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wormwood
2009-04-07, 10:57 AM
I'm bored at work and pondering on ways to make a sorcerer more versatile. I know that the Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and Shades spells are indispensible in this regard. Any other suggestions to get more bang for your buck out of the sorcerer (feats, spells, items, etc.)? I'm mostly just curious, so any sources are good and at any level.

lsfreak
2009-04-07, 11:44 AM
Arcane Preparation -> Mage of the Arcane Order from Complete Arcane. Two feats of questionable value (Arcane Prep metamagic stuff if you use it a lot or want something Quickened, Cooperative Spell is great if your DM lets you Leadership cheese), but you gain access to every arcane spell and 2 metamagic feats if you go all the way through. Even 2 levels can potentially be worth it, because it gets you access to all those 1-3rd level utility spells that aren't worth actually learning, and second level gets you the first metamagic feat.

Runestaffs from MIC. Give you access to the spells in the staff 3/day for each spell, and they use your regular spell slots rather than staff charges. A lot cheaper than a regular staff (regular staff with 4th, 3rd, 2nd level utility spells costs just under 16000gp, runestaff costs 9000gp)

ericgrau
2009-04-07, 12:10 PM
Just pick the general purpose spells that people like to get for wizards and call it a day. You have just as much or more room than the wizard; you just can't swap them out that's all. I've even done this in one extremely versatile sorcerer character. The shadow spells are a weak trap. Spontaneous metamagic helps a little too. A variety of low level scrolls helps both wizards and sorcerers. Being ready for anything by using the all-purpose spells, having more different ones actually prepared (not in some book you can't access during a fight), and continuing to have them even after casting them means the sorcerer is usually more versatile. The biggest obstacle to sorcerer versatility is an ill-informed player.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-07, 12:32 PM
Lesser Wish and a couple well chosen summons for the monsters SLAs works wonders, also a level of Sandshaper from Its-Dry-Outside gives a good big list of servicable stuff, summons, BC and self buffs.

Toliudar
2009-04-07, 12:45 PM
My use and enjoyment of the shadow conjuration spells had nothing to do with in-combat usage, and everything to do with utility outside of it. Given access to splats, you can do a LOT of different things with those spells.

The heritage feats that add spells known (not just to spell lists) can be a great and flavourful way to boost your versatility.

Keld Denar
2009-04-07, 12:48 PM
I like Draconic Heritage (usually Copper or Black) + Draconic Breath. That totally negates the need to every learn a blasty spell, since every spell slot you have can be turned into 2d6 / spell level. Then you can take various Metabreath spells like Blinding Breath, Dispelling Breath, etc, and add utility/disable to your blasting.

Consumes spell slots a little faster than normal, but hey, your a Sorcerer, its what you do!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-07, 12:57 PM
The shadow spells are a weak trap.They really aren't. Things like Phantom Steed aren't worth spending a slot on as a Sorcerer, but the Shadow spells give you access to about 6 of those things, so they are definitely worth the slot. Wind Wall protects you from arrows whether or not it's really there, Contingency still works, and Mage Armor still gives you +4 AC. It's like Chain Spell, it's only weak if you cast at an enemy.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-07, 01:01 PM
Really, Sorcerers don't sacrifice much versatility. You see, about 80% of Batman Wizard's spells per day are exactly the same, because they are so useful in combat. The other 20% are for things like the 'Bat Shark Repellent', situationally useful, but otherwise not critical on a day-to-day basis.

Spells like Glitterdust are handy to have because they are versatile. First off, it's a Save or Loose, targeting Will save, and one of two spells that target Will that is NOT a Mind-Affecting (Slow being the other one in Core that I can think of off hand).

Spells like Enervation are handy because it is vicious, does not allow a saving throw, and are your staple 'blast' type spells. Only instead of doing damage, they cripple opponents. Unless it is an Undead, Enervation is going to seriously hurt their ability to both hurt you and defend themselves against your next spell.

Spells like Stinking Cloud are handy because it is a 'Save or Loose', that is an area effect. You can hit multiple opponents with it, if you are careful.

Spells like Sonic Orb are handy for consistent and reliable damage output. Sometimes, you just want to blow something up, and Sonic Orb is good at the job. Single target, so no friendly fire, no SR, and almost nothing is resistant to Sonic damage.

So you can get everything you really need, if you are careful about which spells you pick up. Having said that, Mage of the Arcane Order is a good PrC for a Sorcerer who, on occasion, needs some Bat Shark Repellent and doesn't have a scroll on hand.

Crow
2009-04-07, 01:12 PM
Pick up the Heighten Spell metamagic feat. Usually it is not a great feat, but for Sorcerers, it allows them to use their lower-level save-or-X spells up into higher levels without sacrificing effectiveness. This saves the Sorcerer some of his higher level "spells known" choices since he doesn't need to pick up new save-or-X's if he doesn't want to.

ericgrau
2009-04-07, 02:31 PM
They really aren't. Things like Phantom Steed aren't worth spending a slot on as a Sorcerer, but the Shadow spells give you access to about 6 of those things, so they are definitely worth the slot. Wind Wall protects you from arrows whether or not it's really there, Contingency still works, and Mage Armor still gives you +4 AC. It's like Chain Spell, it's only weak if you cast at an enemy.
Unless interacted with and disbelieved. Like when they attack your mage armor. Most good spells you should just take the real version of to be safe, and so-so or heavily situational ones like wind wall you can put on an emergency scroll... if rarely used. If not, you learn it. Or pick up gloves of arrow snatching and get protection from the start without blowing a round.

They have their uses, I suppose, but they fall quite short as a replacement for the real thing. I'd consider spells like phantom steed a minor benefit to have at all. If I made heavy use of it then I'd just get the actual spell and make more horses for the whole party. Rather than blowing that many 4th level spell slots when I have a lot of good 4th level spells I like to use. Or blowing a 4th level slot just for an unreliable mage armor, for that matter. If anything I'd get the greater shadow spells for things too expensive to put on scrolls, and even then it'd only be for rarely used effects. Anything I want to use often and have it work well without blowing all my high level slots would get the real spell.

Crow
2009-04-07, 02:37 PM
A lot of the "advice" offered around here assumes a completely compliant DM. There are a lot of issues regarding the exact nature of how the Shadow-Evo and Conjuration spells work with certain spells, so if you intend on using them to gain access to contingency and wind wall and such, you had best run it by your DM and get his ruling on how they would run it first.

valadil
2009-04-07, 02:45 PM
Get spontaneous metamagic (I prefer the phb2 option) and lots of metamagic. Incantatrix (the 3.5 version is broken but the 3.0 one is merely overpowered) will net you 3 or 4 feats. Make sure you get heighten, as another poster mentioned. What you want to do is take one or two spells of each type. By type I mean, damage, each save, no save, etc. MM them up to fit your situation. If you wanna be cheesy, throw in residual metamagic.

I recently played a character like this and it was my favorite, mechanically speaking. As soon as he hit 4 he was dominating the battlefield. Sculpted grease and/or sculpted color spray were downright brutal. Glitterdust, web, and stinking cloud were obscene too. It helped that I focused in conjuration (you should too!). I kept using heightened versions of those for most of the game and they were always effective. I didn't need anything else to target reflex, fort, or will saves. I grabbed a couple damage spells and empower spell (which is also great on ray of enfeeblement) and a couple battlefield control spells, like fog and walls. What I liked about this character more than a batman wizard is that I could use as much of something as I wanted. I could wall off the battle into 8 separate areas if needed. I didn't have to worry about my 2 daily walls going to the right place.

--edit to add--

If you're looking for a specific build, 6 sorc and 10 incantatrix has just enough room left over for 4 levels of mage of the arcane order, which will let you swap out your slots for any level 6 or lower spell. How much more versatility can you want?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-07, 03:04 PM
Because Sorcerers apply Metamagic on the fly, they have superior tactical flexibility, whereas Wizards have superior strategic flexibility. Use this, and use it hard.

Still and Silent spell are two of the best feats you can pick up. The former lets you do stuff even while tied up, and the latter lets you cast in a Silence area. This prevents Silence (area that doesn't allow save) + something to keep you there (solid fog, forcecage, Entangle, Web...) from screwing you over.

Heighten Spell, as has been mentioned, is also of superior use.

Split Ray is very handy for things like Enervation, Scorching ray, Disintegrate, and more. Two for the price of one at SL +2.

Chain Spell is the ULTIMATE for buffing. Yes, I said buffing, it stinks for damage output. However, imagine hitting your whole party up for a GMW for the cost of a 5th level spell slot. I'd buy that for a dollar feat.

Chronos
2009-04-07, 05:04 PM
and one of two spells that target Will that is NOT a Mind-Affecting (Slow being the other one in Core that I can think of off hand).Plane Shift is (or can be) another Will save-or-suck, and it can also be used in a friendly way, too. Unfortunately, using it offensively requires a touch attack, and as a sorcerer, you probably don't want to be in melee range of most things.

Eldariel
2009-04-07, 05:09 PM
Plane Shift is (or can be) another Will save-or-suck, and it can also be used in a friendly way, too. Unfortunately, using it offensively requires a touch attack, and as a sorcerer, you probably don't want to be in melee range of most things.

Arcane Reach solves that though.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-07, 07:03 PM
Let's see...

Mage of The Arcane Order has already been mentioned.

The Shadow line of spells has already been mentioned.

Limited Wish got a partial mention; however, under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish can duplicate Psychic Reformation, and under Magic-Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can let a Sorcerer change out Spells Known (see the Psychic Reformation Psionic Power in the XPH or the Psionic section of the SRD for details). Available at 14th+.

The Planar Binding line can let you Call the perfect Outsider for the job... but it's pretty much a 13th+ method, it's a hefty investment in spells known, and requires you have a reasonable idea what you're facing.

If you can get them, check out the Dragon Compendium Bloodline feats.

holywhippet
2009-04-07, 08:52 PM
Plane Shift is (or can be) another Will save-or-suck, and it can also be used in a friendly way, too. Unfortunately, using it offensively requires a touch attack, and as a sorcerer, you probably don't want to be in melee range of most things.

That's what the spectral hand spell is for.

Something to keep in mind about all spellcasters is that spells tend to fall into two categories - a) Useful most of the time. b) Useful on occasion. The sorcerer can stick to learning spells from category a) and use wands/scrolls/potions etc to cover the spells from category b). Hence you don't really miss out on not being able to scribe scrolls as much.

Myrmex
2009-04-07, 09:34 PM
Wouldn't shadow conjured mage armor offer AC against natural & unarmed attacks, and only if the attacker failed a will save? Otherwise, 1/5 of 4 AC is no AC.

Thurbane
2009-04-07, 09:41 PM
Lesser Wish and a couple well chosen summons for the monsters SLAs works wonders, also a level of Sandshaper from Its-Dry-Outside gives a good big list of servicable stuff, summons, BC and self buffs.
Another vote for Sandshaper here. Adds a lot of spells known to your list. Also, the Wild Soul PrC add some extra spells know, as do some of the Heritage feats...

Jack_Simth
2009-04-07, 10:19 PM
That's what the spectral hand spell is for.
Catch: Spectral Hand is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. Plane Shift is a 7th level spell (for a Sorcerer). Good luck with that. It works with Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, and the like, but not Plane Shift. Besides, the duration on Spectral Hand is only 1 minute per level, so unless you have a good idea of when combat starts, you're either spending a standard action on it in battle, or using a 6th level spell slot and some way to Quicken it.

holywhippet
2009-04-07, 11:28 PM
Catch: Spectral Hand is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. Plane Shift is a 7th level spell (for a Sorcerer). Good luck with that. It works with Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, and the like, but not Plane Shift. Besides, the duration on Spectral Hand is only 1 minute per level, so unless you have a good idea of when combat starts, you're either spending a standard action on it in battle, or using a 6th level spell slot and some way to Quicken it.

True. Your other, somewhat risky, option is to send your familiar in to deliver the touch spell. You can make them invisible or something to reduce the odds of your target killing them.

wadledo
2009-04-07, 11:34 PM
Don't forget sandshaper.
You lose a feat and a CL, but you get an absurd number of good spells, many at lower spell slots than normal.
And if you stay in it for a while, you can get some pretty snazy abilities, too. Possibly not worth the CL lost, but hey.

Edit: 11 hour ninja....... >.> <.<

Teron
2009-04-08, 12:04 AM
An issue of Dragon (#333, according to Google) had knowstones, which give you a specific extra spell known simply by being in your possession. I don't remember how they were costed, and by extension how they compare to the MIC's runestaffs (probably not that well, though); even if they're not as cost-effective, though, they may be useful for spells you're likely to need more than three times in a day.

AmberVael
2009-04-08, 12:33 AM
If you can get them, check out the Dragon Compendium Bloodline feats.

I want to emphasize this. If your DM allows this option take it.

Each of these feats will, in the end, give you 9 more spells known. What with the ability of a sorcerer to swap out spells, you can even switch them around if you're dissatisfied with some of them.
They're really worth it for a sorcerer.

Also, the PrC Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror can net you a few more spells known (of your choice, with a few restrictions), and as a sorcerer you really have nothing to lose by going into it. It also gives almost full caster (everything but the last level, if I recall) so its better than Sand shaper in that regard.

Frost Mage from Frostburn also grants a few spells, though the best ones are in the higher levels of the PrC. It has some pretty easy pre-reqs though, and some other interesting benefits.

For Sorcerers I also recommend looking into Reserve Magic feats. If done correctly, you can get an entirely unique effect from one of them- one that you can use repeatedly, in fact. You shouldn't put too much investment into them, but they're worth looking at.

The Fey, Fiendish, and Draconic bloodlines feats from the WotC books can also grant you various other interesting and nifty abilities that can add to your repertoire.

Chronos
2009-04-08, 12:38 AM
Spectral Hand is also another precious spell known slot, and it's hard for a sorcerer to justify spending a slot on a spell that doesn't actually do anything by itself.

sonofzeal
2009-04-08, 12:59 AM
Also, the PrC Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror can net you a few more spells known (of your choice, with a few restrictions), and as a sorcerer you really have nothing to lose by going into it. It also gives almost full caster (everything but the last level, if I recall) so its better than Sand shaper in that regard.
I have a player using this PrC right now, so I'm pretty familiar with it, and man is it nuts. I've houseruled it to 4/5 progression (loses casting at 1 and 6), but it's still pretty solid. I highly suggest that change, if you're looking for balance.

BobVosh
2009-04-08, 01:05 AM
Killer gnome build is great for sorcerers.

Silent image helps replace a lot of your spells with the schnanigans with it.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=290914

Myrmex
2009-04-08, 01:11 AM
Killer gnome build is great for sorcerers.

Silent image helps replace a lot of your spells with the schnanigans with it.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=290914

Better for a focused specialist wizard, though. Same number of spell slots, almost as much spontaneity, and no full round casting times heightening spells.

Thurbane
2009-04-08, 04:51 PM
Also, the PrC Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror can net you a few more spells known (of your choice, with a few restrictions), and as a sorcerer you really have nothing to lose by going into it. It also gives almost full caster (everything but the last level, if I recall) so its better than Sand shaper in that regard.
Probelm with Fiend Blooded is the prereq of Knowledge (The Planes) 8, which means if you're pure Sorcerer, you'll be 13th level before you can enter - unless the DM handwaves the prereq or you pull some hokey-pokey with feats to get KtP as a class skill. It's a pretty idiotic requirement for a PrC which is intended for Sorcerers - the sample NPC in the book clearly does not qualify...once again, WotC proof readers = fail.

Fizban
2009-04-08, 07:31 PM
You can almost pull it off with the planar sorcerer substitution levels in the Planar Handbook, but you need a lot of bonus skill points at the level you take it. Assuming you want in after 6th level, you need at least 4 skill points at each level: 5 normal levels plus 3 starting divided by two is 4 ranks cross class, plus another 4 when you dump all your level's points into it on the substitution level. Or you could blow a feat on...Open Minded I think it was, for 5 extra skill points, but you're still jumping through a hoop that shouldn't be there.

Why is the Fiendblooded being nerfed? You get 1 extra spell known per two levels and some not-particularly spectacular class features. Taking it as soon as possible is actually a bad idea because you waste the extra spells on lower level spells than if you waited (assuming the standard theoretical 20th level goal).

Chronos
2009-04-08, 07:37 PM
Why is the Fiendblooded being nerfed? You get 1 extra spell known per two levels and some not-particularly spectacular class features.Note that those extra spells known can be from any list, so long as they're from the appropriate schools. That makes it a good bit more worthwhile.

JoshuaZ
2009-04-08, 09:27 PM
Also, if you are willing to be evil consider taking Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis. This feat gives you 10 extra spells known although they are pretty specialized. In order for most of them to be useful, you need to impant a necrotic cyst in the desired target which requires a 2nd level spell and a touch attack. However, you get a variety of useful spells such as version of dominate person that aren't mind-affecting and require fortitude rather than will saves. There's a 7th level spell that of the spells you get that let's you get a permanent dominate effect. Very useful for the evil or neutral sorcerer.