Needing a bit of Dragon Disciple clarification

[ShadowFighter15]

Firstly, when a DD character undergoes the Dragon Apotheosis and becomes a half-dragon, do they gain the level adjustment or is that considered to be part of the DD class?

Secondly, this is a question relating to the future of my duskblade character. I'm going to be giving him Dragon Disciple levels at some point and I'm curious what to do as far as weapons go once he grows the teeth and claws. Do I have him continue to wield a sword and use the claws and teeth in back up, or would he be better served just using the natural weapons?

I've asked my DM if he could house-rule a duskblade's arcane channeling as being able to work through natural weapons, but I never heard back from him, so if you could provide answers to both possibilities (if we go with the house-rule or not), it'd be greatly appreciated.

[Zincorium]

Firstly, when a DD character undergoes the Dragon Apotheosis and becomes a half-dragon, do they gain the level adjustment or is that considered to be part of the DD class?

Part of the class, unless the DM states otherwise. And it would be unkind of them to do so. I suppose an argument could be made that you gain the template in addition to everything else, i.e. the stat adjustments twice, but that would be bizarre.


Secondly, this is a question relating to the future of my duskblade character. I'm going to be giving him Dragon Disciple levels at some point and I'm curious what to do as far as weapons go once he grows the teeth and claws. Do I have him continue to wield a sword and use the claws and teeth in back up, or would he be better served just using the natural weapons?

Use a big sword reach weapon and your bite as a secondary attack, multi-attack useful but not mandatory. Natural weapons only work well when you've got a bunch of them as primary (full strength bonus/attack bonus) as in a thri-keen or king of smack and you can enchant them easily.

It's the death of iteratives that kills natural attacks, not the small dice.


I've asked my DM if he could house-rule a duskblade's arcane channeling as being able to work through natural weapons, but I never heard back from him, so if you could provide answers to both possibilities (if we go with the house-rule or not), it'd be greatly appreciated.

By the book, it works. By your DM, which is more important, you don't have a no answer or a yes answer, so generally default back to book.

More importantly, it's cheaper to enchant a nice spiked chain or spear than buy a necklace of natural weapons. Enchant=more to hit.

[ShadowFighter15]

Part of the class, unless the DM states otherwise. And it would be unkind of them to do so. I suppose an argument could be made that you gain the template in addition to everything else, i.e. the stat adjustments twice, but that would be bizarre.
I thought that would be the case, but I just wanted to make sure.


Use a big sword reach weapon and your bite as a secondary attack, multi-attack useful but not mandatory. Natural weapons only work well when you've got a bunch of them as primary (full strength bonus/attack bonus) as in a thri-keen or king of smack and you can enchant them easily.

It's the death of iteratives that kills natural attacks, not the small dice.
I understand the value of reach weapons, but I kind of prefer the feel of my character as wielding a sword or scimitar. Plus the spiked chain always struck me as a bizarre weapon as likely to injure the user as the enemy.



By the book, it works. By your DM, which is more important, you don't have a no answer or a yes answer, so generally default back to book.
You sure about that? I remember looking at it once for specific mention of natural weapons and couldn't find it (unless it was in the errata; I never actually get around to reading them).

[Zincorium]

Melee attack is a melee attack is a melee attack.

If you are trying to hurt someone, and you are not doing so at range, it's a melee attack.

Natural weapons are 100%, all of the time, melee attacks. Arcane channeling, by the book, works with melee attacks, not just a specific subset. You can use a teacup as an improvised weapon and arcane channel with it if you wanted to.

Your DM is free to disagree- but time spent 'fixing' minor rules that don't hurt or help anyone is time not spent making awesome adventures.

[ShadowFighter15]

Guess I was reading too much into it.

EDIT: Ah, I know where my confusion came from; it mentions that the spell is channelled through your melee weapon, I must've instantly assumed that limited it to an actual weapon.

Something else that occurred to me recently is just what happens when the new body parts grow in and when it happens. Does it happen as soon as they take that level of the class or the next time they're asleep? I imagine the teeth would be a bit uncomfortable; especially if they push the old ones out to make room rather than reshape the ones already there (while painful, I imagine the 'growing in' method would be biologically easier).

[Yuki Akuma]

..Uh. That's... really up to you. Do characters in your campaign suddenly level up as soon as they have enough experience points? If they do, the growth should probably be sudden.

But if they require training, well, you can just say it happened during that.

[ShadowFighter15]

..Uh. That's... really up to you. Do characters in your campaign suddenly level up as soon as they have enough experience points? If they do, the growth should probably be sudden.

But if they require training, well, you can just say it happened during that.

Suppose I'll cross that bridge when I come to it; though I'm thinking of having the teeth come in violently the morning after he takes that second level of DD. Blinding pain, screaming, the old teeth falling to the floor with several specks of blood (maybe more depending on how many teeth are changed) as the new ones grow in. If it happens in a tavern, I can claim to have put an entire inn of people off their breakfast. :smallamused:

[Darrin]

Secondly, this is a question relating to the future of my duskblade character. I'm going to be giving him Dragon Disciple levels at some point and I'm curious what to do as far as weapons go once he grows the teeth and claws. Do I have him continue to wield a sword and use the claws and teeth in back up, or would he be better served just using the natural weapons?


Any natural weapons you have can be added after your iterative attacks as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty, so long as that limb/appendage isn't already being used for another attack. For example, if your duskblade was wielding a scimitar, he could add one of his claws and a bite attack as secondary attacks at a -5 penalty. If he was using a two-handed weapon, then he could add just his bite. You can do this whenever you have a natural attack, you don't need a feat or special ability to do this. Once you have both claws and a bite, you can even take Multiattack to reduce this penalty to -2, and Improved Multiattack to reduce it to zero.

If you have to have more reach, Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach (from Lords of Madness) would give you +5' reach for your scimitar or claw/bite attacks.

Are you sure you want to use Dragon Disciple to become a half-dragon? There are several quicker ways. Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon) does it in five levels rather than 10, and taking racial template levels (WotC article) does it in three.

[Nate the Snake]

Are you sure you want to use Dragon Disciple to become a half-dragon? There are several quicker ways. Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon) does it in five levels rather than 10, and taking racial template levels (WotC article) does it in three.

Well, Dragon Disciple has d12 HD, as opposed to d6 for Dragon Devotee and none for the template class, and gets wings regardless of size, instead of only if you're Large+. Also, the Devotee grants the draconic template, not half-dragon, if that matters.

[ShadowFighter15]

Are you sure you want to use Dragon Disciple to become a half-dragon? There are several quicker ways. Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon) does it in five levels rather than 10, and taking racial template levels (WotC article) does it in three.

I'm still tossing up whether or not to have him take that final level of Dragon Disciple (role-play reasons, check out his background here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=95607) (under other notes) to see why he might be reluctant to take that final step). Mainly I'm taking DD for the wings, so I'm going to be trying to time that level with a feat level and get Improved Flight (or whatever it's called; name escapes me at the moment).

That and recent events in the campaign make me think that the d12 HD will be more than welcome.

[The Glyphstone]

I understand the value of reach weapons, but I kind of prefer the feel of my character as wielding a sword or scimitar. Plus the spiked chain always struck me as a bizarre weapon as likely to injure the user as the enemy.


You could use a Glaive, they're sort of scimitar-like and have Reach. Spiked Chains are not the only reach weapon by far, they're just the most popular because they allow you to threaten adjacent enemies. Since you've got claws and bite to threaten adjacent, you're free to use any non-Chain weapon you want. Dragon Magazine has/had some obscure reach weapons, you could probably find one that looks like a scimitar polearm - check Crystalkeep's Equipment Index.

[TheCountAlucard]

Natural weapons are 100%, all of the time, melee attacks.

Except when they're not, like the manticore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/manticore.htm)'s tail spikes. :smalltongue:

But yeah, OP, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to channel into a natural weapon like claws or teeth.

[ShadowFighter15]

You could use a Glaive, they're sort of scimitar-like and have Reach. Spiked Chains are not the only reach weapon by far, they're just the most popular because they allow you to threaten adjacent enemies. Since you've got claws and bite to threaten adjacent, you're free to use any non-Chain weapon you want.

I meant that I prefer the feel of him just using a single-handed sword, rather than polearms. I'd had that image in mind when I was originally designing him as a pure duskblade so it would just feel weird to me to have him wield something like a polearm instead.

[Darrin]

Well, Dragon Disciple has d12 HD, as opposed to d6 for Dragon Devotee and none for the template class, and gets wings regardless of size, instead of only if you're Large+. Also, the Devotee grants the draconic template, not half-dragon, if that matters.

Wings can be gotten via Dragonborn of Bahumant/Rite of Rebirth for just 100 GP (no levels, no LA, no size worries). Although decent flight doesn't kick in until 12 HD.

As far as d12 vs. d6... if you need more HP, boost Con (Dragonborn gives a bit of a boost). The five levels you don't spend on Dragon Disciple can be spent on another d12 class such as Barbarian or Warblade.

However, it sounds like the OP has plenty of in-character reasons to go with Dragon Disciple, and fun trumps optimization.

[Darth Stabber]

Dragon disciple does not give the LA of Half dragon, if it did it would enter the worst PrC ever Contest, and stand a decent chance, because then it would not only be bad (I like dragon disciple, but it such a bad class), but actively terrible. It would take up your levels with mediocre abilities and then take 3 lvls away from you. If you GM houserules that you take the LA, I recommend violence, followed by getting a new gm (feel free to skip the first step if you don't like the taste of prison food). Though I actually have used Dragon disciple before. I wanted to make a human totemist with natural weapons (w/o soulmelds), and a justifiable reason to use the draconic soulmelds. Just stayed in the class long enough to get the claws and bit, but so worth it, the lvl in duskblade was an ok investment, but requiring that i have a 12 int on a point buy on a totemist just hurts. Fun Character though. if I would have made it to epic, I may have gotten the rest of the class.

Human
Barbarian1/Duskblade1/Totemist4/DD2/TotemRagerX

[hewhosaysfish]

Something else that occurred to me recently is just what happens when the new body parts grow in and when it happens. Does it happen as soon as they take that level of the class or the next time they're asleep? I imagine the teeth would be a bit uncomfortable; especially if they push the old ones out to make room rather than reshape the ones already there (while painful, I imagine the 'growing in' method would be biologically easier).

I'm thinking of having the teeth come in violently the morning after he takes that second level of DD. Blinding pain, screaming, the old teeth falling to the floor with several specks of blood (maybe more depending on how many teeth are changed) as the new ones grow in.

What about the wings? I played a dragon disciple for a while and was planned to describe him as gradually becoming sort hunchbacked for a couple of levels. Then when he reached the 9th level of DD the grotesque hump on his back would split open to reveal the newly formed wings. In my head it was this odd mixture of the gory and disgusting with the glorious and triumphant. Sadly, the campaign didn't last past my 3rd level of DD.

[ShadowFighter15]

What about the wings? I played a dragon disciple for a while and was planned to describe him as gradually becoming sort hunchbacked for a couple of levels. Then when he reached the 9th level of DD the grotesque hump on his back would split open to reveal the newly formed wings. In my head it was this odd mixture of the gory and disgusting with the glorious and triumphant. Sadly, the campaign didn't last past my 3rd level of DD.

Probably won't go that far and I've got two ideas. The first relies on me having plenty of ranks in bluff by then and involved having them grow quickly and painfully, (my character would be used to pain by this point, but he can always ham it up) before tearing out the back of his shirt as he leans back, wings spreading out dramatically. At which point he starts cackling insanely. I figure with a good bluff roll I'd empty the entire tavern (and get us kicked out of town, but it'd be worth it).

The second one is just to have them grow in overnight and spend the first little while the next morning accidentally knocking people and objects over with them. Jens (the group's halfling rogue) and Chase (a gnomish bard) had better watch their heads that day unless they want a faceful of wing.

I've already worked out his reaction to the scales. Quiet morning, very peaceful, but the party is woken by a single, clear cry.

"SWEET MERCIFUL GODS; WHAT THE HELL'S HAPPENED TO MY SKIN?!?!"