 14th level a wizard doesn't need to be forewarned. He permanises some buffs, and casts others in the morning so that they last the entire day.

What, you want someone to kill a character that has 9 levels on him without even the advantage of surprise?

First, you're the one who wants to kill a character, and a wizard no less, that has 9 levels on your character.

Second, you said it should be a fair fight, right? I.e. no handicaps. What did you think, the wizard would just stand there and take it?

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-09, 10:25 AM

You should read the definition of sarcasm (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm). Its key quality is "Saying something that is opposite of what is intended to be meant", which was prominently featured in your many sarcastic remarks.

Yes and "Oh really?" is not a straight question for most people. Seth and Amy from Saturday Night Live are famous for their "Really!?!" bit which is very sarcastic.

Really, if you get thrown out of balance by something as innocent as that, I do not envy your existence in the internets.
Well no I don't get thrown off by anyone using sarcasm. I use it myself as you know. However, as you know, some people complain when others use sarcasm.

This was just a friendly reminder. You may take it for what you will.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-09, 10:56 AM

Yes, that's why I said V would roll a Listen check vs. the rogue's Move Silently.

And in DnD, you always expect danger. There are only different stages of preparedness.

That's what wizards do, if they want to stay alive. If a wizard has access to 5th level spells, he permanises Arcane Sight & See Invisibility, and has constant Overland Flight (1 hr/lvl). If he has access to Necromancy, he Magic Jars himself into, for instance, one of his own undead minions.
6th level - constant Shadow Walk + Non-detection (has enough 3rd level slots to afford).
7th level - makes a Simulacrum of himself, + constant Detect Scrying (has enough 4th level slots).
8th level - constant Moment of Prescience + Mind Blank.
9th level - permanent Astral Projection. Foresight when possible (e.g. Incantatrix free persist).

That's, like, the basics. Otherwise, you get screwed by anyone who can Scry and Teleport. Or, by 5th level rogues with a grudge. Or just by a particularly big and angry monster.

That's when the bad DM comes for you - when you're relaxing.

And that's why I prefere my characters to become undead ASAP. No need to eat, sleep, or relax. Pursuit of power 24/7. It's the way to survive in the jungle.

Well, you should have said so. Reference to "V" by default means "current V", i.e. soulspliced.

Then, you said

making a different impression of examining a case against a generic 14th level character (not necessarily V).

Decide on what you want to do.

Moment of Prescience, Foresight and Astral Projection are plenty shattering. With them, you're never surprised, you always win Initiative, and even if you get killed - you just wake up in your haven thanks to the Astral Projection.

And V actually cast Mind Blank already.

Astral projection is permanent. Foresight can be persisted via Incantatrix cohort. Overland Flight and a ton of other spells are 1 hr/lvl.

I agree.

And since you always suppose an ambush, you keep them always on.

Permanency takes only 2 rounds to cast. V has access to it (Universal), and to See Invisibility (Divination, unbannable).

Wizards in pursuit of CaTUAP don't usually take holidays. And why would V mingle with the rabble (and subject himself to unknown sneaky dangers)? Much safer and faster to just fly. As for noticing, again, Permanent Arcane Sight senses all magic items in 120 ft range.

And even with the most basic armor bonuses, the rogue would get at best 2 hits.

Not to mention, the wizard is flying, so no melee attacks at all. And what does your rogue have in terms of ranged sneak attacking?

Anyway, if V feels himself in any sort of danger (like, Arcane Sight tingling), he just flies away (Run for 1 round at 40ft flight speed = 160 ft away), casts some buffs (Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility) and returns to fry the threat.

Now this is where it gets ridiculous. Characters strive to always wear their best protective items. And the only protective item I mentioned was a +3 robe. We haven't ever seen V without his robe, have we? (well, except that one time when he got polymorphed).

The point is, by 14th level a wizard doesn't need to be forewarned. He permanises some buffs, and casts others in the morning so that they last the entire day.

First, you're the one who wants to kill a character, and a wizard no less, that has 9 levels on your character.

Second, you said it should be a fair fight, right? I.e. no handicaps. What did you think, the wizard would just stand there and take it?

I could think of other ways. Those ways would involve spells that mask the auras of magic items, choosing the 8-4 hours of the day while most spells are down, or eventually a sroll of anti magic field and a character a bit higher in level.
You could then think of precautions the wizard can use to protect against it.

I prefer to stop the excalation right now. My point is that with surprise, a good preparation, and some luck, it is possible to kill a much stronger character. You seem to agree. Your point is that with the right preparation a wizard can be extremely powerful and overcome his defensive weakness, and on that I agree. No point going on for details. It was fun for a while, but now it starts get boring.

Still, the best defense for a wizard is a party to protect you, and a friendly cleric ready to cast resurrect in case something goes wrong.

Killer Angel

2009-04-09, 11:38 AM

That's what wizards do, if they want to stay alive. If a wizard has access to 5th level spells, he permanises Arcane Sight & See Invisibility, and has constant Overland Flight (1 hr/lvl). If he has access to Necromancy, he Magic Jars himself into, for instance, one of his own undead minions.
6th level - constant Shadow Walk + Non-detection (has enough 3rd level slots to afford).

Well, we're not talking about a generic wizard, we're talking 'bout Vaarsuvius.
He normally (aka not under soul splice) HAS access to 5° and 6° lev. spells, and he don't use the above tactics. He didn't have permenent spells active, neither costant shadow walk.
And even now, under S.P., he casted only Overland fl. and Mind blank.

Please note that I don't critic in any way the typical spell selection of the typical wizard you posted: those defensive/utility spells are good and solid.

JJ48

2009-04-09, 11:54 AM

We all seem to be forgetting that EVERYONE in the OotS tends to be abysmal at Spot/Listen checks. So someone being able to sneak up on a generic 14th level wizard? Highly unlikely, without being of fair level and ability themselves. Someone being able to sneak up on V, specifically? Highly PROBABLE, especially if it results in a joke and/or plot twist.

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 12:01 PM

Well, we're not talking about a generic wizard, we're talking 'bout Vaarsuvius.

Actually, there was this:

And that's how a 5th level character could defeat a 14th level character

But sure, V it is.

He normally (aka not under soul splice) HAS access to 5° and 6° lev. spells, and he don't use the above tactics.

V is certainly intelligent enough to recognise the value of such tactics. And there were examples of this logic in the comic: e.g. Xykon casting Overland Flight on himself in the morning before launching towards Azure City; V being under the effect of Overland Flight ever since he left the fleet; Xykon casting Cloister; even Xykon Dominating the MiTD, - these are all examples of foresight and intelligent preparedness on behalf of the mages.

Anyway, I won't even attempt to play Vaarsuvius as Rich would play him. I don't claim to have full knowledge of the intricacies of the author's considerations (which go way beyond "winning DnD"). All I can offer in respect of this challenge is playing V how I would play him, given the nature and qualities of his character and circumstances.

And even now, under S.P., he casted only Overland fl. and Mind blank.

By S.P. I suppose you mean Soul Splice? Because he cast Overland Flight when he was still on the ship. That's how he got to the little island.

Undead Prince

2009-04-09, 12:59 PM

I could think of other ways. Those ways would involve spells that mask the auras of magic items,

Sure, there's Nystul's Magic Aura, which can make an item appear non-magical. The problem is, in this case the spell itself should register as an active magical effect, and be detected by Arcane Sight. But even if you read the description in such a way that it is not registered by Arcane Sight, you'd have to cast it on every magic item in your possession, and be under no spell effects.

Even if the rogue spends the money to cast it on both his swords, and throws away all his other magic items, he'll still set off the Arcane Sight alarm. Because, as you surely know, potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm) and he drank potions of Invisibility and Haste.

So your rogue is dead twice already.

choosing the 8-4 hours of the day while most spells are down

Which the wizard would certainly be spending in a very safe place. E.g. Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm), or Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm).

, or eventually a sroll of anti magic field and a character a bit higher in level.

Anti-magic field? Bah. It's only a 10ft radius emanation centered on the caster. Just turn invisible and wait until it wears off, then kill the caster.

You could then think of precautions the wizard can use to protect against it.

No need for any special precautions. Just part of the routine.

I prefer to stop the excalation right now.

I'm not even escalating. You escalated, and I responded within the same setup.

My point is that with surprise, a good preparation, and some luck, it is possible to kill a much stronger character. You seem to agree.

Well, the challenge was a bit more radical. To the effect of:

It's really not that complicated. In a fair fight, whoever wins initiative likely wins the fight. I mean hell...a level 5 character could kill V in one round in a fair fight.

Since you then offered an example of how you think a 5th level rogue could kill V, I took it as entry into that challenge.

What I tried to do, was to show you that it's not that simple. The enemy won't be standing naked in the middle of the street waiting for you to stab him. It really is quite complicated to kill a 14th level wizard, and you seemed not to realise even the most basic ramifications of such an attempt.

To make it easier, I can offer a metaphore. Imagine V as a CR-equivalent monster, let's say, a Mature Adult Black Dragon. Overland Flight is his wings, Fireball is his Breath Weapon, protective buffs are his Natural Armor, Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance, Enchantments are his Frightful Presence etc. When you plan to fight a dragon, you should always take into account these abilities. Well, same thing when fighting a wizard. Only wizard is more versatile and more dangerous than dragon.

Your point is that with the right preparation a wizard can be extremely powerful and overcome his defensive weakness, and on that I agree.

Again, you're missing the point. It's right preparation not in terms of "preparing for a particular encounter with a particular creature". It's right preparation in terms of universal preparedness. A 14th level wizard will always be extremely powerful, and not an easy opponent to defeat.

Still, the best defense for a wizard is a party to protect you, and a friendly cleric ready to cast resurrect in case something goes wrong.

A PC is always his own best friend. You shouldn't, and can't really, count on party members to shield you from danger and save you from peril. Other PCs have their own agendas, their own styles of play and preferences. Case in point? Belkar "defending the casters" during the first battle with Xykon. And I actually agree with him - if clerics and wizards are supposedly so powerful, why should other characters always be protecting their hides?

Way to proceed? Your own minions. In the beginning, a few mercenary warriors come cheap and are almost as good as Fighters. As you gain levels, Command Undead, Animate Dead + Awaken Undead + Corpsecrafter gives you excellent tanks, mounts and scouts. Dominate Person gives you casters and crafters. Later on, Create Undead [Ju-Ju Zombie] gives you undead slaves with full class levels and template bonuses. Leadership gives you an excellent Cohort and lots of Followers. Don't forget golems with their magic immunities. And there you go, a one-man army.

In fact, IMHO Xykon is precisely such a one-man army. We have Redcloak as his Cohort, the Hobos as his (or Redcloak's) Followers, the undead as his, well, undead animated minions, MiTD as his Dominated monster, Tsukiko as his hired gun, etc.

That is the way.

Raging Gene Ray

2009-04-09, 01:07 PM

In fact, IMHO Xykon is precisely such a one-man army. We have...the Hobos as his (or Redcloak's) Followers,

Are they stabbin' Hobos or singin' Hobos? Do they have an elemental alignment?

Omegonthesane

2009-04-10, 01:48 AM

Long discourse on how every wizard who reaches 14th level is going to be prepared to defeat or at least escape many threats all the time

In a strip like OotS, where the characters are characters in themselves and not puppets of players or the GM, cohorts that have brains are no better than PCs as meat shields - worse, actually, because they can't take as many hits before falling on you. Furthermore not every wizard has access to necromancy and undead creatures, though that depends on the campaign - D&D itself can't decide whether or not necromantic magic is evil in and of itself, leaving that to the DM.

Plus, if you have to split the party, at least PCs can take care of themselves better than cohorts. :P

Killer Angel

2009-04-10, 01:57 AM

Anyway, I won't even attempt to play Vaarsuvius as Rich would play him. I don't claim to have full knowledge of the intricacies of the author's considerations (which go way beyond "winning DnD"). All I can offer in respect of this challenge is playing V how I would play him, given the nature and qualities of his character and circumstances.

I can buy this and I've no objection. Vaarsuvius in OOTS didn't outshine too much h** companions.

By S.P. I suppose you mean Soul Splice? Because he cast Overland Flight when he was still on the ship. That's how he got to the little island.

Yep, my mistake: O.F. was active before the soul splice.

Dagren

2009-04-10, 11:23 AM

the_tick_rules

2009-04-10, 11:40 AM

Yes, she probably is. But she's to borrow a phrase, treating the symptoms not the disease. Instead of fixing everything xykon made wrong just remove xykon.

Undead Prince

2009-04-10, 12:05 PM

While Undead Prince details fine precautions for a cautious Wizard, I have to agree that V as portrayed isn't a particularly cautious Wizard. Whether she'll develop into one or into a dead Wizard remains to be seen, although I hope she's learned her lesson after her recent encounter with the dragon.

That particular encounter, and the soul splice, did seem to make V smarter and more efficient. IMHO, however, to a large extent it is due to the author paying more attention to this character, and being less concerned with overshadowing other characters or endangering the plot.

There is no doubt that OoTS PCs are not being played optimally, from a powergamer point of view. It is just a feature of the comic, and probably gives it a more humorous and sympathetic touch. Powergamer PCs are often too coldly efficient to be very sympathetic (personal experience here).

But in this particular arc, V has some of the limits removed, and gets an opportunity to shine as a wizard. That's why I like it so much (it is my favourite arc ATM, with the storming of Azure City close second).

One thing I didn't understand about the aforementioned preparations I didn't understand, though, was the use of Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). The way I read it, it works great in the other planes, but it never mentions being able to project to another location on the Material; am I misreading the rules again, or am I missing something?

You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

All planes, including the Plane of Shadow and the Ethereal Plane, are coexistent with the Astral Plane, which envelops the whole cosmology like a cloud.

Astral Projection is the stuff, man.

Theodoriph

2009-04-10, 01:49 PM

But there are ways to give yourself the Initiative (e.g. Moment of Prescience), or get a Surprise Round where the enemy doesn't get to act at all (e.g. Ethereal Jaunt + Teleport), or screw Initiative altogether (Celerity), or make yourself immune to the enemy's etc.

Go ahead, give us a scenario. It's gonna be fun. No Pun-Puns, though (keep it civil).

Celerity and such are nice options. Unfortunately, you don't know if V has it. You also don't know if Xykon has it. So it becomes pointless to argue with it. Since I specified a fair fight, there are no buffs allowed prior to the start of the fight (e.g. Moment of Prescience ... though from my reading of it, it can't help you with initiative). In short...without knowing for sure what V and Xykon can do...you're basically left in the situation where initiative wins.

As for my scenario...

Level 5 scenario:

Two combatants in an arena, 20 feet apart. No advance preparation (re: buffs or anything of the sort). One is V as per the Class and Level Geekery thread (plus whatever information we've recently gained from the comic regarding the splice and whatnot)

Anyway, here's my take...

I'll give V credit for knowing any spell in the PHB. Anything outside the PHB, V does not have until proven otherwise in comic. To me, that view makes the most sense given that the majority of the comic (e.g. spells, abilities) is based on core (it's more accessible that way). Almost all of Vs spells are core with a few homebrew ones thrown in for copyright/joke reasons. I'm not sure if she has one that comes from a non-core source. So...given Rich's tendencies to remain within core, no non-core spells that V has not already been demonstrated to know. :smalltongue:

So V...has:

4hp + (13*2.5) hp
36.5 hp

According to class and level geekery, her AC is likely around 10 due to having no bonus to dex and no armor boosting items that have thus far been revealed.

Now since I'm only level 5, I have to one-shot V. There are a few ways to do that without being overly cheesy.

However, based on recent plot developments, I think a paladin has the best flavour (if any DM would not allow a smite evil against V atm...well, they're crazy :smalltongue:)

Level 5 Human Paladin: Charging Smite Variant

I'm not wearing any armor and am wielding a masterwork great sword.

Strength: 18
Charisma: 20 (+3 bonus from an item, +1 from level 4)

Smite: 1 point per paladin level
Charging Smite (Player's Handbook II): 2 extra points of damage per paladin level when you smite while making a charge attack (take this ability instead of a special mount at level 5)

Feats:

Power Attack
Divine Might (Defenders of the Faith and others) (Free Action: Turn attempt for damage equal to Cha mod)
Divine Metamagic (Defenders of the Faith and others) (Quicken)

Weapons:

Great Sword

If I lose initiative....I die hard. :smallbiggrin:

If I win initiative...my to hit will be 8 (4 strength + 1 Masterwork + 2 charge + 1 bab)...basically I hit on anything except a critical fail.

Quicken cast Divine Sacrifice - Trade 10 hitpoints for an extra 5d6 damage (Avg. 17.5)
Great Sword - 2d6 (Avg. 7)
Strength Bonus - +6 damage
Power Attack 4 - +8 damage
Divine Might - +5 damage
Smite - +5 damage
Charging Smite - +10 damage

Guaranteed Non-Dice Damage: 34
Guaranteed Dice Damage: 7
Average Dice Damage - 24.5
Max Dice Damage: 42

Guaranteed Damage: 41
Average Damage: 58.5

Even my guaranteed minimum amount of damage is enough to kill poor V.

Now, if we're generous and give V the max constitution the Geekery thread allows (12), then she'd have 50 hitpoints.

58.5 > 50

I'd have to roll well well below average (2.36 per die as opposed to an average of 3.5 per die) to not kill her, but it's possible in that case that she could survive. =)

In conclusion, unless I'm forgetting something from the player's handbook which would let V steal initiative, then in a fair fight, it's not too hard to imagine V getting clocked by a vastly inferior foe.

P.S. And to head off people grumbling about Celerity...celerity isn't core. It's from the PHBII :smallsmile: (and shouldn't be in D&D at all...sometimes the urge to murder the developers is soooooo hard to resist)

P.P.S. For those who claim it's no fair that V is core-only and I can use whatever I want....blame the Giant for making V as he is. If I were going up against an optimized level 14 wizard (with splice), there's no way I'd win. But V is far from optimized, both in her construction, and spell selection (and equipment purchasing). :smalltongue:

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-10, 03:46 PM

That particular encounter, and the soul splice, did seem to make V smarter and more efficient. IMHO, however, to a large extent it is due to the author paying more attention to this character, and being less concerned with overshadowing other characters or endangering the plot..

I don't know, it feels more like V is being its usual self just at a much higher level. V just likes to show off, hence all of its flashy spells. Heck, it's not like it went into the fight all buffed up. It did get hit with an acid breath before taking the time to buff up.

Undead Prince

2009-04-10, 04:22 PM

Celerity and such are nice options. Unfortunately, you don't know if V has it. You also don't know if Xykon has it. So it becomes pointless to argue with it.

First, I never used Celerity in the scenarios. It was just an example of how Initiative could be defeated or circumvented.

Second, by your logic, it is also pointless to argue that V doesn't have Celerity (or any other nonbanned wiz/sorc spell). Every now and then we discover new spells that he knows when he uses them, but no one can claim to know the true extent of his spellbook. Some spells he knows 100% (those he used), others he doesn't know 100% (e.g. banned schools), but everything else is fair speculation, considering he's a Wizard and has tons of books on magic.

Since I specified a fair fight, there are no buffs allowed prior to the start of the fight. Two combatants in an arena, 20 feet apart. No advance preparation (re: buffs or anything of the sort). Level 5 Human Paladin: Charging Smite Variant... I'm not wearing any armor and am wielding a masterwork great sword.

Oh, good one 8=)) Yeah, a caster stripped of all his buffs, within 20 ft of a charging melee guy wielding a Greatsword 8=)) Real fair 8=)))

Seriously though, this is silly. An encounter does not begin with rolling Initiative. It begins with determining awareness.

And because my V has Permanent Arcane Sight, he sensed your Paladin's magic items in 120 ft. Since your Paladin didn't bother hiding, he's in plain sight, and obviously a threat (anything with capacity to hurt is a threat). At this point, if they roll Initiative and Paladin wins (which is basically a 50/50 chance since you didn't bother to invest in Dexterity), the most he can do is Run up to V. He won't have any actions left to attack. And V will kill him.

Not to mention, V has Overland Flight. So he wouldn't even be standing on the ground to begin with. How good is your pally with vertical jumps? 8=)))

(e.g. Moment of Prescience ... though from my reading of it, it can't help you with initiative).

It gives a +25 on an opposed ability check. Initiative is an opposed DEX check.

Feats:

Power Attack
Divine Might (Defenders of the Faith and others) (Free Action: Turn attempt for damage equal to Cha mod)
Divine Metamagic (Defenders of the Faith and others) (Quicken)

Divine Metamagic requires the Metamagic feat it applies to, so DMM: Quicken costs 2 feats, => 4 feats total. As a 5th level Human paladin, you have only 3 feats.

And Defenders of the Faith is 3.0. We've upgraded to 3.5 back in OoTS #1. Pick up Complete Divine + Errata + FAQ.

If I lose initiative....I die hard. :smallbiggrin:

If you win initiative... you also die hard :smallbiggrin:

If I win initiative...my to hit will be 8 (4 strength + 1 Masterwork + 2 charge + 1 bab)...basically I hit on anything except a critical fail.

You hit on anything with an AC of 10. I.e. a naked peasant with 10 Dex. Vs. someone with Mage Armor and a +3 robe (the barest minimum for V), you only have a 50/50 chance. And Charge gives only 1 attack. Is your paladin willing to play Russian Roulette with a half-loaded revolver?

Wait. Trying to charge a flying 14th level wizard who senses you from at least 120ft? Forget half-loaded - fully loaded and cocked.

I'll give V credit for knowing any spell in the PHB. Anything outside the PHB, V does not have until proven otherwise in comic. To me, that view makes the most sense given that the majority of the comic (e.g. spells, abilities) is based on core (it's more accessible that way). Almost all of Vs spells are core with a few homebrew ones thrown in for copyright/joke reasons. I'm not sure if she has one that comes from a non-core source.

I can take that as a challenge. However, I think it is not doing justice to V's knowledge. Tsukiko, a far less competent and specialised mage, had no trouble looking up non-core spells which specifically suited her purposes. While creating his undead, Redcloak browsed entirely obscure splatbooks, some of which weren't even updated to 3.5 (BoVD). During his trance-deprived period, V leafed through tons of magical literature, and even developed his own original spells (Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger). I think it would be totally unfair to claim V doesn't know anything outside PHB.

P.S. And to head off people grumbling about Celerity...celerity isn't core. It's from the PHBII :smallsmile:

PHB II is pretty much core in my books (bad pun). Sure, the group is free to exclude it, but so can parts of core be excluded (Polymorph anyone?)

(and shouldn't be in D&D at all...sometimes the urge to murder the developers is soooooo hard to resist)

Have you actually played with Celerity? Not sarcastic, honest question here. Sure, breaking Initiative is cool. Being incapacitated for an entire turn after taking your single standard action? Not too cool. If you can take out all your foes in 1 standard action, then great - but if you're so powerful (or the enemy so weak), there likely wasn't so much need for Celerity in the first place. If you use that one action to run away (e.g. Teleport), you've basically lost the fight.

P.P.S. For those who claim it's no fair that V is core-only and I can use whatever I want....blame the Giant for making V as he is. If I were going up against an optimized level 14 wizard (with splice), there's no way I'd win. But V is far from optimized, both in her construction, and spell selection (and equipment purchasing). :smalltongue:

Yeah, V is unoptimized. But still, if played correctly, he can be very powerful. After all, a lot of the really unbalanced stuff comes from the PHB.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-10, 04:50 PM

As for my scenario...

Level 5 scenario:

Two combatants in an arena, 20 feet apart. No advance preparation (re: buffs or anything of the sort). One is V as per the Class and Level Geekery thread (plus whatever information we've recently gained from the comic regarding the splice and whatnot)

Too bad this is not a realistic situation. A wizard is likely to have some buffing spells always on.

On other topics, astral projection seems good, but it says "very few things can destroy a silver cord". Yet, those few things can kill you without saving throw, initiative, without you even noticing. And if you're a 17th level wizard, and already has buff you like undead prince suggested (I would consider using most of my slots to have defensive spells on me all day, plus making other defensive spells permanent on me, to be excessively paranoic; but seeing as a high level wizard without buffs can be killed by a low level character, and a high level wizard is likely to have made quite a few enemies, I admit it is more safe to stay buffed), even with the best preparation nothing short of 10-12th level can hope to have a chance against you. And if said enemy of yours is high level enough, he can find a way to destroy a silvery cord. You may activate it before an important battle and for the strict time necessary, so that an enemy don't have time to kill you before you return in your body, but having it always cast is very dangerous.

Back on the topic of V against Xykon, if V can cast moment of prescience, nothing say Xykon can't (whe don't know all of his 8th level spells). And being Xykon epic, an epic dispel may have a relevant chance of failing to dispel one of his effects, depending on the exact wording of the dispel and the functioning of the soul splice (if caster levels are cumulative, and epic dispel gives a bonus to dispel check equal to caster level, no problem. If caster levels don't stack, or epic dispel is limited to +30, Xykon stands a decent chance). Then with moment of prescience it would be a fair initiative roll, and the winner would likely win the fight. In the most favorable scenario for Xykon, the likelyhood is somewhere between 1/10 to 1/5 for Xykon, so the likely winner would still be V, but there's risk involved.

And we never saw V running around full of buffs. V uses most slots for offensive, which makes hir capable of sustaining multiple encounters, but allows a 5th level rogue to sneak on him and kill him at any moment, with no particular problem.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-10, 05:17 PM

(e.g. Moment of Prescience ... though from my reading of it, it can't help you with initiative).
It gives a +25 on an opposed ability check. Initiative is an opposed DEX check
Now that this is mentioned, I'm not so sure. It isn't mentioned as an opposed check, I just controlled. If we see it as some characters making opposite attempts to act first, then we can consider it an opposite check, but if we consider it a check to determine initiative order, we can consider it to not be an opposite check.
Unless it was mentioned someplace else, it is up to the DM interpretation.

And because my V has Permanent Arcane Sight, he sensed your Paladin's magic items in 120 ft. Since your Paladin didn't bother hiding, he's in plain sight, and obviously a threat (anything with capacity to hurt is a threat)
I suppose your wizard will never enter a tavern, since it is full of threats. And will keep the distance with every adventurer he encounters. It can be done, and from a power player point of view it is a useful safety measure.
But my wizard, knowing he will need to wander around full of magic stuff and buffs, will have to cast so many spell on himself every day to make every deseased guy blush (instead of "take pill every six hours", cast spell A every X hours, spell B every Y hours... spell R every AARG!), will not be able to just wander around doing his business without all that stuff, and will need to sleep and spend some time in an extraplanar space because the protective spells don't last enough to protect him all day, and shall not approach anyone with magic items, and never fly less than 50 feet above ground...
My wizard will leave magic school and go back to the farm.

Undead Prince

2009-04-10, 06:01 PM

Now here's a little morsel of what could be done with V.

As a 14th level elf wizard, he gets 7 feats to choose. The Geekery has 3 feats accounted for (Empower, Maximise, Quicken; all others are race/class).

He could use 3 of the remaining feats on Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Magic Items, and Craft Construct (MM, core). I would invest 3 skill points in Craft (sculpt) or (stonemasonry) (class skills for Wizard), in order to reliably beat a DC of 17 (total bonus on check = 3 + 4 (Greater Heroism) +10 (take 10 for calm circumstances = 17).

And I would build myself aGreater Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm).

Greater Stone Golem

Size/Type: Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 42d10+40 (271 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 27 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +21 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: +31/+52
Attack: Slam +42 melee (4d8+13) = 32 average damage
Full Attack: 2 slams +42 melee (4d8+13)
With Haste and a +4 STR item this becomes:
3 slams at +44 melee (4d8 + 15) = 102 damage per round

Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Slow
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +14
Abilities: Str 37 (41 w/item), Dex 7, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: —

Slow (Su)

A stone golem can use a slow effect, as the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slow.htm), as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 7 rounds, requiring a DC 17 Will save to negate. The save DC is Constitution-based.
A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weighs around 32,000 pounds. It resembles a typical stone golem in all respects, except that the Will save DC is 31 against its slow ability.

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

A stone golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance.

A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.
Traits

A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* No Constitution score.
* Low-light vision.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
* Cannot heal damage on their own, but often can be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
* Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
* Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
* Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the table.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Constructs do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

V has access to all the prerequisite spells, and can have the skills & feats.

Gold cost: As a 14th level char, V should have about 150k gold (DMG p.135). Since he doesn't have any magic items to speak of except his circlet and possibly robe, he should be able to afford to pay the required cost.

XP cost: if V is 14th level, his XP can be anywhere between 91,000 and 105,000. A Greater Stone Golem costs 7,640 XP, i.e. roughly half the distance between 14 and 15 level. Therefore, it is very likely that V can make at least one without even losing a level. And even if he goes over the brim, XP is very easy to reap, especially with the help of his new Greater Stone Golem.

Now just install a nice comfy armored cabin with slits for spellcasting, high up on the Golem's shoulders.

The Golem is Huge, and 18 ft high. A Medium character has a vertical reach of 8 ft, about 11ft if jumping up normally (DC 10 Jump check, move action; PHB p.77). To jump up to 18 ft, the Paladin would have to beat a Jump DC of 40 (following the PHB's +4 DC/foot progression), which is quite impossible. Not to mention, normal jumping up does not involve making any attacks. So, V is quite safe from melee.

The armored cabin would give V Improved Cover: +8 AC, +4 Reflex Saves, +10 Hide check, and Improved Evasion (PHB p. 152), and the ability to gain Total Cover by simply dropping to the floor of the cabin (a free action). If we are still looking at the Paladin example, suppose he draws a bow and attempts to stick an arrow into V. His ranged attack would be at a +6 bonus (5 base +1 Dex), vs. V's AC 25 (10 base +3 robe +4 Mage Armor +8 Improved Cover), i.e. only a 10% chance of hitting. If V made himself an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (only 1,000 gp to make), the chance of hitting becomes 5% (only on a natural 20).

Since the Golem does not tire, it can Run without being exhausted, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with a total speed of 80 ft/round (20*4), the same speed as Overland Flight (which can't use Run, only Hustle, => 40ft*2 = 80ft/round). Nice 32,000 pound express train, which can also go under water (Golems don't need to breathe).

To buff a Stone Golem, just use a Stone to Flesh prior to the buff. Fly, Haste, Displacement, Invisibility etc. - they all make the Golem even more fun. If you have an Incantatrix Cohort, you can Persist those effects through "Metamagic Effect" (even though some of them are not normally persistable). Persistent Fly gives it a speed of 120ft per round, and with Persistent Invisibility no one's gonna trouble you during travel.

Also note that the Golem can freely use constant-effect magic items - things with bonuses to Strength, Speed and AC would be nice, and we can craft them ourselves thanks to the Craft Magic Item feat. For instance:
Boots:
Boots of Skating give +10ft enhancement bonus to speed, and cost only 3,500 gp to craft: now the Golem can run at 120ft/round. Another option is Sandals of the Light Step, which cost 4,500, but in addition to +10 speed, they let the Golem ignore any extra movement costs for difficult terrain, and he leaves no tracks.
Face
Blindfold of True Darkness (CL 3, 4,500 gp, 360 xp, See Invisibility) gives Blindsight in 30ft, and protects against all Gaze and sight-based attacks (e.g. Glitterdust, which overcomes Magic Immunity). Since the Golem doesn't have any Listen/Spot skills, this is extremely useful to spot all hiding/invisible opponents.
Arms, Rings
Bracers of Armor +2 and Ring of Protection +1 are a nice cost-effective way to boost the Golem's AC up to 30. Now anyone with an attack bonus of less than 11 can only hit the Golem on a natural 20 (i.e. 5% chance).

Waist

Belt of Giant Strength (8,000 gp to craft): +4 STR

The Golem is also a very efficient carrier. With 41 STR (37 base + 4 item) and Huge size, its Light Load (allowing for flight at full speed) is 9792 lbs. Heavy Load (Fly hustle speed drops to 80 ft/round, land hustle speed to 30ft/round (60 ft/round w/Persistent Haste) allows it to carry 29440 lbs. That's a lot of weight. It could, for instance, easily carry around dozens of undead warriors in full armor. Flying and invisible. Railroad express? How about Stealth Jumbo Jet dropship!

If you want to control the Golem remotely (from any distance on the same plane), put one of your intelligent minions (Cohort, Follower etc.) into the cabin, order the Golem to obey his commands, and forge a Permanent Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/TelepathicBond.htm) with the "pilot".

Finally, the Golem is incredibly easy to heal. With his AC 30, DR 10/adamantine and immunity to nearly all damaging spells he's unlikely to be harmed at all, but if he is, a single Transmute Mud to Rock spell heals ALL of its lost hitpoints. That's right - one 5th level spell heals all damage, up to the Golem's 271 hp total.

With a toy like this, V's survivability and offensive power skyrockets. For instance, it could have put up a very good fight against the ABD. And all it took was 1 feat (the other 2 craft feats pay for themselves), 3 skill points, and some money/XP well within his means.

Undead Prince

2009-04-10, 06:40 PM

Now that this is mentioned, I'm not so sure. It isn't mentioned as an opposed check, I just controlled. If we see it as some characters making opposite attempts to act first, then we can consider it an opposite check, but if we consider it a check to determine initiative order, we can consider it to not be an opposite check.
Unless it was mentioned someplace else, it is up to the DM interpretation.

Initiative is a Dexterity check. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm)

The PHB gives us two types of checks: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm) vs. a fixed DC (obviously not our case), and Opposed Checks:

Opposed Checks

An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins.

When two actors roll for Initiative, they roll a DEX check and compare the results. The higher result wins Initiative, the lower loses. When more than two actors are involved, each makes an opposed check against each of the others, and the result is the Initiative order.

It seems very straightforward to me. Initiative is an opposed Dexterity check.

I suppose your wizard will never enter a tavern, since it is full of threats.

Why should he go to the tavern himself, when it's much safer, and very easy, to just send a Simulacrum or other minion with Rary's Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/TelepathicBond.htm) (possibly permanised)?

And will keep the distance with every adventurer he encounters.

Certainly. Besides, since a wizard of such level travels by either flying or teleporting, it's quite unlikely he'll ever encounter random adventurers.

It can be done, and from a power player point of view it is a useful safety measure.

It's easily done, and quite an indispensable safety measure. I mean, just going into a tavern full of unsavory types ready to stick a knife into anyone for a few gold? Not my idea of good sense.

But my wizard, knowing he will need to wander around full of magic stuff and buffs, will have to cast so many spell on himself every day to make every deseased guy blush (instead of "take pill every six hours", cast spell A every X hours, spell B every Y hours... spell R every AARG!), will not be able to just wander around doing his business without all that stuff

All the basic spells I enumerated above are either permanised (i.e. don't require recasting, ever), or have 1hr/lvl duration, i.e. 14 hours for a 14 level wizard without any caster level increasers. These spells also take no more than a round to cast. So, all it takes is spending less than one minute buffing in the morning, and you're set for the day. No more annoying than brushing your teeth. You do brush your teeth every morning, right?

and will need to sleep and spend some time in an extraplanar space

Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion is a very comfy extraplanar space 8=)) And Rope Trick ain't too bad, either. Beats sleeping in a bedroll on cold ground!

shall not approach anyone with magic items

Well, not unless you want to kill the owner and loot the corpse 8=) and you probably want that 8=))

and never fly less than 50 feet above ground..

Why would you fly less than 50 ft above ground? Gotta stay clear of the trees & buildings, y/know.

Anyway, if you don't like flying, one of the alternatives is taking the Greater Stone Golem Express 8=))

My wizard will leave magic school and go back to the farm.

Guess he's better off as a peasant, if he's so lazy and has so little taste for power 8=))

Undead Prince

2009-04-10, 07:17 PM

V Cont'd:

The fourth of the available feats we'll spend on Leadership. This nets us a 12th level Cohort and a ton of Followers.

The Cohort may be a Cleric, for massive Undead action, or an Incantatrix, for massive Persistent Metamagic action. In fact, if the Cohort also takes Leadership, we can have both.

Now, time to Polymorph into something nice, like a Young Gold Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm). OoTS already has Shapechange, so why not Polymorph? Persist the Polymorph with your Incantatrix. V gets 25 STR, 17 CON, +13 Natural Armor, +28 hp (bonus from extra CON), 4 natural attacks at +14/+9 bonus, and, very importantly, an incredible Speed array: land 60 ft., fly 120 ft., swim 60 ft. Who needs that Overland Flight or Expeditious Retreat now?

Note that the Persistent Polymorph would also be automatically affecting your Familiar. Yep, you now have a Young Gold Dragon familiar. And, of course, the Incantatrix and her familiar would also be polymorphed. Four 12-14HD dragons, at the cost of two 4th level spells.

Next step - Undead horde.

P.S. Yes, I'm on a powergaming track here. You started it 8=))

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-10, 07:42 PM

Wait, Polymorph lets you get the creature's hitpoints?

Undead Prince

2009-04-10, 08:04 PM

Wait, Polymorph lets you get the creature's hitpoints?

Dang, I always forget that part 8=) Fixed.

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-10, 08:35 PM

Aww, I was hoping I missed something int he rules. :smallbiggrin:

Dagren

2009-04-10, 09:31 PM

Don't know why, I kind of prefer the silver dragon. Guess the gold one looks king of goofy to me or something.

Silverraptor

2009-04-10, 11:33 PM

Don't know why, I kind of prefer the silver dragon. Guess the gold one looks king of goofy to me or something.

Actually, I think silver dragons are stronger then gold dragons.

Dagren

2009-04-11, 12:34 AM

Actually, I think silver dragons are stronger then gold dragons.Not according to the SRD. Gold dragons have +1 to both HD and CR on them for any given age bracket.

factotum

2009-04-11, 01:21 AM

Actually, I think silver dragons are stronger then gold dragons.

Not unless that's changed in 3rd edition, they're not--it always used to be quite simple for the "Good" dragons in that they got more powerful as the metal they looked like got more expensive; hence the God of all good dragons being platinum!

Undead Prince

2009-04-11, 08:53 AM

Actually, I think silver dragons are stronger then gold dragons.

A Mature Adult Silver Dragon has 29 STR. A Mature Adult Gold Dragon has 35 STR. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)

Golds are the strongest of Metallics, just like Reds are the strongest of Chromatics. But Golds are also better than Reds in almost every way (much greater speed, can swim, much higher CHA = higher DC for Frightful Presence and more Sorcerer spells with higher DC, more flexible breath weapon, while having the same high STR and same power Breath Weapon; plus Golds live longer).

Gold Dragon Zombie + Draconomicon + Awaken Undead = awesome.

Undead Prince

2009-04-11, 06:50 PM

All right, continuing the little challenge of pimping V within the limits of his possible (i.e. not excluded) abilities, and purely within the confines of Core.

Leadership:

V has poor charisma, and some negative qualities for attracting cohorts (a Familiar, and failure). He can dismiss the familiar and make himself a +6 CHA item for 18,000 gp. He also has moderate renown from his many adventures, and a special power (having been under soul splice). V’s fairness and aloofness cancel each other out. All in all, he would have a Leadership score of about 17.

Cohort:

Human middle-aged female Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 7
Specialist (Necromancer), banned schools: Evocation, Illusion, Red Wizard banned school: Abjuration
Feats (5 level, 1 race, 2 class bonus, 1 class):
Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Craft Ring, Craft Rod, Scribe Scroll
Tattoo Focus, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Persuasive

Abilities (32 point buy):
STR 8 (9 base -1 age)
DEX 18 (15 base -1 age +4 item)
CON 16 (13 base -1 age +4 item)
INT 28 (18 +1 age +3 level +6 item)
WIS 9 (8 base +1 age)
CHA 18 (11 base +1 age +6 item)

Wealth: 88,000 gp (18,000 Cloak of Charisma +6, 18,000 Headband of Intellect +6, 8,000 Gloves of Dexterity +4, 8,000 Amulet of Health +4, 2,250 Circlet of Persuasion, etc. All items crafted by V or the Cohort)
Skills:
Bluff (class skill for Red Wizard): 15 ranks +4 CHA +2 feat +3 Circlet +2 Aid Another = 26
Intimidate (class skill for Red Wizard): 15 ranks +4 CHA +2 synergy +2 feat +3 Circlet +2 Aid Another = 28
+Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana, religion)

Cohort’s Cohort: For simplicity’s sake, same setup, only 10th level (Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5), and with different feats (has, among others, Craft Wand, Tattoo Focus, Improved Initiative; does not have Leadership)

Followers (pool between V and Cohort): one 4th level, two 3rd level, five 2nd level, fifty 1st level. Of these, suppose at least 3 are specialist wizards, to be granted Tattoo Focus by Cohort and participate in Circle Magic

Key strategies:
a) The Cohort and the Cohort’s Cohort (and 3 Followers) form a Circle and each contributes one of its top-level spells to form a pool of 11 bonus spell levels (about 15 with Followers), which can be used to:

1. Dominate NPCs – Use Circle Magic: Heighten Spell to give Dominate Person +11 DC (6th level spell from the Cohort + 5th level spell from the Cohort’s Cohort = +11 bonus spell levels). Total Dominate Person DC: 10 base +5 spell level + 6 INT +3 INT item +2 Spell Focus +11 Circle Magic = 37 DC = 95% win vs. anyone with less than +18 Will save. And even a 20th level Wizard has only a +12 base Will save.

2. Animate Undead Minions – Use Circle Magic to raise Cohort’s Caster Level for Animate Dead: 12 base +3 Spell Power (Red Wizard) +11 Circle Magic = 26 = 104 HD of undead. Cohort’s Cohort Caster Level raised similarly: 10 base +2 spell power +11 Circle Magic = 23 = 92 HD of undead. Total: 196 HD of Undead. With Followers: 212 HD of Undead.

3. Crafting – Use Circle Magic to raise Cohort’s Caster Level for purpose of Crafting.

b) Bluff + Intimidate – use the skills to make NPCs do what you want without wasting spells.

Undead Minions: CR-appropriate monsters killed and reanimated via Animate Dead + Desecration

Fire Giant Skeleton

Hit dice: 15d12 +30 (Desecration) = 127 hp
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. in half-plate armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +2 natural, +7 half-plate armor, +1 Ring of Protection), touch 10, flat-footed 19

Attack: Large Greatsword +17 melee (3d6+15) = 25.5 average
or rock +7 ranged (2d6+10 plus 2d6 fire) at 120ft range increment = 24 average
Full Attack:
Large Greatsword +17/+12 melee (3d6+15)
or 2 slams +17 melee (1d4+10)
or rock +7 ranged (2d6+10 plus 2d6 fire) at 120ft range increment
Charge mounted on a Zombie Gold Dragon: Move 200ft + Attack:
Large Lance +19 melee (2d6 +15)*2 = 44 average

Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Immunity to fire, immunity to cold, DR 5/bludgeoning, undead traits, rock catching
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +9

Weight: By the book, a Fire Giant weights 7,000 lbs. As a skeleton, it loses all its flesh (and natural armor), so it’s reasonable to suggest that a Skeleton Fire Giant weights only half as much, i.e. 3,500 lbs. Factoring in the armor, weapon, and other possessions, 4,000 lbs.

Young adult Gold Dragon Zombie

Hit dice: 20d12 +40 (Desecration) +20 (Zombie Toughness) = 190 hp
(Don’t tell me that without Draconomicon Zombies can’t have more than 10 HD – we’ve had Xykon zombify a Large (or even Huge) Dragon, and these don’t come in 10 or less HD).
Initiative: -1
Speed: 60 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy), swim 60 ft.
Armor Class: 30 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +19 natural, +4 natural bonus from Zombie), touch 7, flat-footed 30
Attack: Bite +21 (2d8 +11)
Full Attack:
Charge: Move 60ft + Bite at +23 attack (2d8 +11) = 20 average damage
Dive: Fly 200ft + Claws at +18 attack (2d6 +5.5)*2 = 25 average damage
Crush: Fly 200ft + Crush (2d8 +15) (automatic hit for opponents 2 or more categories smaller than Huge)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: Crush
Special Qualities: Immunity to fire, immunity to cold, DR 5/slashing, undead traits

Abilities: Str 33, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +12

Carrying Capacity (light load): 4800 lbs, i.e. can carry a Fire Giant Skeleton as a rider. If need be, with a +4 STR item becomes 8304 lbs.

212 HD of loyal Undead = 6 Young Adult Gold Dragon Zombies + 6 Fire Giant Skeletons

Total Minions:

Wizard 5/Red Wizard 7 Cohort
Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 Cohort’s Cohort
1 Greater Stone Golem
6 Young Adult Gold Dragon Zombies
6 Fire Giant Skeletons
Followers: one 4th level, two 3rd level, five 2nd level, fifty 1st level.

How would it compare to the rest of the party? Well, let's take a 14th level Roy: he'd have 122 hp (14d10 + 42, max first dice, 16 Con), 21 AC (+3 Full plate, no Dex bonus), and +24/+19/+14 attack (14 class + 5 STR +2 Weapon Focus/Greater WF +3 weapon enchantment) for (2d6 +7 STR +2 Weapon Spec +3 enchantment) = 19 damage.

Two Fire Giant Lancers mounted on the Dragon Zombies dive in on Roy, hitting him with 90% chance for combined 138 damage vs. his 122 hp. Roy is instantly knocked into -10 hp and dies.

Now, how about Roy goes mano-a-mano against one of the Fire Giant Skeletons:

The opponents start within 30ft of each other. The Giant Skeleton is under V's command (free action talking) + has been programmed in advance with some basic combat strategies.

Round 1

The Fire Giant has +4 Initiative on Roy, so it has a 70% chance of going first. It starts by throwing a rock at +7 AB, and has a 30% chance to hit vs. Roy's 21 AC. Suppose Roy takes 1/3 of damage (24/3 = 8) and is down to 114 hp. After throwing the rock, the Giant Moves its speed (30ft) away from Roy, and draws the Large Greatsword (free action).

At this point, Roy has to decide on his strategy.

He can't stay where he is, because the Giant will just kill him with the rocks. Even if Roy has a Composite Longbow and tries to win using ranged attacks, his AB will be +14/+9/+4 for (1d8 +5) = 9 average damage, vs. the Giant's 19 AC and 5 DR, ie. he will be doing around 6 damage per round vs. the Giant's 10 (8 first attack, 2 second attack which has about a 10% chance to hit). Also, because the Giant has Initiative, once Roy is down to 25 hp the Giant will simply Charge with Greatsword and instantly incapacitate him. Roy loses in 10 rounds.

The other option is closing in with the Giant and going all-out melee on its undead butt. However, Roy cannot Charge the Giant (distance is 60 ft, due to heavy armor he can only Charge 40 ft). If he Runs to the Giant, he subjects himself to an AoO due to the Giant's Reach (and Roy is susceptible to AoOs, as we have seen in his fight vs. spiked chain guy), and a full attack next round from the Giant. If he stops just outside the Giant's reach (i.e. in 15 ft), he will avoid the AoO, but will suffer the Giant's 5-ft step + full attack next round. If he stops 15 or 20 ft from the Giant, it will simply Throw rock + Move again, putting 45-50 ft between them, and Roy's back to square 1 but lost another 8 hp.

Therefore, Roy runs up to the Giant, but stops in 5 ft from it. This avoids the AoO, and denies the Giant the option of ranged attacks, as next round Roy will Charge.

Round 2

Giant: Attack +17 (3d6 +10) vs. AC 21, Move 30 ft away from Roy. 80% chance of 20,5 damage = 16,4 average. Roy is down to 81 hp.

Roy: Charge: Move 35 ft

Giant: AoO as Roy moves out of threatened square (10ft reach): Attack +17 (3d6 +10) vs. AC 19 (-2 AC due to Charge), 90% of 20,5 = 18,45 damage. Roy is down to 63 hp.

Roy: Charge continued: Power Attack: +18 attack for 19 + 16 (Power Attack 8*2) = 35 damage, -5 DR = 30 total damage. Giant is down to 97 hp.

Round 3

Giant: Attack +17 (3d6 +10) vs. AC 19 (-2 AC due to Charge) = 18,45 damage. Roy is down to 45 hp.
Giant: Move 30 ft away from Roy.

Roy: Charge: Move 30 ft to Giant

Giant: AoO for 18,45 damage. Roy is down to 27 hp.

Roy: Charge continued: Attack for 30 damage. Giant is down to 67 hp.

Round 3

If Roy repeats the cycle, he dies this round. If he tries ranged attacks, again he dies this round due to Giant Charging him and then getting an AoO for ranged weapons in melee. If he attempts to run away, Giant catches up with him due to higher speed. Roy surrenders.

This was of course an approximation. With the right selection of feats (notably something that allows to avoid AoOs), and a better weapon Roy might win against the Skeleton. But there are six Giant Skeletons, and six Dragon Zombies, and two Cohorts in total. It does illustrate what level of power V might have had at his disposal should he put his mind to it.

P.S. Again, this is purely from Core. A few morsels from other sourcebooks - undead dragon rules from Draconomicon, Awaken Undead from Spell Compendium, Corpsecrafter from Libris Mortis, a Warblade White Raven cohort from ToB - would make this team so freakishly powerful it wouldn't even be amusing.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-12, 05:24 AM

Guess he's better off as a peasant, if he's so lazy and has so little taste for power 8=))

:belkar: What a total waste of time. While the rest of us was having fun and talking to the girls, you were alone in your library, learning to use your "hand spells", if you catch my drift

I suppose you read On the origin of PCs, so you will understand the references :smallbiggrin:

About the pumping of V: wouldn't all this golem and followers he get to fight for him give him such a ludicrous CR that he's unlikely to get XP from any encounter, unless it is an encounter that really puts him in peril even with all this stuff?

Undead Prince

2009-04-12, 09:02 AM

:belkar: What a total waste of time. While the rest of us was having fun and talking to the girls, you were alone in your library, learning to use your "hand spells", if you catch my drift

:vaarsuvius: While you were busy talking to the girls, I learned to use Suggestion and Dominate Person to make them fulfill my every whim. For more romantic encounters, Detect Thoughts combined with Alter Self have proven quite useful, whereas Animate Rope plus Arcane Lock allowed me to partake in more feisty engagements. As to the act itself, you will surely pardon me for doubting that your halfling bedding prowess compares favourably with the effects of Enlarge Person, Polymorph and Bear's Endurance. Let me asssure you, my diminutive ally, that I am as red-blooded as my cloak, and have left many a concubine gasping under my erotic onslaught.*

*I suppose you will understand the reference.

About the pumping of V: wouldn't all this golem and followers he get to fight for him give him such a ludicrous CR that he's unlikely to get XP from any encounter, unless it is an encounter that really puts him in peril even with all this stuff?

Summoned, animated, created, hired and other minions do not increase ECL. They are an integral part of the character who commands them, just like attack spells, weapons, armor and magic items. Likewise, Cohorts are just a feature of the Leadership feat; even though they receive actual XP to raise in level, they get this XP for free (i.e. do not bite off a chunk of party XP).

Theodoriph

2009-04-12, 10:54 AM

@Undead_Prince

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "fair". :smalltongue: You seem to have a number of misconceptions based upon your apparent misunderstanding what that word entails.

P.S.

A few people are claiming my scenario is unfair saying "A wizard blah blah blah buffs blah blah blah..."

I must remind you that were are not discussing a fight between "A wizard" and a level 5 paladin, we are talking about a fight between V and a level 5 paladin. By CAW, V doesn't always walk around buffed up the wazoo. As I remember (though I haven't read every comic to check), V tends to buff only when she's preparing for an encounter, and not as some part of morning ritual in the event something might happen.

Undead Prince

2009-04-12, 11:07 AM

@Undead_Prince

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "fair". :smalltongue: You seem to have a number of misconceptions based upon your apparent misunderstanding what that word entails.

It would be nice if you would specify what aspect of this discussion are you referring to. A quote would be best.

And wasn't it you who suggested that putting a debuffed caster within 20 ft of a charging melee guy was a "fair" idea for a duel?

Undead Prince

2009-04-12, 11:45 AM

A few people are claiming my scenario is unfair saying "A wizard blah blah blah buffs blah blah blah..."

I must remind you that were are not discussing a fight between "A wizard" and a level 5 paladin, we are talking about a fight between V and a level 5 paladin. By CAW, V doesn't always walk around buffed up the wazoo. As I remember (though I haven't read every comic to check), V tends to buff only when she's preparing for an encounter, and not as some part of morning ritual in the event something might happen.

Anyway, I won't even attempt to play Vaarsuvius as Rich would play him. I don't claim to have full knowledge of the intricacies of the author's considerations (which go way beyond "winning DnD"). All I can offer in respect of this challenge is playing V how I would play him, given the nature and qualities of his character and circumstances.

V behaves the way he behaves to a large extent due to story constraints and other non-gaming considerations. He has, however, displayed sufficient intelligence and foresight as a character to use the strategies I delineated, should he be given free reign. And the entire story with ABD & the splice seems to have shaken him up, making him more aware of both the dangers of adventuring life and the possibilities offered by arcane power.

The way I see this challenge, is I take V as shown in the Geekery thread, fill in the "gaps" (missing feats etc.) with something I would choose given V's limits (banned schools etc) and personality (lust for arcane power etc), and play the resulting character the way I would play him, again within the constraints of his personality traits. An additional condition (handicap) of the challenge was using only Core books to do it.

There was also a challenge of *5th level character vs. 14th level character*. I think that's over now.

Silverraptor

2009-04-12, 12:12 PM

Not according to the SRD. Gold dragons have +1 to both HD and CR on them for any given age bracket.
Not unless that's changed in 3rd edition, they're not--it always used to be quite simple for the "Good" dragons in that they got more powerful as the metal they looked like got more expensive; hence the God of all good dragons being platinum!

A Mature Adult Silver Dragon has 29 STR. A Mature Adult Gold Dragon has 35 STR. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)

Golds are the strongest of Metallics, just like Reds are the strongest of Chromatics. But Golds are also better than Reds in almost every way (much greater speed, can swim, much higher CHA = higher DC for Frightful Presence and more Sorcerer spells with higher DC, more flexible breath weapon, while having the same high STR and same power Breath Weapon; plus Golds live longer).

Gold Dragon Zombie + Draconomicon + Awaken Undead = awesome.

Ah yes. Sorry, my mistake. I was probably thinking of Red dragons as the strongest of the type category (chromatic) and I confused it with Silver dragons because of similar environments.

Mr. Pin

2009-04-12, 12:26 PM

I think that V is still going to go and try to wipe out Xykon and his buds; she just hasn't gotten around to it yet.

Mr. Scaly

2009-04-12, 02:28 PM

King of Nowhere

2009-04-12, 03:57 PM

:vaarsuvius: While you were busy talking to the girls, I learned to use Suggestion and Dominate Person to make them fulfill my every whim. For more romantic encounters, Detect Thoughts combined with Alter Self have proven quite useful, whereas Animate Rope plus Arcane Lock allowed me to partake in more feisty engagements. As to the act itself, you will surely pardon me for doubting that your halfling bedding prowess compares favourably with the effects of Enlarge Person, Polymorph and Bear's Endurance. Let me asssure you, my diminutive ally, that I am as red-blooded as my cloak, and have left many a concubine gasping under my erotic onslaught.*

*I suppose you will understand the reference.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: That was great! I still prefere the part where no arcane power is involved, anyway.
Oh, and I don't get the referece.

Summoned, animated, created, hired and other minions do not increase ECL. They are an integral part of the character who commands them, just like attack spells, weapons, armor and magic items. Likewise, Cohorts are just a feature of the Leadership feat; even though they receive actual XP to raise in level, they get this XP for free (i.e. do not bite off a chunk of party XP).
Summoned, I knew, but created and hired hardly seems fair. A summoned creature counts in your daily spell disposition, but created and especially hired creatures have little relation to physical power of the hirer.
I mean, you defeat an ancient gold dragon, and your master says you don't get XP because your enemy was a lame goblin with CR 1/2, and the dragon don't count in the CR because he was hired by the goblin.
If you fight an evil mastermind who is physically weak, but have lot of powerful hired minions, you don't get any XP for the whole campaign, since it was basically a fight with the boss and his hired strongarms.
You are clearly skilled in the rules, but that seems a great bug in them, and I think no master should allow that, at least when your personal army starts becoming more dangerous than you personally are.

Undead Prince

2009-04-12, 06:17 PM

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: That was great! I still prefere the part where no arcane power is involved, anyway.
Oh, and I don't get the referece.

Thanks. And the ref was: last sentence in that passage belonged to Edwin Odesseiron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Odesseiron#Edwin_Odesseiron), my fav character in Baldur's Gate 1 - 2 - ToB, a Lawful Evil Red Wizard of Thay with a sharp tongue, a dream of becoming a lich, and a boatload of bad karma. He was one of the staples of my party throughout all 3 games, and achieved nearly godlike powers at the end (by AD&D 2.0 standards), but the Fates really had screwed him up in the end, in a way that was both disappointing 8=( and funny 8=)) at the same time.

Anyway, that guy sure had a lot of memorable quotes.

Edwin: Well, it would seem the leader of our little group has impregnated the impressionable circus child. And here I thought she was merely getting chubby without the ring master's whip to keep her in shape.

The "leader of the group" being the PC 8=))

Summoned, I knew, but created and hired hardly seems fair. A summoned creature counts in your daily spell disposition, but created and especially hired creatures have little relation to physical power of the hirer.

This discussion is moot because the rules are very clear and, except by DM fiat, none of these count towards ECL. For instance:

Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy’s ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy’s CR already.

However, I'll indulge. Creatures created by spells, e.g. undead, have direct relation to the spellcaster's power - access to undead creating spells, Caster Level, special feats, access to corpses (normally you have to actually kill a monster you want to animate!) etc. They also cost money and sometimes XP to create.

Created creatures are no different from magic items, in that you pay gold/XP/spells to get them. That Golem, for instance, cost 105,000 gp, 7650 XP, and three feats to make!

I mean, you defeat an ancient gold dragon, and your master says you don't get XP because your enemy was a lame goblin with CR 1/2, and the dragon don't count in the CR because he was hired by the goblin.

No Dragon would be considered "hired" by the goblin, unless the goblin could actually afford its services, in which case it most certainly wouldn't be CR 1/2! The Draconomicon offers some examples of how much Dragons might charge for serving as cohorts/mounts, and it ain't cheap! Anyway, that mercenary warrior you hired is basically the same as the heavy warhorse you're riding, or the enchanted sword you're wielding. All cost money, all add to your combat ability, and none increase your ECL.

The DMG offers prices for only the most lowly hirelings (1st level NPC classes & the like). Whether higher level characters are available for hire is up to the DM.

If you fight an evil mastermind who is physically weak, but have lot of powerful hired minions, you don't get any XP for the whole campaign, since it was basically a fight with the boss and his hired strongarms.

If the mastermind managed to get all those minions, he would award a lot of XP; and since he spent so many of his resources/abilities on these minions, he will be easy to defeat. So, the XP awarded for defeating him actually includes XP for defeating his hirelings.

You are clearly skilled in the rules, but that seems a great bug in them, and I think no master should allow that, at least when your personal army starts becoming more dangerous than you personally are.

And what is a character, "personally"? Wasn't he, "personally", the one who created and commanded said army in the first place? The army is just a manifestation of his powers. Zombies or golems are no different than fireballs, wishes, or +5 Unholy Vorpal Greatswords.

Would you say that a character with Craft Wand, who spent money/time/XP to make a ton of wands for her teammates, actually increased the party's combined ECL by doing this? Does Dominating a powerful monster into helping the party increase the party's ECL? Etc. The answers are no. These are only forms of "remote manifestation" of powers. Characters, especially spellcasters, are not about "here and now", but about complex strategies that might span months and involve crafting items, animating undead servants, hiring mercenaries etc. That's why items and minions do not affect ECL - they are already included in the ECL.

And if the DM wants to make the game more challenging, he can do it perfectly well without bending the rules. He can throw in more enemies with greater powers (and higher CR), acknowledging the party's gaming prowess and making the players feel they're really achieving something, defeating enemies well above the level-appropriate Challenge rating.

Undead Prince

2009-04-12, 06:19 PM

All right, Fair Fight time.

Recently, I offered a scenario where Roy as fixed by the Geekery thread was pitted against one of *Pimped V*'s Fire Giant Skeletons. Roy lost that fight very sadly, and I felt kinda sorry for him. So I decided to pimp Roy as well! Again, within the rules of the challenge - i.e., using what is established by Geekery and filling the gaps with stuff from Core.

Geekery Data:

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter 13

Attributes (39 pt buy min):

Str ≥20 (from magic item or level boost, analysis here)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ≥16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
Int 14-18 (“very good”, but V's Int is "higher")
Wis ≥14 (“very good”)
Cha ≥12 (“decent”)

Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Endurance...

Skills (≥74): Intimidate, Ride 1... No Bluff or Sense Motive.
Abilities: Favored class (any)
Items: In Haley's Bags of Holding

My take on the character:

Roy is a single-class Fighter who has a preference for fighting with his ancestral Greatsword, and a particular enmity towards undead. This is what I would propose for him, using only Core:

Human Fighter 14
Feats: 13 (5 level +1 race +7 class), 6 accounted for, 7 free

1. Mounted Combat
2. Ride-by Attack
3. Spirited Charge
4. Mounted Archery
5. Trample
6. Improved Initiative
7. Leadership

Skills:

Ride 17 (yeah, Roy had 1 Ride in the beginning, but perhaps he’s smarted up, and with 5-7 skill points per level he only needs about 3 levels to get 16 ranks)
Intimidate

Wealth: 150,000 gp as proper for a 14th level char

Items:

1. 35,050 +3 Adamantine Undead Bane Greatsword (+3 regular, +5/+2d6 vs. Undead)
2. 32,800 +3 Undead Bane Composite Longbow +4 (+3 regular, +5/+2d6 vs. Undead, +4 STR bonus to damage)
3. 3,200 20 Holy Arrows (+2d6 damage vs. Evil)
4. 17,650 +4 Full Plate

5. Magic Items
a. 20,000 Ring of Invisibility
b. 16,000 Winged Boots (Fly 3/day for 5 minutes each time/15 minutes total = 50/150 rounds)
c. 16,000 Belt of Stone Giant Strength +4
d. 8,000 Ring of Protection +2
e. 8,000 Amulet of Natural Armor +2

6. Warhorse
a. 150 Light Warhorse (60ft speed) AC 22 (10 base -1 size +1 Dex +4 natural +4 barding +4 Shield potion)
b. 400 Chain Shirt light barding (+4 AC)
c. 60 Military Saddle
d. 3,000 Horseshoes of Zephyr (+30 ft speed)

7. Potions & Oils
a. 750 1 Haste CL 5 (Haste for 5 rounds)
b. 750 1 Heroism CL 5 (+2 morale bonus on attacks, saves, skills for 50 minutes)
c. 300 1 Lesser Restoration
d. 250 1 Enlarge Person
e. 200 4 Hide from Undead (Undead cannot perceive imbiber for 10 minutes; automatic success vs. mindless undead, Will save for intelligent undead)
f. 100 1 Bless Weapon (for the critical threat bonus)
g. 100 2 Protection from Evil
h. 300 2 Shield CL 3 (+4 AC [shield] for 3 minutes)
Items go slightly beyond the appropriate wealth, but this can be adjusted according to taste.

Attack:

Spirited Charge: Greatsword +30 or +20 w/10 Power Attack (2d6 +10 +5 +20 PA)*2 +2d6 bane = 91 damage; not subject to AoO from target

Full Attack:

Greatsword +28/+23/+18 (+7 STR +5 enchantment +2 Heroism) for 29 *3 = 87 damage per round (2d6 +10 STR +5 ench +2d6 bane)

Longbow +21/+16/+11 (+5 ench +2 Heroism) for 27,5 *3 = 82,5 damage per round (1d8 +4 STR +5 ench +2d6 bane +2d6 Holy arrows)

Strategies:

1. Use Power Attack + Ride-by Attack + Spirited Charge to Charge the enemy without AoO, dealing 91 damage to undead, and in the same round ride as far away as possible so that the enemy cannot Charge you back. This setup allows Roy to ride up to 90ft, attack, and ride away up to 90 ft, all in 1 round, without AoO from target.
2. Use Mounted Archery to make ranged attacks while riding away from opponents.
3. When mounted, use Ride skill to protect mount from enemy attacks.
4. Use Winged Boots to attack from the air, both ranged and melee.
5. Use Ring of Invisibility or potions of Hide from Undead to surprise the enemy, or to allow safe healing.

This particular build can make quick work of the Fire Giant Skeletons. However, it is still subject to being Charged by Fire Giant Skeletons mounted on Dragon Zombies. And of course, it is still fully susceptible to the magicks of the Wizard Cohorts.

But, in this build Roy also gets a Cohort of his own. That is something for another time, though. Stay tuned!

Volkov

2009-04-13, 07:55 AM

Quickened Intensified magic missile, V dies due to low hit point count. End of story.

with an e

2009-04-13, 10:45 AM

This discussion is moot because the rules are very clear and, except by DM fiat, none of these count towards ECL. For instance:
Let us take a 17th level transmuter and fix his spellbook and prepared spells for an encounter at his laboratory. Let us say that no independent creatures are present for the fight. Let us say that his CR is n.

Situation 1: Suppose the transmuter has created an iron golem as his guard, then the xp for the encounter is for CR n according to your interpretation of the rule.

Situation 2: Suppose now that the transmuter has an iron golem guard of the same configuration as in situation 1, and it is given to him by his friend. Since the rule clearly applies to creatures that the enemy summons or otherwise adds to his forces with magic, and the iron golem is not added by the enemy, the rule does not apply. Therefore, the DM either awards xp for an encounter of CR m>n or awards separate xp for the transmuter of CR n and the iron golem of CR 16. In either case, the PCs obtained more exp because of the presence of the iron golem.

We have a situation where application of the rules produces inconsistent results for a transmuter and an iron golem of precisely the same capabilities, which is nonsense. Therefore, the rules are not clear. Therefore, DM fiat is expected.

Undead Prince

2009-04-13, 11:05 AM

Situation 1: Suppose the transmuter has created an iron golem as his guard, then the xp for the encounter is for CR n according to your interpretation of the rule.

It's not my interpretation, it is RAW. Didn't I already quoted the DMG:

Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy’s ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy’s CR already.

But wait, you admit it yourself:

Since the rule clearly applies to creatures that the enemy summons or otherwise adds to his forces with magic

What's the confusion?

Situation 2: Suppose now that the transmuter has an iron golem guard of the same configuration as in situation 1, and it is given to him by his friend. Since the rule clearly applies to creatures that the enemy summons or otherwise adds to his forces with magic, and the iron golem is not added by the enemy, the rule does not apply. Therefore, the DM either awards xp for an encounter of CR m>n or awards separate xp for the transmuter of CR n and the iron golem of CR 16. In either case, the PCs obtained more exp because of the presence of the iron golem.

No. The Golem would either be part of the transmuter's CR, or the second NPC's CR. It would not give separate XP in either case. Its presence would not increase total XP for the encounter, just like a 15th level Fighter does not give more XP if he is armed with a +5 Vorpal Sword.

Undead Prince

2009-04-13, 11:10 AM

Quickened Intensified magic missile, V dies due to low hit point count. End of story.

Which part of the discussion are you referring to? Who is fighting V? Why do you suppose V's enemy goes first in the encounter? Why do you suppose V does not have any protections, such as, for instance, the lowly Shield which completely blocks magic missiles?

Volkov

2009-04-13, 12:53 PM

Which part of the discussion are you referring to? Who is fighting V? Why do you suppose V's enemy goes first in the encounter? Why do you suppose V does not have any protections, such as, for instance, the lowly Shield which completely blocks magic missiles?

Well it's the only spell I know of that doesn't allow a save that does damage. Well any ways, empowered meteor swarm? Intensified chain lightning? A very heightened fireball?

with an e

2009-04-13, 01:12 PM

No. The Golem would either be part of the transmuter's CR, or the second NPC's CR. It would not give separate XP in either case.
That is not the correct interpretation according to the rule you quoted. Let us review the DMG:

Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy’s ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy’s CR already.
There are two requirements to ignoring a creature's xp, both of which must be met:
1. The creature must be summoned or otherwise added through magic by the enemy.
2. The creature must be part of the enemy's forces.

There are two NPCs in the above scenario, the enemy transmuter and his friend the NPC. The iron golem is not part of the enemy's CR because the enemy did not summon or add the iron golem through magic. The iron golem is not part of the NPC's CR because it is not part of the NPC's forces. Therefore, the iron golem must contribute xp.

Undead Prince

2009-04-13, 01:47 PM

There are two requirements to ignoring a creature's xp, both of which must be met:
1. The creature must be summoned or otherwise added through magic by the enemy.
2. The creature must be part of the enemy's forces.

There are two NPCs in the above scenario, the enemy transmuter and his friend the NPC. The iron golem is not part of the enemy's CR because the enemy did not summon or add the iron golem through magic. The iron golem is not part of the NPC's CR because it is not part of the NPC's forces. Therefore, the iron golem must contribute xp.

No 8=) The golem is part of the second NPC (let's call him Transmuter 2) force, which the second NPC decided to share with Transmuter 1. It's like one PC leases his sword to another PC. The sword is still part of the first PC's equipment, but is temporarily in use by the other PC.

Or, Transmuter 1 acquired the golem's services by buying or renting it from Transmuter 2. The golem has a new master, Transmuter 1, and is now part of his force. In this case the golem is part of a hiring deal, and the hireling rule applies:

Unlike cohorts, hirelings do not make decisions. They do as they’re told (at least in theory). Thus, even if they go on an adventure with the PCs, they gain no experience and do not affect any calculations involving the party level.

It is up to the DM to define the precise circumstances and determine which Transmuter counts the Golem in his force. But in both cases the Golem would not contribute extra XP to the encounter.

Undead Prince

2009-04-13, 01:50 PM

Well it's the only spell I know of that doesn't allow a save that does damage.

And why is that relevant?

Well any ways, empowered meteor swarm? Intensified chain lightning? A very heightened fireball?

Are you suggesting ways Xykon could kill Spliced V? Or how a level 5 character could kill Unspliced V? Or something else? Clarify your idea, otherwise it's rather pointless to discuss.

with an e

2009-04-13, 02:22 PM

No 8=) The golem is part of the second NPC (let's call him Transmuter 2) force, which the second NPC decided to share with Transmuter 1. It's like one PC leases his sword to another PC. The sword is still part of the first PC's equipment, but is temporarily in use by the other PC.

Or, Transmuter 1 acquired the golem's services by buying or renting it from Transmuter 2. The golem has a new master, Transmuter 1, and is now part of his force. In this case the golem is part of a hiring deal, and the hireling rule applies:
You are in need of a reminder of the original assumptions

Suppose now that the transmuter has an iron golem guard of the same configuration as in situation 1, and it is given to him by his friend.
The golem is no longer part of the NPC's force, because the assumption is that the NPC gave the golem to the enemy. The golem is not hired from the NPC; that is directly contradictory to the definition of a gift. Neither rule is applicable.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-13, 04:36 PM

The concept of "hired" forces is not well definable within the rules. I accept that hiring mercenaries will sacrifice some of your level appropriate whealt you could have used to buy better magic items, but there are limits and exceptions. I mean, tecnically the whole oots was hired by Roy and Durkon, so Haley, Elan, Belkar and V should not give XP to someone killing them, and that is absurd (except for the case of Elan, but that is another story).
If V went power player and crafted all that stuff you mentioned, still no XP for none of this. Even soul spliced V don't give any XP, because he's just Roy's hireling.
Basically a whole army can count in the CR of the king who leads it. Even every high level adventurer loial to that king counts. And that army may have golems and trained dragons with it. So we have a king with a CR of about 30. Now, a group of adventurers destroy the army, but don't take any XP. A lone assassin shoot an arrow at the king while he was in public, killing him (the king had 80+ years and one hit dice) and get the whole XP bounty for the whole army. Nonsense.
While hired forces don't cuncur in the CR, allied forces do, and the line between allied and hired can be undefined. If someone puts an army to fight at his behalf, I'd say it counts. After all CR should define the difficulty of a battle, not the contracts signed between the varius parts. And the rules explicitly says that the master should go against them when necessary, because there is an endless amount of particular cases with which the rules as written works badly.

As far as particularly optimized characters go, my personal solution would be giving a level adjustment to the whole party, to reflect the fact that they're more powerful than expected from their level, and fights are easier for them.

For the magic missle argument, shield last one minute per level, so no chance of having it always on. Unless you make it permanent, but how many permanent spells do you need then? How much they cost? And the first time someone cast a dispel magic on you, you cry for months for the money loss.
A wizard can cast a magic missle without having magic items. Granted, a single magic missle won't take out a powerful wizard, but if enough low and mid level mages could gather to cast it (it would take about half a dozen of them, depending on their levels. Maybe less), on the surprise round, it can work. If the mage don't have a good spell resistance or a permanetn shield, it may work. And I don't see a powerful wizard spending many money to protect against magic missles, or against low level wizards (SR protect against low level casters, against a caster high enough in levels is almost useless).
The only chance would seems to stay well above ground (at least 100 m, because there's a feat that improves casting range) and well clear of everthing that flies.

chibibar

2009-04-13, 04:47 PM

In terms of Power, V is WAY more powerful than Xykon. But pure power doesn't always win. Xykon beats Durokon even Durokon WAS more powerful than Xykon at the time (read more Start of Darkness for more details). Xykon may act like a fool, but he is very smart and cunning. I'm sure Xykon has a couple of spell tucked away (or items) that will help him. Xykon is kinda like an evil Batman.

V is still young and inexperience in terms of adventuring. V only knows brute force and "ultimate arcane power" V's body is still LIMIT to the HP of original V's level (the host) and thus probably can get kill pretty easily if a lucky spell hit (or none spell)

David Argall

2009-04-13, 04:50 PM

chibibar

2009-04-13, 05:42 PM

Killer Angel

2009-04-14, 02:29 AM

Oh, good one 8=)) Yeah, a caster stripped of all his buffs, within 20 ft of a charging melee guy wielding a Greatsword 8=)) Real fair 8=)))

Seriously though, this is silly. An encounter does not begin with rolling Initiative. It begins with determining awareness.

It's totally unrelated with the challenge, but it could be the topic for a thread (maybe I'll start one).
In forums we see a lot of arena confrontation wizard Vs fighter (or monks, etc.). They are unrealistic (and silly, as you said), but can be funny.
However, how can a fight such this (arena style) be fair?
20 feet starting distance it's silly, but i think the fighter must be in range for a charge (even if he's an archer). IMO the wizard should not be buffed, except for all the spells with a duration hours/level, or for the ones permanencied, or some others (contingeny, application of feats/wands affectin' spells duration)... which are still a lot.
The debate could be endless.

PHB II is pretty much core in my books (bad pun). Sure, the group is free to exclude it, but so can parts of core be excluded (Polymorph anyone?)

I agree only partially.
It's true that PHII it's not a splatbook, but it's not strictly Core. It's an expansion to the Core.
"Core Only" should refers only to PH, DMG and MM1 (and PsiHB)... including also PHII is possible, but it's not given.

Teddy

2009-04-14, 03:34 AM

Well it's the only spell I know of that doesn't allow a save that does damage. Well any ways, empowered meteor swarm? Intensified chain lightning? A very heightened fireball?

Polar ray requires an attack roll, but allows no save. However, undeads aren't very vulnerable to cold, but that could easily be solved with the "Master of Elements" high arcana.

Volkov

2009-04-14, 08:22 AM

And why is that relevant?

Are you suggesting ways Xykon could kill Spliced V? Or how a level 5 character could kill Unspliced V? Or something else? Clarify your idea, otherwise it's rather pointless to discuss.

I'm throwing every spell that might kill V I know. How about a finger of death spell heightened to 12th level. Assuming Xykon has 30+ charisma, which wouldn't be too far out, and assuming he has at least a +6 magical bonus to it. The Save DC would be 35. But if the magical bonus is epic in nature, I.E he has an epic cloak of charisma. Then the Save DC would increase by three, and adding eagle's splendor would put the save DC at a whopping 40.

V has a decent chance at failing the save even when spliced if it's at 40.

Volkov

2009-04-14, 08:26 AM

It's totally unrelated with the challenge, but it could be the topic for a thread (maybe I'll start one).
In forums we see a lot of arena confrontation wizard Vs fighter (or monks, etc.). They are unrealistic (and silly, as you said), but can be funny.
However, how can a fight such this (arena style) be fair?
20 feet starting distance it's silly, but i think the fighter must be in range for a charge (even if he's an archer). IMO the wizard should not be buffed, except for all the spells with a duration hours/level, or for the ones permanencied, or some others (contingeny, application of feats/wands affectin' spells duration)... which are still a lot.
The debate could be endless.

I agree only partially.
It's true that PHII it's not a splatbook, but it's not strictly Core. It's an expansion to the Core.
"Core Only" should refers only to PH, DMG and MM1 (and PsiHB)... including also PHII is possible, but it's not given.
Sorry for the double post, but aren't all the books included in the SRD core material? As in the Epic Level Handbook, PH, DMG, MM1, PsiHB, UEA, and lastly Deities and Demigods.

Killer Angel

2009-04-14, 08:33 AM

Sorry for the double post, but aren't all the books included in the SRD core material? As in the Epic Level Handbook, PH, DMG, MM1, PsiHB, UEA, and lastly Deities and Demigods.

mmm... I'm not sure.
The list in Gorbash' thread, puts PHII in the "Expansion to the Core".

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512

Volkov

2009-04-14, 08:39 AM

mmm... I'm not sure.
The list in Gorbash' thread, puts PHII in the "Expansion to the Core".

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512

Oh damn I forgot the XpsiHB.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-04-14, 05:41 PM

However, how can a fight such this (arena style) be fair?
20 feet starting distance it's silly, but i think the fighter must be in range for a charge (even if he's an archer).

Heh, 20 feet? You can make meelee fighter builds that deal out loads of damage at 6 times that distance or more.

Killer Angel

2009-04-15, 01:57 AM

Heh, 20 feet? You can make meelee fighter builds that deal out loads of damage at 6 times that distance or more.

I know, 20' starting distance wasn't my idea. Against certain builds, there's no much difference between 20' or 80'...
Nevertheless, I don't think the setting conditions of an hypothetic arena, should be based on the relative builds.

Volkov

2009-04-15, 08:45 AM

If xykon has spell focus and greater spell focus then the spell DC will rise to 42, and no one can resist that special number.

Undead Prince

2009-04-15, 04:09 PM

The purpose behind the summonsing rule is made clear. It is to rate challenge X the same whether it comes in form Y or Z.
The enemy mage casts a spell. It doesn't matter what the spell is. He is there to hurt you with spells. That is how he challenges you. Summons Monster 3 or fireball. Either way is supposed to hurt you about the same amount on average. [A goal frequently not reached, but it is still the goal.] So our summonsed creature is simply another spell and does not add to the challenge, nor to the XP reward.

Now when we talk about our iron golem and such, we are not, normally, talking about a mage who has cast a spell. Our foe still has full power, and thus is worth full credit, and the creature or magic item, simply adds to the value.

Seriously, David, do we have to engage in spelling everything out? The rules are in the books, crystal clear, and quoted here twice no less. Why is there still denial of the obvious?

First, the rule is not about "summoning", but very explicitely about any sort of magical creation. That would include Conjuration [calling], Animate Dead, Create Undead, Craft Golem, etc.

Second, I completely don't understand how an experienced player could not see the logic behind this rule. A DnD character is not about "here and now", it is a rather lengthy existence spanning many levels, many gaming sessions, and many in-game years. To have power tomorrow, you make sacrifices today. You spend spells, gold and XP to craft magic items; you spend spells, gold and XP to get yourself undead/construct/extraplanar servants. Both give you something in exchange for something. You gain, and you lose. You use the features of your class, feats, skills to get yourself power. Why should some cases of this cause an ECL adjustment, and others not?

Very simple example. Take V and his Greater Stone Golem. To make this one single Golem, V had to take three feats, cast specific spells (good thing he's a wizard and doesn't have these schools banned! and purchased and learned and cast these spells), and spend, this is important, 105,000 gp and 7,640 XP. For those not familiar with how crafting works, 7,640 XP equal 191,000 gp in terms of making magic items. So V had to spend a total of 296,000 gp to get this one servant. And the entire average wealth of a 14th level character is only 150,000 gp.

And if you think that Golem's unbeatable, well, think again. First, it's terribly slow and doesn't have a ranged attack. Second, it's susceptible to all spells that don't allow save resistance (hello, Orb of Acid). Third, it is mindless, so if its contact with master is somehow disrupted, it becomes almost worthless.

I mean, mano-a-mano it could be totally destroyed by a single guy on a horse, with Mounted Combat + Spirited Charge + Ride-by-Attack.

Still think it's worth an ECL?

Well then, let's look at what we've lost by making that Golem. 296,000 gp can buy a lot of magic items. For instance: a 14th level Phantom Steed Command Word item costs only 75,000 gp. And it gives you as many Phantom Steeds as you want, each with a 14-hour duration and a 240ft flight speed. Yep, your entire party, inlcuding all cohorts, followers, and other minions, gets a constant 240-ft flight speed. Your party is now faster than any monster in the game. Your fighters can use Ride-by Attack to kill any enemy with impunity. Your casters and archers can run circles around enemies, peppering them with spells and arrows. How does that compare to a single Golem with its 20ft land speed? And does it merit an ECL increase?

Or, for the same buck you could just deck out your entire party in super-pimped armor and give them Swords of Doom. Does their ECL suddenly soar?

No, it does not.

Because the rules are clear. Stuff like that does not affect ECL.

It doesn't matter if your character's power lies in summoned minions, magic arms and armor, or evocation spells. They are all part of the character. None of them affect ECL.

Now that we're [hopefully] clear with the original topic of this discussion, let's say a few words about NPCs.

Again, the rule is crystal clear.

A golem created by a transmuter does not add to the CR of the transmuter. This golem sold to a new master does not increase the CR of the new master (just like pimped-out armor or weapon does not increase CR). The system works because of the checks and balances (creation cost, purchase cost etc.).

It is the DM's task to make sure that NPCs don't get control over power inappropriate for their level. Just like a 3rd level hostile NPC mage cannot assault a 1st level party with Meteor Swarm & Time Stop, so an NPC without the capabilities to get an Iron Golem should not have an Iron Golem. If an NPC has an Iron Golem, that means he has spent a lot of money/XP on making or purchasing it, and is consequently lacking in other departments (less powerful magic items etc.). This would make the encounter properly balanced.

Just slapping a bigger CR on things because the DM is too lazy to work out a proper solution by the rules - it's not the way to game. And it will sooner or later bite the players in the butt - when the DM starts slapping ECL onto PCs for doing something the DM has no real concept of, and therefore thinks it's so megapowerful it breaks the game without a ginormous kick in the nads that is ECL.

I hope this helped to clarify the situation.

Over and out - back to fencing workout, LARP season's starting! 8=))

with an e

2009-04-15, 07:55 PM

Your argument is falsely predicated on the assumption that the expected wealth of a level n character is the total amount of assets a level n character holds.

First, let us examine the problem strictly from a mechanics point of view: A CR m encounter will given treasures equal to value x, regardless of the level of the party that defeats the encounter. However, a CR m encounter gives less xp for a party of level n as n increases, and there is a point where xp gain is 0. Thus, a character of level n can gain arbitrarily large amounts of wealth by looting low level encounters. Therefore, the assumption that a given character of level n must have the expected wealth of a character of level n is false. Reduction in the value of equipments is not a consequence required by the game mechanics. It is a consequence of DM decision. Therefore, it is meaningless to discuss the wealth of a character without first examining what the DM should do.

Second, let us factor in DM decisions. You argue that a transmuter with a golem should have his equipment value decreased by a number equal to the value of the golem in order to balance the game. This constitutes an admission that, holding everything else equal, the addition of the golem makes the encounter more difficult for the party. The consequence is clearly that the party should be rewarded more for beating the encounter with a golem present, either by increasing the CR of the encounter or by rewarding xp separately, both of which result in an increase in xp gained.

Your only hope, then, is by arguing that, in any encounter, a DM must identify one or more leaders and adhere strictly to precisely the total resources the leaders should have, as dictated by the rulebooks, and tune the number of followers/spells/equipment/minions/etc accordingly. I will let the absurdity of the condition speak for itself.

David Argall

2009-04-16, 02:12 AM

If xykon has spell focus and greater spell focus then the spell DC will rise to 42, and no one can resist that special number.
a- A 1st level can with a roll of 20.
b- V is epic, and epic-epic. His estimated level is around 75. That means she saves vs DC 42 on a 2.

do we have to engage in spelling everything out?
Pretty much.

The rules are in the books, crystal clear, and quoted here twice no less. Why is there still denial of the obvious?
I think you are in fact saying the same as I am, merely reaching the conclusion from the opposite direction.
Thus you say the opposition should have only level appropriate equipment, which does mean you can ignore what that equipment is. You are saying that reward and challenge need to be balanced. So far, so good.

However, the game should not be limited this way. We want flexibility for our challenges. Thus we want 3rd level foes who are in fact only 1st level opponents due to advantages given the party, and 3rd level foes who have special advantages that make them 5th level. [Notable here was a Dungeon adventure of some years back when a young apprentice got into her master's collection of magic items. Despite the enemy being zero level, the magic at her disposal and the need of the party not to harm an innocent made the actual challenge much higher, and so was the reward. We hardly want to forbid such adventures, and so the system must function with it.]

First, the rule is not about "summoning", but very explicitely about any sort of magical creation. That would include Conjuration [calling], Animate Dead, Create Undead, Craft Golem, etc.
Strictly speaking, it only covers the temporary advantages, those that will not affect future battles.

You use the features of your class, feats, skills to get yourself power. Why should some cases of this cause an ECL adjustment, and others not?
It is not that some do and some don't, but that in the real world of adventures, we often find that the opposition does not fit a rigid mold, and shouldn't.

Because the rules are clear. Stuff like that does not affect ECL.
If the DM follows the formula. If he chooses to experiment, we find cases where it does.
Say our DM finds he has been too generous and the party now has the equipment that makes it levels tougher than their official level. The options are to give them a bunch of encounters based on their official level that will be boringly easy, or challenge them by treating them as the higher level. The clear choice is to challenge them, and treat our overequipped 5th levels as 7th level, or whatever.

It is the DM's task to make sure that NPCs don't get control over power inappropriate for their level.
No, the DM's task is to challenge the players, and give them the proper rewards for overcoming the challenge. No problem at all about NPCs having wildly wrong amounts of equipment, as long as the result is the proper level of challenge.

Killer Angel

2009-04-16, 02:23 AM

a- A 1st level can with a roll of 20.
b- V is epic, and epic-epic. His estimated level is around 75. That means she saves vs DC 42 on a 2.

I think that the specific number 42, was a "Hitchhiker's" reference.

lord_khaine

2009-04-16, 03:50 AM

Initiative is a Dexterity check.

The PHB gives us two types of checks: vs. a fixed DC (obviously not our case), and Opposed Checks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
Opposed Checks

An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins.

When two actors roll for Initiative, they roll a DEX check and compare the results. The higher result wins Initiative, the lower loses. When more than two actors are involved, each makes an opposed check against each of the others, and the result is the Initiative order.

It seems very straightforward to me. Initiative is an opposed Dexterity check.

it seems just as straight to me that initiative is a untyped Dex check, the section in you phb you refer to does not say that those 2 types of check are the only kind there is, and under initiative it just say that its a dex check, so after what i can see RAW say you cant use MOP on initiative.

its not that i cant see the arguments for MOP on initiative, but it is something that would vary from gm to gm, so i do think it should not be used in a RAW discussion.

Seriously, David, do we have to engage in spelling everything out? The rules are in the books, crystal clear, and quoted here twice no less. Why is there still denial of the obvious?

First, the rule is not about "summoning", but very explicitely about any sort of magical creation. That would include Conjuration [calling], Animate Dead, Create Undead, Craft Golem, etc.

i disagree here, i can accept that the price for a golem makes it about the same thing as a magic item, so as long as its price have been taken from its owners WBL then it should be countet as one of his magic items, and not give xp on its own (unless defeatet on its own)

but with animate dead i disagree, because the price of making a fire giant skeleton to squash puny fighters costs both the gemstones needet to animate it, and the fire giant skeleton that was animated.
since you cant really price a FGS, then the villain gets his undead servant to cheap for it to be considderet either a part of his skills, or a magic item, and therefore i belive it should give xp.

as for calling spells, then i belive its something of the same, the price on the spell is balanced on that the outsider called have to be paid to fight a singel fight, with gold that instead could have been used for a magic item that would give a permanent powerboost.

but again for the villain, who usualy only appear in a singel fight, then he pays for a temporary assistance, but effectively get what is a permanent power boost.
so again, i think the villain gets to much for his money on both undeads and called creatures, and therefore they should give xp.

factotum

2009-04-16, 04:16 AM

In terms of Power, V is WAY more powerful than Xykon. But pure power doesn't always win. Xykon beats Durokon even Durokon WAS more powerful than Xykon at the time (read more Start of Darkness for more details).

To be fair, Dorukan fought like an absolute idiot, and furthermore, one of his spells had no effect simply because the strip was in black and white rather than colour! A smartly-played Dorukan could probably have wiped the floor with Xykon, but it would have made things a bit tricky if Xykon got destroyed in the prequel... :smallsmile:

King of Nowhere

2009-04-16, 06:10 AM

b- V is epic, and epic-epic. His estimated level is around 75. That means she saves vs DC 42 on a 2.

Actually, V is not level 75. V can cast spells like 2 level 30 and one level 14 put together, and that is not little thing, but if V was really 75th level, then he would get 75 hd, +18 INT for level enhancement, +39 base will saves and +25 base fort and reflexes saves, and gold... well, I know the whealt per level only up to level 20, and I find that you can fit it decently with the function
gold=100*level^3
That way, V should have about 42 million gold pieces, which means equipment powerful enough that a first level commoner could defeat Xykon with it. V clearly lacks all this stuff that would make him level 75. He's still pretty scary, though.

If the DM follows the formula. If he chooses to experiment, we find cases where it does.
Say our DM finds he has been too generous and the party now has the equipment that makes it levels tougher than their official level. The options are to give them a bunch of encounters based on their official level that will be boringly easy, or challenge them by treating them as the higher level. The clear choice is to challenge them, and treat our overequipped 5th levels as 7th level, or whatever.

When my party rolled the stats, three of them got uber rolls (I mean, two of them got a 16 as second highest roll, and one even got a 16 as third highest roll). So to keep things fair, I had the rest of the party reroll until they rolled high enough. Then I gave the whole party a level adjustment of +1 due to very high rolls. Which only means I give them harder fights.
In the party there's a paladin, so every monster that relies strongly on fear effect has his CR lowered because it is less effective against the party. CR means how difficult is the encounter, not some abstract value on a manual. I feel the master should play with CR to make the fight challenging and to keeps things fair.

After all, undead prince, when you said

And if the DM wants to make the game more challenging, he can do it perfectly well without bending the rules. He can throw in more enemies with greater powers (and higher CR), acknowledging the party's gaming prowess and making the players feel they're really achieving something, defeating enemies well above the level-appropriate Challenge rating.

and I said

my personal solution would be giving a level adjustment to the whole party, to reflect the fact that they're more powerful than expected from their level [and obviously giving them stronger enemies]
weren't we saying the same thing? Is there a real difference between giving the party enemies of level higher than their, or considering the party of higher level before deciding what would be an appropriate level encounter?

factotum

2009-04-16, 07:12 AM

Actually, V is not level 75. V can cast spells like 2 level 30 and one level 14 put together, and that is not little thing, but if V was really 75th level, then he would get 75 hd, +18 INT for level enhancement, +39 base will saves and +25 base fort and reflexes saves, and gold... well, I know the whealt per level only up to level 20, and I find that you can fit it decently with the function
gold=100*level^3
That way, V should have about 42 million gold pieces, which means equipment powerful enough that a first level commoner could defeat Xykon with it. V clearly lacks all this stuff that would make him level 75. He's still pretty scary, though.

Er, what? The "gold per level" guidelines are meant for NPC characters (or PCs that are rolled at some level other than 1) to show how much money a character of that level should have--they don't mean that if you suddenly gain 60 levels that millions of gold pieces are going to appear out of nowhere just so you have level-appropriate wealth!

As for the other points you mentioned, do you have any proof that V *doesn't* have these things? The black dragon wasn't even able to scratch him, after all, even when she swallowed him whole!

SPoD

2009-04-16, 07:36 AM

:vaarsuvius: <Multiple spell combo, including scrying, Moment of Prescience to win initiative, Epic Dispel to ruin the Cloister, followed by a Greater Teleport to Xykon's location.>
:vaarsuvius: Ha! I win initiative and—
:xykon: *pop!*
:vaarsuvius: ...Where did he go?
:redcloak: Oh, he casts Contingency every few weeks such that any creature teleporting, plane shifting, or otherwise magically transporting to within 300 feet of him causes him to Teleport to a random location. Contingency works instantaneously, you know--it doesn't wait for initiative.
:vaarsuvius: ...
:redcloak: Have fun, you won't believe the sick custom spells he's going to cast in the ten minutes it takes you to scry on him again. You should just be thankful that Improved Contingency isn't core, he wanted to make it a Time Stop.

King of Nowhere

2009-04-16, 10:07 AM

Er, what? The "gold per level" guidelines are meant for NPC characters (or PCs that are rolled at some level other than 1) to show how much money a character of that level should have--they don't mean that if you suddenly gain 60 levels that millions of gold pieces are going to appear out of nowhere just so you have level-appropriate wealth!

The gold per level guidelines establish that a PC of a certain level is expected to have approximately a certain amount of whealt, either because he was ccreated with it, or because he took it by adventuring. If a character don't have a level appropriate whealt, he may fail to display his level appropriate power. i.e. a monster with CR 10 is supposed to be a fight for a party of tenth level with an appropriate whealt.
If a character suddenly gain extra levels, he has that levels, but don't have the expected power of a character of said level, because he lacks a lot of magic items. Magic items are considered a part of the character's power. It is written on the manual.
So, even if V was really 75th level, he wouldn't have the power expected by a 75th level character. Ok, he would still have enough power to, say, slay an ancient black dragon with class levels with little effort, of teleporting a whole fleet, but if he met a monster with a CR of 75 :smalleek: V is doomed to lose

As for the other points you mentioned, do you have any proof that V *doesn't* have these things? The black dragon wasn't even able to scratch him, after all, even when she swallowed him whole!

Good point. Yet the soul splice was described as if V gained the spellcasting capability and nothing else. Someone said he gained the half-fiend template. We don't know. But I find much more likely that V didn't effectively leveled like 90 times when taking the splice.

Volkov

2009-04-16, 10:10 AM

a- A 1st level can with a roll of 20.
b- V is epic, and epic-epic. His estimated level is around 75. That means she saves vs DC 42 on a 2.
Amazing, your the first person I have ever met to not get the "42" reference. I thought this day would never come. Really, it's so hard to find a person who has never read the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy series.

lord_khaine

2009-04-16, 10:22 AM

<Multiple spell combo, including scrying, Moment of Prescience to win initiative, Epic Dispel to ruin the Cloister, followed by a Greater Teleport to Xykon's location.>
Ha! I win initiative and—
*pop!*
...Where did he go?
Oh, he casts Contingency every few weeks such that any creature teleporting, plane shifting, or otherwise magically transporting to within 300 feet of him causes him to Teleport to a random location. Contingency works instantaneously, you know--it doesn't wait for initiative.
...
Have fun, you won't believe the sick custom spells he's going to cast in the ten minutes it takes you to scry on him again. You should just be thankful that Improved Contingency isn't core, he wanted to make it a Time Stop.

i think you mean < Multiple spell combo finished by timestop, teleport and finaly Dimensional lock> resulting in Xykon instead having to say "huh? why the heck am i still here"

SPoD

2009-04-16, 11:37 AM

i think you mean < Multiple spell combo finished by timestop, teleport and finaly Dimensional lock> resulting in Xykon instead having to say "huh? why the heck am i still here"

No, I meant exactly what I said, since that was the "foolproof" method being used to defeat Xykon earlier. The point being that if you have to alter it to deal with a possible tactic--even if it only requires a single spell to do so--it is not foolproof. If the poster who suggested the plan did not think to add Dimensional Lock to his carefully enumerated list of spells cast, why should we assume that V would?

However, even that assumes that a Contingency cannot activate during someone else's Time Stop, and there's no firm ruling on that. Time is not really stopped, after all, it is just moving very fast for you. Contingency happens immediately and without conscious input, so it could potentially activate in the nanoseconds between one of V's time-stop actions and another, whisking Xykon away before he can cast Dimensional Lock. I'm not saying it WILL work this way, but our author has certainly taken more dramatic liberties with interpretations of spells in the past.

And that doesn't even take into account something utterly crazy like, say, the epic feat Spell Stowaway (Disjunction), which would leave Vaarsuvius's soul-splice disjoined if he/she tried to cast Disjunction on Xykon. Or the aforementioned Improved Contingency, which would allow him to have a contingent Time Stop inside of V's Time Stop. Or some wacky epic garbage that he researched because the comic has specifically mentioned that he's been sitting around researching spells and making magic items.

In other words, for every tactic, there is a counter-tactic, and there is a hard limit on how many spells V could cast during a Time Stop. How many spells can he/she cast before it ends? How many tactics does he/she have time to preemptively shut down? All we need for Xykon to win is for him to think of ONE counter that V hasn't thought of first and survive that first round, because V does not have the hit points/immunities/saving throws to survive even one of Xykon's assaults. V is NOT 60th level, he/she is 14th level with a bunch of extra spellcasting tacked on. If Xykon survives the first round, V will crumple like aluminum foil.

Volkov

2009-04-16, 01:19 PM

Not to mention the fact that Liches enjoy a long, long list of immunities, and that for undead, fortitude saves are based on charisma on the rare occasion that they need to make one, and guess what, Xykon is known to have a very high charisma score. Also Vaarsuvius can lose a huge chunk of his power at a time if he is surprised. Also Xykon probably has nearly a thousand clerics to heal him, Tsusiko, the MITD and Red cloak, if the need arises, not to mention Red cloak and Tsusiko themselves.

Also Xykon can cause Vaarsuvius to use disjunction on an artifact, which would utterly devastate him if he succeeded on disjoining it, and he has a very good chance of disjoining said artifact, and V still has the saving throws of his old 14th level self, and once the gods punish him for disjoining the artifact, V will be left completely without magical power.

Also Tsusiko, Red cloak, Xykon, and the Hobgoblin Clerics almost certainly created a ton of undead in the mean time, in his spare time Red Cloak could have created an army of Hueceva's, Death Knights, and Eyes of Fear and flame, and the hobgoblins would have turned the majority of the dead bodies into undead of some sort, that's nearly twenty thousand Undead plus an unknown amount from Civilian casualties, which I estimate would add another twenty thousand.

In a straight up fight at Azure City, Vaarsuvius can only lose, not to mention that when Vaarsuvius finds out Xykon just contingently teleported away, the reaction would probably cause him to lose his hold on Ganonron. Vaarsuvius with merely Jephton to back him up doesn't have much hope against Xykon, and I think Ganonron would find Xykon to be a much better host than Vaarsuvius, Xykon+Ganonron would outmatch Vaarsuvius+Jephton.

Both components of Xykonoron as I would like to call it would be more powerful than their counterparts in Vaarphton, as I would call him. Xykon is more powerful than Vaarsuvius, and Ganonron is probably more powerful than Jephton.

V would lose.

Undead Prince

2009-04-16, 02:15 PM

:vaarsuvius: <Multiple spell combo, including scrying, Moment of Prescience to win initiative, Epic Dispel

Will dispel all buffs, including Contingency.

End of story.

No, really.

Now, if Xykon does for some reason manage to get away:

:redcloak: Have fun, you won't believe the sick custom spells he's going to cast in the ten minutes it takes you to scry on him again. You should just be thankful that Improved Contingency isn't core, he wanted to make it a Time Stop.
:vaarsuvius: Heightened Dominate Monster. That periapt on your neck, which sends my Detect Evil and Arcane Sight readings through the roof, may it be the lich's phylactery?

:redcloak: Yes, sir. I mean, ma'am. In retrospect, Xykon's escape plan wasn't exactly foolproof, ma'am. Sir.

:vaarsuvius: Quickened Disintegrate. Now, to finish off the villain. Time Stop. Quickened Ethereal Jaunt, Moment of Prescience, Quickened *insert favorite anti-magic protection spell here*, Epic Scrying (standard action), Epic Dispel, Quickened Greater Teleport.

:vaarsuvius: Heigh...

:xykon: Time Stop.Yeah, I totally readied it. Gate: Gibbering Orb. Shapechange: Very Young Force Dragon. Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Ready Action: Disjunction. Now, you gender-neutral emo loser, let's see who's the real bad guy in this strip.

Undead Prince

2009-04-16, 02:46 PM

Not to mention the fact that Liches enjoy a long, long list of immunities

Of which V is well aware. And which do not present any trouble against direct damage or control undead spells.

, and that for undead, fortitude saves are based on charisma

The modifier for a nonability is +0. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm) Undead can use Charisma on concentration checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType), and that's it.

Also Xykon probably has nearly a thousand clerics to heal him

Maybe. A thousand hobgoblin 1st level clerics. But only eight of them can actually be close enough to Xykon to make that Inflict Light Wounds touch. And none can do anything to make a difference in the fight.

Red Cloak could have created an army of Hueceva's, Death Knights, and Eyes of Fear and flame

Why do I have a feeling that you're a bit fuzzy on how these undead can be created?

the hobgoblins would have turned the majority of the dead bodies into undead of some sort, that's nearly twenty thousand Undead plus an unknown amount from Civilian casualties, which I estimate would add another twenty thousand.

40,000 1HD undead would require 1 million gp to create, and 10,000 1st level clerics to control. Not to mention, Redcloak and Tsukiko would have to scribe scrolls/craft wands for these lowly clerics to even cast Animate Dead in the first place. And the end result would only be 1HD skeletons of NPC warriors and commoners. [hint: of no significance at all]

In a straight up fight at Azure City, Vaarsuvius can only lose

Whoa, dude. Care to support that claim?

No, wait, you did. 40,000 1HD undead. Yeah, with that kinda power Xykon's gonna pwn V.

, not to mention that when Vaarsuvius finds out Xykon just contingently teleported away, the reaction would probably cause him to lose his hold on Ganonron.

No, he will just ask the DM to re-read Seed: Dispel.

V would lose.

With those tactics? Yeah, he'll die laughing once he sees the undead.

Also Xykon can cause Vaarsuvius to use disjunction on an artifact

Actually, that's not too far-fetched, considering that Disjunction is a burst and Xykon always keeps Redcloak nearby. Being crushed by the Dark One would certainly come as a surprise to V. But, anticlimatic, since Disjunction is usually the first thing that gets cast in a fight.

lord_khaine

2009-04-16, 03:46 PM

No, I meant exactly what I said, since that was the "foolproof" method being used to defeat Xykon earlier. The point being that if you have to alter it to deal with a possible tactic--even if it only requires a single spell to do so--it is not foolproof. If the poster who suggested the plan did not think to add Dimensional Lock to his carefully enumerated list of spells cast, why should we assume that V would?

because we assume that V is smarter than that poster?
still in his defence, then i would say that having a contingency Teleport go off if someone uses dimensional travel close by sounds like a stupid idea, that can only lead to a lot of unwanted dimensional travel.

its an interesting thought that contingency might trigger during a timestop, but i dont think it will happen. Time stop says you are undetectable while it last, so if the contingency cant detect the Time stopper then it cant trigger from whatever he does.

V is NOT 60th level, he/she is 14th level with a bunch of extra spellcasting tacked on. If Xykon survives the first round, V will crumple like aluminum foil.

thats even more speculation now, first of all, we know that V's caster level must be above 20 to allow for epic spells, but beyond that its just speculation, though i do belive lv 60 is a absurd high number.
also we have no idea about how the Splice actualy work, V might have 14hd, or he might have 60, until we see some more action its just guessing.

David Argall

2009-04-16, 05:16 PM

Actually, V is not level 75. V can cast spells like 2 level 30 and one level 14 put together,
V casts Disjuncture, a spell that makes little sense if her casting level is much below 100. He is now weaker, but her caster level still has to be something entirely absurd.
These were supposed to be the three strongest mages ever. They dealt with worlds, not world. They were epic-epic, and Xykon is an apprentice by comparison. A battle plan that gives the lich a chance is a plan where V is kicking back and not using full ability.

When my party rolled the stats, three of them got uber rolls (I mean, two of them got a 16 as second highest roll, and one even got a 16 as third highest roll). So to keep things fair, I had the rest of the party reroll until they rolled high enough. Then I gave the whole party a level adjustment of +1 due to very high rolls. Which only means I give them harder fights.
This is the sort of reason that you don't roll for stats.

Crisis21

2009-04-16, 05:40 PM

Undead Prince

2009-04-16, 06:02 PM

because we assume that V is smarter than that poster?

You so assume, huh? Well, before the assuming, did you bother to read the previous posts, or the Dispel Seed description?

Apparently not. Too busy assuming 8=))

still in his defence, then i would say that having a contingency Teleport go off if someone uses dimensional travel close by sounds like a stupid idea

Yep, it is. Time Stop is so much better. And the condition should be "if I'm attacked". It won't get triggered by low-level stuff, because by the time you can cast Time Stop, you're invisible and untouchable to the rabble. And if you're visible and touchable, then you want that Time Stop triggered.

its an interesting thought that contingency might trigger during a timestop, but i dont think it will happen. Time stop says you are undetectable while it last, so if the contingency cant detect the Time stopper then it cant trigger from whatever he does.

First, it's only the caster of Time Stop who's undetectable, not the spell itself or spells cast by the caster within Time Stop. Second, the caster is undetectable because he speeds up, not because he falls out of the space-time continuum. Therefore, all magical effects will still take place, and if they take place, the condition is satisfied and the Contingency is triggered. That's how I see it.

thats even more speculation now, first of all, we know that V's caster level must be above 20 to allow for epic spells, but beyond that its just speculation, though i do belive lv 60 is a absurd high number.

It's not if you consider how confidently V disjoined the anti-magic field. Only 1% of that happening per caster level.

also we have no idea about how the Splice actualy work, V might have 14hd, or he might have 60, until we see some more action its just guessing.

The battle with ABD showed that he's got more than 14hd now. He was hit by the acid breath (25 average damage on succesful save, 50 otherwise), by the numerous melee attacks that would have gone over the Stoneskin, and by the residual damage from Finger of Death (24 average, 18 minimum), then Swallowed Whole and spent a round inside ABD, so bite damage (20 average, 10 with Stoneskin) and unsaveable bludgeoning+acid damage inside (Stoneskin and Acid Immunity help here though). All together, it would be about 80 damage. With his 16 CON (12 base, +4 Bear's Endurance) and 1d4 hit die, he'd have around 76 hp by lvl 14. The damage should have incapacitated or killed him. Yet, he seemed unscratched up to the moment he was swallowed, and again when he emerged. Even if he rolled high on his hit dice, the ABD rolled low on its damage, and taking into account Shapechange's healing of 1 hp per CL, he still should have emerged as a battered wreck. Instead, not even a scratch.

Definitely doesn't look like 14 HD, says this poster.

Also, the calmness/derision with which he welcomed the ABD's FOD. A 14th level Wizard has a base Fort save of +4; +3 from CON = +7 total. +8 from Spell Immunity = +15. The ABD had to have 17 CHA to cast 7th level spells; likely 18 CHA since dragons' CHA increases by increments of 2; so the DC of her FoD would = 10 +7 +4 = 21, not taking into account the possibility of her taking Spell Focus: Necromancy (she was very magically inclined, enough to take extra sorcerer levels). That's a 30% chance of V being slain instantly. Something makes me think he would have added Death Ward to his buff list if there was such a risk of snuffing it. Since he doesn't care to do it, +8 to saves from Spell Immunity must be enough to ascertain that the risk of falling prey to ABD's spells is negligible. That would imply a base save of +10 or more - which is well into epic level territory (20th level wizard only has +6 Fort).

Nope, not like 14 HD at all.

V's epic.

Too bad his brains and his spine weren't supercharged as well. Maybe they were, for the first couple of rounds, but the effect's wearing off rapidly.

Undead Prince

2009-04-16, 06:15 PM

When my party rolled the stats, three of them got uber rolls (I mean, two of them got a 16 as second highest roll, and one even got a 16 as third highest roll). So to keep things fair, I had the rest of the party reroll until they rolled high enough. Then I gave the whole party a level adjustment of +1 due to very high rolls. Which only means I give them harder fights.

This is the sort of reason that you don't roll for stats.

What's wrong with these stats? With a 32 point buy (normal for big campaigns), you can get two 16s and two 14s, with 8s in the rest (dumps). Or, an 18, a 16, and a 14, with 8s in the rest. Why the hell is there an ECL involved?

And yeah, that's a good example of why you don't roll for stats. If you roll bad, you gimp the char. If you roll good, you get envied by other players, and get an ECL from a DM who doesn't know how to solve these things. Lose-lose.

These were supposed to be the three strongest mages ever. They dealt with worlds, not world. They were epic-epic, and Xykon is an apprentice by comparison. A battle plan that gives the lich a chance is a plan where V is kicking back and not using full ability.

This is OoTS, after all. And frankly, so far the mages have not stricken me as particularly ingenious. They're evil and nasty, sure, but they can bicker at crucial moments (ABD's Acid Breath), and didn't have the sense to suggest to V some of the more powergamer strategies available to him. V himself is a puss compared to Xykon's experience with killing stuff and outsmarting epic opponents. Plus, V's mentally unstable ATM. He may easily overlook some vital element, then get shocked and lose a spliced soul, and then it's all over for him.

Lamech

2009-04-16, 06:29 PM

V casts Disjuncture, a spell that makes little sense if her casting level is much below 100. He is now weaker, but her caster level still has to be something entirely absurd.
These were supposed to be the three strongest mages ever. They dealt with worlds, not world. They were epic-epic, and Xykon is an apprentice by comparison. A battle plan that gives the lich a chance is a plan where V is kicking back and not using full ability.
Their are a lot of plans that give the lich a chance.

One) Divinination: see into the future. This is a great spell, if Xykon has a couple clerics cast it every so often he can easily see any threats ahead of time. A trip to the oracle and he can see where V might teleport. Since V hasn't been shown to check her teleport destinations drop a chamber full of lava, with a fancy anti-magic field trap at the end point and we have a dead V. (I assume the lava will keep him from speaking in a "strong voice" being really dense and all, so unless she can cast a epic spell with out a verbal component...) Or a sphere of annihilation much better if Xykon can get one.
Or Xykon can repeatedly port when ever he gets scried.
Or Xykon could be hiding in the city of doors.
Or hiding close to that fancy tower of no magic in the outlands. (With a nice army to kill V when she ports in.)

Two: Anticipate teleport could catch V if she doesn't happen to have a dispel city epic level spell in his back pocket. Disjunction and have the MitD/minions annihilate him as soon as he pops. (Shadow's spring to mind as one option.) A contigency spell works too although its not as good at killing V. (The condition for many contigency spells is "I attempt to cast feather fall".)
Two a: even if V does have a city wide dispel Xykon could have a permanent cat's grace, bull's strength, ect. He would know he lost his defenses and could probably assume epicness at work. Cue the running like hell.

Three: Deck of many things, fate card. That thoroughly handles V.

Four: Be astral projecting from a nice small demi-plane with some vicious precautions. Cloister, the only portal being blocked by something deadly, anticipate teleport over the whole place. Deadly traps out the wazzo (including a disjoining one). Or just baning teleportation magic, and scrying spells. Maybe the oracle can find one of those.

Option one V can NOT defeat. Two is dependent on V not taking a high degree of precaution. She hasn't shown that with his new found power, so that should work. Option three works if Xykon could find a deck, and if how the fate card is interperted. Option four would be difficult for V to defeat; she can't dispel crap ahead of time. It is impossible if the plane has those natural limits on magic.

40,000 1HD undead would require 1 million gp to create, and 10,000 1st level clerics to control. Not to mention, Redcloak and Tsukiko would have to scribe scrolls/craft wands for these lowly clerics to even cast Animate Dead in the first place. And the end result would only be 1HD skeletons of NPC warriors and commoners. [hint: of no significance at all]Umm... in the OotS verse the undead spells have never been shown to use components and have never been shown to have a limit on undead controlled. Nor have they ever been shown to take more than a round to cast.

Undead Prince

2009-04-16, 07:01 PM

One) Divinination: see into the future. This is a great spell, if Xykon has a couple clerics cast it every so often he can easily see any threats ahead of time.
[...]
Option one V can NOT defeat.

Mind Blank defeats all divinations. And V has already cast it.

Also, Divination is a primitive spell that doesn't guarantee anything useful.

Or Xykon can repeatedly port when ever he gets scried.

LOL, now that would be funny 8=) V could run him entirely out of 5th and 7th level spells (more if you count metamagic) by simply scrying on him. If only Contingency worked that way (it's a one spell deal only).

Or Xykon could be hiding in the city of doors.

Can't hide from epic scrying. No, not even under the Lady's bed.

Or hiding close to that fancy tower of no magic in the outlands. (With a nice army to kill V when she ports in.)

V can be a sport and Gate in a Hecatonheires to wipe the floor with that army.

Two: Anticipate teleport could catch V if she doesn't happen to have a dispel city epic level spell in his back pocket.

Which he does. I mean, he was going to bust Cloister. Which was stated to only be bustable by epic spells.

Disjunction and have the MitD/minions annihilate him as soon as he pops.

MiTD? Yeah, you know it's got tough when MiTD is your only line of defense 8=)))

Seriously though, Xykon doesn't have any minions that could lay a hand (or claw) on a properly played V.

(The condition for many contigency spells is "I attempt to cast feather fall".)

Yeah, that's a good one. Assuming though, that you can attempt to cast feather fall, i.e. make an immediate action. For instance there's this thing called a surprise round.

Two a: even if V does have a city wide dispel Xykon could have a permanent cat's grace, bull's strength, ect. He would know he lost his defenses and could probably assume epicness at work. Cue the running like hell.

That's why all the spells were cast while within the Time Stop.

Three: Deck of many things, fate card. That thoroughly handles V.

The Deck has a long record of ruining users before it does anything useful.

Four: Be astral projecting from a nice small demi-plane with some vicious precautions. Cloister, the only portal being blocked by something deadly, anticipate teleport over the whole place. Deadly traps out the wazzo (including a disjoining one). Or just baning teleportation magic, and scrying spells.

All spells and spell effects destroyed/suppressed by Epic Dispel.

Umm... in the OotS verse the undead spells have never been shown to use components and have never been shown to have a limit on undead controlled. Nor have they ever been shown to take more than a round to cast.

Just because it wasn't spelled out doesn't mean the rules don't work. Xykon animated zombies without the onyx, but he might have been epic from the beginning of the main storyarc (haven't read SoD), and thus have the Ignore Material Components feat. Among him and Redcloak, he'd have enough CLs to command a decent army of low-level undead. As for Redcloak creating his special undead, the process is off camera (and really, huecuvas and death knights don't even have a reliable method of creation).

Over and out.

Ridureyu

2009-04-16, 07:49 PM

I thought I'd throw my two cents in here after reading a few scenarios.

Yes, V might be more powerful than Xykon.

Yes, V might be able to beat Xykon in a fight.

The problem is that Xykon cheats. He takes gratuitous amounts of cheap shots, and he does it extremely well.

He doesn't fight other people on their terms, he fights them on his own terms. Which means that he's stacked the deck heavily in his favor. And he's had alot of time to do this while sitting around Azure City bored out of his undead skull.

Yes, V might have a couple of epic level evil cheerleaders, but the fact remains that V doesn't have nearly the experience being an evil bastard that Xykon does.

End result? By hook or by crook, Xykon wins.

Hilariously, I think you've got it there.

V: "Now, Xykon, I will banish you tot he stygian depths of the unrelated, where youw ill forever realize my m agical superiority through my own study and power!"

Xykon: "Actually, no. See, I've got Villain Death Exemption, as detailed in the rulebook."

V: "I have heard of no such rulebook."

Xykon: "Here, take a look."

V: "This is not a rulebook! It's merely a bunch of Symbols of Death!"

Xykon: "Finger of death!"

V: "You are foolish to try something as silly as this against me!"

Xykon: "Finger of death!"

V: "Don't you realize that the DC for that spell is at least thirty levels lower than my lowest save!"

Xykon: "Finger of death!"
Xykon: "Finger of death!"
Xykon: "Finger of death!"

V: "In fact, there is no conceivable way that could destroy me."

Xykon: "Finger of death!"
Xykon: "Finger of death!"

V: "You have no chance at all, in any way, shape, or form. I would have to roll a 1 in order to-"

Xykon: "Finger of death!"

V: "AARGH!"

Xykon: "Everyone rolls a critical fail sometime."

V: "This is foolish! Nobody could have that many spell slots of such a high level!"

Xykon: "I bought the DM pizza and fudged my stat sheet."

Lamech

2009-04-16, 10:47 PM

Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm) this has some interesting points. No hitting held objects, no targeting creatures. He can't dispel buffs while time stopped. Thats important.

Mind Blank defeats all divination's. And V has already cast it.

Also, Divination is a primitive spell that doesn't guarantee anything useful.
Which why you ask if you'll die. Not if someone kills you. And you can just have multiple casters use it if a caster fails. Which Xykon has access too. Also while slightly abusive contact outer plane mutliple castings pump your checks so you don't fail.

LOL, now that would be funny 8=) V could run him entirely out of 5th and 7th level spells (more if you count metamagic) by simply scrying on him. If only Contingency worked that way (it's a one spell deal only).
How many epic spell slots does V have again? Yeah not enough. (Don't forget Xykon probably has a mind blank up if losing one part of the cloister hits them all.)

Can't hide from epic scrying. No, not even under the Lady's bed.He has to get in. Which is impossible via teleporting which means he has to find a door. Which guess what gives Xykon the chance to run the hell away. Again. Meh... this plane has a big chance of failure.

V can be a sport and Gate in a Hecatonheires to wipe the floor with that army.
No. I should have been more clear , the tower in the center of the outlands. That means no magic, no extraordinary abilities, no supernatural abilities, no deific abilities. None. Guess what, a few thousand arrows will kill almost anything under those conditions. Even gods. V will almost certainly go down along with almost anything he can summon. Lets see here ten thousand arrows = average 500 hits *6.5 average damage = dead abomination. Then V dies too as he must get the creature with in range.

Which he does. I mean, he was going to bust Cloister. Which was stated to only be bustable by epic spells.
That just removes the cloister. Unless V has a very wide area epic dispel most of the city will be unaffected. The question isn't if the cloister goes "poof" if its if the dispel is wide enough to catch Xykon in it.

Yeah, that's a good one. Assuming though, that you can attempt to cast feather fall, i.e. make an immediate action. For instance there's this thing called a surprise round. You seem to know what your talking about, I guess a well worded contingency is a better choice. But I'm sure it can be done.

That's why all the spells were cast while within the Time Stop.
Can't target creatures or objects the hold. So no dispelling things in Xykon unless you drop out time stop first.

MiTD? Yeah, you know it's got tough when MiTD is your only line of defense 8=)))

Seriously though, Xykon doesn't have any minions that could lay a hand (or claw) on a properly played V.
The MitD seems extremely powerful I wouldn't be surprised if slew V very quickly. And V's defenses will be gone if he is struck by a disjoin. Shadow's of course work too. If team evil gets to set up readied actions.

The Deck has a long record of ruining users before it does anything useful"Hey oracle what are the next 1000 cards that will be drawn from this deck?" I suggest using augury to determine if drawing cards is a good idea, and contact outer plane to find the fates card (multiple casts). Force minions or slaves to draw cards if your spells return undesirable results.

Quote:
Four: Be astral projecting from a nice small demi-plane with some vicious precautions. Cloister, the only portal being blocked by something deadly, anticipate teleport over the whole place. Deadly traps out the wazzo (including a disjoining one). Or just baning teleportation magic, and scrying spells.

All spells and spell effects destroyed/suppressed by Epic Dispel.
He has to be on the plane to hit Xykon or to dispel anything. And dropped out from time stop to hit attended objects. I suppose an epic port can get around all the stuff that keeps him from getting in. If Xykon is smart the traps will be help by skeletons, so no hitting them 'till he's out of times stop. As soon as he leaves disjoin, and 500 magic missiles. I'll give you a hint V dies.

Just because it wasn't spelled out doesn't mean the rules don't work. Xykon animated zombies without the onyx, but he might have been epic from the beginning of the main storyarc (haven't read SoD), and thus have the Ignore Material Components feat. Among him and Redcloak, he'd have enough CLs to command a decent army of low-level undead. As for Redcloak creating his special undead, the process is off camera (and really, huecuvas and death knights don't even have a reliable method of creation).
I would say that what Redcloak does shows nothing. He is wearing a major artifact.
SoD stuff
First spell Xykon casts is animate dead. He has no clue what it is or how it works. No gem was shown so he almost certainly cast it with out components. Redcloak later says that they lack the needed epicness to rebuild a gate. That strongly implies that neither of them were epic. So Xykon ignores the rules for material components for creating undead.

Killer Angel

2009-04-17, 02:10 AM

V: "This is foolish! Nobody could have that many spell slots of such a high level!"

Xykon: "I bought the DM pizza and fudged my stat sheet."

Well, Undead Prince's tactics are hardly arguables, but this wins! :smallbiggrin:

Killer Angel

2009-04-17, 02:24 AM

because we assume that V is smarter than that poster?

No offence, but I don't buy this kind of reasoning.
A wizard (well, every character) is smart as you play it... you play it fool? it means that the powerful wizard was too much overconfident.
We can say also that you cannot play "realistically" a character with 26 Int... you will play him always underoptimized, 'cause no one in the world have 26 int.

You cannot justify some hole in a spell tactic with "he is smarter than this, so he cannot make such a mistake", otherwise there's no match between V. and Xykon (or between every wizard Vs wizard): you look the Int stat, and you know the winner.
For example: "Xykon has 28 Int, Vaarsuvius has 25 Int... Xykon is smarter and V. simply cannot devise a strategy sufficiently smart to beat X."

factotum

2009-04-17, 03:53 AM

SoD stuff
First spell Xykon casts is animate dead. He has no clue what it is or how it works. No gem was shown so he almost certainly cast it with out components. Redcloak later says that they lack the needed epicness to rebuild a gate. That strongly implies that neither of them were epic. So Xykon ignores the rules for material components for creating undead.

When Redcloak says they can't rebuild the gate it could just mean that *he* isn't epic. Don't forget that the gates were originally built by Dorukan and Lirian, who were both epic level; it could be that you NEED both an epic level Arcane caster and a similarly levelled Divine one in order to do such a thing, and Redcloak sure as heck ain't epic, artifact or not!

lord_khaine

2009-04-17, 04:47 AM

You so assume, huh? Well, before the assuming, did you bother to read the previous posts, or the Dispel Seed description?

Apparently not. Too busy assuming 8=))

ok fine, then i will instead say it seems Proven that V is smarter than the previous poster.
better?

First, it's only the caster of Time Stop who's undetectable, not the spell itself or spells cast by the caster within Time Stop. Second, the caster is undetectable because he speeds up, not because he falls out of the space-time continuum. Therefore, all magical effects will still take place, and if they take place, the condition is satisfied and the Contingency is triggered. That's how I see it.

well, the way i see it timestop accelerates the caster to a point where he might as well have fallen out of the continuum, and therefore the Contingency cant detect that the conditions have been satisfied.
thats the way i see it.

Yep, it is. Time Stop is so much better. And the condition should be "if I'm attacked". It won't get triggered by low-level stuff, because by the time you can cast Time Stop, you're invisible and untouchable to the rabble. And if you're visible and touchable, then you want that Time Stop triggered.

thats only a little better, when you say "if im attacked" you run the risk of a random Harsh word setting your expensive contingency off.

It's not if you consider how confidently V disjoined the anti-magic field. Only 1% of that happening per caster level.

hmm, who is assuming things now?
it can be V had a backup plan in case the disjunction failed, in any case i do not belive its enough to base V's caster level on.

Nope, not like 14 HD at all.

V's epic.

yes its likely that V has gotten som sort of boost from the splice, but we dont dont what he actualy got, he might as well have gotten a inherent bonus to all his stat, or some temporary hp.
and the reason for him taking the FoD with a smile could be the same insanity that caused him to start the combat by wasting an action and a lv 10 slot on a disintegrate.

i do find it most likely that V has some of the HD from the souls, but i dont considder it proven.